Tangle - Suspension of the rules. - Father's Day special.

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

Coming up on todays episode of Suspension of the Rules, Isaac, Ari and Kmele are joined by Executive Producer Jon Lall and Tangle editor/father of Isaac Saul, Bailey Saul for a special Father's Day edition of SOTR. It's a good one!Ad-free podcasts are here!To listen to this podcast ad-free, and to enjoy our subscriber only premium content, go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was hosted by: Isaac Saul and audio edited and mixed by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Jon Lall.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Lindsey Knuth, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Coming up, a very special Father's Day episode, John Lull, out from behind the producers' deck, and my father joins us for the show. It's a very good and unique show. You guys are going to enjoy this one. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the suspension of the rules podcast, a place where you typically get some level-headed and nuanced debate on the political happenings of the day. But today's a very special episode. We're calling this The Father's Day episode.

I'm here, as always, with managing editor Ari Weitzman and editor-at-large Camille Foster. But we have two special guests this afternoon, which I'm very excited about. The first is John Lull, our executive producer of the show. Round of applause for John, who does all the hard work behind the camera. Now out in front of the camera. And then that beautiful, burly voice you here in the background. keys rattling. That's my father, Bailey Saul. Dad, welcome to the show. Anything to say aside from the keys or?

No, good to see you guys on screen. It's fun to be here. Thanks for having. We're glad to have the. This is a unique episode. I'm not entirely sure what's going to happen in the next hour, but I'm excited for it. I'll set the table or pull the curtain back on the tangle happenings a little bit, which is we were just, you know, we've been talking about different holidays. We always check the editorial calendar. What sorts of stuff can we do tied to specific dates on the calendar that are interesting, you know, like the 250 anniversary and Memorial Day happens, how are we going to navigate that, that sort of stuff. And we saw Father's Day up on the calendar and something occurred to us.

I can't remember if there's my idea or someone else is on. honestly, might have been John's. But what occurred to us was that we had this really interesting spread on the tangled team. I am obviously a father of a one-and-a-half-year-old, which I talk about sometimes on the show. John has a daughter who is how old now, John? Four? She's four. Four.

And then... One on the way. One on the way in a couple of months. I didn't want to be the one to say it. I didn't want to be the one to say it. Yeah, I don't know if I officially announced it or anything, but yeah. I was pregnant with the second kid. It'll be in late August or early September.

Very excited for that. And then Camille has two children, four and six, close. I'm not eight, eight. God, I was going to say eight, but then that felt too big of a spread. Eight, four and eight. And then my father has three children, three boys, of which I'm the youngest. So he's in like the older your kids are grown state. And then Ari has his first child on the way.

and we thought this was a very special moment in time that would never happen again with this sort of one person on the team in kind of the pre-dad but pregnant wife phase all the way up to my father who edits the newsletter every day who has three grown children and maybe we could do something fun

for Father's Day to talk about it. So I invited everybody on. I thought this would be a special way to celebrate. So first of all, a happy Father's Day to you, dad, and to the rest of the squad. And I don't know what you say to people whose wives are pregnant, Ari, but I guess... We're going to have to navigate that throughout. It's pending Father's Day.

I feel like the Nepo baby where John checks the box that I was supposed to bring to. So I'm just like, yeah, yeah, right. I also have a dad. Happy and pending Father's Day. So, okay, really quick, one thing that I want to get out of the way now, because it has already become distracting for Camille, and I suspect it will become very distracting for our listeners very quickly,

is that you might notice throughout the podcast that when my dad and I speak to each other, we use Old English pronouns. We call them the Quaker pronouns. The Quaker pronouns. So you'll hear us, you know, instead of saying you to my dad, I will say thee and thy instead of you and your

and thine instead of yours. so I might say like, Dad, can they please figure out how to plug in thy fucking microphone? For instance, might be an expression you hear me use in the pre-production of the show. Camille asked as we were interacting,

am I mishearing? Is something going on right now? Why does Isaac keep saying me and I? I can't believe he's not been glued into that long ago. But, of course, you are the newest of these associations for us. So, no, it's, yeah, that's something that, well, and my father would have explained it. My father would have explained it by saying it's very much like the French familiar versus formal, the Q versus Vu. Tiu is the and Vu is you in the French parallel.

So the Zion, thine, you know, the first time my classmates heard FV from a sibling was pretty shocking and hilarious to that. It's especially funny in those contexts where you use archaic or Shakespearean English to curse and wish a pox upon someone's house or whatever it is. But, yeah, it was a gift from my mother because I guess both of my parents had Quaker in their families. It's also weirdly addictive. I think before the end of the show, I think one of us is going to slip in teasing it as well. Before the end of the show, what? One of us is going to slip into using it too, at least once.

Yeah. My wife has started using it with me and my son now. Now that he's here, she hears me using it with him. And so she started to pick up on it, which is kind of a funny thing. And it's so helpful, like, you know, in a setting like this, when there are other people in the room, I know exactly when my dad is talking to me and not to somebody else. And when I'm in a larger group of my family, it makes it very clear and specific too.

I'll tell one quick story about this and then we'll really start the show. Though this is very close to the Father's Day stuff. Just a year or two ago, I was sitting at a restaurant in Philadelphia next to a table of women, three women who are out to dinner. And one of the women at the table was reading text messages off of her phone between, her and her aunt where they were saying the and thy to each other and another woman at the table was like wait why do you guys talk like that and she was like well like my grandparents are quaker and so it's this kind of like old english quaker thing that's sort of and i was like phoebe and i like stopped in our

tracks and we were all just like listening to the table and then finally i turned around i said i'm sorry to interrupt but i just couldn't help overhear you talking about it's like my family also uses the and thy pronouns and she was like 36 or something and I was like 34 33 at the time and both of us were like we had never met anybody who had this experience it was the first time either of us but she was like from the Philadelphia area like my family is on my dad's side and yeah there was just some weird descendant of the Quakerism that had that had come down so one of the really convenient things about it is that if you guys we're all family and I use the word you, you would all know I was talking about more than one of you.

Because if I'm saying thee, it's always singular, always. Yeah. And you is not like that without thee and thine and thine. So thine is yours and thine is yours and thine is your without the as. And thee is you. But yeah, it's very convenient for that. So, you know, if I'm talking to all three of my sons, And I say, when are you coming?

I don't have to say guys. They know I mean all of them. We have the reverse of that in Pittsburgh where it's you for anybody, but yin's for plural, which also works. Yins for everybody. All right. Yins for all of us. Yins for all of us.

Let's start here. I think I am curious to hear from everybody. We'll start at the beginning, which for us is our own father. before we get into our experiences or forthcoming experiences in fatherhood. So I just, well, I'm going to time back, you guys. I have to manage a show of five very talkative people now who all have feelings. But maybe in a minute or two, we could all go around to start and describe our first memories of our own fathers, whatever's burned into our brains.

