Tangle - The Arrest of Pavel Durov

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

On Saturday, French authorities arrestedTelegram founder and CEO Pavel Durov as part of an investigation into illicit activity on the messaging app, including money laundering, drug trafficking, and child abuse. The arrest comes as governments across the globe grapple with how to best regulate social media and messaging platforms. Durov has not been formally charged but can be held for questioning until Wednesday under French law. You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.You can watch the entire Tangle Live event at City Winery NYC on our YouTube Channel!Check out Episode 5 of our podcast series, The Undecideds. Please give us a 5-star rating and leave a comment!Today’s clickables: Quick hits (1:30), Today’s story (2:49), Left’s take (6:57), Right’s take (09:55), International Writer's Take (12:20), Isaac’s take (15:06), Questions Answered (20:22), Under the Radar (23:29), Numbers (24:11), Have a nice day (25:24)rrYou can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Help share Tangle.I'm a firm believer that our politics would be a little bit better if everyone were reading balanced news that allows room for debate, disagreement, and multiple perspectives. If you can take 15 seconds to share Tangle with a few friends I'd really appreciate it. Email Tangle to a friend here, share Tangle on X/Twitter here, or share Tangle on Facebook here.Take the survey:What do you think of Pavel Durov’s arrest? Let us know!Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The faster money and data move, the further your business can go to a seamless digital future for Canadians. Let's go faster forward together. In life, interact. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported

across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul,

this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about Pavel Durov and his arrest, which just happened in France, a pretty big story. Before we jump into that story, though, I want to give you a quick heads up on two pieces of content that you should be aware of. First of all, on Friday, we unlocked and sent a members-only post to all our readers where I shared 28 reflections

from attending the DNC. You can find a link to that post in our episode description, and you can find it up on our website. Also on Sunday, we publish a reader essay from a former member of the Minnesota National Guard who served around the same time as Tim Walz and shared his perspective on the controversy around Tim Walz's service. That post also is up on our website, and you can read it with a link in today's episode description. With that out of the way, I'm going to send it over to John to record today's main pod, and I'll be back with my take. Thanks, Isaac, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today.

First up, Vice President Kamala Harris's campaign wants the microphones to be live for the duration of the September 10th debate, while former President Donald Trump's campaign says it isn't different but wants to keep the previously agreed-upon rules. Separately, former Representative Tulsi Gabbard, who served in Congress as a Democrat but switched her affiliation to independent in 2022 endorsed donald trump for president number two mark zuckerberg the ceo of meta sent a letter to house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan stating that senior biden administration officials pressured the company to censor content related to covid19 zuckerberg also said he would not fund non-profits to assist in state election efforts as he did in 2020. Number three, special counsel Jack Smith asked a federal appeals court to reverse a lower court's decision to dismiss

the criminal case against former President Donald Trump for his alleged mishandling of classified documents. Number four, a federal judge in Texas paused a Biden administration policy that would give spouses of U.S. citizens legal status without having to leave the country first. And number five, a privacy watchdog in the Netherlands fined Uber roughly $324 million for breaching the European Union's rules against transferring the personal data of drivers from the EU to the US. Now to reports the founder of the widely used Telegram messaging app has been arrested outside Paris for allegedly failing to moderate criminal activity on the platform, which has also been used by pro-democracy activists worldwide.

on the platform, which has also been used by pro-democracy activists worldwide. Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram and thought to be worth over $15 billion, was apparently arrested at Le Berger Airport just outside Paris shortly after touching down in his private jet. Durov is reportedly accused of failing to take action to stop the criminal use of his platform. On Saturday, French authorities arrested Telegram founder and CEO Pavel Durov as part of an investigation into illicit activity on the messaging app, including money laundering, drug trafficking, and child abuse. The arrest comes as governments across the globe grapple with how to best regulate social media and messaging platforms. Durov has not been formally

charged, but can be held for questioning until Wednesday under French law. The 39-year-old Russian-born Durov came to prominence when he founded VK, often called the Russian Facebook. In 2014, he sold his stake in VK and fled Russia, refusing to comply with government demands to shut down and hand over data about opposition communities on the site to Russian authorities. He founded Telegram in 2013, growing it to become one of the largest and most used messaging platforms in the world. It has roughly 9 million active users, and it is especially popular in Russia and Ukraine.

