Tangle - The Olympic boxing controversy.

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

The Olympic boxing controversy. Last week, Imane Khelif became the center of an Olympic controversy when Italian boxer Angela Carini retired from their match after just 46 seconds, suggesting the force of Khelif’s punches was overwhelming. The bout’s surprising end brought attention to Khelif’s disqualification from the 2023 world championships after the International Boxing Association (IBA) said she failed a chromosome test and was not eligible to compete against women.You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.You can watch the entire Tangle Live event at City Winery NYC on our YouTube Channel!Check out Episode 5 of our podcast series, The Undecideds. Please give us a 5-star rating and leave a comment!Today’s clickables: The Tangle Live event is now on YouTube (0:49), Quick hits (2:23), Today’s story (4:19) Right’s take (8:08), Left’s take (12:31), Isaac’s take (16:37), Listener Question (22:18), Under the Radar (24:37), Numbers (25:22), Have a nice day (26:15)You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Help share Tangle.I'm a firm believer that our politics would be a little bit better if everyone were reading balanced news that allows room for debate, disagreement, and multiple perspectives. If you can take 15 seconds to share Tangle with a few friends I'd really appreciate it. Email Tangle to a friend here, share Tangle on X/Twitter here, or share Tangle on Facebook here.Take the survey: Do you think the IOC is being fair? Let us know!Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th.

Got a mortgage? Chances are you're thinking about your payments right now. Need help? Ask your bank about relief measures that may be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu,

a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. and thinking a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about Amani Khalif, the boxer that is at the center of controversy at the Olympics. It's a very interesting and complicated story and also one that has brought

out the worst in people, predictably. So maybe we can do a little bit to push back against that. Before we do that, I want to give you a quick heads up. On our YouTube channel, we have just released the footage from our second ever live event in New York City. I don't know how to describe this except to say that it was a banger, man. I mean, this was an awesome event. We had some really, really interesting debates on stage. Things got fiery. Things were funny. It was a really, really good vibe in the room. It was some of the most fun I've is nationally syndicated and has his own podcast. All different backgrounds, different political beliefs. And, you know, they duked it out on some things. They agreed on some things. We got some

really awesome audience questions. We've been working on this video for a while because the event is, you know, pretty long, an hour or so. And it was a beast of a video to put together. So shout out to John Law, our video producer and podcast producer who did that. But it is now up on our YouTube channel, Tangle News on YouTube. Would love it if you guys go like the video, subscribe to the channel, leave a comment, let us know what you think, and share it because I think it's a great example of bringing people together who disagree politically and showing how to have those kinds of conversations. All right, speaking of John, I'm going to pass it over to him for today's main story, and I'll be back with my take. Thanks, Isaac, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today.

First up, Russia declared a state of emergency at its border region of Kursk after Ukraine launched an unusual cross-border attack. Number two, former President Donald Trump announced plans to hold a news conference in Florida on Thursday afternoon. His first public appearance since Vice President Kamala Harris named Tim Walz as her running mate. Separately, Trump announced he'll be interviewed by Elon Musk on Monday. Number three, Tropical Storm Debbie made a second landfall in the Carolinas after passing through the region earlier this week. Number four, global stocks rebounded from a sell-off earlier

this week, and U.S. Treasury yields rose. The 30-year fixed mortgage rate dropped to 6.55, its lowest level in 15 months, as the Federal Reserve considers an interest rate cut in September. At number five, the Minnesota National Guard contested Democratic Governor Tim Walz's claim that he held the rank of command sergeant major at the time of his retirement from the state's National Guard, saying Walz did not complete the requisite coursework to retain the rank. The 2024 Olympic Games have garnered tens of millions of viewers with jaw-dropping performances and compelling storylines. But in recent days, controversy surrounding the gender of one boxer has also consumed headlines. Khalif's participation in the women's matches has been under renewed scrutiny. She was disqualified from last year's world championships after the International Boxing

Association said she failed a gender eligibility test. The International Olympic Committee saying this morning that all the athletes in the tournament comply with the competition's regulations. On Tuesday, Algerian boxer Iman Khalif won her semifinal match at the Paris Olympics, advancing to the gold medal fight in the women's 66-kilogram division on Friday. Last week, Khalief became the center of an Olympic controversy when Italian boxer Angela Carini retired from their match after just 46 seconds, suggesting the force of Kalief's punches was overwhelming. The bout's surprising end brought attention to Kalief's disqualification from the 2023 World Championships after the International

