Tangle - RFK Jr. testifies on health agency shakeups.

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

On Thursday, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. testified before the Senate Finance Committee about his efforts to overhaul U.S. health agencies and change federal vaccine policy. The hearing was at times combative, as Senators asked Kennedy about the Trump administration’s firing of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Susan Monarez, subsequent resignations of other CDC leaders, and regulatory changes to Covid-19 vaccine access.Ad-free podcasts are here!To listen to this podcast ad-free, and to enjoy our subscriber only premium content, go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.Take the survey: Do you trust the CDC’s vaccine guidance? Let us know.Disagree? That's okay. My opinion is just one of many. Write in and let us know why, and we'll consider publishing your feedback.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Lindsey Knuth, Kendall White, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking. talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Senate hearing and just broadly the state of the Make America Healthy Again movement, some of the things we've learned recently. I've got a lot of thoughts. I had to break my takeout into 13 different ideas because there's just so much here to chew on. So it's going to be a good one. It's Monday, September 8th. I hope you all enjoy the

great weekend. Before we jump in, I want to give a welcome to some of our new listeners who might have come over from an advertisement. We ran in Pod Save America. America. I'm excited to have you guys here. This is a different kind of political news than you maybe get over there, but I think it's a good one. So we're going to show you how we do it today. And with that, I'm going to send it over to John to break down today's main topic. And then I'll be back with my take. Thanks, Isaac. And welcome, everybody. Hope you all had a wonderful weekend. First, I just want to quickly say thank you so much. to all of you who wrote in and told me about all the things that you're excited for or just did and are still feeling the buzz and energy off of. I wanted to highlight a few of those real quick. Karen in Florida is planning an incredible 50th birthday and 10th anniversary trip. I know how exciting those kinds of things can be.

Just came back from one myself. Kim is doing a cool glass blowing class. That actually sounds really peaceful and terrific and fun. And just really appreciates her husband for making it happen. Longtime newsletter and podcast supporter Greg over in Texas is taking a trip for a friend's birthday to St. Thomas. Melanie is experiencing the joy of sending her first kid off to college and seeing him thrive now with a three-year-old. I mean, I'm very far away from that, but I totally understand the joy that you get from watching that experience. Taylor is an endurance athlete, and she found out about an event where she gets to swim across the Chesapeake Bay.

I wish I had the endurance to like run a mile, but folks, I just wanted to say it's really fun for me. I have yet to write back to everybody. I plan to get to it, but it's great hearing everybody's exciting experiences and stories and gives some great ideas for things to look forward to in the future. And I've got a new question for you today. This one stems from the wedding I'm going to. I'm the best man in my best friend's wedding happening this week. and I've got to write a best man speech, so that's got me thinking.

What is some of the greatest advice that you've ever been given or have given to somebody and maybe made a positive effect on them? I think it'd be really great to hear some advice that's worked out for everybody that we can share on the podcast. So please feel free to write into me, John J-O-N at reetangle.com. Look forward to hearing from you all. And again, thank you so much for supporting each other and supporting this community. and let's remember to bring the best of ourselves to everything we do this week. Even the smallest of gestures can have a great positive impact.

All right, with that, let's read down our quick hits. First up, the U.S. and South Korean governments reached a deal to release South Korean workers who were detained in an immigration raid at a Hyundai automobile factory in Georgia on Thursday. Number two, the Bureau of Labor Statistics announced that non-farm payroll employment increased 22,000 in August, and the unemployment rate was 4.3%, approximately the same as the month prior. Number three, Israel Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the Israeli government was not providing Palestinian detainees with sufficient food and had a responsibility to increase the quantity and improve the quality of their diets.

