Tangle - The Tucker Carlson-Vladimir Putin interview.

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Starting point is 00:01:05 your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we are going to be talking about the Tucker Carlson-Vladimir Putin interview. Some of the things we learned,

Starting point is 00:02:07 what to take away from it, some of the reactions to it, how our friend Tucker did. We're going to jump into all of that stuff. It is Tuesday, February 13th. It's snowing outside here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Before we jump in, we actually have a couple things we need to address. First of all, we made it to 100 corrections. Yesterday, we had our 100th correction in Tangle's history. We referred to a Trump aide named Walter Nauta. An eagle-eyed reader alerted us that Nauta is commonly referred to as Walt, which is actually short for Waltine, not Walter. I did not know that. So you know what they say about assumptions.

Starting point is 00:02:55 This is our 100th correction in Tangle's 235-week history, and our first correction since January 22nd. We track these corrections and place them at the top of the newsletter and the podcast in an effort to maximize transparency with our readers and listeners. Also, I wanted to share some editor feedback. There was actually some strong dissent from Tangle's editor, Will Kabak, about yesterday's piece on special counsel Robert Herr's report. We often share reader feedback. I thought it'd be kind of interesting to share feedback from someone on the Tangled team. The opinion was representative of many Tangled readers and listeners who wrote in, so I'm going to share it here. Will responded to my position by saying, in my opinion, you want to avoid putting your thumb

Starting point is 00:03:45 on the political scales as much as you possibly can when you are in her position. It's not your place unless your findings are absolutely necessary to justify your decision, which, as the just security piece lays out, was not the case here. And the rationale, and Will here is talking about the rationale to include information about Biden's memory, was made even weaker by the fact that there were no concerns about Biden's age or ability at the time he was handling the classified documents, only about his current state, which seems far less relevant to this investigation. way, if a Democratic special counsel was investigating Trump for the same case, and Trump had immediately handed over the documents and cooperated fully with the investigation, and then the report cleared him on the same grounds as Biden, but said, I'm also hesitant to bring a case because Mr. Trump was aggressive and manipulative during his interviews, and I'm worried that he'll be persuasive to a jury, I'd similarly dismiss that as nonsense. That was a good argument from Will. It has

Starting point is 00:04:48 moderated my position a little bit when I argued that Robert Herr was right to share some of that information. As always, if you have thoughts about any of this, you can reach us by writing in at Isaac, I-S-A-A-C, at readtangle.com. All right, with that out of the way, we're going to jump in with some quick hits. First up, the Senate passed a $95 billion aid bill for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan, with 17 Senate Republicans bucking their party and voting for the bill. House Speaker Mike Johnson, the Republican from Louisiana, criticized the bill for not including border security, and its fate in the House remains uncertain. Number two, the special counsel for former

Starting point is 00:05:34 Representative George Santos' seat in New York's 3rd Congressional District takes place today. The district is considered a bellwether for the 2024 election and polls show a tight race. Number three, a judge ordered Elon Musk to testify in the SEC's investigation into his Twitter takeover. Number four, President Biden is hosting Jordan's King Abdullah II for negotiations on bringing an end to the Israel-Hamas war. Separately, Israeli forces freed two Israeli-Argentine hostages who are being held in Rafah, where roughly 1 million Palestinians are taking refuge. 74 Palestinians were reportedly killed in the operation. And number five, former President Donald Trump asked the Supreme Court to delay the trial where he is charged with interfering in the 2020 election while he appeals a lower court

Starting point is 00:06:20 ruling on his immunity. Tucker Carlson is out with his highly anticipated interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Now, this is Putin's first interview with a Western media figure since Russia invaded Ukraine. And Carlson posted the interview on his website. The Kremlin confirming today the interview will also be posted on their website in both Russian and English. One of our senior United States senators from the state of New York, Chuck Schumer, said yesterday, I believe, that we have to continue to fund the Ukrainian effort or U.S. soldiers, citizens could wind up fighting there. How do you assess that?

Starting point is 00:07:19 Well, if somebody has the desire to send regular troops, that would certainly bring humanity to the brink of very serious global conflict. This is obvious. On Thursday last week, former Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson released his interview with Russia's President Vladimir Putin. A rough transcript of the interview can be found with a link in today's episode description. Carlson confirmed rumors about the interview earlier in the week when he released a video explaining why he was in Moscow to interview Putin.

