Tangle - The Biden special counsel report.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News.

Starting point is 00:00:29 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to

Starting point is 00:01:05 your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I am your host, Isaac Stahl. It is Monday, February 12th. Hope those of you who are watching enjoyed the Super Bowl. I had a great time.

Starting point is 00:02:11 The Chiefs, I'm a big Chiefs guy, always rooting for them, pulling for Patrick Mahomes. You know, great game. Glad it happened. Made a little bet on the Chiefs, came out on top. So I'm in a good mood, even though the game went late, which kept me up late. So I'm feeling a little worn down from the totally bonkers week that we had in political news last week that bled into the weekend. We're going to be playing catch up all week because there's just so much going on. Tomorrow, we are going to be covering Tucker Carlson's interview with Vladimir Putin. Today, we're going to be talking about the special counsel investigation into Joe Biden. For those of you who missed it, yesterday, we released an interview Ari and I did with Daniel Blanora, the founder of Ultimate Palestine. At the end of that

Starting point is 00:02:57 interview, which is quite long, we had my immediate reaction to this special counsel report we're going to talk about today. And as you can tell from that interview, I was a little bit shocked by some of the details. We also have a new interview with Bill O'Reilly that we released a transcript of on Friday. There is a podcast version up. There's a YouTube video of it that's up on our channel. And we are coming to New York City for a live event on April 17th. We announced that last week. There are tickets on sale now for the general public and linked to in

Starting point is 00:03:32 our episode description. So there's a ton going on. Today, we are going to cover the Biden classified documents stuff and some of the things about his age and memory that were in this report. and some of the things about his age and memory that were in this report. Before we do, though, as always, we'll kick it off with some quick hits. First up, during oral arguments, the Supreme Court seemed skeptical that former President Donald Trump could be removed from Colorado's ballot under the 14th Amendment. Number two, Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reiterated his plans to send Israeli forces into Rafah, a city in Gaza that borders Egypt. Egyptian officials are also threatening to suspend their decades-long peace treaty with Israel if they send forces into Rafah. treaty with Israel if they send forces into Rafah. Number three, the U.S. Senate advanced a $95 billion standalone foreign aid bill for Ukraine and Israel one day after a package to combine

Starting point is 00:04:32 that aid with border security failed. Separately, after failing to inform the White House of a hospital stay earlier this year, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is back in the hospital with a bladder issue. Number four, former Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson aired a two-hour-long interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Separately, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky fired the country's top general. Number five, former Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, the Republican, announced his intention to run for the Senate. Maryland has not had a Republican senator for 37 years, but his decision is expected to make the 2024 Senate race competitive.

Starting point is 00:05:21 President Biden is firing back at a Justice Department report that's raised questions about his mental acuity. The White House calling comments from the special counsel gratuitous and wrong, but it has given some ammunition to his opponents and caused concern for some Democratic voters. Some Democrats fear the report reinforces voter concerns over the 81-year-old's ability to serve a second term. voter concerns over the 81-year-old's ability to serve a second term. The Biden administration called the special counsel's characterization of the president inaccurate, egregious, and politically motivated. Well, one sentence in that special counsel report put President Biden's age back in the spotlight. And look, it's previously been an issue both men have been reticent to criticize the other on because it's a potential liability for both. But after this week, that's starting to change. On Thursday, in a 388-page report, the special counsel investigating

Starting point is 00:06:13 President Joe Biden's handling of classified documents cleared him of any criminal wrongdoing, but created a fresh political crisis for the White House with details about Biden's mental state during the investigation. Robert Kerr, the special counsel with details about Biden's mental state during the investigation. Robert Kerr, the special counsel, determined that Biden had been sloppy in his handling of classified documents. Biden had willfully disclosed classified materials to a ghostwriter for a memoir he was preparing after his vice presidency and before his presidency. Some of the materials were his handwritten notes, which Biden viewed as his personal property, though they implicated sensitive intelligence sources. Other materials were military and foreign policy documents related to Afghanistan. Herr, a Republican appointee, made several distinctions between the Biden and Trump cases, including that Trump lied to investigators,

