Tangle - Suspension of the rules. - Isaac, Ari, and Kmele talk about the Tangle event in Irvine CA next week, government shut down, Overton window shift and some explicit language discussions.

Episode Date: October 18, 2025

Isaac, Ari, and Kmele talk about the big in person Tangle event in Irvine CA next week. In order to find out more about that and to attend visit the link below in the description. We go on to talk more about the government shut down, the Overton window shift and some explicit language discussions.Tangle LIVE tickets are available!We’re excited to announce that our third installment of Tangle Live will be held on October 24, 2025, at the Irvine Barclay Theatre in Irvine, California. If you’re in the area (or want to make the trip), we’d love to have you join Isaac and the team for a night of spirited discussion, live Q&A, and opportunities to meet the team in person. You can read more about the event and purchase tickets here. Ad-free podcasts are here!To listen to this podcast ad-free, and to enjoy our subscriber only premium content, go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was hosted by: Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Lindsey Knuth, Kendall White, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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orders. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Coming up, the event we're hosting in L.A., the government shutdown, the Overton window shifting, and we're going to talk about that young Republican story, the group chat controversy. Also, I should say up front, some explicit language. I do use a couple slurs in this episode. That's not a joke. It happened.

You'll see why in a little bit. And I think it's a really good one. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and good evening and welcome to the suspension of the rules podcast, place where the takes are warm, lukewarm, the guys are tired. It's early morning on a Friday.

Camille's a big hot shot. I had to go on Megan Kelly yesterday, so we're recording at a different time. I'm excited. Gentlemen, I just realized that. we are a week from today we're all going to be together in southern California in person. Yes, yes. We have probably not sufficiently talked about that on the show, but for anybody listening, we are doing a live event in Irvine,

California next week, Friday, October 24th, a week from today as we record this on Friday morning. It's going to be awesome. It's at a really, really beautiful theater, the Irvine Barclay theater, you know, our north of San Diego, just outside Los Angeles. It's a really cool part of California, and we have an incredible lineup. We have Alex Thompson, who wrote the best-selling book Original Sin about basically the cover-up of President Biden's mental faculties that led to him dropping out of the 2024 presidential race. He is, in my view, one of the most well-sosting. reporters in Washington, D.C.

He seems to kind of have a beat on everything. And we also have Anna Casparian, who is one of the co-hosts of the young Turks. I think a voice for the kind of populace left in a lot of ways, though she's less predictable than I think a lot of people think. Camille's going to be on stage, doing his weird libertarian garbage probably. I'll be there. We had a, we had, I'm bummed because we had. had a couple guests to kind of round out some of the ideological diversity sort of from

the pro-Trump MAGA right. And for various reasons, two of them fell through, which I was really bummed about, obviously, given our mission and given the state of the country and the kinds of voices I want to have in the room that are relevant. But I think it's still going to be a really, really awesome show. There's a VIP meet and greet afterwards. Most of the Tangle team is going to be there. It's beautiful California. So if you live in the area, you should come out. We'll drop a link to the tickets in the show notes today. And if you don't live in the area, it's October. It's starting to get cold and crappy across the country.

Southern California is an incredible place to be in October. It's like 75 degrees in sunny every day, cool hoodie weather at night. We'll be near the beach. It's going to be beautiful. So that's my pitch. We'd love to see you. There's still some tickets left. We want to fill the house, which would be a really big deal for us.

Anything else you guys have to add to that? We should have done this like 10 times by now, but it's all right. People can buy tickets. No, you can buy tickets, get a babysitter. You have plenty of time. It's going to be a lot of fun. And I speak fluent MAGA. I've also been charged, accused of carrying water for the administration many, many times.

So I'm happy to do my very best to represent that at point of view from the stage and to grovel and to engage in sycifancy where necessary. Speaking of sycifancy, I think our audience would be impressed by how fluently we speak Californian, too. I think Camille, you've got your Bay Area influences. I lived in California for several years. I know Isaac and I for our bizarre hobby have gone to the area near Irvine a couple times for a beach tournament of the sport that we ridiculously competed in competitively for many decades.

And yeah, come on, dude, it'll be sick. Yeah, I'm hell of Cali, bro. Yeah, I'm super Cali. If you are bump bouncing around pumpkin patches in the Bay Area, you might run into me. I was at one last Saturday, I think it was. I ran into a guy and he's like, Camille. And I'm like, hey, what's going on, man? And he's like, I love Tangle.

I listen to the podcast. I read the newsletter. I'm like amazing. I work at Apple. And he told me all kinds of secrets about the Vision, bro. That's not sure. He didn't. I tried to get them out of them because he apparently works on it.

And I really, really tried hard. but he held steady. So it's great to meet you. Look forward to catching up with you some more. And hopefully get to meet a lot more Californians, although I suspect a lot of you won't be from the Bay Area. But you could totally get a ticket, fly down. It's affordable.

It's fast. Flying to John Wayne Airport in Irvine, which is the name of the airport there. It'd be great. That's so American and sick. Yes. I know our senior editor, Will Kayback, like 15 members of his family are going to be there.

It's awesome. It's his birthday that week. So they've all decided to, to send on California. They're throwing them like a birthday happy hour, Thursday night. Send your birthday messages to W-I-L-L-Retanel.com. Yeah, perfect. Well, I mean, we're going to have a lot to talk about in California.

I think, you know, that event, California is so relevant. There's gerrymandering, immigration. I think there's a very good chance that two of the top Democratic contenders for the 28 presidential race will be California heads. Gavin Newsom is very obviously going to run. And, you know, maybe is an odds-on favorite, honestly, at this point. I'd be curious what the betting market say. Kamala Harris, I sincerely doubt, is going to sit on the sidelines.

You know, I haven't read her new book, but based on some of the excerpts that I've read and the reviews of it I've read, she seems pretty convinced that she kind of fought with one hand tied behind her back in 2024 and wants another shot at it. So we're going to have a lot of relevant stuff to talk about whether you're a California native or not. Until then, there's a good bit of craziness going on, which is now just typical. We're going to talk a little bit about the Overton window shifting today,

which is something I've just been kind of ruminating on and trying to think about because it might be maybe the single most important part of Trump's legacy, actually. I'll make that pitch in a little bit but one of the elements of the Overton window shifting that we could start with is the way

we're witnessing a government shutdown right now which I think is actually really novel I had this whole thing written up about the ways in which this was different than past government shutdowns that I wanted to talk about in the podcast and then I was walking down the work today

and I turned on the New York Times Daily and their whole podcast is about this. It's like a roundtable about how bizarre this shutdown is. So, you know, I'm like an hour late on that, I guess. But no one listens to that podcast anyway. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not the number one politics podcast in the country. In the world. Yeah, we're not, just to say, I'm not biting them. I had this thought originally, you know.

But it is really true. And I'd like to start here. We're a couple weeks into this shutdown. How Speaker Mike Johnson, said this week that he thinks it might end up being the longest shutdown in U.S. history. And nobody cares. I mean, seemingly nobody cares. I'm sure a bunch of people work in the government really care. But like I would say in shutdowns of the past, there are people in my social life, you know, like normie Americans who aren't crazy religious about following the news. They're texting me things like, what does this mean for the parks or what's going to happen to, you know, my health care? paying attention like how is this going to impact me whatever i'm getting zero of that i mean there

is no not even a blip of interest from people outside like the standard political junky world that i operate in and then we have a president who just does i mean he literally doesn't care about solving it at all which is like a whole new dynamic he has no interest in reopening the government He's not taking meetings. There's nobody working behind the scenes to, like, as far as, you know, the kind of insider DC Beltway reporting that we typically get, there's always like these meetings and people are leaking and they're trying to own the narrative. And this time it's just like, yeah, we're fine with it being shut down.

We're going to fire a bunch of people. Sort of underrated story here is like America First Trump. You know, he's in the middle. He addressed Israel's Knesset on Monday, then flew to Egypt to sign the peace deal, got back to D.C. and just like all about Argentina on Tuesday, he's both bailing them out, like with a $20 billion currency bailout, and then bombing Venezuela and boats off the coast of Venezuela that are alleged drug running, like tons of attention there. He's, on Wednesday, he basically concedes, yeah, we're sending the CIA into Venezuela. We might actually bomb Venezuela.

of mainland. Thursday, it's Russia, Russia, Russia, all about Vladimir Putin negotiations. He spoke to Putin for two hours. He's going to meet him in person. And then today, on Friday, he's meeting with Voldemortlandski at the White House. Like, zero focus on figuring out anything that has to do with domestic U.S. politics and opening the government. I don't know. This seems kind of crazy to me. Nobody's really talking about. So I'm kind of curious what you guys think. I mean, it just seems like, A, it's very bizarre. that it's not a bigger deal. It's weird to have a dynamic

where nobody seems interested in solving it. Democrats too are just like they think that they're going to win this conversation, which I'm not so sure about, but they certainly don't seem that they're not like proposing any big solutions aside from solve the Medicaid cut stuff. And yeah,

and Trump doesn't seem to care and his focus is totally elsewhere. And the only person who seems to be calling this out is Marjorie Taylor Green. who's out there being like, what happened to America first? Like, why do we have a rotating cast of foreign leaders showing up at the White House when the government shut down and prices are going up and health care is about to explode?