Boxing Association said she had failed a chromosome test and was not eligible to compete against women. The IBA's decision and Karini's comments led many observers to argue that Khalif, as well as Taiwan's Lin Yuting, who also failed an IBA test, should not have been allowed to compete in the women's division at the Olympics. Khalif was assigned female at birth and is categorized as female on her passport, which is the standard used by the International Olympic Committee for Boxing Eligibility. She's never identified as transgender or intersex, which is having physical characteristics that don't fit into male or female sex binary. But her disqualification from last year's World

Championships led to speculation that she is a biological male or has abnormal levels of testosterone for a female. Kalief initially appealed the IBA's decision but withdrew her challenge during the appeals process. Yu Ting did not appeal. However, the IBA has not published the test results and the IOC severed ties with the organization last year due to alleged financial and ethical impropriety. The IBA is led by Russia's Umar Kremlin, an ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, and during his tenure, Kremlin has suspended Ukraine from the boxing organization, moved some of the IBA's operations to Russia,

and accepted sponsorships from Russia's state-run energy company, Gazprom. Kalif competed under IBA rules without issue, including the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, where she lost in the quarterfinals, until she was abruptly declared ineligible after defeating Russian boxer Azulia Ameneva in the 2023 World Championships. The IOC described Khalif and Wu Ting's disqualification as a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA, in which they were suddenly disqualified without any due process. in which they were suddenly disqualified without any due process. In response, the IBA claimed that Khalif and Wu Ting failed eligibility tests in 2022 and 2023,

though they did not explain why no action was taken against either boxer in 2022. Despite the controversy surrounding the IBA decision, many prominent figures, including former President Donald Trump, Republican Vice Presidential Candidate J.D. Vance, Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Maloney, and Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling have argued Khalif and Yuting should not have been eligible to compete in the women's division at the Olympics, citing concerns over safety and unfair competitive advantages. Broadly, the Olympic saga has renewed the debate over transgender women's participation in women's sports, with critics of the IOC suggesting Khalif's participation jeopardizes the integrity of the competition. Khalif said the scrutiny she's faced harms human dignity and called on the people of the world to refrain from bullying all athletes

because this has effects, massive effects. In the past week, Algerians have rallied around Khalif, celebrating her Olympic run in newspapers, on television, and in social media. On Tuesday, Algerian President Abdelmajid Tabon called Khalif to congratulate her after her semi-final victory. Thank you, Iman Khalif, for making all Algerians happy with this strong and wonderful qualification for the final. All Algerian women and men are with you, Tabon wrote on social media. Today, we'll share arguments from the right and the left about the Olympic controversy, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. The faster money and data move, the further your business can go to a seamless digital future for Canadians.

Let's go faster forward together. In life, interact. Whether renting, renewing a mortgage, or considering buying a home, everybody has housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances, visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right is critical of Khalif

and Yuting's participation in the Olympics, suggesting the IOC should change its rules for eligibility. Some express compassion for Khalif's situation, but say the safety of female athletes should be prioritized. Others say allowing boxers like Khalif to compete will lead to serious injury. National Review's editors wrote about the dangerous Olympic boxing gender experiment. Despite uncertainty about the dangerous Olympic boxing gender experiment. Despite uncertainty about the precise qualifications and testing monitored by the IBA, it is clear that the Olympic Games have far less stringent requirements. The International Olympic Committee decided in 1999 to end sex verification screening for the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney because, according to a 2000 article published by Genetics

in Medicine, the chromosomal testing was expensive, discriminatory, and emotionally harmed female athletes, the editors said. The International Olympic Committee's portrayal guidelines argue that a person's sex category is not assigned based on genetics alone, but genetics do determine sex, regardless of what we assign or what letter is printed on a passport. The issue isn't whether the IOC violates its own rules. The issue is that those rules are unjust. Abolishing chromosomal testing and other forms of examinations

allowed athletes with rare disorders that provide competitive advantages to participate in women's divisions, the editors wrote. Although neither Khalif nor Lynn, who coasted to victory on Friday by unanimous decision, has publicly identified as transgender, the Olympic Games' expansive transgender inclusion policies have enabled battery against women under the guise of sports rather than violence. In red state, Margaret Clark argued, It doesn't matter if an Olympic boxer is intersex. Women should still be protected, not the minority.

