Tangle - The Kevin McCarthy tapes.

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) is considered the favorite to become speaker of the House, replacing Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), if Republicans take control of Congress in the midterms. The position, along with Senate Majority Leader, is one of the two most powerful positions in Congress. Plus, a listener question about unaffiliated members of Congress.You can read today's podcast here.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and produced by Trevor Eichhorn. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I am your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the Kevin McCarthy tapes, some rather explosive reporting from the New York Times, and a book that's coming out and what it means for the Republican Party and the leadership. We also have a pretty interesting reader question that I'm excited to talk about. But as always, before we jump in, we'll start off with some quick hits.

First up, Vice President Kamala Harris and Senators Chris Murphy and Ron Wyden tested positive for COVID-19. Number two, United States Secretary General Antonio Guterres visited Russian President Vladimir Putin and urged him to end the war in Ukraine. Ukraine. Number three, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments over the so-called Remain in Mexico policy, which requires migrants to stay in Mexico while their asylum claims are considered in the U.S. Number four, the first all-electric Ford F-150 Lightning pickup truck came off the assembly line on Tuesday. There are already 200,000 pre-orders for the electric version of Ford's flagship vehicle. Number five, Russia cut off natural gas supplies to Poland and Bulgaria as punishment for their support of Ukraine. Well, there's more leaked audio of House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy suggesting that a Republican was concerned that comments made by some members of his own party, the Republicans, could stir up more violence following the January 6th riots.

New audio reported by The New York Times appears to show House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy expressing concern about rhetoric from members of his own party in the days following the Capitol attack. You know what? He's a guy that said some bad about me. He did. But you know what? Every one of the others did also. House minority leader Kevin McCarthy, the Republican from California, is considered the favorite to become Speaker of the House, replacing Representative Nancy Pelosi, the Democrat from California, if Republicans take control of Congress in the midterms. The position, along with Senate Majority Leader, is one of the two most powerful positions in Congress. As such, the extent of McCarthy's loyalty to former President Donald Trump, the de facto leader of the Republican Party, is one of the big questions about his potential rise. Last week, that loyalty was questioned when New York Times reported that McCarthy and then-Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell had told associates they believed President Trump was responsible for inciting the deadly riots of January 6th and vowed to drive him from politics. McCarthy immediately denied the report, calling it, quote, totally false and wrong, end quote.

But a few days later, the New York Times released a recording of his comments, leaving no doubt about what he'd said, which was that he was going to advise the president to resign. Publicly, McCarthy had initially criticized Trump for his actions on the day of January 6th, but he's since rebuilt his relationship with the former president. However, this was the first evidence that privately he was game planning with other Republicans on how to drive Trump from the presidency weeks before the inauguration of Joe Biden. I've had it with this guy. What he did is unacceptable, McCarthy has heard saying in the recording. Nobody can defend it and nobody should defend it. We know it'll pass the House, McCarthy said about impeachment proceedings. I think there's a chance it'll pass the Senate. The only discussion

I would have with Mr. Trump is that I think this will pass and it would be my recommendation that you should resign. Trump has since told the Wall Street Journal that he was not upset with McCarthy about the comments. He made a call. I heard the call. I didn't like the call, Trump said, but almost immediately, as you know, because he came here and we took a picture right there, you know, the support was very strong, end quote. The picture Trump was referring to was a visit McCarthy made to Mar-a-Lago shortly after Biden was inaugurated, which was widely viewed as an endorsement of Trump as the leader of the party heading into the future. I think it's all a big compliment, frankly, Trump said of Republicans who criticized him

after January 6th and then later expressed support for him. They realized they were wrong and supported me. The recording of Republican lawmakers discussing Trump is believed to be part of a larger trove of audio and documents that continue to be leaked to the press as Congress investigates the days leading up to January 6th. CNN also obtained over 2,000 text messages from former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, which were turned over as part of the January 6th Commission's investigation into the events that led up to the riots at the Capitol that day. into the events that led up to the riots at the Capitol that day. McCarthy's tape comments and his subsequent recommitment to Trump, along with the text, have set off a debate about where the power centers of the GOP actually stand and who is really in control of the party. In a moment, we're going to hear some opinions from the left and the right about McCarthy and Trump, and then my take. take. Hey everyone, it's Isaac here. So as I mentioned not long ago, we are trying to start experimenting with ads on the podcast. And in order to do that, we are choosing things that

