Tangle - Sending cluster bombs to Ukraine.

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Starting point is 00:01:00 From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking with a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about a very controversial decision by the Biden administration to send cluster bombs to Ukraine. We're going to talk about what happened and share some commentary from the left and the right on that decision. Before we jump in, though, a couple quick promos. First of all, did you know that you can become a Tangle member? We have over 60,000 people on

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Starting point is 00:03:24 the event or go subscribe to the YouTube channel. If you've done all three, then you're one of my favorite people ever. All right, with that promotional material out of the way, we're gonna jump in with today's quick hits. First up, Larry Nassar, the former sports doctor serving 175 years in prison for sexually assaulting U.S. gymnasts, was stabbed at least 10 times in a Florida prison yesterday. He is reportedly in stable condition. Number two, Turkey has agreed to advance Sweden's bid to join NATO, all but assuring a new member to the alliance. Turkey had previously sought assurances on its own efforts to join the European Union in exchange for voting Sweden into

Starting point is 00:04:11 NATO. Number three, heavy rainfall across the Northeast caused flash floods in New Hampshire, Vermont, and the Hudson Valley of New York. At least one person died while road closures and power outages were widespread. Number four, Hill Harper, the actor best known for his role in The Good Doctor, announced his plans to run for Senator Debbie Stavano's seat in Michigan. Number five, a grand jury in Georgia is being seated on Tuesday that could make the decision on whether to charge Trump for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. President Biden making a crucial decision about one of the war's most controversial weapons. For the first time, the U.S. is including cluster munitions in a new military aid package to

Starting point is 00:05:05 help Ukraine fight against Russia. The weapons are capable of causing massive damage. They carry smaller bombs with the ability to spread out over a large area. However, they also put civilians at risk. The Pentagon announcing the move today after President Biden signed a waiver to transfer the controversial weapons. Cluster bombs have been banned by more than 120 countries, but that list does not include the United States, Ukraine or Russia. This is a fast moving situation because a lot of key U.S. allies are now criticizing this decision from the United States to supply Ukraine with cluster munitions. The U.K., Germany, Canada, New Zealand, they've all come out

Starting point is 00:05:46 against this decision, all saying that they don't believe these weapons should be used. U.S. officials confirmed this weekend that they plan to provide Ukrainian troops with cluster munitions, a controversial explosive weapon that has been banned by 123 nations and criticized by human rights groups for its tendency to indiscriminately kill civilians even long after hostilities have ended. The cluster bombs were included in a new weapons package for Ukraine that was unveiled on Friday. In the package were 155 millimeter DPICMs, an acronym for dual purpose improved conventional munitions. DPICMs are commonly referred to as cluster bombs or cluster munitions and are designed to dispense smaller bombs or bomblets over a larger area.

Starting point is 00:06:32 They can be dropped from the sky or shot from the ground or sea. They were first used in World War II for destroying multiple targets at once, and Ukraine has said the munitions would be useful for attacking Russian forces on the front lines. Cluster bombs are considered exceptionally dangerous for two main reasons. One, they are not precision weapons, but are designed to spread across a large area. This means they often kill unintended targets in the vicinity of a war zone. Two, the bomblets can fail to explode and then detonate months or years later, killing unintended targets. President Biden said sending the weapons to Ukraine is a difficult decision, while White House officials have responded to criticism by noting that the weapons they approve for Ukraine

Starting point is 00:07:15 are newer versions that leave behind far fewer of the quote-unquote duds typically responsible for killing civilians. However, the International Committee of the Red Cross said dud rates, the percentage of bomblets that don't detonate upon impact, has been between 10% and 40% in recent conflicts. The Pentagon said these cluster munitions have dud rates below 2.35%. Those same bomblets are also small, misshapen, and can be colorful, which has attracted children to pick them up and try to play with them, only to be maimed or killed. In 2021, there were 141 casualties from cluster bomb remnants, 97% of whom were civilians. Two-thirds of those were children, according to the international campaign to ban landmines cluster munitions coalition. Neither the United States,

Starting point is 00:08:03 Russia, nor Ukraine are on the list of 123 countries that have signed a treaty not to use cluster munitions. Interestingly, the decision has caused some Democrats in Congress to break with Biden, while the move has received tepid support from congressional Republicans. Despite how effective they can be on the battlefield, the U.S. has previously resisted the urge to supply cluster munitions. The Biden administration's ultimate decision to include them in the weapons package fits a pattern of initial resistance and then allowance, much like its decisions on long-range HIMARS rocket launchers, F-16 fighter jets, Abrams tanks, and Patriot air defense systems, all of which the administration initially resisted supplying before ultimately sending.