This is undoubtedly a troubling situation in which empathy is due. Iman was born with a complex condition through no fault of her own. There is reason why some would feel that she should not be excluded, Clark said. Even as we have compassion for people like Khalif, we must remember that women's sports were created to offer a protected space for the millions of females around the world who previously did not have their own arena. Exclusivity of a minority, even if well-intentioned, at the expense of the majority, is an injustice. Asking all women to sacrifice their safety and opportunity so that a few select women who were born either male or intersex is wrong. Who are the people making

these decisions for female athletes everywhere? Have the female athletes been consulted? Where are the feminists defending women's rights to a safe and fair playing field? As women, we have a responsibility to advocate for our rights and the protection of our spaces. We must also debunk the lie that doing so means that we are unfairly excluding others. But truly, only a woman would be expected to include others at her cost anyway, right? Inclusivity of the minority at the expense of the majority is not equality. It's preference, and it has no place in women's rights. In the New York Post, Eric Hassanzi said, The issue is complex, but still one of fairness.

This situation is a complicated one. Unlike the majority of male athletes competing against females in interscholastic and collegiate competitions here in the United States, who generally self-identify as transgender, Khalifa is believed to suffer a disorder of sexual development, Sanzi wrote. But our compassion cannot negate the unfairness and the very real danger of allowing athletes with these conditions to participate in the women's division. After two blows to the head, Karini knew she couldn't go on safely. If the IOC doesn't right this ship,

someone will likely be killed. That's why other competitions test female boxers for testosterone levels, the same as they would check for other performance-enhancing drugs. Here at home, on the same day the Olympic Sphero broke out, the Biden-Harris administration's rewrite of Title IX

took effect in the 24 states that have not won preliminary injunctions to block its law's implementation. This new and completely gutted version of Title IX expands the definition of sex to include gender identity. And now the only requirement to participate as a male in girl sports is to self-identify as a girl, Sanzi said. Too often these stories are framed as to what's respectful for the transgender athlete, but showing them respect should not mean throwing out the rights of other athletes or creating an unfair or unsafe competition. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left argues that Khalif's critics are jumping to conclusions without evidence.

Some say the right is using the controversy to advance an anti-LGBTQ agenda. Others say a fact-based conversation about sex and gender is needed. In USA Today, Dan Wolkin said, let's just slow down and look at the facts. Let's make one thing very clear off the top. There isn't a sane human being on the planet who believes that a man should be boxing a woman in the Olympics. Not a single one. That said, let's also say something equally important. Slow down, Wolkin wrote. There aren't a whole lot of facts right now. There are, however, plenty of reasons to be skeptical about the explosive narrative that a man was boxing women at the Olympics when you consider the underlying issues with that claim.

The IBA issued a statement saying that Khalif and Lynn did not undergo a testosterone examination, but failed a separate and recognized test. We don't know what kind of test those were, what they were testing for, or which organization oversaw the lab work. If you aren't aware, those details are kind of a big deal in the Olympic world, Wolkin said. When you put all this entire fact pattern together, there are far too many unanswered questions and obvious agendas here for the American political right wing to send this train down the tracks in good faith. In The Nation, Jules Boykoff and David Zirin wrote, We must defend Iman Khalif.

Khalif is a boxer with a 9-5 career professional record and a low knockdown rate. But that did not stop her tormentors, who know nothing about women's boxing, from trying to make her sound like the young Mike Tyson. Carini is a police officer and a favorite of Italian fascists, with a history of quitting early in fights, Boykoff and Zirin said. Setting aside the fact that it is medically possible for women to have XY chromosomes, and setting aside the fact that numerous health conditions can spur a rise in production of male hormones, and setting aside all the problems with assuming that there is a tidy biological

gender binary that Khalif is somehow guilty of violating, there's the matter of the messenger. The International Boxing Association is shady. In 130 years of existence, the IOC has withdrawn recognition from only one international sports governing body, the IBA, in 2023. Remarkable given the long history of corrupt sporting governing bodies, Boykoff and Zirin wrote. There is zero available evidence of these supposedly failed tests that the IBA is howling about. Nothing has been released to the public. That hasn't stopped the right-wing hate machine alongside a relentless contingent of transphobes who have made Save Women Sports their mantra, apparently unconcerned that they are throwing women like

Khalif, Lin Yuting, and anyone else who fails to pass their looks test. In Bloomberg, F.D. Flamm suggested the controversy is being misunderstood. The case highlights what's wrong with Musk, Rowling, and others who think of themselves as bravely opposing excess political correctness. They're too in love with their own assumptions and superficial judgments. Kalief's jawline and strong torso may look stereotypically masculine, but biological sex is about more than looks, and sometimes more complex than chromosomes, Flam said. There are a number of ways an XY individual might develop what looks like female genitalia, or an XX individual might have male-like testosterone levels.

