Tangle - The DOJ investigates Jerome Powell.

Episode Date: January 13, 2026

On Sunday, The New York Times reported that the U.S. attorney’s office in the District of Columbia has launched a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell. The investigation reportedly focuses on Powell’s June 2025 congressional testimony about the central bank’s renovation of its Washington headquarters. Shortly after the first reports surfaced, Powell confirmed that he had received grand jury subpoenas from the Justice Department threatening a criminal indictment. The chairman called the investigation “unprecedented” and said the administration is threatening legal action to pressure the Fed to lower interest rates.Ad-free podcasts are here!To listen to this podcast ad-free, and to enjoy our subscriber only premium content, go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Take the survey: What do you think of the DOJ subpoenaing Powell? Let us know.Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was written by: Isaac Saul and audio edited and mixed by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Lindsey Knuth, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the investigation into Jerome Powell. I've got really strong feelings about this one, I've got to tell you. We're also answering a question about the latest video in the shooting of Renee Good and if it changed my take from last week. Before we jump in, though, a quick heads up that today we released our fourth ever edition of Press Pass, our once a month behind the scenes look at Tangle and how we're building this business and how we're trying to win back trust in the media. You can find that, I'm going to say two things

depending on when you release this. You can find that episode in our podcast feed already. It was published this morning, so you can go check it out and listen to it there. It's also up on our website. With that, I'm going to send it over to John for today's main story, and I'll be back for my take. Thanks, Isaac, and welcome, everybody.

Here are your quick hits for today. First up, the Supreme Court is hearing oral arguments and challenges to Idaho and West Virginia laws that ban transgender athletes from participating in sports that align with their judgment. gender identity. Number two, the consumer price index rose 2.7% in December from the year prior, the same rate as in November and in line with economists estimates. Prices rose 0.3% month over month, also in line with expectations. Number three, Senator Mark Kelly, the Democrat from Arizona,

filed a lawsuit to stop Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth from censuring him and demoting his Navy rank over Kelly's appearance in a video advising U.S. service members, they can disobey unlawful orders. Number four, the FBI arrested a suspect in a fire that caused significant damage to a prominent synagogue in Jackson, Mississippi on Saturday. The agency alleged that the suspect admitted to starting the fire and said he did so because of the building's Jewish ties. And number five, the Justice Department charged a Venezuelan National alleged to be associated with the Tren de Adagwa gang with assaulting federal officers. The man was shot by a border patrol agent in Portland, Oregon last week, after officers said he rammed a vacant border patrol.

vehicle with his car. Separately, officials in Minnesota and Illinois sued the Trump administration over its deployment of immigration and customs enforcement agents to Minneapolis and Chicago. Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell says the Department of Justice served the Fed with a grand jury subpoena related to his testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June. The New York Times is reporting that a criminal investigation has been opened into the chairman over those renovations at the Fed headquarters. Now, in a statement, Powell says, quote, this unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve

buildings. On Sunday, the New York Times reported that the U.S. Attorney's Office in the District of Columbia has launched a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell. The investigation reportedly focuses on Powell's June 2025 congressional testimony about the central bank's renovation of its Washington headquarters. Shortly after the first report surfaced, Powell confirmed that he had received grand jury subpoenas from the Justice Department threatening a criminal indictment. The chairman called the investigation unprecedented and said that the administration is threatening legal action to pressure the Fed to lower interest rates. For context, President Trump's calls for the Federal Reserve Board of Governors to lower interest rates dates back to his 2024. presidential campaign. Since taking office, he has publicly criticized and threatened to fire Powell for lowering rates too slowly, the central bank cut rates three times both in 2024 and 2025. The Fed chair has also

come under scrutiny for testimony in June about the headquarters renovation, and some lawmakers have accused him of deceiving Congress about the cost of the project. Separately, in August, Trump attempted to fire Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook for alleged mortgage fraud, which some critics viewed as an effort to replace her with a more amenable governor. Cook has challenged the dismissal and her cases currently before the Supreme Court. In his statement on Sunday, Powell called the Justice Department's allegations pretexts, adding, this is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions,

or whether monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation. A spokesperson for Attorney General Pam Bondi did not comment directly on the probe, but said Bondi had instructed her U.S. attorneys to prioritize investigative any abuses of taxpayer dollars. Separately, President Trump said, I don't know anything about the investigation into Powell, but he's certainly not very good at the Fed, and he's not very good at building buildings.

