Tangle - Robert Hur testifies to Congress.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News.

Starting point is 00:00:29 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to

Starting point is 00:01:05 your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of Isaac's take.

Starting point is 00:02:00 I'm your host for today, John Law, and today we're going to be talking about Special Counsel Robert Herr's testimony to Congress. Before we get started, we have a couple of corrections to make. We had two numerical errors yesterday. The first was a simple mistype that somehow slipped by all of our editors. We said Biden-Trump would be the first rematch since 1965, and that should have been 1956 when Dwight Eisenhower ran against Adlai Stevenson for the second time. The second issue was with how we phrased one of our statistics. We said 29% of voters who watched Biden's State of the Union address said he did better than expected. However, 29% of all people thought that, and since 35% of people in that same poll didn't watch the address, that means that 45% of people who watched it thought Biden exceeded expectations.

Starting point is 00:02:50 These are our 102nd and 103rd corrections in Tangle's 240-week history and our first corrections since February 29th. We track corrections and place them at the top of the newsletter in an effort to maximize transparency with our readers. of the newsletter in an effort to maximize transparency with our readers. Also, as a reminder, our first ever Tangle Limited series, The Undecideds, will be premiering this Sunday. We're going to be following five voters up to and through Election Day who are unsure of how they're going to be voting. We hope that you get a chance to listen to it, and we're excited for you to follow along with us. Okay, with that out of the way, let's jump into today's quick hits. First up, former Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said he is

Starting point is 00:03:36 putting together a group to try to buy TikTok after the House of Representatives passed a bill that would ban the app from operating in the U.S. or force a sale by its Chinese owner. Number two, Russian President Vladimir Putin said he plans to redeploy military forces along Russia's border with Finland in response to the country becoming a member of the NATO alliance last year. Number three, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and called for new Israeli elections. Number four, SpaceX successfully launched its Starship rocket, the most powerful ever built. The rocket flew for roughly an hour before breaking up over the Indian Ocean. And number five, European Union lawmakers gave final approval to the Artificial Intelligence Act,

Starting point is 00:04:22 a law intended to serve as a guide for other governments in how to regulate AI. Countries will be required to ban prohibited AI systems six months after the rules enter the law books. Now to Capitol Hill, where former special counsel Robert Herr spent hours defending his investigation into President Biden's handling of classified documents. Republican lawmakers questioned Herr, a Trump-appointed former U.S. attorney, over his decision not to indict Biden, while Democrats criticized Herr's characterization of the president's memory and mental state. Robert Herr's testimony comes just over a month after his report was

Starting point is 00:05:06 released. Herr did not recommend any criminal charges, but he described President Biden as a quote, elderly man with a poor memory. My assessment in the report about the relevance of the president's memory was necessary and accurate and fair. I did not sanitize my explanation, nor did I disparage the president unfairly. On Tuesday, Special Counsel Robert Herr testified in front of the House Judiciary Committee about his final report on President Biden's handling of classified documents. As a reminder, in February, Herr released a 388-page report that cleared Biden of any criminal wrongdoing for his handling of classified documents, but he partially couched his rationale on his assessment of how a jury would view Biden's age and memory. Herr determined that Biden had been sloppy in his

Starting point is 00:05:57 handling of classified documents, but did not willfully retain them. And while he said the decision not to prosecute was straightforward, he also characterized Biden's memory in unflattering terms. The report played directly into concerns a majority of voters have about Biden's fitness for office as he runs for re-election at the age of 81. Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory, the report said, adding that Biden seemed to have diminished faculties and advancing age. Ahead of the hearing on Tuesday, the Justice Department released the transcript of Biden's two-day interview with investigators, which spanned roughly five hours in total.

