Tangle - The healthcare CEO shooting

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

On Wednesday, a gunman shot and killed UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson outside a hotel in New York City. Police have yet to publicly identify the shooter or determine a motive, though they believe the attack was targeted. Despite these limited details, the incident has reignited debates about the United States’s healthcare system and incited controversy on social media, where many have expressed support for the shooter.Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to tanglemedia.supercast.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.Take the survey: What was your reaction to news of the UnitedHealthcare CEO shooting? Let us know!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at FIS.ca. From executive producer, Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul. And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the healthcare CEO shooting. You know, the story of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson being killed in New York City. For those of

you who listened to the Sunday podcast, you got a preview of my thoughts and feelings here yesterday as Ari and I recorded. But today we're going to give it the standard tangle treatment with the breakdown of what happened and some opinions from across the political spectrum. Before we jump into that though, I do want to give you a quick heads up on a very special note about this holiday season. For those of you who don't know, you can actually give the gift of Tangle, as we like to say.

We have Tangle gift subscriptions for the newsletter and the website. But the way it works is pretty simple. You can basically just buy a family member friend or a coworker a subscription to the Tangle newsletter and our website by using the link that is in today's episode description or in today's newsletter if you wanna go check that out.

You can also just do this on our website by going to readtangle.com forward slash gift dash subscription that'll take you to a page where you can enter anyone's email you want and their name and then give them a subscription to tangle. Also, for those of you who know family or friends who you want to give a gift that are already tangle fans, we have a merch store. We don't really talk about it much, but we have t-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs,

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So it's holiday season. I know some people out there might be looking for final gifts or stocking stuffers and consider some Tangled Stuff as a potential way to solve your gifting problems. All right, with that, I'm going to send it over to John for today's main story. And I'll be back for my take. Thanks, Isaac. And welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today.

First up, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and his family fled to Russia after Syrian rebel forces seized control of the capital of Damascus. The fall of Assad's government comes after a 13-year civil war and widespread reports of human rights violations overseen by Assad. On Sunday, Israel said it had taken control of territory on the Syrian side of the border of the Golan Heights, its first captured Syrian territory since 1973. Number 2. South Korean lawmakers failed to hold a planned vote on impeaching President Yun Suk-yul after members of Yun's People Power Party party boycotted the vote, which

followed his decision to declare martial law last week. However, party leader Han Dong-hoon said Yun would no longer be involved in state affairs for the remainder of his term. Separately, the Romanian Constitutional Court cancelled the results of the country's first round presidential elections in November, citing an alleged Russian interference campaign to boost their preferred candidate. Romania must now restart the electoral process. Number 3. In his first broadcast interview since winning the election, President-elect Donald Trump

laid out his plans for his first months in office, telling Meet the Press' Kristen Welker that he would pursue an extension of the tax cuts passed in his first term, not raise the age for government programs like Social Security and Medicare, not seek to restrict access to abortion pills, issue pardons for those convicted in the January 6th Capitol riot, and seek to end birthright citizenship. 4. The judge in Daniel Penny's trial dismissed the manslaughter charge against him after convicted in the January 6 Capitol riot and seek to end birthright citizenship. The judge in Daniel Penny's trial dismissed the manslaughter charge against him after the jury failed to reach a unanimous decision on the count.

The jury will continue to debate a lesser charge of criminal negligent homicide on Monday. A federal appeals court ruled that a law requiring the social media app TikTok to sell its U.S. operations or be banned in the United States is constitutional, rejecting the challenger's argument that the ban infringes on free speech. Now to the expanding manhunt for the suspect in the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Police continue to search Central Park for clothes both on land and in water. Yesterday a police scuba team searched the waters of Central Park looking for evidence including the gun used in the murder of Brian Thompson. Police released two new photos of a person of interest. On Wednesday, a gunman shot and killed UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson outside a hotel in New York City.

