Tangle - The Decision

Episode Date: November 3, 2024

With the election just days away, we questioned our undecideds about some of the comments they have individually made throughout the series, probed further into those statements, and ultimately discovered if they have made a decision on how they are voting.You can⁠⁠⁠ subscribe to Tangle by clicking here⁠⁠⁠ or drop something⁠⁠⁠ in our tip jar by clicking here.⁠⁠⁠The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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From Tangle Media and founder isaac saul and executive producer john long this is the undecided This is The Undecideds. I'm Isaac Saul, and welcome to Episode 8 of The Undecideds. The road to the 2024 election has been fraught with many surprising twists and turns, but the long and winding journey for our undecided voters is now nearing its end. We have followed Zahid from California, Claire from Ohio, Brian from Arizona, Diana from Florida, and Phil from Pennsylvania since March

of this year. We have tracked their thoughts on major events, such as former President Donald Trump's criminal investigations, his felony conviction, and the assassination attempts against him. We've listened to their concerns about President Joe Biden's cognitive ability, his poor debate performance, and his ultimate departure from the race. We've witnessed their reactions to Vice President Kamala Harris replacing Biden at the top of the ticket, her first televised interview, and a debate with Trump that arguably brought the state of the race to a dead heat. As we approach Election Day, we questioned our undecideds about some of the comments they have individually made throughout the series, probed further into those statements, and ultimately discovered if they have made a decision on how they are voting.

The election is now four days away. All right, I'm here for maybe one of the last times with Claire from Ohio. How are you doing today, Claire? I'm good. How are you? I'm all right. Getting by. I think we're all just trying to hang on until after November 5th and well, maybe the 6th or 7th or 8th or whatever it ends up being. Yeah. We're getting into the home stretch here. So I just wanted to start generally and ask if there's anything that you've been thinking about in the recent weeks. There's been no shortage of news about Trump's campaign stops, Harris's series of interviews and wanted to see, you know,

what your general reactions are coming into the last stretch of the election. Yeah, it's one of those things where it feels like both nothing has changed and everything has changed because obviously the timeline for a decision is getting shorter and shorter. But I don't think my viewpoints have shifted majorly i think they've shifted maybe subtly towards like being i don't know maybe closer to like 50 for harris and then like 30 third party and then like another 10 either not voting for president at all or trump um so i think just as the timeline gets closer i'm like i have to make a decision. And that's forcing like those percentages to zero in a little bit or to narrow. But I think like my general viewpoints have stayed the same. And I've definitely been having a lot of conversations with people.

I've seen a lot of people being like, oh, are there any undecided voters out there? Do those still exist? And me being like, yes, please change my mind. I'm having a lot of good conversations with people who are trying to get me to vote Harris or some arguing not to vote at all, various things. So there's been, I think, a lot of good conversations from people asking me important pointed questions that I should be thinking about. But actively trying not to be undecided anymore. Yeah, it's getting to a point where it's like, I have to make a decision and I don't want to think about it anymore.

I just want to go into the voting booth, do my thing, and then it's out of my hands. And I want to stop reading the news and having to consider and second guess things. I would rather be like, cool, I'm decided. November 5th is going to come. I'm going to do my thing and I'm going to leave and that'll be the end of it. Well, we'll get there when we get there,

I guess. Eventually time marches on. But you mentioned this overall impression that you had about the percentages of where you're leaning with the choices that you have in front of you for this election. And something that we're doing today is we're just trying to engage in a little bit of pushback to some of the reasoning that the different undecided voters, yourself included, have given throughout this process. And I want to start with the third party option, which you listed as somewhere between 30 and 10%. And I was just curious if you think that this was something that you were legitimately going to do after the primary season was over. I know that you really had a candidate that you were excited about, Nikki Haley, during the Republican process.

But after the primary season was over, you mentioned that RFK Jr. wasn't somebody that you felt motivated to support. So I'm wondering if that was really an option for you or if it was just something that you were saying was an option for you. I think it was and still is an option for me. I would probably be looking at Chase Oliver as a third party candidate that I would actually consider supporting. And I think it's one of those things where, for me, if both major candidates are just so bad that they're not willing to earn my vote, then I would rather signal that we need to change the system because, and maybe this is just me being like a naive young person, but I don't want to vote for the lesser of two evils for the rest of my life. And it's very important to me that we create a better system for producing candidates.

And so for me, it's a very serious consideration that I would rather vote for change than vote for two people I feel like are just so bad, either one will make my life worse. Right. So I think for me, it is something I'd seriously do. Okay. And so for our listeners, Chase Oliver, the libertarian candidate, can you just briefly explain what it is about his positions or him as a candidate that you find appealing? Yeah, I definitely don't agree with him on anything, but I have some libertarian tendencies that I think like the positions i do disagree

with him on i'm like that's understandable i see your reasoning i think i could live with that if that's something that actually happened um and i definitely kind of agree with a more fiscally conservative socially like libertarian or slightly liberal position i think some of the concerns i have about republican candidates like socially um i could get behind a more libertarian candidate um and then and that's like when i do vote republican it tends to be people who aren't culture warriors and are just more focused on being fiscally conservative um and then like just more focused on being fiscally conservative um and then like i'm not an expert on his positions by any means because i also don't think he's gonna win it's more like if i'm going to vote third party that's the third party person i would most align with but obviously i also know it's

pretty much impossible for him to actually win so like there are limits to i'm not going to dive into his policies potentially to the degree i am with the other two, because it's more like, if you're voting third party, I guess it's more of a symbolic gesture than one that's like, I have to have a decision, agree or disagree on every single policy. Right. And I think that's maybe the source of my pushback here is that if it's a candidate that you're thinking, I could maybe see the appeal of, but you don't feel as drawn to his positions to the point where you would actually do the research that you would want to do for a candidate that you really appeal to. It sounds like the difference between a protest or it sounds like it's closer to a protest vote than a I'm going to find the right candidate for me to select because that right candidate you're acknowledging could be somebody with such a limited following that it amounts to a protest vote. So I'm just wondering, like, I think that's maybe my question is if there is going to be a candidate that reaches that

threshold of support that you would consider a viable candidate to vote for, if you think that is a thing that would ultimately be a choice that you could see yourself making on election day. Yeah, I think it's kind of, as you expressed, like it's, it's a little bit of a combination of like, it kind of has, it feels like it has to be a protest vote by default, but at the same time, it's like, what I have seen has been good. I haven't seen any major red flags and I have done some research. Um, I might do a little bit more. No, it's, no, it's good. Um, um i might do a little bit more none no it's no it's good um but yeah it's it's like i might do a little bit more research but and i would like to vote for someone that i feel like oh i actually

really like them they are meeting a threshold of my support not just my opposition to everything else. But yeah, at the same time, I think I have to be realistic about does it really matter at the end of the day whether I'm voting to support him or I'm voting to oppose the other things I would love to support. But at the same time, at the end of the day, it's like the decision is whether or not to vote for him regardless of the reasons or to vote for the other two major two-party candidates. And so there's a sense in which it's like, how much more research do I need to do? I can do more out of interest and maybe I will, but does it matter whether he meets a threshold of support or not? Or does it matter the decision whether I'm going to vote for a major candidate or not? Like there it matter the decision whether I'm going to vote for a major candidate

or not? Like there's two different decisions there. Zahid, thank you so much again for joining us. Sure. Happy to be here. All right. We are less than two weeks out from the election. I can't believe it myself. It feels like I got here real quick. First, it felt like it was never going to show up, and then I got here real fast. So for this episode, I wanted to, you know, it's going to be our last one before the election. I wanted to go back to some things that we've talked about before and kind of, you know, assess the road to where we've gotten to and, you know, get your final word on where you are at in your vote. So I'm going to start by going back to something that you said in episode one.

