Tangle - The Sunday Podcast: Isaac and Ari talk about Eric Adams, The Electoral College, and play a little game.

Episode Date: September 29, 2024

On today's episode, Isaac and Ari talk about the recent indictment of New York Mayor Eric Adams, other cases of political corruption and accountability, the electoral college, Isaac being a prepper, and a fun game about quotes and which politicians said them. And as always, the Airing of Grievances.You can watch the recap of the Harris v Trump debate with Isaac's commentary on our YouTube Channel!Check out Episode 6 of our podcast series, The Undecideds. Please give us a 5-star rating and leave a comment!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Help share Tangle.I'm a firm believer that our politics would be a little bit better if everyone were reading balanced news that allows room for debate, disagreement, and multiple perspectives. If you can take 15 seconds to share Tangle with a few friends I'd really appreciate it. Email Tangle to a friend here, share Tangle on X/Twitter here, or share Tangle on Facebook here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Got a mortgage? Chances are you're thinking about your payments right now. Need help? Ask your bank about relief measures that may be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history.

A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Coming up, Eric Adams gets indicted. Ari takes back a hot take and then immediately throws out an even hotter take after retracting his previous hot take. And then we play a game where I try and assign quotes to six different politicians. Ari's going to give me quotes, and I guess who said it. And then we talk a little bit about how I'm a prepper.

All right, you guys are going to enjoy this one. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, here with Tangle managing editor Ari Weitzman. It is Thursday, September 26. New York Mayor Eric Adams has been indicted. That's the headline news today. Ari, how you doing, man? You know, I'm wondering about the indictment. I think that kind of came out of nowhere. I'm doing great. Better than Eric Adams, I guess.

An era of accountability, some are saying. Some on this call even are saying. Yeah. Man, there's so much to talk about related to this. First of all, tweet of the week candidate, I sent it to you and you loved it about just like this moment in New York history, which I loved so much. I can't remember who tweeted it. This guy, guy, Oh yeah. It's Charlie Fryer on X. Um, it looks like he's just, uh, you know, New York sports guy. He sent out this awesome tweet that said, uh, it's late October in New York. The Yankees and Mets are playing a subway series. The Knicks win their opener against Boston, marking them as title contenders. The entire mayor's office is being indicted by the justice Department. Old school New York is back. The city's buzzing chills,

which is so good. There is something about like a New York mayor being totally corrupt and being indicted that just feels like this poetic, romantic, like beautiful new, I don't know. I can't quite. It's such a weird thing to say. I think I know what you're getting at, but just the idea of, uh, our, our mayor's a slime ball that feels good. That feels right. It's like out of a movie or like a mobster book or something. It's just, um, it's perfect. Uh, this does not look good. First of all, I have kind of a hot take I'm going to throw out here in a second about this whole thing and just what it's telling us about the moment we're living in. But I've talked about this before. I mean, you know, we've had a lot of indictments

in the last couple of years of politicians. And sometimes I think when you read indictments like this, when you read legal documents like this, it's very clear that something's maybe being strung together a little bit, or, you know, the evidence is a little questionable or it's, it's doesn't have like the, the 95 mile per hour fastball down the middle type vibe. The Bob Menendez indictment, when it came out and we read it, was like, oh, this guy's guilty. There's no doubt. It was just like they laid out the evidence. They made allegations they very clearly were not going to make. It was like there was no ambiguity about the law.

You know, like some of the stuff with Trump around some of like the election fraud stuff that the DOJ brought, it's really complicated. And it requires like these novel applications of, you know, certain obscure laws that haven't been used in a particular way. And it's, you know, you feel a little bit like, I'm not so sure. The Trump classified documents case was another example like the Bob Menendez indictment, where it was like, oh, yeah, he did this. They have him dead to rights. I still think that about the classified documents case. I mean, you know, all this stuff that has happened with Eileen Cannon, the judge there

has been very controversial. And, you know, I think if that case goes to trial, Trump is going to be found guilty. This indictment has a very similar vibe as the Bob Menendez and Trump indictments, where it's just like, oh, he like, definitely did that. You know, everybody gets their day in court. So I'm certainly not going to preempt any judgment by calling him guilty. But the stuff that is in this is like hilariously bad. I'm going to give you one example.

At one point in the indictment, this is an excerpt from it. It says, Eric Adams, the defendant, continued to conceal the benefits he received from foreign nationals seeking to gain influence over him. Adams did not report any of the 2019 gifts he received from the airline manager or the promoter on his annual disclosure form. In addition, in March 2019, while exchanging text messages to plan another possible trip to Turkey, in which the airline manager would arrange travel for Adams. The Adams staffer texted Adams, quote, to be on the safe side, please delete all messages you send to me. Adams responded, always do. And the DOJ has that text message. I mean, that's just like,

just like, you know, the so criminally, uh, idiotic and also just so beautiful and such an indictment of like their character and understanding of what they were doing. Um, the other one that I really love is another part of the, the indictment, all of this, by the way, you can just go read it's online, uh, is that on June, 2020, uh, this is June 20, June 22nd, 2018. Um, it's basically that an Adams campaign staffer told a potential donor that Adams probably wouldn't want to accept the donations because those donations were illegal. And then the staffer goes and checks with Adams, and it turns out that he's like totally open to taking the donations, even though they know they're illegal. It's unbelievable. From the indictment, it says, the Adams staffer and

promoter discussed by text message a possible trip by Adams to Turkey. The promoter stated in part, quote, fundraising in Turkey is not legal, but I think I can raise money for your campaign off the record. The Adams staffer inquired, how will Adams declare that money here? The promoter responded, he won't declare it or will make the donation through an American citizen in the U.S., a Turk. I'll give cash to him in Turkey or I'll send it to an American. He will make a donation to you. The Adam Staffer replied, I think he wouldn't get involved in such games. They might cause a big stink later on, but I'll ask anyways. The Adam Staffer then asked, how much do you think

could come from you? Money-wise, the promoter responded, max $100,000. The Adam Staffer wrote, 100K? Do you have a chance to transfer that here? We can't do it while Eric is in Turkey, to which the promoter replied, let's think. After this conversation, the Adams staffer asked Adams whether the Adams staffer should pursue the unlawful foreign contributions offered by the promoter. And contrary to the Adams staffer's expectations, Adams directed that the Adams staffer pursue the promoter's And contrary to the Adams staffers expectations, Adams directed that the Adams staffer pursue the promoters illegal scheme. That is not good. That's, yeah, that's just old fashioned embezzlement. You are, uh, you are about as corrupt as a lot of people thought and

claimed you were, um, really, really bad. So I think he's guilty Again, I'm presuming that based on the directness And the thoroughness of the indictment Anytime this stuff goes to court You never know what's going to happen I'm just saying like He very obviously was doing something really shady Just by these text messages alone

