Tangle - The Pennsylvania Senate race

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

On Monday, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled 4-3 that undated or misdated mail ballots should not be counted in the 2024 election, reaffirming a prior decision and hampering Sen. Bob Casey’s (D) efforts to challenge the results of his race with Dave McCormick (R). The Associated Press and other outlets have called the race for McCormick, and he attended the Senate’s orientation for new members last week. Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to tanglemedia.supercast.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.We are hiring!In the last month or so, the rapid growth of our readership has accelerated a planned expansion of our team. We are hiring for:Assistant to the editor. We are also looking for a highly organized individual dedicated to Tangle's mission who has a passion for multimedia and politics. This person will be working directly with Tangle's executive editor Isaac Saul out of Tangle HQ in Philadelphia, with a start date in February-March. Job listing here.Take the survey: What do you think of county officials counting unsigned or undated ballots? Let us know!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whether renting, renewing a mortgage, or considering buying a home, everybody has housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances, visit Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the Pennsylvania Senate race. Yes, that's still going on, kind of still going on. We're going to talk about exactly what's been happening, the controversy.

And I've got some strong feelings on this one, I'll be honest, because I'm very disappointed in how it's going. We're gonna talk about exactly what's been happening and share some views from across the political spectrum as always. Before we do that though, first of all, I wanna thank Will K. back for stepping in yesterday for me. I had a really awesome experience this week

between 10.30 and four, 5 p or five PM Eastern on Monday and Tuesday. I was in this focus like a boss boot camp run by a guy named Sean Blank and it was awesome. I had an absolute blast. I was very skeptical of how useful something like this was going to be, but it was really helpful and was just like a fun thing to do as a business owner and an entrepreneur and someone who sort of fell into that accidentally. And I think helped me clarify some goals, some stuff I want to do with Tangle and the future,

the future of this business. And it was super exciting. And I'm feeling like energized and motivated about what's coming. And all of you guys, this community we're building. I realized that community is a big, big part of why I do this and why Tangle exists. And it was really fun to have that revelation

in a bootcamp that was supposed to be about business focus. So that's where I was yesterday. Will filled in, that kid's a stud. He crushed it. He went to theater school in college and I was yesterday. Will filled in that kid's a stud. He crushed it He went to theater school in college and it showed yesterday He sounded good on the mic really appreciate him hopping on and we'll do that more often because he was good at it So he should get some get some time and some space to do that Speaking of podcasts and interviews and people this Friday's member only edition is going to be very interesting.

We'll be sharing an interview with David O'Brien, the policy director of Represent Us, which is a nonprofit organization that advocates for reforms to address corruption and ineffectiveness in government. We're speaking with David about the role that super PAC spending played in the 2024 election and his efforts to limit the influence of money in politics.

It's a topic that's very much right up Tangles Alley. I'm excited to share the interview with you guys. So keep an eye out for that. You'll find it on our newsletter and on our podcast both. A quick reminder though, that is a members only post that's coming. So if you want the podcast version of it, you can go to tanglemedia.supercast.com. And if you want the newsletter version,

you can go to readtangle.com forward slash membership. All right. With that, I'm going to send it over to John for today's main topic and our quick hits. And I'll be back for my take. Thanks Isaac. and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, President-elect Donald Trump announced former administrator of the Small Business Administration and former WWE CEO Linda McMahon as his pick for education secretary.

Separately, Trump announced TV personality and former Senate candidate Mehmet Oz as his pick to lead the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Number two, the Biden administration agreed to send anti-personnel landmines to Ukraine for the first time. The weapons are opposed by arms control groups for their propensity to cause high civilian casualties. Number three, 45 activists in Hong Kong were sentenced to multi-year prison terms for their roles in pro-democracy protests in 2019. sentenced to multi-year prison terms for their roles in pro-democracy protests in 2019. Number four, Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg suggested that sentencing in President-elect Trump's hush money case could be postponed until after Trump's term ends in 2029. Judge Juan Marchand will now decide how to proceed with the case.

And number five, a major storm known as a bomb cyclone killed at least one person and knocked out power for roughly 600,000 houses in the Northwest U.S. The Weather Prediction Center issued excessive rainfall risks through Friday. The statewide recount of the U.S. Senate race in Pennsylvania between Democratic incumbent Senator Bob Casey and Republican Dave McCormick continues today. Lancaster, York and Lebanon counties started their recounts yesterday. Dauphin and Cumberland counties will begin tomorrow.

