Tangle - Senator Bob Menendez (D-NJ) guilty on all counts.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Starting point is 00:01:00 From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about Bob Menendez being convicted on all counts of bribery and corruption, all sorts of juicy, disappointing, awful stuff. Before we jump into that, though, I got to give a quick clarification. Yesterday, in one of our quick hits, we said that California Governor Gavin Newsom, the Democrat, signed a bill banning school districts from notifying parents if their child uses different pronouns or identifies as a different gender than their school record.

Starting point is 00:01:55 We linked to a Fox News article about this story in our newsletter and referred to lots of reporting from other news outlets. But it appears some of the early reports about this bill were actually misrepresenting the legislation, calling this a clarification, not a correction, because what we said is kind of true, but also I think not quite the full story. In fact, the bill that Newsom signed prohibits schools from mandating that teachers notify families about student gender identity changes. So he didn't ban schools from notifying parents. He banned schools from mandating that teachers notify parents about their student gender identity changes. So it doesn't actually prohibit schools from notifying parents at all. It does stop schools from mandating that they do that.

Starting point is 00:02:47 at all. It does stop schools from mandating that they do that. It's kind of a significant, important difference. So this got misreported everywhere. It actually took a couple of readers writing in and saying, I don't think that's quite right, which they were able to say because we published this in the early morning and then a bunch of stuff came out in the hours after that this bill is being misreported. And we caught some of that. So just wanted to update you there and make sure that was clear. We apologize for the lack of clarity on our part. And one other big and maybe even more important thing you'll see on our podcast today, we have a new episode of the Undecided podcast. We spoke to our undecided voters in the wake of President Biden's debate performance. We talk a

Starting point is 00:03:26 great deal about that. Our next episode is going to cover the assassination attempt of Donald Trump. So if you're curious what voters on the fence about what to do in 2024 are thinking right now, I highly recommend checking out that podcast. You will find it conveniently in this podcast channel because quite a few people complained about us publishing it on a separate channel. But also, you will find it on the separate Undecided's podcast channel, which you should go follow and subscribe to. So, wherever you get your Tangle podcasts, you will see the latest episode up and live. Write in to us anytime, staff at readtangle.com, or write to me, Isaac, I-S-A-A-C at readtangle.com with some thoughts

Starting point is 00:04:05 about the episode. All right, with that, I'm going to send it over to John and I'll be back for my take. Thanks, Isaac, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, Axios reported that several top Democrats believe Biden is close to dropping out of the presidential race, potentially as soon as this weekend. Separately, Representative Adam Schiff became the most senior elected House Democrat to publicly call on President Biden to drop out. Nancy Pelosi also reportedly told Biden privately that he could not win the election and should step down. Number two, President Biden tested positive for COVID-19, forcing him to cancel a campaign event and likely sidelining him for several days. Number three, former President Donald Trump

Starting point is 00:04:56 will speak in Milwaukee today at the Republican National Convention, his first public address since last week's assassination attempt. Number four, the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed the Secret Service Director and the Department of Homeland Security announced an investigation into Trump's assassination attempt. And number five, the U.S. will dismantle a pier in Gaza that was built to carry aid to Palestinians after it was damaged by weather. Senator Bob Menendez, once a towering figure in the United States Senate, now facing a flurry of calls for his resignation after being found guilty of being part of an elaborate political bribery and corruption scheme. We do want to bring you breaking news out of New York City.

Starting point is 00:05:49 A jury finding Senator Bob Menendez guilty in the federal bribery trial against him. He faces 36 years. I have never been anything but a patriot of my country and for my country. I have never, ever been a foreign agent. And the decision rendered by the jury today would put at risk every member of the United States Senate in terms of what they think a foreign agent would be. On Tuesday, Senator Bob Menendez, the Democrat from New Jersey, was convicted on all counts of bribery, acting as a foreign agent for Egypt, obstruction of justice, extortion, and conspiring to commit those crimes. The verdict makes Menendez the first sitting U.S. Senator to be found guilty

Starting point is 00:06:34 of being an agent of a foreign government. A quick reminder, in September of 2023, federal prosecutors in New York indicted Menendez on three counts and then added additional charges in March for a total of 16 criminal counts. The prosecution accused Menendez, his wife Nadine Menendez, and three New Jersey businessmen of running a years-long bribery scheme to wield the senator's influence to benefit the aforementioned businessmen and the governments of Egypt and Qatar. You can find our coverage of the initial indictment in a link in today's episode description. During the trial, the government presented 13 gold bars, around $500,000 in cash, and a Mercedes-Benz seized from Menendez's home as evidence of the

