Tangle - Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as HHS secretary

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

On Thursday, President-elect Donald Trump announced he would nominate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Kennedy, who ended his independent bid for president in August and endorsed Trump, is a longtime environmental and public health activist whose views on vaccines and other healthcare issues have run counter to the medical establishment. If confirmed by the Senate, he would lead the largest health agency in the U.S., made up of organizations like the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to tanglemedia.supercast.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.We are hiring!In the last month or so, the rapid growth of our readership has accelerated a planned expansion of our team. We are hiring for two positions:1) Customer service lead. We are looking for a highly organized, dedicated professional to help us provide the best possible service to our readers and listeners that we can. This is a crucial role to fill, and we'll be hiring as soon as possible. Job listing here.2) Assistant to the editor. We are also looking for a highly organized individual dedicated to Tangle's mission who has a passion for multimedia and politics. This person will be working directly with Tangle's executive editor Isaac Saul out of Tangle HQ in Philadelphia, with a start date in February-March. Job listing here.Take the survey: What do you think of Trump nominating Kennedy for head of HHS? Let us know!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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your workplace more accessible and inclusive. Visit Canada.ca slash right here to connect with one near you today. A message from the Government of Canada. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul.

And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his nomination as the Department of Health and Human Services Secretary. We're going to break down some views about R.F.K. Jr.'s perspectives on things like vaccines and all that controversial stuff, what this nomination means, some of the interesting kind of complications, I guess you could say he raises for Republicans in the Senate. And of course, we're going to share it all with some views from the right and the left and then my take. Before we jump into the main podcast though, two important reminders. First, on Friday,

we published both a newsletter and podcast version of our final recap of the 2024 election, exploring why Kamala Harris and Democrats took major losses and what narratives should finally be put to bed. You can read that post by going to our website, readtangle.com, or by going to tanglemedia.supercast.com, subscribing to our premium podcast feed. And then when you add that feed to wherever you listen to podcasts, you will get the Friday edition in podcast form. Second, I also want to let you know that we are

still accepting applications for an assistant to the editor who would work with me here in Philadelphia. The job listing is in today's episode description and in today's newsletter. All right, that is it for some promos today. I'm gonna pass it to John for the rest of the newsletter and I'll be back for my take. ["The New York Times"] Thanks, Isaac, and welcome everybody.

Here are your quick hits for today. First up, President Joe Biden authorized Ukraine's military to use U.S.-provided long-range missiles on targets inside Russian territory, reportedly prompted by the presence of North Korean troops in Russia. Separately, Russia launched its largest drone and missile attack on Ukraine in months, targeting the country's energy infrastructure. Number 2. President-elect Donald Trump announced he plans to nominate North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum as Secretary of the Department of Interior, Natural Gas Executive Chris Wright

as Secretary of the Department of Energy, and former Representative Doug Collins as Secretary of the Department of Veteran Affairs. Number three, Israel killed Hezbollah's media relations chief Mohammed Afif in a strike on a building in Beirut, according to Lebanese officials. Number four, President Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping met during the Asian-Pacific Economic a thief in a strike on a building in Beirut, according to Lebanese officials. Number four, President Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping met during the Asian-Pacific Economic Cooperation Summit, agreeing to refrain from using artificial intelligence to control nuclear weapons systems and discussing the release of the two imprisoned U.S. citizens from China

that the State Department considers wrongfully detained. And number five, the Indian government said it conducted its first successful test of a long range hypersonic missile, joining the US, China and Russia as countries with hypersonic missile capabilities. ["Dreams of a New World"] Moments ago, President-elect Donald Trump just wrapped up his remarks speaking at his

