Tangle - The Kyle Rittenhouse verdict.

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

On Friday, Kyle Rittenhouse was found not guilty on all charges related to his shooting of three people during riots in Kenosha, Wisconsin last year. The jury deliberated for three and a half days and found Rittenhouse not guilty on all five counts, including charges of reckless homicide in the death of Joseph Rosenbaum, 36, and intentional homicide in the death of Anthony Huber, 26.As the not guilty verdicts were read, Rittenhouse collapsed into the arms of his lawyer. Experts largely expected the outcome after the judge in the case, Bruce Schroeder, granted a defense motion to drop a gun possession charge against Rittenhouse, which was viewed as the most likely charge to stick.You can read today's newsletter here.Our newsletter is written by Isaac Saul, edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.The podcast is edited by Trevor Eichhorn, and music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. This is an ABC News special report. I'm with Johnson in New York, and we're coming on the air because the jury in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial has reached a verdict. And thank you so much for joining us. We're going to begin with new reaction tonight to the verdict in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial has reached a verdict. And thank you so much for joining us. We're gonna begin with new reaction tonight to the verdict in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. A jury in Wisconsin today found the 18-year-old

from Illinois not guilty on all charges. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I am your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's show, we are going to be

discussing the Kyle Rittenhouse verdict. You might remember a couple weeks ago, we gave you a pretty lengthy explainer and breakdown of what happened in Kenosha, Wisconsin on the night Rittenhouse shot three people. We have now got a verdict in front of us to look at with some arguments from the right and left about what happened, and we're going to touch on all of that. Before we jump in, though, I first want to give a hearty welcome to hundreds of new followers who are now in the Tangle family. After Tesla founder Elon Musk asked people on Twitter for a source of reliable news. Many, many, many Tangle readers were kind enough to respond to him and recommend us.

And those comments got a lot of attention and actually brought in a lot of new subscribers. So I want to thank all of you who did that and put the word out for us. It means a lot. As I always say, you are the number one way that we spread the word. So thank you. All right. First up, as always, we'll start with the quick hits for the day. Number one, at least five people were killed after a vehicle plowed into a Christmas parade in Wisconsin last night.

Number two, the FDA cleared the Pfizer and Moderna booster shots for all adults regardless of which vaccine they got initially. Number three, Vice President Kamala Harris became the first woman to ever hold presidential power in U.S. history after serving for 85 minutes while President Biden was under anesthesia for a colonoscopy. Number four, protesters in New York City, Austria, Switzerland, Croatia, Italy, Northern Ireland, and the Netherlands hit the streets over the weekend to voice opposition to vaccine mandates and COVID-19 restrictions. Number five, the House of Representatives passed President Biden's $1.75 trillion social spending and climate change plan, which now goes to the Senate, where it will be rewritten and debated. The final vote was 220 to 213, with no Republicans and one Democrat voting in opposition to the bill.

All right, that brings us to today's main topic, the Rittenhouse verdict. On Friday, Kyle Rittenhouse was found not guilty on all charges related to his shooting of three people during riots in Kenosha, Wisconsin last year. The jury deliberated for three and a half days and found Rittenhouse not guilty on all five counts, including charges of homicide in the death of Joseph Rosenbaum, 36, and intentional homicide in the death of Anthony Huber, 26. As the not guilty verdicts were read, Rittenhouse collapsed into the arms of his lawyer. Experts largely expected the outcome after the judge in the case, Bruce Schroeder, granted a defense motion to drop a gun possession charge against Rittenhouse. That charge was viewed as the most likely of any to stick.