Police have yet to publicly identify the shooter or determine a motive, though they believe the attack was targeted. Despite these limited details, the incident has reignited debates about the United States' health care system and incited controversy on social media, where many have expressed support for the shooter. Thompson became chief executive officer of UnitedHealthcare in 2021, after more than two decades at the company. UnitedHealthcare offers health insurance to individuals and employers and generated approximately $281 billion in revenue in 2023. That year, Thompson received a total compensation package of $10.2

million. Earlier this year, Bloomberg reported that Thompson was one of several United Health executives who sold millions of dollars' worth of company stock prior to the announcement of a federal antitrust investigation. The shooting took place at approximately 6.45 a.m. Eastern time in Midtown Manhattan. Surveillance footage shows the assailant firing multiple shots at Thompson from close range before fleeing toward Central Park on a bicycle. Thompson was transported in critical condition to Mount Sinai West Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. Police shared photos of the suspect, who appeared to be a young white man, from the hostel where

he had been staying prior to the attack, but they have yet to release further details about his identity. On Saturday, New York City Mayor Eric Adams said law enforcement was making progress toward making an arrest, though police also believe that the suspect is no longer in New York City. On Friday, New York City Chief of Detectives Joseph Kenney said investigators were exploring whether the shooter could have been an employee or client of UnitedHealthcare. Additionally, police are investigating several pieces of evidence from the immediate aftermath of the attack, including a backpack found in Central Park believed to have been worn

by the shooter. They have also tested a discarded water bottle and a protein bar wrapper for DNA and obtained a search warrant to search a cell phone found along the gunman's escape route. While the attack caused shock over the nature of the shooting along the gunman's escape route. While the attack caused shock over the nature of the shooting and the gunman's ability to evade capture so far, it has also generated intense debate about the motive. In particular, the discovery of shell casings

at the crime scene with the words delay, deny, and depose written on them, suggesting that the shooting could have been motivated by insurance company policies. Delay, Deny, Defend is the title of a 2010 book on tactics used by insurance companies to avoid reimbursing patient claims. On social media, scores of users have linked the incident to broader complaints about purported exploitative practices of insurers like UnitedHealthcare, with some even praising the shooter. The Network Contagion Research Institute released a report that found that six of the top ten

most engaged posts on X about the shooting on Wednesday either expressed explicit or implicit support for the killer or denigrated the victim. Furthermore, public acts of solidarity with the shooter have taken place around New York City, many of which referenced the delay, deny, depose messaging. In the days since the attack, large corporations have adopted heightened security measures for their executives, particularly those in pharmaceutical

and insurance industries. Today, we'll explore the reactions to the shooting from the left and the right, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this short break. We'll be right back after this short break. We'll be right back after this quick break. Guests, Polyphia and Wisp, live in Toronto. Roger Stadium, September 3rd. Get tickets this Friday at noon at LiveNation.com. System of a Down and Deftones.

Roger Stadium, September 3rd. For more, visit Systemofadown.com. Timothy Chalamet transforms into the enigmatic Bob Dylan in A Complete Unknown, a cinematic captivation that explores the tumultuous life of a musical icon. This mesmerizing film captures the essence of Dylan's rebellious spirit and his relentless pursuit of artistic innovation. From the director of acclaimed films, Walk the Line and Logan, this extraordinary cinematic experience is a testament to the power of music and the enduring legacy of a true visionary. Watch the trailer now and secure your tickets for a truly

unforgettable cinematic experience. A complete unknown. Only in theaters December 25th. All right, first up, let's start with a bit of agreement. Both sides agree that if indeed motivated by health insurance grievances, the shooting was not the right way to address the issue. The left and right are both dismayed by displays of acceptance and praise for the shooter on social media. Alright, let's move on to what the left is saying. The left is concerned by the celebratory response by some to Thompson's death, arguing the attack won't encourage necessary reforms.