we like here at Tangle. We're choosing real, genuine recommendations here at Tangle as our advertisement partners. And we want to start off with a great new podcast called Let's Find Common Ground. This podcast is built in the ethos of Tangle. It is a space where you'll hear remarkable, innovative people who are working to bridge differences and reach an understanding with those who see the world a little differently than they do. You'll hear from politicians, scholars, activists, journalists, and just everyday people sharing personal stories about finding common ground on race, the environment, criminal justice reform, and many other controversial topics. New podcast episodes are released every two weeks, and you can join hosts Richard Davies and Ashley Milne-Tight

for Let's Find Common Ground. You can find episodes at commongroundcommittee.org slash podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. That's commongroundcommittee.org slash podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. That's commongroundcommittee.org slash podcast. First up, we'll start with what the left is saying. The left criticizes McCarthy's brazen lie, saying Republicans are stooping to new lows to please Trump. Many point to the absurdity of him being ashamed of having the right moral position. Others warn Democrats should think twice about tanking McCarthy's speakership. In the Washington Post, Greg Sargent called it an abysmal new low. House Minority Leader

Kevin McCarthy spent the weekend phoning Republicans to do damage control, Punchbowl News reports, after we learned that he seriously considered calling on Donald Trump to resign the presidency after the mob assault on the Capitol, Sargent said. What offense has the California Republican atoned for in these calls? McCarthy apparently wants Republicans to know Trump has forgiven him for merely entertaining the passing thought that inciting a violent deadly coup attempt might, might, be an offense that merits resignation. As Punchbowl News put it, in these calls, McCarthy has been making sure Republicans know he's good with Trump. This comes after Trump clarified that their relationship has not been damaged by the leak audio showing McCarthy discussing Trump's potential resignation, a possibility that

had surely given McCarthy night sweat, Sargent said. For Republicans in the through-the-looking-glass world of Trumpified GOP politics, the big problem here is not that McCarthy privately concluded that Trump had committed offenses so grave that he may perhaps should resign, then spent the next year minimizing those offenses and helping cover them up. Rather, it's that McCarthy privately reached that conclusion in the first place. McCarthy's transgression is that he originally had this thought. Once he has atoned sufficiently for this, the damage will pass. In Slate, Ben Mathis Lilly sarcastically noted that McCarthy was This was a natural response on a personal level since all of them, members of Congress, had been inside the Capitol when a mob assaulted and pushed past a line of police officers, then smashed through windows and doors and into the building after listening to Trump give a speech about overturning the

results of the election, Mathis Lilley said. Some members of the crowd shouted that they wanted to kill the Republican vice president, and one, who was part of a group that was trying to break through internal barricades into an area where members of Congress were being evacuated, was shot to death by security. It was a frightening experience and would not have taken place if Trump had handled his election loss differently. But then the spin machine started spinning. Trump insisted that he didn't bear any responsibility for what had happened and continued to claim the election was stolen from him. Hardline members of the Republican caucus and right-wing press said the violence had been instigated by the deep state or overblown by the liberal media, then pivoted to an argument that the individuals involved were patriots being persecuted for participating in political discourse. Current polls show that while Republican voters do not generally approve of the riot per se,

large majorities agree that the election was stolen and don't think January 6th needs to be investigated. Trump also retains high approval within the party and is its leading candidate for the 2024 nomination. Thus, most of the figures who initially felt that Trump deserved to be forced out of public life because of the deadly riot have come around to an opposite position. Eric Weerson said Democrats reveling in McCarthy's lies, hoping his bid to become speaker is derailed, should be careful what they wish for. McCarthy's potential demise isn't necessarily a good thing when considering the alternative, Weerson wrote. Yes, his behavior