The misdemeanor charge carried a maximum sentence of nine months in prison, but Wisconsin law has an exception that allows minors to carry shotguns and rifles as long as they're not short-barreled. When the prosecution conceded that Rittenhouse's rifle barrel was longer than 16 inches, the minimum length allowed under the statute, Judge Schroeder granted the defense motion to toss out the charge. On November 11th, we published a lengthy explainer about what happened on that night in Kenosha, as well as what had happened during Rittenhouse's testimony and the charges he faced. If you have not read that, I encourage you to do so or go back and listen to the podcast

version of it, which you can find in our list of episodes. Now we're going to take a look at some reactions to the verdict from the right and the left, and then my take. All right, first up, we'll start with what the right is saying. The right has said that the jury was unanimous because the evidence made clear Rittenhouse acted in self-defense. The prosecution did a poor job during the trial and overcharged in the case thanks to public pressure. And Americans are woefully ignorant of the details of the case because of misleading and biased media coverage. The Wall Street Journal editorial board said the verdict shows that when presented deliberately with evidence and forced to reason with one another, Americans can still agree on basic facts. And the facts presented at

trial make it very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Rittenhouse did not act in self-defense when he shot three men, killing two, who attacked him amid an anarchic scene in downtown Kenosha last summer when he was 17. The encounters were captured on video. Joseph Rosenbaum sprinted after Mr. Rittenhouse, who ran away across a parking lot. Rosenbaum then lunged toward the rifle before Mr. Rittenhouse, who was trapped against parked cars, fired. According to Mr. Rittenhouse and another witness, Rosenbaum had threatened to kill the teenager earlier in the night. As Mr. Rittenhouse tried to flee toward police lines, he was pursued by a mob, the board added.

The teenager eventually fell down and fired when one man tried to kick him in the face, another tried to hit him with a skateboard, and another approached him and raised a pistol. The prosecution said Mr. Rittenhouse was a chaos tourist who provoked the violence. Yet, the teenager worked as a lifeguard in Kenosha where his father lived. However bad his judgment in showing up with a weapon he didn't own at a riot, his intention was to stand guard in front of businesses and administer first aid. In USA Today, Jonathan Turley said the result was hardly a surprise to many of us who watched the trial rather than the media coverage. From the outset, politicians and

media figures insisted that this was a case of murders committed by a white supremacist, Turley said. Then-presidential candidate Joe Biden labeled Rittenhouse a white supremacist in a tweet showing his photo and demanded to know why then-President Donald Trump did not disavow white supremacists. Much of the media followed suit with an echo chamber of coverage that led some people to believe that these were essentially executions on the streets of Kenosha. The pressure clearly had an impact on the prosecution, which overcharged Rittenhouse, including with a count that was invalid. The case began to fall apart as the prosecution called its witnesses who contradicted the core elements of these charges. What happened next was even more chilling, Turley concluded. Faced with a collapsing case in court, many of

the same media outlets struck out. Faced with a collapsing case in court, many of the same media outlets struck out at the judge, the jury, and the legal system. MSNBC host Tiffany Cross advocated for the judge's removal. Rittenhouse was mocked for his male white tears on national television. Georgetown law professor Paul Butler called the trial a white privilege on steroids. By misrepresenting and not reporting key facts, media increased the likelihood that the acquittal will be read as confirmation of a racist trial in a racist justice system. In American Greatness, Roger Kimball said a horrible miscarriage of justice had already been perpetrated. Rittenhouse had already been tried and convicted in the Court of Public Opinion, he wrote. One swamp entity, GoFundMe, canceled a campaign to raise funds to pay for Rittenhouse had already been tried and convicted in the Court of Public Opinion, he wrote. One swamp entity, GoFundMe, canceled a campaign to raise funds to pay for Rittenhouse's bail and legal fees because, according to CEO Tim Cadigan, the company doesn't support people charged with violent crimes.

What about the presumption of innocence? GoFundMe said nothing about that. Remember, the process is the punishment, Kimball said. Rittenhouse was charged in order to enact a bill of political theater. He was a convenient white boy perfect for the role of Fall Guy. In this sense, as Julie Kelly put it, the entire episode is the opposite of a win for American justice. On the contrary, although a guilty verdict would have been obscene, his very trial was a horrific example of government prosecutors bringing bogus charges for political reasons. Who knows what will

happen now? There is a lot of talk of Rittenhouse suing various people and entities for defamation. I hope he does. All right, so that's it for what the right is saying. That brings us to the left's take. So the left says that the outcome is a reminder that our gun laws are too loose and that the judge in this case had biases. It's another example of a white vigilante becoming a hero on the right, even though what he did was wrong.

