Tangle - The second Republican debate.

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

The second Republican debate. On Wednesday night, seven Republican candidates for president participated in the second Republican debate at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California.You can read today's podcast ⁠here⁠ and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠. You can also check out our latest YouTube video ⁠here⁠.Today’s clickables: Quick hits (1:22), Today’s story (3:10), Doug Burgum (4:50), Tim Scott (6:48), Chris Christie (8:54), Mike Pence (11:04), Nikki Haley (13:23), Vivek Ramaswamy (15:25), Ron DeSantis (17:42), Left’s take (19:48), Right’s take (22:50), Isaac’s take (25:49), Announcements (31:58), Numbers (33:03), Have a nice day (33:51)Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, back on the microphone today. I want to give a big thank you to John for filling in for me the last couple of days. I had a crazy week. Went out to Los Angeles, went to an event being hosted by Represent Us, the American Democracy Summit, and I got to speak on a panel about civics and getting Americans, especially younger Americans, a little more engaged. It was fun. Got to rub shoulders

with a lot of big politicos in this space and met some super interesting people and flew back to Philadelphia this morning on a red-eye flight. So I am exhausted and desperate for sleep, but got to stay up late last night watching the Republican debate, the second Republican primary debate, which we are going to talk about today. Before we jump in, though, we're going to kick things off with some quick hits. First up, the federal investigation into President Biden's handling of classified documents has turned into a sprawling examination of Obama-era security protocols. Number two, a federal judge overseeing former President Trump's election interference trial denied his request to recuse herself. Number three, U.S. crude oil posted its biggest price jump since May and is now at the

highest price it's been this year. Number four, North Korea released Travis King, the 23-year-old U.S. soldier who crossed the demilitarized zone separating North and South Korea. King was released into custody of Swedish officials. Number five, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy rejected a short-term Senate proposal to fund the government, increasing the chances of a shutdown beginning this weekend. Seven Republican presidential candidates facing off in a contentious and at times chaotic debate. The frontrunner, former President Trump, skipping the showdown to campaign in Michigan. Donald Trump is missing in action.

He should be on this stage tonight. He owes it to you to defend his record where they added $7.8 trillion to the debt. Donald, I know you're watching. You can't help yourself. You're not here tonight because you're afraid of being on the stage and defending your record. You keep doing that, no one up here is going to call you Donald Trump anymore. We're going to call you Donald Duck. Have Ukraine that's a green light to China to take Taiwan.

A win for Russia is a win for China. But I forgot, you like China. Honestly, every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber for what you say. On Wednesday night, seven Republican candidates for president participated in the second Republican debate at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. To qualify for the debate, candidates needed at least 3% support in two national polls or 3% support in one national poll and two polls from four of the early voting states. That's New Hampshire, Iowa, Nevada, and South Carolina. Additionally, candidates needed at least 50,000 unique donors to qualify, with at least 200 donors coming from

20 states or territories. All seven candidates signed a pledge to support the party's eventual nominee. Seven of the eight candidates from the first debate qualified. Only Asa Hutchinson, the former governor of Arkansas, missed the cut. The first Republican primary is now four months away. Former President Donald Trump, who is leading primary polls by a wide margin, once again skipped this debate. Instead, he was holding campaign events in Michigan, a battleground state. During the debate,

candidates discussed autoworkers who were on strike, healthcare, education, rising foreign threats, the border, LGBT issues, and parental rights, among other things. Given the breadth of the topics and the people to cover, we're going to get out of our typical format today as we did for the first debate. Instead, we'll highlight each candidate from least to most popular in polling positions, briefly recap their highs and lows from the night, and then share some views from the right and the left, and then my take. So first up, we're going to start with Doug Burgum. He is currently polling a 0.9%. Burgum, the 67-year-old governor of North Dakota, once again played a minor role in the debate,

but he attempted to assert his position on a number of issues early on, particularly the autoworker strike, energy policy, and child care costs. He repeatedly turned to his record as governor and experience in the technology sector when asked how he would address various national issues, and he often alluded to a belief in states' rights as the foundation of his political views. He largely avoided combative back-and-forth exchanges with other candidates on the stage, though he was more prone to interrupting than he had been during the first debate. Some notable moments for Doug Burgum included discussion on the auto workers' strike, when Burgum pointed to the Biden administration's subsidies for electric vehicles as a driving cause, saying that workers are striking because of Biden's interference with capital markets. He criticized the administration for subsidizing the production of electric vehicles, calling it a misuse of taxpayer money. On rising