Some say the anger that followed the shooting is a sign of societal fraying. Others say the response shouldn't come as a surprise against the backdrop of the U.S. health care system. In Bloomberg, Lisa Jarvis said, The health insurance industry is broken. Don't let it break us. I found myself wincing at the tone of the messages rolling in on my various group threads and social media sites, including from people whose opinion I usually deeply respect. My compass on these things is always how I'd want my daughter to hear me react in such

a moment. Would I want her to think it's okay to dance on the grave of someone whose sons are now fatherless? Jarvis wrote. And yet we can't ignore the ferocity of the responses, or the fact that no one's gut told them to check it. It lays bare a ground truth. If there's anything our fractured country seems to agree on, it's that the health care system is tragically broken and the companies profiting from it are morally bankrupt. I desperately want this rage to be channeled into something productive. My worry is that it will not, and by design, cannot under the U.S. current health care

infrastructure. That instead of prompting health care companies to introspection about their most egregious, profit-driven behaviors, that they will simply go quiet and hope we move on," Jarvis said. I also worry that the rage is causing more people to gravitate toward ideas that ultimately are dangerous. There seems to be a growing attitude that real change can only come by burning it all down or that we need to be open to extreme approaches to fixing our system. In the New York Times, Zeynep Tufekce suggested the rage and glee that followed a CEO's killing

should ring all alarms. Even before any details were available, the internet was awash in speculation that the company had refused to cover the alleged killer's medical bills, and in debates about whether murder would be a reasonable response, Tufekci wrote. It's true that any news with shock value would get some of this response online. After all, trolling, engagement bait, and performative provocation are part of everyday life on digital platforms. But this was something different.

The rage that people felt at the healthcare industry and the elation that they expressed at seeing it injured was widespread and organic. The conditions that gave rise to this outpouring of anger are in some ways specific to this moment. Today's business culture enshrines the maximization of executive wealth and shareholder fortunes and has succeeded in leveraging personal riches into untold political influence. But the currents we are seeing are expressions of something more fundamental," Tufekce said.

The fraying of the social contract is getting worse. Americans express less and less trust in many institutions. Substantial majorities of people say that government, business leaders, and the media are purposely misleading them. In striking contrast to older generations, In the Guardian, Arwa Madawi wrote about why Brian Thompson's death has elicited little sympathy. It doesn't matter how great a guy he might have been to his friends and family. He was a top executive at a company that has treated millions of people very poorly. Health insurance in the US is a racket that is more focused on increasing profits than providing care, and UnitedHealthcare is particularly egregious when it comes to getting its customers

to pay enormous premiums, then turning around and denying them care when they desperately need it. In short, Thompson was the face of an unfair system that has screwed millions of people over. Whatever the motive, many people seem to think Thompson got what he deserved. The glee we're seeing doesn't stem from animosity towards insurance companies, but anger towards an unfair system in which the elite rarely seem to face any consequences for their actions, Maddawi said. Murdering anyone is quite clearly wrong, but please spare me the pearl-clutching from people, many politicians and billionaires, who are shocked by the satisfaction Thompson's murder

has inspired. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is dismayed by the shooting and the response that followed. Some suggest the progressive left's response has laid bare the hypocrisy of their politics. Others worry that American society is embracing violence as a solution for anger. In National Review, Dominic Pino said, murdering CEOs is evil. The natural human reaction to all of this is to first be horrified that a husband and father of two children was murdered. The second reaction to this is to wonder who planned this and whether they have also planned

more hits against other UnitedHealth executives or leaders of other companies," Pino wrote. "'This is not the time to offer your criticisms of the health insurance industry. There is never a time to believe that corporate executives are, by their very nature, evil people who deserve to be killed. Yet that's what you'll see if you go on social media right now and look at the comments on news stories about this assassination. I had never heard of Brian Thompson before today, and it's entirely possible that he made some bad decisions.

It's not possible that he deserved to be murdered because nobody deserves to be murdered. And the level of seething resentment some people seem to have of wealthy people is deeply unhealthy," Pino said. Socialism is always motivated by envy and often brought about by violence. If there is some kind of organized effort to target CEOs with violence to win applause from the public, that ought to fail because the American public would be repulsed by it. All of us need to be repulsed by this murder. Basic human decency and a commitment to a free society demand it.

In the free press, Kat Rosenfield wrote, A CEO was shot dead. These people cheered. The shooting was captured on video. The killer, masked and dressed in black, steps out from behind a parked car as Thompson passes. A moment later, Thompson stumbles, falls, and doesn't get up. It's terrible to watch.