And why don't we start with you, John? I feel like you've earned the first swing at this, given how much time you have to spend behind the camera listening to us gab without being able to say anything. I appreciate that. Well, I mean, I don't know if it's the first memory, but it always springs to mind. I have this memory of my dad and I'm playing soccer outside.

And where I lived, there's a bit of like a hill and also like a kind of an incline. It's a little hard to describe, but I just remember I'd kick the ball up this incline because I thought, you know, that made me look strong or something like that. My dad went to go chase it, and he like tripped on something and came tumbling down the hill. And it's like a long tumble, and I was like scared. I was like, you know, I hope he's okay. I got down to the other side and he was on his back and he just starts laughing.

And I just, I don't know what it is about that, but it just, my dad was a complicated guy, but he knew how to laugh about things. And he had like a tough life. So like for him to just like fall and like just like crack his head and his back was hurting and everything like that, but he still laughed about it just because he thought it was so goofy. That's like the kind of thing I remember about him on top of all the other things. but he was just like, he was game for a laugh, which I appreciate it. Ari, how about you next?

That's a great memory. I remember a lot of things from when I was really young. I have a lot of memories from, like, learning to walk even, like being pushed in a stroller and being carried by my mom. So a lot of my early memories are my mom. But the earliest that I can remember from my dad, I think I might have been like three maybe. we were putting up signs to advertise a neighborhood garage sale and yard sale event that was on our call-to-sack of like 10 houses or so.

And my dad brought me to the end of the street with our other neighbor, Vince, Vince Miller. I remember, big guy with a very Pittsburghy accent. And Vince and my dad were stopping cars that were passing us and asking them if they thought, the location they had put the sign in was going to be noticeable for vehicles that were driving by. And the only thing that I remember was one guy was like, yeah, I don't know.

I think the grass might grow up and block that. So I'm not sure. And Vince was like, yeah, the garage sale is next week. So we think it'll be fine. He's like, yeah, if you leave it there, like the grass might go and get it. He's like, all right. And then the guy drove off.

And then my dad's like, I think we don't have to worry about that. I was like, Dad, is he right, though? Like, maybe the grass will grow. And he's like, it's going to take a couple months, kid, like, for the grass to grow that tall. So I think we're all right. And I just remember that answer not being convincing. I guess as a three-year-old. I'm like, I don't know. I think that grass might grow. I think I might be right. Very particular R.E. memory there. There's some depth of that. All right, Camille, you're up. Well, you know, I should clarify that the man who raised me is not my biological father. My biological father did not have much of relationship with him.

And while I have some memories, I don't think that they're worth sharing. But my dad, the thing that I, and this memory, like, always plays back in my mind, is us having a race. And my dad was a little over 20 years older than my mom, who had me when she was quite young. and at, you know, eight, nine years old, I am aware of the age difference. He's an older man. And I guess I'd just never seen him run. He was an athlete.

He played football, actually, as a kid, and he played before the NFL was fully integrated. So he played for the semi-pro Negro team. And, yeah, he beat the hell out of me in this race. And I just, I remember a starting and me feeling, extremely confident. And then I just heard this roar come from beside me. And he accelerated and just took off and housed me.

And I was so impressed by this man who I was sure as a kid I would be. And the fact that he didn't let me win is something that has always stayed with me. And it's something that I have used as an excuse to just embarrass my children whenever I get the chance. When we're competing in some sort of athletic competition, there will be a day when they be me at things, but they will know that day and they will remember it. But for now, Daddy is still vital and he can still hop in the ocean and swim labs and he can still outrun you and out lift you and out everything you. So, yeah. I know that this wasn't the question, but like, Bailey, do you remember the first time you were beaten by your kids in like an athletic event? Good question.

Do I? Yeah. I'm still waiting. Yeah, fucking right. Yeah, fucking right. No, I remember noticing when they could start to out throw me. They had to get through high school to be able to outrun me. I was still pretty quick in my late 30s and early 40s. And in fact, when, you know, there are kids in our summer, ultimately, who come into the league who have told me their dads remember me.

and I asked them, well, what does your dad remember? And this kid says, he said you were quick as shit. And I said, see, that's accurate. He's got a good grasp on how things were. And it's funny, I mean, my earliest memory of my father was probably, you know, setups. They're evoked by photographs we have of family portraits that he took, mom and the four kids, you know, at certain ages. And I remember we always had fun and we were laughing as we set this up even though we were

dressed nicely. There was always joking going on and it was a, it was sort of a sweet family time. But I also have a memory very much like Camille's where I discovered the athlete that my dad was and where I got some of my own athletic skills and speed. I hadn't really known that he played soccer all through prep school at Germantown Friends here in Philadelphia and then was captain of Harvard's soccer team. And like many Ivy League sports, they were way better than people gave them credit for. And so we had a little game of touch football at his mom's place on Westview Street in Philadelphia, big beautiful backyard.

And I was an eighth-grade track star who was just confident I was going to roast this poor old pot-bellied son of a guy. And, you know, I was getting ready to run around the end and just escape him. And everywhere I went, he was standing in front of me. Wow. I could not get away from him. And we actually talked about this the night before he died because he had ALS and lived three years with that disease with the help of Wonderful Healer in New York, which is all another story.

and the cat was with him and his wife while she was feeding him dinner and sat on the phone which dialed me up and I was sort of whistling on the phone and Judy noticed it picked up the phone and said oh Bailey's calling and picked up the phone and I said no Judy you called me and she said oh I'm so sorry that must have been Nora the cat's ass called you actually if it wasn't me but let me give you to your father and she handed him the phone and we had a lovely little chance that and somehow this episode came up. And after I described how he was, I said, I remember that he was everywhere I went in front of me standing.

Then he said, I seemed to remember scoring untouched around the left end. And I sort of hung my head and went, yeah, yeah, goddamn it. Yes, that's true. That's true. He did. So he also roasted my ass that day. And it was at once one of my most embarrassing but most enjoyable humiliation. You know, when you realize that the old man actually has some prowess, he sucked that gut up and just let it, you know, let it lead him around the yard way faster than I could.

