Tangle - The Fani Willis testimony.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News.

Starting point is 00:00:29 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to

Starting point is 00:01:05 your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about Fannie Willis and her testimony that happened late last week. Some fireworks

Starting point is 00:02:07 in the courtroom, some very big implications for Donald Trump and his election interference case in Georgia. Hope you guys had a good long weekend. In case you missed it, Ari and I dropped a podcast on Sunday where we talked about some of our recent coverage, some NATO stuff, Sunday, where we talked about some of our recent coverage, some NATO stuff, some disagreement among the Tangle editorial staff, and then also had a pretty lengthy conversation about Zionism and defining it, what it meant to us, whether I consider myself a Zionist. I thought it was actually really interesting and fun and even informative for me in some ways to see some of the definitions Ari brought to the conversation. So, I encourage you to go check that out if you missed it. And with that out of the way, we're going to jump in with some quick hits.

Starting point is 00:03:00 All right, we were off yesterday, so today we have eight quick hits rather than just five. First up, former President Donald Trump was ordered to pay a penalty of at least $350 million and was barred from running a company in New York for three years. The ruling came in a civil fraud trial in which Trump was charged with misrepresenting his wealth. Number two, an FBI informant who gave the agency information about an alleged connection between the Bidens and a Ukrainian energy company was arrested for making false statements about President Biden and his son, Hunter. Number three, Israel warned that it will expand its ground invasion into Gaza's southern city of Rafah on March 10th if Hamas does not release the remaining

Starting point is 00:03:43 hostages held there. 1.5 million Palestinians, more than half of Gaza, have fled to Rafah to shelter during the war. Number four, Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader who was being held in a penal colony, was pronounced dead by Russian authorities. Hundreds were then arrested in Russia amid demonstrations mourning his death. Number five, Senator Joe Manchin, the Democrat from West Virginia, said he won't run for president this year despite rumors he may join a no-labels ticket. Separately, Representative Dean Phillips, the Democrat from Minnesota, announced layoffs on his campaign staff but pledged to stay in the race. Number six, two

Starting point is 00:04:21 police officers and a paramedic were killed during a domestic incident call in Burnsville, Minnesota, that is now garnering national attention. Number seven, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange will appear in court today to appeal extradition from the United Kingdom to the United States. He faces 17 charges under the Espionage Act for orchestrating the 2010 release of classified documents exposing civilian casualties in the U.S. war in Iraq. And number eight, Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers, the Democrat, approved a new congressional map after the state Supreme Court struck down previous maps testimony connected to trump's georgia election interference case took a detour thursday fulton county district attorney fannie willis who is prosecuting trump took the stand herself

Starting point is 00:05:19 to defend against a request to disqualify her. Fulton County, Georgia prosecutors did not call District Attorney Fannie Willis to the witness stand for additional questioning Friday. Willis forcefully defended herself Thursday and accused defense attorneys of lying as part of a bid to disqualify her and her office from prosecuting the Georgia election interference case against former President Trump. I object to you getting records. You've been intrusive into people's personal lives. You're confused. You think I'm on trial. These people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. I'm not on trial,

Starting point is 00:05:55 no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. On Thursday, the Fulton County, Georgia district attorney took the stand in dramatic fashion. Willis is fighting the claim that a relationship between her and private attorney Nathan Wade should disqualify her and her team from carrying on with the election interference and racketeering case against Donald Trump. Quick reminder here, Willis is leading the sprawling investigation into Donald Trump's efforts to overturn Joe Biden's victory in Georgia in the 2020 election. She used the state's anti-racketeering laws to file a 98-page indictment against Trump and 18 co-conspirators on charges of conspiracy to commit forgery, influence witnesses, computer theft, impersonating a public officer, and filing false documents. Four of the co-conspirators have

Starting point is 00:06:43 already taken plea deals. The case is considered one of the greatest legal threats to Trump because he couldn't theoretically pardon himself from a state conviction if he wins the 2024 election. However, lawyers for one of those 18 co-defendants, a man named Michael Roman, who ran Trump's Election Day operations, have filed a motion to remove Willis from the case. According to Roman's lawyers, Willis was engaged in an affair with Wade when she hired him to manage the case, resulting in Willis' district attorney's office paying him hundreds of thousands of dollars, which in turn Wade used to take Willis on a number of exotic vacations. This, Roman argued, created a conflict