And yet, this literal snuff film is less disturbing than the various critics and commentators, many of them self-described progressive empaths who preach compassion for the marginalized and hashtag their posts with Be Kind, who are treating this real murder of a real person as though it were the emotionally cathartic climax of a John Wick movie. This practice of celebrating the destruction of one individual person as a scapegoat for whether a systemic injustice, racism or sexism, or in this case, corporate greed, has been a recurring cultural phenomenon since roughly

the first Trump administration, Rosenfield said. It has always been human nature to hunt for witches, particularly in moments when everything seems to either be broken or falling apart. When people feel scared and out of control, as anyone who has ever had the displeasure of tangling with a health insurance conglomerate in the midst of a medical crisis surely has, it's strangely soothing to imagine that every harm, every injustice, can be traced back to the depravity of a single mustache-twirling villain who feasts while decent people starve. The only problem is, it's not true.

In the Deseret News, Cliff Smith argued the decoupling of ends and means is leading to disaster. Something has taken a hold in America that is particularly toxic. Namely, too many people seem to believe that any grievance justifies any response to rectify it. And this past week, we've seen a particularly dangerous example of this playing out on the internet and in the media," Smith wrote. The people that were justifying a premeditated killing need to have a good, hard think and

undertake an examination of their own consciences and of reality. Their usual take amounted to this. Since the healthcare industry is flawed, it leads to people dying, ostensibly due to corporate greed. It is therefore okay to justify and even celebrate Thompson's cold-blooded murder. You can see similar flawed logic playing out in big or small ways in those who justify Hamas's attacks on innocent Israelis, justify the pardoning of the plainly guilty Hunter Biden because his dad is president, and account for

delegitimizing elections and attacking the Capitol, Smith said, Anger itself is not wrong, but it can lead us to doing wrong things. There has to be a direct, comparable connection between the means and ends, and whatever means taken cannot be more destructive than the ends gained. No amount of anger, justified or not, changes that. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take. That is it for with the left and the right saying which brings us to my take. So before Brian Thompson was killed last week, I had never heard of him. I'm a politics reporter and I pay pretty good attention to the general societal upset

over the state of health insurance in America. So I suspect that if I had never heard Brian Thompson's name then probably 99% of other Americans at least also had not heard of him until he was murdered in cold blood. That reality makes the general tenor of the reaction to his death all the more startling, at least for me. When Donald Trump was nearly assassinated and many on the left joked about how

they wish the shooter didn't miss, I was morally shocked. I thought it was disgusting, but predictable. Americans live in a deeply polarized world where they are effectively being brainwashed to hate people whose politics they don't agree with, a reality that informs the very work we do here at Tangle. So the reaction to an attempt to kill our most famous politician didn't take me by surprise. But this, this was a little different. On Tuesday night, nobody knew who Brian Thompson was. By Wednesday at lunch, people were celebrating his death

with little regard for the wife or kids he left behind and little care about what he actually did as a CEO. The fact that he led UnitedHealthcare was enough for him to be deserving of death or unworthy of sympathy. Even if you believe Thompson was all the evil things so many people online say he was, a corrupt CEO guilty of insider trading and working as the face of a company that denies life-saving coverage to tens of thousands of Americans a year in the name of profit, he was a corporate cog. He was responsible to a board and to shareholders, and in short order, he'll be replaced by another CEO. Nothing will have changed, except that killing someone in the middle of Manhattan whom you

deem evil is now going to be more normal. I know how a lot of people might react to me writing this because I've encountered the refrains already. It's good these people are scared is one common through line of the response. In other words, no, I don't necessarily support killing corporate CEOs in cold blood on the streets, but if CEOs scale back their predatory behavior because they're scared of reprisal, that's a net good. Or of course, the suggestion that I'm more worried about the killing of one CEO than a system

that kills tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people a year. I suppose there's something appealing about these kinds of arguments. They're not entirely unlike arguments I've made in the past, like that we should be prosecuting more corrupt presidents and members of Congress, not fewer. Stability of the system be damned.