That's good. I like that there's a theme developing here. Though my first memory, I'll say, of the dad is less physical. Though I do have very, I have very early memories of sailing together in Cape Cod and being on the boat and being kind of like on a little sunfish or catamaran. and being terrified while the kind of work the things and ducking the boom every time it came around. But I think my very earliest memory is actually food-related,

which is hearing thy voice yell out that breakfast was ready, and then like tumbling down the stairs or from the family room and fighting for position with my older brothers, Noah and Rubin, to like await pancakes or bacon. And usually getting,

steamrolled and then kind of circling back and like begging thee for seconds and getting slipped bacon or pancakes or something that I missed from the first round. Yeah. So my, that is like my most distinct early memory is just being in line for food at like at the kitchen counter waiting to be served pancakes and just like wanting so badly for there to be enough left over for me after my brothers beat me to the kitchen and then like, or if they did beat me just like showed up and threw me into the back of the line and then took the pancakes uh and the always finding one to make sure i ate which i appreciate it helped me grow um so time job yeah um i love it wow it's very distinct all answers i wasn't

sure what everybody was going to say but uh i like the there's like a there is a good athletic trend here we're now camille you have a boy and a girl john you're have a girl, and I can't remember, do you know the gender, or are you waiting to find out of incoming baby? No, we know. We have another girl on the way, which I'm stoked about. I'm very excited about that. That'll be interesting to see Lille's as a sister to a, like, another girl that, yeah, we'll see

how that'll work out. How about it? Maybe a relevant, we can make this a useful exercise for John. I'd be curious, advice, Camille and dad, I suppose, on interest. introducing baby one to baby two. That seems tricky. I don't know if what the strategy, Camille, you had an almost exact same age spread, right?

Camille, four-year-old to that's what John's going to have. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, well, those, right, there's, the first thing that you have to do is just clarify that this is not a toy. You know, this is not. a new activity for them, though it can be in certain ways.

And they can be, they can help with this activity. But I distinctly remember the being on the boathouse booth table just a few months old. And Noah wandering over and he looked like he was just going to see if those eyeballs might pop out. Those come out. And I'm like, Noah, no, no, we're not going to try that.

No. Camille, what did you do when you... Because of course, Isaac's constant expression as a baby was... W.D. I was... I was a lurchasey brothers bouncing around the room. Yes, a kind of oblivious astonishment in the early days, like constantly amazed by everything.

You know, it's funny. I think gender differences are not really a thing, except they are. And my daughter has had this innate kind of maternal... thing going on. And as soon as Cohen came home, we didn't really do much in the way of explaining how to handle him or any of that other stuff.

She just seemed to intuit it right away. And she wanted to cradle him. It was very gentle. And it was really extraordinary to see. I think for me, interestingly, John, I fully expected that number two was going to be a girl. I had just, after four years, you become so accustomed to being a girl dad.

And when we finally got, pregnant again and it took and that is, I always feel strange thing that we got pregnant again, but I've done it. I think the theory that I like with that, Camille, is like, we may get pregnant, but she is pregnant. Yes. She's carrying and she's pregnant. She's doing all the work. We have now achieved pregnancy. Yes. And she's doing it. Yeah, we achieved it. I certainly helped in the making and the practicing and I enjoyed that. But you're a good man, Charlie Brown. Thank you, sir. Thank you. I should have medals. It was wonderful. But I fully expected it to be another girl.

And I can remember the kind of shock and surprise, not quite disappointment at all, but just shock and surprise. And I was like, oh, it's a boy. Like, I'm going to have a son. And then when he arrived and shut up, an experience I've had over and over again since he's gotten here is just having these moments of recollection

related to my own childhood and upbringing in a way that I just didn't with Leah. With Leah is just this persistent love affair. and me kind of falling madly in love with this girl. And with Cohen, I just, I see myself in him all the time in ways that quietly surprise me. John, what's your strategy going to be home, taking the baby home from, I'm sure you've thought about this and read a bunch of stuff about it? Just, I mean, well, really quickly, just to follow up on something, Camille said, Summer had imagined that this was going to be a boy.

And I said, I was kind of trying to will it into existence, and I wanted it to be a girl, because I really enjoy being a girl dad. And the day we got the call, Summer was so confident. She was just like, the person called, and they were like, all right, you ready to know the gender of the baby? Like, yes.

And Summer's like, yeah, sure, whatever. It's going to be a boy. Just go ahead and tell us. It's like, it's a girl. And Summer's reaction was, what? And mine was yes! I win!

The odds are that your second child will be the same gender as your first. That's simply most likely. And if you have two of the same gender, the odds increase that the third will also be of that gen. Interesting. I've in fact-checked that,

but it sounds right. Yeah, that feels authoritative. It feels authoritative. Just in terms of Lil, She seems excited to be a big sister. So, you know, like many, many, many kids her age, she's obsessed with Frozen. She calls herself Elsa,

and she's now eagerly awaiting her Anna. So I think it's going to be fine. The one thing, though, I will say this. And this is like one of those things that just, it's kind of just amazing what you think kids know and what they are aware of. But she said to my wife the other day, She said to Summer,

Mama, I know you're going to be busy with the new baby. So I'm going to be spending more time with data, and I'm really excited. Oh, that's nice. And just like, that's like big girl stuff right there. I can't imagine. Like, I don't remember being that self-aware. I think I was like smashing Ninja Turtles on the ground or something like that.

How old is she? She's four. Oh, yeah. I encountered very briefly Lille's in you interacting. at your home over a year ago now. And I think I would describe her as like borderline problematically precocious. Problematic is right.

She's like, she's reading, she's writing, she was reading. No one will believe us either, which was strange, but she was like reading at like two and a half. You're right, I don't believe that. I'd buy it. Believe it.

I'm so terrifying that she could just like actually make out words. I think it's mostly just that she's a great memory. So she can like, if she hears a word she sees it, she knows how to repeat it. But I mean, it's all it is, really. That's all it is. The first word that's surprising words and letters. The first word I read was an exit sign. Like, that's kind of cheating. I think that's how it works. Yeah, I like that. You know, this whole gender thing was funny because we decided not to find out the gender of our second pregnancy. And we were on the way to Cape Codward, our very active first boy,

Rubin. And we sat in the booth next to a couple who had a boy and a girl. And we asked them, they said, we see you're pregnant, do you know what it is? And we said, no, we're trying to decide whether to find out or not.

And I remember my mother asking them, which do you think is easier? And they sort of thought for a minute and then they said, It really doesn't matter. I mean, one beat you up physically, the other does it emotionally, you know, meaning the boy and the girl. So it, you know.

And Baru's thought that mother's philosophy always was, oh, I want a boy. They're just so much easier, you know. Feed them and give them a warm place to sleep and poop and they're going to be fine. And essentially, I mean, you know, if you really wanted to distill it down to stupidity, it can be that simple. And I think we were lucky. I mean, they all enjoyed each other's company. They still do, even though Isaac was definitely abused early on. We had to keep an eye on that.

Thank you for acknowledging that. Yeah. He definitely got the crappy end of the stick more often than we intended. And when we had a young man living with us in high school, we got to a point where I had to have a little discussion with him that his quickest ticket out was to join Isaac's older brothers in ganging up on him. And that that was something up with which I would not put, as my dear old dad used to say. Shout out to Benos, who's a regular podcast listener, probably teamed in right now.