Starting point is 00:06:36 The transcript showed repeated mental lapses from Biden during the interview, including references to incorrect dates, times, and events, and his difficulty remembering certain common words, like fax machine. At one point during the interview, Biden could not remember the year his son Beau died, a point that the president explicitly contested when Herr's report was first released. In the transcript, Biden gave the exact day Beau died, May 30th, but could not recall the year, 2015, before an aide prompted him. However, the transcript also showed Biden addressing a wide span of topics without incident throughout multiple interruptions. Biden spoke at length about the ways he handled

Starting point is 00:07:17 classified documents as vice president and his memories from that period. At other times, he recounted detailed stories from his time in politics. At one point, Herr remarked that Biden had photographic understanding and recall of his house in Wilmington, Delaware. Herr's testimony before the house marked the first public comments since the report's release. Throughout the hearing, Herr reiterated that he decided not to charge Biden because he didn't think he could persuade a jury that Biden acted willfully in his handling of documents. As expected, he faced aggressive questioning from both sides of the aisle. Democrats focused their questions on Herr's description of Biden's memory

Starting point is 00:07:55 in the report, attempting to poke holes in how the president was portrayed and suggesting that Herr was politically motivated in his investigation. In one notable moment, Representative Adam Schiff said to Herr, you cannot tell me you're so naive as to think your words would not have created a political firestorm. You understood how they would be manipulated by my colleagues here on the GOP side of the aisle and by President Trump. Herr responded, what I understood is the regulations that govern my conduct as a special counsel, adding, politics played no part whatsoever in my investigative steps. Representative Pramila Jayapal also clashed with Herr over his conclusion in the report, claiming that Herr exonerated him.

Starting point is 00:08:35 I did not exonerate him, Herr said to Jayapal. That word does not appear in my report. Republican lawmakers expressed frustration at Herr's decision not to charge Biden, contrasting Herr's investigation with special counsel Jack Smith's into former President Trump's handling of classified documents. At one point, Representative Tom McClintock asked Herr, all I have to do when I'm caught taking home classified materials is say, I'm sorry, Mr. Herr, but I'm getting old. My memory's not so great. This is the doctrine that you established in our laws now, and it's frightening. Congressman, my intent is certainly not to establish any sort of doctrine, Herr responded. I had a particular task. I have a particular set

Starting point is 00:09:14 of evidence to consider, to make a judgment with respect to one particular set of evidence, and that is what I did. Afterward, the White House downplayed the importance of Herr's testimony, emphasizing that nothing new was revealed about his decision not to prosecute the president. Today, we're going to take a look at the reaction to the hearing and the transcript of Herr's interview with Biden from the right and the left, and then we'll give Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. First up, we'll start with what the right is saying.

Starting point is 00:09:59 The right criticizes Democrats' treatment of Herr during the hearing, suggesting they damaged their credibility. Some say Herr effectively defended his decision-making in the investigation. Others wish that Republicans had been more focused in their questioning. The New York Post editorial board said, Democrats' badgering of Robert Herr only made President Biden look worse. Democrats spent much of Tuesday's House Judiciary hearing with Herr, pushing him to call this an exoneration of the president.

Starting point is 00:10:25 Oh, and bashing him for honestly saying how Biden came off in their interviews, the board wrote. But Herr is a straight shooter, straight out of central casting. He gave Biden a way out of any future prosecution, though he made it clear the evidence could warrant a recommendation to prosecute. Rather than being grateful for avoiding a high-profile embarrassment in an election year, Democrats couldn't stop themselves from venting righteous indignation, which only succeeded in hurting the president's image further. Herr took great care to say in his report everything he was going to say. All the Dems' badgering did was force him to repeat himself, the board said. Biden knew perfectly well what the law is on classified docs. It didn't stop him from

Starting point is 00:11:01 taking stuff back home in his Senate days when he had zero right, nor from knowingly holding on to more docs after he left office as Veep. In town hall, Matt Vespa argued, Democrats are running into a similar problem in attacking special counsel Robert Herr. House Democrats have long waited in the tall grass to ambush Herr, who included damning portions in his report about the president's memory. But Herr defended his assessment of the president's cognitive abilities, which the American people know has been severely degraded, Vespa wrote. The ongoing liberal narrative is that Herr is a Republican out to smear the president. What he did, however, was well within department policy. While not as explosive,

Starting point is 00:11:40 Democrats are running into the same problem they had trying to discredit IRS whistleblowers Joseph Ziegler and Gary Shapley. They've got nothing. Ziegler and Shapley were credible IRS agents who detailed at length the persuasive interference they encountered by the Democrat-run Department of Justice when trying to investigate Hunter Biden. Herr is also a credible DOJ official who has thus far demonstrated he's not some right-wing hack. official who has thus far demonstrated he's not some right-wing hack. In Fox News, John Yoo and John Hsu wrote, Republicans missed a major moment in the hearing. For most Americans, the important issue is not whether Biden took classified documents home after the end of his vice presidency in 2017, but whether he is mentally fit to continue serving as president, Yoo and Hsu said.

