Tangle - Reader Interview, Part V: Rick McPherson

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

Rick is a 61-year-old maintenance technician at a Steel Mill in Butler, Pennsylvania. He is married with four children aged 40 to 28 and three grandchildren. He's a 35+ year union member and a lifelong Democrat who considers himself left-leaning but disenfranchised by both parties. In our conversation, we talk about the pros and cons of unions, what the politics of his steel mill are, what he thinks of Biden, and the way his world has changed in the last 20 years.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Zosha Warpeha. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and we are now at part five, fifth and final Tangle Reader interview. And today on the show, we have Rick McPherson from Butler, Pennsylvania. Rick, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks, Isaac. Appreciate the opportunity and look forward to speaking with you. Yeah, I'm so much for being here. Thanks, Isaac. Appreciate the opportunity and look forward to speaking with you. Yeah, I'm really excited for this one. So as we've been doing on this, I totally invented this series on the fly. It still doesn't have a name five episodes in, but I'm trying to formulate some kind of format. And what I've come up with is just reading to our listeners what you put in your form when you submitted for the interview, just so everybody comes in on level playing field. So I'm going to read really quickly what you wrote, just so everyone has a little taste of who you are,

and then we'll jump right in. You said, I am 61 years old. I'm a maintenance technician at a steel mill in Butler, Pennsylvania. I'm married with four children ages 40 to 28 and three grandchildren. I am a 35 plus year union member and a lifelong Democrat. I consider myself left leaning, but I must add that I feel disenfranchised by both parties. I love your newsletter and keep up the good work. Thank you for the compliment. parties. I love your newsletter and keep up the good work. Thank you for the compliment. So look, let's start with the gig. How did you end up as a maintenance technician in Butler, Pennsylvania? Well, our facility, our plant has been here, I think, since 1928. And it's gone through a couple of different iterations, different corporations over the years. We were originally formed in the independent union originally started in 1933. And then in 2003, when the company called AK Steel took over, we affiliated at that time with United Auto Workers. So, you know, when I started my working career, it was in construction, you know, just kind of building houses and concrete and whatever, just general construction in the area. And then fortunately, I had an opportunity to get into the building

trades union locally here with the Laborers International Union. I worked as a hod carrier or a bricklayer's helper for about 13 years and just got to a point in my life age-wise, and that's physically demanding work, the masonry, the laboring in general, and I had an opportunity to go, you know, from the building trades into the industry. And fortunately, at that time, the local mill was hiring, and we decided to take advantage of that opportunity. And it's, it's been great ever since for the last 23 years. So I don't regret, yeah, I don't regret any of it, you know, but so but, yeah, organized labor has been a big part of our lives for better than three decades. My entire working life has been, you know, about organized labor

and all the good things that that brings for myself and my family and the community. Yeah, that, that is a big chunk of the questions that I have for you actually about that, because it's, we've written so much about it in Tangle, about the labor movement, where it is, some of the strikes that have been going on, some of the protests, unions in general. I also should say, I mean, as somebody who went to school in Western Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh, I went to the University of Pittsburgh. I mean, to sit down with a lifelong union member at a steel mill from Butler, Pennsylvania, is pretty much, that's some legendary stuff in Western PA.

So it's really cool to have you here for this interview. And I guess, you know, first things first, I mean, let's talk about that. Why do you want to be part of a union as a worker? And, you know, in your firsthand experience, what kind of benefits have you seen from that? Because I think it's a really interesting piece of the puzzle for somebody who's sort of been there on the front lines of it. Yeah, I was kind of thinking about that, you know, before this conversation with you, and probably the biggest thing for me that organized labor belonging to a union does for me, I think actually for all the members, is it provides us with a voice, you know, and I think that, you know,

that's not given enough credit when we're talking about organized labor and belonging to union in general. You know, everybody tends to go right to the pay and the benefits and the other, you know, things that are involved with belonging to union, you know, obviously the community and you know, the leverage that we have. But for me, it's about having a voice, you know, in the workplace and being able to, you know, have some say in the conditions and, you know, the working environment which we participate in. So, you know, that's my number one thing about, you know, my number one benefit of belonging to a labor organization or being a union member for all these years. How do you think your day-to-day would look different if the steel mill didn't have a union?