A few of our listeners have mentioned it, and I thought it was an interesting place to start. You originally had mentioned that you were kind of disappointed with the direction of the Democratic Party, particularly in your home state of California. It does seem, though, that you've remained pretty squarely with the Democrats. So I'm going to ask first, was there ever a point where you would have considered voting for Donald Trump? point where you would have considered voting for Donald Trump? Yes. So let me define maybe a little bit. So you could say that I was dissatisfied. But for me, being dissatisfied would mean like,

I know I don't like someone. And to be undecided for me, it felt like, okay, I don't know who I'm going to vote for. So I would compare it to the previous elections. I would say that in 2020, I knew for a fact who I was voting for. There was no point where I was undecided. But sometime around 2022, I was like, okay, I really need to now look into who I need to be voting for, because I was just like not feeling it from both sides. But that didn't mean I hated both sides. It just meant

that I was not like decided in terms of who I'm going to be voting for. And as far as California politics go, it's very Democrat heavy. So it's dominated by Democrats. So I've always been of the belief that a lot of the problems in California specifically is because you have this majority that takes care of all these laws that go into place, which has affected me, you know, been in California for the past 20 to 23 years. And so it has directly affected me and I've seen it. So there's a dissatisfaction with the Democratic Party within California. And in general, I also feel like Democratic Party has failed in a lot of ways and the Republican Party has done a lot more. So there is always that.

After the first presidential debate between Biden and Trump, you know, I think the sentiment there was that there was a lot of disappointment and discouragement after seeing Biden's performance. You know, you mentioned that there might have been a point where you would have voted for Trump. After that debate, where there was kind of a little bit of ambiguity if Biden was staying in or not. Is that a time where you might have considered voting for Trump? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because, I mean, I know both of them are old, but there is something about Trump that doesn't make him, like, at least from the outside, feel that he is as old as Biden. So I would have definitely considered Trump. And I even considered Trump after the assassination attempt on him, because I was like, maybe this would be the time where he might be a little bit

grounded in terms of how he communicates, how he portrays himself. But really, that really didn't change anything for him. And so that was a little disappointed there. And then since that time, it's like, it's just been downhill. And I just wish that he had seen, you know, the writing on the wall and said, hey, you know what, there is a possibility here that I might actually win because it's 50-50. possibility here that I might actually win because it's 50-50. And I might need to appeal, be a little bit more diplomatic in my approach to going after people like me who are undecided. And I think he failed. Are there any particular policies that you've heard Trump or Vance, for that matter, mention that you would like to see the Democrats

adopt? It definitely would be one of those no taxes on tips sort of thing. I think Kamala Harris has also mentioned that, that she also plans on doing something similar or maybe exactly the same. As far as other economic things go, I was not really happy with the student loan forgiveness as someone who is still paying student loans. And there will be no point where I, my loans will be forgiven because, you know, I have a decent job and stuff. So I make a certain income. And so I felt that that was a little too much because there was a lot of maneuvering around it to get it passed or to make sure that it happens. You know, I do feel for people who might have had student loans that are maybe given to them based on like, for example, you get this degree and you will get a job that offers you the salary outright. And maybe they might have

been in a situation where, yeah, it was not possible to ever get that kind of job that would help them pay certain loans. And I know that happened a lot. But other than that, I think most people who do take out loans, I feel like they should be willing to pay it back once they have graduated and have a job. So I felt that that was a little too much, especially given the inflation situation back then was not also that great. So I felt like that's going to be a disaster. Okay, this is Meg Delaina, speaking with Brian from Arizona. Hello. Yeah, Brian, we're here. We're almost here. It's been a journey. here. It's been a journey. It's been a few months that we've been talking and I'm curious,

just some general reflections on, you know, when we first spoke to you at the very, very beginning, even before I spoke to you, but when you applied to do this show. I'm just curious what kind of reflections you've had from where you were at at that point and where you're at now. Yeah. Yeah, there's been a lot of reflecting going on. Just thinking about when Will first reached out to me. And first when I saw the application, I thought, what an interesting idea to document the experience of people who don't know how to approach this. I felt like I was a prime example

of that because for me, it's a faith issue and there's a lot of biblical elements tied up in all this. So I thought, you know what, what better way to really force myself to think through the issue than to add stakes to the matter and to go public with it? I thought, what a great idea. And then, you know, talking to Will, I explained kind of where I'm at and my thoughts and feelings. And there's a lot different now than when I initially applied. Obviously, my worldview has not changed. My faith has not changed. But all the circumstances around us that have shaped this election cycle, that's been a wild, wild, wild ride. Never in a million years could have imagined this is where we would be now with just an odd turn of events in a lot of different ways. So it's been a growing up process. I feel like I've had to grow up through some of this because

I haven't always had the most mature outlook on elections. Like I said before, I used to just think, no, I'll just vote with my family or I'll just vote my party just because like that's the safest bet. But now it's like, okay, I've thought through it. I have to figure this out. So definitely changed man as a result of this process. You know, I think one of our first conversations, you mentioned this consistent Christian value, and that part of your undecidedness around Trump was because of, you know, his maybe, I don't know if I want to say inability to reflect those values, but you've struggled with that. You know, he's not your ideal candidate. You've been, you know, pretty open about that.

But as we've watched this election cycle play out, do you think those concerns about him, those values that he may lack or either, you know, each candidate lacks for you. But for Trump specifically, do you think those concerns have lessened as you've gone through the election cycle? Have they increased? Have they stayed the same as you've gotten to know him, you know, in 2024? I'd say they've been about the same. There have been some interesting moments and interesting takes that I've seen that caused me to kind of raise an eyebrow and like say,

oh, I wonder what kind of merit this might have in the overall outlook of Trump. So like I've seen him say some interesting things late in, I think it was 2020. No, it had to have been, it was obviously this year, I think, but something related to abortion, talking about his stance and then seeing where some of the more detailed questions come out. It's been kind of moments of like, oh, this could be interesting. And then it's like, okay, at least leaning in the right direction, but still, still not where I would love him to be. In terms of just personality, I think he's kind of

an arrogant guy. You know, a lot of the same stuff previously is about at the same level of concern as it was then. So I'm still just as concerned. And that's unfortunate. But then again, one of the things that kind of shifted my paradigm as I've been thinking through this is, and I might have shared this in a previous episode, I can't remember, but there's this great analogy that an election cycle and your leaders of the country, whoever's leading, it's almost analogous to a thermostat. A lot of people think that we've got to try and set the thermostat by putting people in office when the reality is instead of that setting the temperature aspect, it's more of an indicator aspect and that our political candidates tell

us what the climate is already like right now. So with our current candidates, we have a political climate that is just, it's God's judgment, really, is what the signs all point to. And that's more an indicator and putting someone in an office or taking them out of office and all that kind of stuff. All of that commotion is part of the indication aspect of how a thermometer works. It doesn't actually set the thermometer. works. It doesn't actually set the thermometer. The setting the thermometer is really in the hands of other entities, other spheres in God's economy. So really, yes, the concerns with Trump are still there, but the way that I view them now is different than how I viewed them before. And that I think it's, I don't think it's as worrisome to me anymore. You know, still not an ideal guy, but I'm not as, I'm not as undecided

because of that specifically anymore. That makes sense. Yeah, I think that does make sense. Um, I did want to just, I was wondering, cause thought of you specifically, you know, there's been, you know, abortion has been like a big issue this election cycle. And Trump has said in the past, it should be up to the states to decide. it should be up to the states to decide. And he got pressed pretty hard on where he would stand and ended up saying in early October, I believe, that he would not support a federal abortion ban. He said he would veto it. He went that far. I don't know if you heard about that, but I was wondering, I know that this is like a big issue for you um so i'm wondering did that matter to you or did that carry much weight in him saying that it's it's definitely a weighty matter what i would have liked to have seen as just a conservative christian i'm also an abolitionist in the abortion issue. I think abortion should be totally abolished. And that just comes from the worldview aspect of how do we define our terms.

worldview is what informs me on how I define all of the terms relevant to the issue. So I think, honestly, it should be done away with altogether. And of course, with that being where I'm coming from, Trump failing to go so far as to say that he would veto like going all that way and saying that he would not support a federal ban of course that's upsetting because it's like this is a real big issue and you know a consistent christian worldview is going to inform um the reality of the situation and it's more than and this is where a lot of people are like, well, your beliefs against my beliefs and stuff like that. And understandably so. It really, who can be the most consistent in all of this? Because obviously there's a morality behind what we're talking about here. Whose moral system is justified and can be, in essence,

which one is consistent with how things truly are. What's the foundation? What is the presuppositions that give you a morality in the first place? It's at that level that I'd love to see people talking, but it never gets there. And Trump, like any other candidate, they never get there. And so in terms of wittiness, of course, it's like, okay, there's an indication. Yes, we've got another candidate who is a reflection of the culture that we live in. And with that being the case it's just it's more of like all right another black stain on a cloth full of black stains you know it's like okay one more addition up there doesn't really change the picture all that much it's still not ideal but you know until the conversation really

starts getting weightier it's probably just gonna be staring at a black canvas without much of a difference. So, yeah, it doesn't really affect me as much just because of how I see the situation. But it's still definitely kind of like, I guess I shouldn't expect anymore. But this is a sign of the times we're in. I guess I shouldn't expect anymore, but this is a sign of the time to learn. I feel nice to talk to you again. My first question for you is going to go back to December when we first connected, when you and I were just talking as we were in the process of putting this show together.