Mar-a-Lago club, where the room is filled with several of the people that he just named to his incoming cabinet, including one of his latest and most controversial picks, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who Trump has chosen to be the nation's health secretary, despite how the vaccine skeptic has no medical degree or public health experience. Today I nominated him for, I guess, if you like health and if you like people that live a long time, it's the most important position. On Thursday, President-elect Donald Trump announced he would nominate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. Kennedy, who ended his independent

bid for president in August and endorsed Trump, is a longtime environmental and public health activist whose views on vaccines and other health care issues have run counter to the medical establishment. If confirmed by the Senate, he would lead the largest health agency in the U.S., made up of organizations like the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the National Institutes of Health. "'The safety and health of all Americans is the most important role of any administration, and HHS will play a big role in helping ensure

that everybody will be protected from harmful chemicals, pollutants, pesticides, pharmaceutical products, and food additives that have contributed to the overwhelming health crisis in this country,' Trump wrote in a post announcing his decision. Mr. Kennedy will restore these agencies to the traditions of gold standard scientific research and beacons of transparency to end the chronic disease epidemic and make America great and healthy again.

On the campaign trail, Kennedy promised significant changes to the departments that comprise HHS. Shortly before election day, Kennedy said that a prospective Trump administration would reverse the CDC's recommendations on fluoride in drinking water. Additionally, Kennedy said he would replace hundreds of NIH employees and suggested half of the department's research budget should go toward preventative, alternative,

and holistic approaches to health. He has also argued against efforts supported by members of Congress in both parties to cover diabetes and weight loss medications like Ozempic under Medicare and Medicaid. Kennedy's views on vaccines could also factor heavily into his insight over the FDA, which regulates vaccine use. Though he denies that he is opposed to vaccines and said he would not take away anybody's vaccines after Trump's victory, Kennedy has suggested that autism has become more common due to modern vaccinations and criticized the NIH for not doing enough to

study a connection between the two. Kennedy is also cast doubt on the efficacy of measles vaccines. Trump's announcement prompted a divided response among Republican lawmakers, while Democrats largely criticized the pick. Many prominent members of the medical community objected to the pick, suggesting that Kennedy's anti-establishment views on key public health issues could pose a danger to Americans who rely on HHS to guide public health policy. Today, we'll explore what writers on the right and the left are saying about Kennedy's nomination and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick break.

Got a mortgage? Chances are you're thinking about your payments right now. Need help? Ask your bank about relief measures that may be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada,

which has nearly doubled the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider Flu-Sylvax-Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider Flu-Celvax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed.

Learn more at FluCelvax.ca. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. Alright, first up, let's start with what the write is saying. The write is mixed on the pic, with many suggesting that Kennedy lacks the qualifications to lead HHS. Some say Kennedy is poised to overhaul public health in America for the better. Others say Kennedy should have a role in the Trump administration, but HHS is the wrong one. The New York Post editorial board wrote, "'Putting R.F.K. Jr. in charge of health breaks the first rule of medicine.'"

We sat down with R.F.K. Jr. back in May, 2023, when he was still challenging President Biden for the Democratic nomination. As we noted then, he's an independent thinker who sees through a lot of bull, an incisive critic of some of Biden's worst policies, who saw that the Democratic party lost its way most acutely in the reaction to Donald Trump's first election. But the insights we were impressed with had nothing to do with health, the board said.

He told us with full conviction that all of America's chronic health problems began in one year in the 1980s when a dozen bad ideas happened, convincing to the gullible conspiracy hungry crowd on Twitter, but to the gullible conspiracy-hungry crowd on Twitter, but not the rest of us. In fact, we came out thinking he's nuts on a lot of fronts. And even where he makes a fair point as a critic, it's hard to see how he's the guy to lead HHS and its staff of 83,000 to practical solutions. The relationship between Big Pharma and the Feds is deeply dysfunctional, for example,

but drug companies do a lot of good and employ a lot of people. Sending the industry or even just its stocks into a tailspin would be a disaster in its own right, the board wrote. A radical, prolonged and confused transition ordered by a guy like RFK Jr., who will use the high office

to spout his controversial beliefs, leaves a lot of room for things to go wrong and for people to wind up harmed or even dead. In The Hill, Douglas McKinnon said RFK Jr. is poised to save the health and lives of millions of Americans. Kennedy will transform our sick care industry and literally save millions of lives in the process. Anyone paying attention to the utter catastrophe that has become America's health industry