Starting point is 00:12:22 Republican members failed to mine the most important area for questioning. While the Justice Department released a transcript of the interview, only Herr's personal testimony could allow the American public to truly understand President Biden's mental fitness. Committee members did not require Herr to address, for example, President Biden's demeanor, alertness, memory, truthfulness, or overall mental state. Republican members did not strongly follow up on Herr's conclusion in his report that Biden's answers were sometimes not credible. They could have asked Herr to explain exactly which of his observations and Biden's answers led him to believe that a jury might not convict Biden

Starting point is 00:12:57 and whether the DOJ could rebut those arguments at trial. They could have asked Herr why he didn't focus on the classified documents in Biden's possession that were from his Senate days. Senators may not remove such documents nor any notes about them from the skiff. And thus, Biden knowingly and wrongfully removed and retained those classified documents. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is unconvinced by Herr's explanations for why he included an assessment of Biden's memory in the report. Some say the hearing and the transcript show that Herr acted improperly in the investigation. Others doubt Herr's claim that politics played no role in his report. The New York Daily News editorial board said the Robert Herr show obscures

Starting point is 00:13:50 the real takeaways. Hours of testimony by Robert Herr predictably revealed little new. Like many such hearings, it was intended not for fact-finding or accountability, but pure theater, the board wrote. Some observers characterized the session as seeing attacks on Herr coming from both sides of the aisle, but it must be noted that these criticisms are not all equivalent. Democrats went after Herr on the legitimate grounds that the special council injected irrelevant pseudo-medical analysis into his report. Republicans, for their part, were irate that Herr had not stretched the truth enough. All this circus is a distraction from the main takeaway here, which is that a former Trump-appointed U.S. attorney and clerk for some of the most conservative federal judges in recent memory, including late Chief Justice William

Starting point is 00:14:34 Rehnquist, who might want a judicial or administrative appointment under a second Trump term, wasn't able to find a basis to charge Biden with a crime despite Herculean efforts, the board said. Herr's attempts to paint the president as on the verge of senility are refuted not only by the transcripts, but by the plain reality of Biden's recent public appearances. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown

Starting point is 00:15:15 is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. In the Washington Post, Ruth Marcus argued the special counsel was unfair to Biden and his

Starting point is 00:15:58 transcript proves it. It turns out that the special counsel mischaracterized and overstated Biden's alleged memory lapses. He consistently adopted an interpretation that is as uncharitable and damaging to Biden as possible. Gratuitous is bad enough. This was gratuitous and misleading, Marcus wrote. But the special counsel well understood that his report to Attorney General Merrick Garland would be made public. And he understood, or should have, the political fallout that would result from his scorching assessment of Biden. So he had a dual responsibility here, and he failed twice. First, he went beyond, far beyond, what was necessary to outline his concerns about Biden's

Starting point is 00:16:36 memory and how it would impact any case against him. Second, as we just learned, his recitation of the facts was one-sided. In The Atlantic, Adam Serwer wrote about how Herr misled the country on Biden's memory. The transcripts of Herr's interviews with Biden suggest that characterization, politically convenient for Republicans and the Trump campaign, was misleading, Serwer wrote. The transcript does not completely refute Herr's description of Biden's memory, but it is entirely incompatible with the conservative refrain that Biden has age-related dementia. During his testimony before the House, Herr insisted that partisan politics had no place whatsoever in my work. He tried to have it both

Starting point is 00:17:14 ways, insisting that his report was accurate while refuting the most uncharitable right-wing characterizations of Biden's memory. But as legal experts pointed out after the report was released, Herr's description of Biden's memory was not a necessary element of his duties, and it is unlikely that someone with as much experience in Washington as Herr would be so naive as to not understand how those phrases would be used politically. All right, that is it for what the right and the left are saying, which brings us to Isaac's take. Just as a reminder, this is Isaac's opinion, but I'll be reading it in the first person. When we first wrote about Herr's findings, we touched on a lot of facets. The political storm it created for Biden, the question of whether Herr's comments on his memory

