Tangle - The Trump verdict.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Can Indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can. Dr. Johanna Sam and her team are researching how both Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth cope with cyber-aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown.

Starting point is 00:00:40 When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.

Starting point is 00:01:17 Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum. Some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. I am a little bit under the weather today, so I apologize for my congested voice fighting off a cold. And the timing could not be worse because we have a big story today. The Trump verdict came out yesterday in his civil trial where he was being charged with rape and defamation and sexual abuse. We are going to talk about the verdict, what happened, some views from the left and the right on that topic. Before we jump in though, as always, we'll start off today with first up representative george santos the republican from new york has been indicted

Starting point is 00:02:12 on 13 counts of fraud money laundering theft of public money and making false statements on his disclosure forms number two former fox news host tucker car Carlson announced his show was returning, but on Twitter. Number three, Pakistani authorities have detained hundreds of protesters and cut Internet services in an attempt to quell protests after the arrest of former Prime Minister Imran Khan. Number four, more than 40,000 migrants crossed Panama's Darien Gap last month, a six-fold increase from the same time last year. President Biden is warning that the southern border may be chaotic for a while as Title 42 comes to an end tomorrow. Number five, Senator Dianne Feinstein, the Democrat from California, is expected to

Starting point is 00:02:57 return to the Senate this week after more than two months at home recovering from shingles. A jury in New York finding Donald Trump, the Republican presidential frontrunner, by far liable for sexually abusing and defaming writer E. Jean Carroll. The jury also awarding the former magazine columnist nearly $5 million in damages to be paid by Mr. Trump. Trump has had a number of accusers, but this is the first to be affirmed in court. The jury of six men and three women deliberated just under three hours before reaching a verdict. A quick heads up, today's episode contains descriptions of sexual assault and language that may be inappropriate for some listeners.

Starting point is 00:03:52 On Tuesday, a federal jury in Manhattan found former President Donald Trump civilly liable for sexually abusing and defaming E. Jean Carroll and ordered him to pay $5 million in damages. The jury ruling was the result of a civil trial in which the writer alleged Trump raped her in a Manhattan department store in the 1990s, then defamed her by publicly mocking her allegations. After a two-week trial, the jury did not find Trump liable for rape, but it did determine that, more likely than not, the standard in a civil trial, he sexually abused Carol in a dressing room at the department store Bergdorf Goodman's in 1996. He was also found guilty of defaming Carol and comments he made denying her allegations. Carol, now 79 years old, made the first allegation in 2019. She claimed that she and Trump had bumped

Starting point is 00:04:42 into each other at the department store and struck up a rapport. In the midst of playful banter, they entered a dressing room together so he could try on a see-through bodysuit as a gag. Instead, she testified, he immediately shut the door and shoved her against the wall so hard that her head banged. She testified in graphic detail, saying the attack lasted for several minutes before she broke free and got out of the dressing room. Trump, who was deposed in the case but decided not to testify to a live courtroom, called the verdict a disgrace. I have absolutely no idea who this woman is, he said on Truth Social and all capital letters. Carroll's defamation lawsuit has stemmed from previous Trump comments, in which he said,

Starting point is 00:05:22 E. Jean Carroll is not telling the truth, is a woman who I had nothing to do with, didn't know, and would have no interest in knowing her if I ever had the chance. Trump's lawyer said he would appeal the ruling and has steadfastly denied any wrongdoing. During the trial, Carroll brought forward two witnesses who testified under oath that she had told them about the attack after it had happened.

Starting point is 00:05:43 She told jurors she had not had a romantic relationship since the encounter and chose to remain silent until the Me Too movement when she shared the story of the assault in her memoir. Carol first sued Trump for defamation in 2019, then filed a lawsuit for sexual assault after the Adult Survivors Act was passed in New York in 2022, which opened a window for sexual assault survivors to sue their attackers beyond the statute of limitations. Two other women testified in the trial that they, too, were sexually assaulted by Trump in a similar manner. He has been accused by at least 26 women of some kind of sexual misconduct, ranging from rape allegations to walking

Starting point is 00:06:21 unannounced into women's dressing rooms. While Trump did not testify, he was deposed for the trial in which he accused Carol of making up the most ridiculous, disgusting story in order to gain publicity. However, the deposition was viewed as damaging for Trump, who misidentified a photo of Carol as his ex-wife, Marla Maples, and faced questions about the infamous Access Hollywood tape where he was caught on a hot mic describing how women let stars, quote, grab them by the pussy. That's what you said, correct? Roberta Kaplan, a lawyer for Carol, asked Trump in the 2022 deposition. Well, historically, that's true with stars, he responded. It's true with stars that you can grab them by the pussy, Kaplan asked Trump.