is despicable and cowardly, but here's the thing. In the rare moment of candor in which a leaked recording has permitted the world to listen in, McCarthy at least seemed to have the ability to recognize when something is way off. At least he exhibited some modicum of human sensibility, enabling him to recognize gross injustice and culpability, if only to quickly sweep it under the rug for political expediency. Make no mistake about it, what's heard on the tape does not make McCarthy the good guy, and him telling reporters a day after the audio is released that he never thought the president should resign underscores that. But it could be a lot worse, Weerson said. On the one hand, we have a peace-laminist, prevaricating, and somewhat

feeble-minded leader who cows to Trump. But if these tapes ultimately take McCarthy out of the running for House GOP leader, we may be left with something entirely worse. We might be forced to reckon with a ruthless leader like Representative Jim Jordan as the head of the House GOP, the same congressman who has refused to cooperate with the House committee investigating the January 6th attack and who forwarded a text message to then-White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, forcefully pushing an unproven legal theory to try to get then-Vice President Mike Pence to object to certifying the 2020 election results. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to the right's take.

The right is worried that the fight over who will be Speaker of the House will divide the party. Some say the only thing that matters is what Trump and the base think of McCarthy. Others argue that Republicans should stand up and say what they actually think about Trump and January 6th. Matt Purple said the GOP has a leadership problem in the House. Politicians fib all the time, of course, but McCarthy's mendacity seems like the central point on a Venn diagram between dumb and self-abasing. It also put him in a terrible position. Magus sorts are furious that McCarthy betrayed Trump. Rank-and-file Republicans are unsettled he handled this so poorly, Purple wrote. More concerning is that this is not McCarthy's first dunk in the tank.

Back in 2015, he decided to blur it out on national TV that the Republican-established committee to investigate the Benghazi attack was meant to discredit Hillary Clinton. This was hardly news. There were uncontacted tribes in the rainforest that understood the committee's real purpose was to hurt Hillary's election chances. But for the Republican House leader to say so out loud was a massive blunder, one almost impossible to imagine coming from Nancy Pelosi. His latest unforced error may yet be forgotten if Republicans win big in November, Purple said, but there's a lesson to be learned here too, one that should have Republicans looking unironically across the aisle.

Back in 2019, the squad, that Twitter-positive quartet of progressives, revolted against Democratic leadership. What Pelosi did next was instructive. She absolutely spit-roasted AOC and friends, isolating them as the only Democrat dissenters on a key immigration vote, and then demeaning them as for people who don't have any following. If the Republican Party wants to govern after 2022, they're going to need to exercise power effectively. Mitch McConnell, for all his faults, is comfortable doing that. We'll see whether a certain other nameplate remains on an office door. W. James Antle III said what happens to McCarthy is entirely up to Trump and his base. The resistance

and never Trump figures blaring for the thousandth time that the GOP leaders are cowards who tremble before the 45th will not decide McCarthy's fate, Antle the third said. Trump and the MAGA base will. Nearly everyone who sees in McCarthy's comments denial and the subsequent proof he took a harder line on Trump's January 6th conduct in private than in public, a horrific betrayal of American democracy, already thought that before the audio of that Republican leadership call leaked. The only thing that can change is whether the ex-president, his supporters, and rank-and-file Republicans continue to view McCarthy, who is poised to become the next Speaker of the House after the midterm elections, as a trustworthy figure. McCarthy's comments were

a snapshot in time, representative of many in the Republican leadership, he added. They were made in a conversation with Representative Liz Cheney, who is still the third-ranking House Republican, four days after the attack on the Capitol. And the resignation talk was couched in the possibility of a successful impeachment, like Goldwater's 1974 White House visit with Richard Nixon. McCarthy didn't end up having to call to request Trump's resignation. He did not vote for impeachment. He later went down the Mar-a-Lago to patch things up. It was another Republican leader, Senator Mitch McConnell, Trump's most powerful intra-party rival, who ensured that there would be no conviction by not holding a Senate trial while Republicans still controlled the chamber and then opposing post-presidential impeachment afterward.