The app is best known for its encryption features and stringent privacy policies for users, which has made it particularly valuable to journalists and government dissidents. However, Telegram has come under sharp scrutiny for lax moderation policies that have allowed criminal activities like sex trafficking, fraud, and organized crime to proliferate on the platform. After the January 6th riots at the Capitol, Durov received requests from members of Congress to access certain data on the app, which he refused.

Durov was arrested when he landed outside of Paris while traveling from Azerbaijan on his private jet. French officials have been looking into Telegram's moderation policies and potential legal infractions, specifically the trafficking of child pornography and drugs. In February, the European Union rolled out new regulations on online content moderation, which included rules about flagging illegal goods and services. Under this law, the Digital Services Act, the EU has opened

an investigation into the social media platform X over the dissemination of illegal content in the context of Hamas's terrorist attacks against Israel. Durov previously claimed that the United States and Russia both tried to introduce backdoors into the apps in order to access data on its users. Though he says he rebuffed those attempts, some Russian dissidents suspect the app has ties to Moscow and claim Russian authorities have used the app to locate, detain, and threaten activists. Russia has also dropped attempts to ban the app. After his arrest, the Russian embassy in France demanded consular access to Durov while urging France to ensure his rights were being protected. France's President Emmanuel Macron confirmed the arrest, insisting it was made as part of an ongoing investigation.

Telegram did not offer details about the arrest, but said it abides by European Union laws and its moderation was within industry standards. On Monday, French authorities released a statement outlining 12 potential offenses that led to Durov's arrest, including allegations that Telegram has been designed to enable illegal activity. Telegram CEO Pavel Durov has nothing to hide and travels frequently in Europe, Telegram said in the statement. It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform. Today, we're going to share views on Duerev's arrest from the left and the right,

as well as some perspectives from abroad, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick break. We'll be right back after this quick break. to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider Thank you. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left thinks it's plausible that Durov violated European Union laws,

but says authorities need to release more details about the decision to arrest him. Some say the move could prompt other tech companies to take content moderation more seriously. In TechDirk, Mike Masnick said Durov's arrest leaves more questions than answers. Is the arrest of Pavel Durov, founder of Telegram, a justified move to combat illegal activities, or is it just a case of dangerous overreach that threatens privacy and free speech online? We had hoped that when French law enforcement released details of the charges, we'd have a better picture of what happened. Instead, we're actually just left with more questions and concerns, Mastin wrote. The Tribunal Judiciar de Paris released a press release

with some more details about the investigation in both French and English. All it does is leave most of the questions open, which might suggest they don't have very good answers. A lot of this does seem potentially very problematic. So far, there's been no revelation of anything that makes me say, oh, well, that seems obviously illegal. A lot of things listed in the charge sheet are things that a lot of websites and communications

providers could be said to have done themselves, though perhaps to a different degree, Mastick said. While it's useful to see the details of this investigation, it makes me lean ever so slightly in the direction of thinking that these potential charges go too far. We're still really missing many details. Nothing released today has calmed the concerns that this is an overreach, but nothing has made it clear that it definitely is overreach either.

In The Guardian, Chris Stokel WalkerWalker argued arresting Durov could be a smart move. Turning the other cheek to government requests made Durov's platform popular for those who wanted to avoid the scrutiny of other apps and digital services that regularly accede to such requests. The fact that Telegram provides encrypted messages helps. It's not coincidental that the rides in the UK earlier this summer were organized through Telegram's groups, Stokel-Walker wrote. But the Russians' arrest may signal that through telegrams groups, Stokely Walker wrote. But the Russians' arrest may signal that Europe's historic inaction, at least relative to its fighting talk,

may be about to change. Europe has had a long-running antagonistic relationship with big tech, which insists its attempts to enforce strong regulation designed to limit the harms of social media is a break on innovation. DeRose's arrest is a sign that Europe is perhaps starting to talk the talk. A European legislative package, including the Digital Markets Act and Digital Services

Act, has given the EU the strength to attempt to rein in big tech excesses. Action and fines have already been threatened. And now that executives know what was previously unthinkable, that they might have to take personal responsibility for the actions of the companies they own. It's in the cards, Stokely Walker said. With the power those in charge of global platforms wield, it's no bad thing for them to have a nagging fear in the back of their minds.