And one of the things that I remember you mentioning in our first call was your concerns about Trump's character, that being kind of a fundamental reason why you were undecided this election, why you hadn't voted for him or hadn't voted for any candidate the last two elections. I'm curious, when you think about your decision this year and you think about how your thoughts on the election have evolved over the past year, do you think those character concerns you initially expressed to me have lessened, have increased, or stayed about the same? And the character issues are the crucial issues for me. Because character, I think, is destiny. because character, I think, is destiny.

This would not be a difficult election for me if it weren't for the person of Trump. If there had been any other Democratic candidate that won, perhaps even as inexperienced as he is, if it were J.D. Vance, I wouldn't be having the problem I'm having. Because I am on the issues, I definitely prefer the Republican platform, and I'm more concerned about the drift of our culture and our political situation due to elitist Democratic tendencies. But because of his care, I'm stuck. And they haven't been lessened.

But then I don't know that they could get much worse after January 6th and all the other issues related to who he is. He is who he is. I mean, that is one thing. I mean, you know what you're getting. A related question goes back to something that you said a couple conversations ago. I think it was one of the most interesting comments you've made over the course of our conversations. I think it's one of the most interesting observations we've had in this entire show. And that was the comment that Kamala Harris made in her CNN interview about her values not changing, how that made you reflect on your own values, and actually pushed you towards considering voting for Trump

as seriously as you had up to that point. My question there, after reflecting a bit on that, is that how confident are you that Trump actually would follow through on supporting those conservative policies and ideals that you might think you would get from him just by virtue of being a Republican president or Republican administration? Do you feel like you can trust that he would actually lead the party in a direction, at least generally, that you would be in favor of? I'm mainly thinking about his first term policies that increased the deficit, the debt, didn't show as much attention to that issue, hasn't shown that much attention to that issue, which is, I think, typically what we associate

with a conservative or fiscal conservative position. That's just one example, but I'm curious how you think about that. We could also add his backtracking on the abortion issue. Sure. You know, character is destiny, and I don't trust Trump's – I don't see him as a principled man. And so, I don't know. But based on what he did last time, there's a power in two things. One is the power of appointment. And it's pretty significant, whether it's appointing judges. And I'm not just talking about Supreme Court justices, but I'm talking about all up and down the levels. But I'm talking about all up and down the levels and cabinet members who influence the bureaucracy. So there's an opportunity. And I do think he would follow through and adopt appointments that would resist the flow toward a progressive liberal agenda, whether it's DEI or otherwise. And he's been consistent on that. So he'd follow through on that. He's never been really good on the debt issue, although most of what he did in terms of the debt was a response to the COVID epidemic. I do believe that he seemed to be, and I can't, I don't attribute the economy to the president. It's a much more complex thing than

that. But if we were to judge the president by his economy before COVID, I think he was, he was having a positive influence, or at least the market seemed to think he was having a positive influence. Whether that would happen in today's climate, I don't know. But because his proposals don't add up to any kind of conservative approach, I think both parties are failing to address the fundamental issues of an increasingly imbalanced budget, which is by definition inflationary and is not going to produce a healthy future. And neither party is running on reversing that. When you think back about your reaction after the Harris CNN interview, has that feeling stayed with you? I think that was about a month ago that we talked.

How do you reflect back on that now? I think it was clarifying for me, because it made me say, okay, I do believe your values haven't changed. Even though you're tracking toward the center in your posture, I think what you have believed over time will surface. Well, likewise, at almost every point, my values lead in different directions from Kamala. And not always radically different. I consider myself kind of centrist right, but still right. centrist right, but still right, and certainly resisting anything that goes in progressive directions. So, no, that's what's making it so hard for me, because I would rather vote, if you will, for the red team than the blue team, because I'd like to see, not that I agree with everything, but I think it would lead to a resistance to a directional drift that I would like to see take place.

So, nothing Kamala's done indicates to me that she and I share values in a deep and significant way. All right. We're back on The Undecideds, episode eight, our last episode before the election. And we are with Diana again. Thank you so much for joining us. Hi, John. It's good to see you again. Good to see you too. Yeah. All right. So because it's the last episode, I am going to go back a ways all the way to the beginning. And I want to kind of walk through a little bit of the journey to this decision for your vote. So when we first met, you described yourself as a conservative, more fiscal than social.

And as the episodes went on, you said you identified more as an independent. On that, I want to ask, do you feel like that shift, if you would describe it as that, do you feel like that shift would be because of the leadership in the Republican Party currently? Or do you think that your values may have shifted in this time? Or do you think that your values may have shifted in this time? Well, actually, I think maybe I was probably always, to a certain degree, an independent. But in the states that I've lived in, you could not vote in the primaries if you were an independent. So, and I think I said this in the first episode, but I think way, way in the beginning, I was a Democrat, and at some point, I switched to a Republican. But even as a Republican, you know, I've always

kind of looked at both, tried to look at both sides. And it's like, well, they're saying this, which is why I consider myself more independent. And I just haven't switched my party affiliation. And I've thought about it, especially in the last year or so. Would I rather switch to Democrat? Because same thing where I live now, if I'm an independent, I can't vote in the primaries. going to stay where I am because maybe I can have a voice in getting better Republican candidates into the mix. And I guess if I went as a Democrat, maybe I could vote. Well, you can't really vote out. But, you know, I just feel like that getting in, maybe I could get more moderate Republicans in. And so that's why I haven't changed my party affiliation. I don't think, since we started talking, I really don't think my values or anything has changed, and I really do think if I could register as an independent, I would. Um, because I am a little more, as we said, I am a little more socially, uh, liberal, but a fiscally conservative. And that's kind of where the rub is with, with, um, especially with Harris, there was some apprehension about Harris. And this was before she was the candidate. So I want to make that part clear. But, you know, as she became the candidate, I think, you know, obviously, the choice also is still now Trump and Harris. So,

you know, how would you say that, you know, your feelings around her candidacy may have changed since she took the nomination? Well, I would still have to say I think voting for Harris is not going to be so much voting for Harris as making sure Trump doesn't get in. It still really irritates me that she, a lot of questions she won't answer. She kind of dances around them, but she is polite. She is calm. You know, I think all that bodes well. She has brought some of her policies a little more middle of the road than less liberal. But some of the things, especially some of the economic things, like making sure that, like, large corporations aren't price gouging. And the thing she came out, the whole thing, like to elevate black men. I mean, I thought a lot of that was just, and now I'm not, obviously I'm not a black male, so I can't speak from that viewpoint, but I think it was rather insulting. in. And I think some of the things she's doing now, I'm not sure how much she's throwing out there just to kind of, you know, get as much support as she can. But I do like her better

than Trump. I think she's calmer. I just think it's going to bode better for the country as far as that goes but you know i don't know um you know she says she's gonna support israel and ukraine and all that and i hope she will but um you know and i've said this before i'm against um except maybe in in rare instances know, funding student loans and, you know, just giving people money. I just think, I really don't think that really helps things. And I just, I don't believe in all that government. There, in my eye, very few government programs that have come down the pike that have really been effective. Head Start's been effective. I think Obamacare has been pretty effective, but a lot of them really have not been that effective. So that's why, you know, a lot of times now when I see her on TV, it's like, she's not Trump, but then I'm still kind