And he was very emotional and sweet about that and complied instantly. And I asked him if he was okay. And his reply was to say, yeah, of course, I just wish I had a dad who, you know, took up for me the way you do for Eisen. And that just, oh, God. One of my many sons. So, yeah, those things were interesting, those encounters with other pregnant people early on.

I do think I've learned, you know, we were, when we had Omri, Phoebe and I's only experience with our siblings and their kids were all nieces, daughters. And so, like, we had this vision of what it was like to have a two-year-old or one-and-a-half-year-old and how they would behave, you know, in a room while everybody was eating dinner. That was solely defined by three well-behaved girls, which has not been my experience with Omri. It's really odd.

He won't, like, sit down and color for 30 minutes straight without any interruption. He's armory the barbarian. Yeah, he just kind of waddles into a room. And my new thing that I've been explaining to people, they ask about, like, his behavior. And I say basically, any time he sees a new object, he has this three-part test he does, he tries to see whether he can spin it because he's really obsessed with, like, tires and stuff. So he gives it a quick slap and sees if he can spin it. If that doesn't work, he puts it in its mouth, puts it in his mouth and tries to eat it.

And if eating fails, then he immediately tries to break it. And basically it's spin, no. Can he eat it? No. If not, okay, smash time. Spin in just no smash. And literally, Phoebe just a few weeks ago brought home this beautiful wooden lamp that goes in our dining room. That's like five feet tall.

And it has these like nice little ridges that are all beautifully carved. And yeah, we set the lamp up. He woke up in the morning. did a double take on it, went over to it, ran his fingers across it, didn't work, grabbed it, tried to take a bite out of it, that didn't work, and then immediately just started shaking it and smashing hits the wall, seeing it. I was like, I don't know what this, what to make is behavioral style. Yeah, it's been different than all the little girls I know.

And what I've gleaned is, you know, the girls tend to develop that kind of behavior or more advanced. They're a little slower physically at that age, but are better, like, verbally and have longer focus. And, you know, on average, not a rule, just a generality. But I've certainly observed that. We'll be right back after this quick break. I guess here's something that this all makes me think,

like, as a, I guess, a jump ball to the room. But I'm thinking about Ari. sitting here with incoming baby. And I'd love to hear like one core tenant of fatherhood that you tell yourself as like an act of wisdom that I'll, that we could sort of impart on to Aria or offer up maybe as advice to him or other fathers listening on this Father's Day episode. I will go first to sort of set the table. And this is one that I got from a dear friend of my name Camille Foster, who told me before Omri was born, he said, or actually maybe it was shortly after Omri was born, he said, don't spend any time looking forward to the next phase, just enjoy the one

you were in, which was great advice, because when Omri was like a week old, all I could talk about or think about was like, I can't wait until he can walk and talk and whatever. And Camille was like, dude, you will miss this part. And every stage it's like Don't waste any time wishing that he was in different place Just enjoy the one you're in Which has become a mantra that I give to myself Whenever Omri's like

You know he's going through some stage or something Where he's like grabbing or biting And I think I can't wait for him to get out of this And I'm like no I will miss this part I'll miss this stage I should embrace it and enjoy it Exactly like listening to Fay Thy niece talk about her little brother

other. Well, he can't play yet. He can't talk yet. He can't do all the things he cannot do yet. And that she can't wait for him to be able to do. But now that he's doing some of them, you know, I think the old careful what you wish for sequence is about to arrive because he's getting a lot more attention, of course. But yeah, that's. Yeah.

All right. So fatherhood mantras slash advice may be that you catch yourself saying to yourself that maybe you'd impart on a soon-to-be father, as if there were one on the podcast right now. And pretend that he's, like, open to hearing it. Well, maybe I'll go second here. And Isaac, thankfully, gave my perhaps best piece of parenting advice. The second, though, is one that's for when they get a little bit older,

Ari, since you got the early advice. I have to constantly remind myself of this, but I think it's really important to take their questions seriously, however kind of strange or ridiculous they may be, even when you're getting that kind of recursive, why, why, why? I think there's something important about just respecting these tiny humans and taking their inquiry seriously so that you're constantly in discussion with them. As Isaac mentioned, this whole paying attention to the phase that you're in,

they're constantly becoming these new people all the time. And there is this aspiration for my part to be in kind of constant pursuit of who they happen to be in the present moment. And I think one of the best ways to do that is just be in dialogue. And it's so easy, like we get so busy. We have these demanding jobs and lives that are filled with all sorts of other stuff. and you're getting the questions, and it's easy to just kind of blow them off, especially when it's a kind of a silly,

a ridiculous question. But taking the time to slow down, take a beat, and actually address their questions, I think it matters. I get the sense that they appreciate and really do understand when they're getting meaningful attention from you.

Yeah, that's a good one. I will say with the nieces and nephews I have at that age, at the Y age, I struggle with that. And sometimes I ask questions that I'm like, you know, like, why are there thunderstorms? Why does it rain like that? I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know the answer. They're great questions. It makes me realize, like, I really wish I could remember seventh grade science.

I'm like, there is cold pressure and warm pressure and the clouds come together and it creates moisture. Yeah. Yeah, they're like, well, why? And I'm like, oh, I don't know. Nothing about this is easy for me to remember. Yeah, that's a good one. Any others open for? I mean, again, a lot of this stuff just comes later.

Those first few months are just, you know, they're precious. They do go really, really quickly. I don't even know where the time has gone. Sorry, give me one second. Hey, Sam, we're recording like a whole episode right now and you're like doing the most. She just came in and like pulled the door open.

She's like ripping paper. Yeah, it sounds like she was tapping on a keyboard. Thank you. If you want to summer up here and flexing her pregnant belly, you have to go to our YouTube channel. I love it. You just made the episode, babe, just so you know. You're looking good, don't.

The later advice is it may be a little bit of a tag onto what Camille is saying there but just understanding how much they want to be witnessed they just want to be witnessed. They just want to be seen. Like everything they do

that is kind of just like oh look you you drew a line on a piece of paper like it's you know after the hundredth time they've done it, you're kind of like, yeah, okay, I've seen the line. Good job, yeah. Right, right. But they are just like so, like, hoping for you to be so impressed and thoughtful and loving about what you say to them.

Like, and it's, it can be hard at times to remember kind of, again, in that pursuit of being a provider or whatever it is. but just I tell Summer and we try to make this like a thing all the time, we never say what to our kid. We never say what to Lilia. So she says something,

she says, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da. I always say, yes, darling. And that's just the thing because I want her to know, like it's no trouble. Whatever it is, I might be doing something,

but I see you and I know you just want to be seen as well. Ari, what's the, Like, where are you at mentally right now? Because you're getting close. We're getting close. I'm curious.