Starting point is 00:06:59 refused to relinquish all the documents in his possession, and attempted to obstruct their investigation. Biden, on the other hand, consented to searches of his homes, immediately relinquished material, and sat for interviews with investigators. In some instances, Herr found that Biden did not willfully retain classified documents and the decision not to prosecute him was straightforward. Herr noted, for instance, that Biden told the ghostwriter he had just found the classified stuff downstairs, but since it didn't come up in further interviews or appear in the book, jurors would be convinced it was an innocent mistake. Mark Zwaniser, the ghostwriter, deleted audio recordings from his interviews with Biden after learning of the special counsel's

Starting point is 00:07:38 investigation, but turned over transcripts. The FBI was later able to recover the deleted files and ultimately decided not to prosecute Zwaniser with obstruction. Other explanations for the decision not to prosecute Biden in this case were less clear. One of the reasons Herr cited immediately created a fresh political firestorm of its own. Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory, the report said. Investigators who interviewed Biden, now 81 years old, described him as having diminished faculties in advancing age and said at various points in the interview process

Starting point is 00:08:16 he could not remember which years he was vice president or when his son Beau died. The details of the report touch on a particularly sensitive issue for Biden. In November, a New York Times-Siena College polling found that over 70% of voters in six battleground states agreed with the statement that Biden was just too old to be an effective president. President Biden immediately held a press conference after the report's release, emphasizing the report cleared him and criticizing some of her comments, which his team called shabby work and extraneous commentary. How the hell dare he raise that, Biden said, of the detail that he could not remember when his son Beau had died? Every Memorial Day, we hold a service remembering

Starting point is 00:08:55 him attended by friends and family and people who loved him. I don't need anyone, I don't need anyone to remind me when he passed away, Biden said. Biden also said the interviews were conducted in the two days after Hamas's October 7th attack in Israel, and stressed that he spent five hours sitting for the interviews despite being in the midst of an international crisis. However, toward the end of the press conference, Biden mistakenly referred to the president of Egypt as the president of Mexico. Today, we're going to explore some reactions to the report from the right and the left, and then my take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. First up, we'll start with what the right is saying. The right feels vindicated by the report

Starting point is 00:09:48 and questions whether Democrats will continue to support Biden. Some suggest the report puts Democrats in a political bind, admit Biden broke the law, or accept that he's too old to serve. Others wonder if Democrats will move to replace Biden as their nominee. The Wall Street Journal editorial board asked, will Democrats continue to ignore the growing risks of the president's mental frailties? Democrats are raging against Mr. Herr, but they should be grateful. Mr. Biden's mental frailty is one reason Mr. Herr offered for not presenting the president's document mishandling as a criminal offense by a jury. His report is also forcing Democrats to confront the political

Starting point is 00:10:25 reality that Mr. Biden's decline could re-elect Donald Trump, the board wrote. Such decline is part of the human condition, and it's not Mr. Biden's fault. What is his fault is telling the American people that he can capably serve another four years as president. The voters can see this, which is why even most Democrats tell pollsters they doubt Mr. Biden is up to another term, the board added. This is dangerous politically for Democrats, but it's also a grave risk for the country. The world is as dangerous as it's been since the 1930s, with U.S. adversaries on the march. This would be challenging for a young, vigorous leader. It's perilous for a president who will be 82 years old before a second inauguration and who is already showing

Starting point is 00:11:05 visible signs of failing memory and lapsed concentration. In The Federalist, David Harsanyi wrote, either Biden is an elderly man with a poor memory or he needs to be charged. Biden was cognizant enough to blatantly lie, first about not sharing classified material with a ghostwriter and then about not having high classified documents in his possession, Harsanyi said. You remember those leaked pictures of folders marked classified splayed across the floor at Mar-a-Lago? This is the same. And surely the same people who spent inordinate amounts of time cheering on the prosecutions of Donald Trump understand that no one is above the law. Double standards no longer matter, but this is a little bit on the nose. Lots of Democrats argue that it's different because Biden cooperated with

Starting point is 00:11:49 authorities. First off, getting a lawyer and challenging charges leveled at you is well within the rights of any American. Second, Biden didn't cooperate. A lawyer happened upon the classified information, Arsani wrote, which leaves us with two questions. If Biden is too old to be charged, isn't he too old to hold the most powerful position in the world? And if he's not too old to hold the most powerful position in the world, why is he too old to be charged? In the Washington Examiner, Kayleigh McGee White argued that the Democratic Party doesn't care about Joe Biden, it cares about power. Her report was a clear message that the DOJ and the Democratic establishment it represents are no longer willing to protect Biden politically. Herr surely would

