Tangle - The RFK Jr. and Joe Rogan interview.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Starting point is 00:01:00 From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we are going to be talking about RFK Jr. and his recent interview on the Joe Rogan podcast. We have previously covered RFK Jr.'s candidacy for the Democratic primary, but this podcast brought in some really interesting debate about debating, about vaccines, about misinformation, about RFK Jr., so we figured it was worthwhile to jump back into it. Before we do, though, a quick note. First of all, tomorrow, I'm going to be publishing a members-only Friday edition on bad arguments and the anatomy of bad arguments, how they

Starting point is 00:02:07 work, how I see them play out in the punditry space. If you want to receive that newsletter, you must be a subscriber, so please go to readtangle.com backslash membership to become a Tangle subscriber, a paid subscriber to receive that newsletter. Also, I want to give you a heads up. This is in today's Tangle newsletter, and we will drop a link in the episode description where we can, but we are running a little contest for our event. We are going to give away two VIP tickets to our event in Philadelphia on August 3rd. So if you are interested in coming to the event,

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Starting point is 00:03:00 if you wanna go check that out. We are very much hoping to see you guys there, August 3rd, Philadelphia. All right, with that out of the are very much hoping to see you guys there, August 3rd, Philadelphia. All right, with that out of the way, we'll jump in with our quick hits. First up, Special Counsel John Durham testified before Congress yesterday, answering questions about his investigation into the 2016 FBI probe of Donald Trump and Russia's election interference. Number two, the House of Representatives voted along party lines to censure Representative Adam Schiff, the Democrat from California, for misleading claims he made during the investigations into Donald Trump.

Starting point is 00:03:42 Number three, in a rare op-ed published in the Wall Street Journal, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito preemptively defended himself before the release of a ProPublica article about alleged ethics violations. Number four, after four Israelis were killed by a Palestinian gunman, hundreds of Israeli settlers stormed into a Palestinian town, torching homes and cars and killing one person. Number five, a Russian court rejected an appeal by Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkowitz, extending his prison sentence until late August at a minimum. Robert Kennedy Jr. made his official campaign announcement this afternoon in Boston. He's an environmental lawyer known for his anti-vaccine activism and hopes to challenge President Biden for the Democratic nomination.

Starting point is 00:04:47 about chemicals in the water and the effect that might be having on all sorts of health concerns for young people and then specifically getting into gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia and those issues. A top vaccine scientist says he's been the target of stalking and harassment and he says it started after he called a podcast with Joe Rogan and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. started after he called a podcast with Joe Rogan and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. disinformation. Now, that escalated into a back and forth on Twitter that even got Elon Musk involved. On June 15th, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. appeared on Joe Rogan's podcast to describe his outlook on vaccine safety as a candidate for president in 2024. For the first hour of the three-hour interview, Kennedy spoke largely uninterrupted about the theory that ethylmercury and aluminum present in many vaccines causes autism, autoimmune disease, neurological disease, and other chronic

Starting point is 00:05:36 diseases. For the remaining two hours, Kennedy spoke about aluminum adjuvants in vaccines causing allergies, Wi-Fi or cell phone radiation causing tumors, the effectiveness of ivermectin and hydrochloroquine as alternative treatments for COVID, the prevalence and danger of pesticide use, and the military-industrial complex, among other topics. A brief editor's note, since the inclusion of autism spectrum disorder in the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, also known as DSM-3, in the 1980s, autism has been diagnosed in children at an increasingly higher rate. However, despite the persistence of the theory that vaccines cause autism, there's never been a causal link found between higher rates of vaccination and higher rates of autism. The interview was part of a media blitz for Kennedy, who in the last two weeks has done interviews with

Starting point is 00:06:31 NBC News, Fox News, the Free Press, and Jordan Peterson, among others. Kennedy continues to pull support from roughly one in five Democratic primary voters. However, his sit-down with Rogan generated a significant amount of backlash, with many accusing the show of peddling vaccine misinformation and pseudoscience. One of the interview's staunchest attractors was vaccine scientist and former Joe Rogan podcast guest Peter Hotez, whose work on the COVID-19 vaccines Kennedy and Rogan both criticized. Hotez called the show nonsense and retweeted a Vice article about vaccine misinformation on Rogan's podcast.