Starting point is 00:07:17 bribes, which the senator accepted in exchange for helping to ensure continued U.S. military aid to Egypt. Prosecutors also said Menendez pressured an Agriculture Department official to approve a lucrative contract between one of the businessmen and the Egyptian government to handle the certification of all halal meat exported from the U.S. to Egypt. Menendez's lawyers argued that his wife Nadine was solely responsible for accepting the bribes and kept her husband in the dark about the scheme. But the jury was unconvinced, finding the senator guilty after 13 hours of deliberation. This case was always about the shocking levels of corruption, said U.S. Attorney Damian Williams,

Starting point is 00:08:00 who brought the case after the verdict was announced. This wasn't politics as usual. This was politics for profit. Two of the business people were also found guilty, and a third accepted a plea deal to testify against Menendez. Nadine Menendez's trial is indefinitely delayed while she recovers from cancer surgery. Senator Menendez, who avoided conviction in a separate bribery case in 2018, said he plans to appeal the verdict. I have every faith that the law and the facts did not sustain that decision and that we will be successful upon appeal, the senator said. If the appeal is not granted, Menendez, 70 years old, faces up to 20 years in prison for each of the most serious counts. His sentencing is scheduled for October 29th. Shortly after the verdict was announced, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer called on Menendez to resign, and New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy said that the Senate should expel him if he refuses. If he resigns, Menendez would be the first senator to do so since Harrison Williams,

Starting point is 00:08:55 Jr. in 1982, also after a bribery conviction. Expelling Menendez would require two-thirds approval in the Senate, something that hasn't happened since 1862, when 14 senators were expelled for supporting the Confederacy. If either scenario comes to pass, Governor Murphy could appoint a senator to fill the vacancy before the November election, which he said he would do. On Wednesday, NBC News reported that Menendez was preparing to resign, but the senator refuted that report. For the time being, Menendez is still running for re-election against Democratic Representative Andy Kim and Republican businessman Curtis Bashaw after filing as an independent candidate in June. Legal scholars have posited that Menendez can still be re-elected and serve another term, even if sentenced to prison time. Today, we'll explore arguments from the right and the left

Starting point is 00:09:45 about Menendez's conviction and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Hey everyone, I want to tell you about a fantastic podcast called Through Conversations. This platform is dedicated to exploring the truth through deep, engaging conversations with some of the most brilliant minds out there. I actually had the pleasure of being a guest and diving into some thought-provoking topics, including the 2024 election and my own predictions on it. If you're curious, love learning, and want to hear from experts across various Thank you. and it's an excellent way to expand your mind. police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it

Starting point is 00:11:10 feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can Thank you. free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at fluselvax.ca. All right, first let's start up with some agreement. Both the right and the left unanimously agree that Menendez's conviction was the right outcome in the case. Both sides say that he should resign or be expelled from the Senate. All right, let's go over to what the right is saying. The right welcomes the verdict and argues Menendez should now be expelled from the Senate. Some say Menendez is finally being held accountable after years of corruption.

Starting point is 00:12:18 Others suggest the conviction could hurt Democrats' performance in November. The New York Post editorial board said, Justice is finally served. Step back in awe of Menendez's arrogance. He got away with it once, and then went right back to rolling in sleaze. Jurors rightly convicted him on 16 counts, including fraud, bribery, extortion, obstructing justice,

Starting point is 00:12:40 and acting as an illegal foreign agent. His sentence could total more than 200 years. Pray it's a good chunk of that, the board wrote. Menendez's massive corruption and outrageous temerity deserves consequences to match his monumental crimes. On top of vowing to appeal, Bob is defending widespread calls to resign. He won't even call off his bid for re-election as an independent, which could throw the November race to the Republicans. Many think he's angling for one more bribe, a presidential pardon right after Election Day, the board said. Instead, the Senate should act now and make him the first senator expelled in more than a century. Don't wait on