The news of the investigation drew criticism of the Trump administration from Democrats and some Republican lawmakers. Senator Tom Tillis, the Republican from North Carolina, a member of the Senate Banking Committee, suggested advisors within the Trump administration are actively pushing to end the independence of the Federal Reserve and said he will oppose the confirmation of any nominee

for the Federal Reserve until Powell's case is resolved. Separately, House Speaker Mike Johnson said he would reserve judgment during the investigation. There's concerns about cost overruns, and whatever the allegations are, I don't know, Johnson said. Powell's term as chairman ends in May, though his term as Fed Governor runs until 28. President Trump said recently that he plans to announce his pick to replace Powell soon, and National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett is considered a frontrunner for the nomination. On Monday, Hassett said he would support the Justice Department's investigation if he were running the central bank. Today, we'll share arguments from the left and the right about the investigation into Powell and the Federal Reserve, and then Isaac's take.

We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, first let's start with what the left is saying. The left sharply criticizes the investigation and applauds Powell for resisting Trump's intimidation tactics. Some say the investigation will backfire on Trump. Others suggest the controversy will test Republican lawmakers' loyalty. In Bloomberg, Jonathan Levin said, needs to stay at the Fed now more than ever. These are officially the darkest days for Federal Reserve Independence since at least the Nixon administration. After attacking Fed Governor Lisa Cook last year, President Donald Trump is now weaponizing the Justice Department against Chairman Powell in a thinly veiled effort to intimidate him into lowering interest rates against the best interests of the American people.

It's the sort of treatment you'd expect in a tin-pot-binanah republic, and it will be a stain on America's reputation for years to come, Levin wrote. The attack is a sign of why America needs principled leaders at its central bank, and why Powell himself should opt to stay on as a governor after his chairmanship ends in May. For Congress, Trump's attacks are a reminder of why lawmakers must demand absolute independence from any future chair. That could create additional doubts about candidate Kevin Hassett, Trump's National Economic Council Director, Levin said. In a demonstration of how foolish and self-destructive the Justice Department maneuver is, the Fed News initially prompted the S&P 500 Index to retreat and yields on the

10-year treasury note to rise. While the Fed sets short-term policy rates, mortgage rates, and other long-term borrowing costs are set by the market, ill-advised rate cuts could actually lead to greater interest expenses for consumers. In the American prospect, Robert Cutner suggested Trump's attack on Powell backfires. Powell, ordinarily circumspect and technocratic, is fighting back. He has taken the step of hiring the Blue Chip law firm Williams and Connolly as outside counsel. The Supreme Court blocked Trump's earlier effort to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook on bogus charges. It is hard to imagine any court convicting Powell, Cutner wrote. The attack on Powell and the Fed's independence was quickly denounced by people from both parties,

former Federal Reserve chairs Janet Yellen, Ben Bernackie, and Alan Greenspan, the latter to Republicans, as well as four former Treasury secretaries representing both parties issued a statement supporting Powell. Republicans in Congress who have been reluctant to criticize Trump on other issues joined in. Trump's move could also slow down his effort to appoint a successor to Powell, whose term expires in May. Senator Tom Tillis, the Republican from North Carolina, said he would block any Fed nominee for either chair or another post until the investigation is resolved, Cunner said. If anything, Trump's clumsy efforts will reinforce the Fed's independence. It is rare for a Trump vengeance gambit to backfire so quickly and so totally, a sign of both Trump's impaired judgment

and growing isolation. In the Atlantic, Jonathan Chait wrote that the investigation into Powell will test Republican loyalty to the president. When a respected public servant is being accused of wasting taxpayer dollars and lying to Congress by a president whose extravagant White House renovation has already doubled in cost in just three months and whose inexhaustible capacity for lies has essentially broken every fact-checking medium, one almost wonders if the criminal allegation was chosen for its absurdity

to demonstrate that Donald Trump can make the law mean whatever he wanted to, Chate said. Even if Trump were to manage to install sufficient pliant figureheads at the agency. The Fed's demonstrable lack of independence would be apt to weaken its influence over monetary policy and make the economy worse, not better. Every affluent Republican, from the tech right to fossil fuel owners to heirs managing their inherited portfolios, has a direct and visible interest in stable and competent monetary policy. The Republican Party's respect for the Fed's independence is already evident in a recent Supreme Court ruling in which the conservative