Starting point is 00:08:46 Today, we're going to take a look at some reactions from the left and the right, and then my take. First up, we'll start with what the right is saying. The right is divided on the issue, with some strongly supporting the move and others opposed or concerned about it. Some argue that this should have happened earlier and we must do what we can to ensure Ukraine's victory. Others suggest this is a bridge too far, one that seeds a moral high ground to Russia. Others suggest this is a bridge too far, one that cedes a moral high ground to Russia. The Wall Street Journal editorial board said Biden is right on cluster bombs for Ukraine. Our only criticism is that the decision could have done more good earlier, the board said. Cluster bombs can be very effective, and Russia has used them against Ukrainians from the start of the war. But 123 countries, not including the United States, Ukraine, or Russia, have signed a

Starting point is 00:09:46 treaty banning their use because the unexploded bomblets can harm civilians years after the fighting has ceased. U.S. bombs have a dud rate of 2.35 percent, compared to rates up to 40 percent for Russian cluster bombs. Biden has been criticized by members of his own party, who say the move blurs the moral high ground. But Ukraine isn't seeking to use these bombs against civilians, the board said. It wants them because they are running out of other munitions and figures they can compensate for some of the advantage Russia still holds. The greater risk to Ukrainian civilians is from Russia's invading army and indiscriminate weapons targeting. army and indiscriminate weapons targeting. If you can't see a moral distinction between Russia's aggression and Ukraine's use of cluster bombs for defense, then you have the blurred vision.

Starting point is 00:10:31 An American thinker, James Poplar, called it yet another diplomatic and military failure for an administration that can't shoot straight on foreign policy. Because cluster bombs release many small bomblets over a wide area, they pose risk to civilians both during attacks and afterwards. Unexploited bomblets can kill or maim civilians and or unintended targets long after a conflict has ended and are costly to locate and remove. The so-called failure rate of this unexploded ordnance or UXO in military parlance, can range from 2% to 40% or more and can remain active for many years, perhaps indefinitely, Poplar said. That's why they are currently prohibited by 123 states. Having seen children in Asia with limbs missing due to cluster bombs

Starting point is 00:11:18 strewn during the Vietnam conflict, this short-sighted action will haunt us for generations and rightly so, Pabler said. Another generation of children will have to suffer because of the ineptitude of decision-makers far removed from the field of battle who take no responsibility for their callous and misguided actions. It is ethically and morally wrong to provide or even sanction the use of cluster munitions by a third party, just like chemical and biological weapons. Once the genie is out of the bottle, he is hard to put back in. In Spectator, Mary Dzejewski wrote about the troubling question of Ukrainian cluster bombs. When this war was only a few months old, Amnesty International published a report condemning cluster munitions used by

Starting point is 00:12:01 Russia. There were accusations of war crimes and Western outrages against Russia's uncivilized way of war, Dzejewski said. Now, a few days before the NATO summit convenes, President Biden has announced that the United States will deliver similar weapons to Ukraine. Biden noted that Ukraine is running out of ammunition, and the unspoken challenge to doubters was, do you really want to be complicit in Ukraine losing the war? It is only fair to note that no laws or conventions are being broken here. The United States is not in the treaty against cluster munitions, so it is within its rights to provide these weapons. The ethics and optics are another matter. If Ukraine really is low on munitions, it is in a double bind. Not only is its war effort in trouble, but any use of