Rittenhouse should have been treated like an active shooter, but he wasn't. In CNN, Jennifer Rogers argued that the jury's decision was reasonable and that what we need to change is Wisconsin's open carry law. Without question, Rittenhouse did not have to be in Kenosha with his weapons strapped across his body as he ran around the streets in what was clearly an unpredictable and ultimately dangerous situation, Rogers said. But in Wisconsin, that initial decision, as poor a decision as it was, does not constitute a crime, and the jury found his later actions justified. Those of us who don't

want to have to worry about whether people like Kyle Rittenhouse will continue to brandish guns at public gatherings, thereby greatly increasing the danger of violence, should direct our energy toward changing the open carry laws in Wisconsin. Public sentiment after an episode that is viewed as unfair, and there are plenty of people who are incensed that Rittenhouse went free because of a self-defense claim when he placed himself in the situation in the first place, can spark change. For example, in Georgia, after the shooting of Ahmaud Arbery, the legislator repealed the citizen's arrest law that Arbery's alleged killer and his co-defendants are relying on for their defense. If public

concern about Rittenhouse's conduct and its results leads to a re-examination of Wisconsin's gun laws, that will be one positive thing to come of this tragic episode. In the New York Times, Charles Blow said Rittenhouse is another in a long line of white vigilantes. One can argue about the particulars of the case, about the strength of the defense and the ham-handedness of the prosecution, and about the outrageously unorthodox manner of the case about the strength of the defense and the ham-handedness of the prosecution, and about the outrageously unorthodox manner of the judge, Blow said. But perhaps the most problematic aspect of this case was that it represented yet another data point in the long history of some parts of the right valorizing white vigilantes who use violence against people of color and their white allies. The idea of taking the law into one's own hands not only to

protect public order, but also to protect the order, is central to the maintenance of white power and its structures. The killers of Ahmaud Arbery on trial in Georgia are also vigilantes, Blow said. You could argue that our rapidly expanding gun laws, from stand-your-ground laws to laws that allow for open or concealed carry, encourage and protect vigilantes. It goes without saying how ominous this all is for our country, or to turn the argument around, how intransient the country is on this issue of empowering white men to become vigilantes themselves. Black vigilantes are not celebrated but feared, condemned, and constrained by the law. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu,

a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. In Slate, Jeremy Stahl said Rittenhouse's lawyers successfully redefined what an active shooter is. In the final hours of the trial, the prosecution attempted to co-opt the language of the right and its popular pro-firearm motto that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. As the prosecution told it, Rosenbaum was the one reacting rather than provoking. He saw a man wielding a semi-automatic weapon and pointing it at someone he knew, which was backed up by video evidence, and then he tried to put a stop to it. Prosecutors pointed out that Rittenhouse did not stick around to surrender himself to

police, but instead continued to wander with his gun aimed at other protesters. Because Rittenhouse was an active shooter then, the prosecution could paint those who were seeking to disarm him, including Huber who attacked Rittenhouse with a skateboard and Grosskreutz who approached him with a gun, as heroes trying to save lives. The prosecution attempted to force the jury to decide. In a world where everyone is entitled to defend themselves, how can the victims of a shooting be classified as the assailants and the active shooter be classified as the one acting in self-defense, Stahlrup? The defense apparently won out by claiming Rittenhouse's shootings were all justified because he feared for his life during each attack, despite being the one attacking. All right, that is it for the left and the right's take, which brings us to my take.