healthcare costs, he returned to his comments on electric vehicles, arguing that the federal government has decided to pick winners and losers in the industry to the detriment of consumers. When asked about competition between the U.S. and China in agricultural production, Brigham said the two countries are in a cold war, but Biden won't admit it, adding that the president's weak foreign policy stances are making the country less safe. In virtually every answer he gave, Burgum returned to his record as governor, touting the state's outcomes in areas like education, crime, and energy costs as a model for the rest of the country to follow. He also positioned the state as ahead of the curve on national issues. In North Dakota, we knew that the cliff was coming, he said about rising

child care costs, and so guess what? We planned. Despite his attempts to assert himself on the stage, Burgum frequently needed to interject to comment on many of the topics, and the moderators eventually began cutting him off before he could complete his answer. began cutting him off before he could complete his answer. All right, that is it for Doug Burgum, which brings us to Tim Scott, who's now polling at 2.7% in the polls. Scott, the 57-year-old South Carolina senator, presented mostly party-line positions on securing the southern border, promoting tax cuts, and reining in federal spending. He also leaned into his sense of personal optimism, trumpeting his own story as proof of the American dream and his belief that despite past racial discrimination, America is not a racist country. However, in a change of direction

from the first debate, Scott was unafraid to spar with the other candidates, calling out Vivek Ramaswamy and Nikki Haley specifically. Some notable moans for him included at the beginning of the debate, Scott coming out focused on criticizing Joe Biden. Every county is now a border county, he said, arguing that Biden should have gone to the border instead of participating in the United Autoworkers strike. Later, Scott blamed high child care costs on Biden's Build Back Better plan. In response to Ramaswamy's statement at the last debate that the other candidates were bought and paid for, Scott turned to Ramaswamy and criticized him for being in business with the Chinese Communist Party. He dug in further to Ramaswamy's attempt to brush off his claims, continuing to

interrupt and antagonize him as Ramaswamy attempted to defend his record. On foreign policy, Scott defended supporting Ukraine by emphasizing that 90% of our aid is offered through a NATO-backed loan and said that our national vital interest is in degrading the Russian military. He also touted his service on the Senate Armed Services Committee and legislation he's written to freeze Mexican cartel accounts and seize their assets. After being prompted to explain to former South Carolina Governor Haley why he should be president over her, he delivered his answer directly to Haley, saying he would rein in spending, stimulate manufacturing job growth, and unleash our energy resources. He revisited this exchange at an awkward moment later, criticizing Haley for having curtains

that were too expensive in her UN ambassador residence. At times, Scott seemed to struggle to interject himself. Though his microphone appeared to be temporarily cut off, he could be heard sarcastically asking the moderators if they were having trouble seeing him raise his hand to respond. All right, next up is Chris Christie, who is now polling 2.9% in the polls. Christie, the 60-year-old former governor of New Jersey, continued to position himself as the candidate most willing to directly criticize Donald Trump. Christie's speaking time again outpaced his poll numbers, and he capitalized on openings to go criticize Donald Trump. Christie's speaking time again outpaced his poll numbers and he capitalized on openings to go after President Trump. Otherwise, Christie gave answers

that reflected the general party line on issues like the border, saying he'd sign an executive order to send the National Guard to secure it, and on artificial intelligence, saying that the government does not need to stand in the way of innovation. Some notable moments for Christie. To start off the debate performance, Christie hammered both Biden and Trump, saying that each administration added to the national debt, that Trump added $7 trillion to the national debt, and that the Biden administration put another $5 trillion on and counting. Christie also criticized both Biden and Trump for hiding, saying that Joe Biden is hiding in his basement and that Donald Trump is ducking debates and accountability so much that people will start calling him Donald Duck. Christie was boastful

of his record in a blue state, bragging that his office set arrest records when he was U.S. attorney in New Jersey and that he was reelected with 61% of the vote and won over 70% of independent voters. Once again, Christie led the way in going after Trump, attacking the former president for calling Putin a brilliant and great leader, even though he murdered people and Russia was murdering innocent civilians in Ukraine and was kidnapping 20,000 Ukrainian children. When each candidate refused to write down the name of a candidate they would vote off the island in the primary, Christie was willing to tell the moderators that he would vote Donald Trump off the island. Displaying a generally casual and off-the-cuff speaking style, Chrissy had moments on the stage that seemed to play well.