Separately, six people were killed and 12 others injured in a shooting at a bus stop in Jerusalem. The two attackers identified as Palestinian residents of the West Bank were killed at the scene. Number four, a district judge ruled that the Department of Homeland Security's attempt to revoke temporary protected status for hundreds of thousands of Venezuelan and Haitian migrants was unlawful and cannot proceed. The Trump administration plans to appeal. And number five, Russia conducted its largest drone attack against Ukraine to date, launching approximately 800 drones at cities and towns across the country. At least five people were killed in the strikes. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. appearing before a Senate committee, and it comes nearly a week after he fired the CDC director and a day after Florida

became the first state to eliminate all vaccine mandates. Just a week ago, Kennedy fired the head of the CDC. Today, he defended his actions. That's also why it's imperative that we remove officials with conflicts of interest and catastrophically bad judgment and political agendas. And, sir, you're a charlatan. That's what you are. You're putting America's babies' health at risk, America's seniors' health at risk, all Americans' health at risk, and you should resign. On Thursday, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., testified before the Senate Finance Committee about his efforts to overhaul U.S. health agencies and change federal vaccine policy. was at times combative, as senators asked Kennedy about the Trump administration's firing

of Centers of Disease Control and Prevention Director Susan Menares, subsequent resignations of other CDC leaders, and regulatory changes to COVID-19 vaccine access. For context, on August 27th, the White House announced it had fired Monneres, saying she was not aligned with the president's agenda of making America healthy again. The former director was sworn in roughly one month ago, but reportedly resisted Kennedy's efforts to change vaccine policy and refused Kennedy's request to resign. After her firing, the CDC's chief medical officer and three other high-ranking officials at the agency resigned. In August, the Food and Drug Administration announced that it had authorized a new round of COVID-19 vaccines for the fall, but limited their availability to only certain high-risk groups, such as those with asthma, cancer, and heart conditions.

The precise nature of the changes has caused confusion among some health care providers. as Kennedy said the vaccines would be available for all patients who choose them after consulting with their doctors. Separately, the FDA also announced that it had ended emergency use authorizations for COVID-19 vaccines. At Thursday's hearing, Democrats sharply criticized Kennedy for these changes. Senator Elizabeth Warren, the Democrat from Massachusetts, told the health secretary that he was effectively denying people vaccines by not recommending COVID-19 boosters outside of high-risk groups. Kennedy responded, I'm not going to recommend a product for which there's no clinical data. Senator Ron Wyden, the Democrat from Oregon, also pressed Kennedy about his

reported clash with Manares over vaccine recommendations. Kennedy said that Menares had lied when she claimed he asked her to defer to guidance from his newly appointed immunizations committee. Some Republicans also questioned several of the Health Secretary's recent moves. Senator John Barrasso, the Republican from Wyoming, a physician, and the Senate Majority Whip, said that he had grown deeply concerned by Kennedy's actions, adding, there are real concerns that safe, proven vaccines like measles, hepatitis B, and others could be in jeopardy, and that would put Americans at risk and reverse decades of progress. Senator Bill Cassidy, the Republican from Louisiana, also a physician who cast a critical vote

to confirm Kennedy in February, echoed Senator Elizabeth Warren's comments on COVID-boosters, saying, effectively, we're denying people the vaccine. After the hearing, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt defended Kennedy, saying that he was taking flack because he's over the target and praising him for a commitment to addressing root causes of chronic disease, embracing transparency in government, and championing gold standard science. Today, we'll share Kennedy's and Menares's op-eds about the changes at the CDC, followed by views from the left and the right about Kennedy's Senate testimony, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right. First up, let's start with what Kennedy and Menares are saying. HHS Secretary Kennedy defends his reforms to health agencies, arguing they are critical to restoring public trust in them. Former CDC director Maneras says Kennedy's efforts to undermine federal vaccine policy will harm

all Americans. In the Wall Street Journal, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. wrote about restoring public trust in the CDC. Bureaucratic inertia, politicized science, and mission creep have corroded the CDC's purpose and squandered public trust. That dysfunction produced irrational policy during COVID, cloth masks on toddlers, arbitrary six-foot distancing, boosters for healthy children, prolonged school closings, economy-crushing lockdowns, and the suspension of low-cost therapeutics in favor of experimental and ineffective drugs, Kennedy said. For years, the CDC has presided over rising chronic disease, a true modern pandemic, and since 2014, declining life expectancy. Trust has collapsed. Only one third of health care workers participated in the 2023-20204-fall COVID booster program, and fewer