I'm like, what? She's the one? She's the person? Like, I don't know. What do you guys think? Is this, I don't know. This feels insane to me. It feels insane to me, too.

I think there's this, I don't know if you could call it. She theory, but with the Marjorie Taylor Green of it all, there's something that I maybe disagree with the way that she phrases it, but she's really concerned, at least on Twitter, that, or X, pardon me, didn't mean a dead name that application, but she's very concerned on social media that we have all of this outsized attention being given towards Israel. And from my perspective, I'm like, yeah, that's true. I feel uncomfortable as a Jew when people are talking about the control Israel has in our lobbying and politics.

And then she goes on to say, Israel has so much control in our lobbying and our politics. I'm like, well, I think probably we want to detract from it, but then she turns the attention, like, straight onto the way that the elites and Israel and parentheses, parentheses Jews are having their imprint on our politics and controlling what we're doing. I think I kind of agree with her message. that we have this strange fascination about Israel and our country

and the fact that this peace deal dropped during the government shutdown. And my estimation, I think, is taking so much of the oxygen that, I mean, yes, Venezuela is a huge thing. Yes, Russia is a huge deal. But I think that's driving all the narrative that I'm seeing. And I think it's probably one of those things where it's as simple as our media ecosystem has the attention span to focus on one story at a time, that's the one that's driving the narrative, and that's pretty much what we've got to deal with.

So as much as I think the Venezuel gunboat, sorry, the sinking of the boats in Venezuela or off the coast of, is a huge deal. And as much as I think the government shutdown should be driving more conversation, I think that's the reason why it's not. It's just those are stories 2A and 2B, And we just have a system that's set up to focus on one at a time. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but that's the way it feels to me.

I mean, I think you're absolutely right. That is definitely a dimension of what's going on here. I think that the other dimension is what Isaac alluded to, that both sides imagine that they are winning this situation, but perhaps imagine that they're winning with just a little bit of trepidation. The president has largely kept his distance here. When everything first went down, J.D. Vance was the only person. out front talking about this.

The president had fallen back. Now you've got Christy Noem recording these statements that she wants to have played in various airports across the country, blaming Democrats for what's going on here. So they want to highlight this, but it seems that the president is happy to do it with a little bit of kind of distance between him and the actual shutdown. And you'll notice, like a lot of the conversation about the firings, it's kind of gone away. they haven't actually done the thing. Why is that?

My suspicion is that Republicans must know that there is a high likelihood that the longer this goes on, even if they manage to get this blame placed squarely on Democrats, which I don't know is necessarily likely. Some of the stink will be on them as well. I've been up in the air a lot in recent weeks bouncing between New York and California.

And in every instance, There's, you know, JFK is terrible. There are usually delays. Things have gotten materially worse. The TSA lines are longer. People are going to start complaining. And honestly, even if Christy Knoem had been successful and there weren't airports to saying,

we don't want to play this, I don't think it's a very good idea to highlight the fact that the government is in some way, shape, or form responsible for these shutdowns, even if you blame Democrats. If you are Donald Trump, you look feckless. If this minority party is in a, position to completely upend your administration. You can't do anything about it. You're supposed

to be a dealmaker. You're supposed to be a guy who gets things done. I think ultimately, the buck stops with you despite whatever other dynamics are happening here. And I suspect that that's how things are going to end up playing out in the very long run if this drags on too much further. But one other point I'd say is just we've been talking about this since January, since the president was inaugurated, that first week in office when we were getting that deluge of executive orders, this administration is particularly active. They are moving on all manner of fronts at the same time. And that is part of what's happening here.

Certainly the international scene is quite busy. But in some respects, it's busy precisely because the administration is just so active. That's interesting because when you're sending that up, I thought you're going to say this administration's showing that it doesn't have a best in interest in keeping the employed people and the government busy. And it showed us pretty early that it's, really eager to remove jobs from people in the federal government's employee. Yeah, I think that's true, too, which perhaps there's a bit of an irony there, but not really.

I mean, it's also the case that the president imagined is he can do just about anything himself directly. Yeah, I mean, those ideas are really pretty low. Yeah. I mean, they're, I think one of the reasons that they haven't gone through with the layoffs the way they promise is that a judge stopped them. which is also a familiar theme. Yeah. Well, yeah, but the, I mean, they seem to reverse some of the CDC lightoffs on their own, which, by the way, like, again, over 10 Windows stuff, like it would have been like a weeks-long scandal in past administrations

if we just like somebody accidentally fired all these super important people responsible for controlling disease outbreaks and, you know, administering vaccines and all this stuff. The Trump administration has done it like six times now. It happened with Doge. They did it with, it happened with air traffic controllers. It happened with, you know, Department of Labor. And now it's happening at HHS and CDC.

And it's just like, oh, like it's a foot, you know, it's two sentences and a Washington Post write up about the story, which is nuts to me. I think a really interesting dynamic here that is novel is that, there isn't really anything that this shutdown is about except power. You know, like, in the past, the shutdowns are always focused on sort of a singular issue. In 2018, it was the border wall. 2013 under Obama, it was a health care, like a big health care standoff.

There's no animating issue here. It's literally just like both sides. You know, Democrats are sort of doing the thing that, like, Ezra Klein kind of called for, which was like, we can't keep submitting power to this guy who's abusing his power. And they seem to be taking that tack. Like, there aren't specific demands here. They're basically just saying, like, we want the Trump administration at the table negotiating and we're not going to keep the government open and keep funding them when they're doing all this stuff that's, like, unconstitutional or illegal. And Republicans are, they're not asking for anything. They're just waiting for Democrats to bend the knee, basically, and realize that they don't, like, this is not politically advantageous for them.

So it's just this kind of really broad power struggle. The other thing that's really interesting is, in the past, the way shutdowns typically end is it becomes really politically costly for one side. And then that side comes to the table and they fold. And oftentimes it's because there's, you know, independent voters, swing voters who are sort of in the polling showing that they're moving in one direction. And then the news starts writing about that and the media kind of ramps that up. And then there's pressure on, you know, like Democrats, Republicans, whatever to make a move. And in this case, like, A, there's not a lot of swing voters left. And B, people seem just a little news fatigued and maybe not paying attention.

So now we're in a spot where, like, yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. When does the political cost come in? I'm actually not totally sure. So it kind of seems like this could go on for a while. I mean, to your point, I think, like, the TSA stuff will create some pain. But, you know, a lot of Americans fly maybe once a year or something, if that. So I don't know how many people are going to feel that kind of pain. I think, like, the military stuff, you know, that'll be costly for the right.

soldiers will get furloughed or, you know, people who work in various military-related fields, maybe, you know, they stop getting paid, whatever. That's going to be a big animating issue there. At some point, you imagine this comes downstream to, like, DHS, you know, Homeland Security type stuff that becomes problematic. And then on the left, it's going to be, you know,

the unions speaking up for, you know, all these. I mean, or Trump and Russell Ball just actually start fire. people in the way that they're promising and then they make it really painful that way. But I don't know how close we are to that. And I feel like this really could be a while. Well, and I mentioned the TSA thing, not, well, primarily because I'm selfish and I'm feeling the pain. But even if they're not feeling it directly in a given month, it becomes front page news once there are hours and hours and hours long waits at the airport for things that used to to take a lot less time.

And I think that that's true across the government and a number of areas where people are experiencing this. In fact, I'll even go a bit further. And this is anecdotal, but a lot of these people are doing their jobs and not getting paid now. They have to.

And I heard the grumbling. I was a woman I've seen at JFK two weeks in a row, the same woman in the line, because I'm taking the same flights most of the time. And she's usually smiling. And she's usually, you know, really engaged, and this time she was complaining.

She wanted to go home. She said so several times. And I'm like, oh, okay. There's something about the energy that I think is shifting. I mean, it's not even the people that we're seeing. Let's just stay with aviation for a second. It's the air traffic controllers in an administration that started with its first big scandal. Yeah.

Of, I mean, Doge aside, of crashes and issues with Newark and the, the disaster in D.C., obviously all of that stuff is still in the ether with this administration. I don't think they've really put to bed that their concerns of the FAA have been resolved. So air traffic controllers working hard hours has already been a story. Now they're being asked to do it without pay for a little bit of time, and we don't know how long that is. And I mean, I really, you really hope that something gets resolved before this stresses the system to the point where there's another disaster. Because if you talk about the politics of it, that's the grim thing to predict as what's the most likely thing to happen that could be pinned on the administration. That's probably where it is.

I mean, military personnel, postal workers, all working without pay is something that we've almost normalized with shutdowns. I hate to say it's not a big deal. That's not really what I think. But it's one of those things where I think it's something where you would read a news headline about it and go, yeah, yeah, I'm used to that. That's something that I would expect to happen. But when it comes to aviation issues, I think we expect our planes to work. And we expect that we're going to get to where we want to go without there being some major issue. And if there is a major issue, that is something that's going to be very pinnable on the administration.