Starting point is 00:07:22 of interest that could impact prosecutorial decisions. Roman's lawyers then argued that Wade, Willis, and Willis' entire office should be disqualified from the case for a conflict of interest, given that Willis was enriching someone she had a relationship with by moving the case forward. This motion against Willis' case does not just apply to Roman, it applies to the 15 remaining defendants, including Trump, who have not yet been tried on the charges brought in Georgia. So what just happened? Well, the motion was initially received skeptically by legal experts as a Hail Mary effort to get the case thrown out. But then, Roman's lawyers presented evidence,

Starting point is 00:08:00 including credit card statements, that showed Wade had purchased tickets to vacation destinations for himself and Willis. Wade then filed a sworn affidavit in which he conceded he and Willis had an affair, but stating it began after they started working together. On Thursday, a much-hyped star witness, Wade's divorce lawyer, Terrence Bradley, took the stand but ultimately gave up little information, citing various technical reasons, including attorney-client privilege, for why he couldn't answer with more detail. Instead, it was a former friend of Willis's, a woman named Robin Yerty, who ended up testifying that she remembered Willis's affair with Wade beginning before he started working on this case in November 2021. This undercut sworn testimony from both Wade and Willis. Then, while Willis'

Starting point is 00:08:47 lawyer was arguing to the judge about why she shouldn't need to testify, Willis entered the courtroom and decided to take the stand herself. In combative exchanges with Roman's defense attorney Ashley Merchant and the judge overseeing the hearing, Willis insisted she was being publicly smeared, responded to questions in lengthy detail, spoke over other lawyers, and claimed false and offensive allegations were being levied against her. Ultimately, Willis and Wade both told similar stories, that Willis had actually paid Wade for the vacations in cash, which they had no receipts for, and that neither of them have benefited inappropriately from the case or their relationship.

Starting point is 00:09:29 Both gave similar timelines for when their relationship began and ended, and those timelines contradicted Yorty's. When pressed to present evidence like bank receipts of cash withdrawals for the trip, Willis told a story about her father always insisting that you have six months' rent in cash in your home and said she used that money to pay Wade for the trips. These people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. I'm not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on trial, Willis said in response to questions from Merchant. Now, a debate is ensuing about whether Willis acted inappropriately, how strong the evidence of a conflict of interest actually is against her, and whether her relationship with Wade should be grounds for removal, even if the defense attorney's allegations

Starting point is 00:10:08 are all true. Today, we're going to explore some opinions from the left and the right, and then my take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. First up, we'll start with what the right is saying. The right is highly critical of Willis' testimony, suggesting she's done irreparable damage to the integrity of the case. Some say Willis is presenting herself as a victim, but has only herself to blame. Others say Trump continues to benefit from the ineptitude of those who attack him. In Fox News, Philip Holloway wrote that Willis did herself no favors in the court of public opinion. Whatever goodwill Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis had with people who do not have strong feelings either way about Donald Trump was squandered in an Atlanta courtroom by Willis's absurd and embarrassing spectacle of unprofessional and childish behavior by someone

Starting point is 00:11:10 who was supposed to be a professional, fair-minded prosecutor, Holloway said. Rather than acknowledging she used bad judgment in having an affair with her special prosecutor, she put on the cloak of righteous indignation. Rather than concede that she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar, she picked a courtroom fight with a lawyer who is simply defending her client, as the Constitution requires. Fonny Willis is either a terrible witness or a brilliant witness depending on how you see things, but she is likely to nevertheless prevail on this issue. Why? Because the judge may be stuck with her claim that she repaid Wade in cash, Holloway added. Willis and Wade are not out of the woods yet, however. There are still the issues of whether either or both have lied to the court about when their affair began. It's too soon to know if the

Starting point is 00:11:54 Fulton Rico case will collapse under the weight of the host of ethical claims brought by the remaining defendants, but one thing is certain. The prosecution will be playing defense for the foreseeable future. In the New York Post, Isaac Shore called Willis just another false Democrat idol who's now playing the victim. Willis is already being celebrated in the same way that Michael Avenatti once was, Shore wrote. We're fully through the looking glass here. To have any semblance of perspective and listen to the effusive praise for Willis is to feel like you've been transported to the Twilight Zone. Willis is not some scrappy underdog being unfairly maligned. She's a prosecutor with the power to strip citizens of their liberty. She's been