Starting point is 00:07:09 Rogan responded by offering Hotez to come back on the show to debate Kennedy, saying in a tweet, Peter, if you claim what RFK Jr. is saying is misinformation, I'm offering you $100,000 to the charity of your choice if you're willing to debate him on my show with no time limit. A groundswell of support for the idea grew online, with Elon Musk tweeting that Hotez was

Starting point is 00:07:30 afraid of a public debate. Vaccine skeptics, Musk followers, and RFK Jr. supporters have rallied to the cause, eventually leading to a YouTuber confronting Hotez at his home on Sunday. In an appearance on MSNBC's Mehdi Hassan's show, Hotez turned down the idea of going on to Rogan's show to debate RFK Jr. on vaccines, comparing the idea of Rogan moderating a debate with Kennedy to going on the Jerry Springer show. Every stage of the exchange has been controversial. The original claims Robert F. Kennedy Jr. made on Joe Rogan's podcast, the criticism of Dr. Hotez about the claims, the challenge from Rogan, Hotez's refusal, the criticism of Hotez's refusal. This is not the first time Kennedy's

Starting point is 00:08:11 views on vaccines and other scientific issues have caused a stir. Members of his family have spoken out against him, and Kennedy has said he has lost speaking gigs and jobs because of his beliefs. This week, YouTube removed an interview Kennedy did with Jordan Peterson citing vaccine misinformation. Along with appearing on Rogan's podcast, The Most Popular in the World, Kennedy is also getting a boost from Wall Street and other powerful tech players. Former Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey endorsed him, while current Twitter CEO and Tesla founder Elon Musk hosted a Twitter space with him. Wealthy venture capitalists like David Sachs, Chamath Paliapedia, and Omid Malik are hosting fundraising events for him. Today, we're going to take a look at some reactions from the left and the right to RFK's latest

Starting point is 00:08:55 interview and the ensuing debate around's candidacy, though they are divided about how to engage him. Some argue that scientists should debate him on his vaccine views, while others say it would be futile. Others suggest we should be more skeptical of the places where Kennedy is drawing his most high-profile support. In the Daily Beast, Ben Burgess argued that legitimate scientists should debate RFK Jr. I'm not a fan of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., to put it mildly, Burgess said, and I'm in agreement with Hotez and Hassan on the value of vaccines in general and COVID vaccination in particular. I'm triple vaxxed, and if the CDC ever recommends that people in my age group get a fourth, fifth, or sixth shot, I'll get those too. But I think

Starting point is 00:09:56 what we can call the Hassan rule, that experts shouldn't debate cranks, is profoundly misguided. It matters what the public thinks, and it's important that policy debates be undergirded by a correct understanding of the underlying facts. If a large chunk of the public is in the grip of mistaken ideas about these issues, part of the job of experts is to wade in and correct those ideas, Burgess added. Of course, not every scientist is going to be a gifted scientific communicator, but that makes it more important that people like Hotez, who combine scientific expertise with a flair for communicating to the public, not shun debates with influential anti-vaxxers. The point isn't to convince Kennedy, it's to

Starting point is 00:10:35 convince the convincible portion of the audience, and it's not that hard to explain the way meta analysis of these studies disproves Kennedy. In the New Republic, Alex Shepard said don't debate RFK Jr. Hotez has offered to appear on Rogan's podcast but has rightfully refused to debate Kennedy on the issue. Given the popularity and influence of Rogan's show, there are persuasive arguments for appearing, if only to correct the wild statements that are frequently shared about not just the COVID-19 vaccine, but all vaccines. But appearing with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. would likely only legitimize those views, Shepard said. Kennedy has spent more than a decade spouting conspiracy theories with no basis in fact about vaccines. The goal of the debate is