We'll be right back after this quick break. I'm curious. I mean, I guess like in the larger convo, that... The Hulu original series, Murdoch, Death and the Family, dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before, starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. Watch the Hulu original series, Murdoch, Death in the Family,

now streaming only on Disney Plus. Not a billionaire, not a problem. You can still do something legendary by leaving a gift to charity in your will. Even 1% in your will can change the game for a cause you care about, without taking away what you or your family need. It's a powerful way to make your mark. Anyone can leave a legacy. Willpower shows you how.

Learn more at willpower.ca. I want to have, and maybe this is just a good transition to it, about the Overton window shifting, how much of that is going to play a role in this. I mean, there is something about a government shutdown compared to everything else that just is like a snooze vest kind of

like how do you make people care about this? I mean really it's like you read one article about national guard troops descending on an apartment building in Chicago from helicopters like repelling into a building full of U.S. citizens and kicking doors down

and rounding up a bunch of undocumented illegal immigrants, whatever you want to call them and then hauling them outside, alleged, I guess I should say, because plenty of them were U.S. citizens. Like, you read that, and then you go from that to a story about a standoff, you know, day 12 with the government shutdown and some workers are getting furloughed. It's just sort of like hard to get animated about it, I guess. And I wonder if that's going to, like how big of a role that's going to play

in just the way the public kind of digest this and the sort of pressure point where it starts to actually matter to people. I do think that's something that's really important right now. Like, you know, just to give one example, I mean, we talked about the Bill Clinton, Loretta Lynch, Bill Clinton, Attorney General Loretta Lynch, meeting on the tarmac for like 20 minutes

when Bill Clinton wasn't even president because Loretta Lynch was involved in the investigation to Hillary Clinton's emails. And that story dominated the news for weeks and was used as a bludgeon, you know, against the Attorney General and the FBI as like evidence that the fix was in. for Hillary Clinton.

And that was eight years ago or something, 10 years ago. And now in today's world that we're operating in, the attorney general is literally going to have private meetings with the White House and the president while prosecuting quote-unquote enemies of the president. Like she, you know, she's literally, in the White House, in the Oval Office, behind closed doors, and it's like a blip on Twitter, and nobody even cares.

It just feels like things have changed so dramatically, so fast. You know, what does the story look like 10 years ago if Barack Obama is indicting the former head of the FBI, or even John Bolton, like Obama, just Obama, Obama inditing, you know, his Justice Department inditing John Bolton. Pro public, I came out with an article this week. 170 American citizens have been arrested and detained during these ice sweeps. Makes noise on Twitter for like two hours.

I mean, a story like that, you know, I know it's silly to say and like bring this stuff up, but it's like we did, we literally did the tan suit thing with Obama. It's like the classic example of just, you know, the fist bump, the terrible. the terrorist fist bump between Osama, like, you know, Osama, Barack Obama, you know, whatever they were calling him, and Michelle Obama. And that was a news cycle. And I just feel like, I don't know, A, that's going to play a role in something that the government shut down. It's sort of like the connecting thought there to segment one. But B, I'm just like, it is pretty remarkable.

to think about how much our sensitivity has changed in such a short period of time. And I think that might end up being the most impactful legacy that Trump leaves behind or the Trump administration leaves behind. It's just like, you know, and I know Trump supporting folks would say, like, what about Biden? And a lot of this comes from COVID. I mean, Biden, you know, the, what we accepted as a society

during the COVID lockdowns. and, you know, Trump got indicted as a former ex-president and, like, that set a new standard and pulled the genie out of the bottle on, like, a big thing. But all of that, just the last eight years, I mean, not even just saying Trump's legacy, but just the last eight or ten years, feels like it is going to change what we are sensitive to forever

and the Overton window is just, like, permanently shifted. And I feel like that's going to have a really, really big impact in our politics. going forward that maybe we haven't totally grappled with yet. I like when you do stuff like this, I think. That was like a huge download, and there's so much there. And there's a lot of it that I just wholeheartedly agree with. I think you're right in general about the shifting in the Overton window,

about Trump's unique role in it. But I also think that some of what you flagged actually points to just kind of changes in the media ecosystem broadly. I think Tansuitgate is one of those kind of ridiculous non-traversies that sometimes end up rising to the top and it's the only thing anyone can talk about for far too long. But the Obama administration gave us some genuine, authentic controversies as well. I think the real difference, perhaps, between back then and now

is just that the news cycle is filtered not through kind of the big several media organizations nationally and the cable news apparatus. It much more so lives online. Your social media feed is, in fact, the news cycle in a way that it wasn't before. I remember when I first got over to News Corp and was there watching the way the news gets made there, I was surprised to see just how often people people were kind of looking to Reddit to inform the coverage that they would do on a nightly basis. And now it seems that, you know, journalists, even back then, we're mostly living on X, kind of having these public conversations. Now it seems that things have just kind of reached this frenetic pace where rather than having a story build over the course

of a week, you kind of, you get that story published about the helicopters and about agents, you know, deploying them from helicopters. But that's just like one. day. And then the next day, you move on to several other things. And maybe you come back around to that and maybe you see that story in your newsfeed again, but there's a very good chance you don't. So the frenetic pace of the coverage feels like it is as much responsible for our lack of focus at the moment. But I think you're also correct in general, just that the volume of scandals. And I think we've talked about this with the Trump administration before is kind of unprecedented and the kind of brazenness with which some of these things play out.

I mean, I don't know that we've talked about it here. I know that we've written about it in different context, but just the odd dynamic where the president of the United States and people close to him are just making tons and tons of money on all sorts of crazy things. The kind of various allies, new allies in some respects, paying a bunch of money to get Trump coin, which they then use to kind of complete some other crypto transaction. And then just by chance, a little later,

it looks like maybe you'll get a military base or facility here in the United States. It all looks extremely gross. But they're kind of unapologetic about it. And it seems that's enough to make it not really a big story to most people. What's enough? The fact that they're unapologetic. That they're unapologetic. so that it feels normal.

I mean, I'm asking because I also kind of don't, I don't know the answer to the major question that Isaac goes here. Like, why is this different now? I don't know. I mean, I don't either. That's something I've been thinking about and something we've been talking about a lot. And it feels wrong and incomplete to say, like, Democrats just don't do outrage as well as Republicans.

Like, what is that? I don't really know what that means. Like, it's the first thought that comes to my head, but it feels incomplete. The unapologeticness with which the administration's dealing with the pushback, maybe that's part of it. Maybe social media is part of it

could be a perfect storm. I really don't have a great answer. But in your estimation, seems like the way that they're responding to the criticism and to the controversy is part of why the window feels like it shifted so much. I think it's a combination of things here, at least the fact that they are

uniquely unapologetic, uniquely brazen about it, and that you have a new cycle that is moving at the pace at which it's moving, makes it almost a perfect storm for, I want to use the word laundering, and I'll go ahead and use it because this is suspension of the rules. You're not going to judge me for it. Maybe I don't mean it in a particular way. But it makes it a little easier to launder things

that would have created profound scandal, before, and end up just kind of landing with a wet thud instead. And I hope that gives you a kind of sensory, that sensory metaphor works well in this context. Laundering's interesting. Yeah, I'll sit with that. I mean, you know, the, I guess, like, related to the kind of the Overton window conversation, I mean, one sort of half-bake theory I have is just, sort of what Camille said.

I mean, I was thinking about it differently in terms of the media ecosystem, but we just consume so much now. You know, it's like, we're just taking in so much at once that it feels like something about that has a kind of numbing effect when you're just like, you're so in it.

There's kind of, you know, I've seen like a sort of genre of, Instagram video or like TikTok video that these couple comedians I follow are doing where they're just like sort of making fun of the insanity of the world that we have where it's like push notification that like Trump's deployed troops into Chicago or whatever and then like email from your boss like hey we're going to start using this new AI thing to craft all our emails

like you have to talk to Claude before you publish something and then you know you get another push notification about like some person who had mass psychosis from like their relationship with chat GPT. And then it's like Gaza bombing, Ukraine bombing. And then like some stupid feel good story about sports or something. And it's just like we're just in it and we're on the wheel. And so I think, you know, Trump family amasses $5 billion fortune from crypto scheme all of a sudden just becomes this like headline that's in the feed that you're sort of like

click on, whoa, that's crazy, read two minutes of the lead. Whoa, that's nuts. New push notification comes in. You scroll the next thing and we're just kind of like moved on. I mean, but it's happening so fast. Like, you know, I mean, to Ari's point, maybe there's some sort of imbalance here with like how well Democrats and Republicans leverage certain things politically and we're in a Republican administration right now and Democrats are bad at leveraging scandal politically.

And so it just feels like maybe stuff is breaking through less. But, I mean, like to the crypto point, just Camille, like what you're saying, you know, we did this, we did this with Hunter Biden over, like, was it, I don't even remember whether it was like $100,000 a month or something like the Burisma board. And it's like, dude, the Trump family has made $5 billion. Like the crypto, the value of their crypto is now larger than all of. the Trump real estate holdings combined. And they did it in like a year and a half on the back of him winning the presidency. It's fucking insane.