Starting point is 00:07:02 Well, yes, if you look over the last million years, that has been largely true. Not always, but largely true, unfortunately or fortunately, Trump responded. And you consider yourself to be a star, Kaplan asked? I think you can say that, yes, Trump said. Meanwhile, Trump's lawyer, Joe Tacopino, pointed to jokes Carroll made on Facebook about having sex with Trump for money and how she was a fan of The Apprentice. During the trial, Trump's lawyers called Carroll's account inconceivable, saying she reconstructed a scenario where there was no witnesses present and no way to verify anything she had said. Takapina also noted her story shared striking similarities to a 2012

Starting point is 00:07:40 episode of Law & Order, in which a character describes a rape fantasy in the lingerie section of Bergdorf Goodman. Carol responded that she was aware of the episode but never saw it. Trump's lawyers also told jurors that Carol never mentioned the alleged assault in her diary, where she claimed to take copious notes about her daily activities and didn't mention the incident to police or speak publicly about it for 20 years until she was promoting her memoir. Trump's lawyers called the case an affront to justice and defended the decision not to bring any witnesses forward because Trump's defense was simple.

Starting point is 00:08:14 Carroll is lying. What could I have asked Mr. Trump, Takapina asked jurors. Alluding to Carroll's inability to name the specific day of the alleged assault, he proposed a question. Where were you on some unknown date? He also insisted the jurors were being asked to be blind to inconsistencies in Carroll's story because they hated Trump. Two things can be true at the same time, Takapina said. You can think Donald Trump is a rude and crude person and that her story makes no sense. Trump,

Starting point is 00:08:42 the odds-on favorite to win the Republican nomination for president in 2024, is still facing criminal charges in New York for alleged hush money payments to an adult film star, as well as criminal charges related to pressuring Georgia officials during the 2020 election, his handling of classified documents after his presidency, and his actions on January 6th. He is set to appear at a CNN town hall in New Hampshire on Wednesday night. Today, we're going to examine some arguments from the left and the right about the jury's findings, and then my take. First up, we'll start with what the left is saying. Many on the left celebrate the ruling, saying Trump is finally being held accountable for being a sexual predator.

Starting point is 00:09:36 Some argue that Trump's own deposition is what doomed him in this case, which started out as a long shot. Others say he got a fair trial and voters should take the ruling into account. In the New York Times, Michelle Goldberg said the fury of Me Too finally came for a man who inspired it. Trump's presidency in 2016 began after his boasting of sexual assault and being accused of sexual assault by more than a dozen women set off a tsunami of female fury. That fury powered the Women's March the day after its inauguration and inspired countless women to put their lives on hold and throw themselves into activism or to run for office themselves, Goldberg said. That disgust was the

Starting point is 00:10:16 spark that set off the Me Too movement, as women, unable to do anything about the abuser running the country, turned their energy toward those in their own institutions, including the entertainment industry. The trial itself was a test of how Me Too has changed the culture, with Carroll's lawyers asking a jury of six men and three women to understand why someone who'd suffered sexual abuse might keep quiet for decades, why she might not remember the date the assault happened, and why her trauma might not manifest in predictable, easily legible ways. Trump is not just a misogynist, he's a predator, and it's the women who reacted with horror to his election who have always understood this. In MSNBC, Danny Savaios wrote about how Trump's deposition doomed his own defense. This case was a long shot until Trump testified at his deposition.

Starting point is 00:11:10 All Trump had to do was testify the way you and I would if we were asked about something that never happened. But Trump only stuck to the script until he didn't. He mistook Carroll for his former wife in a photograph after insisting Carroll was not his type. Then, for no reason whatsoever, he gratuitously added that Roberta Kaplan, Carol's attorney, wasn't his type either. That wasn't even the most damaging moment. Questioned about the 2005 Access Hollywood tape, he actually defended his comments about grabbing women by their genitals without consent, Savias wrote. He said the rich and famous have been able to get away with that behavior, unfortunately or fortunately. What part was fortunate exactly, Ceballos said. Both moments featured prominently in Carroll's closing arguments, and both were evidence that