Starting point is 00:12:34 entrusted with a solemn responsibility. Instead of treating it as such, she's dispersed hundreds of thousands of dollars in public funds to her lover. Now she's playing the victim for being found out. If anybody other than Donald Trump, she's playing the victim for being found out. If anybody other than Donald Trump, whose conduct in the wake of the 2020 election was abominable and yes, potentially criminal, were the defendant in this case, the disgust over Willis' behavior would be universal. But because she's after him, Willis has become the subject of admiration rather than scorn on the left. What a world we live in when even after January 6th, Donald Trump is a hero to many on the right, and despite her obvious ethical lapses,

Starting point is 00:13:11 Fannie Willis is a hero to the left. In the Daily Caller, Josh Hammer said Donald Trump has all the right enemies. Trump is truly blessed with the best enemies. For all of Trump's bad luck, he is also aided right now by some very, very good luck, Hammer wrote. Willis's courtroom meltdown this week and the likelihood that she lied in court about the timing of her extramarital affair with her own appointed special prosecutor has crystallized what already seemed likely. The Georgia prosecution, which once seemed like the most dangerous of Trump's four criminal cases, is imploding. At this point, Trump's Georgia case is not reaching a verdict before the election.

Starting point is 00:13:53 The only questions are whether a trial commences at all and whether Willis ends up being the one to go to jail instead of Trump or his co-defendants. It is often said that it is better to be lucky than good, Hammer said. Everywhere else Trump looks, Lady Luck seems to be shining. Alright, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is disappointed in Willis' decision-making, but troubled by the assertions made about her. Some say her testimony was sufficient to prove she could remain on the case. Others suggest Willis has undermined the legitimacy of the case. In the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Nedgerone wrote, The aim isn't just to disqualify Fonny Willis. It's to discredit her. When the hearing began, it quickly became clear that defense attorneys weren't only seeking to

Starting point is 00:14:43 disqualify Willis. Their line of questioning and impudent manner indicated they wanted even more so to taint and embarrass her, not just in the moment, but for the rest of her career, Rohn said. I found myself managing conflicting feelings, dismay over Willis's seeming lapse in judgment and the irrepressible hope that she would prevail and dispel the notion that she, a highly skilled attorney, would use taxpayer dollars to fund meals at inexpensive restaurants and romantic vacations with Wade. As a woman, watching the hearing was painful. I felt every moment when defense attorneys used a rude or disrespectful tone with Willis, when they discounted cultural norms, or when they continually tried to push legal boundaries and had to be reined in by Judge Scott McAfee. Ultimately, the judge will decide if Willis benefits from hiring Wade and whether

Starting point is 00:15:30 this impedes her ability to conduct the case fairly. She made a mistake in mixing business with pleasure, as many of us do, though our stumbles aren't so public. But while she may have brought this situation upon herself, I want to give her the space to be human. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu

Starting point is 00:16:20 season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. In MSNBC, Anthony Coley argued that Willis' testimony conveyed strength, a clear command of the law and the facts, and a much-needed level of public candor. Based on what we now know, Willis' sexual relationship with Wade clearly has nothing to do with Trump's corrupt attempt to steal the 2020 election or the prosecution of that

Starting point is 00:17:03 alleged crime. With confidence and candor, Willis disassembled the arguments against her, Coley said. She credibly rebutted the assertion that she and Wade had ever lived together, and she confirmed under oath and on the record that her personal relationship with Wade began after he started working for Fulton County, contradicting the early testimony of her former friend. Even so, Willis owes voters more of an explanation about her personal relationship with Wade. In 2020, she promised them that she would not date a person on her staff, Coley added, but that's an issue for another day. Right now, Willis has convinced me that her behavior, while ill-advised, does not warrant her recusal from

Starting point is 00:17:41 this case. But today's testimony has had a surprising secondary effect. After watching her testify, I feel more confident than before that she has the toughness and resolve to continue this prosecution against Trump. In Slate, Jeremy Stahl and Mark Joseph Stern said Willis' strange, furious testimony may have blown up her case against Trump. Willis managed to put forth a set of fairly plausible rebuttals to claims that she violated any formal rules or misrepresented herself to the court. And yet none of her protestations could possibly inspire confidence in a skeptic that she should continue to lead this prosecution. Anyone bringing criminal charges against Trump is bound to face withering scrutiny of their professional and private lives. They must conduct themselves unimpeachably to avoid even a hint of bias or corruption.