knows that this is not political hyperbole or an exaggeration. It is an outright obscenity that we are losing so many Americans to entirely preventable causes," McKinnon wrote. If Kennedy is even halfway successful in his quest to save the American people, and especially our children, from the life-robbing threats of ultra-processed foods and toxic chemicals, he can potentially save or improve tens of millions of lives over the next four years. That cure will transcend every demographic and income level. Under the direction of Trump, Kennedy may turn ignorance into acceptance, acceptance into hope, hope to belief,

and belief to results. Again, what is the value of someone who literally has the potential to save millions of lives and improve the health of tens of millions of children and adults? I suspect we're about to find out. In National Review, Jack Butler argued RFK Jr. could be useful, but not atop health and human services. It is not out of some sacrosanct respect for the HHS that Trump's nomination of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead it gives me pause. It is rather out of concern that his priorities do not align with what must be done to HHS specifically and that he would better achieve them elsewhere in

the government's massive health apparatus," Butler said. The next head of HHS should have two priorities for the department as a whole, to figuratively drive out its demons and to restrain government meddling in healthcare that would require someone who understands its intricacies and who would have the requisite principles to apply them. Kennedy's views on a variety of subjects have entailed controversy, particularly on vaccines, but his opposition to processed foods, in contrast to the man who would appoint him and dubious chemical additives in them, is far sounder.

The same goes for his objection to government nutrition advice and other unsavory aspects of the linkages between corporations and government in this area," Butler wrote. But these sentiments do not add up to a case for putting him in charge of HHS. A different role, one that would make him an intentional interdepartmental irritant, constantly and rightfully harassing institutions under the remit of HHS and forcing transparency, transparency would be a better fit. Alright that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is critical of Kennedy's nomination, expressing concern that his openness to conspiratorial thinking will endanger public health.

Some say the reforms Kennedy is pushing for will not fix the problems they purport to address. Others say Democrats should seek a partnership with Kennedy based on common ground. In Bloomberg, Lisa Jarvis argued, RFK Jr.'s junk science will put every American at risk. The list of his disqualifying attributes for HHS secretary is long. There's his lack of public health expertise or experience navigating, let alone managing a hulking government agency,

one he promises to significantly overhaul, scrapping entire departments and firing hundreds. And then there's the larger issue of his embrace of anti-vaccine activism, AIDS denialism and offensive theories about transgender children. He's also suggested that Wi-Fi causes cancer and blamed school shootings on antidepressants. He is correct that the U.S. has a serious problem with childhood obesity, and rates

of chronic diseases, such as diabetes and Alzheimer's, are on the rise, and few would argue against putting more resources into disease prevention or making fundamental changes to improve everyone's access to healthier, safer food," Jarvis wrote. But noticing a problem, one many people within HHS, of course, have not only noticed but are actively working on, is one thing. Assessing the evidence to understand the complex sources for our current sick state and crafting the appropriate set of evidence-backed solutions to make us all healthier is something entirely different. In MSNBC, Kavita Patel said, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. will not make anybody healthier. One of the most alarming aspects of Kennedy's potential appointment is his long-standing

skepticism of vaccines. Despite overwhelming scientific evidence that supports the safety and efficacy of vaccines, Kennedy has repeatedly promoted debunked theories inaccurately linking vaccines to autism and other health issues," Patel wrote. If you were to implement policies based on these unfounded beliefs, it could lead to, among other things, decreased vaccination rates, potentially causing outbreaks of preventable diseases, weakened immunization programs, putting vulnerable populations at risk, and erosion of public trust in vital health institutions. Kennedy's national reputation was built on his environmental advocacy, but even there his approach has been anti-scientific.