Starting point is 00:11:50 didn't exist before Trump offered them up on a platter. The Washington Post editorial board called it an astonishing moment of accountability. Mr. Trump received a fair trial, the board said. A mixed decision after three hours of deliberations underscores that jurors weren't out to get him. The six men and three women did not find Mr. Trump liable for allegedly raping E. Jean Carroll, as she claimed, but they agreed that he was liable for sexually abusing and defaming her, awarding her $5 million in damages. Two of Carroll's friends corroborated her story, and two women recounted their own Trump run-ins in sworn testimony. Mr. Trump declined to appear either on the stand or in the courtroom to face

Starting point is 00:12:30 his accuser, as was his right. Instead, jurors watched video of his deposition in which he mistook a picture of Ms. Carroll for that of his second wife. This undercut his claim that the former Miss Indiana University wasn't his type, the board said, the jury only needed to find a preponderance of evidence to find him guilty, which it did. The standard in an election is altogether different, though the results of Tuesday's decision have given voters compelling new evidence to take into account. All right, that is it for the leftist saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. Some on the right mock Carol's story, arguing that she has been an unreliable narrator who was clearly trying to promote her writing. Some argue that the jury findings will be interpreted differently based on how people feel about Trump. Others say Trump has lived

Starting point is 00:13:24 the life of immorality and it's finally caught up with him. In The Federalist, Eddie Scarry mocked the absurd nature of Carroll's allegations. It's pretty stunning to accuse a sitting president of rape, but then not want to call it rape, which is exactly what Carroll did at the time, Scarry wrote. In an interview with the New York Times, she said, it was an episode. It was an action. It was a fight. It was not a crime. It was I had a struggle with a guy. She added in the same interview, quote, I am not I have not been raped. Something has not been done to me. I fought. That's the thing. she would press charges. She flatly said no, and when asked why, she said, I would find it disrespectful to the women who are down on the border who are being raped around the clock down there without any protection. If you're not following, that's okay, Scary wrote. These were claims she made to promote a new book, and the borderline comical details of the non-rape

Starting point is 00:14:19 are that the two proceeded to flirt and giggle throughout the entire business before eventually heading toward the fitting rooms, where Trump pressed her against the wall and forced his mouth onto hers, though she continued to laugh. At some point, she said he was able to force himself upon her before she could break away and exit the store. But no fellow shopper saw it. No fitting room attendant, no sales clerk. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web,

Starting point is 00:14:56 his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. In the Washington Examiner, Timothy P. Carney said, a lifetime of immorality and callous disregard for others has come back to harm Trump. American politics seem to reward the worst among us, Carney said. The 2016 presidential election pitted Hillary Clinton, famous for her thirst for power, self-dealing, and disdain for anyone standing in her way, against Donald Trump, whose narcissism and infidelity had made him a celebrity decades before. Trump's wretched way of life won him billions, the presidency, and loyal support from most of the Republican electorate. This may be the first time he's paid any serious price for living his life with total disregard for morality

Starting point is 00:15:43 or for other people. Sure, false rape accusations happen, especially to billionaire politicians, but Trump never deserved the benefit of the doubt here because he lived his life in a way that earned him nothing but scorn and distrust. Trump left two wives and by all accounts cheated on all three of his wives. He bragged about sexually assaulting women and has always smeared and personally attacked everyone who ever challenged him, Carney said. Trump made his own bed by living a life of depravity. In Spectator, Alan Dershowitz called it a Rorschach text for Americans. Carroll couldn't even satisfy the low burden of proof in the rape allegation, an indication the jury apparently disbelieved at least part of the plaintiff's testimony.

Starting point is 00:16:24 an indication the jury apparently disbelieved at least part of the plaintiff's testimony. She was very specific about being raped, not merely sexually abused or molested, as the jury did find. It's a strange verdict, and the appeals court will have its work cut out for it, given that the court said Trump maliciously defamed her by essentially saying he did not rape her, which the jury also found. All in all, if the appellant in this case had a name other than Donald Trump, there is a good likelihood that the entire verdict might get reversed. Trump will have arguments on a denial of due process since this case was made possible by the extension of the statute of limitations. The judge also ruled that the names of jurors will remain anonymous, even to the lawyers, which denied them the ability to determine if they have hidden biases.