All right, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is critical of the arrest, suggesting France does not have the authority to charge Derov. Others call the move an attack on free speech. For the Cato Institute, Will Duffield criticized Derov's unprecedented arrest. Telegram's neutrality might have become an annoyance, but this shift alone doesn't explain Durov's perplexing arrest. Telegram has long been pugnacious in its relations with courts and regulators than most publicly traded platforms. But it is far from unique in offering encrypted messaging, Duffield said. It's tough to see how France has jurisdiction over Telegram. Telegram isn't a French company. France might have personal jurisdiction over Durov as a French citizen, but operating a social media platform offering encryption isn't a criminal act in

France. To the extent that Durov's arrest is related to Telegram's platform policies rather than Durov's private activity, France has just taken a hostage. France owes Durov, Telegram users, and the internet as a whole a rapid explanation. Its actions are already damaging its reputation as both a friend of liberty and a safe place to do business. More importantly, Durov's opaque arrest threatens Telegram's unique neutrality and potentially the safety of its users on both sides of the conflict. The appearance of capture can be just as damning as the real thing. If France is truly an ally committed to a free internet, it should free Pavel Durov.

In Reason, Nick Gillespie asked, is Pavel Durov the next Julian Assange? Durov's arrest is an outrage and a reminder that, at least on the surface, Europe and the United States have fundamentally different approaches to unregulated speech that go back centuries, Gillespie wrote. Durov's arrest should also serve as a reminder even to Americans who have yet to jettison governance models that seek to command and control speech. Governments and, in different and usually less effective and invasive ways, corporations and religions are still fighting a battle to control speech, freedom, and innovation despite no possible ultimate victory. The distance from Julian Assange, who spent well over a decade in various forms of involuntary confinement

after publishing government documents, to Durov is shorter than it might appear, and the trend always goes in one direction. The people who want to keep speech and information under lock and key go after the people who want to force transparency and hold space for more discussion. God help you if you create a way to share that information and discuss it without asking permission. All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to what international writers are saying. Some writers abroad say the arrests

highlight the European Union's efforts to rein in tech companies. Others say it's not clear whether Durov is a free speech icon or a pawn of Russia. The Le Monde editorial board said the Telegram affair poses a test for the European Union. Telegram is a double-edged messaging system. It is invaluable for government opponents who can communicate free from the surveillance of dictatorial regimes. However, it also provides an encrypted platform for pedophiles, criminals, and cybercriminals and terrorists of all kind who can extend their networks freely. It is this second dimension that explains the arrest of Daraa, the board wrote. Particularly exposed to terrorism and disinformation campaigns that seek to destabilize democracies, European countries are obliged to step up their vigilance while

respecting the rule of law. For this, the EU has to cross swords with American giants, imbued with the culture of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, which guarantees freedom of speech, and the liberalism of Silicon Valley, which is also concerned with preserving its capacity to innovate and its immense profits, the board said. Usually made I mean a few words. Durov is a special case. Telegram is widely used in Russia, including by the government, which protested against Durov's arrest. Perhaps the Kremlin needs to be reminded

that in Europe, no one is above the law. In the Moscow Times, Konstantin Sonin wrote about why Pavel Durov's detention shook both the Russian opposition and Putin's regime. Unsurprisingly, free market and free speech absolutists were among the first to rally behind him, cherishing Telegram's absence of moderation and its reluctance, if not outright refusal, to comply with laws and regulations. Russian opposition figures and opinion leaders who have relied on Telegram to spread their message also

expressed concern. Yet, intriguingly, Russian military bloggers, worried about the potential for the West to access Telegram's secrets, joined the chorus of supporters. Even Russian government officials and Putin's propagandists, those who once pushed Durov out of business and out of their country, are now voicing their support. In fact, nobody knows what Telegram shares with which governments and under what conditions.