Starting point is 00:07:50 It was the first interview Putin has done with an American journalist since before Russia's invasion of Ukraine almost two years ago. Carlson and Putin discussed the history of Russia's relationship with Ukraine, why Russia invaded, whether Russia was willing to negotiate a ceasefire, Putin's relationship with past U.S. presidents, and Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkiewicz, who has been imprisoned in Russia for nearly a year. Putin told Carlson that Russia is going to fight for its interests to the end, but has no interest in expanding the war into other countries like Poland and Latvia. He also told Carlson that the West is realizing it cannot inflict a strategic defeat on Russia and can't determine what to do next. Many in the media

Starting point is 00:08:30 criticized Carlson for giving a softball interview that allowed Putin to spread propaganda to the West, with some dismissing it before it was even released. After its release, many historians criticized Putin's description of Russia's development and its relationship with Ukraine. Carlson received a mix of praise and criticism for the questions he asked. In a brief preamble to the video, Carlson warned viewers that Putin began the interview by giving a lengthy historical recounting of Russia and Ukraine's history. Putin's 30-minute history lesson came after Carlson opened the interview by asking, quote, the obvious question, which was why Putin invaded Ukraine,

Starting point is 00:09:05 and if he felt an imminent threat from Ukraine. Carlson said that the lengthy answer Putin gave to justify a historical Russia claim to Ukraine shocked us, and that at first he thought it was a filibuster technique. We concluded in the end, for what it's worth, that it was not a filibustering technique, Carlson said. Instead, what you are about to see seemed to us sincere, whether you agree with it or not. Vladimir Putin believes that Russia has a historic claim to parts of Western Ukraine, end quote. Throughout the interview, Putin gave answers that depicted Russia as a victim of Western aggression and broken promises. Towards the end, Carlson asked if Evan Gershkovich, the jailed journalist, could be released as an act of goodwill, but Putin rebuffed him. Instead, Putin alleged that Gershkovich received classified

Starting point is 00:09:49 documents which constituted espionage and suggested that talks were ongoing with the United States to reciprocate in some way to earn his release. Today, we're going to explore some reactions to the interview from the left and the right, and then my take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Long before Fox News hosts were caught for saying one thing in private and another on air, two leading conservatives left the network in protest of the network's tolerance of election denialism. Such claims were incompatible with their efforts to build a media company dedicated to the truth. Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes had launched the Dispatch in 2019 to build an enduring presence in the center-right for sane conservatism.

Starting point is 00:10:39 No insulting clickbait, no false outrage, no annoying autoplay videos, just reliable journalism that prioritizes context, depth, and understanding. Today, a growing community of more than 400,000 rely on The Dispatch to help make sense of a political world gone crazy. Get news and analysis that is more than a scripted reality show. Tangle readers claim your exclusive 90-day all-access free trial today by visiting thedispatch.com slash tangle. by visiting thedispatch.com slash tangle. That's thedispatch.com slash tangle. First up, we'll start with what the left is saying. The left is critical of the interview,

Starting point is 00:11:19 arguing Putin used Carlson's platform to spread misinformation about the war in Ukraine. Some say Carlson did a poor job, but doubt it will matter to his audience. Others say Putin struggled to get his message across, despite an agreeable interviewer. In MSNBC, Frank Fugluzzi said Tucker Carlson just gave Vladimir Putin exactly what he wanted. Why did Putin choose Carlson after denying other interview requests from Americans? The answer, in part, lies in Putin's keen awareness that Carlson isn't a journalist. Real journalists ask hard questions of powerful people. They push back when misleading or false information is proffered. Putin wanted none of that, Valuzzi said. Putin knew Carlson would provide just the right permissive platform

Starting point is 00:12:01 because Putin did his homework. The Russian strongman knows Carlson has repeatedly and publicly praised him and has expressed nothing but disdain for Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky. Not once did Carlson note that Putin has killed over 30,000 civilians or that he's ordered hundreds of missiles to strike civilian targets in the so-called artificial state. Carlson never asked Putin about why his political opponents get poisoned, imprisoned, or have fatal falls out of windows, he said. Instead of lifting the noble causes of journalism, democracy, or America, Carlson allowed himself to be used by a stone-cold killer. When he gets home, if he's not already home, Carlson will have to scrub away the stink of a despot who played him for a fool. In the Washington Post, Philip Bump wrote,