I mean, what about your life as an employee do you think would be different than it is right now? Well, I don't know that it would be drastically different. But what we have, what the bargaining agreement gives us is a protection. We are not at-right workers, right? So we have a bargaining agreement that protects us. So if the employer violates provisions of our agreement, then we have a grievance procedure. We have a recourse to go in front of an arbitrator and state our case. And then, you know, I guess it just it gives us protection that at right employees don't have. So, you know, just that sense of security with knowing that I have a bargaining

agreement, you know, and a full body membership and behind me to support me against inscrupulous management personnel, if you will. You know, and that's not to say that all all managers are bad. You know, we kind of we need each other to to exist or to make money for things to go well at our facility. But you always have bad apples, you know. But the fact that we have an agreement, it does protect us and it does give you a sense of security knowing that they can't mess with me the way that they would mess, you know, with other individuals. Possibly, you know, if somebody looks at you sideways or a boss doesn't like you personally for some reason or another, then there are ways that, you know, you find yourself out on the street, unfortunately. So just those protections, I think, do.

And a lot of times we take that for granted. I don't like to say that, but, you know, you get complacent with the fact that we have an agreement as well that both parties have to adhere to. One of the things that I love doing in my work and a lot of these interviews that I do with people who are in the political space is I often ask them, you know, if I'm interviewing somebody who is a pro-life advocate, I'll say something like, I'm curious if there's an argument from the pro-choice side that you actually find particularly compelling or one that you struggle to reckon with. So I'm curious from your perspective, like, do you see downsides to the unions ever? Do you feel like you ever run into arguments

that are sort of anti-union or anti-labor organization that are resonant for you at all? I'm going to say no, but at the same time, you know, I'm not going to say that, you know, there are times when behaviors not necessarily go unpunished, but the punishment may not fit what the action was of a member, you know. And I'm not going to give any examples, but there are times when the protection of the bargaining agreement, I don't want to say is abused, but might not fit how egregious an offense was by a member, you know, and sometimes if, you know, like myself, I'm a relatively long standing member, 23 years. So if I if I would do something, and it would be pretty bad, and I might get discharged, or maybe I get an extended amount of time off, say a week or a month, something like that. And just due to the fact that I've been there as long as I have, and if I don't have any other violations on my work record, then arbitrators are going to rule favorably for people like me, you know, even though what I did may have been just cause for

the employer to say, hey, this is wrong what this guy did. He needs this time off to change his behavior. But, you know, we're going to we're going to follow our agreements and we're going to go to arbitration. And like I said, if even if it's worse than what it would normally be, then an arbitrator is probably going to roll in my favor, given the circumstances surrounding the length of my employment and the work history during my employment. So, yeah, I mean, there are times when I can see the other side, but for the most part, no. can see the other side, but for the most part, no. I'm curious, I mean, in the last 23 years, how you've seen this industry change. I mean, pretty much every president I can remember in my lifetime at some point has come to Pennsylvania and spoken about the state of the steel mills and the factories. And what have you been seeing, you know, over the last two decades?

Probably more than anything else, Isaac, is the productivity. I mean, when I started at the Butler Works, we had almost 2,000 members. You know, today we're down to half that and we're still making the same amount of steel, you know, tonnage, half a million, three quarters of a million tons come out of the out of the butler work with half as many people. has increased so dramatically that it's just unbelievable. And some of that is due to technological advances, but much of it really isn't. And, you know, people might wonder, how is that possible? Well, you know, there was some dead weight, obviously, that was cut off, but for the most part, people just kind of picked up the pace a little bit or whatever. So we're performing, you know, maybe a job and a half or even two jobs than we were before. And while we have had some monetary increases over that time, it's not kept up with inflation or the productivity increases that the company has benefited from.