But I don't know what's going to happen to him politically obviously, was doing something really shady just by these text messages alone. But I don't know what's going to happen to him politically. Somebody asked me over under on how many days he resigns until he resigns. And I said like 400 because I think he has an election next year and he's not going to leave without being voted out of office. He kind of has that vibe. He's already just, you know, saying that this is all set up and he didn't do anything wrong and all this stuff. So my take here, which like nobody's really talking about, but I'm just going to throw

it out there. I don't care what you think about the Biden DOJ, Southern District of New York, whatever. what you think about the Biden DOJ, Southern District of New York, whatever. We're in like an incredibly bipartisan accountability for scummy behavior from high profile politicians era. This is not unique. We have the Trump charges, which I know everybody feels differently about them, but let's just say the classified documents one. I mean, the fact that an ex-president is being charged with crimes, I think is frightening and destabilizing. And there are a lot of things that worry me about it. But it's also like, I don't want any president to think they can get away with unlawful behavior.

So just like remove Trump from it, remove the charges from it. If a president or ex-president has done something illegal, I want them to be charged. So I am happy about that. The Hunter Biden charges, Bob Menendez, Democrat, and his wife, Eric Adams, now Democrat, Henry Queller, a Democratic representative from Texas, Cori Bush, a Democrat who was being investigated, but has already lost her election. So she's gone. And then you have the Matt Gaetz probe, the ethics probe for all the sex scandal stuff. And then Oakland mayor, who is, I believe, a Democrat and Tennessee representative Andrew Ogles, who is a Republican. All these people have been investigated or gotten indicted just in like the last year or two.

It's an era where I don't think it's particularly good to be a corrupt politician. And that strikes me as a very good thing. I'm happy about that development. I don't see enough people talking about it. And I'd like to go on record that this is, you know, whatever it is, the Biden DOJ, this era, they're cleaning up some some scummy behavior out there. And I'm all for it, man. I think this is a good development. Well, the obvious pushback would be, do we know that the DOJ is cleaning up more scummy behavior or is it just that there's more scummy behavior happening? Do you think that, you know, politicians have been getting away with more prior to now, or

that politicians are now doing more shady stuff? Yeah, good question. Um, I think I, I, my instinct, I mean, this is a totally subjective thing. I don't know how, because without people being prosecuted, it's hard to, my, my instinct is that there's just more oversight and prosecution happening for stuff that's typical. Like, I don't think Adams is the first person who ran for mayor in New York to go take some cash from some like Turkish, allegedly, uh, go take some cash from some like Turkish, allegedly, go take some cash from some, you know, Turkish political group or something. I don't I don't think so. But it seems like, you know, whether it's Trump opening the door to this stuff, and the DOJ wanting to be clear, there is nonpartisan as possible, or we're

just like, this is just a DOJ under Merrick Garland that cares a lot more about addressing this stuff. I don't know. It seems like it's happening more. The prosecution's happening more. And I don't necessarily know that we have more corrupt politicians now than before. In fact, I would bet maybe we have fewer given, you know, how many more levers of accountability we have outside of prosecution with social media and, you know, the way mass media can spread so

quickly. I mean, I would suspect probably in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, it was a lot easier to do corrupt stuff as a House representative or a senator because the news about it would not spread quite as easily as it does now. You know, I guess this is a little bit of anecdotal evidence to support your of anecdotal evidence to support your suggestion that there's just more corruption being held to task now is that possibly the highest profile indictment we've seen in New York alone in the past month or so was Diddy's, which is a little bit outside of our lane, but it is kind of breaching the, the like non-political bubble of national news right now. And that guy had a paper trail of sorts for a long time. And something's different about the climate that leads us to prosecute people with like

reputations and paper trails right now. So maybe there's something to do that. Yeah, totally. I mean, another person who like, I think everybody has kind of known for a long time was a scumbag, but nobody really did anything about it. And it seems like, yeah, the chickens are coming home to roost for people like Diddy and the music industry all the way to, you know, whatever politicians, um, you, you've like suspected or maybe not the greatest people, um, from, you know, Matt Gates to Hunter Biden to, to Eric Adams. Uh, I mean, Henry Queller kind of surprised me. He was not somebody I would have had up there. Bob Menendez. menendez um i mean he most cartoonish fraud that we've ever seen yeah like it was so yeah i mean he did gold bars and fur coats the first

time but that wasn't enough um so yeah i don't know it's just like yeah it strikes me that it's notable that it doesn't seem like a great time to be a corrupt Paul. Uh, and we should celebrate that. So, um, that's, that's kind of my, uh, my little hot take out of the Eric Adams stuff, which is just to say, I don't know that the DOJ, and I think because of Hunter Biden and the allegations against Joe Biden and the political divisiveness of the DOJ prosecuting Trump, that this Department of Justice is not getting enough credit for most of these people are Democrats and like DOJ with Democratic appointees is basically laying waste to all this corruption.