Starting point is 00:18:30 By failing to disclose her relationship to the court in the first instance, Willis did not live up to that standard. The district attorney's embarkation upon strange tangents and rambling monologues is proof in itself that the optics of the situation are not good for her side. No matter what happens to Willis next, a huge amount of damage has already been inflicted on the integrity and legitimacy of this case, Stahl and Stern wrote. If this episode ends with McAfee disqualifying Willis from the prosecution, it will be a spectacular self-own and severely damage one of the most important efforts to

Starting point is 00:19:04 hold Trump accountable for his attacks on democracy. All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So, this is an incredibly disappointing spectacle for more reasons than one. As I've said before, I believe Trump's efforts to pressure election officials to find votes, submit false electors, or otherwise change the 2020 election result to be the most dangerous and despicable acts he took while in office. I view them far more negatively than the events of January 6th, even though what happened that day is closely related. That's why I care about this case. I also care about it because it is a state case in Fulton County, Georgia,

Starting point is 00:19:55 not Washington, D.C., which means two things. Trump cannot receive a federal pardon if he is convicted, and two, Trump is much more likely to get a fair trial, especially in the public's eye, in Fulton County than in deep blue Washington, D.C. I'm not making a presumption of Trump's guilt or innocence. From the beginning, I've said that this case was not the slam dunk many on the left made it out to be. This is what I wrote when we first saw this indictment. Quote, making the definitive case that the election was not stolen and that Trump and his associates named in the indictment acted criminally to change the outcome will be extremely difficult for Willis. Logistically, I have no idea how she plans to get all these people in a courtroom before the 2024 election. Additionally, RICO cases are notoriously

Starting point is 00:20:42 complicated, and I'm not entirely sure how the RICO statutes will hold up in this novel application. All of that was true before this latest drama was injected into the case. It's obvious to me that Willis acted with very poor judgment, whether she gets booted from this case or not, and that alone is incredibly unfortunate. Anyone prosecuting such a far-reaching and consequential case needs to have unimpeachable credentials and character, and Willis can no longer make that claim. Now, regardless of if she stays on and gets a conviction, part of this story will be about her instead of Trump's guilt or innocence. Personally, I found Willis's testimony at times convincing and at times grating. Ultimately, I left feeling like what she was accused of doing was not enough to disqualify her from the case, and I'd be a bit surprised

Starting point is 00:21:29 if that is the outcome. To be totally frank, I don't really care whether her relationship with Wade came before or after she hired him. If it happened before, it is a serious ethical lapse that deserves some kind of punishment, though removing her from the biggest case of her career after this public embarrassment feels a bit like overkill unless there is some evidence she changed her handling of the case because of their relationship. If it happened after, it is poor judgment and the public shaming has probably been enough punishment already. Either way, based on what we know now, their relationship had absolutely zero discernible impact on the indictment or charges against Trump. In a piece calling for Willis to step aside, I thought Richard Painter neatly

Starting point is 00:22:10 summed up why she shouldn't be disqualified. A conflict of interest disqualifies a prosecutor from a case only when the prosecutor's conflict could prejudice the defendant, Painter said. None of the factual allegations made by the defendants support an inference that such prejudice could exist in this case. In fact, the defendants are enjoying every minute of this sideshow, which is entirely irrelevant to the merits of the criminal case. And yet, if a judge decides this ethical breach is enough to remove Willis and her team from the case, I'm not going to die on the hill trying to defend her. Fundamentally, the fact that she could have benefited financially from her appointment of Wade is enough to question keeping her on. Instead, I'll just be deeply disappointed that an attempt to hold the people

Starting point is 00:22:54 accountable who tried to undermine the 2020 election results will never truly get its fair day in court. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one is from John in Bogota, Colombia. John said, did you listen to Ezra Klein's recent take on Biden stepping down? What are your thoughts on it? I did actually listen to it, and I found it incredibly persuasive. For those of you who missed it, Klein made the case in a 25-minute podcast monologue that President Biden should step aside and allow the Democratic Party to tap his replacement. You can go read or listen

Starting point is 00:23:46 to it with a link in today's episode description. He starts by making the case that Biden has been a good president and that everyone he speaks to who is close to Biden says he is genuinely running the show. I'm not going to get into those arguments here, but it's what Klein says next that is the most interesting. First, he said Biden is very clearly not the same man he was four years ago, and although he might be able to serve as president, he does not appear to be up for campaigning for president. Trump is winning right now, and Democrats need an injection of something new to turn the tables. It is not too late to change course. Biden needs to realize that his legacy is on the line, and it'd be better for him to concede