Should he bring his approach to chemical regulation to the role of HHS secretary, it could have unintended consequences. Without the proper scientific backing and research, overzealous regulation could impede the development of actually beneficial products and treatments, Patel said. Perhaps most concerning is the potential for Kennedy's views to shape broader public health policy. His stance on issues like water fluoridation, despite its proven benefits for dental health,

could lead to policy changes that harm millions of Americans. In the New York Times, Rachel Bedard wrote about how to handle Kennedy as America's top health official. Like many liberals and health care providers, I've been alarmed at Mr. Kennedy's dubious claims about public health and science. However, I believe there's a health care agenda that finds common ground between people

like myself, medical researchers, and clinicians, and Mr. Kennedy, Bedard said. There are seeds of truth to some of what Mr. Kennedy says. We can't spend four years simply fighting his agenda. Non-cooperation won't protect the integrity of America's public health or advance its interests. Rather, there's opportunity to leverage Mr. Kennedy's skepticism and relative political independence for good,

to turn his most valid criticisms of the American healthcare system into constructive reforms. Restoring people's willingness to take vaccines is urgent and Mr. Kennedy's skepticism on this topic may counter intuitively be an advantage. His statements on vaccinations are more complex than they are often caricatured to be, Bedard read. Treating Mr. Kennedy supporters as fools

has not brought them into the pro-vaccine tent and the country risks outbreaks of dangerous diseases such as measles if vaccination refusals continue to rise. If Mr. Kennedy approaches his role with the same us-versus-them spirit that powered his failed independent campaign for the presidency, he will sow division and put lives at risk. But if he de-escalates conspiracist rhetoric and leads a sincere national conversation about vaccination, he might just save them. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.

All right, that is it for with the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So I'll be frank. I'm pretty disturbed by this pick. All right, that is it for with the left and the right are saying which brings us to my take So I'll be frank. I'm pretty disturbed by this pick I put Kennedy's nomination in a similar bucket as naming Pete Eggset Tulsi Gabbard and Matt Gaetz all of whom I believe have disqualifying resumes for the jobs. They've been tapped for Still in the spirit of tangle I want to start by saying a few earnestly supportive things about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. because there are things that I like about him. As I wrote when he decided to run for president, understanding his appeal is not difficult. Our country is incredibly

unhealthy, and it seems like very few politicians even care. We're suffering from addiction, we're morbidly obese, we're overly medicated, and we're facing genuine epidemics of anxiety, depression, and loneliness. This combination has led to skyrocketing rates of disease and deaths of despair, which seem to be all around us. Kennedy, in earnest and human ways, speaks to these ills more bluntly and persuasively than most people in healthcare or politics. He rails against big pharma, preaches healthy eating and exercise, and implores us to look more critically at ourselves, our lifestyles,

the corporations we trust, and even our healthcare system. I appreciate all of this. And I appreciate that he has dedicated his life to being deeply skeptical of power, which has made him a legend among many liberals, the new ascendant right, and the politically homeless. And of course, let's not forget the single biggest reason Kennedy is sitting where he is, our government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

At a time when many healthcare professionals failed to communicate well to the public or when many Americans felt their personal freedoms were curtailed in the name of dubious public health pushes, Kennedy capitalized on the skepticism and frustration a lot of Americans had and spoke about the pandemic in a way that was arresting and genuine. Even some of his most crankish ideas are actually far more legitimate and worth debating than some experts allow. For instance, there is a good argument that

widespread fluoridation of toothpaste makes removing fluoride from public drinking water a good option. I'm not totally sold on this, but it's at least a reasonable debate to have. Even on one of his most divisive issues, autism, Kennedy is right that autism rates have skyrocketed and that we don't have a very good scientific consensus as to why. And no, it is not because of how we diagnose it. Even as the right idea is about fast food and healthy living. But Kennedy's beliefs and ideology go beyond just the focus on what we put in our bodies, skepticism of big pharma, or wariness about an over-medicated and over-vaccinated population. He has, in many respects, earned

his mainstream label as a crank or a huckster. He does believe a lot of totally bonkers, ridiculous, easily debunkable things, and he deserves criticism for those beliefs. Kennedy started a non-profit campaign against child immunization, one of the most astonishing healthcare achievements of the 21st century. He infamously wondered aloud if COVID-19 was ethnically engineered to spare Jewish and Chinese people and has suggested cell phones and ultrasounds are driving up rates of Tourette's and peanut allergies.