And like we like, it's just like we're not even talking about it. Like there's no, it feels like there's no space for it even. I don't, like it, it's just so nuts to me. I mean, you know, one dimension of that briefly, one dimension of that might be that the president of the United States already had a lot of money and has been known. as this businessman, whether you kind of attribute

a lot of credibility to the character he's played on the apprentice and the Trump brand internationally. But he didn't make any secret of the fact that he was really rich. He leaned into it, whereas a lot of other politicians kind of apologize for or obfuscate the fact that they've managed

to make a whole lot of money while they've been in office. That changes the dynamic a bit. We had a first term where he builds, you know, he's building a Trump hotel, essentially across the street from the White House and when people come and stay, that's where they stay.

That's where they're parking their money at a Trump-branded property. There's a sense in which this is a continuation and expansion on that where there was a legitimate business operation before that was Trump-branded, run by his family, and his family is just doing what they did. And they're also, but they're now in this new business, this crypto business, where they're selling these Trump coins.

And the one qualification I might offer, and I don't think it actually changed the dynamics all that much, but it is important. It's not as though they've sold off all the coin and they've realized all these games. It's possible that some of that goes to zero because it's still paper money, but it's still gross.

It's still gross. If Hunter Biden did any of this, it would be extraordinary. Hunter Biden would blush. I should say, just for the sake of, like, total accuracy, I mean, the, basically the Wall Street Journal did an analysis on this World Liberty group, whatever, which is like their massive crypto fund.

Their paper wealth is $5 to $6 billion from that, which compared to the last evaluation of Trump's real estate holdings, which was like 4.1 or something, is sort of where that comes from when I'm saying that their crypto wealth is now larger. And you're totally right. A lot of that crypto is locked. They'd have to liquidate it to realize it if they were to sell off billions of dollars of the crypto, the value of it would crash. so it's complicated.

But it's like, you know, their net worth is tied up in this stuff. And it's, you know, the real estate empire is now smaller than the net worth of their crypto empire. And that seems totally insane to me as a story about, you know, sort of just like blase corruption that nobody really cares about. And like that is just the grossness of the financial advantages that they've mass through the presidency without even talking about what it means that a Saudi prince can buy a billion dollars of crypto through the Trump fund that inflates his wealth and communicate that to like Don Jr. however they want. And then goes into a meeting with Trump

about world affairs with like that context. And we have literally no way to really know or track or pay attention to any of that because of the way that the crypto ledger works and how difficult it is and all we have is the leaks and the rumors but I mean not to be a cynic I just like if you don't think that that's happening you are a

rude I'm sorry like that is definitely happening there's so much money especially coming out of the Arab world like in Qatar and Saudi Arabia or whatever that is being flooded openly into some of the Trump properties and stuff while these

things like the Gaza negotiations are happening and these trade deals are happening. And so I can't even imagine what's happening under the table that we don't know about. And it's just, yeah, it's just like, it's nuts. It's totally nuts. And we're really numb to it, which feels wild to me. Well, I want to put the question back to you then. Why do you think we're numb to it? I mean, like I said, I think part of it is that, I think it's a couple things.

I think part of it is that the feed thing I'm talking about which is just like we're just consuming an unbelievable amount of news and it ends up just being another thing in the feed which is crazy that's one I think the second thing is that we've been conditioned into a level of cynicism

that it's just like yeah of course you know Trump is corrupt Biden is half dead and he's indicting a former president and whatever and like Obama was hope and change but he was full of shit

and it's just like you know Bush is a warmonger Bill Clinton's a rapist like it's just you just go down the list and so the expectations like the bar has been lowered so far and the cynicism so deep that it's sort of

you know it's like I mean we talked about it's a little bit last week with like the Megan Kelly stuff. You know, she's just like, yeah, he's like a self-interested narcissist and he does corrupt things, but like he's has my interest at heart

and they're all corrupt and they're all self-interested. So, you know, at least he's on my team and he's doing the things I want him to do. I mean, that's like, it's not exactly how she put it, but there's like the spirit of sort of what she was saying. And I think there's a lot of people in that mindset now.

And so it just hits a little bit. bit different. And again, I think the Trump era has ushered some of this in. I'm not trying to just blame Trump for it. You know, like there were people. I mean, Camille certainly included here at Tango, we wrote about this, who were saying quite loudly when the Biden Department of Justice was pursuing Trump, when Latisha James was pursuing Trump, like, there will be repercussions for this.

this this matters they better better better have the goods because like what goes around comes around in politics and this is a can of worms that's never been open before um and you know got a lot of shit for saying that kind of thing and now we're here and like yeah the can of worms is open and Trump's throwing them all over the room and we're living in that world like it's crazy um yeah yeah and it's and it's it's incremental you know it's like like the hunter Biden's thing. We're joking about how the Overton windows move there. But also, Hunter Biden was the son of the vice president who was doing international relations with Ukraine and he was on the board of an oil company in Ukraine making hundreds of thousand dollars a month. That's a big fucking deal.

It's a big deal. Yeah. And he shouldn't have done that. And Obama and Joe Biden shouldn't have allowed something that to happen. It's insane that they allowed that to happen. And it shifted the Overton window a little bit. And so now it's like, oh, you're piss about Don Jr. making a billion dollars off crypto? Well, like, where were you when Hunter Biden was, you know, on the board of this oil company in Ukraine while Vice President Joe Biden was responsible for diplomatic relations with Ukraine? That's really not a good look. And like, it just keeps moving a little bit. And people didn't actually care that much about it back then when it was Hunter Biden. Like conservative news outlets were covering it. but the New York Times was not like all over that story.

There was, you know, there's a couple pieces about it in Politico or the Times or whatever, but it was like, ah, Hunter being Hunter, you know, like he's a thorn in the side of the administration, not like this is a dangerously close to corrupt thing that like the administration really needs to stop. So it just builds and builds and builds and now we're here. And I'm just looking back at like how quick it happened and it feels, yeah, like what does that mean about where we're going to be. I mean, this is the same thing. Ari, you and I've been talking about this a ton,

like the Venezuelan boat things. You're like, hey, yeah, he sunk another boat off the coast. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. He did not sink another boat off the coast of Venezuela. He bombed a dozen people accused of smuggling drugs and deleted them off the face of the earth without any hearing or proof or anything else.

Like, that's what happened. And like we, but like, I catch myself even now. just like normalizing this stuff. And it's like, yeah, it's, I don't know, I feel like the ground shifting under my feet a bit in a way that feels really disorienting. Yeah, the progression is important to note. I think it's valuable to put into context

in the way you just did. And it's, even as you're talking about it, I'm thinking about the way that the stories have been discussed and debated and the way in which some of that prior context is brought forward. in order to defend whatever is happening now. And not even so much to defend it, because they barely defend it.

They just say, the, where were you when this happened before? One thing that I have noticed as well, though, is Hunter Biden in particular, people who are discussing the current administration going after Tish James and Comey, they'll say things like, at least Joe Biden, his Justice Department actually prosecuted Hunter Biden. Like, they went after him and his dad didn't step in. well, no, he waited. And then he gave him a pardon. And then he issued blanket pardons for lots and lots of people.

One might even look at that now and say, well, hey, those blanket pardons, it was totally appropriate. He made the right call. In a sense, I can totally understand. In another sense, all of it is kind of building in edifice, if you will, of kind of dysfunction, of perhaps the appearance of malfeasance,

of justice deployed in service of political ends, and of a willingness to look the other way when your side is engaged in behavior that otherwise you would probably have something to say about. I mean, the symmetries between the drone program and under the Obama administration, the Bush administration, and the Venezuelan boat situation,

should not be overlooked. They are not identical situations, but there is a symmetry there that is important. And the debates that we've had about this and about the president's authority to unilaterally kill people without sufficient oversight or any oversight in some instances

is the same conversation that we were having then and we didn't address the problem then. And that's where we are now has a hell of a lot to do with the fact that we did not attempt to put meaningful safeguards in place before. it's just it's perpetual escalation it seems and if that's the case things will only get much much much worse well that's that's something that i was about to ask though is what the right framework or most

accurate metaphor for us to use is because Isaac said the can of worms metaphor earlier and now we're in a room of worms but the thing that you're saying is escalation and if we didn't stop the train now or before now we're having a harder time stopping the train at this station. And it's not necessarily, okay, we open Pandora's box when Biden failed to prosecute Hunter. It's more that was a step. And now this is another step where we're seeing sort of barely beneath the surface exchanges of plates at charity dinners evolve into crypto donations after deals of like Qatar giving us planes for Air Force One and us saying we'll trade in your pilots, like that a lot of those stories are explainable,

but the dots are really, really, really easy to connect. And now the question to me isn't like, okay, well, we're sitting in this room of worms. Now when is it going to get cleaned up? The question seems to be, well, what's the next thing that's going to happen now? Because if that feels like the framework that is more accurate to me is like it's an escalation. framework. And it cannot go on forever. Like, there's another framework in my mind that I'm thinking of, which is the idea that American politics, the symbol of American politics is the pendulum and that eventually things swing back. And I'm just wondering when, like, when we are

reaching the point where the pendulum starts the swing and what does that look like. If this political thing that we're worried about isn't necessarily liberalism or conservative, conservatism, or we've gone to left or right, but more, we've allowed so much root corruption and above the line levels of cronyism that we can just all see and we almost normalize and accept it now. There's going to be a pendulum effect to that too. And it's not like this is a permanent state of affairs. Things always feel that way. It feels like things escalate, escalate, escalate. But it always swings back some way in some sort of action. And I'm wondering that's going to look like.