So not a whole lot about my position has changed since I wrote about this case 11 days ago. Wisconsin's self-defense laws are commonplace across the U.S., even if Wisconsin's tilt a bit more toward favoring a defendant like Rittenhouse. Once someone says they are acting out of fear, even if those around them are too, the law requires definitive proof about intent from the prosecution to convict a defendant like Rittenhouse. It was always clear to anyone that watched the trial this prosecution was fighting an uphill battle. The media criticisms in this case are well-deserved, in so much as the public discourse I've seen tends to be totally detached from reality. Rittenhouse didn't live in Kenosha, sure, but he worked there, and his dad, grandma, cousins,

aunt, uncle, and best friend apparently lived there too. He was less of an out-of-towner than were many of the people protesting or rioting that night. The judge in the case is a bizarre character who did bizarre things throughout the trial. I certainly raised my eyebrows when his cell phone played what is ostensibly the Trump theme song in the middle of the trial. But some of the criticism also seemed undeserved. His rule to not allow the prosecution to describe the deceased as victims, for instance, is a longstanding rule and one I think is totally reasonable guideline for a trial that was exploring the answer to the very question of whether they were victims in the first place. In a different hypothetical, where this rule was applied to a black man being accused of assaulting a white woman, progressives would likely cheer the way it leveled the playing field. And for what it's worth, Judge Schroeder was

appointed twice by Democrats and is the longest serving state judge in Wisconsin. Common misunderstandings of the case, like the assumption that Rittenhouse shot black protesters or the charge that Rittenhouse illegally carried a gun across state lines, one that was accidentally perpetrated in this podcast just last week, all bolstered the argument of a botched job by the media and social media disinformation clouding the conversation. But it cuts both ways, too. Upon the verdict being handed down,

conservative commentators immediately speculated that Kenosha was going to burn to the ground and riots would break out across the country in response, something that decidedly did not even come close to happening and is almost certainly a product of right-wing media painting social justice protesters as violent. Instead, it was an entirely peaceful weekend with President Biden, the leader of the Democratic Party, insisting he stood by the jury's decision. The jury system works and we have to abide by it, he said, which is the right thing for a president to say. While making a martyr out of Rittenhouse, conservative media outlets have also taken cues from Judge Schroeder and turned their backs to the tangential evidence that Rittenhouse might not be such a stellar dude. The video of him wishing he had his AR-15 to start shooting people he suspected were shoplifters goes untalked about. His meetings with the Proud Boys, a group that celebrates political violence, goes untalked about. His trolling liberals with the OK poses and the free as F t-shirts. The video of him punching a girl from behind who was fighting his sister. None of it supports the image of a humble young hero washing graffiti off of walls created in right-wing echo chambers. Ultimately, this case

really seems to come down to the first shooting with Joseph Rosenbaum. If Rittenhouse was defending himself in that shooting, everything that comes after tracks. If you believe Rittenhouse initiated the violence when he didn't have to, then the people chasing him, pulling guns on him, or trying to hit him with their skateboards were simply hoping to stop an active shooter. Video evidence shows Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse, and witnesses say they heard Rosenbaum threaten his life earlier in the night. That alone always seemed like enough to bolster Rittenhouse's self-defense case, and it did. Yet, none of it feels great, or just, or good to me. The weapons charge was dropped, and because the law is one

giant murky contradiction, I'm not surprised at all. In fact, I predicted it in our initial newsletter about this case. In a vacuum, Rittenhouse walking free of any charges at all is enough to make me uncomfortable, even if the homicide charges were never going to stick. But when you add the context that he's being celebrated as a hero or could be paraded around at political conferences, let alone serve as an inspiration for other teenagers to pick up arms and go monitor street protests, it kind of makes my stomach turn. It just feels like another step forward in our increasingly volatile political world, one that becomes a bit more frightening every day. All right, that's it for my take. That brings us to our reader question for the day.