the company has benefited from. So that and, you know, the environmental aspect of what the corporation does has also gotten better. You know, there's been issues with the water and the air. And the company has, I believe, made great strides in addressing the issues that are involved with the environment. Not that it was bad to begin with, but there's certainly conscience of it. And they do a pretty good job of making sure that the atmosphere and the earth are as clean as they can be, given the fact that we do make steel. It's not a pretty industry. The productivity thing strikes me because when I think of that, I do sort of imagine that it's a result of kind of

technological advances. What does that literally look like in a factory, people picking up the pace? I mean, is that coming from the top down where you guys are having goals set at a higher and higher rate per individual in terms of what your output has to be? Or is that just everybody understanding the pressures of the industry and that they could get laid off? Pretty much the latter of those two. Yeah, I don't know. We are a specialty steel manufacturer. So we have a niche in the market. There aren't very many other. As a matter of fact, I think we are the only domestic facility that makes the steel that we manufacture. So, you know, we don't worry too much about the layoffs or, you know, losing our jobs because of, you know, product demand or what have you.

you know, is the corporation cuts jobs, cuts assignments, and it just kind of gets picked up or morphed, you know, the other team members, if you will, kind of absorb the work that was being performed by the other team member who's no longer there, good, bad, or indifferent. And all that stuff is subject to provisions that are incorporated in our bargaining agreement. You know, we have provisions in our bargaining agreement that address issues like productivity. And if, you know, if I'm not performing more tasks than what I was performing, you know, previously, then I can go to the grievance procedure to say, hey, the company, this is too much. This is more than what we bargained for. And so there is a process by which we can go to an arbitrator and say, Mr. Arbitrator, look,

this is what we signed up for initially. And now this is where we're at today. We just want our cut. The company's making more money based off our effort. And so we think that we should share in that. We don't think that that's asking a whole lot. Where does the steel go that you guys are producing in Butler, Pennsylvania? Typically, the steel that we produce is used in electrical transformers. So, you know, here in western Pennsylvania, because we're an older community, right? You know, on every other telephone pole going down the street, there's a bucket, a gray bucket that sits on that on the top of that pole. on the top of that pole and inside of that bucket there's layers of very thin uh silicon steel that is used to transform high power it comes from the generators out wherever central pennsylvania it comes to butler and then it goes into that transformer and what comes out of that transformer goes into your home so it it reduces the amount of it lowers the voltage from what it is from coming from the main power line into the power line that comes into your home.

So we make all the all the layers of the thin silicon steel that are inside those transformers, primarily what our main product is. transformers, primarily what our main product is. And, you know, of course, with, you know, there's been a lot of talk over the past few years about the infrastructure and upgrading and, you know, we, the electric vehicle market, we believe is, you know, going to be, create, I don't know, a windfall is quite the right word for what we're going to see out of it. I know that certainly our research and development people have been working on, you know, product that'll be used in the motors of these, you know, electric vehicles. So hopefully, you know, we can benefit from the advancements in the technology of automobiles and trucks as well.

And as a maintenance technician in one of these factories, what is your day-to-day look like? I mean, what are you specifically actually doing? Typically, when our facility is running, we're, you know, more of just a maintain. We have daily routine practices that we do every shift. And then, you know, there's, there's other odds and ends that, you know, we do while the, while the mill's running, that can kind of help us prepare for when the mill goes down. And then, you know, we, you know, when the, when the facility goes down, like for example,

our section in the mill runs about 15 turns a week. In any given week, there are 21 turns. There's three turns in a day times seven days in a week. It's a 21 turn rotation, but our facility only runs maybe 14 or 15 turns. So that gives us six or eight turns on the weekends typically that that's when the maintenance staff kind of jumps into action and goes you know fixes what's the issues that are wrong or whatever breaks you know what when stuff breaks or you know our our mill our facility where i'm at is 1958 is when it was put in so things break all the time pipes pipes, wiring, structure, you know, and we're just constantly in the process of maintaining that equipment.

obviously Pennsylvania just had a pretty wild election season I'm curious what that was like for you someone in Western PA in a steel mill in a union did you a you know hear from or felt like you heard from candidates like Fetterman and Oz directly? And B, I mean, what was it like on the ground? What did you think the, you know, in like the place where you work, are most people tend to be Democrats because they're union members. And it was just like, they're going to punch the ticket for Fetterman because he's a union guy. How did that look for you guys? Yeah. I mean, just kind of to address the first part of that, you know, we were so inundated here. I can speak for myself, but I'm thinking that this applies to the majority of people as well, that, you know, by the time a month prior rolls around, something really dramatic would have to happen. And here in Pennsylvania, you know, it pretty much did with debate.