than 10% of children under 12 received boosters in 2024 and 2025. We have shown what a focused CDC can achieve. When measles flared this year in Texas, we brought vaccines, therapeutics, and resources to the epicenter. The outbreak ended quickly, proving the CDC can act swiftly with precision when guided by science and freed from ideology. The response was neither pro-vax nor antivax. It was effective, Kennedy wrote. The path forward is clear. Restore the CDC's focus on infectious disease, invest in innovation, and rebuild trust through integrity and transparency. In the Wall Street Journal, former CDC director Susan Menera said, I was fired after 29 days because I held the line and insisted on rigorous scientific review. Reporters have focused on the August 25th

meeting where my boss, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., pressured me to resign or face termination. But that meeting revealed that it wasn't about one person or my job. It was one of the more public aspects of a deliberate effort to weaken America's public health system and vaccine protections, Menares wrote. I'm gone now, but that effort continues. One of the troubling directives from that meeting more than a week ago, I was told to pre-approved the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel newly filled with people who have publicly expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric. Those seeking to undermine vaccines use a familiar playbook, discredit research, weakened advisory committees, and use manipulated outcomes to unravel protections that generations

of families have relied on to keep deadly diseases at bay. Once trusted experts are removed and advisory bodies are stacked, the results are predetermined. That isn't reform. It is sabotage, Manera said. Public health shouldn't be partisan. Vaccines have saved millions of lives under administrations of both parties. Parents deserve a CDC they can trust to put children above politics, evidence above ideology, and facts above fear. All right, that is it for what Kennedy and Moneras are saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is critical of Kennedy's comments at the hearing, and many argue

he has already done significant damage to U.S. health policy. Some suggest Republicans who voted to confirm Kennedy are now regretting their decision. In the Atlantic, Nicholas Florko wrote, a different RFK Jr. just appeared before Congress. The hearing was always going to be tumultuous. Although the panel was pitched as an opportunity to hear about President Donald Trump's health agenda, it was a rare opportunity for senators to publicly question the Secretary about his recent attacks on the U.S. vaccination system, Florko said. In the past 200 days, Kennedy has terminated MRNA research grants, stuffed a CDC advisory panel with anti-vaccine activists, and propped up unproven treatments during a deadly measles

outbreak. Last week, he pushed out CDC director Susan Menares, whom Senator, Senator had confirmed to her position less than a month ago. As Kennedy grows bolder in his attacks, Trump has been his greatest enabler. Trump achieved the rapid delivery of vaccines during the pandemic with Operation Warp Speed, yet he seems to be happily cheering Kennedy on in dismantling that legacy, Florko wrote. He might share Kennedy's views, or perhaps he sees the pitfalls of dismissing a secretary who has some of the highest favorability ratings in the cabinet. In Bloomberg, Nia Malika Henderson suggested, Republican senators have a few regrets about confirming Kennedy. Kennedy was full of misinformation and contemptuous of members

of Congress, shouting them down with disdain as they questioned him on the disarray he is brought to the public health agencies. The hearing also showed Republican senators to be too little too late in criticizing the noted anti-vaxxer, who is steadily remaking the American health care system in his own tinfoil hat image, Henderson said. Republicans like Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, a physician, made a costly mistake in backing Kennedy, either out of pure careerism or because he actually believed Kennedy when he claimed he wouldn't do anything to upend the federal government's approach to vaccines. Cassidy, with re-election in mind, tried to appeal to President Donald Trump's ego as he peppered Kennedy with questions about the COVID vaccine,

which is now harder to get because the Center for Disease Control and Prevention has limited who qualifies, Henderson wrote. It was a clever but empty ploy, meant to get Kennedy to acknowledge the importance and effectiveness of COVID vaccines, and perhaps get Trump to rein in the man he promised would go wild on health. All right, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is mixed on Kennedy's recent actions, with some praising him for taking on entrenched health care interests. Others criticize Kennedy for seeming to prioritize ideology over science. In Red State, the blogger Strafe wrote about the battle lines forming around Kennedy's

vaccine policy. To say the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is in a state of turmoil right now is to grossly understate the situation. The same political activist employees who determined that a cloth mask could stop a virus and that a million people engaging in rioting was not an infection risk are fighting Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s agenda every step of the way, Strafe said. Secretary Kennedy's skepticism about the current childhood vaccine schedule is pretty well known. I think Kennedy has a strong point.