Starting point is 00:11:17 not to hash out the truth or to finally decide if vaccines are safe and effective or not, Shepard said. Vaccines are safe and effective. This is settled science. The goal is to sow doubt and confusion over both settled science and the value of expertise, both in medicine and the wider world. Hotez is right to avoid it, but he is already paying the price. He says he was stalked on Sunday by anti-vax protesters who were waiting for him outside his Houston home. In Slate, Jacob Silverman wrote about what the powerful people boosting Kennedy really want. It's time to start paying attention to the Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr., according to some of the

Starting point is 00:11:54 wealthiest, most reactionary tech and business leaders in the country, Silverman quipped. Some of them might genuinely share his beliefs, particularly around the futility of the war in Ukraine and fears of tech censorship. But that doesn't suffice to explain why they would line up behind a figure who's been known up until this point largely for his anti-vaccine activism. These moguls may instead see RFK Jr. as a useful instrument for complicating Biden's re-election run. American elites and governing institutions have failed the public when not contributing to its outright exploitation, Silverman said. But RFK's most powerful backers are among the main beneficiaries of that unequal status quo, and their motivations deserve scrutiny. We should ask how they have become so wealthy and so powerful as to be able to help prop up two presidential campaigns as we near 2024.

Starting point is 00:12:45 to help prop up two presidential campaigns as we near 2024. After all, it shouldn't be long until David Sachs hosts another fundraiser for Ron DeSantis, the candidate he's long pushed. Which one does he really want to be president? All right, that is it for the leftist saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right argue that the mainstream media is trying to silence Kennedy. Some suggest that experts actually should engage him, given how much they've damaged the public's trust in institutions. Others suggest Kennedy represents the liberal yearning for a populist candidate. In the New York Post, Ashley Rinsberg said mainstream news outlets are trying to end RFK Jr.'s primary challenge. The strategy is to disqualify Kennedy by labeling him a font of misinformation out to serve America's moneyed

Starting point is 00:13:36 technocrats. In other words, a Republican in Kennedy clothes. The New York Times published a piece brimming with accusations and innuendo accusing Kennedy of pushing right-wing ideas and misinformation. The Times even claims Kennedy advanced the conspiracy theory by questioning the outcome of the 2004 Bush-Carrie election. Guess who else questioned the validity of that election, Rinsberg asked. The New York Times, in a lengthy November 2004 editorial. The Washington Post, MSNBC, Vanity Fair, Politico, Slate, The Guardian, and the Washington Monthly all got in on it. Outside of the media, however, serious people are beginning to take Kennedy seriously, Rinsberg wrote. Much of Kennedy's

Starting point is 00:14:15 appeal lies in his forthright approach to major issues, like his visit to the southern border this month, where he spoke directly with immigrants in Arizona. He strongly opposes American involvement in Ukraine, believes transgender athletes should not participate in female sports, and is harshly critical of America's intelligence community. The media onslaught is not only an attempt to derail Kennedy, but an easy way to deflect attention from the Dems' real campaign crisis, Biden's age, unfavorability, and chaos-plagued son. In his newsletter, Ben Shapiro wrote about why the science needs to debate RFK Jr. I understand why Hotez said he didn't want to debate RFK Jr., and it's not because all the facts are on RFK Jr.'s side, Shapiro wrote. It's because, very often, when you are debating

Starting point is 00:15:02 somebody like RFK Jr., he might start moving the goalposts, or he might just start moving from study to study. The reason this has become a hot topic is because Hotez is falling back on the same mask of authority the entire scientific establishment has used about a myriad of issues over the course of the last three years, and they've been wrong every time. But the reality is that somebody has to have this debate. If not Hotez, then he should name the person. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu,

Starting point is 00:15:35 a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu.