He received some cheers and laughs when he chided that Mexico may have paid for Trump's border wall if they had known he would only construct 52 miles of it, and when he told Vivek Ramaswamy to put his hand down for a second while he was speaking. One low moment for Chrissy came when he awkwardly accused Joe Biden of, quote, sleeping with someone in the teachers union, an apparent reference to his wife, Jill Biden. Also, after being asked to write the name of a competitor they'd vote off, Chrissy appeared to start to write a name before shaking his head no when the other candidates refused to play along. All right, that is it for Chris Chr Christie, which brings us to Mike Pence, who is now polling 4.6% in the polls. Pence, the 64-year-old former vice president and governor of Indiana,

had a more subdued night compared to his relatively fiery performance in the first debate, during which he spoke the most of any candidate. In the second debate, he described himself as the only person on stage with the depth of experience across multiple branches of government to understand how to successfully lead the country and touted the record of the Trump administration on issues like energy and the economy. He juxtaposed his resume with others on the stage, once again singling out Vivek Ramaswamy as too inexperienced to be president. On specific policy questions, though, he regularly changed the topic without giving an answer or pivoted to earlier questions that he preferred to discuss. Some notable moments for Pence included the fact that he came prepared with a number of one-liners off the bat, including a comment that President

Biden doesn't belong on a picket line, he belongs on the unemployment line, an apparent reference to Biden's visit to the UAW strike. He took frequent shots at the Biden administration's economic policy, arguing that they were leading the country in the wrong direction in every way. In a strange moment, Pence responded to a question about repealing the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare, by circling back to an earlier question posed to another candidate about mass shootings in the United States. Pence said the solution he would prioritize as president would be expediting the death penalty for mass shooters as a measure of deterrence, and he seemed to imply that DeSantis

was not doing enough on this issue in his state of Florida, saying it is unconscionable that the Parkland shooter is actually going to spend the rest of his life behind bars in Florida. Pence was also asked two pointed questions about how he would protect the LGBT community from violent attacks and why Latino voters seemed distrustful of the GOP. He responded in both cases by saying that he wanted to continue to build bridges to every community in this country, while also noting the economic gains made by Latinos during the Trump administration. He quickly moved on from the LGBT question, though, pivoting to talking about parental rights and education. After Ramaswamy suggested that U.S.

military support for Ukraine is causing Russia to deepen its ties with China, Pence went on the attack, interjecting to say that if the United States were to stop supporting Ukraine and permit a Russian victory, it would be a green light to China to invade Taiwan. Nikki Haley is now polling 6.3% in the polls. Haley, the 51-year-old former ambassador to the United Nations, appeared to be the most willingly confrontational of the candidates on stage, picking fights with Tim Scott, Ron DeSantis, and especially Vivek Ramaswamy. Haley also railed against both Biden and Trump, saying that Biden's statements waived the green flag for migrants to come to the United States' southern border, and that Trump was wrong in how he chose to stand up to China. Haley notably criticized runaway health care costs

and failing public education, arguing the orthodox conservative position that parental rights and school choice are necessary fixes. Some notable moments included when she showed a genuine dislike for Ramaswamy. Haley once again went out of her way to confront him. Every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber, Haley told Ramaswamy in response to his answer about creating a TikTok account, adding that we can't trust you. She also claimed that Ramaswamy only abandoned his business pursuits in China right before deciding to run for president. In response to a question on energy policy, Haley said that energy security is national security and attacked DeSantis for banning fracking and offshore drilling in Florida. When the governor defended the decisions and said

they were a constitutional amendment that the voters decided, Haley doubled down, arguing rightly that DeSantis made the decision before the vote. On China, Haley said that Trump was wrong to focus on trade, instead emphasizing that we should confront China on buying U.S. farmland, on killing Americans through the manufacture of fentanyl, stealing $6 billion in intellectual property, putting a base in Cuba, and manufacturing air surveillance drones. The moderators pitted the two South Carolinians against one another, asking Scott to explain to Haley why he deserved to be promoted to president before her. Haley initially got the last words in the exchange, saying that Scott increased spending in the national debt for 12 years while in Congress. When Scott rekindled the debate later, she was unfazed, saying, bring it, Tim,