Though each of the childhood vaccines may be safe and effective, we have no idea what the collective impact of about 20 vaccines does on a very immature immune system in the first six months. You can be in favor of vaccines, and I'll match my military shot record with anyone's, and still not be convinced that vaccinating kids for diseases they are unlikely to encounter is a good idea. You can also have doubts about the rationality of bombarding a child's immune system with a wide array of vaccines being good medicine, stray for it. The very fact that so many people are screaming so loudly about Kennedy's move on childhood vaccines indicates to me that the

pain being felt is in their pocketbook and not by patients. The New York Post editorial board said RFK Jr's Senate ravings prove he won't bring sanity back to public health. Kennedy came off as a paranoid cooque connecting red strings on a white board. When Senator Bernie Sanders, no fan of the pharmaceutical industry himself, pressed him on his criticism of major medical organizations that disagree with him on vaccines, Kennedy rave that they were bought and paid for by Big Pharma, the board wrote. The CDC and other agencies direly need to reemphasize science-backed thinking

to rebuild their resistance to the scandalous politicization that marked their Biden-era work. But Kennedy isn't advocating sensible reform. He wants to burn down the public health apparatus and rebuild it in his image to push his anti-science beliefs. Former CDC director Susan Menares claims that she got axed last week because she wouldn't pre-approved recommendations from RFK Jr.'s newly refilled vaccine advisory committee, which Kennedy denies. We may never know who said of the story is true, yet Kennedy clearly is on the warpath to

purge the public health apparatus of any person, policy, or idea at odds with his warped world. view, the board said. America needs agencies like HHS and CDC moving toward a sane center where decisions are based on data-informed evidence. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take. All right, that is it for the left and the writer's hang, which brings us to my take. So as I was watching the Kennedy testimony, I quickly realized this topic spans too much ground for a take focused on any one thing. So here are 13 thoughts about the state of Maha, make America healthy again, the CDC, the FDA, and Kennedy's testimony. Number one, I've never been an outright Kennedy Jr. supporter, but when he first announced he was running for president as an independent, I defended him, writing that the dismissal of RFK Jr. as little more than some rabid anti-vaxxer says more about

the corporate media's laziness and group think than it does about him as a person, adding that the label as an anti-vaxxer was mostly unimportant and arguing that I was aligning with his view on the fundamental way American government was failing so many people. Of course, this was long before his name was floated as HHS Secretary, where the Make America Healthy Again movement took its name, but the corporate media's criticisms of him have all aged better than mine. The anti-vaccine label was accurate, and his vaccine stances have proven really, really important. Number two, by now, with the benefit of 2020 hindsight, we should all be able to understand the damage public health agencies have done to their reputations. Irrespective of your feelings about Kennedy, we can't pretend CDC guidance was consistent or defensible as the agency has admitted,

or that COVID-19 vaccine mandates weren't disruptive. Telling people that they have to put a new and unknown drug into their body to participate in a normal society is understandably going to cause pushback. Doing so in the ham-handed way these agencies did with unfulfilled promises and poor public messaging gives us what we have now, a lot of distrust. Number three, COVID is no longer an emergency, so ending the emergency authorization of COVID-19 vaccines make sense. But failing to replace it with another access plan for those who need booster shots to protect themselves, for the immunocompromise in elderly, is a huge mistake. As columnist Bethany Mandel put it, mandates and social coercion during the pandemic took options away from families. Now, Kennedy has done the same thing, only in reverse. What was once an