Starting point is 00:12:31 have found some other legal excuse for refusing to apply the law to Biden. And Attorney General Merrick Garland did not have to make the findings of Herr's report public. It is not a far reach to assume that both decisions were calculated, White said. The Democratic establishment doesn't care about re-electing Biden. It only cares about preventing Trump from being elected. Now, the polls show that Mr. Biden has lost whatever general election appeal he might have had. He has been behind Trump in all of the battleground states for weeks, and his approval ratings show no sign of recovery. And his continued gaffes and blunders will only exasperate voters'

Starting point is 00:13:05 top concern about him, that he's not fit to do the job. In short, Biden has become a liability. Whether the Democratic establishment succeeds in pushing him aside is another question. But there is no doubt at this point that it wants to. If Biden were smart, he'd bow out now while he has some dignity left. All right, that is it for the rightist thing, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is concerned by Herr's report and suggests the president needs to do more to counter it. Some say the press is incorrectly framing the report's findings. Others lament that Biden and Trump are held to different standards by the media,

Starting point is 00:13:55 despite both making frequent gaffes. The New York Times editorial board wrote about the challenges of an aging president. Mr. Biden's allies are already going to the usual Washington playbook of dismissing the special counsel's report as partisan. Regardless of Mr. Herr's motivation, the details that he presented spoke to worries voters already had. The president has to reassure and build confidence with the public by doing things he has so far been unwilling to do convincingly. He needs to be out campaigning with voters far more in unrehearsed interactions. He could undertake more town hall meetings in communities and on national television. He should hold regular news conferences to demonstrate his command of and direction for leading the country. The combination of Mr. Biden's age and his absence from the public

Starting point is 00:14:35 stage has eroded the public's confidence. He looks as if he is hiding, or worse, being hidden. The details in Mr. Herr's report will only heighten those concerns, which Mr. Trump's campaign is already exploiting, the board said. This is a dark moment for Mr. Biden's presidency when many voters are relying on him to provide the country with a compelling alternative to the unique danger of Mr. Trump. He needs to do more to show the public that he is fully capable of holding office until age 86. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back.

Starting point is 00:15:16 CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:15:55 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. In Just Security, Andrew Weissman and Ryan Goodman argued that the special counsel report has been misinterpreted. Her report has been grossly mischaracterized by the press. The report finds that the evidence of a knowing, willful violation of the criminal laws is wanting, Weissman and Goodman said. There is simply no case. Unrefuted, innocent explanations is the sine qua non of not just

Starting point is 00:16:25 the case that does not meet the standard for criminal prosecution, it means innocence. Or, as former Attorney General Bill Barr and his former boss would have put it, a total vindication. The press has gotten the lead wrong, they added. What the report actually says is there's insufficient evidence of criminality, innocent explanations for the conduct, and affirmative evidence that Biden did not willfully withhold classified documents. Put another way, that same sentence about our investigation uncovered evidence could equally apply to Mike Pence, who had classified documents at his house, which is similarly some evidence of a crime, but also plainly insufficient to remotely establish criminality. In Vox, Andrew Prokop said Biden and Trump are both old. Only one got a special counsel memory

Starting point is 00:17:12 test. Though Trump is being prosecuted in four different criminal cases, he's not yet been unlucky enough to have a special counsel publicly weigh in on his mental fitness. Biden's the one who now has that problem, Brokop wrote. Her's report may seem at first glance to bolster the GOP case, but on a closer read, the examples of Biden's poor memory or verbal mix-ups are similar to verbal flubs Trump has publicly made in recent months. Consider that all of the following has happened in recent months. Trump has said that either Barack Obama is president or that he had run against Obama for the presidency at least seven times. Trump mixed up Nikki Haley and Nancy Pelosi, claiming Haley was in charge of security at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021.