I think a lot of people assume that it's going to be some revolutionary, violent, massive force. That's some of the writing that I've seen about it is like a populist uprising, like a lot of populism, pro-populist candidates are succeeding across the board. Trump was even one of them. And is it going to be something that happens within the system or not?

Like, it feels like there's going to be a reaction to this and what's that going to look like? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it, in my view, the most likely scenario of sort of the whatever your way out is a kind of really clean, moderate politician who manages to get elected president

and ushers in like a really prosperous era for a lot of people. Like it's like a, it's basically like a figure who climbs some sort of, you know, anti-corruption. I'm like, let's pull us back from the, Brank, really inspirational, sort of generational type figure. Ted Roosevelt and Muckraker kind of person. Yeah, I mean, so just somebody who, like, can win the middle 60% band and have high marks among both their own party and a big chunk of the other party.

And then, you know, is president for 48 years of economic growth and peace. And, like, I mean, literally, I think it's going to take somebody like that winning and do it in a really clean fashion that sort of resets the standard for what matters for the country or what people want or, you know, like we remember what it's like to just go back to our lives and not have to care so much about politics and the country feels like it's in good hands and that's just like relaxing and, you know, it's, you know, I mean, to me it would take something like that. Do I think that's likely anytime soon? It doesn't feel that way. It does not feel that way. And I mean, especially when she take a kind of global perspective on this and as, as you

you guys alluded to, the Gen Z protests in Nepal, which have played out, similar scenes have played out in a bunch of other places, Morocco, Madagascar, I think Peru as well, where you essentially have these social media uprisings that lead to real protests that lead to overthrowing governments in some instances and otherwise severely disrupting the kind of political systems and orders that are there. And there's a sense in which the United States has already. had some experience with this. Back in 2020 during COVID, there was that wave of kind of what we're then described as nationalist uprisings, but perhaps ought to be viewed in the same way that we view these more recent Gen Z riots. That feels like the much more likely progression of

things than a return to moderation and people being able to just kind of focus on their lives and care less about politics again, which I think is unfortunate because that is not a great way to do politics and by estimation. And we would do far better to find interesting moderate voices who could help create new coalitions who could build bridges

between the parties who have, it's become impossible for them to have conversations with one another. But if you look at the two major parties, I have no idea who the figures are who could actually serve as that bridge. I don't know. I see on the left, Bernie Sanders,

AOC, Mandani, that is the power center of the Democratic Party at the moment. And there are a number of other prominent figures who are kind of aping Trump in terms of his particular rhetoric and his particular style of politics, which also isn't really about building bridges so much as it is, like kind of turning over the tables in the cathedral there. Gosh, we are awash in like metaphors and idioms today. We've got cans of worms and pendulums and all sorts of other stuff. Lots of things in the room with us today. I'm sure I could come up with some more. I'm kind of with you though on this. I want to be on Isaac's side that it's going to be a compelling moderate voice and that voice

maybe will come but doesn't seem like it's on the horizon. And I think I kind of want to turn a criticism or a line that we get from the left right now about the Trump administration back the other direction, which is we like to think it couldn't happen here. but it very much could. And I think the left usually says that about fascism and autocracy and leveling that claim against Trump. But I think you could turn that claim to the right and say, we think that some sort of political destabilization,

some big event that's going to be like a leftist uprising of sorts. Like that's the fear on the right. We think that that couldn't happen here, but it could. And that's the way that this could happen, is that there's enough discontent that there's going to be a populist, movement. We saw hordes of people in the U.S. Capitol. That's not a thing that's like a... No, that happened. Right. That's not a fantasy. That's not a fever dream we all had when we all had COVID. Like, that's a thing that happened. I mean, I think so. So that's, there's, there could be very much

an echo of that within the next four or five years. We could see storms of people. We're already seeing hordes of people in a very, very different way at ice buildings and detention facilities. I mean, imagine courthouses, like the storming of the Bastille. That's a thing that happened at a different place. And we like to think, you know, maybe that wouldn't happen here, but it could. And I don't know what that building would look like. And I don't know if it would just be constrained to one place. But I do think that there's a world in which there's some destabilization event. And we're looking at the buildings and the monuments and the ideas that were our federal government. And I think that could be an idea.

to keep in mind if you're on the Republican side thinking about like you're pushing the ball forward a lot right now and the Democrats aren't doing a good job stopping you. That's probably the guardrail to think about of what will happen if you go too far. See them wings? Don't miss the new comedy Good Fortune, starring Seth Rogen, Aziz Ansari, and Keanu Reeves, critics rave. It's heaven sent. Don't you have a budget, guardian angel?

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Like hornetsness, sleeping dogs, skeletons in closets. Yeah, that's good. I was speaking of skeletons in closets, that's good. You teamed me up previously for a transition, but I passed on the opportunity, which was kind of the necessity of people calling out their own side, which I think the sort of biggest story in that vein this week is the young Republican Nazi group chat or whatever we're calling it now. We didn't talk about this.

We haven't done a newsletter about it or a podcast about it, but I think we have to give it some space here before we wrap up Because it feels to me like a pretty big story. For anybody who missed it, I guess it's necessary to do like a quick piece of context here. But basically, apparently there is a group chat with leaders of young Republican groups throughout the country. And it was on Telegram, which is one of these encrypted apps.

And somebody leaked the group chat to Politico. And in the group chat, there was quite a bit of kind of gross, edge lord type commentary you know hard hard to tell what's real what's serious what's a joke what's not i mean you know obviously a lot of people are claiming things from taking out of context but i'll i'll read from the politico article just the first couple sentences it says leaders of young republican groups throughout the country worried what would happen if their telegram chat ever got leaked but they kept typing anyway they referred to black people as monkeys and the watermelon people and mused about putting their political opponents in gas chambers.

They talked about raping their enemies and driving them to suicide and lauded Republicans who they believe support slavery. William Hendricks, the young Kansas Republicans vice chair, used words like niggas and niggul variations of a racial slur, which more than a dozen. Yeah, you've inspired me, Camille, don't be fearful. Variations of a racial slur more than a dozen times in the chat. Bobby Walker, the vice chair of the New York State Young Republicans at the time referred to rape as epic.

Peter Guanta, who at the time was the chair of the same organization wrote in a message sent in June that everyone that votes know is going to the gas chamber. This goes on and on and on. There's screenshots of the group chat. A few things just establish A, the messages are authentic. One of the people in the chat briefly tried to claim that maybe they were doctored in some way.

evidence of that's been brought forward. Most people are admitting the chat was real. Political has a bunch of different sources. Again, screenshots, downloads, whatever. This started a wave of blowback. I mean, obviously on the left, people were, I mean, the story was all over my feed from more liberal commentators. There's something like deeply unsettling about it

because it's sort of, it's these young, quote-unquote young Republicans who are, you know, the future leaders of the party. and I think for a lot of people reading it it was like oh my god this is like these are the guys coming up next that's insane you know that feels so crazy the whole attitude

that some conservatives have sort of had in response to this has been these are kids basically and there's no big like there's there's no big story here it's just a bunch of kind of

like 20, 30-year-old, 20-year-old kids, whatever, being edge lords. And this to me is, like, where things get really problematic. And I'm curious to hear what you guys think about it. Because I do think it's possible to have different opinions and views about this. But the general thrust of it is that, like, they're young and silly and immature and we can't get all worked up about it. J.D. Vance, in particular, has kind of been the forefront of taking this position. these guys are in like the early 30s and late 20s.