Starting point is 00:17:04 And the judge admitted the Access Hollywood tape as evidence, but excluded some evidence that the defendants sought to admit. All right, that is it for the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So first of all, I think Alan Dershowitz is right in what the right is saying when he notes that nobody can say for certain what happened between Carol and Trump in 1996. And your perception of what happened is almost certainly tied to your political biases. Which is why in order to do this exercise cleanly, I think it's helpful to just take Trump out of it. Given all the baggage that he has, I tried a thought exercise last night where I imagined someone rich and famous who I had very neutral feelings about. Let's say actor George Clooney. And then I ran through all the evidence. Clooney was okay in Ocean's Eleven and his tequila is not very good

Starting point is 00:18:03 and he seems like a fine person. I really don't have strong feelings about him in any way. So I imagined if Clooney had been caught on a hot mic describing how he grabs women, quote unquote, by the pussy because he's famous. And I imagined how I'd feel if 26 women had publicly accused him of various sexual violations, including quite a few who said he grabbed their genitals forcibly, one accused him of rape, and others who said he was just a creep. Then I imagined if one of those women sued Clooney, took him to trial, and Clooney had to get deposed. During his deposition, he reaffirmed that for millions of years, rich and famous people have been able to grab women by their genitals and unfortunately or fortunately, that is how it works. I imagine Clooney mistaking the women, accusing him of sexual assault for his ex-wife. I imagined him during the deposition being asked if he cheated on his first wife

Starting point is 00:18:54 and him saying, I don't know. I imagined if there were two women willing to testify against Clooney in a trial under oath that he sexually assaulted them. Despite the dynamics of rich and famous people often being the targets of these lawsuits, I think I would still come away believing that Clooney, a star whom I really don't have any feelings about, was guilty and a creep and probably morally bankrupt. He may not be guilty of rape in this specific case, but he's certainly guilty of doing something incredibly scummy and awful things to women throughout his life. The baggage that comes with Trump, whether you love him or hate him, can obscure this feeling. It can obscure this observation about the evidence. But for me, the thought exercise brings some clarity. From a 30,000-foot

Starting point is 00:19:40 view, Carroll's allegations are just another bullet point in a long list of reasons, including his own words, to believe that Trump is capable of sexual assault or harassment and has probably committed it. There is a mountain of evidence to support the idea that Trump has committed some kind of sexual misconduct. As for Carol in particular, she has demonstrated some very weird and unusual behavior. And that is not just my characterization, but the characterization of her own lawyer who used those words to describe her. She has given bizarre interviews to CNN and the New York Times in which her definition of rape waffles and her accounting of events changes. She did first reveal this allegation while promoting her memoir. And

Starting point is 00:20:22 there are just two people besides Carol who ever heard about the claims before she went public. This is all context worth considering. But it's also important to consider that Trump isn't exactly a reliable narrator of events either. He declined to testify, which is his right, but not doing so in a civil case can be held against the defendant, which is the law. He has claimed on social media that he and Carroll don't know each other and have never met, despite photographic proof of the opposite. Never mind the corroborating fact that Trump and Carroll were running in the same circles in New York City in the 1990s and 1980s. A few weeks ago, I said Trump couldn't get a fair trial in a place like Manhattan, where a vast majority of the residents both know and loathe him. We don't know much about the nine jurors here, but we do know some of their media diets. Two cited CNN, a few said they watch or listen to anything, others cited social media and Google,

Starting point is 00:21:16 and one cited podcasts like Tim Poole's, who is probably best described as an online provocateur who's sympathetic to the right. I'd be willing to bet the jury had a mostly anti-Trump bias, but I didn't see any major red flags and I'm sure Trump's team was happy to get six men in the jury box where it would only take one juror to sink Carroll's case. Given that they ruled in Trump's favor on the central rape allegation, one could make a good argument that Trump's issues went beyond the jury's selection. In my view, it was Trump's defense, which was weak, and his lawyer, who made some odd decisions, and his deposition, which went very, very badly. That's why he lost on the two major charges.