The deadline to begin the recount across the state. McCormick holds a point two percent lead or about 17,000 votes over Casey. On Monday, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled four to three that undated or misdated mail ballots should not be counted in the 2024 election, reaffirming a prior decision and hampering Senator Bob Casey's efforts to challenge the results of his race with Dave McCormick. The Associated Press and other outlets have called the race for McCormick, and he attended the Senate's orientation for new members last week.

McCormick leads Casey by roughly 16,000 votes, with 99.8% of the vote counted, and an estimated 72,000 ballots still to be adjudicated. Under Pennsylvania law, elections decided by 0.5% or less trigger an automatic recount, though trailing candidates can waive their right to a recount.

Casey has not, and counties must now complete their recount by November 26. Separately, election officials in Bucks, Philadelphia, Center, and Montgomery counties voted last week to defy a Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruling from earlier this year that invalidated mail-in ballots with incorrect dates on their outer envelope. Bucks County Board of Commission Chair Diane Ellis-Marseglia sparked controversy when explaining her rationale for ignoring that rule. "'People violate laws anytime they want,' Ellis-Marseglia said. "'So for me, if I violate this law, it's because I want a court to pay attention.

There's nothing more important than counting votes.'" Republicans challenged the officials' decision, and the State Supreme Court, which is made up of five Democrats and two Republicans, upheld its prior ruling and instructed all county officials to comply. The issue whether to count mail-in ballots spoiled by minor voter or clerical errors has animated Pennsylvania courts for several election cycles. Lower courts have previously ruled that an otherwise legal vote should not be thrown away due to a clerical error, but the State Supreme Court overruled those decisions, citing procedural flaws, and declined to resolve the case before

the election. Since Election Day, both campaigns have challenged thousands of contested ballots. Democrats have filed appeals to allow more than 3,000 excluded provisional ballots to be counted, while Republicans filed lawsuits appealing the inclusion of more than 1,800 provisional ballots. Although Casey's past victory has been effectively eliminated, his campaign contends that he can still win through a combination of legal challenges and the statewide recount. Today, we'll explore arguments from the right and the left about the State Supreme

Court's decision and Senator Casey's attempts to challenge the election results, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick bridge. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians

are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash It Pays to Know, a message from the Government of Canada. All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right lambasts KC and Pennsylvania Democrats for their efforts to challenge the election results. Some know that

KC's only remaining option to change the result is to count illegal ballots. Others call on Democratic state leaders to rebuke Casey's tactics. In national review, Jeffrey Blahar said Casey needs to go away. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has spoken, spoken again, spoken with exasperation, spoken for the third time during the election cycle, and has finally lowered the boom on Senator Bob Casey Jr.'s futile attempts to fight his laws to Dave McCormick in the 2024 Pennsylvania state election, Blehar wrote. McCormick currently leads Casey by around 17,000 votes, with nearly all valid ballots counted. All that remains to be counted are invalid ballots, those rejected for facial invalidity

in one way or another, most often for missing signatures or missing date marks. Pennsylvania law and case law specifically stipulate that such ballots are invalid. The matter had already been litigated before the state supreme court twice before election day, and both times the court insisted that no, the law meant exactly what it said. Undated absentee or mail ballots are presumptively invalid, Lehar said. With any luck, this finally tolls the end of the McCormick-Casey race, but nothing is official until Casey concedes.

Let us just marvel at how quickly the Democrats have switched sides with those who denied Trump's loss in states such as Georgia and Arizona back in 2020. In the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Jessica First Johnson argued Bob Casey wants to win with illegal votes. Casey's legal team is led by the same lawyer that dragged the state of Florida through an automatic recount in 2018, despite an insurmountable 12,562 votes separating now-Senator Rick Scott from Bill Nelson.

The strategy was twofold, argue that established state election laws are suddenly unworkable and discriminatory, and demand that anything resembling a ballot be counted, with little regard for whether the voter was qualified under law or whether the vote was timely cast," Johnson wrote. In other words, facing that grade of a deficit, the only option is to change the law or count otherwise illegal votes. Prior to Election Day, applicable Pennsylvania law inarguably required that provisional ballots be signed by the voter, and that absentee ballots be dated in order to be day, applicable Pennsylvania law inarguably required that provisional ballots be signed by the voter and that absentee ballots be dated in order to be counted, Johnson said.