before getting drawn into an awkward and heated back and forth over the cost of curtains in her U.N. ambassador residence. All right, next up is Vivek Ramaswamy, who's now pulling 6.3% in the polls. Ramaswamy, the 38-year-old entrepreneur, was attacked the most of any candidate by a significant margin, mirroring the dynamics of the first debate. He often found himself in the middle of heated exchanges with the likes of Haley, Scott, and Pence, in which multiple candidates were speaking over each other in an attempt to have the last word. Ramaswami spoke the second most of the group, though his time in the spotlight tended to come in bursts. While others leveled criticism at Trump or avoided talking about him altogether, Ramaswami continued to praise the former president, though he also made a concerted effort

to differentiate his campaign from Trump's. Some notable moments for Ramaswami included when he expressed sympathy for autoworkers on strike, describing them as hard workers that were struggling to make ends meet because of bad policies coming from the White House. He reiterated his stance on using the military to secure the U.S.- Mexico border and fight the cartels, while jumping at opportunities to define his position on social issues, saying, for example, that transgenderism is a mental health disorder. As in the first debate, Ramaswamy's answers frequently built on the notion of restoring values like hard work, shared purpose, and love of country as the bedrock of American society. He said that most of the

country holds these values, but a fringe minority in the Democratic Party has steered us away from them. The attacks came early and often from all sides, with Haley as Ramaswamy's main detractor. A new line of criticism, aside from his purported inexperience and lack of knowledge about foreign policy topics, centered on his recent decision to join TikTok. Haley slammed Ramaswamy for using the platform and suggested he was a hypocrite for claiming social media was causing a youth mental health crisis while also leveraging one of the most destructive platforms to benefit his campaign. Ramaswamy responded that he was the only Republican candidate reaching the next generation of young Americans where they are and called on his fellow candidates to focus on policy issues rather than personal attacks. While Ramaswamy maintained his

cheery demeanor for most of the night, he did seem genuinely frustrated at points by repeated interruptions during his responses, which led to one humorous slip-up that quickly made the rounds on social media. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in

your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. Some of us are tainted with bottom line. Excuse me. Thank you for speaking while I'm interrupting. Literally. You said bottom line. All right, that is it for Ramaswamy, which brings us to Ron DeSantis. DeSantis is now pulling 13.8% in the polls. After a slow start to the debate in which he was overshadowed by other candidates, DeSantis seized on a number of opportunities in the second hour to drive the discussion on topics like China, economic policy, and education. The 45-year-old governor of Florida came under attack

more than he had in the first debate, but mostly shrugged off any barbs that came his way, pivoting to his record as governor to back up his conservative credentials. He also criticized Trump by name multiple times after avoiding any reference to the former president in the first debate, particularly on the issues of abortion. DeSantis made border security one of the key issues of the night, remarking on several occasions that on his first day in office as president, we're going to declare it a national emergency. He also said he would finish Trump's border wall and reinstate the remain in Mexico policy. Nikki Haley accused DeSantis of banning fracking in Florida during a discussion on U.S. energy policy, and the two engaged in an extended back and forth

where DeSantis called Haley's claims not true and alluded to a plan for U.S. energy independence that he would enact as president. When pressed on the question of why Florida has some of the highest insurance costs of any state, DeSantis sidestepped, alluding to a popular boom and pointing to the state's low unemployment rate as evidence that residents were doing well. He also made a comment about how Florida would make economic opportunities available to everyone but would not provide an expansive safety net like California and have massive numbers of people on government programs without work requirements. When candidates were asked to write down someone on the stage they

would vote off the campaign trail for the Republican nomination in a survivor-style exercise, DeSantis quickly interjected and said the question was a distraction and disrespectful to the candidates. It was one of his strongest soundbites of the night, and he capitalized on the moment to make his closing statement to voters, which other candidates were not able to do before the debate ended. DeSantis had similarly shut down a question from moderators in the first debate about whether the candidates believed in human-caused climate change. All right, that is it for our roundups of each individual candidates, which brings us to our what the left and right are saying sections. These are a little abbreviated today, but we're going to start with what the left is saying. The left sees the debate as inconsequential in the