of like, ooh, you know, it's kind of like, oh, oh, I'm really not sure I want to do this, but that's, you know. So maybe it feels a bit like holding your nose to get the thing. Exactly, exactly. Yes, yes. I want to ask you, because you mentioned to me before that, you know, you also listen to these episodes of The Undecideds. And so I wanted to mention a comment that Phil had made. He had said that before, as a conservative, he also was very much not in the camp of wanting to vote for Trump at all. Basically, he just doesn't like his character, doesn't think he's really fit for office. doesn't think he's really fit for office. But he did say something interesting,

which was that he had picked up on an interview, the CNN interview with Kamala Harris, that she said that her values haven't changed, which got him thinking. And I kind of wanted to probe you a little bit on that because I wanted to see where your thoughts were on something like that. The idea of your value is not changing, even if the party does. Well, first of all, I just think for her to say that was ridiculous,

because not that I don't care about her values, but I care about her policies. her values, but I care about her policies. And just because her values hasn't changed, that does not necessarily reflect what her policies are going to be. And since she tends to sidestep a lot of things, that's a little bit what worries me with her. But I think it is interesting, part of what Phil said, because I know what he made me think about, it's like part of the reason I'm not voting for Trump is because as a Catholic Christian, I kind of feel like if Jesus was sitting next to me and we're talking about, do you really want someone that cheats on his wife, that speaks not only about women, but everybody that he doesn't like in such a negative way, that cannot ever admit he's made a mistake, that lies and lies and lies and lies that talks about um he's going to go after uh his quote-unquote enemies once he's in the white house is this really the kind of person we want in there but then on the other hand you know some of the things when i look at harris like you know what we just talked about like some of the things she wants to do financially. It's just kind of like, no. So it just kind of

makes you think, or it's starting to make me think, huh, where do I want to go? Do I want to go with what my values are, which would say that I would want to vote for Harris, or what's better for the country. Now, I'm not really sure that Trump is better for the country. Well, I think if Trump wins by a landslide, maybe it'll be okay, but I still don't know if he's going to go, you know, go after all his enemies. But it really makes you think, you know, because we all think we want to do everything by our values. But it just really made me think, which, you know, which way do I want to go? We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis

Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first

cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. I think then we can switch gears to talk about the challenger in this election first, which is Donald Trump. So something that, and let me know if any of this is an unfair recasting of the things that you've said during our conversations, but something that you've said is that foreign policy is one of your top priorities as a voter, and that you could see yourself being drawn to Donald Trump if you've seen global instability increase during the remainder of Biden's term. I think it's more arguable than not that global instability has increased in the intervening months. And I'm wondering if you were to follow that priority as you laid it

out, if that would imply that you ought to vote for Trump. So let me know if any of that's unfair or if there's reasons for or against that that I'm missing here. Yeah, I think that is fair, but I'm not a single issue voter. If that was my top priority and that's all I cared about, not a single issue voter. If that was my top priority and that's all I cared about, then sure, by that means I should vote for him. But my other concerns are, you know, one of them is that I don't want to see people dying abroad in foreign wars. But another top concern is that I don't want people to start killing each other here. I'm not someone who thinks if Donald Trump gets elected, there's going to be a civil war. But I do think that he's both a symptom of the polarization problem that we have and he throws fuel on the fire.

And that's very concerning to me, especially sowing distrust in institutions like our voting system when I don't see evidence to sow that distrust. And so there are other big priorities there for me around keeping our country together so that we have a sense of trust in our democracy. And I think that is something that's very hard to reckon with for me if I were to vote for him and that's what ultimately why he's like way less than 10% I vote for him um it's highly unlikely because I just can't get past a lot of the rhetoric things he says even if he won't do all them when he says things about authoritarianism and and you know um things like that. It's like, how seriously do you take his rhetoric? I don't know.

But I know it certainly doesn't make things better in a way that I don't think will be productive for us as a country over the next four years. Okay, I understand that. I think this idea of not being a single issue voter, so not allowing one thing to lead you into making compromises you're not willing to make. I think the obvious counterpoint to me, though, idea of not being a single issue voter, so not allowing one thing to lead you into making compromises you're not willing to make. I think the obvious counterpoint to me, though, would be that we have some data about the way that the United States has been involved with foreign policy and the number of entanglements we've been able to get in and out of in Trump's presidency. And after Trump's presidency, we've seen instability increase in Europe with Russia

and Ukraine and in the Middle East with Israel and Gaza and Hezbollah and Iran and all of their proxies. So even though the president isn't directly causally related to everything, we have some data about what a Trump presidency might look like in that arena. But we also have some data about what a Trump presidency might look like in that arena. But we also have some data about what a Trump presidency might look like in terms of violence at home or the action on rhetoric that might lead to violence against political dissonance from the state, which is to say that we didn't really see that during the Trump administration his first time. So that would seem to indicate that probabilistically, maybe these concerns should be weighted differently. So that's the counterargument

that I see. And just curious how you'd respond to that. Yeah. I would say I mostly agree with that. I do think it is an open question. We can look at Trump's first term, but a lot of people say things like, oh, maybe the war in Israel wouldn't have happened if he'd been in office. I'm a little skeptical. Like, I don't know how much things would be different if he were in office versus a Biden-Harris administration or how much just global instability that's not necessarily tied to the president. um and then i would say okay let's assume that he's good on foreign policy and doesn't make good on any of the claims about political dissidents and other things that he said um i think that would be a fair point and i would also say that he's still sowing distrust in our electoral institution we did see that after his first term and that I think democracy is really run on being able to trust each other and trust institutions. And that's something that I think is still a concern, even if there's not physical violence, that democracy will no longer work if we don't trust

the scientific institution, if we don't trust our own elections and systems like that. their own elections and systems like that. Okay. Okay. That's cogent to me. So let's switch tracks to talking about the sort of incumbent candidate here, Vice President Kamala Harris, who is currently the vice president, so she wouldn't be running for re-election. But some things that you've put forward as concerns about you, or sorry, some statements that require us to discount them would indicate a level of unseriousness about the way that we're interpreting him as a candidate. And that Harris has shown that she's equivocated or changed her mind on positions, whereas Trump has done similarly with regards to abortion. And you could say that he's always been state rights, but we know that even before he was a candidate, he had different stances about abortion.

So the claims of political expediency may be able to be leveled against him as well. So the pushback that I would see in the way that you're thinking about Harris would be that a lot of the negatives that you have against her could be shared with candidate Trump, whereas the positives probably wouldn't be. So I just wanted to hear how you'd respond to that. Yeah, I think a few things. One, that's probably fair. And I would say that Trump's been running or has been president for like eight years. So there's not really many new observations I can make about him versus with Harris. I'm just kind of naming things as I'm seeing them. And I'm not necessarily always comparing those as better or worse than Trump

or like this is a deal breaker. I'm just kind of naming, oh, this rubs me the wrong way. I dislike this and noting it as we go. And it's not always a comparison game. So I think if we're like grading them on a test, I'm just like, oh, Trump may be more wrong on some of these things, but they're both wrong. They're both getting wrong marks. But I think it is worth taking into account that when I do compare them, Harris is generally probably doing better for some of these reasons. And so I'm, you know, having these criticisms in the context that I am more likely to vote for her. And I'm kind of holding her to higher expectations because like I want her to be better than Trump. I want her to earn my vote.

expectations because like I want her to be better than Trump I want her to earn my vote and so that's my kind of background is I'm thinking I would like her to be better than Trump and I'm noting the things that I don't like because I'm I'm someone who would rather like even though I wouldn't consider myself a supporter of her I'm someone who's very much critique your own people and your own party because that's how you get better from them. And so that's also a way that I'm thinking about this. And then the last point I'll make is that with Harris, we kind of just have to go on her rhetoric. And so if she's wishy-washy on policy or policy changes or doesn't seem serious then that's a big problem whereas with Trump it's still a very big problem but we also have evidence from his last term to go off of

and so when he says he doesn't have a plan I'm like god I really wish you did have a plan I wish you didn't like say it like that but also I've seen what you will do when you're in office again based on what you did last time in office whereas Whereas Harris, I mean, she's been in the office of vice president, but like I can't name an accomplishment of hers. And maybe that's a communication issue, not a reflection of what she's actually done. But I think that does matter that she's been in office and all I have to go on is her articulation of positions because I don't know what she's done when she's been in office. So that's something else to take into account. I want to go back for a second to California politics as an idea. Obviously, Vice President Harris was once Senator Harris from California. Considering your feelings about the leadership there, are you concerned at all that a future President Harris would enact similar policies?