majority appears to be seeking to create a special exemption for the Federal Reserve from the court's general doctrine that presidents are entitled to fire the heads of independent agencies, Chey Root. Trump is defecating where his wealthy donors eat. Perhaps they will go along with this, too, but he is testing the limits of their acquiescence. All right, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is mixed on the case, but some advocate for withholding judgment until the investigation is complete. Others view the investigation as overtly political and call on Congress to restrain Trump. Others suggest Trump is sending a message to the next Fed chair. In the Washington examiner, Guy Benson wrote, let's wait and see the evidence

against Jerome Powell. I've lived through enough President Donald Trump-related freakouts over the years to have learned an important lesson. It's usually wise to wait for the facts before rushing out definitive declarations, Benson said. For example, when an indictment came down against John Bolton, a former Trump official turned Trump critic, accusations of retaliatory government thuggery came reining down. But it turned out that the investigation into Bolton was initiated during the Biden administration

and that the government's evidence appears to be strong. The initial conclusion that Trump was ticking down an enemy's list in an effort to imprison his foes didn't quite match the facts of the case. The Justice Department had better bring powerful and irrefutable evidence of clear-cut lawbreaking. If such evidence is offered, the usual coercive critics will once again look like

they've pounced prematurely, having never learned the lesson mentioned above. If, however, the case looks thin, the decision to move forward with an investigation will smack of politically motivated targeting, Benson wrote. Conservatives who rightly fulminated against any number of lawfare or weaponization excesses deployed against Trump and his allies should not make a heel turn into supporting or excusing naked reprisals along the same lines that happened to flow in the opposite direction. In National Review, Andrew C. McCarthy offered practical responses to the investment. investigation. The politicized palo probe is not a one-off. The Justice Department has a now

extensive pattern of pursuing Trump's political enemies and officials he seeks to scapegoat. The suggestion that these lawfare gambits are the idea of Pam Bondi or Janine Piro, with no direction from Trump, would insult the intelligence even if we did not have Trump's diatribe against Bondi for foot-dragging on charges against James Comey, Letitia James, and Adam Schiff, McCarthy said. The Senate should stop further consideration of Trump's nominees. Republicans should be doing this anyway to vindicate Congress's constitutional prerogatives. Congress should amend the obstruction and false statement statutes in the penal law to require a referral from Congress before the Justice Department may investigate or charge someone

for providing false statements to or otherwise obstructing a congressional investigation, McCarthy said. I imagine that if a vote were taken, Congress would overwhelmingly reject a Justice Department inquiry into Powell for allegedly misleading Congress regarding the renovations of the Fed's office buildings, something Congress itself has. not accused Powell of doing. In the Wall Street Journal, Greg Ipp suggested the investigation is also a warning to the next Fed chair. The criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell isn't ultimately about the Fed's headquarters or Powell or even interest rates. It's about power, it wrote. In that sense, the investigation is also a message to whoever

succeeds Powell, likely either Trump advisor Kevin Hassett or former Fed Governor Kevin Warsh. Both claim they will be independent, but if either sets interest rates contrary to Trump's desires, they can expect the same treatment as Powell. That's a powerful incentive to stay in line. That Trump officials are going after Powell without awaiting the Supreme Court's decision on Cook's removal reflects their determination to break the Fed's independence. They might succeed even if they fail in court, Ip said. The message to all Fed officials is that defying Trump is an invitation to have their backgrounds and public statements investigated for a pretext for removal. Given that, who would wish to serve? Presumably, only someone ready to deliver what Trump wants.

All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take. All right, that is it for with the left and the writer saying, which brings us to my take. So I thought for a little while about how to address this latest development, how to meet the magnitude of the moment. And I've decided to start my take today with something a little controversial, but I hope also pretty direct. I'd like to share the full statement from Fed Chair Jerome Powell. This is what he said. On Friday, the Department of Justice served the Federal Reserve with grand jury subpoenas, threatening a criminal indictment related to my testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June. That testimony concerned, in part, a multi-year project to renovate historic Federal Reserve office buildings. I have deep respect for the rule of

law and for accountability in our democracy. No one, certainly not the chair of the Federal Reserve, the law. But this unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It is not about Congress's oversight role. The Fed, through testimony and other public disclosures, made every effort to keep Congress informed about the renovation project. Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public rather than following the preferences of the president. This is about whether the Fed will be able to

continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation. I have served at the Federal Reserve under four administrations, Republicans and Democrats alike. In every case, I've carried out my duties without political fear or favor focused solely on our mandate of price stability and maximum employment. Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people." This is a rare statement from a government official because every word of it is true. That was my first thought after I watched Powell address the country on video.