Embryos all start out with a sort of starter kit for the reproductive parts of both sexes, and a series of activated genes and hormonal surges usually steers things in one direction or another. Usually, but not always, Flam wrote. Among Olympians, it's more likely we would see people with unusual physical traits. The Olympics and other elite sporting events select these extreme body types, people who are unusually strong, incredibly tall, or short but extremely powerful. This Olympic flap comes at a time of confusion and disagreement about the nature of sex and gender, but there's no excuse for bullying or aiming cheating accusations at athletes who don't conform to expectations. Alright, let's head over brings us to my take.

So when this story initially broke, I had a few thoughts. First, I was disappointed in how ill-informed the commentary online was. It seemed like the vast majority of people leaving comments about Khalif presumed that she was a male-to-female transgender fighter and chalked her fighting up to quote-unquote woke ideology from the Olympic Committee. Online commentators said a lot of really prejudicial and gross things about transgender people that were obviously irrelevant to anyone who even spent two minutes reading past the headlines. I was able to get at least one prominent person to correct the record about Khalif not being a male-to-female transgender

person, but I shouldn't have had to, given all the available information on Khalif and her home country of Algeria, where being trans is a crime. Second, the claim that Khalif was cheating is also completely unfair. She was assigned female at birth and has identified as a female her entire life. If these test results are real, they're probably a bigger shock to her than anyone else. Many women with differences in sex development, also known as DSD, never even know they have them. So Khalif was competing in the Olympics because the rules explicitly allow her to. That is not cheating. If you have a problem with her fighting, you don't have a problem with her or her decision. You have a problem with the Olympic

rules. But most of the people mad at Khalif didn't seem to understand the rules. They just wanted to be mad at Khalif. Third, there is a really sad irony here that people like Khalif are proof. Gender and sex are not always simple. Yet Khalif's story immediately had critics insisting they were. Chromosomal variations are extremely rare. They occur in about 1 in 100 people, a higher rate than the birth of identical twins. So we need a good set of rules to address them. If the IBA reports are accurate and Khalifa

did have XY chromosomes and DSD and went through what is effectively a male puberty, I actually think there is a very good argument that she shouldn't be allowed to compete in the women's boxing division. Experts seem to agree the conferred testosterone increase would be a massive advantage in boxing. As I've said before, my overarching solution for sex and gender disputes in sports is that the governing bodies of specific sports should solve them, not general groups like the NCAA, IOC, or national governments. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, after watching this story develop for a few days, by far the most dominant reaction I have to it is this. I don't trust the International Boxing Association.

To be clear, basically everything I've said up to this point is still only hypothetical, because we don't actually know that Amani Khalif has DSD, XY chromosomes, or any typically male competitive advantages. And the reason we don't have that is that the IBA has not actually released the test results that would move this discussion to the realm of facts and continues to refuse to do so. The closest corroborating information they've given us is the IBA's head, Umar Kremlev, saying we should read between the lines, which in this case is a very bad solution for a very complicated issue. Regardless of how Kremlev intended his statement, here are some of the lines I'm reading between. Kalief has been a professional boxer for seven years, and her

gender had never been challenged. Not until she beat Azelya Ameneva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect. Conveniently, Ameneva's loss was wiped from her record after Kalief's disqualification. The IBA, which leveled the ban, has deep financial ties to Russia and is being led by a former boxer who's friendly with Vladimir Putin. Despite the levels of corruption we've witnessed in sports, only one international sports governing body has had its recognition withdrawn by the IOC, the IBA, in 2023. This is not some Red Scare conspiracy. It's just the reality. If the IBA wanted to avoid further scrutiny and uncloud this debate, they could do so in minutes by releasing the test to journalists.