grand scheme of the Republican primary. Some took aim at the candidates' answers to economic questions, arguing they revealed a flawed understanding of issues like autoworkers and their strike. Others say none of the candidates did anything to challenge Trump's position in the race. In MSNBC, Zisheen Alim wrote about how the debate exposed the phony populism of the right. When discussing the United Autoworkers strike, each candidate pivoted from the strike to unrelated issues, all of which inevitably rested on the idea that everything was President Joe Biden's fault. Not a single one of them criticized the chief culprits, the corporations exploiting their workers. And not a single one of them acknowledged the role that union power could play in helping workers achieve their goals of

higher pay, better worker conditions, and stronger job security. The consecutive whiffs illustrated the phony populism of the right. It's a lot of hand-waving about workers and then a series of diversions from the real sources and the real solutions to their problems, which in turn serves to preserve the economic status quo. The Republican impulse to try to nail Biden for higher inflation is an attempt to exploit the public's reasonable concern about the rise in prices of goods in recent years. But it's not a serious attempt to assess why autoworkers' wages are so low compared to where they could and should be. Neither was Trump's address in Michigan on Wednesday night, ostensibly to autoworkers but given at a non-union factory with statements like, I don't think you're picketing

for the right thing, Aleem said. If Republicans were sincere about supporting workers, they'd support union power and call out corporate greed. Their answers revealed that they're not. In the Washington Post, Karen Tumulty said the pointless debate underscores Trump's dominance. It's probably time to acknowledge that presidential debates are pointless when the frontrunner repeatedly refuses to show up. If any of the rest of the Republican field is going to achieve a breakout and rise as a credible primary challenger to Donald Trump, the kids' table is not where it's going to happen. There were at least a few engaging subplots in the first GOP debate last month in Milwaukee, notably former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley's poise and entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy's obnoxiousness. But the second one Wednesday night at the Ronald Reagan Presidential

Library amounted to little more than a blur. Trump's absence left the seven candidates on stage here talking over each other and repeating shopworn lines from their stump speeches. For most of the night, there was little by way of substantive engagement with each other or, more important, any explanation of why any of them would be better alternative than the former president. At some point, somebody among Trump's primary opponents may find a way to show that kind of boldness that Reagan did in his own debate performances. But it's hard to see how that can happen on a debate stage Trump isn't standing on, which is all you need to know about why the former president wasn't there. All right, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying.

The right is mostly unimpressed by the debate as a whole, though they don't think any of the candidates had a bad night. Some wonder why the group seemed reluctant to go after Trump despite his massive lead in the polls. Others criticize the moderator's questions but otherwise think the debate amounted to nothing. The Wall Street Journal editorial board said the candidates let Trump off the hook. The debate participants put on a good show that gave voters an insight into how they think and what they believe. But their main oversight continues to be that with rare exceptions, they are giving Mr. Trump a pass. The candidates are all fighting to become the alternative to Mr. Trump, who is leading in the polls by 30 or more points over his nearest challenger, the board said, and no one is going to become a credible alternative fighting about curtains at the United Nations. Sooner or later, the candidates have to persuade

voters that they would be better as the Republican nominee than Mr. Trump with a better chance of winning and then governing for four years more effectively than the chaotic former president. No doubt the candidates are wary of offending MAGA voters, but it's possible to challenge Mr. Trump's record without sounding like the left-wing scolds at CNN or MSNBC. One obvious way is to describe his losing election record since 2016. Another is to draw policy distinctions. Taking on Mr. Trump might also be the best way to stand out from the crowd and demonstrate the fighting spirit that GOP voters say they want in a nominee. Perhaps the moderators of the next debate will pose the question of Mr. Trump more assertively to the candidates. He's the elephant not in the room, and it is no service to voters

to ignore him until a week before the Iowa caucuses in January. In The Hill, Derek Hunter said everyone lost the second debate, especially the audience. Everyone was forgettable except the moderators who were horrible. Stuart Varney of Fox Business asked a question that would have been right at home on MSNBC, all about CEO pay versus UAW line worker pay. Then there was a question about the federal government and child care, not food or gas prices, but child care. Here's a hint, people who want the government to pay for the care of their kids are not likely to be voting in the Republican primary. Then came the gun violence question and the utterly bogus slavery question about Florida education from

the Univision anchor. That one might as well have been planted by the DNC, Hunter said. Ultimately, as any debate with that many people participating would be, it was a mess. The GOP really needs to set the bar higher to eliminate candidates whose campaigns are more vanity projects than anything else. Four should be the number and only one moderator. Most of the answers on the issues when they got around to talking about issues voters cared about were solid from all the candidates. They really don't disagree much. There was some sniping, especially at the end, but it came off as petty and personal, which didn't really leave any marks on anyone, Hunter wrote. And that was the story of this debate. It just happened. It was nothing special.