And that seems really good. I can't remember a year like this one in terms of the level of prosecution and all the stuff that we're seeing. So you relatedly, I guess, had a hot take that you're now putting some cold ice on you wanted to talk about. So maybe I should give you the floor for that while we're in the in the hot take realm. Yeah, we're in the hot take realm a bit, but this is a bit of a zag. So it's just in the realm of hot takes, but pretty far from the realm of political prosecutions, which is one of the earliest podcasts that you and I did together. I talked about how I think the logical argument for if you just throw out

context and history and you just look in a vacuum, the logical argument against the Electoral College is stronger than the argument in favor of keeping the Electoral College. But I've sort of backed out of that a little bit recently. Not prompted entirely by this, but it was on my mind because in one of our team meetings today, one of our interns, Shoria, posed this question about what a popular lie in civilization is that we require in order to function as a civilization, which I think we're planning on unpacking a little bit more later. But I was just thinking about this notion of like, there are some things that we say aren't that we do as a country aren't true, or there's some things that we do, but we don't give the reason for. And I think with the electoral college,

the best reason to keep it something that I haven't heard anybody say, but I actually think is the number one reason to keep it, is it's just more interesting. It's just more interesting to watch the turnout and watch the numbers on election day and go, oh, this state's worth three points, this one's worth nine, and see the numbers go differently. It just feels like a scoreboard. And politics shouldn't feel that way, but they do. They definitely do. And I think it is a little bit more engaging to think about in terms of like losing states that are worth points than seeing some unfathomably large numbers go up or down in the tens of millions. And I think, you know, maybe that's a good reason, actually. you know, maybe there, that's a good reason, actually.

I feel like you just took back a hot take for a hotter take, which is that we shouldn't change something that you don't think works because it's more interesting the way it is. That seems, that seems more ridiculous than your original take. Yeah, I think my original take wasn't that ridiculous. But, um, I just think like, original take wasn't that ridiculous. But I just think like, I have this belief that the reasons why we do things are never the reasons why we tell people. Like, when I choose the college that I go to, or the profession I get into, I could have a story that I tell people for why. But the real reasons like a little bit more of a gut feel that's hard to describe. And I think this is in that boat of like, why do we do the electoral college? Well, initially, we're a federation of states and states had different voting weights. And we tried to honor our constitutional history as a

United States and that has a weaker federal government. So we tried to create this blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that's not the reason. The reason is that it's more interesting to watch the points. Like that's why we keep doing it. We could have changed it any number of times, but we keep doing it because it's just easier to follow. And it's more interesting to watch. I think that is the actual reason. And I'm not saying that I necessarily think that's a good enough reason to keep doing it. I just think that's the real reason why we keep doing it. And I don't know. I think that's kind of hard to talk about. We're talking about gut feelings that intersect with policy. That's kind of weird. But maybe people would vote less if the Electoral College didn't exist. Now I'm just spitballing, but. No, I don't know. I mean, I kind of know what you mean.

I would I think if we're like waiting reasons why we still have the Electoral College, I think that belief that it's the fairest system is probably still really close to the top. is probably still really close to the top. Like I think a lot of people, and I think there's a very good argument that it does create some level of balance and fairness in national presidential elections. If you like have, especially if you come from a less populated sort of more underdog overlooked state.

I also think maybe more than anything else is just changing something we've been doing forever. That's like a prohibitive thing to me. And that, that I think is like, it's the change part. People hate reforming something like that, hate reforming something like that, that we've done forever, even if, even if it were self evidently the wrong thing, which I've heard you make the argument that it is. And I think there is a strong argument that it is, um, like the, the fact that it's such a big change is what's scary. Like if we had a popular vote, I guess the other way to put this is if we had, if we have a popular vote for the presidential election for the last 200 years and a politician came out today and ran on changing to the electoral college,

everyone would be like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Um, we're not going to like give every state points. And then and also then there would just be this massive fight over how much like we never be able to agree on it because, you know, Pennsylvania would have to be would would fight to be worth X amount. And Ohio would be like, why is Pennsylvania worth more than us? Like those guys suck, you know? Uh, and it would just be, it would like, it would tear everything apart. And I think that's

part of why it's so difficult. It's just, um, yeah, it's just like, it's the change element of it. Yeah. That inertia reasons actually probably the number one. Um, And just to restate really quickly, one of the big reason why I think it's more fair to not have it is if you imagine you're a person who's living in one of the low populated rural spread out counties in Eastern Oregon, which is a state that has eight electoral college votes. If you look across the border to which is a state that has eight electoral college votes. If you look across the border to Idaho, the state that has four electoral college votes, proportionately, your vote would have a larger impact on presidential election because the smaller the state, the more that their votes are represented by their senator and every state gets two senators

as opposed to their representative, which is apportioned by population. So it's just like a simple mathematical thing. So the states that are smaller have a larger voting share. And when it comes to being fair to people based on rural states, that sort of misses the people that are in populated states, but in rural areas, those are the people who are most underrepresented, I think. But yeah, that's ground we've trod before. I think the statement of, we don't want to change it because we've been doing it this way, and the change would feel like a really sudden jolt, and it's going to spend all this political capital, which is maybe the 1B reason behind the 1A. And we only have so much political capital to go around,

evidently. We have a hard time getting things done at the federal level. But I'd put right behind it the idea that it really is just more entertaining. I don't think that's negligible. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Whether renting, renewing a mortgage, or considering buying a home, everybody has housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances,

visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th.

Shorya's question brought up an interesting conversation that we decided we should probably have on the podcast. So again, just to repeat, we had this meeting today, once a week or once every other week, our interns present some of the stuff they've been working on and we talk about what they've been doing and we all check in together. And Shuri is one of our interns who's based in India, actually, which is always interesting to kind of hear him talk about U.S. politics and ask questions and think about stuff we're thinking about through a lens that none of us really have. And he, you know, yeah, effectively asked, like, what's a lie that we all tell ourselves about society that, you know, is maybe maybe makes us a little more comfortable or that everybody kind of buys

into. And my response to that question was that I think the biggest lie that we tell ourselves, at least in the US, is that we're safe, which I actually don't totally think we are and then it came out a little bit that um i have some prepper tendencies i guess you could say that uh i copped to in this meeting that ari immediately said we're talking about that on the podcast uh but i'll make my case which is just like, I do think that at some point, the US is going to be challenged in a very real way. I genuinely believe that I think not believing that is like a historical it, it always happens. It happens to every country that's dominant, every world power, every empire, It happens to every country that's dominant, every world power, every empire. At some point, they always get tested.