I'm not, because I feel like I hate to use this phrase, but it's sort of, she sort of blows with the wind. Her policies seem to blow with the wind. By that, what I mean is, like, she seems to understand that she has to be a little center when it comes to her policies. And I think she has done that quite gracefully. And I don't think the kind of things that you could do in California, like I've said, if you have super majority of Democrats, everywhere you look, there's certain things you can get done. But then when you look around, you are representing the whole country,

then you have a different situation there. So I don't think she would be or her term as a president would reflect anything that she did in California, because it would be something that would be very difficult for her to get passed through Congress or even by her own party. Trump has kind of been Trump this entire time. I feel like, obviously, he just does and says what he's going to do and say uh pretty unapologetically has there been anything that has swayed you one way or another in terms of a you know a particular point throughout this campaign season um where it might have shifted you more towards a particular candidate um so there were uh so i looked into the so i'm like you know my background everything i i'm really into the

economics of things and you know the economy and the finance and all that stuff so i've looked into what trump has been um you know saying that he wants to do with the sales tax or tariffs or add tariffs and have sales tax that's like a federal sales tax something along those lines um and on the other hand uh Kamala Harris is basically saying like, it's sort of working what we have right now. Let's just try to improve it. That's pretty much it. There isn't anything new there. And I do believe that adding tariffs would increase prices because that's just how things work, no matter how you look at it. And I think it would be disastrous to add tariffs and it would just increase prices for everyone. And then you also have this deficit. The deficit went up a lot during Trump, and that

because of his tax cuts. And he keeps on suggesting that he will try to even do more in terms of tax cuts. And I think that, again, would increase the deficit. And deficit, as we all know, is really high. And I feel like the status quo that Kamala Harris might continue with might result in, like, you know, you're talking about 2% to 3% GDP growth, maybe 2% or less inflation. I think that is something that I can live with. That's just, you know, things stay the same. And I think with Trump, there will be a lot of uncertainty. And I think investors don't like uncertainty. So as far as the economy goes, I think that's, it might not be that great if we were to have four years of Trump, because just the anticipation,

it's possible that he might not be able to get anything done. He might not be able to do the tariffs or maybe not get as much tariffs as he wants, or he might not get a tax cut to Congress. So all these things, it's possible it might not happen. But just the anticipation and the fact that he keeps talking about it might lead the markets to react in a way that I just don't think would be beneficial for economy in general. Outside of economics, what are your feelings on each candidate in terms of foreign policy? Who do you think brings the most strength to the table? Foreign policy-wise, I believe, again, it will be mostly status quo with Kamala Harris. And I think she might be a little bit more active in terms of getting it

through, see if there could be something worked out. But on the other hand, I feel like Trump might be able to do a lot more. And that's where I do give him some points, because I do believe when he was the president, he did a few things to improve certain things that have been taken advantage of. The U.S. was taken advantage of when it comes to a lot of things, especially when it comes to monetary things. And I think he did a lot during that time that really helped the U.S. But at the same time, I also feel like he might not be able to navigate, especially the Middle East situation, the way someone more diplomatic would. So it's a question of, yes, do you want to see end to the hostilities in Middle East so both sides can just settle down and just figure it out using talks? Yes, I do believe Trump would be able to do that fairly quickly.

do believe Trump would be able to do that fairly quickly. If not, like, you know, maybe in first hundred days, maybe. Or maybe he might try to do that. But on the other hand, with Kamala Harris, I feel like things might just take a little longer, but they will, in the end, get resolved. But it might just take a little bit longer. Do you think there was a prominent Democratic politician that you might have seriously considered voting for this year that was, you know, apart from the current candidates? That's a good question. As I've, early on, I was looking for that and I was trying to think, you know rfk maybe somebody else um but then

as we've gotten late into the game the more i've been thinking about the party platforms and as i've been thinking about who occupies what and the um just the the broad stance that each one takes, I've started to see more of a relevance to party deciding, especially when you see that the Democratic Party typically leans pretty hard left on a lot of these major moral issues. And Republicans still left of me, but not quite as left as Democratic Party. So never really found that candidate never really looked much beyond that early initial curiosity. And especially now, as I've been thinking about it, I'm not sure. In terms of casting my vote, I used to think it's I'm trying to cast an effective vote positively towards something. But now I'm starting to see it as, OK, we've got a pretty ugly situation. We've got some pretty severe indications that things are not going well for us.

I'm thinking I might need to cast my vote more in a negative light as a vote against what I don't want to see. So rather than thinking Trump is the right guy because he's the right guy, I'm thinking more of Trump in order to fight against the potential for even more amoral laws, even more degeneration in the moral standing of our country and stuff like that. So yeah, going in the future, I'm not sure if there will ever be a Democratic Party candidate who would catch my attention unless you redefine Democratic Party and it takes on a whole new meaning. But given the terms and definitions of how things are as we speak presently, I don't think I could imagine any sort of a Democratic candidate coming out that I would want to have my vote count positively for.

Right. So you're kind of feeling the polarization of each party as they kind of move further apart and that the Republican Party just kind of firmly, you know, maybe the leader doesn't You know, maybe the leader doesn't embody everything that you want, but it embodies more than much more than what the Democratic Party embodies for you. we're all roasting in a fire together, I'd rather the fire be set at a temperature of a thousand degrees instead of 2000 degrees. To us, it's, you know, it's hot no matter what, but at least I'd want to try and petition for a thousand degrees because, hey, it's not two thousand degrees i don't want to be burning that hot you know so um either way it's just it's pretty pretty nasty but i'm still gonna try and you know at least use my vote to count against i'm happy to stand to um i'm happy to make what i'm against known because you know our today, not a lot of people want to be known for what they're against. They only want to be known what they're for. And I think that's great. But I think there's a time and a place to be known for what you're against. And rather than my vote counting for what I'm for, I'm thinking I want to use it to display what I'm against in this case. I think we're in that time. Brian, are you confident that the Republican Party will return to, you know, nominating leaders that

you, that embody more of those consistent Christian values that you kind of desire in a candidate um after you know trump is gone yeah not with a a movement of the spirit of god in the republican party as a whole just like how there needs to be a move of the spirit of god amongst the people in the nation that would make that possible and And in this climate, I just don't see that happening. And of course, that's me from a very limited, narrow field of vision. Obviously, I don't know what's going to happen 20, 30, 40 years from now. The Spirit of God will do what the Spirit of God wants to do. But that's the only way that any party is going to put anyone forth that reflects those ideals is when the party itself is changed. And the party itself is changed when the people that make up the party are changed. So it really gets down to that individual heart level. Man's heart is deceitfully wicked.

No one can understand it. And it's only the spirit of God that can take a heart of stone and take that out, put in a heart of flesh. And until that happens at a widespread level, there's always going to be, I see it as the candidates are always going to be not ideal. The candidates are always going to reflect the cultural climate we're in. If it's an amoral people, it's going to be an amoral government that prioritizes amoral policies. So that's the only way that I see that happening. And until that happens, no one's going to come forward that's going to meet the standard, I don't think. forward, that's going to meet the standard, I don't think. So, Phil, I want to pose a hypothetical to you. If Trump was the Republican nominee this year, is there any Democratic politician or

candidate you could think of that you would have voted for rather than voting for him or writing in a candidate? That's an interesting question. I'm not as, I mean, I can look back and prefer Obama to Trump. I'm not sure I can look around and say, oh, there's a candidate I think would come to the surface as a leader in the Democratic Party, and I would get behind them. surface as a leader in the Democratic Party, and I would get behind them. Biden, in some ways, is better than Harris. But it wasn't enough to cause me to vote for him. So probably not. It's more about the drift in kind of media, education, culture, in a decidedly progressive direction. And the Democratic Party tends to be more aligned with that than it has been in the past. And of course, you know, the whole anti-Semitism that's surfaced and the alignment of the Democratic Party, the unwillingness often to be clear and to take a stand, that just has kind of displayed for everyone a drift that I'm concerned

about and I'm not going to vote for. If I thought that the Democrats were going to win both the Senate, we're going to keep the Senate and win the House, I-up. But that'll create a checks and balance that I think resists, that keeps us more centered, which is what I would like us to be. Just as a quick aside, I'm curious if you've made a decision in who you'll support in the Pennsylvania Senate race. Yeah, I definitely am going to support McCormick. Okay. Yeah. Definitely am going to support McCormick. Okay. Yeah.