The obvious difference though, is that when I made those arguments, they came from a place of demanding accountability. Insisting that the system do a better job rooting out corruption and evil, not cheering extrajudicial violence on the streets. To put it differently, if you are hoping for our rich corporate overlords to live in fear of expedited, unanswerable, and unexpected punishment, then you are necessarily hoping for us common folk to start delivering that punishment. That requires us to be the arbiters of who is good and who

is evil. The left might consider how long it will be until abortion providing doctors or trans activists or democratic politicians start being mowed down in the street in the name of striking fear into evildoers. If that's the world you want to live in, I strongly suggest signing off the internet and going to spend some time outside. I want to be clear that I am consciously not joining

the chorus celebrating the purported message sent to major corporate health insurers. I say purported here because crucially, we still don't know the motive of the purported message sent to major corporate health insurers. I say purported here because crucially we still don't know the motive of the shooter, even though I've had plenty of reason to do so. My own frustrating health issues have in the past sent me down the rabbit hole of insanity that is our healthcare infrastructure, full of denials and never-ending phone calls and exorbitant prices and inexplicably inhumane treatment from insurers. I've seen it happen to the people I love too.

During my mother's second bout of breast cancer, her doctors informed her that her body was likely to reject the chemotherapy treatment. She had gotten a similar treatment two decades before and it was common for patients' bodies to reject the treatment the second time. The oncologists had a backup plan, but my mom's insurance wouldn't cover it unless they tried the chemotherapy first.

This process, we were told, might be unpleasant. I was with her at the appointment, playing cards while the chemo began. A few minutes into the treatment, things seemed to be going well, and for a brief moment, we thought she might be one of the lucky ones. Then I noticed her chest turning bright red

with a flush running up toward her throat. Suddenly her mouth was open, but she couldn't speak. we thought she might be one of the lucky ones. Then I noticed her chest turning bright red with a flush running up toward her throat. Suddenly her mouth was open but she couldn't speak, only choking out and I can't breathe. I yelled for help and stood back out of my chair as she was swarmed by nurses like in some kind of horror movie. They ripped out her IVs, started injecting her with steroids, and held her head back so she couldn't choke to death. It took minutes for the situation to resolve and my mom and I were fully traumatized by the whole experience. Thankfully, the attentive medical staff was able to save her, but she easily could have had a blood pressure spike or stroked out right there in the chair. Our system, in effect, had to torture her so she could get coverage. And we were lucky. My mom is in good health, even after

beating breast cancer a third time and has, thank God, gotten incredible care throughout her life despite the sometimes exorbitant and infuriating cause. Many other people aren't so lucky. I can only imagine the pain, frustration, or anger I might have felt if my mom's story ended differently. I tried to hold that perspective as I watched the alarming response to Thompson's death last week. Shockingly, there's a lot we still don't know about this entire story. While a scary number of people seem to be celebrating or gleefully cheering on the shooter's escape, we know next to nothing about who he is or his motivation. Was he or a family member a patient with UnitedHealthcare Insurance?

Did he work at UnitedHealthcare? Did he know Thompson personally? Did he even kill the right person or intend to target Thompson intentionally? He was, after all, waiting outside a healthcare conference. Could there be another explanation altogether? None of this is known to us, yet we're all seemingly comfortable to jump to conclusions. Whatever details emerge, one thing will remain true. Improving our healthcare system and our society more broadly is not going to start by shooting corporate leaders in the back. It's going to take fastidious work from consumer advocates,

legislators, and corporations. It'll require grassroots movement and political pressure. It will happen slowly, deliberately, with a checkered history of wins and losses. That is always how this goes, and anyone convincing you otherwise is selling snake oil. Even less discussed these days is that a majority of Americans are actually satisfied with their own personal healthcare's quality and coverage, which majorities rate positively. In other words, people seem to simultaneously hate the system, perhaps due in part to the narrative building around things like Thompson's death

while being satisfied with their own care. I'm not sure how to connect those dots, but I do know it's a sign there are plenty of things working well that we can build off of, so long as we choose a path better than the one we appear to be on now. All right, that is it for my take. Today's pod is a little bit longer than usual, so we're going to skip our listener

question and I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the podcast. I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. We'll be right back after this quick break. We'll be right back after this quick break. Timothy Chalamet reinvents himself again as Bob Dylan in A Complete Unknown, a riveting portrayal of the legendary artist's meteoric rise and groundbreaking journey. Witness the untamed spirit of a musical pioneer brought to life.