And, you know, we have an incredible military built up, well-funded, clearly very lethal, incredibly powerful, far-reaching, dominant all over the globe. There's basically no doubt about that. But to me, the next war that's coming is going to be one in space. The next big war that's coming is probably happening in, you know, like Southeast Asia around Taiwan and in the South China Sea. But the I think part of that war is going to be a war fought in space because, you know, the technology and the reliance we have on our military has on and our social cohesion has on it is also important. So imagine a world where, you know, a China or Russia basically shot a few satellites

out of the sky. And for 48 hours, we had no internet or telecommunications in the US. hours, we had no internet or telecommunications in the US. And then maybe there were a few terrorist attacks, God forbid, or, you know, the Capitol got attacked, or somebody tried, whether they failed or succeeded or whatever, to attack us through air or sea, which is incredibly hard. It's one of the great advantages we have is that we're fairly isolated and surrounded by allies. So it's not easy to fly to the U S and attack us. But given all that, um, something like that to me, I don't think that we have the social cohesion to handle that. Um, I think it would be a doomsday, like, a movie, apocalyptic type scenario where in a matter of 24 to 48 hours, people would turn on each other.

The panic and the mass freak out from not being able to just call somebody or get online and watch the news would be so destructive and chaotic. And I think we're fairly vulnerable to it, to be frank. And I'm not sure a lot of people recognize it. I think there's a lot of reason to believe and are a lot of incentive that countries like China or whatever, who could challenge us or who may be interested in challenging us, they have a lot of incentive not to do it. And namely that, like we can inflict an incredible amount of damage onto them and they would be inviting that, which is the great deterrent, obviously. But I think there's not like a zero, like a point zero zero five percent chance something like that could happen. 0.005% chance something like that could happen. I think it's more like one in a hundred or,

you know, one in 80 or something. And because of that, uh, I have, I've prepared, um, I always, like, I just, I have a go bag, like a, an official, you know, I have a couple of them placed in like my car and in my house. Um, I have a well-communicated plan with my wife, like in the event that something happens where there is like, you know, we have news that, or whatever, all of a sudden nobody has cell phone service and there's like a mass freak out one day, like where to meet and what to do. freak out one day, like where to meet and what to do. And, uh, yeah, it just makes me feel a little bit better. And maybe that's just paranoia brought from the fact that I spend so much time reading all this news and all this stuff, but like, I'm not going to be the guy caught without like a fresh gallon of water and, you know, a compass and some fire starters, um, if that day ever comes. So, uh, you know, I have some other plans that I'm prepper enough not to say, uh, publicly, but I would just say,

like, I, I do not look at people who are like in the prepper community. Cause it's not, it's not just, you know, it's not just war, like international war, nuclear war or whatever. It's also, you know, disasters, um, or like, you know, domestic stuff that can happen. I mean, there's all different reasons to kind of be ready, but, uh, yeah, I mentioned that in this meeting, it seemed to take a few people back. I don't really ever talk about it publicly. I think I've mentioned it once on the podcast before, but I'm not ashamed to say that I support the Prepper community. I'm all in. I think that they should,

I think that people should look at them more favorably than they do. You don't have to be a conspiratorial crank to think that like, it's worth spending 30 minutes to have a plan and have some stuff ready in the event that things really go south, because it's not like a 0% odd, in my opinion. See, I think it's less about the percentage, like the odds that something happens and more about the magnitude of what it would be. But yeah, there's a lot there. I think first, just as a quick, like attribution, because I think Shorya would want to make sure this is said, this is a question that he sort of took from a YouTuber, CGP Gray, who does a bunch of educational and sort of thought experiment YouTubes. Uh, so I want to make sure that's

credited well. Um, and yeah, I think this is a issue where I have a good amount of similarity and sympathy with you. I mean, I moved to Northern Vermont and building a house in an area that gets plenty of water and have a home that's designed to not lose a lot of heat on a given day and supposed to be really insulating. So I'm thinking about these things. I think, I know that you, to quote Ron Swanson, have a certain amount of gold. I'm sure that you've taken care to make sure that is st uh, stashed in different places. Um, and then maybe throughout the podcast, you can give different hints to people so they can go find it, but you're probably not really, really quick. I have to interrupt you. Uh,

yeah, I do. Um, and I was actually not so long ago was telling Phoebe that, uh, telling Phoebe that I have a plan for that gold, which is that when I before I die, I'm going to bury it. I'm going to bury it in a few different places across the US and I'm going to leave a like a treasure hunt for my grandchildren to go on like their own exploratory journey to find it and hopefully travel the great United States. So the joke that I made was real, actually. Yeah. Yeah. That's good to know. That'll be fun one day. Yeah. She like initially trashed it. She was like, that's, I was like, are you, if my grandfather, I mean, both my, both my grandfathers, my grandparents, I was blessed with incredible grandparents on both sides. But if either of them had, like in their will left a note that they had

hidden 1000s of dollars worth of gold and left me clues to go find it, I would be like, this is the coolest thing ever. Like, best grandpa of all time, obviously, writing a book about it, for sure. best grandpa of all time, obviously. You'd be writing a book about it for sure. Yeah, definitely. Uh, so yeah, that's, that's my plan for the gold. If the, uh, nuclear apocalypse, you know, if I don't have to trade it for food before then basically. Yeah. That's that. So you mentioned the nuclear apocalypse is the one thing that really rattles me. I think it should rattle most of us when you think of it, but,. But the idea of like the fragility of our infrastructures and systems, I think I don't want to say too much. All of the water that goes to the San Francisco Bay Area is a gravity-fed reservoir system from all the way across the state through pipelines, through massive pipes. That's disruptible. High-voltage power lines that crisscross the southwestern United States, disruptible.