Starting point is 00:16:11 It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCcellvax.ca. There is no link between autism and vaccines, Shapiro says, but Hotez and his supporters think that because he is a doctor and the science is settled, this means they no longer have to debate the issue. But that's just not true. That is not the way human minds are changed. The underlying pervasive problem is that

Starting point is 00:16:46 the same exact people who are claiming the science is settled on vaccines are also claiming the science is settled on global warming, gender-affirming care, and universal masking for the COVID virus, and the science is not settled on any of those matters. This has reopened the door as to the need to debate all of these claims. In the New York Times, the conservative columnist Brett Stevens wrote about why he's cheering a candidate whose politics I detest and whose grip on reality I question. Kennedy is a crank. His long-ci self-enrichment scheme. He repeats Kremlin propaganda points like the notion that the war in Ukraine is actually a U.S. war against Russia, Stevens wrote. But Biden is a weak candidate against almost any Republican,

Starting point is 00:17:42 including Trump, and he's probably even weaker with Kamala Harris as his running mate. But there is a more powerful message implicit in Kennedy's candidacy, a profound undercurrent of discontent with a party that is losing touch with its once powerful, even dominant, populist roots, Stevens wrote. This is the party whose base has substantially shifted from the high school to the college educated, from factory floors and service jobs to breakout rooms on Zoom, from champions of free speech to promoters of speech codes and trigger warnings, from questioning authority, including scientific authority, to offering and demanding unblinking fidelity to it. America's spirit of rebellion now rests mainly on the Republican side with Trump, but there's an unfulfilled hunger for a liberal leader who can capture Kennedy's spirit without his folly.

Starting point is 00:18:37 All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So listening to RFK Jr.'s interview on Rogan, I very much get his appeal. He is a modern-day populist, perfectly fit for the progressive ideology or politically homeless people who loathe the establishment left and think the right has gone off the deep end. He can speak eloquently about regulatory capture, government agencies owned by private industry, open-mindedness, the need for debate and curiosity, rebuilding the middle class, focusing our resources domestically, free speech absolutism, a loathing of censorship in all forms,

Starting point is 00:19:17 and distrusting the establishment, follow the money, be skeptical of the powerful. Frankly, those are talking points that resonate with me, and my politics are just all over the place. I also think it makes sense that Kennedy is who he is. Imagine, his father, Robert F. Kennedy, was assassinated at a moment when it appeared he would become the next president. His uncle, John F. Kennedy, was assassinated while president. Kennedy, like most Americans, believes Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone in the JFK assassination. He believes the CIA was behind it. His life has been a series of traumas since. He fought addiction as an adult, eventually getting busted for heroin possession while working

Starting point is 00:19:57 as an assistant district attorney in Manhattan. His second wife killed herself while going through the divorce proceedings. His work as a lawyer has focused on seemingly unwinnable but sometimes victorious battles against corporate behemoths polluting natural resources or representing clients whose lives have been ruined by some big immovable societal issue. In the interview with Rogan, he described one of his books on vaccines as so depressing that he advised his wife not to read it. All the while, he has been attacked by popular politicians, media figures, and his own family basically any time he's opened his mouth. Is it any wonder someone like him is skeptical, or to be pejorative, even conspiratorial? Is it a mystery as to why he distrusts authority to the degree he does? Would you not share that sentiment

Starting point is 00:20:43 if you were in his shoes? As others have pointed out, Kennedy is a lawyer, not a scientist. His framework for these discussions is to win the argument and represent his side, which he is very good at. To take his most controversial and commonly cited argument, when you listen to him describe exploding rates of autism coming at a time when vaccine schedules were being mandated, with a side of big pharma greed and government mistrust, it's easy to believe the story he's telling. It's also emotionally satisfying to have a villain, especially when he references secretly recorded meetings of pharma executives admitting some vaccines are dangerous or the way toxic mercury in vaccines can damage someone's brain. What he doesn't do is confront the less nefarious, more commonly accepted explanations for what he's observing. I reached out to a half

Starting point is 00:21:30 dozen vaccine experts from across the world with various political and university associations to ask them to respond to Kennedy's assertions. Dr. Brian Ward, who researches vaccine development at McGill University, neatly summed up his position with this sentence, quote, one of the only potential factors that has been well studied and ruled out as a contributor to the possible rise in autism rates is vaccines, he said. As Ward noted to me, a huge number of other things have also changed since the time period Kennedy points to, whether it's our discontinued use of leaded gasoline or increased adoption of baby formula or cornflakes consumption, anyone could point to a variety of possible correlations. But the correlative increases don't confer causal relationships.