Starting point is 00:13:19 the Ethics Committee. Strip him of every possible opportunity to abuse his office for even one more day. In NewJersey.com, Paul Molshein wrote, Bob Menendez dug his own grave. For as long as the senator has been in political life, he skirted scandals that would have finished off a lesser man, Molshein said. His political career began in 1974 when his mentor, Union City Mayor Bill Musto, got him a patronage job as secretary to the Board of Education. Musto, a World War II veteran, was popular with Hudson County voters, but he had a habit of augmenting his income with contributions from contractors seeking change orders that raised the cost of construction projects. Menendez had signed those orders,

Starting point is 00:14:01 but instead of charging him, the feds made him their star witness in the trial of his mentor, who was convicted on the charges. Menendez is still on the ballot, but as an independent. If he somehow gets a good showing on November 5th, that could take off enough Democratic votes from Kim to make Bashaw the first Republican elected to the Senate since 1972, Malshine said. That might give Menendez some room for maneuvering inside the party, but unless he can convince the president to grant him a pardon, it looks like he's headed to prison. Having sat through his first trial, I can't begin to imagine why Menendez would want to risk another trial. In hot air, Jazz Shaw asked, what do you do with someone like Bob Menendez? The Senate could eject him on a

Starting point is 00:14:45 two-thirds vote, but that hardly ever happens because they prefer to let the process play out. Even if he left immediately, nothing much would change in terms of the balance of power in the short term, Shaw wrote. But how long would that situation hold? Most of us have thought of New Jersey as a solidly blue state for quite some time now, and Democrats have been taking the state for granted. But as crazy as it may sound, Donald Trump is leading Joe Biden in the Garden State in the latest round of polling, though the margin is razor thin. It would be damaging enough to Democrats if Trump snuck away with New Jersey's electoral votes, but can you imagine how many heads would be exploding in November if he dragged a Republican senator over the finish line with him, Shaw said. The other possibility that can't be entirely taken off the table is that Joe Biden could Bigfoot his way into the situation and preemptively pardon Menendez or at least commute

Starting point is 00:15:35 his sentence. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left also supports the outcome and joins calls for Menendez's resignation. Some say the conviction is a chance for Democrats to claim the ethical high ground over wrongdoing in their ranks. Others say the verdict proves political corruption can still be punished. The New Jersey Herald editorial board wrote, The time has come, Senator Menendez. For New Jersey's sake, resign. Menendez, now a felon convicted on 16 federal charges related to corruption and bribery, must resign. If he will not, his colleagues in the U.S. Senate must vote to expel him,

Starting point is 00:16:22 the board said. New Jersey has grown very weary of Menendez and his sordid case. At this moment, with many aspects of our democracy hanging in perilous balance given the stakes of the presidential election, New Jersey needs stability and thoughtful representation in the Senate. We don't need a felon distracted by what we're sure will be a pugnacious legal journey toward appeal. Dug in and resolute that he would again dodge federal corruption charges, Menendez has stayed in office. He was even afforded some shelter from Democratic colleagues who wanted to be sure to preserve a reliable partisan vote, the board wrote.

Starting point is 00:16:57 New Jersey's patience is exhausted, though. Menendez has had his proverbial day in court. He must depart the stage. In The Atlantic, David A. Graham said, the Menendez guilty verdict is the best news for Democrats in weeks. Menendez's conviction provides Democrats with a double opportunity. First, it could allow the party to be rid of a politician who is legendarily crooked, even by Garden State standards. Second, it offers Democrats a chance to move quickly against Menendez and show a contrast with Republicans who are standing with convicted felon Donald Trump

Starting point is 00:17:29 as their nominee, Graham wrote. Whether Menendez will yield to the pressure remains to be seen, but Congress has typically expelled members convicted of serious crimes, and Menendez's are particularly egregious because they concern him using his powerful perch as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to assist foreign governments and enrich himself. The verdict should rid the country of a craven agent for hire in the Senate, all while ridding Democrats of political liability. Should, Graham wrote. Menendez will also likely appeal the decision, and his best hope is the federal court system, and particularly a Supreme Court, that has systematically weakened anti-corruption laws and let crooked politicians

Starting point is 00:18:09 off in recent years. For the time being, however, it's still illegal for a senator to take gold bars and stacks of cash in exchange for influencing U.S. government policy. In Bloomberg, Barbara L. McQuaid called the conviction a rare public corruption victory. Tuesday's conviction of Senator Robert Menendez shows that, despite recent trends at the U.S. Supreme Court, some avenues remain open for prosecutors to hold public officials accountable for crimes, McQuaid said. In recent years, the Supreme Court has cut back on the application of federal statutes to the conduct of public officials. As a former federal prosecutor, I find this trend concerning, particularly in a time when public confidence in government is

Starting point is 00:18:50 particularly low. That track record makes Tuesday's conviction a refreshing reminder that public officials may still be held accountable for corrupt conduct, at least when the charges are as clear as those facing Menendez, McQuaid wrote. After several decades in which public corruption laws have been weakened by the Supreme Court, his conviction case marks a significant victory for the public. We all deserve the honest services of the officials we elect to serve us in government. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take. All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take.