Starting point is 00:12:45 cluster bombs, even if they can be presented as more discriminating than those used by Russia, cannot but weaken its claim to occupy the moral high ground. In extending this help to its protege, the United States risks tainting it too. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. Many on the left oppose the move, arguing that the risk is too great to civilians. Some argue this will make the war worse and is a case of flawed moral logic. Others suggest it isn't just a moral, but also illegal. The New York Times criticized the flawed moral logic of sending cluster munitions to Ukraine. President Biden said the U.S. will supply cluster munitions until suppliers could catch up with Ukraine's shortage

Starting point is 00:13:36 of conventional artillery shells, a key weapon in the static warfare in eastern and southern Ukraine, the board noted. With Ukraine using up ordinary artillery shells at a huge rate, the United States alone has sent more than two million rounds to Ukraine, the cluster munitions, of which the United States has a bountiful supply, could give Ukrainian forces an advantage in prying the Russians from their trenches and fortifications along the 620-mile-long front. Besides, Russia and Ukraine have been using their own cluster munitions from the outset of the war. This is flawed and troubling logic, the board said. In the face of the widespread global condemnation of cluster munitions and the danger they pose to

Starting point is 00:14:15 civilians long after the fighting is over, this is not a weapon that a nation with the power and influence of the United States should be spreading. However useful, the rules-based international order have drawn a red line on weapons that pose a severe and lingering risk to non-combatants. Cluster munitions in this conflict have already led to at least dozens of civilian deaths and serious injuries. It is Ukraine's decision to choose what weapons it uses in its defense. It is for America to decide which weapons to supply. defense, it is for America like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported

Starting point is 00:15:14 across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. dot ca. In MSNBC, Hayes Brown said the war in Ukraine is already horrific, but the U.S. is set to make it worse. Sending such weapons will not only undercut much of the moral high ground the West has taken in the conflict, but it will also threaten the safety of Ukrainian civilians. Those costs would make any victory against dug-in Russian forces a pyrrhic one, Brown wrote.

Starting point is 00:16:05 That heavy toll on civilians is why cluster munitions are banned under international law. Some congressional Democrats support banning the export of the weapons altogether, which had the Biden administration reaching out last week to lay the groundwork among allies to try and smooth things over. Of course, the situation in Ukraine is a little different from most. Of course, the situation in Ukraine is a little different from most. This isn't a case like Yemen, where Saudi Arabia rained down U.S.-supplied cluster munitions for years, he said. In Ukraine, the civilians who would be at risk are the very people the Ukrainians are trying to protect. Any cleanup campaign would fall on Kiev to undertake once the war is over. But no matter what promises Ukraine makes about how these weapons will be used, the cluster munitions in any theater isn't worth the price.

Starting point is 00:16:47 This is a decision the Pentagon should rethink immediately before even one of these weapons can be shipped off to the front lines. In the Washington Post, former U.S. Senator Patrick Leahy, the Democrat from Vermont, and current Senator Jeff Merkley, the Democrat from Oregon, wrote about why they are opposed to this decision. This is a serious mistake, they said. We voted for billions of dollars in military aid for Ukraine and strongly believe we must continue to help the Ukrainian people defend themselves against Russian aggression. But supplying Kiev with cluster munitions would come at an unsupportable moral and political price. Knowing that these weapons cause indiscriminate terror and mayhem, both of us, like many others in the international community, have worked for years to end their use. They undeniably offer battlefield advantages, but using them would compound the already devastating impact of the war on civilians and Ukrainian troops, with effects

Starting point is 00:17:40 lasting for years to come. In Laos and Vietnam, clustered munitions deployed over 50 years ago continue to maim and kill civilians. While modern U.S. munitions have lower dud rates, those that fail to detonate can be activated by anyone who encounters them, whether a child or Ukrainian soldier or anyone else. The decision also violates a law one of us wrote that prohibits the transfer of clustered munitions with a failure rate greater than 1%. All right, that is it for the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So throughout this war, I've been a pretty staunch advocate of Ukraine's right to fight like hell, by almost any means necessary, to protect its land and independence. In my most recent piece to that effect in May, I wrote about not holding Ukraine to ridiculous standards that