From James Mangold, the visionary director of Walk the Line and Logan, this powerful film celebrates the courage to create and the legacy of an icon who redefined music forever. Watch the trailer now and get your tickets for a story that inspired generations. A Complete Unknown, only in theaters December 25th. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which has nearly doubled the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor

about getting a flu shot. Consider Flu-Celvax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. Last week, North Carolina's Republican controlled

state Senate voted to override Democratic Governor Roy Cooper's veto of a bill that would strip power from several prominent Democrats who will take statewide office in 2025. The bill passed during a lame duck session after the election, which was marketed primarily as an aid package for Hurricane Helene victims, but Governor Cooper accused lawmakers of disguising its true intent. The bill includes provisions that would shift appointment power for the state board of elections from the governor, who will be a Democrat in 2025, to the state auditor, who will be

a Republican. Additionally, it will bar the attorney general, who will be a Democrat, from taking legal positions opposed by the General Assembly in litigation challenging a given law's validity. The state's incoming Democratic superintendent of Public Instruction would also lose power to appeal decisions by a state board that reviews charter school applications. The bill now returns to the state house, where Republicans have a slim, veto-proof majority. The Associated Press has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright next up is our numbers section.

The approximate number of UnitedHealthcare customers in 2023 is 52 million. UnitedHealthcare's revenues in 2023 was 281 billion. The percentage of insured U.S. adults who describe themselves as in good health who rate their insurance provider positively is 84%, according to a 2023 KFF survey. The percentage of insured U.S. adults who describe themselves as in fair or poor health who rate their insurance provider positively is 68%. The percentage of all insured adults who reported a problem with their health care insurance in the past 12 months is 58%. The percentage of insured adults who say their health insurance denied or delayed prior approval for needed care in the past 12 months is 16%. The total number of in-network claims denied by Affordable Care Act Marketplace insurers in 2021 was 48.3 million. And the percentage of those denied claims

that consumers appealed through their insurers internal appeals process is 0.2%. All right, and last but not least, our have a nice day story. Lynn Story's car frequently broke down, but that didn't prevent her from using it to serve others. The neighborhood app Nextdoor connected Story to community members who needed rides, like

April Goodwin, who needed help getting to medical appointments, and Kevin Horrigan, who needed assistance getting to work. After hearing about the service, Story had been rendering in her community. Car dealer David Kelleher stepped in, arranging for Story to receive a new car. CBS News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright everybody, that is link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership. You can also go

to tanglemedia.supercast.com to sign up for a premium podcast membership, which gets you ad free daily podcasts, Friday editions, Sunday editions, interviews, bonus content, and so much more. We'll be right back here tomorrow. Isaac and the rest of the crew. This is John Maul signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by Dima Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will K. Back, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bikova, who is also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website at reedtangle.com. That's reedtangle.com. We're special guests, Polyphia and Wisp, live in Toronto, Roger Stadium, September 3rd.

Get tickets this Friday at noon at LiveNation.com. System of a Down and Deftones. Roger Stadium, September 3rd. For more, visit Systemofadown.com. Timothy Chalamet transforms into the enigmatic Bob Dylan in A Complete Unknown, a cinematic captivation that explores the tumultuous life of a musical icon. This mesmerizing film captures the essence of Dylan's rebellious spirit and his relentless pursuit of artistic innovation.

From the director of acclaimed films, Walk the Line and Logan, this extraordinary cinematic experience is a testament to the power of music and the enduring legacy of a true visionary. Watch the trailer now and secure your tickets for a truly unforgettable cinematic experience. A complete unknown. Only in theaters December 25th. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which has nearly doubled the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider Flu Cellvax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at

flucellvax.ca