Although Casey, you know, he's a one of those unusual Democrats who oppose abortion in ways, you know, not necessarily extremely, but consistently. And I appreciate that. So switching gears one more time. The question I have, and this is, again, dating back to the first conversation that we had, something that was immediately apparent to me and something that, you know, I have a deeper respect for is how you talk about your values and you talk about how, you know, your beliefs and how they inform your decisions, both in politics and in your life. But I'm wondering, Phil, on just an internal level or setting that aside, how do you think about the fact that you might write in a candidate three presidential elections

in a row? Is there any hesitance to that, just in the sense of I'm not going to be voting for the winner three times in a row? Or is that just something that is never in question for you if neither candidate aligns with your values? No, I'm struggling with that. Because you don't completely throw your vote away in the sense that, you know, you keep it from going one direction. But Pennsylvania is going to be close. And if there are very many people like me who would prefer a Republican candidate to win but will not vote for Trump, Trump could end up losing and Kamala wins because of people like me. And I struggle with values. And I support a man who, in his personal character and leadership style, and what he models to the world, is completely contrary to everything I believe. So it's a tough decision, but I think I'm deciding I'm not going to allow myself to be forced

to support the Republican just because it's a binary decision and this is the candidate I've been given. It's a form of hoping to influence the future if he loses. That's a great segue to my next question, which is about the future. We talked last time about how you feel a lot of optimism when you think about J.D. Vance as a potential future standard bearer, a future leader in the party, and what he could represent. I'm wondering, though, are you at all worried if Trump wins about the lessons that the Republican Party are going to take from that and the way that the party leaders are going to model themselves going forward and whether they can get back to the roots of the party that you would like them to? Well, that's a deeply disturbing problem. And the truth is, it's already happening.

The Republican Party has been shaped over the last two terms by the influence of Trump. And that's the reason why I'm disaffected. I'm not where some of the Republicans are, where they say I'm a Republican for Kamala. That's too far for me. And he, I think he's the kind of candidate or the politician who can work across the aisle, which is the great missing dimension on both sides. We can't seem to do what politics is supposed to do. And that is face the issues, come at it from different directions, and come up with creative solutions together. And I would love, from a Republican perspective, to have a candidate that I believe could do that. And that's certainly not Trump's style. We haven't gotten to talk about the vice presidential debate. Pretty interesting. We haven't gotten to talk about the vice presidential debate. Pretty interesting say isn't going to change anything. I just don't want to watch this.

And then when I saw the coverage the next day and heard basically how civilized it was, how they even agreed on things, that afterwards, like, they introduced their families to each other. I thought, you know, darn, you should have watched this. But I didn't record it or anything so i guess i could have found it somewhere but um and quite frankly i don't think it matters because if i you know like walls if harris wins walls will be vice president if if harris is in there for eight years i don't think even after eight years, Walz is going to be competent enough to run for president. And Vance, well, of course, Trump will only be for four years because he can't have another term. And I can't see Vance winning because it's, it's another Trump, but anyway, but that's so anyway, I just figured, and not only that,

even if I'm totally wrong, we've got four years, four more years to figure out what's going on with those guys. So I wasn't going to bother myself with that at that moment. So, right. No, that totally makes sense.

I'm going to move on then. I had a couple of questions within that, but I think I'm going to move on to a different section. Do you know who you're going to vote for? Have you made up your mind? made me think he really made me think but he um he seems to be much more um everything that harris is for he is much more against all of that so you know like i i am um definitely for women's reproductive rights um he seems to be a little bit more conservative on that i am definitely for, you know, more rights for, you know, and taking care of the LGBTQ plus community and, you know, especially children that may be trans. And, you know, he doesn't seem to care for that. And I'm not faulting him for any of that. And I'm not faulting him for any of that. I mean, with his background, his feelings are very valid. But so that's kind of, from an economic standpoint, I think I would rather go with Trump because I think he was better with the economy and all that but the rest of it i don't know but part of what bothers me too as a retired person um you know what the stock market does and how the economy does that talks

about that you know changes how our investments work whether our investments continue to grow or they do not grow and and i'm not trying to, you know, nobody should feel sorry for me or anything, but you know, that's an issue for retired people. And I know my son said at one point, I guess during Trump's administration, well, look at my 401k and blah, blah, blah. We kind of, you know, poked the bear a little bit and said, yeah. And I said, look, she's president while all this is happening. Then he kind of like, well, that's the case. I'd rather give all this money to illegal immigrants. And I said, well, you're saying that now, but when you get to be my age, you may not be saying that. And I think that's why for a lot of people, the economy is everything,

whether you're in my position or whether you've got to look at the money you have and you've got to decide, are you going to give your type 1 diabetic child his medication or cut it in half? Are you going to feed your family? Are you going to, you know, get, you know, heat your home this winter? And so I can kind of see why for a lot of people, the economy is everything. And, um, yeah, you know, I, I do look at that a little bit because, you know, where we had that real long stretch where the market was just dropping and dropping and dropping and dropping, I was really getting anxious. And I'm thinking, is this money going to last me into my nineties?

Are we going to have to have our kids take care of us? Which is the last thing anybody really wants. So, you know, right now, if I had to vote today, well, I already voted. So, I did. I voted for Harris. I'll just come out and say that. So, I can't change it now anyway. But, you know, whether I'm sorry I did or not, I guess we'll see. But I did vote for Harris. Okay. All right. So we've got the vote in and you vote for Harris. Okay.

I have, have you told your family who you voted for? Yeah. Yeah, we all pretty much know who everybody is voting for. My husband is voting for Harris. My one son is voting for Harris. The other one, I know he is very, very conservative, but he doesn't really talk about it much. And his standard line is, which I think is a great line, and I even wrote it down because I want to use this line, is, are both very smart people and I understand why you care about the things that you care about. And I thought that's such a great line. You're kind of, you know, being positive,

you're giving somebody a compliment, you're not saying you're wrong, you're not even saying I disagree with you, you're just so... Very validating. It is, and that's kind of where he is. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Based on Charles Yu's award winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu,

a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Just to try to take one of the examples there that you brought up, because I think that can be useful, Medicare or Obamacare or anything medical related from legislation. So you're mentioning Trump saying he doesn't really have a plan, or he said he, quote, has the concepts of a plan about repealing and replacing Obamacare, which has been a Republican position for close to a decade now, if not more so. And at the same time, we do have some information about Harris in her policy because she did serve as a U.S. senator. And that data that we have about her does indicate wishy-washiness, for sure. She supported Medicare for All, and then she didn't, and then she supported a version of it,

which was kind of different. That was confusing to follow and remains confusing to follow. But it does show the sort of linear or not linear, but a directionality of support about a position. It seems like you could say, I think I see the same directionality of position about Trump, and I can have criticisms about the way they're enacting their choices. But maybe that's enough to be able to make a determination on the merits, even if you can't say specifically that you have two plans to compare that are fully fleshed out. You can say, okay, one of these candidates seems to be more pro-government insurance, and one seems to be more pro-government insurance, and one seems to be more private insurance. And I'm wondering if you can make a determination that way,

maybe not just about Medicare or medical coverage in general, but about other issues and see a directional kind of comparison, see how that feels. Yeah, I think that's fair enough. And that's kind of what I have to do is to take into account their general views on an issue as best I can based on comments they've made in the past, their past record, as well as things they're saying today. I mean, to make a decision as a voter, you basically have to be like, what generally do they think about this from what I can gather? And there's a lot of people doing good summaries of their positions. And there's a lot of people doing good summaries of their positions. So that is a good thing. I think I'm more like talking about their communication styles because I think it's important that they have good communication, especially when we're in wars abroad and doing these things.