Starting point is 00:18:38 we aren't holding Russia to. To that end, I think the best argument for this transfer goes something like this. Cluster bombs are already being used in the war by Russia and Ukraine. The cluster bombs being sent to Ukraine are far safer for civilians than the ones both sides are using now. And Ukraine is making the decision to use them in their own territory, perhaps the most significant point in all of this. Ultimately, they plan to win the war, and they are accepting the risk these munitions might pose to their own civilians in order to achieve that goal. My guess is most Ukrainians are probably on board for such a plan. I agree with the president that this is a difficult decision. Yet even with all of the above taken into account, I still think it's a mistake.

Starting point is 00:19:21 There is a subtle but important distinction here. Ukraine is well within its right legally and morally to use these weapons. But the question of whether we should supply them to Ukraine is separate. It's true that the United States did not sign the treaty against cluster bombs. It's also true that we should have. After all, it is mostly American-made cluster munitions that have caused so much civilian horror over the last few decades. Perhaps the most poignant note in all of this came from Senators Merkley and Leahy, who pointed out, under what the left is saying, the fact that our cluster bombs are still going off in Laos and Vietnam, 50 years later. Sure, these modern weapons might be safer and more reliable, but we are going to send a lot of them,

Starting point is 00:20:03 which means there will still be a lot of unexploded bomblets scattered throughout eastern Ukraine. Each cluster bomb can open midair and release 72 small grenades to explode on impact. Let's say, conservatively, we send 100 cluster bombs to Ukraine. I imagine it will be orders of magnitude more than that. That's about 7,200 bomblets. And with a dud rate of roughly 2.5%, that amounts to around 180 unexploded landmines sitting in Ukrainian territory from just 100 cluster bombs alone. Again, I understand Ukraine's desire for them, and I believe the Ukrainian military leaders who think it might help them open up new angles for winning this war. But we are talking about a decision that will be felt for decades, well beyond the end of the war and well beyond

Starting point is 00:20:49 the borders of Ukraine. The United States has the blessed and cursed position of being a world leader in all things war. The reality we face is that when ghoulish authoritarian leaders like Putin invade a sovereign country, we are expected to come to the rescue. It's also true that we sometimes act like the authoritarian and ghoulish leaders, invading sovereign nations on absurdly concocted premises. This was an opportunity to distinguish ourselves morally from the same leaders we condemn. It was an opportunity to take a moral high ground that could set a standard well beyond this war, but we've opted against it. I expect we will and should be judged accordingly.

Starting point is 00:21:39 All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Bill in Wayne, New Jersey. Bill said, how do you reconcile your views that could be seen as almost, quote, free speech absolutism with the consequences it can sometimes have? Ideally, you would be right, and anything that is particularly wrong or crazy would get drowned out, but we do see unneeded suffering amongst people as a result of misinformation. Average election workers facing threats to their lives comes to mind. I recall you following the guidelines of not naming mass shooters due to the contagion effect, but do you see the need for similar attempts to hold back in any other topics or forms of speech? So this is a great question, Bill. Thank you. In the past, I've said things like, quote, I'm something approaching a free speech absolutist. I say that because I oppose

Starting point is 00:22:23 nearly all kinds of censorship, both by the government and corporations, hence my arguments for combating misinformation and my belief we should stop calling everything a conspiracy. But I'm also careful not to say that I am a free speech absolutist, especially given that this term is pretty hard to define anymore. Elon Musk has called himself a free speech absolutist, which in the strictest sense of the word, absolute should mean that he believes people should always be able to say whatever they want. But he clarified that he meant he is against censorship that goes far beyond the law, though he would ultimately muddy those waters as well. The law already restricts some kinds

Starting point is 00:23:01 of speeches unlawful. Yes, the First Amendment guarantees our right to free speech, and that's something that I think we all value and support. But that doesn't extend to true threats, a category of speech that includes incitement to violence or symbolic acts like cross-burning. It also means that I can't, as a journalist, knowingly publish lies or falsehoods. Both examples you listed, spreading misinformation and threatening election workers, are covered by these unlawful exceptions to speech, and I think that's a good thing. You mentioned how we don't name mass shooters entangled due to the contagion effect, and that kind of policy is an example of what I'll call self-censorship. A lot of conservative commentators like to highlight how common this is in left-leaning environments like college campuses,