If I could sum his worldview up in a sentence, it's that correlation does equal causation, always and forever, and the government and big corporations are in on it, whatever it is. In his book on Anthony Fauci, Kennedy shared conspiracy theories about AIDS, even going so far as to cite AIDS activist Christine Maggiore without mentioning that she was HIV positive, believed HIV to be harmless, refused treatment, died of AIDS at 52, and breastfed and passed the virus on to her daughter, who then died at the age of three. Again, Kennedy propped this person up

in an edited fact-checked book criticizing healthcare experts without ever informing his readers of her background. This stuff makes him dangerous. And I don't mean that in a mysterious, scornful sense. I mean that because he is such a good communicator, is right about some very important issues, and has such a strong brand among the power skeptical,

he can say things that sound smart, but are really quite obviously wrong, potentially dumbing down our collective understanding of public health. Let me give you an example. One of Kennedy's go-to lines for broaching the subject of vaccines and autism is, I've never in my life seen a man my age

with full-blown autism, not once. Where are these men? The implication is that autism is not prevalent in Kennedy's peer group because autism rates only started ramping up when we started giving kids in the generations below him vaccines. I have a very good friend who recently completed a PhD studying molecular biology of autism and also has an older brother who is autistic and nonverbal. I asked him about Kennedy's comments and he responded with a storm of questions and frustration. Where is he expecting to see adults with profound autism?

These people are not out in the community. Most are confined to institutions, many live in group homes and spend their days there. The life expectancy of profound autism is also much lower, often in the 40s or 50s, because most people with severe disabilities have other comorbidities and health problems, preventing them from reaching Kennedy's age, which is 70 years old. Of course, no matter how much he tries to downplay it, Kennedy continues to insist that vaccination schedules are causing autism. And while he claims he isn't going to take away vaccinations, Trump certainly seems

to believe he might. Many Americans hope that he will, and as head of HHS, he would be able to impact vaccinations in some significant ways. So the vaccines cause autism belief is worth exploring. It's easy to understand why this belief is so compelling. People with autism often look to be developing typically, but then lag behind developmental milestones between the ages of 18 and 36 months when children start to develop more complex social behavior. That is also when kids get a lot of vaccines, making the large scale government approved round

of childhood vaccination a convenient culprit. But that belief is ill founded. Jill Escher, one of my favorite writers covering autism who has two children impacted by profound autism, helpfully reminded us how we know that autism is not caused by vaccines, as Kennedy often insinuates or says outright. In her piece in the Free Press, she writes,

we know that a hallmark of autism is this regulation of brain development starting in the prenatal period. Childhood immunization simply cannot explain what goes wrong during gestation. There is not a single ingredient in vaccines that can cause childhood brain development to go awry, and no animal study shows links between vaccines

and the abnormal brain development seen in autism. There is no plausible reason vaccines could explain autism's strong heritability, e.g. sharply increase incidence among siblings, or its strong male-to-female ratio of about 4 to 1. The vaccine schedule cannot possibly explain the steadily accelerating rates over time, and most importantly, every epidemiological study on the topic has confirmed zero association between vaccination status and the development of autism. This is the whole ball game to me.

Someone who cannot understand these realities should not be running HHS. Kennedy is not a doctor. He's not an expert in any field. He has zero experience running any organization even close to as far reaching critical and complicated as HHS. This is an organization with over 83,000 people on staff.