Like, take me back to... I'm trying to remember what I was going through at, like, eight and a half months or whatever it is. But where's your head out? Are you feeling like wholly prepared, terrified? What's your current state? For me, personally, I think that I've been telling people for going on nine months now is... As much as you can ever feel like you're ready, I don't know. I

when I felt like I was kind of ready for that step to be a dad we weren't in a good place as a couple yet in order to like be able to have a kid we weren't even engaged when I felt ready like I felt a paternal drive so when I felt that feeling I got a dog

and my dog's 12 so that was a minute ago yeah so like I've I've been looking forward to this for a while And when people are like, man, it's getting close. You're nervous? I'm like, no, I'm not nervous. I think like it'll happen and the things that happen will happen and we'll get through it.

The place where we're at as a household is I live with a person who is a professional researcher and a serial planner. And we're just a year and a half into our home. So I have been with somebody who has been nesting for 18 months. and now my wife has taken off work, so she's officially beginning her leave starting this week. And it is overdrive. The floor mats and the cars are getting washed and scrub down. It looks like we just had a vinegar clean of our cookware's downstairs,

according to the things that I can smell. And the baseboards are getting clean, and she has a lot of drive right now. I can kind of see the nesting phase, even for somebody who's a nester, is getting kicked up another notch. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the nursery's ready. It's been ready for like a month. We've got our lists. The lists have been printed out for like a month. So now we're like going back over drafts and revising.

It's very much what you would expect from a household with like an editor and a professional researcher in it, I think. Yeah, that tracks to me. Yeah, there's no. I'm going to be very curious to see when this baby arrives and in what fashion. Because having just done it so recently, it was nothing like what, it was a little bit like what I imagine. Well, mostly nothing like what I imagine, especially for me because as I told in the story that I wrote in Tangle, it was basically the best 24 hours of my life because the commanders had just beaten the lions. game. And then I came home and Phoebe told me, I think I'm going into labor

right now and I just immediately started weeping. It's like, this is the best day ever. Yeah, and so I just, I'm excited to see we've got some, there's plenty of gambling going on behind the scenes in the Tangle Slack channel. But

I'm curious to just see how the arrival actually happens because, you know, I was... The actual date and all that? The actual date. and just like what's going on? What's going to go differently? What could we have not anticipated?

I'm excited about that too. I mean, as much as I'm nervous about the fact that it's an enormous medical thing that's happening to the person that I love more than anything in the world, like it's the most interesting things in life are the things that you're sort of like hanging on to, like a rodeo steer.

And I think anytime things go 100% according to plan, it's like, I don't know, does it feel like it has the full sense? of life to it. So whatever ends up happening, I'm also very curious to see what it is and I'm eager for that experience. Yeah, there is a... Go ahead, Camille. We'll be right back after this quick break. Oh, sorry, it was me. I've got a question that's kind of actually related to this that I wanted to ask everybody, but this is kind of like, I want to get Ari's answer to this now and then

his answer later after the baby's born. But the question I have is, What's something you worried about during the time of pregnancy that ended up not being a big deal after the kid was born? If you're asking me first, I don't know enough yet. I think the thing that I'm, but like the thing that I've been worried about the most over the last month, I guess it's just like what position he's in in the whim. Just like we've seen now a couple sonograms where he's in this particular position. he's like very well located the way that you'd want him to be and he's descended even in the last couple days

but every sonogram he's got his hand up to his face like this like he's sort of like ready to punch or he's on the phone and I'm like I hope he's gonna he's gonna be able to like control that arm when it comes down he's gonna be able to move it like what does that mean does it mean like

is he sucking his thumb is he gonna have a weird like tick where he touches his face too much I think I touch my face too much is that something he's gonna get from me Or is he going to be like a fight? Does he even come out punching? We had a friend who said their kid came out punching the world. Is that what she meant by that?

Or is it like bad? Is this arm forming weird? Just means he's already working. Yeah, I don't know. It's just where his arm is. So like those thoughts cascade a little bit. And then they kind of quickly go. And I'm like, yeah, it's just where his arm is.

I guess we can't control anything about it. So we can't worry about it. But that's as much as there is a thing that's worrying me. It's just like, is he ready? Is he like set up? well right now and I'm probably going to be asking a version of that question for 80 years. I think that it's a good, John, I would say my pre-birth worry was like selfish, very, I mean, transparently, very selfishly, like how much less time I was going to have with sort of friends

and to party and travel and go out and just like, you know, enjoy the night life and just like knowing that this was going to be this huge limiting thing. And I think what I underestimated was just how much immediately that would all seem like meaningless and didn't really matter at all and hasn't. Like, A, I still, it's actually not that hard to like travel with kids. I think that's a totally overblown thing. I hate to, maybe that's going to upset some people. I think it's a totally overblown thing.

I have a one and a half year old. It's getting harder. I'm sure it gets harder. I'm sure there are periods where it would be. really hard, like certain ages and stuff. But I have friends who have like two or three kids who I feel like they've figured out how to travel with them as a group and I've witnessed it. And I'm like, so like the traveling hasn't really been impeded that much.

And like I definitely go out less and spend less time of my friends like socially. But the times I do are so much more joyous and eventful. And I'm never like at home putting Omri to bed. like, God, I wish I was out right now. It's just like a very rare... I feel like my framework has changed so much so quickly. And I really thought that was going to be... I was going to have like terrible fomo and whatever.

And it's like, no, I just like, I actually want to be home with him. And I want to be fresh in the morning when he wakes up at 6 a.m. screaming like a banshee and like ready for that. So I don't want to stay out till one in the morning or whatever. And I think like that changed the most for me from what I was worried about before

versus what actually happened after? I never really got to mention my early parenting advice, but we also had a dog first who basically adopted us while we were taking a trip across the country and shortly after we were married and Cleo rode with us from the Navajo Nation in Arizona out to the west coast, up to the Pacific Northwest, back through Chicago, and home to

Maryland on, you know, basically a three-quarter trip around the country sat between us in the little Nissan. And when we got home to Tacoma Park and she came in the house and smelled us everywhere, she knew the trip had ended. And this was going to be it. And that was really fun to watch. and she taught us amazing things just by her existence. So I think both of us felt we were much better prepared for our first child than we would have been had we not known this dog or had this dog. And, you know, I think Camille's advice of enjoying every phase as they're happening and don't worry about the next one is critical.