Yet facing the loss of office and desperately wanting a bright spot in an otherwise nightmarish election cycle, Bob Casey and his legal team are willing to disregard state law, thereby canceling out the ballots of valid Pennsylvania voters with ballots that fail to meet the requirements set forth by the state's elected lawmakers and judiciary. It's not changing the rules of the game midway through. It's changing the name of the winner after the stadium lights

are turned off and the fans all went home. In the American Spectator, Scott McKay wrote about Josh Shapiro's major opportunity in the election dispute. Shapiro has allained to presidential victory in 2028, which is to make the public believe he isn't an Obama Democrat, but rather a rust belt version of a Bill Clinton new Democrat, perhaps cleaner and more professional and managerial,

less hostile to business interests, and more respectful of the rule of law, McKay said. The attempted steal in Pennsylvania is something of a crucible for him, because as this goes on, the message it's sending is that Democrats are corrupt and power addicted like the worst of the third world kleptocrats, which is exactly what the voters rejected on November 5th. The toxicity of this can't really be understated, and that dirt will cover everyone involved.

Or there is another option, which is to say essentially, I'm a loyal Democrat and I want all the legal ballots counted, but fair is fair and there is simply a length to which I will not go and to come out against the attempted steal and demand that Casey concede," McKay wrote. Doing that would set off a little earthquake in the party. It would repudiate the Obama-ianist wing at a time when the public has already done so. It would make Josh Shapiro interesting. And it would also position him to be the leader willing to make hard choices and stand on principle that his party is casting about for.

Alright that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. Most on the left are critical of the county officials' disregard for the state Supreme Court's orders on invalid ballots. Senator Casey and his defenders argue they are fighting against the disenfranchisement of voters who made small clerical errors on their ballots. Others bemoan the optics of Casey's election challenge. The Washington Post editorial board wrote, Democrats thumb their nose at the rule of law in Pennsylvania.

Before the November 5th election, Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled that provisional ballots must be signed in two required places and that mail-in votes must be dated. Yet elected Democratic officials in Philadelphia and three other counties, Bucks, Center, and Montgomery, voted this week to defy these and other court decisions

at the request of lawyers for Democratic Senator Bob Casey, the board said. The mere attempt to defy judicial rulings is corrosive to democracy and invites similar behavior in future elections. Elections need rules established in advance of the voting and those rules must be applied equally and consistently. Pennsylvania Supreme Court, by the way, includes five justices elected in partisan elections as Democrats and just two elected Republicans. Even if that partisan balance were reversed, however, the court's authority would be equally legitimate, the board wrote. There is hypocrisy on both sides of this dispute. This is politics, after all, but it is irrelevant to the legal merits.

County officials do not get to decide whether a legal requirement is material and must be followed. Courts do, and they have spoken clearly. In PennLive, Senator Bob Casey argued, we must value democracy more than expediency. As Pennsylvanians wait to learn the final result of this very close Senate election, there has been extensive commentary about why I have not conceded. The answer is simple. Pennsylvanians deserve to have their voices heard, and the worth of someone's vote is not determined by how long it takes to be counted," Casey said. There are thousands of eligible voters who cast their ballot but made small errors that would have disenfranchised them if they weren't able to correct them by their county's deadline.

Most counties allow up to a week for voters to correct these minor errors in a process known as curing ballots. This close race has also put a spotlight on undated mail ballots, as my opponent and his allies have filed an appeal with the Pennsylvania Supreme Court to disqualify mail ballots where a voter has accidentally written the date wrong or didn't write a date at all. Undated mail ballots have long been at issue in Pennsylvania's elections. Governor Wolf's administration advocated to have these ballots count, as has Secretary of State all. Undated mail ballots have long been at issue in Pennsylvania's elections. Governor Wolf's administration advocated to have these ballots count, as has Secretary of State Al Schmidt and even my opponent himself," Casey wrote. At its core, this is a debate about constitutionality of disenfranchising thousands of voters due to a requirement that has no

bearing on a voter's eligibility and has no impact on deterring fraud. In The Philadelphia Citizen, Larry Platt said Casey's attempt to keep his seat is not a good look. The central question for Democrats everywhere nowadays just might be this. Do we have to become Trump in order to beat him? You know, get down in the muck, rule of law and even civility be damned. Can Democrats remain principled and still ultimately win? Or have we officially entered a new era of political zero-sum, eye-for-an-eye warfare?

I fear that Senator Bob Casey, of all people, might be answering just that question right now at our collective peril," Platt wrote. It is, of course, Casey's right to exhaust every legal means at his disposal in order to, as his still-relentless fundraising emails put it, make sure that every vote is counted. But it turns out that some extra-legal means might also be in play. Democrats should be looking inward, asking themselves why the majority of the country prefers a convicted felon whose last term ended in historic disapproval ratings over what they're selling.

They should not be borrowing from the Dear Leaders playbook, Platt said. Trump has mastered his art of political, I know you are, but what am I? So now we have a Casey loyalist arguing to defy a court order and Casey's silence in response. Could you help the Fox News message machine more as it purposefully muddies the water as to which side really practices election interference?