It is the largest department in the federal government. One out of every $4 in our budget, that's your tax dollars goes through it, including the money going to Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare. It is arguably the most important department in all of the federal government and Kennedy

is deeply and profoundly unqualified to lead it. Of course, this is to say nothing of the bizarre spectacle of Republicans rallying behind a pro-choice Democrat who has repeatedly fantasized about throwing his political opponents in jail and is now pushing a Michelle Obama-esque program to strictly regulate what American kids eat at school. Alas, partisanship is one hell of a drug. While I respect much of what Kennedy stands for, skepticism, healthy living, and anti-establishment attitude,

his personal being is dominated by far too many characteristics that should not be anywhere near the levers of power at HHS, gullibility, conspiratorial thinking, and distrust of science. My list of concerns here is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more dirt out there on Kennedy and a lot more of it will come up during his Senate confirmation hearing.

With any luck, that process will scare off some Senate Republicans and he won't be confirmed. Instead, I hope he finds a smaller but still important role in the administration where he can continue to challenge the mainstream consensus and push Americans to live healthier lives. But HHS secretary, no thanks. All right. That is it for my take, which got a bit long today. So we're skipping our listener question, but as always, if you have a question you want answered in the podcast, you can write to us, staffstaff at readtangle.com. I'm going to pass it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. We'll be right back after this quick break. Where can I get help hiring people with disabilities?

There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians with disabilities who are ready to work, and many local organizations are available to help you find qualified candidates and make your workplace more accessible and inclusive. Visit Canada.ca slash right here to connect with one near you today. A message from the Government of Canada. Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider Flu-Celvax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed.

Learn more at FluCelvax.ca. Thanks, Isaac. Here's your Under the Radar story for today, folks. On Friday, a federal judge in Texas blocked a Department of Labor rule that significantly expanded overtime for salaried workers, determining that the rule exceeded the department's authority. The Labor Department sought to increase the limit under which salaried workers in executive, administrative, and professional roles would qualify for overtime from $43,888 to $58,656, making an estimated 4 million workers eligible for overtime protections. However, U.S. District Judge Sean Jordan ruled that the department could not designate overtime eligibility based on wages.

The Associated Press has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. HHS's proposed mandatory spending budget for fiscal year 2025 is $1.7 trillion. HHS's budget in fiscal year 2024 as a percentage of total U.S. federal budget is 23.4 percent. The number of operating divisions encompassed by HHS is 13. The percentage of U.S. adults who favor substantially increasing federal spending on improving public health programs in a May 2021 survey by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

is 71%. The percentage of U.S. adults who believe the activities of public health agencies are important to the health of the nation is 72%. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s net favorability rating on May 19, 2023, one month after announcing his challenge to President Joe Biden in the Democratic primaries, was 12.1%, according to FiveThirtyEight. Kennedy's net favorability rating on October 9, 2023, the day he announced his independent bid for president, was 9.7%. And Kennedy's net favorability rating on August 23, 2024,

the day he announced the suspension of his presidential campaign, was minus 6.2%. Alright and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. Elephant conservation in Kenya has been largely successful, but has also led to increased conflicts between conservationists and farmers. On the one hand, human-elephant conflict is the number one cause of elephant death. On the other hand, elephant migration can wreck months of farming work. Luckily, an unlikely helper eases the human-elephant relationship, African honeybees.

One study found that elephants leave an area when they hear buzzing bees 86% of the time, which means the bees can help elephants and farmers avoid unwanted confrontations while providing a supplementary source of income to the farmers. Raw Story has the information on this and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please head over to READTANGLE.COM and sign up for a membership. You can also sign up for a premium podcast membership by heading over to TangleMedia.Supercast.com.

With that membership, you receive ad-free podcasts, Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews, and so much more. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.

Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by Dinka Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will K. Back, Ha Kelly Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bikova, who's also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle,

please go check out our website at readtangle.com. That's readtangle.com. Where can I get help hiring people with disabilities? There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians with disabilities who are ready to work, and many local organizations are available to help you find qualified candidates and make your workplace more accessible and inclusive. Visit Canada.ca slash right here to connect with one near you today. A message from the Government of Canada. The flu remains a serious disease. Message from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and

it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.