everything here is accurate. It's boringly accurate. It's so obvious it's almost uninteresting. The administration is threatening and politically pressuring the Fed. The investigation is not about Congress's oversight. It's not about the renovation of a building. It's not about whether Powell committed some kind of crime. It's about the administration not getting the interest rates they want

and using a criminal probe to pressure Powell into doing their bidding. I have plenty of criticisms of Powell, and on a normal day, I might list them all out. here to demonstrate my independence, moderation, and nonpartisan bona fides. But that would be an empty and performative exercise, because none of them are even remotely relevant to the question at hand. As political commentator, Jay Nordlinger put it, Powell is like a ghost from our pre-2016 past, a sober, responsible, patriotic public official. Whatever you think of his decisions as Fed Chair, his share of responsibility for inflation,

how he timed his decisions during the pandemic, or even, his renovation project's budget, he is a professional. He does his job like a professional. He has stoically borne every conceivable form of pressure from Trump, who has broken every presidential norm and pulled every lever he could to pressure him into doing something he didn't think the economic data supported. Finally, Trump's legal threat broke his placid neutrality and forced an actual statement. And how couldn't it? Powell's record is squeaky clean. The closest thing he's had to a controversy was when two Fed presidents were accused of trading real estate securities on his watch back in 2021, which Powell responded to by opening a multi-year

inspector general investigation. Outside of that, there hasn't been so much as a rumor of misconduct, let alone an accusation of criminality. The consequences here are grave. Monetary policy is more science than art, and the markets and global investors trust our monetary policy to be focused exclusively on the math. Politics will always marginally affect the way any group of people reviews any topic, including the Fed board's analysis of economic data. But Trump is injecting politics into the Fed in a way that we've never seen. And you can bet the House that he's preparing to replace Powell

with another yes man who will simply do what the White House is bidding is, which means more interest rate cuts no matter what. Some Republicans are clearly shaken up by all this. Senator John Kennedy, the Republican from Louisiana, told the Wall Street Journal, we need this like we need a bullet in the head. Senator Tom Tillis, the Republican from North Carolina, whose upcoming retirement has induced the surge of courage

that many of his colleagues are sorely lacking, promised to block any Fed nominee until the investigation is resolved. Some Republicans are clearly shaken up by all this. Senator John Kennedy, the Republican from Louisiana, told the Wall Street Journal, we need this like we need a hole in the head. Senator Tom Tillis, the Republican from North Carolina, whose upcoming retirement has induced a surge of courage that many of his colleagues are sorely lacking,

promised to block any Fed nominee until the investigation is resolved. One less courageous senator, Roger Marshall, the Republican from Kansas, degraded himself on Fox News by describing an open Department of Justice investigation as just the president trolling. It's all a big joke. You get it? Other White House officials are going off the record to Politico to describe their shock and frustration and to share theories about who may be behind the whole thing. One popular theory is Bill Paltier,

a close ally of Trump's, and the Federal Housing Finance Agency director. Of course, the White House is denying that Trump directed the DOJ investigation. I appreciate Guy Benson's call for patience under what the right is saying and calls to see the evidence in a sort of Powell-esque appeal to moderation.

But let's not kid ourselves. That may have been a reasonable position a month or two into Trump's presidency. It sounds like something I would have said in February or March. But now? After a year of watching this president operate? Come on.

Pretending Trump isn't behind this, that the DOJ probe isn't political, that the goal here isn't explicit. It's an insult to the entire nation's intelligence. As the president takes aim at the independence of one federal body, he's also diminishing the independence of another to a vanishing point. Attorney General Pam Bondi is crassly and transparently doing Trump's bidding,

completely shredding, even the pretense of independence at the DOJ. She's also apparently on thin ice with Trump and probably seeking his approval. Trump is literally on record demanding Bondi stop dragging her feet to go after James Comey, Leticia James, and Adam Schiff. This is smoking gun evidence of collusion between the White House and the DOJ, and yes, that is actually the right word for it this time around. Say what you want about Biden's DOJ investigating Trump, but at least Merrick Garland was given all to.