You know, when you you watch the debate, it was like, wow, you know, I don't I don't know if that really changed the mind of any voters, but it really had the potential to do so. I mean, if you if you saw the debate. So, yeah, no. So we get a lot of stuff from from both both candidates, both parties. As far as on the ground goes, union members are no longer as strongly democratic as they once were. And I could maybe go into some of the things that reasons for that. But there's just me personally, I just think it's a manifestation of the fact that we don't have as strong a unions as we did when the affiliation with the Democrats was what it was. Okay, so today we have maybe 10%, 12%, 8%, somewhere in there of the private sector is represented by a bargaining unit versus in its heyday, it might have been above 50%, I think, at the time. So union membership obviously is

way, way down. And workers' issues, our members' issues are way more diverse than just their work. Now, for me personally, everything I have today materially and even intrinsically, you know, I could probably say that as well, goes to the fact that I've had a good job all of my life and I've been represented by a bargaining unit all of my working life as well. So to me, when I go to the polling place and I consider the candidate that I'm going to vote for, for me, it boils down to which one of these politicians, candidates is going to fit best or help me the best in relation to my job. And so historically, and even today, I believe that the Democrats still do that better than the Republicans. But for our members, that is their work and their time at their place of employment is not nearly as important as what it once was. I think especially for the younger generation. And I think mostly, Isaac, the reason for that is because the history has been lost, you know, where we came from and,

you know, how we got here and where we are today. That's not taught, I don't believe in any of the schools anymore. And there's just no longer the recognition for what, you know, what unions have done to get all working people to where we are today, not just the union members. So it sounds like part of what you're saying is that you feel like a younger generation of worker that's coming in has less of an understanding of the historical wins that have been brought by unions. And obviously, historically, unions have found more support in the Democratic Party than the Republican Party. So there's just less party allegiance in that sense.

Exactly. Yes. The younger guys. Yeah. Yes. Because there is a lack of knowledge of the history of where we came from and how it is that we have what we have today and how all that came to be. You know, to me, all that matters. And I recognize the history of all that, you know, and I give a lot of the credit to the workers that came before me that did what they had to do to make sure that it would be there for me today. And there's just not that appreciation or understanding of that, but mostly by the younger members. And so therefore, I don't know, again, I think that we've gotten complacent or take for granted the things that we have that are provided for in our bargaining agreement that many, many, many, you know, 80, 90% of the rest of

the workforce don't have. I wish we could do a better job of enlightening our own members, actually, let alone the general public. I guess I'm curious, too, do you find, you know, when you talk about your voting process, it sounds like very clear the one-to-one relationship between what's happening in your work life you know, voters in a steel mill to the Republican Party because some things now matter more to them than just what wins the labor union had? Yeah, there's there's no question about it. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if I'm going to get this right or not. Absolutely. I don't know if I'm going to get this right or not, but we had an old leader that, you know, would say, hey, when you come through, when you come through to the gate, you leave all that other stuff at the gate. And then when you come through the gate, what's important here is the fact that you're here, you know, you're in the workplace. And the reason, the thing that brings us all together here is our work. And the reason that the thing that brings us all together here is our work. So as a group, we should we should take that to the polling place as well, because that's what brings us all together is our work.