my father loved his work and so I don't remember seeing him much at all in my formative years which is why my earliest memories of him were so few and far between it wasn't that he didn't care for us it was just the way things were at that time in those days

and Isaac's mom and I were Peru and I were very much into the equal sharing you know you couldn't have kept me out of the kitchen making food for these boys. And of course, when Rubin went to daycare initially and started going into kitchen and cooking all his classmates breakfast, all the moms wanted to know, who's modeling this for this child? Bruce said, oh, his dad. Yeah, his dad is in the kitchen all the time. You know, and this was my great joy. I mean, it's one of the things you do. It's the modern day

equivalent to hunting for the family, you know, as much as shopping is. So I always enjoyed that. And my advice would just be enjoyed the time. I was determined to spend more time with them at a young age than my dad did with me. And I think that's shown huge dividends for our relationships over the years. No question about it. And theirs, all three of them together. It is interesting the way the parenting time share has changed over the last few decades. I just read this piece from Derek Thompson a few weeks ago about this,

about just like the millennial dad, my generation, is spending more time with their kids than ever before. And like my dad's generation spent more time with their kids than the previous generation, just how much it's shifted. And it's still, you know, across the country in America, at least on average, moms are carrying more of the like the parenting workload, which I'm sure would not surprise anybody. But just like that shift,

has been, I think, really impactful on society as a whole and is, you know, creating this, like this current generation of dads, I feel like who are finding a balance between work and child care. That's kind of unlike anything that's happened before. I saw an interesting video, you know, I mean that I think in like the popular culture, it is a very common thing. You know, you read like the Atlantic or something. There's all these think pieces about all the ways like dads are falling short. It's still a, it's still like a cultural topic. And I think on the whole, there's probably a lot of merit to that in terms of just the weight that, you know, the mental load that moms carry.

But at the same time, it is an interesting, you know, I was saying, I saw an Instagram video of this woman who is like, shout out to all the millennial dads doing something they've most. of them have like never seen modeled before. You know, which is, I mean, what my dad just said is true. Like, for me, he was always super involved coming to all of our sports games and chaperoning Frisbee and he coached the teams I played on and made dinner and every night. And like, like, I very much felt like he was present. But I think for a lot of millennial dads my age, they sort of experienced the last generation of fathers who were not that present, who were really work dominant.

yet now they're doing something they've never really seen modeled, which is kind of like an interesting modern day phenomenon. This is a politics show. So I did want to inject a little bit of politics into what has otherwise been a very lovely conversation. And I guess I'm curious to hear how you might talk about the state of the country to your children right now, which is interesting. my dad's answer to this, I think, will be different,

given that I'm a grown man who writes about politics for a living. For us, the parents of young children, like, you know, and Ari, this is one I mean as an expectant father, I think you could answer too, like how you imagine you'll talk about the country to your child. Or how I might talk to my grandchildren about it. I think I know how you would because I'm in the dock with you every day. So I think you can go straight your answer if you want.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I'm curious. And maybe we can start with you, Camille. Like, what, yeah, what do you, what's your framework for describing America to your children in this kind of moment that we're living through? That's a, it's a really interesting question. I mean, it's not as though they don't, they aren't being primed with things at school. My kids go to school in Marin County, California, just outside of San Francisco. So unsurprisingly, they have heard all sorts of horrible things about Donald Trump and the kind of destructive, awful menace that he is. They just call him Trump.

I hate Trump. And they'll talk about the things that they hate and they mention Trump. And I, perhaps true to form, attempt to complicate the picture just a little bit. And I also talk to him about he's the president. And we in this household, we love America and we respect the president. And I do try my best to the extent it's possible to help them understand that the country itself is this kind of unique gift, that plenty of other people wish they could live here. They know that Gigi, my mom is from Jamaica and that my family immigrated to America looking for a better life. So I at least introduce these concepts.

And certainly there are challenges. but I think my own perspective formally is there are challenges in every era. And I hope at least that America is not in decline. So I certainly don't tell them that. And to the extent there are things that frighten me and concern me about the state of the country, I'm not talking to them about that yet. And I'm not sure what the right or appropriate age will be for talking about that. I think the thing that is best to understand is that the present moment is so remarkable.

and so much better than what preceded it in virtually every way imaginable. So I can kind of be my dispositional optimistic self in that context and just try to help give them a sense of the context that they find themselves in. And I hope that takes hold. I don't know that any of that is working just yet. I don't know that either of them are particularly patriotic. Cohen does talk about the military a bunch. But I think that's just because he's in that.

face. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I also there's no, you know, I don't think I'm going to be communicating to Omri anytime soon about the virtues of a free country, though. I imagine when the time's right, I think the thing I'll emphasize is we're incredibly lucky to live in this place and you, as an American citizen, have all these extraordinary rights and you should exercise them. not just like the right to vote, but also to speak your mind freely and not be scared of repercussions for that. And just like sort of those, these are like fundamental virtues of being here that you should embrace and embody and not take for granted, I think, and hopefully expose him to experiences traveling and seeing other places where he can understand the ways America's. falling short and also the ways America is, you know, uniquely awesome, which I still believe it is. But like that is something I hope they get. I mean, I think from my dad, I definitely got,

you can speak your mind and nobody can tell you to shut up or they can tell you, but you don't have to listen. And like that, and I think the idea that it was like valuable to care and be engaged and be civically minded. My parents both sort of imparted on me. Like they paid attention and they cared and they voted and had opinions. And you don't have to shield your opinions and it's okay. You can be honest about what you think. I think all those kinds of, you know, they're not unique to America,

but they're uniquely American too, which I think is cool and is like a really positive thing. I don't know, John, do you have thoughts about how you, how you navigate that or how you might navigate it in the future? I mean, sort of. I feel like one of those things that I've learned is, you know, they'll kind of come to you with questions and I'm trying to, you know, make sure that I don't want to put too much on her or like, you know, muddy the waters for her.

Like she may end up being completely different from me, I want to make sure that I am able to embrace that. Like, I wonder how many parents who are politically active are like fear that like, oh my gosh, you know, if you're a Republican, my kid's going to be a Democrat. Like, that could be crazy. But, you know, I think that it's important for her to be able to, you know, take in everything and be able to come to me and for me to be able to openly talk to her about whatever it is that she's feeling. I think the thing, I hope that she takes away is maybe what I did when I was a kid. I, again, two immigrant parents who came to this country, it was very hard for them. But somehow they just worked.

They were just so determined to give me and my brother a fighting chance. And I want my daughter to understand that this is a place where that can happen. that you can make your chances happen. That's not the case everywhere. And America is a unique place to, you know, encounter diverse political thought. And it's a place where you can say how you feel, even if people don't like it, you get to say it anyway.

I want her to understand that. I want her to feel empowered by that. Just really briefly, one thing that I remember, I talked to a friend who, you know, was kind of talking a little bit about how she didn't, you know, she thought America kind of sucked and whatever. And she went abroad for a little bit, came back a few months later. And we had had that same conversation again. She was just like, I just never realized how much I loved America until I was somewhere else.

So all that to say, I kind of agree with Camille here on that idea. Like, love your country. It's a great one. You can be respectful of people and still disagree with them. And that's the beauty of this place. And it doesn't mean it's perfect. It's never meant that. Yeah.