Like some of them are a couple of years younger than J.D. Vance, the vice president. Many of them are older than the Doge employees who got brought in to reshape the government. This administration is currently deporting 20-year-old kids for op-eds that they wrote in support of, you know, the Palestinian cause. they're deporting 20-something-year-old people for things that they wrote about Charlie Kirk on Twitter after he was assassinated. It's like a total... I mean, it's just like if you're going to have this standard

that a 25-year-old or a 28-year-old needs to be forgiven for their words, that's okay. You can have that standard, but like you have to apply it evenly. It just feels like this should not be a hard thing to condemn. And it goes back to, like, like the Overton window shifting, like 10 years ago, this is a, like, young Republican organizations across the country are getting cleared out. Like, that's what's happening. They are, there's like

firings, resignations, mass pressure, whatever. And now it's like the vice president of the United States is getting ahead of this, just saying like, you're making a story out of nothing. I can't believe you're asking me about a bunch of edgy texts from a bunch of kids. And it's like, well, they're not kids. They're like important leaders in the Republican Party and they're in their mid late 20s and early 30s. Like it feels insane to sort of frame it that way. So I mean, that was my reaction. I'm curious like, you know, to play a little bit of devil's advocate or maybe, you know, frame it differently. Like leaked text messages. This is a private conversation that's being made public. There's all sorts of contexts that can be happening.

outside the text that we don't know about. I certainly have made some very inappropriate edgy jokes in text messages with friends that I'm sure if they leaked in a vacuum would make me look really bad. But like,

I haven't really joked about rape or Hitler or like talked about sending people to the gas chambers or use the N-word or, you know, whatever. It's like, I'm not doing that. So I don't know. Like I'm, I want to give a little bit of grace,

but it's really frustrating when the people who I think should be condemning this are like playing the whole their kids, don't. It's not their fault. I mean, I think maybe if you substitute kids

for immature people, it works decently to me. I think there's a classic age-old set up in, you know, mediocre comedy, but it still gets a laugh when you're part of the end group of, it's funny when you say the thing

you're not allowed to. It's kind of just, like a setup for a joke. You say something that's so over the line that in itself is the punchline. Not super clever. There's not a whole lot to it. But it also doesn't imply you actually believe the thing you're saying. You're just saying it because the shock value makes it funny. We don't have to pretend, I think, that the people who are posting these texts actually think the things they were saying. I don't think that's true. I think it's in terrible taste and it's not really, like, again, like it's a joke, but it's not a good joke. But it's still a joke.

and it's something that we would excuse in people who are immature, like teenagers, especially those who are really young, have been properly socialized yet? So the criticism isn't like, this is shocking and discussing that you'd say this. This is pretty immature for people who want to build themselves as future leaders. So if there's a scandal to it, which I think there is one, it's just that you're supposed to be the people

that are going to be the next wave of leaders for one of the major parties in the most advanced economy in the world that has like the biggest military in the history of the world etc etc and this is where your heads are at like you're at you're going to have to do better than that

and I'm not like outraged I'm not put up in arms about it it's just that this is pretty childish and young Republicans doesn't mean children it means the future leaders so if you're going to be future leaders step up and own it and get better This is just like definitely below what a major party should be doing.

Yeah. I mean, I've opined on this particular story quite a bit in the past week. I've talked about it on CNN on Abby Phillips show. I just talked about it on Megan Kelly's show as well. And in both of those appearances, I was pretty relentlessly critical of J.D. Vance. But I also made much the same, offered much the same qualification that you did, Ari, that my expectation is that most of these people in this private group are were joke they were they were joking around um i think there's i've seen a bunch of different reports about who is actually in about who is actually

in these groups um and um you know their ages and in some cases it seems like there might have been some women in there as well um i'm not sure how much all of that matters um and even if they are joking you're you're joking about certain kinds of things in particular kinds of ways may in fact have consequences for you personally and professionally if those jokes become public and in this particular case they have and it seems totally appropriate for there to be consequences.

I think the dynamic that however that makes me particularly annoyed by and frustrated with J.D. Vance's response to this and the response of many conservatives, quite frankly, is the kind of casual dismissal the suggestion that, hey, we shouldn't be ruining kids' lives over posting some jokes, making some mistakes. I'm going to tell my kids not to post anything online

because it could come back to haunt you. That might be okay if we weren't seeing actual manifestations of a kind of resurgence of anti-Semitic and white nationalist sentiment in our polity, particularly on the right but not exclusively. And I wouldn't even say particularly on the right, honestly. Like I think a lot of the kind of identity obsession on the left, some of the kind of pro-Palestinian stuff, oftentimes, not always, but I wouldn't even say most times necessarily, but oftentimes

can kind of fuse with and be indistinguishable from something, some kind of anti-Semitic sentimentality. One has to be aware of that being out there in the ether. And if you are aware of it, when the opportunity comes to distinguish yourself as a respectable mainstream politician is a standard bear for your party from people who are openly flirting with these things, are openly endorsing them, and even people who are prominent or up-and-coming,

aspiring to be prominent figures in your party, who are flirting with this stuff casually in a sustained way, you take that opportunity to distinguish yourself from those people. You take that opportunity to call that sort of outrageous behavior out. And I would go further and say, you don't just say, well, that's racist. We don't use the N word. I think you have to be very specific

about establishing what your affirmative values are that we assess people based on their individual merit and dignity. We have absolutely no patience for this kind of otherizing, et cetera. That's what you do in response. And I have not seen that happen with J.D. Vance. And I can, if I were to make a case to defend him, I'd say it seems like J.D. Vance is responding to this. scandal, the way I might have expected someone to respond to any number of the scandals that we've seen in years prior, where some kid is getting ready to, you know, take their first at bat in college. And suddenly, there's a video of them singing along to a little Wayne song. And they use all the words. And oh, my God, they've lost their scholarship and they are finished. And there were a number of stories precisely like that, where we essentially contrived the scandal where there was none.

and destroyed people's lives for the benefit of no one. And actually, I made a mistake there. I said for the benefit of no one. I would restate that and say, we destroyed people's lives. And in some respects, set the stage for some of the kind of resurgent, malignant sentiments that have become so prominent. There is a sense in which, as you mentioned earlier, Isaac, and I actually hate it, there were people like us who were saying at the time when Tish James was prosecuting her case,

this has a really ugly kind of political taint to it. It should not be the way that we engage in our politics. And in 2020, when the kind of Black Lives Matter moment was happening, I can appreciate all of the noble intentions that were there. But I remember saying on numerous occasions and countless contexts, this could inspire people to become more identitarian. And I think, I mean, I wish this. It weren't true, but I think it is quite obviously true that those things have in fact happened.

And we really do need to contend with the world that we're living in. I don't know if Nick Fuentes is someone who we should view in the same way as Richard Spencer in 2016. Richard Spencer, I think, was a kind of a threat that was inflated well beyond the proportion of his actual influence and significance. Nick Fuentes, on the other hand, I think has a tangible real following, is actually making inroads in places that I find a bit surprising. And I'm not talking about the Marlago dinner. I'm talking about more recently in terms of his media appearances, in terms of the success he's having on social media. And I don't think we've learned any of the lessons. They seem to imagine over at YouTube that you can, or in Spotify, you can ban Nick Fuentes and suddenly

his bad ideas are gone. Yeah, that's not going to work. He's got a foothold in the culture and a handhold too and perhaps, you know, a length of rope to catch himself if he falls. This is a real, tangible, growing problem. And I think the fact that there is some connection between that phenomena and this scandal with the text messages is something that the administration ought to be aware of, is something that certainly the vice president of the United States ought to be aware of and that Republicans should be aware of and should speak to directly. Question, just to clarify a little bit of what you're saying. So with the issue that you're talking about and you're drawing a line here between the way that we talked about scandals during, like, sort of the pre-George Floyd post-me-2 era of canceling people for saying the wrong thing online, but this instance of people having these text messages link, are you saying that, like, I want to try to extend similar grace? are you saying this is a little different because of the position that they're in?

I think the current context, because we actually have this tangible evidence of kind of a resurgent, again, malignant set of malignant ideas, makes me think that the response from the administration should be more robust. So that's one aspect of it. I think the related aspect, however, is these, this conversation that are happening in the signal chat, I think the fact that these people have some proximity of power means that there, and there always should have been, consequences for the things that you say in public. I think joking about gas chambers, however,

is a lot different in a sustained way. And joking about loving Hitler, again, in a sustained way, is very different than singing along to a little Wayne song. And we were literally canceling people for that in various other contexts. And now we're having a conversation about, again, these people who in some instances have power

and more broadly, I think, have some sort of proximity of power and aspirations to be involved in politics who are doing, at minimum, I could say, unseemly things. And the maximum I might say in some of those cases actually do endorse some of the ugly ideas that they're joking around about. It can be hard to actually distinguish between the two.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to, but I am saying that it's fine for there to be consequences here, not just fine, totally appropriate for there to be some consequences here. And I would again, if J.D. Vance were employing the nuance that he seems to want to at least sort of pantomime here, then that would be fine if he was doing it alongside a robust condemnation of the values that are being advocated for in those groups and not simply presenting it as something that is, you know, we shouldn't be destroying kids' lives. I don't even want to talk about that. That isn't important. I do think him underscoring the hypocrisy of Democrats who have been unable to condemn, for example, in AG, who's running for office having similarly joked about really gross things in a text message. And I think he probably should drop out of the race because given the moment that we're in,

having high standards about this sort of stuff isn't crazy to me. But that's not enough. Hypocrisy is in a justification for awful actions on the part of your party. I also don't think the two things are actually equivalent. This is a lot of people. And you guys have done this several times before. The Big Balls scandal with the Doge Kid was the first time that they tried to draw a line

in a somewhat awkward place, essentially defending bad behavior. And even there, I was like, I don't know. Like, yeah, does he believe these things? Maybe not. Maybe he was just joking. But sometimes you lose your job when you've said things that are sufficiently bad,

a sufficient number of times. and I at least want to see some scrutiny because the Big Balls thing gives way to this the ICE official who tosses a woman down on video gets fired and then they're like no no don't fire him. It's fine. It's fine

for him to toss this woman down who's having her life destroyed as her husband is being deported and her family is being torn apart and she has to wonder about what her future looks like. Yeah, we should totally throw those people to the ground. It's just there's something about it that I think I find

particularly disturbing and frustrating. Yeah, I mean, I think like the most direct way to sort of compare it is you can be a, you know, a tough student who writes an op-ed as a 20-year-old about supporting the Palestinian cause. In pretty milk-a-to's terms, without even, you know, no like Hamas support or anything. just basically like calling out what you view as a genocide and the pain and suffering of the Palestinians and you get snatched up on the street literally by mass agents for that

and then put in jail and then deported and you're 20-some years old, 20 years old, 21, however old she was. And then you can be a young Republican chapter leader who's in their mid to late 20s, who's joking about, you know, hating Jews and Hitler or saying racist stuff about black people and there isn't even a slap on the wrist.