Starting point is 00:12:45 luckily for Tucker Carlson, his Putin interview didn't need to be good. The interview was a two-hour-long slog that had the engagement and energy of a Russian History 102 course at Bowling Green State University, Bump said. Luckily for Carlson, though, it didn't matter. One of the patterns of the past decade of American politics, really during the Donald Trump era, is that claims of importance often generate the same utility as actual importance. Here, all Carlson had to do was say, I'm interviewing Vladimir Putin, and everything else would unfold in a predictable way. What was remarkable about the interview, really, was how clearly blinkered Carlson is. He's not a dumb guy, but his blind spot on Putin and Russia was

Starting point is 00:13:25 made very obvious over the course of the discussion. He insisted in that post-interview video snippet, for example, that he'd been struck at how wounded Putin seemed to have been by Russia's treatment by the West, Bump wrote. He's angry because he feels like, whoa, why? I thought we were going to be friends, Carlson said. The idea that this was a well-practiced effect from a former KGB agent, one meant to cast the West as bad actors, does not seem to have occurred to Carlson. In Carnegie Politica, Tatiana Stanovaia assessed why Putin's interview with Tucker Carlson didn't go to plan. Putin's aim was not dialogue with the U.S. political mainstream. Instead, he was speaking to U.S. conservatives personified by the likes of Carlson, former and possible future President Donald Trump, and billionaire Elon Musk,

Starting point is 00:14:11 Donabaya said. As Putin sees it, these people are potential ideological allies and might be open to a deal in which the world is carved up into spheres of interest. Putin's complaints about mainstream U.S. political culture were not designed to hurt Biden in the current U.S. presidential campaign. Putin is thinking more long-term than that. The problem is that even when speaking to a friendly journalist like Carlson, Putin found it hard to achieve what he apparently set out to do. He was inflexible and obtuse and focused on issues that he personally felt strongly about. Carlson failed to get answers to a lot of his questions, Stanovaya wrote. The war in Ukraine and its terrible consequences have pushed Russia

Starting point is 00:14:49 into an ideological deadlock with the West and convinced the Kremlin that it is engaged in an existential struggle. Given the broader context, even a dialogue between Putin's Russia and conservative America is an extremely difficult goal to achieve. Alright, that is it for the leftist saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is mixed in their response to the interview, with many questioning Putin's rationale for invading Ukraine. Some say the interview contained a few surprises and think Carlson was a tougher interviewer than expected. Others praise the interview as a model of free speech. repeatedly get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most.

Starting point is 00:15:58 Stay in the know. CBC News. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. In the New York Post, Daniel McCarthy suggested the interview shows Putin can't win the Ukraine war, but will keep fighting it anyway. Carlson gave him the only chance he'll soon get to reach

Starting point is 00:16:40 a mass audience in America, but Putin's message was pitched to Russia first, its region second, and lastly, the non-Western world. He wasn't trying to move American opinion, not even to appeal to Trump Republicans or Tucker Carlson himself, McCarthy wrote. Putin chose not to frame his self-justifying narrative in terms that would appeal to America's culture war right. He pitched his mythology to the anti-colonialist left instead, not only in the West, but worldwide. The point of his history's tirade was to make Ukraine seem a creation of imperialism, not only an illegitimate state, but the spearhead of a 1,000-year colonial project to subjugate ever-suffering Russia. This spiel finds few believers in the West, even on the

Starting point is 00:17:22 Antifa left. But the resentment Putin voices is meant for eager ears in China and the developing world, as well as Russia itself, McCarthy said. Who, however, really wants to join Russia on the losing side of a 1,200-year war? In The American Spectator, Melissa McKenzie called the interview two hours of two very smart people circling the issues. Many expected a sycophantic interview by Tucker. Instead, he had an edge of hostility, and Putin obstinately filibustered, explained, and talked around the questions, and in some cases, comically rewrote history, something that was not unexpected. Vladimir Putin is the personification of a lawful evil character.