Starting point is 00:17:54 During a deposition, Trump identified a picture of E. Jean Carroll, who accused him of rape, as a picture of his ex-wife, Marla Maples. Both of our presidential nominees-in-waiting are inexact speakers of advanced age who get mixed up on the facts. All right, that is it for the left and the right, which brings us to my take. All right, first off, I know this isn't the story now,

Starting point is 00:18:32 but given that this was an investigation into Biden's handling of classified documents, I do think it is worth starting there. It is good news for Biden that he won't be prosecuted. Herr genuinely did clear him of most wrongdoing and explained in pretty significant detail why Biden's classified documents case is not worth prosecuting and how it's very different from Trump's. Some writers, like David Harsanyi, under what the right is saying, who claimed, quote, this is the same, are simply wrong to equate the two. Again, Herr concedes there is very little evidence Biden ever willfully or knowingly mishandled these documents, and his cooperation is detailed at length. The investigation into Trump concluded almost the polar opposite, that he intentionally took them, never disclosed them, and then obstructed the

Starting point is 00:19:14 investigation into his mishandling. From a political perspective, the issue obviously is that how Trump or Biden handled classified documents is not going to be very important to most voters. I've been saying that since long before this report was released. Trump's legal issues are a very real threat to his candidacy, but the classified documents case is perhaps the least potent of them. For Biden, that he was ever under investigation for an almost identical reason was always going to nullify the use of Trump's handling of classified documents as a political weapon. Now, even if Trump does get convicted, the result of these two investigations might even end up being more damaging for Biden than Trump. On Thursday, my podcast co-hosts Ari and I were just about to begin our interview with Daniel Bonora from Ultimate Palestine

Starting point is 00:20:00 when this report dropped. My reaction was genuine shock. Both at the special counsel included these details in his report and at just how politically damaging the details are for Biden. I understand why some people criticize her and believe these comments were inappropriate or extraneous. I disagree. I think this kind of detail is important, and I think the American public should know the fine points of how investigations proceed. I don't think Herr's observations are political. I think what he is seeing is apparent to most Americans who watch Biden in interviews or press conferences, which are already few and far between. There was a lot of data out there about the threat Biden's appearance and age poses to his re-election bid. We got more of it over the weekend when ABC Ipsos released a

Starting point is 00:20:46 new poll showing 86% of Americans view President Biden is too old for a second term, for what it's worth 62% feel the same way about Trump too. The details special counsel Robert Herr put in writing that Biden struggled to remember things, that interviews move painfully slow because of his mental acuity, and that jurors would be sympathetic to him as an elderly man are not going to improve those numbers. All of this is going to ramp up pressure on Biden and Democrats to solve this issue, which to me looks unsolvable. Biden and his surrogates can run the best campaign in American history, but they aren't going to convince voters of the things they can see and read right in front of them. Even in the cleanup, the waters were choppy. I actually thought Biden did well in the first few minutes of his press conference. He was adversarial, stern, and clear. But then he referred to President

Starting point is 00:21:35 Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt as the president of Mexico, and the very thing he was trying to reassure people about was right back front and center. This isn't going to go away. A lot of friends texted me over the weekend asking if Democrats would replace Biden, and the answer is clearly no. They aren't going to change course unless their hand is absolutely forced, and even if they wanted to, they've long since missed their opportunity. Plenty of people have also suggested that Vice President Kamala Harris is the real problem, as voters concerned with Biden's age are also worried about her having to assume office. Similarly, I see very little chance she is replaced on the ticket, and all indications point to the Biden campaign leaning into her as his running mate and rehabilitating her image with

Starting point is 00:22:19 the public. The election is still eight months away, but the dueling talking points are clarified. the public. The election is still eight months away, but the dueling talking points are clarified. Biden is going to frame Trump as a criminal bully who fumbled the pandemic and isn't fit to be president. Well, Trump is going to frame Biden as a dementia-rattled old man who left the border open and ruined the economy. Then the voters are going to be left trying to decide which person they want less and vote the other way. As we keep relearning, a lot can happen in a week, let alone a month. But for now, Trump just got a lot more ammunition for his narrative. Rather than finding absolution, Biden has run headfirst into one of his biggest weaknesses in this election. And you can expect this report to come up over and over between now and November.