autonomy throughout his term. Even when the DOJ went after Trump, it was also dragging out an investigation into Biden's own son. Can you imagine today's DOJ ever investigating Donald Trump Jr. Or Eric Trump or Ivanka Trump? If not, what does that tell you? If we're lucky, the investigation to Powell on its own won't rattle the markets to the point of economic disruption, but it may rattle Trump's iron grip on Republicans. I've not seen a truer test of loyalty to the president. House Speaker Mike Johnson, the Republican from Louisiana, has already gone mealy-mouthed about the investigation, suggesting it could have some there-there when he clearly knows better. Are Republicans in Congress willing to risk the health of the United States economy, the single most important strength of our country, and the most salient issue to voters to appease Trump? If that's where we are, the future is darker and more dangerous than I imagined.

Hopefully, the uncomfortable sounds coming from Washington, D.C., turned out right defiance and criticism. soon, the kind that can stop this charade in its tracks. Because if not, we're in for a rocky road ahead. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answer. This one is from Ty, who submitted this question through subtext, by the way, which you can do. We have an SMS texting service. We'll drop a link in today's episode description.

I send out some breaking news analysis and behind-the-scenes stuff there. really fun. Ty said, does new video evidence look like body cam footage? It was actually a police officer cell phone. Change how you feel about the Minnesota ice shooting? No, it does not. In fact, when our team first watched the footage, the officer took with his phone, our general reaction was, this is not going to change anybody's mind. The impression that I had last week was that this shooting was sadly predictable and entirely preventable. The officer, Jonathan Ross, broke guidelines by walking in front of Renee Good's vehicle. He broke guidelines when he fired at her vehicle, and depending on how the case is argued in court, he likely broke the law as well. The only dissent we had

within our staff was over the likelihood of whether Ross would be convicted or not. From the newest video, I think I learned two new things. First, Ross seemed to have a civil exchange with good before the shooting. This, to me, provided more evidence she was never a threat and didn't want to hurt him. She literally says, I'm not mad at you, on tape. Not your typical fine. final words before trying to run someone over with your car. However, Ross also seemed to be in the midst of a verbal confrontation with Good's partner when he began recording. I'm not sure how that will impact a jury's view of the shooting, but he was clearly engaged in some exchange that had grabbed his attention. Second, the officer who got out of the ice vehicle that arrived on

the scene looks to be more responsible for setting the events into motion than I previously thought. He left his truck, shouted, get out of the fucking car loudly enough to overtake Ross's audio, and startled Good into attempting to drive away as he pulled on her door handle. If he had not escalated the situation and Good had not made a panicky choice to flee without looking in front of her and Ross had not been distracted when she pulled her vehicle into drive, then everything could have turned out differently. Ultimately, the new video only reinforced my view that the ICE agents were escalating the situation, were breaking protocol, and were not confronting someone who presented a reasonable threat to their safety.

That is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod, and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. On Friday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated that illnesses

linked to this year's flu season have totaled approximately 15 million, leading to an estimated 180,000 hospitalizations and 7,400 deaths. Most cases are linked to subclad K, a new flu strain that circulated outside the U.S. over the summer and drove us spiking cases in Canada, Japan, and the United Kingdom. 42 U.S. states are currently experiencing elevated levels of flu-like illnesses, and medical professionals expect the spread to continue. There's a lot of influenza out there right now, Dr. Carey Reed, chief of the CDC influenza divisions, epidemiology, and prevention branch said,

we often see activity continue into the spring. I think the reality is that it's going to continue to be elevated for a little bit longer. ABC News has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. And last but not least our Have a Nice Day story. The habitats for flat-headed cats in Southeast Asia are rapidly disappearing, putting them among the world's rarest and most threatened wildcat species. The cat has not been cited in Thailand since 1995, as its peat swamp habitats have become increasingly fragmented.

But in a recent ecological survey, Thai researchers recorded 29 possible detections of the species, including confirmed footage of one mother cat with her cub. The rediscovery marks a first step in effort, to revive the flat-headed cat population and ensure the species' survival alongside humans. Science Alert has this story,

and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to reetangle.com, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets to a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow.

For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace. Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Wohl. Today's episode was Edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman with senior editor Will Kback and associate editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsay Canuth, and Bailey Saul.

Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at reetangle.com.