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you know, our retirement security, all the things that we have, the protections that we have, the grievance system itself, you know, the fact that I do have recourse if, you know, the company violates the provisions of my employment or the bargaining agreement. That stuff has gotten lost with a lot of that I blame on social media. You know, I really myself personally, I point to the social media as being really the influencer of our membership, the men and women that, you know, I associate with on a daily basis. It's just as a side note, I don't do any of that. You know, I'm a Tristan Harris guy, right? Yeah, if you're familiar, right? Yeah. And when I say that name, my fellow co-workers wouldn't even know, you know, there might be a few that know the social dilemma, but not really because they can't separate themselves from the social media. take a poll, a straw poll in your steel mill, and your bet is that, you know, you got you have

there's more pro Trump or pro MAGA support or whatever you want to call it, then pro Democrat, pro labor union support? I don't know. I mean, if the poll was secret, it might be half or even a little bit better for the for the pro union side. But the biggest voices come from the other side. So, you know, because it's difficult to be the dissenting voice in the room. You know what I mean? So when you're in a room and there's only a, there might be a half a dozen or 10 people in there and six of them are, you know, MAGA and two of them are like myself, maybe one other guy or

Democrats or pro-union that want to talk about working people's interests. And then the other two might just be non-voters of the out of the equation totally, then it's kind of it's hard to buck City Hall, I guess, for, you know, lack of a better term when when you're outnumbered like that. But secretly, I think most people would would probably put a checkmark by, hey, you enjoy the fact that you have these health insurance benefits. Do you enjoy the fact that you have a pension, you know, paid vacations, paid holidays, you know, all the things that we have that we bargained for, not only us, but our forefathers. That's why those people are there, right? So I would certainly think that they would, you know, recognize that, you know, in deference to whatever the other

issues are, I really don't even keep track of that other stuff. What did you think of Donald Trump's ascendance and his presidency? I mean, a lot of, you know, I think sort of the media motif of a Western Pennsylvania steel mill worker is like Donald Trump was speaking to the grievances that people like you had about where the country was going and what was happening to a lot of the factories in the Midwest and the Rust Belt. And I mean, do you did you have mixed feelings about him? Did you have? Honestly, Isaac, I think Donald Trump came at the right time because, you know, you'll remember that, you know, back in the Obama years, we had the Tea Party, right? And so the Tea Party was starting to come to power a little bit. And

those same sort of thoughts and ideas were, you know, becoming more prevalent. And, you know, with President Obama, you know, 2010 was a big election that, you know, really made a big, or actually 2008 was a big deal. 2012 was a big deal also. But the Tea Party was, you know, they were there, you know, they were for real force. And they kind of went away a little bit because President Obama was as strong as he was and charismatic. And he was a good speaker and all those other things that, you know, really he was. But underneath it all, the Tea Party, they were just kind of simmering, you know, the pot was just simmering a little bit. And then along comes Donald Trump and he taps right into that.

Donald Trump and what he had to do in his ascension was the fact that there was already a base there. You know, the base was already there. Trump didn't start this whole thing. It was it was simmering all along. He just magnified it so much. My wife and I were in Florida at the time in 2016. And we were at Disney. We were staying off site, but that's what we were there doing. And when I heard the results from Florida, I knew then, you know, and that was early in the whole process of Florida. You know, results come through and I was like, oh, my goodness, this is not going to be good. This is not going to come out well for, you know, Hillary Clinton.

I don't know that Hillary was the greatest candidate at the time either. But regardless, she she was our candidate. And things just kept going and going and going. And then finally, when when the election was obvious that Donald Trump was going to win, I was just beside myself. And it, you know, it led to a real situation between me and my wife because she was a Trump person. You know, she's been a Republican all of her life. And fortunately, she's reasonable and independent minded. You know, we've been able to get past our political differences, you know, in our married life. But that on that day, it was it was was ugly because I could not see Donald Trump being the

president of the United States ever. I think history is going to do its part, but it's going to take a little while before all this kind of comes to fruition with the Trump presidency and just all the things that he brought to our democracy. I am fascinated by the split spouses politically. That is, I think, first of all, a dying breed in this country. I mean, there's so much polling out there now showing, at least for people, you know, in their 20s and 30s who are dating that they won't even consider dating people who have different political beliefs than them anymore. I get emails all the time from readers who ask for advice about, you know, talking to a boyfriend or a wife or an uncle or whoever, someone they love, they're really close with, with different political views than them.