All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take. All right, that is it for what the right and the left are saying, which brings us to my take. So first, I want to start by stating what should be obvious. Pennsylvania county election officials were wrong to openly disregard the state Supreme Court's ruling. In fact, Bucks County Board of Commissioners Chair, Diane Ellis-Marsaglia's suggestion that precedent by a court doesn't matter anymore in this country is one of the most egregious statements

from an elected official that I've heard in my career covering politics. Ellis-Marsaglia is now walking the comment back, but the damage is done. Republicans are rightfully calling out the hypocrisy of democratic officials ignoring the law when it doesn't suit them. And I'm glad to see principled voices on the left

condemn these actions too. In fairness to Casey, he's within his rights to pursue a recount and push for the inclusion of the remaining provisional ballots. Republicans did something similar in 2020, push for the inclusion of the remaining provisional ballots. Republicans did something similar in 2020, challenging the legality of the election system after Donald Trump lost the state. Pennsylvania was also one of the states that took part in Trump's alternate electors scheme,

with Republicans asking Pennsylvania's congressional delegation to reject electors for Joe Biden over their objections to the state's vote-by-mail law. Just over two weeks ago, I actually spoke to one of those electors, the chair of the Bucks County Republican Committee, Patricia Poppric. She told me that while she felt the challenges to the state's election result were merited in 2020,

that she always intended to adhere to whatever the court ruled and that she expected Democrats would have done the same. That's a fair stance to me. In that same spirit, it's not hard to imagine Republican officials pressured by Trump and the RNC acting similarly to help McCormick if he had been the one trailing.

However, in the real world, Democrats are the ones actually doing that. Regardless of how you feel about whether an incorrect date on a mail-in ballot should be grounds for rejection, and I'll get to that in a bit, the state Supreme Court's ruling could not have been more clear. These ballots cannot and will not be counted.

Defying the law so brazenly had a minuscule chance of helping Casey and only affirms Americans' concerns about election integrity and conservatives' worries about Democrats' willingness to steal an election. Now, Casey has put himself in an impossible spot. Distance yourself from the election officials but still claim you're just trying to count all the ballots.

The situation is just as bad for Democrats writ large who ran on the protecting democracy motto and are now relying on illegally counted ballots to try to eke out one more Senate seat. Democratic elections lawyer Mark Elias, who is representing Casey, literally runs a media platform called Democracy Docket, which is publishing articles criticizing Republican Eric Hovde for refusing to concede to Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin in Wisconsin's Senate race. To be clear, I think Elias is acting properly in representing Casey, but you couldn't ask

for a clearer representation of the dilemma Pennsylvania Democrats are in right now. Still, if they want to, it's a dilemma Democrats could solve by simply dropping this lost cause. History suggests neither a recount nor further litigation will reverse the outcome. As Jessica First Johnson notes, under what the right is saying, of the 36 recounts in the U.S. statewide elections between 2000 and 2023, only three resulted in a different outcome. And the difference between the candidates in each of those three races

was under 300 votes at the start. As I write, McCormick leads Casey by over 24,000 votes, or more than 80 times the amount of any result-changing electoral differential in the last 23 years. What's more, even if all the disputed ballots were counted, McCormick would still win. If I had Casey's ear, I'd advise him to concede now, while he can still salvage a modicum of grace.

All that said, this saga doesn't degrade my confidence in our elections. If anything, it strengthens it. While I would obviously prefer rogue election officials not run afoul of the law, the Democrat majority court acted swiftly to ensure the rules were being followed. Whenever Casey's challenges are eventually exhausted or he concedes, McCormick will be seated as the state's next senator. In other words, even in an instance

of a glaring abuse of power, our system has held strong. After following this story for the past week, it's abundantly clear that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court needs to rule definitively on improperly dated mail-in ballots before the next election. It's worth noting that for all this turmoil, we could be right back here again in 2028. The state Supreme Court didn't overrule the lower court's decision to allow these ballots to be counted because it disagreed with their reasoning, but simply because of a procedural flaw in the case. Now that the election is over, the justices should take up the

case again and rule on the merits. The best thing that could come from this story would be the courts and state lawmakers resolving outstanding issues on how mail-in and provisional ballots are counted so we can prevent these issues from ever reoccurring. And, to put my cards on the table, I think these ballots should count. Poprick, the Bucks County Republican committee chair, actually made this point in our interview, arguing that as long as a voter gets their ballot back in time, a date error on their ballot shouldn't invalidate their vote. In 2020, my mom incorrectly submitted a ballot in Bucks County, and I was glad she had an

opportunity to cure it. Mistakes happen, even for experienced voters, and we should craft our laws in ways that allow everyone the chance to have their voice be heard. For now, I'm glad to see the court shut this effort down for what it is and attempt to undermine a fair election. Hopefully, they bring some more clarity for future elections, too. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right. That is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered.