Oil pipelines, gas pipelines in the southeast we've already seen, those are disruptible. Oil pipelines, gas pipelines in the Southeast, we've already seen those are disruptible. It doesn't take a lot to, you know, attack a couple cell towers in a coordinated fashion, do something that across the country, like a handful of people could easily have a plan that makes at least the government or the military think we don't know where they are and have a disruption that is going to be wide-reaching. That's terrorism. That's the thing that I think we're all mostly concerned about in the U.S. because, like you said, we're a really hard nation to attack in conventional military ways. But our infrastructure, the biggest defense that we have,

I think is a shared global belief that cooperation is more in everyone's best interests. That isn't like a giant gun. That's not a big military. That's just a strong economy and a strong sense of cooperation that knowing if you make the U S suffer kind of, that's going to have downstream effects that are going to hurt everyone. And I think that, you know, that feels a little tenuous, but I think it's also pretty durable. So that's the thing that like makes me sleep. Okay. At night is knowing if there's a group of people that thinks about a coordinated attack on the U.S., they're going to be thinking, you know, this ultimately it's going to do, maybe if I can hurt the civilians in the U.S., but I'm going to be doing a lot to hurt our economy, our trade partners,

like the, God knows that the response is going to be enormous. So I think the prevention is going to be tough, but the likelihood that something like that happens is small. But the thing that really shakes me is the idea of like a nuclear submarine sending off a warhead from somewhere. Like you just don't, you never know where those things are. Like we actually don't know how many there are and where they are and technology ages things get buggy that freaks me out yeah it freaks me out too by the way new york city's water system also yeah and the cat skills and his gravity you know and it's very simple, like tunnel system.

It's some of the best city water in the world. Uh, but it's, yeah, it's all some of that, you know, 9 million people from like a very simple system. I mean, the, the obvious thing to conjure that like comes to mind is COVID is just like, we had something that, you know, I mean, some people literally believe was like a bio weapon, but is perfectly representative of how society, our society will react. And that was like, a slow motion, months to prepare, to prepare, months to react kind of situation where like a genuine bioweapon or some sort of attack, we wouldn't have that time. And maybe the time worked against the social cohesion with

COVID because it went on for a long time and that drove people nuts. But I also just think something that was rapid and scary and induced fear and promoted misinformation. Like we, I mean, God, we haven't even gotten to that. Just like the information systems that we have in place to handle this, like imagining some sort of attack happening and people going on to the cesspool that is Twitter now to figure out what's going on or how easily all of our, you know, all these government, local governments across the U.S. have been hacked in the last 10 years. I mean, there's so many nightmare scenarios that are really easily imaginable and plausible that, uh, yeah, it's pretty scary. So, um, I'm a prepper out loud and proud, baby. No, no shame about it. Let's, uh, let's maybe ease things up a little bit because we've been getting out there with, um, with some theories about how civilization could

crumble and what we can do in our plans. I have a game I want to play with you. I think you'll really like it. All right, let's do it. I like we're turning into like a game pod, and I think it's really good for the brand. I think we should we should keep leaning in. Yeah, I think so. It's nice to have a structure, too, and having a little bit of a, hey, here's the new game this week. And one of us springs

in on the other and surprises them, I think is a, is it's good to like be a centerpiece of what we're doing here. But here's the game. It's pretty simple. I've taken quotes from the last three vice presidential candidates of the Republican and Democratic parties. And I want you to try to match the quote to the person who said it. So those three people from each party, so that's six in general, that is going all the way back to 2012. Oh, you know what? I messed this up a little bit because I went back to 2008 to get Sarah Palin. I skipped over her. I always forget his name, man. It's so bad. He just disappeared. Mitt Romney's VP, Paul Ryan. Oh, Paul Ryan. Yeah. Let's just pretend that he's gone. I'm sorry. I hope that you're living a happy, fulfilling life somewhere outside of politics. He actually, Paul Ryan, uh, was in

the news very recently, um, because he, he slammed Trump pretty hard and said that he wasn't voting for him. Uh, and he did something just the other day too. yes paul ryan's gone you're the only one who knows about him we're gonna go to sarah palin in 2008 mike pence from 2016 and and 2020 and jd vance in 2024 for the republican side and then from the democratic side we're gonna be talking about tim kaine from 2016 kamala harris from 2020 and then tim walls from 2024 so those are the six people i'm gonna give you some quotes first i'm gonna give you a warm-up round just so you can get your feet under you. So, first quote. Americans call them hillbillies, rednecks, or white trash. I call them neighbors, friends, and family. J.D. Vance.

Easy. J.D. Vance. Good job. Next up. We don't have the Ten Commandments posted in our classrooms, but we have free breakfast and lunch. Tim Walls in Minnesota. Tim Walls in Minnesota. Tim Walls. Yeah. He of the viral image of getting hugged by kids after signing into law. Free lunch. Yep. That's Tim Walls. Next one. I used to say, I'm a conservative, but I'm not in a bad mood about it. I've always believed that civility

and heavy doses is essential in self-government sarah palin would never say that it's got to be mike pence it's mike pence yeah that was uh i've got a good palin quote for you don't't worry. But that was, um, that was a thing that I think he was saying a little bit around that time was like, I'm a conservative, but I'm not in a bad mood about it. I remember that being like a really good line. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good line. And I think that was a good thing for Pence's brand. It reminds me of the Shane Gillis bit about like, you know, being a, like being a, becoming a Republican, there's sort of like, it's like a werewolf, you know, where it's like, like, I, you know, it's like, I,