You've managed to survive a Trump-Clinton marriage. How did you do it? What give me some tips? You probably know better than I do. Well, I mean, for the most part, I had to swallow my pride. And I mean, that's that's what makes a good marriage anyways. Right. For at least from the male side of it, you know, because I would, we tend to be much more prideful than our wives, you know, and the other issue is my wife's smarter than I am. Oh, yeah. So it made it difficult, you know, you know, we'd be having this discussion and because I'm, I can be so passionate about it, I'd end up getting mad.

I mean, and then she'd just stop talking. And I would realize how ridiculous it was on my part to, you know, not even recognize that she might have an opposing viewpoint that she's entitled to, you know. But fortunately, fortunately, because she's an intelligent, independent woman, we've gotten to 1440 and we've gotten to Tangle. So, you know, neither one of us really we watch the local news, local TV news. And I subscribe to the local, you know, the Pittsburgh Post is that I subscribe to the digital edition. Good for you. I mean, you and the folks over at 1440 are what keep us informed politically for yourself, especially politically. You know, we love it. We'd like the, you know, the both side perspective. And then your take at the end, it's been great for the both of us. And I've kind of settled down a little bit and can speak a little bit more intelligently about the issues and can show her some of the facts where my opinion is based on

this. I always did try to have, you know, fact based opinions when we were having our discussion. I just didn't have a very good way of going about showing that to her, you know. But I think for the most part, you just have to swallow your pride and recognize that, you know, there are reasonable people that have reasonable opinions on the other side that I at least have to recognize rather than just totally dismiss. And we are both disgusted with the anger. dismiss. And we are both disgusted with the anger. There is just so much flat out hatred in the world today, especially in the political world. It's beyond belief at times where, you know, some of these people are just way out there on both sides, on both sides. You know, that's not limited to the, you know, the people on the right. There are extremists on the left as well that are just, I mean, wow, it's crazy. Well, I have to say, I mean, I really, first of all, thank you. I appreciate the kind words about Tangle.

I also, you know, 1440 is a wonderful newsletter that I read every morning. 40 is a wonderful newsletter that I read every morning and I'm happy to, you know, share in the plug for them because I think what they do is so different than us. I don't view them as a competitor, even though they're a news newsletter. They're just really good at speaking in neutral language and giving you the very quick hits about what's going on in the world. And lastly, for subscribing to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, a lot of readers write in and ask me for advice on news consumption. And one of my first responses is always go find your local newspaper and give them your money because local news is dying. It is often more important than the news that you're reading at a national level in terms of what relates to your day-to-day

life. If I could, you know, create a news consumer that would both benefit me and I think be good for the country, it would be, if you want to follow national news, go subscribe to Tangle and then find two or three local news outlets in your area and read them regularly. That's what I do, you know, here in Philadelphia and what I did in New York. And I think it's really important. So kudos to you for that. I'm curious, on the national level, one of the biggest news items that we had recently that we covered in Tangle was the railroad strike. Obviously, a big labor story, a big union story with a relatively controversial ending. You're a Democratic voter, a lifelong union member, I assume somebody who voted for President Biden. And a lot of union workers were pissed. I mean,

we wrote about this in Tangle, at least a lot of railroad workers were pissed that Biden had sort of, quote unquote, intervened in the sense that he asked Congress to resolve the strike and basically force the unions to take the deal that some of the union members did not want to take. How did you view all that? What's your take on how that played out and what the end game was? I'm torn by that because, you know, obviously I recognize where my brothers and sisters were coming from, you know, in the railroad industry. That's, I mean, our work, withholding our work is really the only leverage that we have, right? So if an employer is not treating us properly and we don't have the conditions that we feel that we should have based on what everybody else in our industry has or just based on workers in

general, then we can withhold our services. That's our leverage. Now, that's where the rail workers were at. They were not happy with the agreement that was being offered to them, and they said, hey, that's it. We're going to shut it down. At the same time, I think what was a 1926 or 1928 act provided Congress with the power to do what they did. whatever fragile or not so fragile economy that we have, you know, the rail workers going on strike would be like the longshoremen going on strike, you know, in California or on the East Coast, right? I mean, these people can really affect the lives of our entire GDP. Like I said, I was torn. I was in their dugout rooting for them.