This one is from Damian in Asbury Park, New Jersey, who asks, are the Proud Boys actually a white nationalist organization? This is a good question. So it actually depends who you ask. In 2018, the FBI categorized them as an extreme organization with ties to white nationalists, which I think is a pretty fair description of what they are. But what a lot of people on the left don't know is the Proud Boys have a Cuban-American leader named Enrique Tarrio, as well as a contingent of Hispanic members. Without getting too much into the whole who can be racist or are certain Cubans white debate, I don't think any of that serves much of a purpose here. It's worth noting that the Proud Boys don't

even agree on what the Proud Boys are. In 2020, leaked messages showed Kyle Chapman, who leads the violent militant arm of the Proud Boys, wanting to stage a coup against Tarrio and rebrand the organization as explicitly anti-Semitic and white nationalist. Other Proud Boys leaders have denounced Chapman and said it was all BS. Regardless, the group is comprised of a bunch of violent clowns, plenty of whom have openly expressed their hatred of Jews and minorities. They enjoy escalating situations, starting street violence, and pretending they are somehow responsible for the success of Western civilization. Whatever you want to label them, I think being associated with them or being a member of their group should be embarrassing and a stain on someone's reputation.

Groups should be embarrassing and a stain on someone's reputation. All right, that brings us to our story that matters. This one is about President Biden, who named Jerome Powell to continue to serve as the chairman of the Federal Reserve today. Powell, who faced some opposition from Democrats, is now responsible for guiding Fed policy on how to address inflation and the continuing economic recovery from COVID-19. Officials have said they don't want to overreact and raise interest rates, which could be premature if supply chain issues resolve and inflation slows down. But if they do nothing, the inflation could compound, sending the economy careening toward long-term challenges and the risk of hyperinflation. Powell was named to the Fed's seven-member board 10 years ago by Barack

Obama, then elevated to chairman by President Donald Trump, and now reappointed by Biden. The Wall Street Journal has a great story about this decision. You can check it out in today's newsletter. All right, and that brings us to our numbers section. First up, some polling on Kyle Rittenhouse. 22% is the percentage of U.S. adults who believed Rittenhouse would be found guilty of homicide. 41% is the percentage of U.S. adults who did not believe Rittenhouse would be found guilty of homicide. 37% is the percentage of U.S. adults who said they were unsure about what the verdict would be in the Rittenhouse case. 43% is the percentage of voters who think the climate and social spending package will make inflation worse.

That's according to Politico. 15% is the percentage of voters who think it will have no impact on inflation. And 26% is the percentage of voters who think it will improve inflation. All right, last up, our Have a Nice Day section. This one is about a great story. A Boston hospital is beginning trials on a nasal spray that could be used as a vaccine or treatment for Alzheimer's. 16 participants aged 60 to 85 with early symptomatic Alzheimer's will be in the trial. Two doses of the vaccine will be given one week apart. Phase one trials are used to establish

safety and dosage, not necessarily effectiveness. That comes later. But if successful, the drug could move on into much larger, more important trials that will test that effectiveness. And that's given a lot of people a lot of hope. The spray uses protolin, a drug that boosts someone's immune system. And the hospital explained that the drug is designed to activate white blood cells found in the lymph nodes on the side and back of the neck to migrate to the brain and trigger clearance of beta amyloid plaques, which is one of the hallmarks of Alzheimer's disease. There's a CBS story about this in today's newsletter if you want some more information. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast.

Thank you for tuning in. I am currently on the road. I'm doing this podcast from my mother's closet. I'm home for Thanksgiving, visiting some family. And if any of you guys are traveling or on the road or with family, I just want to wish you some safe travels. I hope this week is easy and not too many flight cancellations or craziness. We'll be back tomorrow and we'll have a brief Happy Thanksgiving

podcast newsletter on Wednesday and then we'll be off for the rest of the week. So stick around. We'll see you tomorrow and hope you guys have a good one. Our newsletter is written by Isaac Saul, edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle's social media manager, Magdalena Bokova, who also helped create our logo. The podcast is edited by Trevor Eichhorn, and music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more from Tangle, subscribe to our newsletter

or check out our content archives at www.readtangle.com Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, We'll be right back.