Starting point is 00:23:09 between now and November. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Ron in Oak Harbor, Ohio. Ron said, why can't the case of Trump taking classified records proceed? This does not involve presidential immunity. So actually, Trump's classified documents case is proceeding on schedule, and the legal arguments in his other cases aren't impacting it. Presidential immunity is not something Donald Trump has argued in his classified documents suit that, like his federal election interference case, is being brought by special counsel Jack Smith. He's arguing that he had the executive privilege of document declassification as president

Starting point is 00:23:53 and could therefore keep whatever records he wanted. That isn't the only argument he has used, just the most recent one. As a reminder, when we last covered this case in June, Trump had already argued that he didn't have the documents, then that evidence of them was planted, then that he had retroactively declassified them. He also argued, before the investigation into President Biden was even opened, that other presidents have left office with documents and that an inconsistent standard was being applied to him. While his other arguments haven't been very convincing, we got a reminder today why what appears to be Trump's most convincing defense, that this prosecution

Starting point is 00:24:29 represents an inconsistent standard, may also end up being insufficient. Unlike Biden, Trump has been accused of obstructing efforts to retrieve the documents he's been accused of retaining, as well as conspiring with aides Walter Nauta and Mar-a-Lago property manager Carlos de Oliveira to move the documents and conceal them. Lastly, Smith and the Justice Department allege Trump to have retained a much greater number of documents, some of which are alleged to contain the highest level of classified information. It's the logistics around retrieving those documents, as well as coordinating with former President Trump's other trials and candidate Trump's campaigning that have affected the trial date, not any pending argument about immunity. In July of last year, U.S. Judge Eileen Cannon of the Southern Florida District set a trial date

Starting point is 00:25:15 for May 20th, and the case appears to be proceeding on schedule. While I write this on Monday, February 12th, Trump is appearing before that judge in a sensitive compartmented information facility in Fort Pierce, Florida. The way the legal arguments proceed from here will be a separate story, but presidential immunity probably won't play a big factor. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to our Under the Radar section. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. apologized to his family on Sunday for a Super PAC ad that ran during the Super Bowl promoting his presidential campaign. The ad, which cost $7 million, relied heavily on imagery from former President John F. Kennedy's 1960 presidential campaign. Members of his family

Starting point is 00:26:03 criticized the ad and the use of JFK's likeness. I'm so sorry if the Super Bowl advertisement caused anyone in my family pain, RFK Jr. said. The ad was created and aired by the American Values Super PAC without any involvement or approval from my campaign. FEC rules prohibit Super PACs from consulting with me or my staff. I love you all. God bless you. However, the ad shared by his team on X immediately after airing is still pinned atop his profile. The Hill has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The percentage of Americans who think Biden

Starting point is 00:26:44 should have been charged with a crime for his handling of classified documents after he left office as vice president is 38%, according to a new ABC News Ipsos poll. The percentage of Americans who think he should not have been charged was 34%. The percentage of U.S. voters who say they have doubts about Joe Biden's fitness to serve as president is 63%, according to a January 2024 poll by Harvard Caps Harris. The percentage of U.S. voters who say Biden has shown he is too old to be president is 69%. The percentage of Americans who say both President Biden and former President Trump are too old to serve another term as president is 59%. And the percentage of U.S. voters who say the country needs another choice for president besides Biden and Trump is 59%. And the percentage of U.S. voters who say the country needs another choice for president

Starting point is 00:27:25 besides Biden and Trump is 64%. All right, that is it for our numbers section, which brings us last but not least to our Have a Nice Day story. Thanks to a scientific fertility breakthrough, there's new hope for the northern white rhino, a species that has two remaining members on the planet. This month, scientists have achieved the world's first IVF rhino pregnancy, transferring a lab-created rhino embryo into a surrogate mother. The procedure was carried out with southern white rhinos, a closely related subspecies, and next will be done with northern white embryos. I think with this achievement, we are very confident that we will be able to create northern white rhinos in the same manner,

Starting point is 00:28:09 and that we will be able to save the species, said Suzanne Holtz, a scientist at Leibniz Institute for Zoo and Wildlife Research in Germany. The BBC News has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, you can go to reedtangle.com forward slash membership. Don't forget new stuff up on the YouTube. Tickets on sale right now for our live event,

Starting point is 00:28:43 New York on April 17th. A podcast interview that came out on Sunday with Daniel Bonora in case you missed it. Lots of good stuff happening. We'll be right back here same time tomorrow talking Tucker and Vladimir Putin. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com

Starting point is 00:29:25 and check out our website. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases

Starting point is 00:30:09 have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu.

Starting point is 00:30:23 It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca.

Tangle - The Biden special counsel report.

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