All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So, you know it's trouble for the candidates on stage when all the talk after the debate is about things other than what they did or said. In the case of last night, the media frenzy was buzzing about the ad Joe Biden ran during a commercial break on Fox News, California Governor Gavin Newsom in the spin room, Trump's quip at the event in Michigan that there weren't any vice presidents on the stage, and Dana Perino's question, which was shot down by the candidates, in which she tried to get everyone to write down one candidate to vote off the island. But there was very little buzz about any of the candidates doing anything to legitimately position themselves as contenders. So here's a reality

check. Donald Trump is now polling at 54%, two percentage points higher than when he skipped the first debate in August. The seven candidates on stage combined mustered just 37% support from Republican voters, which is still 16% lower than Trump. Nobody has ever lost a primary after holding a lead like Trump has now. It seems extraordinarily unlikely to me that this will change with this race. Still, the debate happened, and it was a mess. The candidates spent most of the night talking or yelling over each other, and the moderators repeatedly had to threaten to cut off their microphones and remind the speakers they were wasting time by interrupting. There was a bizarre mood on stage where everyone oscillated from complimenting each other, there was lots of

talk about how much respect they all had for everyone else on the stage, to bitter attacks and personal barbs. Similar to the first debate, all the candidates had their knives out for Vivek Ramaswamy, Nikki Haley talked the most about real policy. Chris Christie spent the night hammering Trump. Doug Burgum mostly disappeared. Mike Pence tried to distance himself from Trump while celebrating all of the Trump-era accomplishments. And Tim Scott shared his typical uplifting view of America.

Perhaps the only notable difference was Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who last night seemed to seize the opportunity in a way he hadn't during the first debate. DeSantis got to talk a lot about his conservative policy achievements in Florida, highlighting his action on COVID-19 and parental rights, as well as his ability to actually win elections and appeal to different cohorts of voters like independents and Hispanics. To me, it looked a lot like the kind of night he could have used in August, when far more people were watching and the race still seemed like a race. He also did something he avoided in the first debate. He actually attacked Trump, the leading candidate. Donald Trump is missing in action, he said. He should be on this stage tonight. Afterward, DeSantis

challenged Trump to a one-on-one debate moderated by Sean Hannity, a media-savvy move that positioned himself as the main competition and as the off-chance, albeit very small, of drawing Trump out of hiding. It was the stuff he should have done months ago but didn't, and I suspect it's too late to make much of a difference now. I thought Haley was strong again too. I've said this before and last night reaffirmed it. If Republicans want to win a general election against Biden, I think she's the obvious choice. Not for nothing, but I actually posited this idea to a few Democratic activists and campaign workers last night, and I got unified agreement. Trust me when I tell you, Democrats are hoping Trump wins the primary, and I honestly

don't know why his competition doesn't talk more about that reality. Haley has the experience and the message. She's more moderate than the other candidates on social issues, but also more realistic on foreign policy. She polls better than Trump against Biden, and she can truly hold her own on the policy debates. Her biggest flaw is that she can be a tad bit boring, which matters in what is by definition a popularity contest. That is probably why she came out so aggressive last night, and at one point she told Ramaswamy, every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber. That's not a particularly appealing line of attack to me, but is the punchy kind of cheap politics that can fire up voters and make her seem less boring.