I know I'm right, but I, and I don't want to be a dick about it, but I can't help myself. It's very, it's a very funny, like personality trope about conservatives that i think is often true which is like they can be a bit aggro on the issues that they're right about which like uh you know similar to how liberals can be really self-righteous about things that they're right about and then it makes you not want to agree with them even though you know they're right just because they're so about. And then it makes you not want to agree with them, even though you know, they're right, just because they're so self righteous. It's like conservatives on stuff they're right about will be assholes about it in a way that makes you want to not agree with them, even when you know, they're right. That's, that's, that's what happens to me as somebody near the middle. And I love one of the things that Shane Gillis said about growing up and getting older

and feeling like you're becoming more conservative. He's like, there's always, there's always signs. Like you start getting into World War II. Yeah. Yeah. You really start reading books about World War II. Yeah. It's really good. All right. Two more for you. You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you which leaves for us last wait can we hold on we should just pause for a second we'll linger on it i i she has to be the queen of um like inspirational quotes like if you were to if you were to take a presidential candidate and try and manufacture a bunch of signs for people to put up in their house that are like really tacky like feel good about the world signs kamala harris would produce more of them than any presidential

candidate that we've ever seen uh that's my um that's that's my hypothetical i just invented kind of signs that are on wood painted in like golden white yeah like white cursive what can't be unburdened by what has been yeah i'll read the quote again well this is the one that this followed the famous what you thought you just fell out of a coconut tree. And then what she said next was you exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you. Yeah, that's nice. Put it above a couch for sure. There's a sentiment there that's beautiful that I totally agree with.

But yeah, the way she says it makes me want to. Oh, never mind. All right. Next. All right. Polls. Nah. it makes me want to never mind all right next all right poles nah they're for strippers and cross-country skiers what i mean by process of elimination tim kaine but if you had done that first isn't he the last one left oh sorry there are sorry i did skip one so there's two there's two here so yeah if you did that one first i totally would have gotten that wrong actually i wonder if if you take sarah palin's personality and put it in tim kaine do you have an unstoppable politician

if you take sarah palin's but yeah i don't know i think unstoppable politician? If you take Sarah Palin's personality, I don't know. I think if you take Tim Kaine's personality and put it inside Sarah Palin, you have an unstoppable politician. The reverse. Sarah Palin's personality is what destroyed her. Well, you could also argue it's what got her as far as it did. Yeah, maybe. I think being a woman in the early 2000s who was as outspokenly conservative as she was, young and well-connected in the party was more helpful.

I think when she spoke and deviated from the script, everybody was like, oh, this lady's kind of a whack job. I mean, that's, I don't know. I guess it really depends what you value. And I, like for me, I think she was right about some policy stuff, but she was just such a, yeah. Just like she couldn't help herself yeah whereas like yeah i guess tim kaine was pretty boring so maybe maybe you're right yeah here's your tim kaine quote for you like a lot of people i have been a leader in some things and i've been a follower in some things i know how to work on a team yeah that's good that's like um the crappy version of Tim Walls, just like trying to explain how he's had some different roles. I could just see him like with a leg up on a bench in a baseball dugout, just clapping, like know how to be on a team.

Let's go. Let's follow. Let's lead. Let's do it all. Come on. Yeah, totally. All right. Good game. We should do it. I think we should do a quote every, maybe we can make this anything, a quote every week with one where we get like one or two names. You have to guess who it is. That was just the warmup round. So I made that easy. I've got the real round for you coming up. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break can indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying

at the university of british columbia we believe that they can dr johanna sam and her team are researching how both indigenous and non-indigenous youth cope with cyber aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca slash forward happens here. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother.

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Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. You don't have to say who you think it is right away. I do think I left enough breadcrumbs in here for you to puzzle it out, but they might not be obvious at first. So here we go. Same six people? Same six people. All right, good. I was going to say you didn't make that pretty easy. I appreciate the warmup. All right. So now you're warm. We remember

these six people and what they're like, and here's your first quote. If you want to deal with an epidemic, crime, or health, the smartest and most effective and cheapest way to deal with it is prevention first. Wow. Kamala Harris. I'm going to let you think. We'll say you're going to, it won't be your final answer, but you're putting Kamala Harris on the board next to that one. Yeah, I'm putting Kamala Harris on the board next to that one.

I'll write it down. Cool. And while you're doing that, I'll give you the second quote. At a pivotal time in my life, Barack Obama gave me hope that a boy who grew up like me could still achieve the most important of my dreams. For that, I'll miss him and the example he set. Man, that's a good one. My instinct is that that's something that J.D. Vance actually said. But I'm not 100% sure whether I'm ready to commit to that or not.

But if it is, that's a tasty one. We'll put that on the board then. We've got Vance next to that. Here's her third quote. New terms used like overseas contingency operation instead of the word war, that reflects a worldview that is out of touch with the enemy that we face. We can't spin our way out of this threat. Wow. Say that one more time. This is way harder. I'll give you the whole quote.

New terms used like overseas contingency operation instead of the word war. That reflects a worldview that is out of touch with the enemy that we face. We can't spin our way out of this threat. Yeah, that honestly sounds like J.D. Vance too. But I'm going to peg that to Mike Pence for now. Okay, Pence on the board for that. Moving on to quote number four. No one should be harassed or mistreated because of who they are, who they love, or what they believe. Tim Walls for now, but smells like a trick question.

question we'll move on to quote number five then i feel like i've got feet firmly in different camps between the right of gun ownership and public safety wow uh i think that's kamala harris um yeah so i'm bumping the epidemic quote to somebody else. I'll read you the sixth quote now while we think about it. People ought to be proud to be Democrats right now. You know, we're a happy warrior party. Well, Sarah Palin didn't say that. Yeah, that'd be strange yeah um okay so are there any that you feel most confident with do you want me to just read through the six quotes again just top to tail to the top to tail

yeah all right quote one if you want to deal with an epidemic, crime or health, the smartest and most effective and cheapest way to deal with it is prevention first. Quote two. At a pivotal time in my life, Barack Obama gave me hope that a boy who grew up like me could still achieve the most important of my dreams. For that, I'll miss him and the example he set. and the example he set. Quote three, new terms used like overseas contingency operation instead of the word war. That reflects a worldview that is out of touch with the enemy that we face. We can't spin our way out of this threat. Quote four, no one should be harassed or mistreated because of who they are, who they love, or what they believe. Quote five, I feel like I've got feet firmly in different camps between the right of gun ownership and public safety. Quote six, people ought to be proud to be Democrats right now. You know, we're a happy warrior party. Um, where do you want to start? This is really hard. I really might not get any of these, but I think I have an idea. I really might not get any of these, but I think I have an idea.