overreach of coercion has now been replaced with an overreach of restriction, end quote. Number four, I personally stopped taking the COVID-19 vaccine boosters after the original shots, and after I got the virus several times and my infections got less and less serious. I'm pretty young and pretty healthy, so I don't worry about COVID much more than a cold anymore. But that's just me. For people like my mom, who just survived her third bout of breast cancer and is still getting treatment, a booster provides important protections against serious COVID infections. The conservative radio host, Eric Erickson, tweeted about his wife having stage 4 lung cancer

and now being unable to get the vaccines, which actually helped keep her alive. Kennedy just made life harder for all of these people. Number five, a number of Republican senators very clearly do not want Kennedy to be the head of HHS, but are too scared of Trump or Trump's base to do anything about it. This is not a healthy state of affairs. Number six, we don't know exactly how many lives the COVID-19 vaccine saved, partly because a lot of people died with COVID, but not necessarily from COVID, which means counting deaths and thus estimating prevented deaths is really messy. We do know that places with lower vaccination rates had much higher death rates from COVID, not just in the U.S., but globally, too. The politicization of vaccine acceptance led to red-blue divides and COVID outcomes, where Democratic voters fared better against the virus, which became a partisan issue. Which is all just to say, the vaccines did actually save a lot of lives, and you were safer from COVID if you took them than if you didn't, even if they didn't actually prevent you from getting the virus.

Number seven, one core component of Kennedy's platform is that the COVID-19 vaccines caused a lot of injuries, which in turn destroyed trust, which is part of YES to tear these agencies apart and rebuild them. But the evidence for this is not very strong. After four years, the COVID vaccines, by any objective measure, have proven miraculously safe. That is not to say they were risk-free. We know, for example, that MRNA vaccines cause heart inflammation in very rare cases, and the risk was higher for young males.

This is especially alarming and frustrating because young men were least in need of the vaccines to avoid serious illness. Additionally, cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome were elevated among those who had taken the now-discontin-Johnson-and-Johnson vaccine. But remember, over 5 billion people took some kind of COVID vaccine,

so it's not at all surprising that several hundred thousand adverse effects were documented. We've never had any kind of mass vaccination for a novel pathogen like this ever before. Number 8. When Kennedy is pushed into a corner to answer for his views, we see just how conspiratorial they are. Both the Academy of Pediatrics and the American Heart Association are offering vaccine guidance that differs from Kennedy, simply because they're filled with doctors whose careers inform their guidance on best health practices. Instead, Kennedy thinks they're

filled with doctors who are getting paid off by Big Pharma. Chronic illness is on the rise, mostly because we were getting older and acting less healthy. Instead, Kennedy thinks the CDC is creating a health crisis. Number nine, when testifying before Congress, Kennedy was asked to explain his firing of Susan Monterez. He told Congress that he asked Monterez if she was a trustworthy person, she said no, so he fired her. Alternatively, you can read Monterez's first-hand account of being fired in which she says Kennedy let her go because she refused to pre-approved the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel that had not yet met or made any recommendations.

Consider that for a moment. Either Monteraz, a microbiologist and wildly successful public health official delivered the worst and most bizarre job interview in the history of mankind, or Kennedy replaced the vaccine advisory panel with hand-picked scientists, then told the CDC director she had to approve their recommendations before the board had even convened. Number 10. I run a business. If I insisted potential employees agree to future plans for Tangle before knowing what they

were, I'd lose a lot of really smart and qualified employees. If my top staff members were all resigning in protests of my leadership and throwing up red flags about how I was running Tangle, you would all rightly be concerned about what was happening here. But the Department of Health and Human Services isn't a small independent media shop. It's a powerful government department that controls the regulation of drugs, the delivery of vaccines, and the recommendations the government gives on public health. Number 11. Remember that all of this, according to Kennedy, is part of his effort to restore American trusts in our health officials and science. But is it working? According to a CBS News poll, Kennedy's approval rating is