You need to be able to communicate to the American people why you did something. But I think when it comes to every single other issue, I mean, you're right, you just kind of have to look at the direction. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's part of why her marks on my little tests of them both are slightly better. But it's just like one concern to me. I understand. And that And the general trend that I'm hearing is you're making a lot of observations. You're trying not to discount anything, but you're trying to observe everything fairly and then process and come to some sort of logical conclusion when you balance them at the end, more or less, right? Yeah. And that sort of provides a natural segue to my last question, which is, you've had a lot of time to make some observations. You've taken a lot of steps to try to remain rigorous with the way that you make your observations. So now it's getting close to conclusion time.

how would you weight your feeling right now for how you think you would vote when it comes to the final election on the 5th? I think you told us a little bit, but maybe you can plant some firm numbers such as they are and tell us where you're leaning. Yeah, I guess I would say I'm leaning slightly towards Harris, like maybe a 60% chance I vote for Harris. Reluctantly, it's not something I'm excited to do, but it's kind of something where I'm like, I just don't think I can stomach what Trump's going to say after the election results and all that. And there's still definitely a significant chance

that I might vote third party if I just feel like she's going to make my life worse in some way. Either I see some sort of evidence that none of her policies are remotely going to be positive for the country or something like that. But that's kind of where I'm at right now. Okay. Well, Claire, I can't thank you enough for the time that you've been willing to share with us and all of our listeners as we try to process news during the election cycle. Thank you so much for your time. Wish you the best of luck with all sides and peace with the decision that you make in November,

however it goes, and strength and sanity for you and yours as we go into November and after. So again, thank you so much. Yeah. Wishing you strength and sanity too you and yours as we go into November and after. So again, thank you so much. Yeah. Wishing you strength and sanity too. Appreciate it. How do you think you'll feel if Kamala Harris wins? I mean, so, okay. So maybe what I wanted to tell this, say this or later on, but I already mailed in my ballot. So I already have voted and I have voted for her. So I'll feel really good about it. Yeah. Okay, great. I guess then the opposite question, how will you feel if Donald Trump wins? Well, if Donald Trump wins,

one thing I'm looking forward to is that he's talked a lot about cutting down spending, like making things more efficient. This is where, you know, the Elon Musk cult comes into play, right? He's talked a lot about like having Elon Musk take a look at a lot of these government agencies, maybe, or government in general, and see how we can improve things, efficiency, increase efficiency, improve things. Then I would definitely look forward to that. Like, okay, you said something that you really wanted to do. Please show me. And I would expect that to happen fairly soon

because he only has four years. Let's just say he has four years. And so he would want to do it as soon as he gets into the office. And I think that's where I would be looking forward to. If that, yeah, that's the only thing I'm looking forward to. I mean, the sky is not going to fall. I mean, I don't think it's the end of the world. I just don't believe in like democracy will end or something just because he's the president. It's one of those things that I would look forward to. Other than that, I would just hope that he gets a lot of pushback with tariffs because that's just not going to be great. And that's pretty much it. I gotta say, you have a very healthy, dare I say it, Tangle-esque kind of perspective when it comes to all of this. And it's refreshing, and it's also, I'm seeing in other people, especially I think people who are a little bit more undecided, that kind of perspective that like, you know, win or lose, we'll have a president, but democracy will stand.

I think what I want to ask you is, do you have anything that you would say to people who might be feeling that democracy is at stake and, you know, the rhetoric is dialed up so high? The rhetoric is dialed up so high. What would you say to other undec if you don't feel comfortable voting uh for either candidate like you vote the way you would vote uh it's without regards to anything else because there will always be claims about like oh because of you know this person got this many votes in this county and for that reason you know the person lost the other person lost or something like that but i think it's important to vote it's at least uh i feel like people who if you want to complain in the future about something that's happening then you better uh vote because you i just don't think you have the right to complain or even criticize uh if you're not voting because you are part of the problem

and uh i think that's what i would say i I would say you just have to make up your mind based on, okay, this is what this person is suggesting, this is what this person is suggesting, outside of all the rhetoric, outside of, you know, all the talking points. Okay, who is this person? Who is this person? That's what it comes down to for me. I want to thank you for taking the time to go on this journey with us and explain and share like your feelings and sentiments around everything um election day is November 5th and uh I think we will check in with you just after the election and you know see how everything's going but until then uh you have our deepest, deepest thanks.

Sure. Thank you. Thank you for having me be part of this because this was something very new for me also. So it was great learning about certain things that I wanted to be aware of. And it was also quite a bit of, like I mentioned, towards the end, I was a little overwhelmed and decided to not follow news as much because I felt that it was a little too much, the things that were happening. But it's been great. Thank you. How do you think you'll feel if Harris wins the election?

if Harris wins the election? That's a good question. It would be disappointing. I would feel disappointed. I don't think that would change my everyday life all that much, at least from just a day-to-day standpoint of like, okay, how do I go on with my life? I don't think it's one of those things where the world's going to crumble underneath my feet.

I think there's still plenty of work to be done and plenty of areas to be effective in the long-term vision of seeing a world changed and i just see it as well the thermostat says we're here and uh we got to get to work we're you know changing the actual thermostat to see that number drop to see it get a little bit cooler in here, wherever we may be. So in a Harris win, I'd just be like, well, I mean, not surprising. It's where we're at. I'm not one who's going to now say it's close. You know, I'm not one. There were a lot of people, you know, election fraud and stuff like that, kind of really hammering the conspiracy theories. I'm not one of those people where automatic Harris win means an automatic election

interference case, you know, there's a lot at play there. But I certainly that's not certainly not my go to, you know, so I would still I would be a I'd like to think that I would be a good loser in that sense, you know. So that's kind of where I see myself. Disappointed, but not taking it like a sore loser. Right on. And how will you feel if Trump wins? I would be, of all things, i'd be a little bit nervous because well that's a bold personality in office so who knows what's going to happen next

and there's been a lot of boldness surrounding trump that uh have caused many to question how long he has left on this earth. And there are some in my camp who believe that if he does get elected, that he just won't make it to late January. There are those who are truly honest to God, believe that, and are convicted of that. And I thought that's very interesting, and it seems plausible. So I would definitely be nervous and I would be like, I'd be watching pretty closely and trying to see, okay, like, where is this going to go for the next two months? And are we going to make it to the day when he

gets sworn in? So, uh, not quite settled. Like some would think like, you know, yes, uh not quite settled like some would think like you know yes my candidate got in i'd be kind of more like oh boy we got in now what's gonna happen i'm a little nervous now should we hide him away for a couple of months that is a really really surprising reaction i think that's probably i can't say but probably one of the more unique answers we've probably gotten. Yeah, that's interesting. I only believe the power of God can save this country, as I've stated many times. And Trump still represents a cultural climate that is still very much ungodly. And it's still a nation under judgment. So, yeah, I mean, he's not quite as hot as it were as the Democratic Party, Kamala Harris and Tim Walz. Um, but that, yeah, so that's kind of where I'm, I'm, my head's at in terms of that. Maybe he would be safe

underground and in undisclosed location until, you know, he gets sworn in and maybe live out of that for the next four years. So who do you think you're going to vote for? I think I'm finally ready to say that. I think I'm casting my vote for Trump this time around. You're no longer undecided. Is there a sense of relief around making the decision or? No, unfortunately not. There is more of a sense of a little bit of defeat, a little bit of sadness, a little bit of, I really wish things were different. And it's, you know, this is just where we're at. And so, like I said, I'm trying to use my vote and use it as a cast against what I'm standing against right now. And I'm hoping that that vote will be effective and at least playing my part to

try and, you know, be a part of what we have going on here. Uh, I'm a single voice out there saying, you know what, no matter what happens, we all need to get on our knees and repent and so be it. And, you know, because I know a lot of people on my side who want Trump in, they're thinking, you know, Trump's the guy, he's the one, he's going to make it, we're going to turn this around, make America great again. And I don't see that happening. Even though that's who I'm voting for, I don't think he's capable. I don't think he's going to do it. And so that's kind of why I'm decided, but with very little resolution in my spirit about it, I still wish things were very different from what they are.

Well, thank you, Brian. Thank you for the insight and the feedback, and we'll see what happens come Tuesday. We will see, and it'll be an interesting ride even from here on out. That's for sure. So, Phil, if you'll indulge me in one more hypothetical. This is something I think we're all thinking about. And that is a day or two after the election.