Starting point is 00:19:41 So some days my job is really difficult, and some days it is very, very easy. When Senator Bob Menendez was indicted in September, I called on him to resign. As I said then, some indictments read in a particular kind of way to make it obvious that the federal government has a very strong case. It is not shocking that this case was resolved quickly and that Menendez was found guilty. The evidence in the indictment seemed overwhelming, and the argument Menendez presented at trial, throwing his wife under the bus, was not particularly compelling. Though I hold a pretty radical position on prisons that I've written about before, I'm glad to live in a country where dirty politicians who take bribes and use their power to enrich themselves end up in prison. Of all the uses for jails, that's probably one of the best I can think of. I'm also glad to live in a

Starting point is 00:20:25 country where an attorney general appointed by a Democrat is leading a department that is still prosecuting Democrats and even the president's son. I think a lot of Americans genuinely struggle to appreciate how lucky we are to have a system that still has some modicum of accountability. Certainly, we're not the best at it in the world, but we're pretty good. Indeed, Menendez's case is a reminder of what it looks like and how it feels when someone like him is held to account. It looks good, and it feels good, and we should do more of it, not less. This past year, I've written about how my position on prosecuting politicians has evolved and how I was compelled by the writing of Jonathan Katz.

Starting point is 00:21:09 His argument is that rather than worrying about the politics of prosecuting certain politicians, we should actually prosecute those who commit crimes. And it's just that simple. Katz put it like this. We should, quote, get George W. Bush and Dick Cheney indicted for torture, illegal wiretapping, and various war crimes, he said. Investigate, indict, and prosecute Bill Clinton for the alleged rape of Juanita Broderick. Prosecute every politician who's engaged in insider trading, illegally destroyed documents, or engaged in other kinds of fraud. This would be a better country by leagues if everyone who put on a dark suit and takes an oath of office understands not only that the law applies equally to them, but that the power they wield to shape and execute those laws means they will have to endure more scrutiny and potentially harsher

Starting point is 00:21:50 consequences than ordinary citizens, end quote. I've come to strongly believe this position, and I think it's actually a pretty obvious stance to take the longer you think about it. Menendez, of course, should resign. If he ends up in jail, he is unlikely to have much of a choice, but if he doesn't, and if he wants to fall out of public life with any shred of dignity, he'd step down now. And if Menendez is pompous and out of touch enough to barrel ahead with an independent re-election bid, Democrats in the Senate should join Republicans to remove him. It could actually be good politics. Barbara L. McQuaid, under what the left is saying, noted that anti-corruption laws have been weakened in the U.S. over the last few decades.

Starting point is 00:22:30 Those on the right celebrating the accountability Menendez is facing should take stock of this, just as those on the left should embrace his prosecution and use it politically to push for strengthening the laws that brought him down. For now, we don't have to spend time talking about the system being weakened or pompous politicians or difficult divisive issues. Today, we have our two major political parties agreeing, a corrupt politician being punished by an appointee of his own party, and a reminder that our country can still properly hold people count when it matters. It's a good day. We'll be right back after this quick break. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web,

Starting point is 00:23:29 his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada

Starting point is 00:23:58 for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Rachel in Denver, Colorado. Rachel said, Hello, Isaac. I just listened to your questions answer. This one's from Rachel in Denver, Colorado. Rachel said, hello, Isaac. I just listened to your TED talk. It was great. Congratulations. Thank you, Rachel. I am interested in the new language you are using to talk about divisive

Starting point is 00:24:34 subjects. As I have begun to step away from the very far left, I've been struggling to find words to critique the experience without alluding to the far right, e.g. woke and cancel culture, are two I can think of right now. Would you share more examples of words you use to distinguish yourself from any political tribe? Thank you. Okay, thank you, Rachel. Let me start with this. It's really, really hard to break patterns on your own in any arena, so you'll have to talk with other people to really learn how different people hear different words. First, from my perspective, when people from the left write in to challenge us on word choice, they're often not disengaging with us or canceling us, but are instead opening a dialogue. That's important to remember about many language-conscious people on the left. An increasingly tiny number of