There's no question that Putin's secret services and intelligence agencies wanted Durov to give them control over Telegram, just as they did with VKontakte. It's less clear how much he actually yielded, Sonnen said. Durov's story defies a simple narrative. What is seen as alluring laissez-faire by some is viewed as a capitalist jungle by others. He certainly made good use of the opportunities provided by Putin's corrupt and militaristic regime, but he is also a victim of that same regime. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take. So first of all, it's only possible to discuss the Rob's arrest based on what we know, and to leave some room for my opinion to change if the details do. French authorities have listed the potential charges,

which mostly include complicity in horrible things, like the exchange of child pornography that the platform facilitates. Still, given the limited information we have, this is the kind of arrest that makes the hair on my neck stand up, and it should make yours too. For starters, Derov's arrest is a reminder that some of our contemporaries have a different posture toward free speech than we do. It's hard to imagine U.S. authorities arresting Elon Musk at a New York City airport for violation of moderation policies on X or throwing Mark Zuckerberg in jail because Facebook inadvertently allowed election misinformation to spread. Punishing companies for violating content-related laws

is one thing. Arresting executives for things other people are doing on their platforms is an entirely different matter. Kit Run, the director of Free Expression Projects, said this to the Washington Post, quote, arresting platform executives because of their alleged failures to sufficiently moderate content, even content as disturbing and harmful as content that harms children, starts us down a dangerous road that threatens free expression and gives too much power to the government to suppress speech, end quote. I think that is about as succinctly as you can put it. Seemingly, the worst thing Daraev has done is refuse to hand over relevant information to authorities about users on his platform who are suspected of criminal

activity. This is no small thing. Telegram will now have to operate within the legal boundaries of countries where it operates, which means Derov will have to cooperate with authorities under certain circumstances. Europe, for instance, has beefed up its digital content moderation, and Derov's arrest is a major flashpoint in its early enforcement.

French authorities claim they are primarily investigating an individual who appears not to be Derov, and perhaps they view Telegram's CEO as an impediment to that investigation. Every country is different, and it's possible that some Telegram higher-up had violated French law by refusing to give certain information to law enforcement. At the same time, Derov understands, rightly, that opening up his platform to authorities in any way undermines the very purpose of Telegram for many users, secure communication. It's easy to

sympathize with French authorities seeking a backdoor to Telegram data while investigating the exchange of child pornography. But if Durov grants that request, he grants a precedent. What happens if French President Emmanuel Macron wants to investigate leaks from his office? What if Russian authorities want to crack down on dissidents? If a future U.S. president decides to round up political extremists for prosecution? What's perhaps most frightening about this ordeal is that it could normalize this kind of government strong-arm enforcement internationally, including here at home. As Nick Gillespie pointed out in Reason, two members of the competing presidential tickets

in our election this year have already shown an ignorance or disregard for free speech laws and culture. Donald Trump has long desired to, quote-unquote, open up libel laws so he could sue his critics, and Tim Walz has said there's no guarantee to free speech on misinformation or hate speech, and especially around our democracy, end quote. And Tim Walz has said, there's no guarantee to free speech on misinformation or hate speech,

and especially around our democracy, end quote. More to the point, U.S. law is similar to France's in that it does not protect platforms from prosecution over knowingly permitting transmission of sex abuse or terrorist material. If we follow Europe's lead in dealing with these platforms, U.S. authorities could also start to crack down on similar tech. Obviously, nobody, including me, is rooting for the free exchange of child pornography or the planning of terrorist plots, but that's the never-ending trade-off of free speech. We accept that some people will do horrible things with their freedom, while others will use it to pursue innovative new ideas. Telegram is a perfect example of a place where freedom-seeking dissidents

are just as safe as organized criminals. So, what happens next? I genuinely don't know. Drav may not be nearly as sympathetic of a character as he seems. Plenty of Telegram users abroad believe he is already in cahoots with the Russian government and not exactly the free speech warrior he has been made out to be. Maybe he has personally committed a crime, helped organize crimes, or obstructed investigations.

We just don't know the details yet. But based on what we do know, this arrest feels at odds with a strong culture of free speech. Some rumors suggest that Durov will be released as soon as Wednesday and that perhaps the French government got a little ahead of itself. On the surface, it certainly seems that way. This looks like the kind of government overreach that we should all reject. And it could be the beginning of a long-feared government crackdown on platforms that are still very much worth fighting for. We'll be right back after this quick break. inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Julian in Cincinnati, Ohio. Julian said, Hezbollah, a known terrorist organization, attacked a Druze community in Israel, killing 11 people, including children. Much of the media, Tangle included, referred to the area as Israel-occupied Golan Heights. I am confused. Why is the land being referred to as Israel-occupied? Well, that land used to be a part of Syria. Israel was attacked in 1967, starting the Six-Day War, and captured that land from Syria, again, as the victims of aggression, not as the attackers. Am I missing something? I recognize the extreme nuance in history here, but saying Israel occupied shows a significant bias.