If Trump is the winner, how do you think you're going to feel? That's interesting. I probably won't be outraged or depressed. I will be concerned and wary. And I will pray and hope that those that surround him can keep him in check in some meaningful way. And that the best side of Trump, whatever that is, will be that which shapes his decision making. I am hoping that the country won't erupt, but I fear that there's such a Trump animosity that's personal, that's not oppositional, that I could imagine the streets erupting in violent activity. I can imagine that more if Trump wins than if Kamala

wins. Oddly enough, supposedly the right wing is supposed to be the source of violence, but I'm not at all clear that that's the case or that's the way it will play out. Is that sense informed by the summer of 2020, just out of curiosity, or where do you get that impression? Okay. Yes, it's the summer of 2020. And, you know, it had its unique features. It was during COVID, there were other factors. But we're as polarized, if not more so, than we have ever, more so than we have ever, ever been. And there's been such a rhetoric. The focus of this has been the criticism of Trump as a person. And therefore, if he wins, the focus is on getting rid of the person and how horrible the person is. And that's kind of a dangerous concoction. He may not make it through the presidency. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he's assassinated. Well, the flip side of that question is, how do you think you'll feel if Harris wins? and the Republicans regain the Senate, then I will probably be cautiously hopeful that she will be kept, she'll be her better self and be more centrist and more of a negotiator across the aisle, and she will resist the progressive influences of the

Democratic Party. And I think that's possible. I'm not going to pretend that I think if she campaigns that way, that's the way she's going to actually be. We'll see. I think it's only going to be that way if we have checks and balances. I'm most concerned about how she'll appoint who's going to be in the positions of bureaucratic power that have a larger impact on the shape of the culture than I think most of us realize, from judges to cabinet members to who runs the government on a day-in and day-out basis. That's the power of the presidency. And I doubt, I think she will appoint at least as liberal and probably more progressive than Biden. So my final question is one we've talked about before, but I think it

takes on obvious weight now, as this is probably the last time we'll talk before the election. And that is, have you decided what you're going to do with your vote this year? Voting red and voting for no one. And today, after a lengthy conversation with my wife, who just is repulsed by the idea of voting for Trump, whatever the reason, I'm leaning a little toward not casting my vote. But I'm about as undecided today as I was when we began our conversation, which surprises me a bit, but maybe it shouldn't. Why do you think it surprises you? I don't like to be so undecided. I am a fairly decisive person, and I do think you've raised the question. It matters. This is important.

There are consequences, and I'm not putting my full vote into the situation, and I care deeply about voting. So, I'm really quite frustrated to be between this rock and a hard place. But I haven't found enough reasons to go one way or the other with a certain sense of decisiveness. Thank you, Phil. I think that is, albeit a potentially unsatisfactory place to leave it, I think that sums up a lot of what we've discussed over the past 10 or 11 months well. And at a certain point, we just have to find out what's going to happen, right? Right. And go from there. That's right.

So thanks for the conversation again. And we'll look forward to talking with you when we do know the results or at least some of the results. And I want to say thank you. I've enjoyed our conversation. Your graciousness toward me. And I've enjoyed listening to the other contributors. It's been an enlightening and clarifying process. All right. I've got a couple more questions. They're really one question, but two sides of the coin, which is, how do you think you'll feel if Harris wins? I've thought about that, and I really don't know. I don't think I'm going to

feel like yippee, whoopee, but I still think I'm going to feel relief. Well, let me put it this way. If she wins by a landslide, I'm going to feel relief. If she doesn't, I think it's going to be a lot of anxiety because I am worried about what Trump will do. And I am worried, you know, because he keeps saying as long as the election is fair, but in my mind to him, a fair election, an only election that's fair is an election that he wins. And that worries me. I hope that I'm sure Biden is ready for another January 6th. And I think everybody will be a lot quicker to, you know, accept help from the National Guard and the military or whatever they have to. And hopefully the Capitol will be well secured on January 6 or or whatever but but i am worried um i i am a little bit worried so if she wins by a landslide i'll be relieved because at least it's all over and now we can go on living our lives and quite frankly i don't mean to minimize this, but really, for the most part, what goes on day to day in the White House really doesn't have a whole lot of effect on us, for the most part. Now, if you're a woman and you need an abortion, that's a whole different thing.

But for the most part, I think it's more local politics that has a day-to-day effect so um so i guess short answer is if she wins by a land side i'll be like phew that's done but i'm not going to be like way you know yippee my candidate won oh happy days are here again it's not going to be that right that's fair that's. That's fair. And how about if Trump wins? Yeah, I knew this was coming, so I was trying not to. If Trump wins, quite frankly, I think I'm going to be worried. I am worried about when he gets in the White House, is he going to pay attention to what he's supposed to be doing? Or is it going to be, now I'm going to go after Joe Biden, now I'm going to go after this person, now I'm going to go after, and that is going to be his main focus, getting revenge on these people.

And that does worry me. And it does worry me, too, that like Putin and, you know, North Korea and Iran, you know, would really like to see Trump as president. That worries me. That worries me because I don't think they're scared. I think they would be more afraid of Harris. But they all did tend to behave pretty well when Trump was in office, so it's hard to say. But again, if he wins by a landslide, it'll be okay. If he wins by a little bit, then I think there's going to be a. I mean, there might be. I mean, you know, there were two assassination attempts on Trump. But that's mainly what worries me on either side. If it's not a clear victory in some, the violence, it's going to happen afterwards.

Yeah, that makes sense. So really, I'm not going to be jumping up and down about either one of them. And probably a little more afraid if Trump wins. Last question for you. Is there anything you would want to say if you had a friend or even a perfect stranger who was undecided? Is there anything you'd want to say to them, any advice you'd want to give them, or something you'd want to tell them as, you know, something you'd want to tell them as, you know, you've kind of gone through your own experience? I would tell them, first of all, don't let other people talk you into something, but make sure that you're basing your decision on facts. Try to get your news from a couple of different sources. I mean, you know, I think we all rely on mainstream media to a certain degree, but, you know, try and find something, you know, fairly nonpartisan, whether it's like Politico or, you know, or something, try to, you know, just make sure you've got your facts straight and don't, don't rely. Like if, if you're very conservative,

don't rely on all very conservative news. And by the same stream, if you're very progressive, don't rely on everything that's just progressive and be open to what other people have to say. You don't have to agree with it, but sometimes people can say something that you'll be like, well,

gee, I never thought of that. And it's not going to happen very often, but it, but it may happen say something that you'll be like well gee i never thought of that and it's not going to happen very often but it but it may happen but that's but and i would say you know but ultimately you have to vote your conscience conscience and and you have to vote so but just try and make sure it's informed don't just you know close your eyes and point i think that's uh that's wise for sure d, I just want to say thank you so, so much for allowing us to talk with you and get your thoughts and follow you on this journey. It's been a genuine honor for me. I really have enjoyed following along with everything you have

to say, and I think you've brought a lot to our listeners. I get that feedback all the time. So on behalf of the listeners and myself, I just want to say thanks for allowing us into your life. Well, John, thank you for allowing me to do this. And I feel the same way about you. I feel it's been an honor to work with you. I think you're just a wonderful human being. I don't care where you are politically. I just think you're just a wonderful human being. I don't care where you are politically. I just think you're a wonderful human being. So thank you. Thank you. The feeling's very mutual. That is it for episode eight.

I want to end by thanking Zahid, Claire, Brian, Diana, and Phil for allowing us to follow their journey, sharing their thoughts and questions, their criticisms and concerns, and the hope they all share for a more united country. It takes a certain kind of bravery and vulnerability criticisms, and concerns, and the hope they all share for a more united country. It takes a certain kind of bravery and vulnerability to talk about who you're voting for and share your political views with an audience as large as ours, and I appreciate them doing that with us this year. The election is Tuesday, November 5th.

Early voting has begun in many states by the time you are listening to this. You can get more information on your state's voting guidelines, including registration deadlines, in a link in our episode description today. As you probably know by now, I do not care who you vote for, but I do care that you vote. And I hope deeply that more and more people participate in our democratic process going forward. So if you aren't planning to vote, consider this my final plea for you to join the fray. Please go vote. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media production. This episode was written by Isaac Saul

and edited and engineered by John Long. Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokova, Will Kabick, John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Long. For more content from Tangle Media,

please go to our website at retangle.com. Thank you.