I mean, like, not even a, like, to Camille's point, not even a public criticism. There's just an active defense or excuse building. And I think that distinction, like that is just way to, there's too big of an ocean between those two things. Like, there's no standard there. There's no principled consistency. There's nothing.

I'm actually of the view. I mean, I, you know, one of the most popular pieces I ever wrote for Tangle was confessing my sins, which was a story about just like all the horrible stuff I used to say when I was 16 to 20 years old. And looking back on old Facebook posts I have and, you know, like using gay, slurs and rapping the lyrics and saying the N word and whatever and like

and just like having gone through that experience and doing those things as a young man and then having the evolution of like you know the first time like I remember really vividly the first time I was probably like 16 or 17 and I was hanging out

my oldest brother's five years older than me and I was with one of his friends who's like 22 or 23 and we were like talking about and I always said something like you know like that kid's like a fag dude whatever and he was just like what did you just say dude it's a spicy podcast today

yeah yeah and he was like and he just said and he just said to me like he just said like dude you sound like a fucking idiot like why are you talking like that you know like it's so gross dude like you sound like you're in seventh grade like you're still using that word

and I was like 16 17 like feeling like I was like you know growing up It's like the age where, like, and I had like this older, cool friend, like, brother's friend who was just like, dude, you're like a loser. Like, you talk like that. And I was like, oh, like that's like I, that is gross. Like, why do I talk, you know? And it like, and I will remember that moment for the rest of my life. And, you know, like, it shifted the way.

And he didn't like publicly shame me. He didn't like try and ruin my. He was just like, dude, what? Like, why you, you know. And it, and then, like, by the time I was 20, or 21, I'm hearing like younger kids from where I grew up talking like that. And I became the dude who was like, dude, what? Like, or why, you know, like, and it shifted my whole. And I had like the grace and the time to sort of evolve and change and whatever. And so all this to say, like,

I've always been somebody who's like a really strong proponent of like the evolution and a little bit of grace and like, you know, the things that you think or say when you're 16 or 21 or even 25 We're not going to be the things you think or say when you're 30 or 35 or 40, and that goes on forever. And we can give people space to change and we can hold them accountable while doing that in like reasonable ways. And so when, you know, Camille, like when you're talking about, I mean, there were so many examples in that sort of like 2019 to 2022 era where, yeah, there's like

a college recruit who then like a TikTok video of them like rapping while they're driving their mom's Cadillac or some stupid thing. and they say the N-word while they're rapping along like a little Wayne song, all of a sudden has their entire life destroyed, their scholarship removed. Like, I was out there being like, this is not good.

Like, this is not how we should do this. You know, like, there are so many good kids who just need to be taught in a way that doesn't destroy them and alienate them and, like, push them out of society and make them hate the people who are kind of policing their language. And we have ways to do that. And so I'm generally positioned

towards grace. In this instance, like these are people with power who are people that are supposed to be, you know, future leaders of the political world. And they're people who I think like the thing that sort of really feels weird about it is

it's happening kind of publicly in the group chat. It's like, there's sort of this like, they're egging each other on and it's, they're making it cool and acceptable. And I think it, to your point, Camille, I'm a line. Like, I think it,

it is a place where there should be consequences and it's appropriate for there to be consequences for the things that they said. The degree of those consequences doesn't have to be like this person who said this thing when they were 25 in 10 years is like prohibited from running for office. Like that's not what I'm saying. But like maybe they shouldn't be the chapter leader of the Arkansas Republican Party for young Republicans. Like I think that's a perfectly good consequence. And like they can they can spend some time and time out and have. have six months of like this, like reflecting on your language and what you did and why this is wrong. And the standards should be set from the top down. And it's just like so unbelievably

disappointing to see somebody like J.D. Vance just like wave this away as a non-story and like, you know, whatever, especially given that he's the same person who's advocating for people to have their lives destroyed or their rights taken away from them or their immigrant status removed because they posted something on Twitter or they wrote an op-ed when they were 20 years old that was vaguely inappropriate in the J.D. Vance worldview. That part really sucks. So, yeah, it's like I'm, you know, I want to be the guy advocating for the grace and the free speech and the learning and the lessons. And also, like, it's okay to hold people accountable in a situation like this in my view. Yeah. No, I'm, every, every word. I've now, all right. Even the naughty

ones. Yeah, I was going to say, I've now, uh, although I won't do that. You've stepped on a different landmines for sure. I will not do the thing where I confess all my sins publicly. We're going to ask for a little bit. And I will say, there's a friend who has said on a number of occasions, and I think it's actually true, that if I, if you don't have a text message from me that you could theoretically use to blackmail me and get me in trouble and perhaps cancel me, then we're probably not good friends, to be totally honest. So, you know, not only have I said bad things in the past as a child, I get, you know, I work blue sometimes, and sometimes being maybe yesterday. Yeah. But there's a difference between these two things. And actually being

curious about the difference, I think is the important, is the important quality that we need to maintain in a moment like this. I have too many friends who had their lives completely upended and ruined. And some of those friends I made after they had their lives upended and ruined during Me Too, during the kind of social justice moment that we experienced over the past decade or so. And a lot of those people had their lives ruined on the basis of just vague allegations. And that was unacceptable. What's also unacceptable is to develop an attitude where the evidence doesn't matter and the circumstance and the context doesn't matter at all in the other direction. We can excuse anything. Everything is permissible because of the bad thing that was done

to us before or because you guys are ignoring some other bad thing that's taking place in the world. Neither of those worlds are worlds I want to live in. All right. We're going to have to to wrap up here because we're doing our unusual morning recording time and we've got an awesome newsletter coming out. If you're listening to this, it should be out already. We're publishing a dueling interviews today with Anne Applebaum and Richard Sokwa on the war in Ukraine. Two people have very different perspectives about how the war started, why it started, what's happening now, what's going to happen in the future. And we've done something kind of cool with the format where we've put their responses sort of side by side so you can see them.

I think it's going to be a really interesting piece in the newsletter. And we're also going to release the interviews on the podcast. So they should be in our feed sometime today if you're interested in that. I think that means it's time for some grievances. So, John, maybe you can hit the music, my friend. The airing of grievances. Between you and me, I think your country is placing a lot of importance on shoe removal.

I hate Citibank. They will never be a sponsor of the show. I will probably never say anything publicly nice about them ever. I have a couple credit cards. I got a Citibank double cash back credit card as our business credit card for the Tangle, some members of the Tangle staff, so four or five of us have these credit cards.

And it has been an experience from hell. I can't use it. It is like, it is basically declined every second time you use it. Their fraud alert system seems entirely broken. The way that they do their fraud alert system is that if the card gets blocked, you can't just text them and say, yes, I did. I was the person who did this charge, retry the card. You have to call in, get somebody on the customer service line,

and then they read you the last month of charges on the card, and you have to respond in the affirmative yes that each of those charges was you and then they reactivate the card for you. It's been a total nightmare and then it all came to this unbelievable crescendo a few weeks ago where the card got declined because Magdalena tried to pay for a Facebook ad with it.

And when I called Citibank, the customer service person told me that they would be sending me in the mail, in snail mail, a pin number that I would have to get, receive in snail mail, and then call back when the pin number arrived and read the pin number over the phone in order to turn the card back on.

And that, my friends, was the straw that broke the camels back. I elevate, I did something I never do. I caroned out. I was like, okay, I need to talk to your supervisor. Like, you're, like, we have, like, all of our newspaper subscriptions, our Slack subscription. Like, I'm getting emails from Slack. We tried to charge your card to re-up your Slack subscription, and it's failed.

Like, they froze the entire card. So all the business expenses that are on the credit card are being declined that are on, like, recurring charges. I'm just getting emails about this, getting text messages about, like, the card getting declined. And this woman's just telling me, like, yeah, it's going to take five to ten business days for the envelope to get there. And then you'll have to call us back and just read the PIN number over the phone.

So I promise I would never, ever use Citibank. again. I'm playing to pay off and cancel the card shortly. We're going to move to another service that a reader recommended, which I'm really excited about. So I'm out on Citibank. That's my big grievance. The sort of good news story that I just want to inject at the end is I also have a Chase Sapphire credit card. Incredible credit card. Like it's heavy. It's like thick. They make it to feel too far. Don't go too far, Isaac. They got to pay. They got to pay for this kind of endorse. You have to pay for it. Yeah, Chase, you can sponsor the show.