Starting point is 00:22:01 The lack of personal testimony hurt him, as jurors in a civil case want to see and hear from the accused saying that they are innocent. There were no witnesses from his side who called Carroll's reliability into question, and in fact there were no witnesses from his side at all. That left jurors with 11 people calling Trump a sexual predator or affirming Carroll's story, Trump's own very damaging deposition, and the ex-president's pot shots taken from social media. That was a recipe for the outcome he got, and it shouldn't be too surprising to anyone. Obviously, there are political stakes here. Will it matter? The popular take from pundits is that it won't. The Access Hollywood tape failed to sink Trump in 2016, and anyone planning to vote for him now will likely just view this as another chapter in the

Starting point is 00:22:40 quote-unquote witch hunt. I disagree, though. Trump's core vulnerability in 2020 was independent suburban voters, particularly suburban women. He asked to win them back for a chance in 2024. Being found liable for sexual abuse, doubling down on the Access Hollywood tape, and generally mocking the purported victim as not my type won't help him do so. Winning in 2024 means winning those voters back, which means first moving them from the never-Trump camp to the maybe-Trump camp. And I don't see any world in which this does anything but hurt that agenda. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. Today's question is from Daniel in Cleveland, Ohio. Daniel said, with all the recent revelations regarding Fox and Murdoch properties,

Starting point is 00:23:31 why would you choose to quote anything from a known unreliable source? I'm assuming this question was in reference to yesterday's quick hit in which we cited a Fox News story about Hunter Biden. The answer to your question is simple. Fox still does great reporting. There is a difference between opinion sections and news teams. There's a difference between opinion hosts in primetime and news hosts during the day or during breaking news events. The Wall Street Journal editorial board is a Murdoch-owned property and has an obvious political bias and agenda. The Wall Street Journal news team is a Murdoch-owned property and has an obvious political bias and agenda. The Wall Street Journal news team is a Murdoch-owned property and does Pulitzer Prize-winning journalism. One weird thing about

Starting point is 00:24:10 today's media landscape is that there is a lot of aggregation and repurposing. Obviously, we aggregate content here in Tangle. So sometimes the New York Times might get a scoop on a story, but then Breitbart News will repackage that story to fit their own narrative. In that case, I will link to the Times story instead of the Breitbart story so readers get the original source reporting. If, however, I think there are flaws with the story's original reporting, I may point to a news outlet that did additional coverage or added context. In essence, I try to get readers to the source of the news while ensuring that the source is providing information fairly with appropriate context. It often isn't easy, but that's the goal of the kinds of stories we link out to. All right, next up is our Blind Spot Report.

Starting point is 00:25:00 Once a week, we present the Blind Spot Report from our partners over at Ground News, an app that tells you the bias of news coverage and what stories people on each side are missing. The right missed a story about a Republican-led Texas committee advancing a bill to raise the purchase age for semi-automatic rifles from 18 to 21. The left missed a story about hundreds of migrants massing up near the U.S.-Mexico border wall in Tijuana as Title 42 is set to expire. All right, next up is the numbers section. The percentage of voters who in 2017 said Trump should resign because of the sexual misconduct allegations against him was 50%. That's according to a Quinnipiac poll. The percentage of voters who in 2018 said they believe Bill Clinton was a sexual predator was 53%, according to Rasmussen.

Starting point is 00:25:52 The number of women who say they have experienced a completed or attempted rape during their lifetime is one in five, according to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. The percentage of women who said they have experienced some form of sexual harassment and or assault in their lifetime, according to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, is 81%. The percentage of men who said they have experienced some form of sexual harassment and or assault in their lifetime was 43%. The percentage of rapes or sexual assaults that were reported to the police in 2018 was just 25%, according to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. All right, that is it for our numbers section, which brings us to our very much needed have a nice day story. Robert Nesman's story is a nice

Starting point is 00:26:39 interruption from U.S. news that has been dominated by political scandal, mass shootings, and partisan politics. Last week, Nesman was walking out of a job interview at an Applebee's in California when he saw a baby stroller rolling towards traffic. The baby's mother had fallen down and the stroller was barreling towards a busy street of cars. Nesman sprinted after the stroller and caught it, keeping it out of harm's way. Then he found out that he got the job he was interviewing for. After experiencing eight years of homelessness and unemployment, the viral video of the incident has turned Nesman into a folk hero. The Guardian has the story on what happened and the video, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast.

Starting point is 00:27:25 A quick heads up, we've got a new YouTube video coming out this evening at 5 p.m. Eastern. We're gonna try and be dropping these videos every Wednesday around 5 p.m. So keep an eye out for them. Please go to the YouTube channel, check it out, watch the video. It's about the debt ceiling,

Starting point is 00:27:41 and we're explaining exactly how the debt ceiling works and what happened. I think it's a pretty good piece of content. We'll be right back here same time tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by John Long. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more on Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. We'll be right back. in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes

Starting point is 00:28:45 a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+.

Tangle - The Trump verdict.

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