Then this conversation could have been one filled with nuanced rules questions, complicated scientific debates, and some empathy for the athletes in question. It would also be helpful to hear from Khalif and Yu Ting about why they did not appeal the IBA decision in 2023, but we haven't heard an explanation other than Khalif calling it a big conspiracy. That leaves us with little to do but speculate. Remember, the IOC has prohibited prominent trans athletes like Leah Thomas from competing in its events, and every year it seems to be trying to iterate on its rules to address the latest science and be as fair as possible to all competitors. Instead, the whole thing got gobbled up by the partisan machinery, with just about everyone jumping to conclusions, projecting what they wanted the story to be about on Khalif,

and retreating into their corners. Liberals simply ignored the possibility that the IOC rules might not be the best way to address fairness of play, and then turned Khalif into a victim of racism or bigotry. Meanwhile, conservatives demonize Khalif, misrepresenting her sex and gender story, and refuse to engage with the very real and difficult reality that sex and gender are not always as black and white as they claim. And while much of the fault of that lies with the IBA, a good deal falls on our polarized political culture. The whole story is an example of how our worst tribal impulses can distract us from the most important question in settling any controversy. What are the actual facts?

We'll be right back after this quick break. We'll be right back after this quick break. considering buying a home or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash It Pays to Know. A message from the Government of Canada. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year,

garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Alright, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered.

This one's from a reader going by R in Tega K, South Carolina. Excuse me if I'm not pronouncing that right. Maybe Tega K? I think it's Tega K, South Carolina. R said, why is someone who's from Jamaican Indian descent considered Black or African American? This is obviously a question about Vice President Kamala Harris. So following our two-part deep dive on Kamala Harris a few weeks ago, we've gotten some version of this question from several readers. From the way I see it, there are two questions here. One is about race and the other is about language. Let me start with the race question. What makes Kamala Harris black? Some people, readers of ours and writers in other

publications, have noted that she is biracial, like Obama or South Asian or Indian. So what makes a person with one black parent black? The easy answer here is that she's both. She's black and she's Indian, and that she's always been. There's a more complicated answer, too, because race can be very complicated. Race is about genetics as much as it is about culture. Many people have mixed backgrounds and based on their upbringing or culture lean into one racial identity more than another. We know that Kamala Harris went to Howard, a historically black university, and that being black has always been a part of her racial identity. So has being South Asian. That can happen. The second question is about language. Why did we refer to

Kamala Harris as African American even though her father is Jamaican, not African? That's because the U.S. Census Bureau, which tracks population-wide demographic information, defines being both Black and African American as having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. On her father's side, Harris's family traces back to Africa, so African American is still accurate. Roughly 90% of Jamaicans are of African origin. That's similar to how some people can be Asian American if their parents immigrated to the United States by way of Canada. Alright, that is it for today's reader question. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod. Want to remind you to go check check out our YouTube video and also keep an eye out for tomorrow's Big Deep Dive Friday

edition in the newsletter on primaries and how we might be able to fix them. It's a good one. I'll see you guys on Sunday. Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. Former President Donald Trump has denied knowing who was in charge of Project 2025 or having any association with the project. But in April of 2022, he shared a 45-minute private flight to a Heritage Foundation conference with Heritage President Kevin Roberts. The flight, which had not been previously reported,

has been documented by plane tracking data, sources who were on the flight, and a photographer of the two on board the plane. When Trump and Roberts arrived at the conference, Trump told the audience Heritage was going to lay the groundwork and detail plans for exactly what our movement will do. The Washington Post has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The number of seconds Iman Khalif's match with Angela Karini lasted before Karini withdrew is 46. Khalif's career record in boxing is 41 and 9. The number of knockouts scored by Khalif in those matches is 6. Lin Yuting's career record in boxing is 45-14. The number of knockouts scored by Yuting in those matches is one. The incidence of children born with a

disorder of sexual development in live births is 1 in 1,000 to 4,500, according to a 2023 study. The percentage of people born intersex is 1.7%, according to Interact. And the amount of prize money the IBA said it would award Carini, her coach, and the Italian Boxing Federation after Carini's loss to Khalif is $100,000. The IBF said it will not accept the money. All right, and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. The number of unhoused veterans has decreased by more than 50% since 2008, when Congress brought back a pilot program called HUDVASH that links housing department vouchers with case management support from the Veterans Department. Veterans

receive bipartisan support in Congress, increasing the political will to grant them resources. Even as rates of homelessness rise nationally, rates of unhoused veterans have increased at a slower rate and in some areas declined. The New York Times has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to retangle.com and sign up for a membership. As Isaac mentioned at the top, we just released the full footage from the Tangle Live event that took place in April at City Winery in New York City. That's up on our YouTube page. Please go check it out. Like, subscribe if you haven't already. We are really trying to build that

channel up. Isaac and Ari will be on the mic for the Sunday podcast, and I'll be back on Monday. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is Jon Law signing off. Have a fantastic weekend, y'all. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Law. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kedak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. you