Starting point is 00:24:25 it should someone else step down now. Once he does that, Democrats could use the convention to pick a nominee, which would be an incredible spectacle and media bonanza that'd be good for the party. There's a ton of talent on the Democratic bench behind Biden, and after days of speeches and jockeying for attention, whoever came out as the nominee wouldn't be Biden or Trump, and Democrats could say that they listened to the country and this candidate would immediately be at an advantage. Frankly, I think all of this is right. I actually think it is a pretty brilliant reframing of the choices Democrats have. Yes, it is in some way anti-democratic because in this scenario, the primaries where Biden is destroying other candidates would be over and the party's delegates would be the ones choosing. is in some way anti-democratic because in this scenario, the primaries where Biden is destroying

Starting point is 00:25:05 other candidates would be over and the party's delegates would be the ones choosing. But that blame will mostly fall to Biden for taking so long to step down. Then, the party only has one option, which is taking it to the convention. On the upside, the delegates picking the next candidate would be representatives from each state, casting votes based on what they hear and see from voters and the candidates, and that is certainly worth something. I also think the media spectacle, stealing the attention from Trump and doing something a bit radical to energize the Democratic base, would be very smart. It would be an absolute media blowout, with live speeches from Democrats nationally televised for days on end, culminating with a massive reveal of the nominee, followed by all the earned media that nominee would get heading into November.

Starting point is 00:25:50 Even better for Democrats is that it'd take weeks or months for the Republican Party to gather the opposition research and framing to take the candidate down a notch. Could it backfire? Definitely. Incline acknowledges that. But I still think it's a better option for the party than forcing a second Biden term on unenthusiastic voters, many of whom will only be casting a ballot to stop Trump. All right, that is it for your questions answered, which brings us to our Under the Radar section. Former President Donald Trump is privately expressing support for a 16-week national abortion ban with exceptions for rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother. Trump has avoided taking a clear position on abortion restrictions since the fall of Roe v. Wade, which has been followed by a series of electoral wins for Democrats.

Starting point is 00:26:41 According to reports, Trump has reportedly been vetting vice presidents based on their abortion stances, insisting Republicans will continue to lose elections if they don't include the three exceptions in their position. The New York Times has the story on what he's thinking, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. Next up is the numbers section. The percentage of Americans who say Trump should have been charged with a crime in the Georgia case, according to an August 2023 poll, was 49%. The percentage of Americans who say the charges in Georgia against Trump are politically motivated was 49%. The percentage of Georgia voters who said the charges against Trump and Fannie

Starting point is 00:27:23 Wills' indictment were very serious or somewhat serious in a November 2023 survey from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution was 69%. And the percentage of Georgia voters who say Trump was wrong to ask Georgia officials to change the outcome of the 2020 election was 68%. Meanwhile, Donald Trump's lead over Joe Biden in Georgia in a hypothetical 2024 matchup is 45 to 44 percent, according to a November 2023 poll from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. All right, and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day section. At a weekend swim meet in Sonic, British Columbia, Betty Brussel broke the existing world record in the 400-meter freestyle by an incredible four minutes. She was three times slower than the Olympic record, but Brussel is now the record holder in the 100-104 age group. That same day, she set records for the 50-meter backstroke and the 50-meter breaststroke as well. set records for the 50-meter backstroke and the 50-meter breaststroke as well.

Starting point is 00:28:29 Brussel first took interest in competitive swimming in her mid-60s when she raced in the British Columbia Senior Games. I had no idea what I was doing, she said, but she was hooked. Since then, she's kept the same routine, going to the pool to swim twice a week with no drills. What can I say? I'm a bit lazy. The Guardian has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description all right everybody that is it for today's podcast

Starting point is 00:28:54 as always if you want to support our work you can go to retangle.com forward slash membership and don't forget we are coming to New York City April 17th Wednesday live event tickets are now on sale on citywinery.com. There's a link to those tickets in today's episode description. I very much hope to see some of you there. We'll be right back here same time tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.

Starting point is 00:29:23 Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. Peace. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. If you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, We'll be right back. buried history and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu.

Starting point is 00:30:45 It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Tangle - The Fani Willis testimony.

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