Starting point is 00:25:20 them are interested in canceling you for your choices. So I'd say you should try not to be too reactionary or broad-brushing about the woke left, which it sounds like you are already trying to avoid. Second, I think you should try to be really specific about how you feel, then the words will come to you on their own. I know that when I'm in spaces I'm aware are very progressive and specific about language choices, I feel a little more self-censoring. A lot of other people report the same, which is why self-censoring is a popular way to describe the feeling of being in those groups. As for word choices, I try to be conscious not to use the words that instantly turn off or offend the right or left. Don't forget, the right is also very sensitive to certain language. If you want, I'd recommend reading one of our updates to our editorial guidelines for examples of other choices we make in Tangle, which are choices I often use in my

Starting point is 00:26:09 personal life. We've dropped the link to that article in today's episode description. It's important to keep in mind that the North Star isn't avoiding offending people or being overly sensitive. It's trying to communicate in a way people can hear you, even and especially if they disagree with your perspective. All right, that is it for your questions answered today. I'm gonna pass it back over to John for the rest of the pod. Don't forget, we've got a new Undecideds episode and we've got a new Sunday podcast coming out this weekend

Starting point is 00:26:36 with an interview with a former Secret Service agent. So keep your eyes out for that as well. And tomorrow on Friday, we've got a deep dive on the Secret Service coming up for members only in our newsletter. Retangle.com is the place you want to go to become a member. I will see you guys on Sunday. Have a good one.

Starting point is 00:27:00 Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. A new study from researchers at Johns Hopkins found that approximately 25% of U.S. adults with depression and anxiety can't pay their medical bills, potentially exacerbating mental health issues for those who go into debt to receive psychiatric care. Fewer than half of U.S. adults struggling with their mental health receive treatment, and concerns over medical debt could be causing that discrepancy. The study found that medical debt was linked with a significant increase in delayed or foregone treatment for mental disorders. Medical debt has also been linked to poor health outcomes

Starting point is 00:27:34 regardless of insurance status or income. Axios has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The number of senators who have been expelled from the Senate in U.S. history is 15. Of that group, the number of senators who were expelled for supporting the Confederacy during the Civil War was 14. The number of sitting senators who have resigned due to corruption charges is three. The amount of cash authorities found in Senator Bob Menendez's home during a raid in 2022 was $480,000. Democratic Representative Andy Kim's lead

Starting point is 00:28:13 over Republican Curtis Bashaw in the race for New Jersey's open Senate seat is 6%, according to a June 2024 poll from Coefficient. The percentage of voters who said they support Menendez's independent bid in the same poll is 3%. Menendez's approval rating with New Jersey voters in August of 2023, before the indictment was announced, is 36%, according to Monmouth. Menendez's approval rating with New Jersey voters in March of 2024 was 16%. The percentage of New Jersey voters who said Menendez should resign from his Senate

Starting point is 00:28:45 position in an October 23 poll from Stockton University was 71%. And the percentage of New Jersey Democrats and Republicans, respectively, who said Menendez should resign from the Senate is 78% and 79%. All right, and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. All right, and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. Scientists at Northwestern Medicine in Illinois and Brigham and Women's Hospital in Massachusetts have made a breakthrough in researching the autoimmune disease lupus. In July, they published research noting a series of discoveries that hint at a cause of the disease and provided valuable information in seeking a cure. We found that if we either activate the AHR pathway with small molecule activators

Starting point is 00:29:28 or limit the pathologically excessive interferon in the blood, we can reduce the number of these disease-causing cells, said Dr. Jae-Hyuk Choi, one of the authors of the paper. If these effects are durable, this may be a potential cure. Northwestern Now has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership.

Starting point is 00:29:59 As Isaac mentioned at the top, there is going to be a special Friday edition covering the Secret Service. We're also gonna be releasing an interview with Bill Gage, a former Secret Service agent. And Isaac and Ari will be back this weekend with the Sunday podcast. We'll be right back here on Monday. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a fantastic weekend, y'all. Peace. podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the

Starting point is 00:30:45 podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website.

Tangle - Senator Bob Menendez (D-NJ) guilty on all counts.

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