45% with 55% disapproving. Just one in four Americans trust him with health advice. 74% of Americans want vaccines to be more available. 22% want access to remain the same. Just 4% want them to be less available. Distrusting Kennedy's recommendations is an equivalent to supporting broad vaccine mandates, but clearly Kennedy's views are out of step with the countries enough to worry about him distancing public trust in the government's health recommendations even further. And number 12, finally, a closing note. I've said repeatedly that I share some of Kennedy's views about our health. We are being ravaged by diseases of despair. We don't eat well. Our sedentary lifestyles are bad for physical and mental health, but we don't talk nearly

enough about the successes of public health and the advancements of science, which have largely been pushed by agencies, doctors, and research Kennedy and the Trump administration are now attacking. Our food, though more process, is less contaminated thanks to FDA regulation. Infant mortality has plummeted. Cancer deaths have dropped 34% since 1991. Death rates from leukemia and kids are down 93% since 1950. Vaccines for measles, polio, hep B, and HPV have saved millions of lives. Smallpox was eliminated. Measles is down 99%. Life expectancy rose in the 20th century by 10 years. Cardiovascular disease mortality fell 60% from the 1950s. Even the maternal mortality rates in the U.S. have been overstated and new studies show our numbers are much more in line with other developed

nations. HIV and AIDS deaths are down 80% from the mid-1990s. Overdose deaths finally fell in 24 by a whopping 27%. The list goes on and on and on. In short, we're doing a lot of things right and doing it in large part because of these agencies, scientific research, new drugs, new vaccines, and new treatment protocols. Quite obviously, this is enough to warrant not burning the entire system down. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for my take. We're skipping your questions answered today because my take got a little lengthy,

but we'll be back tomorrow with a full show, and I'll see you guys then. Have a good one. Peace. Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under-the-radar story for today, folks. Mercer's 2025 survey of employer-sponsored health plans found that the total health benefit cost per employee is expected to rise 6.5% on average in 26, the highest annual increase in 15 years. Over 2,000 organizations responded to the survey, with 59% indicating that

they will make cost-cutting changes, such as raising deductibles, to their plans in 2026, up from 48% in 2025. If the projections come to fruition, 2026 will be the fourth consecutive year of higher costs of health benefits, driven in part by more expensive treatments and increased utilization of health services. Mercer has the results, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right. Next up is our numbers section. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s hearing before the Senate Finance Committee on Thursday was approximately three hours in length. Former director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Susan Menares, served in the rule for 29 days before she was fired.

The approximate number of Health and Human Services employees laid off by Kennedy in July was 10,000. According to an August, September 2025 CBS News, UGov poll, 9% of Americans say Secretary Kennedy's policies are making vaccines more available, and 39% of Americans are saying Secretary Kennedy's policies are making vaccines less available. 74% of Americans say government health agencies should make vaccines, more available, while 4% say they should make them less available. 77% of Americans say that COVID-19 vaccines should be available to those who want them.

11% said they should only be available to people who meet certain criteria, and 12% said that they should not be available at all. 45% of Americans approve of Kennedy's job performance as health secretary, and 55% disapprove. All right, and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. Late last month, a journalist's family in Peru had a violent attack on their home diffused by an unlikely family member. When a suspect threw a stick of dynamite into Carlos Zaradi's family's home,

their cocker-spanual mix, Manchis, ran to the explosive and chewed on the fuse, deactivating it in time to save the family. She chewed it and chewed it and saved our lives, Zerati said. NBC News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to reetangle.com, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. As Isaac mentioned at the top, we're getting closer and closer to our October 24th Tangle Live event in Irvine, California.

Tomorrow we are revealing a discount code for a special VIP experience featuring a backstage meet-and-greet with Isaac and the other panelists, including Camille Foster, Anna Casperian, and Alex Thompson. If you are a premium member, watch your email in the morning to get early access. And if you're not a premium member and want to get access to this perk, you can easily upgrade your membership for just $6 a month if you don't want to miss out. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing all.

Have a great day, y'all. peace our executive editor and founder is me Isaac saw and our executive producer is john lull today's episode was edited and engineered by john lull our editorial staff is led by managing editor rie whitesman with senior editor will kayback and associate editors audrey moorhead bailey saul lindsay canoith and kendall white music for the podcast was produced by diet 75 and john lull and to learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at readtangle.com.