Okay, my final answers, I'm just going to go through all of them. I think it would be unfair for me to go one by one and then alter. Let's see if I get any of them right. I'll start from least confident, and then I'll go to the one I think I'm most confident about. Sarah Palin said that nobody should be harassed for who they are. Mike Pence made the quote about war and how, you know, we need the language we're using doesn't adequately describe the enemy. J.D. Vance made the comment about Obama. Tim Kaine talked about preparing for an epidemic. Kamala Harris had the quote about

where she is on gun control. And Tim Walz called Democrats the happy warrior party. happy warrior party. Okay. So wait, okay. You got two, but the way that you missed them is very close. So the ones that you got right were JD Vance did say the quote about Obama and you got that. Wait, that might be it. Yeah. You got one. Sorry. Yes yes but you're really close i mean you just kind of swapped him so for you swapped palin and pence so pence was the one who said no one should be harassed i had palin on the war quote initially because it sounds like it's sort of like a high minded thing and not something you would think she would say but very representative of her worldview um that's what i was going for there and i was also trying to like make clear it does sort of have her speaking style when you think of

it sort of like changes voicing a bit like returns used instead of the word war that reflects but yeah that's hard and pence had that quote about no one should be harassed mistreated because of who they are who they love or what they believe in response to criticisms that he kept facing about gay marriage so that was like i was wondering if you'd remember that would have unlocked them okay and then tim walls made the comment about prepping for an epidemic and tim kane made the comment about the Happy Warrior Party. That was actually like a three-way carousel thing there. So you were right at first when you said Harris made the comment about an epidemic.

And I thought the thing that you were on there, which was the breadcrumb I was trying to leave, was about prevention first. Okay, so then it's Tim Wall's gun in the administration. Gun quote. Yep. Yeah. That makes more sense. And Tim Cain is the happy warrior. That was a bit of a red herring though. That was sneaky.

Wow. Good game. That was, yeah, that was hard. I, I do feel like I, what's interesting is I got, I got everybody, I got them all on the right side of the bucket and then got them wrong. Yeah. And it's interesting that the one that he stayed rock solid on was the Vance quote. I think that one was low key the easiest just because of the context clues saying like a boy who grew up like me at the time of Obama, like that could only be one of them.

Yeah. I also just remembered that he had some reverence for him and like wrote about that. I don't know if he said that in Hillbilly Elegy, if it was something he said publicly, but I remember feeling that way when I read Hillbilly Elegy about like kind of his worldview. So, um, cool. All right. One for six next time I'll do better. And with apologies to Paul Ryan, as always, sorry. Yeah. Apologies to a relative. I don't know if I have like some sort of your face. Blanchess approach against him. Maybe.

I like that. All right. Cool. Great game. I feel motivated to brush up on all my political quotes now. All right. Before we get out of here, we got to step into the grievance zone and share our gripes from the week.

The airing of grievances. Whatever happened to my... That's a lovely dress you have on. May I have the stats? Ari, would you like to go first or second this week? I'll go first this week. I think it's good to get a little bit of the throat clearing out of the way about this one, which is you and I are both people who've competitively played Ultimate Frisbee in our lives,

spent our athletic primes committed to that ridiculous sport, and are now coaches of club teams in it. This grievance doesn't require any knowledge about Ultimate Frisbee, just about, like, tournament structures. And I don't want this to come across as me, like, sour grating because the team that I coach did not qualify for nationals at our regional tournament. The team that you coached did. Congratulations.

Thank you. But I'm not saying, like, oh oh if only things were different like we got screwed like we played the same tournaments everybody else we lost we lost fairly like that's not what i'm saying what i am saying is that this is a format for a tournament that i don't think makes sense and i'm going to describe it to you which is 16 teams competing for three spots to go to the next level. The structure is four pools of four teams. And then when you win at the pool, you get bumped up. You immediately get to go to quarterfinals.

And if you finish second or third, you have to play a play-in pre-quarter game that if you win it, you go to quarterfinals. And then the teams that finish fourth are out of contention. That all sounds fair to me. The thing that I think, and the thing that I've never liked about this format, is that if you win your pool, you have to play a crossover game for seeding against another team that won its pool. This game's ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense that it should be played. The one seed plays the three seed, the two seed plays the four seed in a game that really just affects

what side of the bracket they're on. So it's a game that matters, but kind of doesn't. And then after that game, you have to go play an elimination game against another good team. And I think winning the pool should come with more of a reward. It should come with, you had a good season, it got you to a one seed in a pool, you held your seed.

Now that you've done that, this is where you reap the benefits of doing all of that work that you've done throughout the season and throughout the day to win those games. You should get a buy and you should play your quarterfinal against the team that won in the 2v3 seed. I think it's kind of strange that that's not the way it is. And I think the arguments in favor for it just kind of fall short. Like every team getting the same number of games. I don't want the same number of games in an

elimination tournament for the rest of our season i want i want every advantage i can get and i think if i'm a team that finishes second i acknowledge that i lost that advantage by the way that i played in pool play yeah i think i agree with you i mean again this is like a we'll veer into a little bit of uh inside baseball but it's worth noting that at nationals that that is the format you've got. If you win your pool, you got to buy, you don't have to play a pre-quarter or a crossover game. So, um, I think I'm in agreement with you that that seems like a stupid format. Uh, and we had to do the same thing. I don't understand why nobody

really cares about that game. It, I mean, we didn't have to do the same thing. I don't understand why nobody really cares about that game. I mean, we didn't have to do the same thing this year, but in the past, we've had to do the same thing. And it's very obvious that people are just like, whatever. And also it's like injury risk. And you can sometimes teams try really hard. Sometimes they don't. It's very silly.