Starting point is 00:18:04 were inappropriate, and the justification for not charging him. Tuesday's hearing was mostly a debate about the special counsel's justification, so that's what we're focusing on today. Herr refuted the points raised by members of Congress from the left and right, but he didn't contest their main arguments. He agreed with Democrats that his report found there wasn't enough evidence of wrongdoing to prosecute. He also agreed with Republicans that his report found there wasn't enough evidence of wrongdoing to prosecute. He also agreed with Republicans that he concluded a jury was likely to sympathize with Biden for appearing as an elderly man with poor memory. So which is it? Was there insufficient evidence of wrongdoing for the DOJ to prosecute Joe Biden, or would a jury sympathize with the president for seeming forgetful? The answer, which seems obvious to me, is that it's both.

Starting point is 00:18:44 And there's no reason why you can't look at Herr's report, read the transcripts of his conversations with Biden, and listen to his congressional testimony and not hold both views at once. Contrary to the reaction from both sides, I thought Herr's testimony was strong and provided insight about his initial findings, which at the time left me with a lot of questions. And although Herr didn't come away unscathed, his testimony actually moved me to a much more favorable position on the decisions he made. The only moments when I thought Herr gave less than stellar testimony were when he was responding to Democrats accusing him of being political. At several points, he intentionally talked over Democrats to protest the idea that he included comments about the president's memory out of political motivation, even though those questions were obviously inbounds. Herr, who is

Starting point is 00:19:30 a registered Republican, did not seem nearly as combative with Republicans. Did that show his partisan bias? Maybe. But it can be just as easily interpreted as a response to combativeness from Democrats. All in all, I thought Herr came off as very poised and straightforward. Did his report exonerate Biden? No. It found insufficient evidence to prosecute, and Herr was right to insist upon that difference. Was the DOJ enforcing a double standard between Biden and Trump? Again, no. The cases are very different. What about the transcript? Did it show that Herr depicted Biden inaccurately? I don't think so. I think Biden probably gave the impression of a well-meaning older man who couldn't easily recall times and dates. And lastly, did Herr bring up Biden's age to cast him in a negative light politically?

Starting point is 00:20:15 There's room to argue on that point. But as I said when the report came out, including his assessment seems appropriate, and I only feel more confident about that after hearing Herr testify. On the one hand, legal experts have made a compelling case that including his assessment of Biden's memories in the report was gratuitous, arguing that Herr lacked the evidence to charge Biden regardless and should have taken greater care to avoid politically inflammatory comments. That's a good point, especially considering that Biden's classified documents case is quite similar to former Vice President Mike Pence's, which also did not lead to prosecution. On the other hand, I think the transcript provides enough justification for Herr to include that opinion in his report.

Starting point is 00:20:55 I encourage anyone skeptical of Herr to take some time to read the transcript of Biden and Herr's interview, or at least a summary of it. Herr's interview, or at least a summary of it. It's clear to me that Biden had trouble recalling basic information throughout the interview, and it's somewhat unnerving to read about aides repeatedly reminding him about things like when he was vice president. Even taking the circumstances into account, the interview took place in the days after Hamas's October 7th attack, the extent of memory issues Biden seemed to be having is absolutely relevant to Herr's ability to successfully bring a case against the president. Ultimately, I think Herr should have been commended for the consistency and openness with which he handled the case, praise that can't be given to other recent special counsels. My earnest hope is that his testimony might allow us to put Biden's

Starting point is 00:21:39 classified documents case to bed so we can move on to other issues. documents case to bed so we can move on to other issues. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for Isaac's take, which brings us to your questions answered. This question is from Bob in Massachusetts. Why so quiet about the situation in Haiti? Shouldn't Americans be concerned that the whole island is basically under gang control? Okay, well, we haven't exactly been quiet about it. We link to Haiti in our quick hit section on Monday. It just isn't the kind of international news that we normally cover in Tangle, where we focus on U.S. politics. But here's the quick rundown. Gangs in Haiti stormed

Starting point is 00:22:25 a major prison in Port-au-Prince, the capital, on the evening of March 3rd, freeing 3,700 inmates and leading the government to declare a state of emergency. The prison attacks came after heavy gunfire broke out in Port-au-Prince in recent days, killing at least 12 people, following calls by gang leader Jimmy Jaurizier to overthrow Prime Minister Ariel Henry, according to Daily Chatter. Henry came to the office shortly after the assassination of President Jovenel Moïse in July of 2021 and pledged to step down by early February 2024. But he later said that security must be re-established in the Caribbean nation to ensure free and