This one is from Alex in Indianapolis, Indiana. Alex said, I was wondering if you had any insight as to the argument that Harris only won states with no voter ID laws. This does seem to be the case unless I'm misreading data. My real question about it is, do we know if there's any validity to the idea that she only won those states because of the laws surrounding voter ID?

Okay, so before going any further, no, it is not true that Harris only won states without voter ID laws. Among the states she carried, New Hampshire and Rhode Island require a photo ID to vote, while Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, and Virginia all require some form of ID. Furthermore, Donald Trump won two crucial swing states that do not require IDs to vote, Pennsylvania and Nevada, which further pushes back against the idea that a lack of security opened the door to fraud, which is the only way Harris could have competed in the election. But let's cede the point that Harris won a majority of the states with no voter ID laws

while Trump won a majority of the ones that do have voter ID laws. Even then, the framing still falls flat for two reasons. First, causation isn't correlation. Harrison wins states without voter ID laws because of fraud. She won them because the states that are predisposed to black voter ID laws are the same ones that tend to vote for Democrats. For instance, I could also point out that Harris won 18 of the 20 states, all but Nevada and Michigan, that had some constitutional protections for the right to abortion.

That wouldn't really tell us much, except that Democrat-led states that pass Democratic agenda items tend to vote for Democrats. Second, people who push back against these laws are not pro-fraud. I don't agree fully with their stance, but there are good faith reasons to oppose voter ID laws, and there really just wasn't any evidence of widespread voter fraud in this year's election. I've looked into claim after claim about this. It happens, it's rare, and there is yet to be fraud widespread enough to change the outcome of any national election. I'm always willing to investigate claims of fraud and to be sure there have been some genuine

examples, many of which have been caught through the audit process. But there simply isn't any good reason to think a lack of voter ID laws directly contributed to fraud that allowed Harris to win the state she won in 2024. All right. That is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I will see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.

Thanks Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. The Trump administration plans to make wider adoption of self-driving vehicles a priority for the Department of Transportation, according to a new report from Bloomberg. The federal government currently has strict rules regulating the deployment of autonomous cars, but the president-elect's transition team is working to staff the department with new leaders to develop a framework for adopting these vehicles at scale. Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla and one of Trump's most prominent supporters, has invested heavily in self-driving technology for his company's cars.

And Trump's plans for the industry are expected to benefit that technology, which is also a focus of Waymo and Cruz, two other industry leaders. Bloomberg has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Bloomberg has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright, next up is our numbers section. Dave McCormick's lead over Bob Casey in in-person votes that have been counted as of November 18th in the Pennsylvania Senate race is 621,637. Casey's lead over McCormick in mail ballots that have been counted as of November 18th is 592,788.

KC's lead over McCormick in provisional ballots that have been counted to date is 11,060. The number of votes that KC and McCormick respectively would have gained if Bucks County had counted undated mail-in ballots according to the Bucks County Election Board is 326 and 288. The number of statewide election recounts between 2000 and 2023 is 36 out of 6,929 general elections. The number of statewide recounts that resulted in changed outcomes between 2000 and 2023 is three.

The year of the most recent reversal of an election outcome that resulted in changed outcomes between 2000 and 2023 is 3. The year of the most recent reversal of an election outcome due to statewide recount is 2008. Al Franken defeated Norm Coleman for Minnesota Senate seat. And the average margin shift in votes resulting from statewide recounts between 2000 and 2023 is 551. All right, and last but not least least our have a nice day story.

When Vimar Hunter learned he had been adopted as a child, he underwent genetic testing in an effort to seek out his birth mother. To his surprise, he learned his mother, Lenore Lindsay, lived in his same Chicago neighborhood and owned a bakery that Hunter frequented. Their reunion led to a close bond and to Hunter helping Lindsay with the bakery. Lindsay described her excitement at coming in contact with Hunter by saying that their connection was immediate.

She told People, it's the most joyful story and time in my life. People Magazine has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership. And you can also go to tanglemedia.supercast.com

to sign up for a premium podcast membership, which will get you ad free daily podcasts, Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews and so much more. We'll be right back here tomorrow for Isaac and the rest of the crew. This is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.

Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by Dinka Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will K. Back, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bikova, who's also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle,

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