Speaking of Ramaswamy, I still think he is mostly selling snake oil, and it continues to strike me that all of his policy solutions seem half-baked if you think about them for more than a brief moment. Nearly all of his ideas boil down to abolish this government agency, which is both totally unrealistic and completely unproductive. Cutting the federal workforce is one thing, but promising voters you're going to fire millions of people from their jobs and everything will run better is selling a fantasy. The list of federal agencies Ramaswamy has promised to abolish now includes the Department of Education, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the Internal Revenue Service, and the FBI. It shouldn't be necessary to point out that abolishing agencies overseeing public

schools, terrorism, and law agencies, overseeing public schools, terrorism, and law enforcement, regulating guns and tobacco, and collecting taxes isn't going to make the government function better. But Ramaswamy is a relative nobody who has now risen to third in the polls, so maybe I'm the thick one. As Noah Smith put it, Ramaswamy's ideas just make no sense. Take the IRS one alone. Getting rid of the IRS would, of course, lead to a complete collapse of the U.S. tax revenue, Smith wrote. In addition to making Social Security and Medicare recipients incredibly mad and causing the GOP to lose power for an entire generation, this would collapse defense spending and leave the U.S. without a functional military. I don't think it's that complicated, but here we are. Anyway, it's

hard to know how much of any of this matters since Trump seems destined, barring a prison sentence, to end up as the nominee. It's still hard to believe after everything that happened during his administration and the string of losses Republicans have endured under his stewardship that the primary seems preordained four months before anyone casts a vote. But the polling says that pretty clearly, and historically it has been pretty reliable. At this point, I think it's time for Burgum, Christie, Scott, and Pence to just bow out. This is effectively a four-person race. Trump, DeSantis, Haley, and Ramaswamy. And it's probably more like three when you consider Ramaswamy as auditioning for vice president.

If we narrowed the pool, which I hope we do, maybe things would get more interesting. But nobody seems keen on budging yet. All right, that is it for my take. A couple quick heads up before we move on. Tomorrow, we're going to be publishing an interview in our subscribers only Friday edition. I sat down with Nick Toriano, a civic entrepreneur and the executive director of United America to talk about his solutions to the problems with American elections today. He made a pretty strong case to me. It was a super interesting conversation and he's doing a lot of work to actually make a difference. He's not just talking about it. He's walking the walk. So if you want to get that interview in your inbox,

you can go to readtangle.com forward slash membership and become a member. Also a heads up that we have a new YouTube video that just came out this morning. It's about the Senate dress code and Lauren Boebert's conduct and generally what we should expect from members of Congress

and how to approach their conduct more broadly. I broke down some arguments about decorum from the left and the right, and then I shared my take. That video is on our YouTube channel, which you can find by looking up Tangle News on YouTube. All right, next up is our numbers section. Ron DeSantis' total speaking time during the debate was 12 minutes and 27 seconds. That's the most of any candidate and over two minutes more than he spoke in the first debate. Mike Pence's total speaking time was nine minutes and 50 seconds, third to last out of the seven candidates and nearly three minutes less than he spoke in the

first debate. The amount of time at border security was discussed during the debate was five minutes and 50 seconds. The amount of time government spending was discussed was four minutes and 46 seconds. The number of times Joe Biden was attacked during the debate was 24. The number of times Donald Trump was attacked during the debate was 13. The number of times Vivek Ramaswamy was attacked during the debate was nine, and that was the most of any candidate on stage. All right, next up is our have a nice day section. NASA astronaut Frank Rubio returned to Earth early yesterday, ending a nearly year-long stay aboard the International Space Station that broke the record for longest trip to space. During his mission, Rubio spent many hours conducting scientific study ranging from plant research to physical sciences. He completed approximately

5,936 Earth orbits on a journey of more than 157 million miles. That's roughly 328 trips to the moon and back. Following his landing in a remote area in Kazakhstan, Rubio and other crew members will return to Karaganda, Kazakhstan while he will board a NASA plane bound for Houston. Frank's record-breaking time in space is not just a milestone. It's a major contribution to our understanding of long-duration space missions, said NASA Administrator Bill Nelson. He embodies the true pioneer spirit that will pave the way for future exploration to the moon, Mars, and beyond. Rubio's voyage of 371 days is now the longest single spaceflight by an

American astronaut in NASA history. NASA has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. Like I said, if you want to get our Friday edition newsletter tomorrow, be sure to go to readtangle.com and become a subscriber. And before you do anything, go put your phone down or carry on with your day. Go check out our new video that just went up on YouTube within a couple hours if you're listening to this in the afternoon of Thursday, September 28th. It is about decorum in Congress. I think you'll enjoy it. Check it out, Tangle News on YouTube. And we'll be back here on Monday.

Have a great weekend. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by John Law. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more on Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. We'll see you next time. Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown.

When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot.

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