This too shall pass if Trump lets it. Gerard Baker said Republicans in Congress should be honest that their fervent wish is that Trump goes away quietly. With the exception of a few demented types in Congress and the media, they, the top Republican brass, don't believe that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. They don't think that the January 6th riot was a legitimate act of protest or the work of federal agent provocateurs, Baker wrote. They fear that a Trump-led Republican ticket presents them with a lose-lose proposition in 2024. Either he continues his well-established pattern of losing the party elections, the 2018 midterms, the 2020 general election, the 2021 Georgia Senate runoffs, or he wins and condemns

them to another, potentially even more chaotic four years of his distinctive leadership. But the Republican Party is too important a political institution to continue to be a vehicle for this grand deception, Baker said. The mess the other party has made of the country in 15 months is too extensive to risk the chance of further damage. There are too many capable Republicans who uphold high conservative ideals while embracing the populist values that are energizing the party's base, understand the need to abide by the U.S. Constitution Constitution and believe in the importance of a Republican victory more than the satisfaction of their own self-grievance, for it to be willingly shackled once again to the vanities of a cynical opportunist. Will someone speak that truth at least?

Alright, that is it for the rights take, which brings us to my take. Politicians lie. It's rare that we catch them in it so brazenly, but it's true across political parties and every kind of government. I would love to live in a country where getting caught lying so brazenly would end your political career, but unfortunately most Americans are numb to it by now. Most of us seem so inert to this that we scoff at all the people with blinders on who are shocked or surprised. Maybe they are the ones seen clearly though. Kevin McCarthy lied. He lies a lot. He is, by sheer force of his position, incapable of not lying. He has to pretend that the anti-Trump, pro-war, old-school Bush-era

conservatism of Liz Cheney can coexist with Madison Cawthorn's scorched earth, tweet through it, Republicans are all involved in sex drug parties' congressional membership. They can't, of course. No more than the squad and Joe Manchin can coexist. Eventually, one faction of the Republican Party or the other is going to win and take the power center back. One could make a good argument the fight is already over, with Trump still lording over every little thing, but the 2022 and 2024 elections will be the real test. McCarthy is actually a fabulous case study of the current Republican Party, given that his duplicitousness is a necessary prerequisite to survival.

However you feel about moderate Republicans, the rhinos, Republicans in name only, Trump, or the more bombastic wing of the party that includes Cawthorn, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Lauren Boebert, there are a few things that are true. Most Republicans in Congress hope Trump doesn't run in 2024. It's the worst kept secret in DC, and every reporter and strategist and staff member has heard the way they talk about him when the recorders aren't on. They believe his presence, and the fervent dislike of him from moderate American voters, is just about the only thing that can rescue Biden and Democrats from landslide losses. And they are probably right.

Most Republican politicians fear Trump. They know that with a statement, a rally, or a Fox News interview, he can destroy their careers. They understand that however they feel about him, Trump has the most important thing they don't, the trust and love of the Republican base. Most Republicans in Congress also have their own agendas, the desires of the people they represent in their districts or states, their pet projects, their own ambitions for leadership or the White House, all of these interests need to be taken into account to understand the tack Republicans take with their de facto leader. Based on everything Trump has said and done since these revelations, I see no reason not to expect McCarthy to end up as Speaker anyway,

if or when Republicans take control of Congress. In the immediate term, the only thing Republicans can concern themselves with is ensuring a 2022 midterm sweep. And to do that, they'll need to put on brave faces and muster a modicum of unity, all while walking the line with Trump. Cross him and you'll get trashed, primaried, or worse. Trump has proven he's willing to tank fellow Republicans even if it means a Democrat takes their place just to settle a score. So until a majority in the House and Senate are secure, every Republican will fall in line. But the lead-up to 2024 may be a different story. In the meantime, it's worth remembering that McCarthy can't be trusted. Not that we needed

any further confirmation about him or most of his colleagues, but now we have it. He was right, of course, when he said Trump's position in the party was no longer tenable. It's also not tenable to suggest Trump bears no responsibility for January 6th, nor is it tenable to suggest the election was stolen. And it certainly isn't tenable to suggest that Trump is the best candidate to unseat Biden in 2024 should he run again. McCarthy and his ilk, despite knowing better, will say otherwise anyway until they get what they want, which in his case is the speaker's gavel. But at least we'll know for certain that it's nonsense along the way. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered.