Starting point is 00:23:44 and I've echoed their criticisms repeatedly, but self-censorship is a pretty common and necessary social rule. As a journalist, I won't endorse candidates or name mass shooters, but in my social life, I'm also not going to talk about certain opinions I have with friends that I'm certain will really offend them, like bringing up gun rights with someone whose family member was recently shot. So your question is actually pretty easy for me to answer, I think. I'm not an absolutist. I think the examples you listed are and should be against the law, and there are unending examples of when it's good to hold back and urge to say something provocative. There are other times when it's a bit trickier. In a Los Angeles Times story on Musk, Brian Merchant writes about how

Starting point is 00:24:25 Musk banned Kanye West, now Ye, shortly after allowing him back onto the platform for posting a star of David that looked like a swastika. In these instances of legal but broadly offensive speech, there can be a lot of gray area. And I think it's important to recognize that reasonable people can disagree on a case-by-case basis on what kinds of non-legal consequences are appropriate in those situations. I just happen to lean very strongly in favor of letting that kind of speech live and be criticized. All right, that is it for your questions answered, which brings us to our under the radar section. A new U.S. Geological Survey report indicates that at least 45% of tap water in the United States

Starting point is 00:25:12 is contaminated with so-called forever chemicals. These synthetic compounds, known collectively as PFAS, don't break down our bodies and build up in our water, food, and environment over time. Studies have found that high levels of exposure to them are linked to negative health impacts, including an increased risk of cancer. This research builds on previous findings that these chemicals are found in nonstick and water-repellent products like cookware and food packaging. Axios has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section.

Starting point is 00:25:51 The estimated number of cluster bombs dropped by the U.S. in Laos was 270 million. The year of the last bomb that was dropped by the U.S. in Laos was 1973. The estimated number of unexploded bombs that were left in Laos is 80 million. As of 2018, the rough estimate of the number of people who were dying due to unexploded cluster bombs in Laos each year was about 50. The estimated number of submunitions in the U.S. stockpiled today is 728.5 million. The estimated number of cluster munition attacks attributed to the U.S. and Syria between

Starting point is 00:26:25 2012 and 2018 was 630. All right, and last but not least, our have a nice day story. A community in Australia is rallying around an 11-year-old boy to replace his stolen bike. Zach, a resident of Manly, Australia, started an online apparel company called Manly 2095 to save up money for a $3,000 e-bike he had his eye on. Zach also went to the street market every weekend for several months, working to save money toward his goal. At the same time, he contributed 10% of his earnings to the children's charity Royal Far West to give back to the community.

Starting point is 00:27:03 When his family's home was broken into and his bike was stolen, the community decided to give back to the community. When his family's home was broken into and his bike was stolen, the community decided to give back to him, setting up a GoFundMe page to help Zach's mom, Renee, purchase him a new bike. He's a really loved kid and a genuinely good human being, so I think that's another reason why the community have backed him, Renee said. Yahoo News has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. Yahoo News has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As I said at the top, a quick reminder, please consider supporting us.

Starting point is 00:27:34 We have three great ways to do that. One, you can become a Tangle member, retangle.com forward slash membership. Two, you can buy a ticket to our event in Philadelphia, August 3rd, our first ever live event, retangle.com forward slash live or three, you can go subscribe to our YouTube channel, Tangle News on YouTube. If you've done all three of those things, then, you know, share the podcast, share the newsletter, share our website with somebody you know and love who is interested in opening their mind to a whole new world of politics. We'll be right back here same time tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.

Starting point is 00:28:11 Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by John Long. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager. podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. For more on Tangle, please go to retangle.com and check out We'll see you next time. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease.

Starting point is 00:29:14 Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older,

Starting point is 00:29:35 and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca.

Tangle - Sending cluster bombs to Ukraine.

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