Starting point is 00:22:17 Other experts I reach out to cited a number of factors at play. One theory involves the age of new fathers going up. Some believe rates of air pollution, low birth weight, or stress contribute. As Ben Shapiro noted in his newsletter, we also know there is a genetic component. The most commonly accepted explanation for the majority of the increase simply involves the tests and frameworks we use to confirm a diagnosis, and the incentives to diagnose autism in the first place. My cousin, a doctor in Seattle who has been recognized for his treatment of neurological conditions, pointed out to me that the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM, didn't even have autism as

Starting point is 00:22:56 its own diagnosis until 1980. Before that, autism was explained by poor parenting skills or childhood schizophrenia, so you'd naturally expect rates to go up when actual diagnoses are defined. What's more, we have far from settled on best practices for identifying autism, which comes out when we see huge disparities between states. Why, for instance, would autism impact 1 in 93 children in Colorado, but 1 in 4 in New Jersey? And no, it's not their vaccination rates, which are nearly identical. That's to say nothing of the fact that in 1991, an autism diagnosis became a way for children to get special education services, which created a strong

Starting point is 00:23:38 incentive for parents to diagnose their kids themselves. All of these things are likely to be huge factors in the autism epidemic Kennedy describes, yet he doesn't convincingly address any of them. He's performing the kind of argument by omission that I plan to discuss in tomorrow's piece on the anatomy of bad arguments. All of this, as Sturgis notes under what the left is saying, isn't that hard to explain. I don't have a science degree, and I'm open-minded enough to believing all sorts of outlandish fringe things. Long-time readers know I'm a lover of UFO conspiracy theories, especially the most recent ones. I listened to Kennedy's entire podcast with Rogan

Starting point is 00:24:15 and had quite a few, huh, that is interesting moments. And then I heard from some experts, looked up some of the claims online, read about the counterarguments, and thought, huh, that stuff is a lot less interesting now. Which is precisely why I also think people like Hotez should debate Kennedy. Hotez isn't just the perfect candidate to step into the fray because he is a respected vaccine scientist who has already been on Rogan's show. He is also the father of a daughter with autism and the author of a book titled Vaccines Did Not Cause Rachel's Autism, My Journey as a Vaccine Scientist, Pediatrician, and Autism Dad. Who better to actually challenge Kennedy on his views? I can't say why Hotez won't. He said a Rogan-moderated debate with RFK Jr. would be like going on Jerry Springer,

Starting point is 00:25:02 even though every Rogan podcast I've ever listened to, including the ones he's appeared on, have been respectful and curious. But I can say he should. Sure, Kennedy might firehose nonsense and Rogan might moderate such a conversation with favoritism, but guess what? You don't need to convince Joe Rogan, you need to convince the people his show is reaching. Saying the science is settled over and over, censoring YouTube content, smearing people as quacks, and refusing to have the discussion doesn't actually elucidate the subject or change anyone's minds. It does the opposite. It makes normal people wonder, what are they hiding? And it makes the roughly one in five Americans who are already deeply skeptical of many vaccinations even more gung-ho, which may explain why Kennedy's interview with Jordan Peterson that was removed from

Starting point is 00:25:50 YouTube now has over 4.2 million views on Twitter, more than eight times the viewership of the most popular video Peterson has done in the last month. Kennedy's mistrust of the establishment makes him right a lot of the time. He is right about regulatory capture. He's right about the sometimes backward motivations of big pharma. He's right that unbridled capitalism can worsen the lives of average people and destroy the environment. He is right that we have chronically sick people in our population. He's right that vaccines can sometimes harm people, that our vaccine injury reporting system is lackluster, and that big pharma is largely shielded from downstream liability. But that same mistrust makes him wrong about a lot too.