This one is from Mary Jane in Grass Valley, California. She said, could a person with no party affiliation be effective in Congress? While many people seem fed up with the partisan politics, it also seems like a no party candidate would need to convince voters that they can transcend the perceived binary framing for most political strategies and actually get things done from such a position. So this is a very interesting thought experiment, and I think it really depends on what you mean by effective. For starters, it should be pointed out that we do have two independents in the Senate now, technically speaking, Bernie Sanders and Angus King. Both caucus with Democrats, so they aren't really no party affiliated, but it seems worth noting anyway.

Funny enough, if by effective you mean driving the legislative agenda, I think the best time for this would have been now or in the last four or five years. Given that both Trump and Biden have operated with a 50-50 split in the Senate, a no-party affiliated senator would have had outsized power to drive the direction of Congress. Shoot, just look at the impact Manchin has had, and he's a Democrat. The other side of that, though, is the fact that the current Senate makeup is probably the only time a no-party affiliated member would really be that effective. If, say, there were 53 Republicans in the Senate and 46 Democrats and

one no-party-affiliated member, that no-party-affiliated member would be far more likely to simply get left out of the party than have any serious impact moving legislation or driving the party agenda. If you're measuring effectiveness by public trust, though, that might be a different matter. If an unaffiliated member of Congress had tangle politics, one who regularly landed outside each party's lines on an issue, I think that person could become a rock star with the American electorate. I'm not sure how much they'd actually get done in Congress, but I definitely think their popularity and their trust would outstrip other members. All right, that is it for your reader question, which brings us to our story

that matters for the day. The CDC released data from blood tests showing that the majority of Americans have now been infected with COVID-19. That includes three in four children. The overall U.S. seroprevalence, or the prevalence of a disease in a population, went from 33.5% to 57.7% from December 2021 to February 2022, Axios reported. The findings confirmed the high rates of infection from the Omicron variant, as well as suspicions from publicly available testing data that much of the U.S. has already had the virus at least once. All right, next up is our numbers section. First up, Donald Trump's approval rating among

Republicans in Pennsylvania in January of 2021 was 72%. Trump's approval rating among Republicans in Pennsylvania today is 77%. The percentage of Republicans who said Biden did not legitimately win the election in the first Economist YouGov poll conducted after the race ended was 82%. The percentage of Republicans who said Biden did not legitimately win the election now in an April poll is 73%. The percentage of Republican voters who said they have a very or somewhat favorable opinion of Kevin McCarthy is 46%. The percentage of Republican voters who said they have a very or somewhat unfavorable opinion of McCarthy is 27%. The percentage of Republican voters who said they didn't know was also 27%.

The percentage of Republican voters who said they didn't know was also 27%. All right, that is it for our numbers section. And last but not least is our have a nice day section. This story is from our friends at Good Good Good, a positive news website telling true and uplifting stories. We're giving them some plugs this week because I know their founder and they're awesome and they're shouting us out in their newsletter and I wanted to give them some love back. They have a great story today about Sweden where drones are now beating ambulances to the scene and saving lives. In one recent example, a 71-year-old man collapsed while shoveling his

driveway. A passerby called 911 and within three minutes before the ambulance arrived, a drone was hovering overhead and dropped down an automated external defibrillator, an AED, that included instructions on how to use it. Ali was able to quickly apply the device and revive the man who had gone into cardiac arrest. Sweden has piloted the AED deliveries and found that 95% arrived safely and quickly, which has other countries and companies hopping on board. Good Good Good has the story. There's a link to it in today's newsletter. All right, everybody, that is it for the podcast. Before you go,

give us some love. ReadTangle.com slash membership. With your subscription, we can continue to grow, expand the podcast, do more work, hire more people, reach more people. It is super, super important that you subscribe. ReadTangle.com slash membership. Please go give us some love. You can drop a five-star rating anywhere you rate podcasts. And as always, either way, we'll be right back here same time tomorrow. Peace. Our newsletter is written by Isaac Saul, edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle's social media manager, Magdalena Bokova, who also helped create our logo.

The podcast is edited by Trevor Eichhorn, and music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more from Tangle, subscribe to our newsletter or check out our content archives at www.readtangle.com. Bye.