Good grievance. Our Frisbee listeners will appreciate that one. Everyone else will probably, well, maybe they can appreciate it anyway because it's sports. Mine's a little vastly different. A little vastly different. Let's hear it.

Yeah, vastly different. Okay, so I've been getting this like the last few days. I think this is the third day in a row. I've been getting this like the last few days. I think this is the third day in a row. I've been getting this really weird. It happened once just in the last hour we were on this podcast, this like recurring headache in the back of my head, kind of like right behind, not right behind my ear, but sort of up into the right of my ear in the exact same spot. And it just comes for like, two or three seconds. It's an incredibly sharp pain. And it it's like, I have to it's like blinding pain for like two seconds, I have to like close my eyes, and just kind of like move

my neck around and then it sort of goes away. And, you know, like any normal person who has some like a little bit of hypochondriac tendencies. I started googling it yesterday, like sharp pain over left ear, whatever. And I just like, it just feels worth saying that we live at a time with like unlimited resources, incredible technology at our fingertips, that I still think is somehow overrated. Our information system is overrated. I think I'm a fairly smart person. I spent... And I'm definitely internet proficient. I grew up in the internet era. I'm on the internet all day. I know how to like, I know how to search and research stuff versus like, you know, maybe an elderly American or, you know, whatever people, there are a lot of people living today who struggle to navigate. I think the information space online,

I'm not one of those people. And I'm basically like, all right, I either have a brain tumor or ice pick headaches, which is like something that I don't have to care about at all and just goes away and is apparently like super common and just like give it two or three days and take some ibuprofen. Totally useless, like zero good, helpful information. I am not like any closer to understanding my malady or what might be wrong with me. The internet has done nothing but provoke like some level of anxiety that, you know, I have brain cancer. And then also, maybe it's just like a nerve thing in my neck, or maybe it's just this random headache that nobody knows how to understand and drink water.

Like, I should go see drink water. Like I should go see a physical therapist. I should go get a brain MRI or, you know, I should get a blood test or it's just like, oh, okay. So I'm just bombarded by totally non-helpful things. So my grievance here is just, uh, that it's crazy that we're like, we think of ourselves as being so far in the future, but actually the only thing that would still be sensible for me to do is to call my doctor's office and go to the doctor still. Which you've called your doctor's office by this point, one hopes? No, I've not.

Okay. I'm just, whatever. Phoebe calls me a hypochondriac because I- She's antisemitic right right yeah exactly she said she's an anti-semite um because I do I do get a little hung up on like I'll have certain things that are wrong with me and I'll be like oh I like I'll talk about them or like what do you think it is you think like it's the worst thing possible. Um, but I'm also, I also have some very like, uh, stereotypical dude tendencies, which is just like, I will just

tolerate pain for weeks on end without fixing it or doing anything proactive to address it. So like, I will complain about this probably through next week if it keeps up, and then maybe I'll go to the doctor. I'm just going to ride it out for the week. My leading theory right now is that it's something to do with just getting an unbelievable amount of screen time in my eyes. And like this weekend, I won't work and that'll help me. Uh, but theory. Yeah. I just yeah i just like it's just nuts that you know i'm like all this ai hype google being like all powerful world controller i'm just like so out on all of it right now i think it's all ridiculous i think i think like these systems are way worse and less functional and less helpful than any of us think. And I will take a smart human brain over a computer every time, basically. Join me in the woods, Isaac. Yes.

I'm in, dude. I'm coming. I get asked about AI stuff and Tangle so much now. My new answer is just like, I think it's all hype. And I think they're just like, they're getting high on their own supply and they're gonna like eat each other alive. And in 10 years, we'll still, we'll be talking about, like we talk about Bitcoin. It's just like- Yeah, you won't be able to use it anywhere

and it won't be helpful. And yeah, that's it. So I could be totally wrong about that in like six months, but that's where I'm at right now. There are some applications to AI. I don't want to go completely over my skis here. I think we've already found some that are really valuable. I think like something that my wife is working on is research about AI applications in the medical field and how they can interact with like ethical informed consent, which is an interesting space. But I do think that the way we popularly understand AI is sort of a myth. Like we're thinking of a, just a natural language model

that we can converse with that also gives us omniscient answers. That's not real. It only knows about its training set, which is just whatever it's given, which doesn't have any knowledge about the world usually, usually, unless it's a really specifically trained one. But as relates to like niche medical stuff, like even going to the doctor and seeing an informed person, sometimes it takes a long time. There's a kid that I coached this last year who kept having like concussion symptoms and he thought he might have to stop playing the sport and he was getting all of these tension headaches from his concussions and it turned out that he had been misdiagnosed and what he really had was just like extremely tense neck muscles in the back of

his neck that was pulling on his head and his skull and creating this tension that felt like a concussion symptom and he did felt like a concussion symptom. And he did have like one concussion early, but everything that recurred afterwards was just a byproduct of this neck pain that he had. And it took a long time and multiple referrals to find somebody who could give him that diagnosis. So our bodies are just confusing. And sometimes you have to live with uncertainty. And that is a big, big different, a largely different situation than what we often expect, which is I have access to everything that's ever happened at my fingertips. I should be able to formulate a query and get an answer. Like that's what we expect.

I should be able to formulate a query and get an answer. That's what we expect. But what happens is usually confusion, uncertainty, and having to deal with probabilities. And that's stressful. Yeah. Actually, the neck tension thing came up a lot in my searches. And my neck is always jacked. So maybe that's just what I'm dealing with. But yeah. my neck is always jacked. So maybe that's just what I'm dealing with. Um, but yeah,

more of the story is I'll be impressed by Google and AI when they can tell me like, what's wrong with me based off of all my symptoms of a headache. And until then, I'm going to talk about how unimpressive all that is. Um, the, the human writer reigns supreme as does the human doctor and the human everything, in my view. We should make that a tagline for Tangle. That's great. Yeah, I like that. We are human.

Tangle, we are human. All right, we got to get out of here. We'll see you guys. Take care. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kedak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady.

The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. If you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to retangle.com and check out our website.