Starting point is 00:23:02 fair parliamentary and presidential polls. established in the Caribbean nation to ensure free and fair parliamentary and presidential polls. The recent clashes took place as Omri was visiting Kenya to finalize the details of a UN-sponsored mission to help Haiti's security situation. Gang violence has led to the displacement of 362,000 people in recent years and over 15,000 people in the last two weeks, according to UN estimates. The situation is dire, as neighborhoods are burning, hospitals are looted, and hunger is widespread. Prime Minister Henri was able to negotiate 1,000 Kenyan police officers to come to the island of Hispaniola, which Haiti shares with the Dominican Republic, to quell the violence. But that deal is now on

Starting point is 00:23:40 hold, as Henri has resigned amid the violence and mounting international pressure. Henri's resignation has calmed the violence, but it is unclear if that'll last. Should Americans be concerned? Absolutely, we should be concerned. Disruption in Haiti isn't likely to be a security threat to American citizens, but we do have a significant diplomatic relationship with the Caribbean nation, and evacuating personnel from our embassy there is not a good sign. We won't know the long-term effects of the instability until the violence settles, but the humanitarian situation in Haiti is harrowing. Add to the 362,000 displaced that nearly 1 million of Haiti's 11 million people are on the brink of famine, and unrest and violence are commonplace. There are young kids in the

Starting point is 00:24:21 streets with heavy automatic weapons, said 36-year-old Haitian Blondine Tenise, a radio broadcaster who was kidnapped in July. They shoot people and burn their bodies with no remorse. I don't know how to qualify that. I ask myself what happened to this generation. All right, that is it for Your Questions Answered, which brings us to our Under the Radar story. The continental United States experienced the warmest winter on record this year, with states in the northern tier of the country seeing the largest temperature increase from historical averages. New data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration shows some typically frigid states, like North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin experienced record-setting warmth, while

Starting point is 00:25:05 temperatures across the U.S. as a whole were 5.4 degrees Fahrenheit above average for the season from December to February. The NOAA said recently notable climate events, such as a series of atmospheric rivers in the West and tornadoes in the Midwest, were likely driven in part by warmer temperatures. Axios has the story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The approximate amount of time Herr's hearing lasted was five hours. Prior to its release, the percentage of voters who said they wanted to see Herr's report made public was 76%.

Starting point is 00:25:42 That's according to a February poll from Harvard Caps Harris. The percentage of Republicans who said the report should report made public was 76%. That's according to a February poll from Harvard Caps Harris. The percentage of Republicans who said the report should be made public is 91%. The percentage of Democrats who said the report should be made public is 64%. The percentage of Americans who agreed with the statement that Biden received special treatment because he is the U.S. president, and the investigation into his handling of classified documents is 53 percent. That's according to a Reuters Ipsos poll from February. The percentage of Americans who said they considered it believable that Biden took classified information illegally after his time as vice president was 64 percent. All right, and last but not least, our have a nice day story.

Starting point is 00:26:29 James is an overnight security guard at a Providence College dormitory in Rhode Island, where he's well-liked by the residents. However, James's family lives in Nigeria, and he has not seen them for years, which bothered the students in his hall who felt a deep connection with him. To help James reconnect with his family, the students launched a GoFundMe campaign with a modest goal of $3,500. They did not anticipate the overwhelming response of the community and raised an incredible $26,000. Once we learned that James had not seen his family in over a decade, that is what kickstarted this for us. We take care of our own and we firmly believe James is one of our own, said freshman Brandon Reichardt.

Starting point is 00:27:05 Sunny Skies has the story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you want to support our work, you can go to retangle.com and sign up for a membership. And don't forget, this Sunday, we are debuting our premiere episode of The Undecided. It's going to be right on our normal podcast page. And probably down the line in the future, we're going to set up a special page dedicated just to that series. We'll be right back here on Monday. Have a great weekend, everybody. Peace.

Starting point is 00:27:43 Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. Peace. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. If you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, Thanks for watching! and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu.

Starting point is 00:29:03 It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed.

Tangle - Robert Hur testifies to Congress.

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