But at the same time, I'm thinking, man, oh, man, this is this could create a real issue for my livelihood, you know, and all of working people across the country. And it was just it was such a time, you know, right before Christmas. And, you know, when when we needed freight, when we needed the railroads to really keep moving, was not a good time. Of course, they would tell you it's the perfect time. You know, the union says there is no better time than right now because that's how they're going to get what, you know, what they're after, what they think is fair. There were a couple of things that I believe could have went better for the workers. Not having any paid days off for illness, that's not a big thing, I don't think. Even Congress, I don't think the compromise was adequate, just in my opinion.

So I side with my brothers and sisters over there, but yet at the same time, I look at the American people and the impact that it would have had on our economy as a whole. And I, you know, I have to recognize that, you know, there's another side to this, you know, even even as even as a good union worker. Rick, we're we're coming up on our 45 minute hour here. You know, I've been trying to give some people a little bit of time at the end. You have, so the, the ear of some Tango listeners and also, you know, an opportunity to, to turn the tables after 45 minutes in the hot seat and put it, put a question to me if you'd like. So I'm going to, I'm going to let you take it away here with, with whatever direction you want to go in. First of all, Isaac, I just want to say thanks. From my own personal point of view and my wife's, my wife, Linda, we both love reading your stuff, and it's been great for us, and we really like it. So keep up the good work, and I appreciate

the opportunity to speak with you today. I have a daughter. My oldest daughter graduated from the University of Pittsburgh. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for you. So, yeah, I mean, so Pitt, you know, hail to Pitt. Yeah, baby. Yeah, strong connection here with the University of Pittsburgh. So, you know, good on you.

And, you know, I hope everything's working out for you in Philadelphia. You know, it seems like you're doing okay. And subscribers are, you know, hopefully, you know, it seems like you're doing okay. And subscribers are, you know, hopefully, you know, the numbers are up or whatever. And if they're not, we'll try to make that better for you. But just some of the things that I wanted to throw out there, I think in today's divided world, some of the things that I think that all of us could probably agree on, think that all of us could probably agree on. First of all, for me, is the money. The money has got to go. You know, the Citizens United decision was just awful. You know, when that happened and it opened the floodgates for corporations, that was just so bad. And I knew

at the time, I said, you know, we can't compete with this. And granted, you know, we have our own PACs and, you know, these committees and whatnot that, you know, we the politicians, where it all came from is even just more baddening, right? I mean, it was people's money. So the money has to go. I mean, I've always been a proponent of, hey, you know what? Use the tax dollars and give each candidate X amount of money and let them. Here you go. That's it. You know, this is what you have the campaign on. Until we get the money out, we're not going to end the corruption, you know, because that's what I see in Washington, D.C. today. It's just it's just a nest of, you know, corrupt people. And I don't I think politicians go there, you know, corrupt people. And I don't, I think politicians go there,

you know, elected individuals from our local, you know, jurisdictions go there, well intended. But once they get there, they either play ball or they're done. You know, it's that simple. And as much as I like Nancy Pelosi, and, you know, she's going to be remembered as, you know, one of the greatest women politicians of our time, if not all time, you know, they made a ton of money, a ton of money on the fact that nothing more than the fact that she was in a place and time to be able to take advantage of information that's not available to the rest of us. to be able to take advantage of information that's not available to the rest of us. That's wrong also. You know, the corruption there has to end. They have no ethics in Washington, D.C. You know, all the rest of us around here doing our thing and playing by the rules.