Starting point is 00:26:33 We haven't even talked about his claim that Wi-Fi is bad for you. op-eds, and pejorative labels in the world won't expose this unless we're willing to concede why his popularity is growing, talk about what he gets right, and then explain why he's wrong about so much else. Hiding, dismissing, censoring, or ignoring him will only make his you and me against the establishment appeal more alluring, and his misleading views seem more credible. and his misleading views seem more credible. All right, that is it for my take. If you appreciated my take, feel free to give this podcast a share,

Starting point is 00:27:15 spread the word. We need your support as always. We are skipping today's reader question because my take in this piece in general got pretty long, which is what happens when you have to talk about things like vaccines, which are complicated. But we are going to jump in next with our blind spot report. A quick reminder, we present the blind spot report from our partners at Ground News, an app that tells you the bias of news coverage and what stories people on each side are missing. The left missed a story this week about the national debt hitting $32 trillion just weeks after the debt ceiling deal. The right missed a story this week about the national debt hitting $32 trillion just weeks after the debt ceiling deal.

Starting point is 00:27:47 The right missed a story about California Governor Gavin Newsom's plan to roll back access to police misconduct records. Alright, next up is our numbers section. is our numbers section. The percentage of American adults who think the benefits of the childhood vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella outweigh the risk is 88%, according to Pew. The percentage of American adults who say the benefits of COVID-19 vaccines outweigh the risk is 62%. The percentage of American adults who have said no to the COVID-19 vaccines altogether is 21%. In 2017, the percentage of American adults who said healthy children should be required to be vaccinated to attend public schools because of the potential risk of others was 82%. In 2023, that percentage was just 70%. The percentage of U.S. adults who

Starting point is 00:28:39 did not get a COVID-19 vaccine but who see the overall benefits of childhood vaccines for MMR is 74%. All right, that is it for our numbers section, which brings us to last but not least, our have a nice day story. In Vietnam, a woman who was left on a doorstep as a child has devoted her life to the care and support of orphans. Hoan Tuen Hong, whom national media has dubbed the Mother Teresa of Vietnam, runs the Mother Hong

Starting point is 00:29:09 Foundation, a nonprofit organization dedicated to the adoption, support, and free offering of loving-kindness to foundlings, orphans, and homeless children. Hong, who doesn't know her parents or when she was born, was cared for as a child by an old homeless woman who dedicated what was left of her life's energies toward trying to help her find a home. But when she did, Hwang's adoptees turned out to be sexual predators. Hwang fled, her life becoming a string of vagabondry, until the age of 19 when she found a baby girl left on her own doorstep. She adopted the baby girl and devoted her life to caring for the less fortunate. Now, thanks to support given by donors and volunteers, her foundation cares for

Starting point is 00:29:51 346 children who are all able to receive education, safe places to sleep and play, and the proper medical care to ensure they reach adulthood healthy. Good News Network has this remarkable story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, please go to retangle.com slash membership. And a quick reminder, if you want to hear from us before Monday, you need to become a Tangle member so you can get our newsletter tomorrow. Don't forget, if you want to also enter the contest for the event, you can do that by going to our newsletter or our website or checking out the link in our episode description. We'll be back here on Monday.

Starting point is 00:30:34 Have a great weekend. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by Zosia Warpea. Our script is edited by Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and Bailey Saul. Shout out to our interns, Audrey Moorhead and Watkins Kelly, and our social media manager, Magdalena Vakova, who created our podcast logo. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more from Tangle, check out our website at www.tangle.com. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis We'll be right back. his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada,

Starting point is 00:31:54 which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older Thank you.

Tangle - The RFK Jr. and Joe Rogan interview.

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