Nope. It's always been a work in progress. Yes. And she gets to contribute to it next. Dad, I'm curious how thee would not just talking about it now, but I mean, thy father was also extremely politically active and involved. Yeah. Both my parents were ahead of the curve when it came to civil rights,

Vietnam War protests. I was being a marshal at anti-war protests by the time I was 13, 1968. I remember watching the American Nazi Party come around the corner. And, you know, this was one of those conflicting moments where you realize, yeah, they have a right to say something, too. don't have to like it, but I'll defend to the death their right to say it. Then they started engaging the crowd. And they were in brown suits, jackboots, swastikas on the armbands, the whole nine hats and everything, company of about 40 of them. And they started engaging what we noticed

were only the women in the crowds and trying to yank signs from people's hands. Well, then all the guys started stepping up to the front. And the guys started getting very chippy with these Nazis. and we called the D.C. police who were by then pretty good at this kind of thing. They'd been doing it since the very early 60s. This was 1968. And we said, you know, these peace-loving hippies are about to jump the barricade and beat the snod out of all these American Nazis. You might want to show up, 15th and G. You know, and about, I don't know, two minutes later we started hearing a noise like angry hornets. And 50 DC cops come around the corner on their little Vespascooters. They parked them right. in the middle of the street.

Big blue Department of Corrections bus follows them in, and they each escort Nazis and give them the choice. You can stay here and converse with the crowd, or we'll give you a free ride out. Of course, all the Nazis chose their free ride out, which my father loved and was very hasty to remind everybody up. But he was, you know, the joke among my older cousins, and almost all of them were older because he had four older sisters.

And the joke there was, if you want to sit down and have a politics discussion with Dixall, you better pour yourself a tall one and pull up a comfy chair because you're going to be there a while. And that was my dad. I mean, he was, you know, he had no. It's funny because that's exactly how I would describe me. Yeah, yeah, I guess I inherited that as well. Yeah. Ari, I'll give you the last word here before we start to wrap. But any thoughts or feelings about how you might frame a country that you live in to an expectant son who you don't have yet?

It's tough because probably the things that are on my mind now won't be relevant as much in four years or three years when the conversation is going to be ready to be heard and had. I think I'm going to have a household that's pretty rich with music and reading and speaking. And one of the things that I know my boy is going to be raised with is the works of the great American author Mark Twain. And I evoked this quote a lot. So I'm sure you guys are maybe used to hearing it for me. But Mark Twain said, loyalty to your country always loyalty to your government when it deserves it. And the way that I interpret that is, like, we are all. all here together.

There's a concentric circle of morality. Like you have the requirement to do what it takes to take care of yourself. And then to help your family, help your community, your state, your country, humanity at large. And your country is an essential part of that. So when the country is doing something, you're going to be there to either help it course correct or support it. And if the government is doing something that you don't like, it is your right as an

American and your privilege and your expectation responsibility to try to work towards changing it if you feel it's important. And that, again, probably not something I'm going to welcome a newborn into the world with looking them into the eyes and saying like, a little bit of a load, yeah. But like, a thing that I'm cognizant of is I was raised as kind of a suburban kid, I didn't really feel a sense of being connected to a greater culture. Like, I didn't really have something that was what. What is the way we do things?

How do we do things as X group? And I think that's something that I'm excited about with being in Vermont. Like, I'm going to have a kid who's a Vermonter and I'm not one, which will be weirdly alien at some point. But there are things that, like, I think this is the way we do things here. We know the names of the trees and the animals around us. We go outside no matter of the weather and we have the right clothing for it. We don't complain about it.

We help people and we don't talk about it. We just do it. Like someone's on the side of the road. You get your winch out and you send them on the way. You need help. You ask for it. You get it. you're a little embarrassed and then to move on.

And like, that's kind of a culture that I'm excited about pressing forward into this boy and then seeing him, like, become a Vermonter and knowing that I'm not quite one. As he becomes an American, I'm not sure. Like, I think, I think I'm, I wanted two people on this call who wrote a piece for Tangle about loving America. So I expect that there's going to be a healthy amount of appreciation for the country in this household. But as he grows up, the country that we're a part of and the country that he's going to help shape are going to be different. And then we're going to be really open to what that looks like as it happens. I would say that part of that is going to be shaped by what happens and in the time that he's growing up

and point out that I felt very much at sea politically and sociologically sort of from the time I was, well, from the time Kennedy, was shot and killed. Because that was inconceivable to me. That was not even a possibility. And when I was first told, I wouldn't believe it was true. Until I saw people weeping and watching the TV and then understood that it was true and how effed up this was and that this was really goddamn serious. You know, the world had been reshaped somehow.

And then when it continued to happen through the next three, four, and five years with his brother, Martin Luther King, you know, it's, there's only so much a parent can do to shape the view of a child who is subjected to that is how I will look. There's a really transformative era. You really, yeah, there's nothing to prepare you for that. And, you know, saying how this country is can just change like that. So that that's how it was, you know, before this moment in time. But country, yeah, and I think that's, that's, that's,

also part of what's responsible for my energy about those kinds of things because it became cleared very quickly that things could go off the rails a lot faster than we thought and that was harrowing, very harrowing. Gentlemen, I'm going to end this with a quick happy Father's Day monologue to each of you. Camille, you're a role model for patience and thoughtful with children. I think you're, I think the, I think the lesson of enjoying the, uh, enjoying the phase you're in is a perfect encapsulation of your view. John, the ultimate, open-hearted, sensitive kind.

The, uh, the, the yes, darling. Um, not something that I, I'm saying a lot of what. I'll tell you that. Me personally, uh, what, what do you want? Um, but, you know, you're, uh, you're, uh, That's a good one to reflect on. It is. Yeah, you're the North Star for that.

I respect it. Ari, expect him father. You're going to be an awesome dad, dude. You will be tremendously curious and open-minded and thoughtful with your children or child, as it were. I'm super excited to see what you're like. Also, very interested to see what sort of things blow your mind. And dad... How much you love this little thing.

Yeah. Dad, happy Father's Day. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming on. And to be. Yeah, and relevant to this show. Thanks for reading me the newspaper when I was a kid. Every morning, New York Times, Washington Post.

Sometimes it was just the sports section, but still kind of inculcated a love of journalism and writing in me. And also, always openly loving thy children. and nobody would ever accuse thee of being a, an ashamed father. Standoffish dad. Yeah, yeah. Full of hugs and kisses and very long monologues about how incredible we are, which I don't take for granted. We got a lot of that too, so I have to give credit props to my folks for both of those.