But those people are beyond reproach, it seems like. You know, when you were talking about the Supreme Court having nobody to answer to either, it's just mind boggling as well that that group of people you talk about powerful individuals. I mean, those are the nine most powerful individuals on the planet. You know, you can talk about the president all you want or whoever, but there is no greater power than the Supreme Court of the United States of America. As much as I dislike Mitch McConnell, they did a great job of getting the people in place that are there today. So I've got to give them credit for that. But at the same time, it's not good. The fact that they have no oversight is bad. So the money, the lack of oversight, and I think independence, independent voters. And I have a couple of daughters in this family that are that vote independently.

And I know this goes by state, but the independent voting bloc needs a much larger voice. They need to be recognized. I don't know if they can eventually become a third party or what needs to happen, but the independents do not have the voice that they deserve, because I think there are way more independent voters than, obviously, there's not more than Democrats or Republicans, but the fact that they can't register and vote in the primary as an independent limits their voice and therefore their power. So I think we need to empower independent-minded people in the political arena, you know. And finally, I can go and be a congressman or senator, and when I get I get I can get reelected forever.

You know, we have octogenarian. We have an octogenarian that's in the presidency. Right. And so, I mean, I've walked in Labor Day parades in Pittsburgh with Joe Biden, you know, in Arlen Specter. And people are not young and they do not. They do. And people are not young and they do not. They do. They do not. And they cannot, no matter how hard they try. It's just not possible for them to realize what my 30 year old girls are experiencing in their lives today. And it's just it's crazy. So I think that term limits have a place in our political spectrum as well, you know. So, and honestly, I think those things, I think all those things, both sides could maybe agree on, or we could find some compromise there with those issues. But, you know, that was just my little rant there for what's going on. And God forbid that the independent legislative thing that the Supreme

Court is considering, if that doesn't come out a unanimous no, that there's something wrong with those people for sure who don't dissent from that. That's crazy to think that state legislatures can control the outcome of an election, you know, go literally go against the will of the people when the will of the people is what it's all about. I'm going to be interesting to see that. And you've talked about that. And I don't think it's honestly going to go anywhere, but I mean, you just never know. Yeah, it's true. You never know. I do not think it's going to go anywhere, but I certainly, you know, like I expressed in Tangle, I think it's a pretty scary prospect. Look, that's an excellent rant. I appreciate your preparation there, ready to go. I mean, and I also agree, you agree. I think Citizens United, maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, or I don't even know if it's been 10 years yet, but

it's probably the most divisive of all the items that you listed. I think aside from the money in politics issue, pretty much every other thing you hit on, you can find a large majority cohort of voters. And I think less and less Republicans and conservatives are committed to the idea that, you know, major corporations and big money should be able to have the influence in politics they have. I think all the pros and cons of a candidate and a president like Trump, all the pros and cons aside, I think one of the things he introduced was kind of a new right movement that views that sort of big corporate apparatus of Congress really skeptically, which I think is a good thing, honestly. And I agree with you that it started, you know, during the Tea Party and maybe even earlier than that. But I think it's a it's a

positive that more and more people feel that way But I think it's a it's a positive that more and more people feel that way about some of the big money that's moving around in politics because it's it's scary stuff. So listen, Rick, I could I could listen to your your Yinzer Pittsburgh accent. It's bringing me back home, man. It's it's a it's a pleasure to to chop it up. Fascinating interview. Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for spending an hour with us. Please thank your wife, Linda, as well on my behalf for reading and supporting Tangle. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff we agree and disagree on, and I appreciate her sticking

out with us too. And let's do it again. Next time we move to Pittsburgh, we'll grab a beer or something. I'd love to. Appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks to Pittsburgh, we'll grab a beer or something. I'd love to. Appreciate it. Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much, Isaac, for the opportunity,

and you do a great job. Keep it up. Thank you, man. Have a good one. You do the same. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by Zosia Warpea.

Our script is edited by Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and Bailey Saul. Shout out to our interns, Audrey Moorhead and Watkins Kelly, and our social media manager, Magdalena Bokova, who created our podcast logo. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more from Tangle, check out our website at www.tutaco.com Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown.

When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed.

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