All right, so this is a great question and one that comes from being a sharp reader, so I appreciate the ask. a great question and one that comes from being a sharp reader, so I appreciate the ask. First off, I'd like to point out that Tangle did not, in fact, refer to the Golan Heights as Israel-occupied. We called it Israeli-controlled, which was an intentional distinction meant to acknowledge both sides of the debate on this issue and to note that we were referring to the part of the Golan Heights controlled by Israel, given that some of it still belongs to Syria. To your point, the expression Israeli occupied is a very contentious term in the region, one that I'm well aware of, especially as it applies to the Golan Heights. Second, the history. Israel began occupying the Golan Heights militarily during the 1967 Six-Day

War, but it wasn't until 1981 that it annexed part of the Golan it held, and it's worth pointing out that even today it controls just two-thirds of the 700-square-mile region. The eastern third is now controlled by Syria, but was fought over by Syrian factions for years. A portion of the Druze community, quite literally, is stuck in the middle of this battle. Third, you must consider the last few decades. In 2008, Syria and Israel were discussing a full withdrawal from the region in talks that were moderated by Turkey. Those talks ultimately broke down. In 2010, Israel began developing the Golan more aggressively, which set off a dispute among the Golan Druze living there. Some applied

to be Israeli citizens, and many are loyal to Israel, but others still affirm their loyalty to Syria. It is, simply put, very complicated. Today, the only country that recognizes Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights is the United States. The Golan is viewed as occupied territory by the United Nations and under international law. Given that status, it's fair to qualify it when describing it as part of Israel. These kinds of editorial choices are always hard. We've explained how we make choices like this on issues like abortion, race, and immigration, and this is just another topic where we try to walk a line that is both accurate and acceptable to a wide range of readers. Some, like you, believe

the Golan Heights is part of Israel. Others, like the majority of the world, believe that Israel is occupying it. We landed on Israeli-controlled, which is both accurate and recognizes both perspectives. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod, and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Thanks, Isaac.

Here's your Under the Radar section for today, folks. On Monday, the National Park Foundation announced it had received the largest gift in the organization's history, a $100 million grant from an Indiana-based philanthropic endowment. Created by Congress in 1967, the NPF is the official nonprofit of the National Park Service that enables private citizens and organizations to support the park service through financial and land donations. The $100 million award will likely be shared among hundreds of national park sites, and the NPF CEO said the organization hopes to announce an initial round of grants by the end of the year. The Hill has this story, and there's

a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. Pavel Durov's estimated net worth is $15.5 billion, according to Forbes. The approximate number of monthly Telegram users is 900 million. The approximate number of total Telegram downloads in Russia is 100 million, roughly 10% of the app's total downloads, according to World Population Review. The approximate number of total Telegram downloads in the United States is 20 million. Telegram's rank among the most popular social networks worldwide based on monthly active users is number 8, according to Statista. The approximate percent increase in Telegram users between March 2018 and July 2023 is 300 percent. The percentage of Americans who want to increase regulation

of tech companies is 49 percent, according to a 2021 survey from the Cato Institute. The percentage of Americans who believe social media companies are better than the government at content moderation is 58 percent. And the percentage of Americans who believe that lawmakers and regulators don't understand technology and technology companies well enough to regulate them wisely is 73%. And last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. In India, a number of states provide bicycles free of charge to many girls attending school in an effort to support their enrollment. The program began in 2004, and similar initiatives exist in other nations, including Colombia, Kenya, and Zimbabwe. Indian girls drop out of school more than their male

counterparts, often due to household responsibilities and a distance barrier to school. Nivak Kumari, who received a bicycle as a teenager, reflected, If I didn't have a cycle, I don't think I could have ever finished high school. It changed my life. BBC has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that's it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, you can go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership. We'll be right back here tomorrow.

For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website at readtangle.com. That's readtangle.com.