I will do a Chase Sapphire card, read down, host red ad for the show. It's just if you get access to the lounge, you get all these perfect benefits, there's travel stuff. It's awesome. And recently, I got a text from Chase that was like, hey, your card just got used for some vacation thing that I did not buy is we think this is a fraudulent chart. I almost never get fraud alerts from Chase. I text back, yes, that is a, like, that's a fraudulent charge. Or I said, no, that wasn't me. And they text me back and they say, okay, thank you.

Your card has been canceled. A new one is in the mail. It will arrive tomorrow. All via text, right? One text, all of you tomorrow. And we'll update your, like, your Apple Pay and whatever. And so literally, in the span of an hour, I opened my phone and my Apple wallet has a new Chase Credit

card that they have somehow updated via like this token technology they have, all the auto payments on my computer, all the subscriptions I have been switched over to the new Chase credit card. And then, yes, the next day I wake up and I have a first class FedEx mail at my front door and open it up and it's my new Chase Sapphire credit card. And that, my friends, is how you fucking do business. I was like, this is awesome. I will be a Chase customer for the rest of my life, incredible credit card.

great business, great company, and that's the good news ending to my grievance about Citibank, who I will never be working for again or working with again. Wow. Wow. That's it. Okay. Well, the story has a happy ending. I will, Isaac, have to flag you, however,

for using a slur. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Because you used it as a slur. My third slur of the day that I... We're going to have to put an explicit tag on this episode, I think. That's a little bit...

Drop in a casual F-bomb, too, which we've also got. a lot of complaints about. Yeah, I'm sorry about her. I will say, I have a very bad, I have a really foul mouth, I've always had really, used really bad language.

It's the thing I'm working on. I've restrained myself so much on this podcast. It's true. But sometimes I want to say, like I've known Isaac forever, and I think a lot of people have used the nickname for him, The mouth.

And that's a good, good indication of the mouth is unchained. Oh, my God. This is as clean as you get me. So much fun. Yeah, I try so hard to not curse on the show because I know it bothers people and we have, like, religious, I have a very religious uncle who writes into me sometimes and says, you just clean it up a little bit. And I'm just like, I'm trying really hard. But it's, language is expansive and a beautiful thing. And I think foul language should be part of it. And I do my best to keep it PG-13 most of the time. But all right, who's next? Yeah. Gosh, this makes me want to watch Deadwood again. My wife used to hate it because of the profanity. But it's like Shakespearean. You seem perfect.

Amazing. In fact, I'm going to change mine now. I was going to say something else before, but you've inspired me, Isaac. I am flying cross-country almost every week. Over the course of the next year, it might be 40 out of 52 weeks. I will be on a plane. And in many of those instances, it might be cross-country. And I'm doing most of my flying on a particular airline, JetBlue.

And I've obviously got very high status on the airline. Not the highest, but I will in a matter of weeks. And I'm a little frustrated because the program is inadequately generous. It's way too hard to get men upgrades. I shouldn't have to pay the full price for the men upgrade, given the volume of dollars I'm spending with you. And apparently to get a corporate account with men, JetBlue's Mosaic program, one needs to have like a 20, 100 person staff and be booking hundreds of thousands of dollars in business.

if one person is spending $30,000 to $40,000 a year with you, I have to imagine there's a way to make their experience on your flights a little more generous, just a little bit. Like maybe let me get the upgrade at no-calls for like half the time, at least a quarter of the time. Now it's like almost never. And I find that absolutely unacceptable. I do appreciate the service.

I think the mint cabin pretty good. staffing is good, but the program is just poorly designed. And at a minimum, you should at least work something out with me because I suppose I'm an influencer or something. Maybe I can help sell some stuff for you. So just reach out JetBlue. Like, this is an opportunity for us to turn this negative into a positive. I rarely hear JetBlue slander.

That's most people only say good things about Jeff Blue. This is qualified, qualified criticism. I think there's an opportunity for them to do better. Call it actionable feedback. It reminds me of that Louis C.K. bit about like how just like unbelievably cynical human beings are that like we can just be doing something like flying on a plane 500 miles per hour in the air through the sky, like in space, just this incredible feat of technology. We're like, you're like, the Wi-Fi's not working. Yeah, it's pretty good. Everything's incredible and nobody's happy. Yeah, I think that launched him. This is like the second of three episodes that Louis C.K.

has sort of come up organically. It's interesting. Well, the other one was because I saw that picture of him that I was like, oh, my God, that's what Louis C.K. looks like now. I mean, he looked terrible. He aged, like, incredibly poorly in five years, yeah. Well, our blessings up to Louis C.K. I think my grievance is going to be.

Yeah, we are getting that explicit tag, right? Anyway, the grievance that I have is rather quotidian. I'll make it pretty short and simple, which is, from my perspective, I had a pretty funny approach to this podcast this morning, which was I was getting ready. Isaac sends the link to the recording studio, click that link, come on over, get ready to start recording. And I go to respond something in the Slack,

and every letter that I hit sends the message. So I'm trying to say, like, on my way and just like, oh, send, and I'm like, wait, and I go to write hold and just H-O-L-D, and I'm like, what's going on? I did not understand what was happening. I'm filling you in now. So then I, like, the computer, like I try to shift programs

and I do, I'm on a Macs, a command tab. And it tabs over a couple times, goes to my browser. I find after this has happened that my enter and tab keys have both been stuck, which is a dangerous combination of keys to get stuck because those are both very,

very actionable keys. So goes to Chrome, cycles through my bookmark tabs, opens up a dock that I have saved, starts adding new lines to it. It has a bunch of spaces in the middle of this document. And then I'm like, oh, shoot,

and I try to shift over to another program. Like, I bring open the system preferences to shut down. And then the tab goes too far, shifts back to Chrome, shifts to a dock. We're actively working on this morning that we're getting ready to publish. It adds a bunch of new lines in the middle of it. We always trying to get these interviews transcribes so we can send them out and then whole page of new line characters. Like, oh, crap.

So I have to then shift back. Then, like, force quit the application, force quit the entire, like the entire computer. and then have to send you guys this text this morning that's like, sorry. I'm having a little bit of a computer, I guess, like, exorcism that I have to perform right now where I think my keyboard was a little bit possessed by something. So I had to shut it off, clean the keys. And this is the last grievance that I have, is that there's this feature with this generation of MacBook errors that I think it's any key,

but if it's not any key, it's the tab key that if you hit tab, the computer will restart. So I want the computer to be off so I can clean it, but the tab key stuck, so it turns itself back on as I'm trying to clean the keyboard,

which ended up not being a huge issue because, like, I'm not signed in yet. So it's just entering a string of nonsense characters in the password, clean the keyboard, and up and ready to go. wasn't necessarily a big deal but it was just a really

fun, weird thing to be a passenger for as my computer decided to take me on this ride this morning. Could I throw something out there which is that I think having to turn your computer off to clean it is like a wives tale.

I decided at some point in my life that that was just like a wives tale. Like it doesn't matter. There's no difference. I just spray my computer and clean it while it's on. Well, if you're trying to clean your keyboard, it's very

risky if you have applications up because you're just saying, like, I'm going to roll the dice and we're going to see what's going to happen as I smash the entire keyboard. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But I'm more like, I X everything out, close everything down, my computers just on, and I just

rip it. Oh, sure. Because I think that I always interpreted having to turn your computer off is like the fact that there were like electrical things firing on the computer might cause some sort of like, and then one day I was like, that's so dumb. Like, why do I think that?

It's like turning your car off when you're filling the tank. It's actually a similar thing. Oh, okay. Also doesn't matter anymore. It used to matter a lot, but it doesn't matter. One of the kids that I coached was a very, very interesting person. He was a hobbyist race car driver as well as like an aeronautical engineer in college. And I loved being in his car and we carpooled a tournaments.

And he would always pull up to ExxonMobil because he said they have superior you're petroleum. I'm not sure how much I'm on port with that. But it was exciting. So we're taking Exxon sponsorship, Chase sponsorship, JetBlue sponsorship. We're selling up big time.

And you would just pull in, have the car turned on, start filling the pump and say, like, you can just do this, you know? People turn it off and then waste seconds. Like, waste seconds. Okay, that's very much the mentality

of a hobbyist race car driving. That's a lot of an aggregate, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, gentlemen. It's like cell phones on planes. All right.

Yeah. Well. Well. Well. Well, yeah, I think cell phones... Well, we can talk about that next show. We'll open with that. I think if everybody's using their cell phones on a plane, that's actually dangerous.

Yeah, I read one. Yeah. It's about single-chain. We'll get to. We'll open the show next to. Stay tuned for a good conversation. All right. We'll see you guys in Los Angeles, Irvine, California next week.

Don't forget. We'll do this in person, and it'll be great. All right. See you guys. Bye. Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lull. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kback

and Associate Editors Hunter Asperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Canuth, and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign them for a membership, please visit our website at reTangle.com. The Hulu original series, Murdoch, Death and the Family, dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before, starring Academy Award winner, Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark.

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