That's good. It passes on, yeah. I have to regularly separate my father from somebody who's, you know, like, Dad, they don't want to hear the story about my high school story. championship, also at Frisbee, but always, always wrap in. So all of that goodness and loveness is one big happy Father's Day to each of you. I'm glad to be thought of the idea of doing this episode. Like glasses, don't write me an email.

For some reason, Isaac, you asshole. Too much. No, no emails about the Mother's Day episode. This was just a perfect alignment of stars. We made it happen. And we're going to, we will honor Mother's Day in future episodes and places. We've honored some moms too here. So I want that to.

As well, we should. We like moms. I see, as well, we should. Yeah. I just, I know there's going to be at least one email about why we did a Father's Day episode and now the Mother's Day episode. I'm going to get defensive about it. Well, they didn't listen to the episode. So you can.

Yeah, that's right. They didn't listen to the end. That's critical. That's a critical point of it. Make sure to send that email to Will. Yeah, that's a good place to follow all your complaints. Speaking of complaints. All right.

Now, yeah, speaking of complaints, now it's time for all of our favorite times of the week. Today we're going to have to be quick because there's five of us. We can't let this take a full 30 minutes. But John, this is usually the part where I say, John, play the music. But instead, you're here sitting with us on the show. So maybe, John, you could kick us off. with your grievance for the week. Yeah, sure.

I'll be quick. My grievance is a little sad, but also just, you know, it is the thing that it's a true grief. I'm truly grieving. My dog of 13 years died this week. That was really, really sad. My grievance of that is dogs should live forever.

All pets, all animals should live forever. It's not fair. Or at least as long as we do. At least as long as we do. Yeah, go with me. What's up? Like, just come, like, we should go together. No, I think forever's right.

There's been a bunch of them to deal with. I don't know who's picking up all that forever, poop, but, you know. They just get smaller and smaller and smaller. Plankling fooop, yes. All right. Ari, your grievance for the week? It'll be animal-related as well and brief. Something that that kind of reminded me of was when I was,

is finishing up writing the take this morning, from the desk in the bedroom, a macker to thud on the window, and there is still a dead bird on the window, so I'm realizing, and I'm going to have to go take care of that once we get off the skull. Don't want that hanging around. Very sad watching an animal die, always.

So, yeah, it's like this is taking a turn, huh? Somebody makes this more fun. I guess I shouldn't have started with that. I'll lighten it up and get away from the dead animals. Yeah, please. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Really fun, lighthearted way to wrap the show.

My grievance is related to homeownership, which is one of my buckets I frequently fall into. This I could not believe. This week, a letter came in the mail telling me that I had a sewer fee to pay. The local township sending me a letter telling me that there is a fee that I must pay, on the order of about $275 for sewer maintenance, sewer fee of some kind, to which my immediate response was, what are you doing with all of my tax dollars? I would like to know why I'm paying you taxes

that go to local, state, municipal things, and then on top of that, I'm getting a bill for the sewer. And at first, I'm not kidding, I literally thought this was a scam, And then today, the woman who runs the shared office space that I'm in, I said, I caught her at the coffee machine. And I was like, hey, do you live in Maplewood? No, sorry, we got to cut that. I said, hey, do you live in blank?

And she said, I'll let you figure that out, John. And she said, yeah, I do. And I said, have you ever gotten a sewer fee in the mail? And she said, oh, yeah. They used to be $40 a year. And now it's like $300. bucks and I'm like, oh my God. So my grievance is that I pay thousands and thousands of dollars a year in taxes and then I get a bill for the sewer on top of that, which seems totally obscene

and over the top to me and could turn me to dumb libertarian like Camille. Go ahead. Camille, you're next, man. Well, you know what? Mine is real estate related as well, and that I am shopping for a home in a seller's market. And my beef this week is with highest and best, this practice of having, you know, weekends worth of open houses. And at the end of that weekends worth, weekends worth of open houses,

declaring that everyone who wants your home must submit their highest and best offer. And yeah, I hate it. I don't like it. And if I was selling a home, I'd probably be happy. But I'm selfish. And I don't like this.

And I don't want to pay. several hundred thousand or 50 or even $20 more than anyone else is willing to pay for your home. I want to pay just enough. So I'm suffering through that right now, and I don't like it. Sorry about capitalism, dude. We may be close. We may be close. We may be close.

But we'll see because I can't, I don't know how to do this. Yeah. I don't know. All right. Father Bailey, the man who taught me to complain who brought grievances to him so natural. surely and organically. I have no idea what he's going to say, but...

Oh, mine is simple and small. It's these unexpected and unwanted charges on one's credit card that one is then told are simply impossible to reverse. Well, no, wait, MF, you the bitch to put that charge on me. I'll bet you can take it off.

I said this to somebody today. I said this to two people day before yesterday, out of three, and I said, is someone holding a gun to your head? Because otherwise, I'll bet you can do this. And I, you know, I don't pay Walmart to shop at Walmart. The profit is built into the products. I don't pay Sam's Club to shop at Sam's.

I'm philosophically adamantly opposed to the idea of paying you money for the privilege of going into your store and paying you more money. Let's go. If the profit you charge ain't. enough, you're in the wrong business. So I was bitching over a $13.73 in charge. Little did I know, they had done this for three months already. So I got my $13 back and $73 for each of the three months and got a $40 plus refund instead of just 1373. Ultimately, happy ending. But the gripe is that I have to go through this and I have people telling me on the phone, literally telling me these are

impossible to reverse. I almost laughed out loud, and then I just kept coming up with smart-ass things to say about it, which was great fun, actually. I got a, you know, I got a 1500 text message, 500-word text message about how my dad owned the Walmart customer service person. He told him that discharge was impossible to reverse, and he declared impossible my ass. We're getting this money back, which she did successfully. Yeah, good grievance.

Don't say that to a Taurus, please. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that Walmart did that kind of thing. But we've had some sneak charges pop up on the Tangle credit card too, where somebody uses the card for something, and then all of a sudden we've, like, signed up for some membership, which is just an obscene practice. Yeah, in this case, it was Walmart Plus,

which I do not recall signing up for and never wanted to sign up. Yeah. All right. Well, a great grievance, a great way to end the show. Father, dad, thanks for joining. I don't know why I keep saying father. I never called me that. He's never called me that in my life. Except when we were joking about something. Yeah. Camille, John, happy Father's Day. Ari, happy impending fatherhood. Appreciate all you guys. Hop on the show. and we'll see you guys next week for some real politics next week but hopefully you enjoyed this episode if you have nice things to say you can write to me Isaac I-S-A-A-C

at readtangle.com all your complaints to Will W-I-L-L at readtangle.com and we'll see you guys again soon. Peace. Peace later. Our executive editor and founder is me Isaac Saul and our executive producer

is John Lull. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman with senior editor Will Kback and associate editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsay Canuth, and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at retangle.com.