Starting point is 00:18:02 He has a structured and disciplined mind. He's restrained, and strangely, he's transparent in a way most Russian leaders are not. He tells the West over and over what he literally thinks, and they seek to find nuance where there is none. The foreign policy elites in America should check themselves. They've achieved their aims in Ukraine, to hide their money laundering and graft in the fog of war, and to test Russia's military might and degrade the same. It's time to end the destruction and give peace back to this region. Let go of the inane mission of killing Putin and be grateful that he doesn't possess one-tenth of the ego-consuming and blinding America's foreign policy establishment. In town hall, Sean McCutcheon wrote about talking with the enemy. Among many benefits, Tucker's interview with Putin served as a poignant reminder of the dangers of censorship and the importance of guarding against attempts to stifle dissenting voices.

Starting point is 00:18:54 Our need for transparency, accountability, and the opportunity to make up our own minds has never been greater, McCutcheon said. This cornerstone of our freedom and prosperity hinges on the ability to engage in open dialogue, even with those whose views may be detestable. By affording Putin this opportunity, Tucker Carlson championed the principle. Unlike the softball inquiries often lobbed at political figures, Carlson's questions delved into deep topics such as NATO, the war in Ukraine, U.S.-Russia relations, the U.S. dollar, China, Germany, Poland, nuclear issues, and the Nord Stream pipeline, McCutcheon said. If you believe the mainstream media and many in our government, you would think that Putin has one foot in the grave and is panicked. Instead, we have a very different picture now. Regardless of one's personal

Starting point is 00:19:38 views on Putin, the interview highlighted the complexities and nuances inherent in the exercise of free speech. Alright, that is it for the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So first off, let's start with good. First of all, it is perfectly okay for Carlson to interview Vladimir Putin. Indeed, it is in some ways impressive that he got the interview in the first place. If I were Tucker Carlson, I'd absolutely try to interview Putin, and I thought the hysteria about them sitting down together was totally overblown. As I first said when the news of this interview happening broke, there is nothing wrong with Tucker Carlson interviewing Vladimir Putin, if he is actually interviewing him. The question is what the actual interview is like. Does he ask difficult, honest questions or elevate and spread BS with softballs? That's what is important. Carlson asked some good questions, and he got some illuminating

Starting point is 00:20:42 answers. He asked Putin directly why he invaded Ukraine, and about the American journalist, Evan Gershkovich, currently being unjustly imprisoned in Russia, what it would take to end the war, denazification in Ukraine, and the Nord Stream pipeline. These were all good questions. Generally speaking, Putin gave predictable answers. He lied in places, told half-truths in others, and reframed issues from a Russia-centric lens, which is valuable for Americans to hear. Putin made enough flubs in the interview that when Russia's state media released it, they actually had to redact or alter certain portions. This is all a sign that Carlson did a decent job. But there were some

Starting point is 00:21:21 elements that were infuriating from the very beginning. For starters, before the interview was released, Carlson gave an explanation of why he was in Russia that was riddled with lies. He said Western media outlets do not try to interview Putin and hear his side, when actually media outlets reach out to Putin for interviews all the time, as Putin's own spokesperson boasted. But the Kremlin declines. Carlson said news outlets don't report on Putin's justification for invading Ukraine when many outlets do and have. Carlson has apparently ignored that reporting because he was quote-unquote shocked when he heard Putin explain that he views Ukraine as part of Russia. Carlson also claimed that no Americans are informed about what is really happening in Russia or Ukraine when actual journalists have

Starting point is 00:22:05 been dying in Ukraine or getting imprisoned in Russia while trying to report on what is really happening there. Rather than doing some self-reflection on why he's the only Western journalist Putin will speak to since the war started, Carlson instead dismisses the work of all the other journalists that have been ignored, threatened, imprisoned, or attacked by Putin since this war began. Much of the interview with Putin was similarly frustrating. Carlson's opening to the interview was important, and I hope it resonates with his many millions of fans, but the shocking part should have already been obvious. Putin's answer to Carlson asking why he invaded Ukraine was a long historical, or ahistorical if you ask some historians, diatribe on how Ukraine belongs to Russia. Vladimir Putin believes that Russia has a

Starting point is 00:22:51 historic claim to parts of Western Ukraine, Carlson said in a surprised tone. But this shouldn't be surprising. It is exactly what Putin has been saying since the very beginning. Indeed, he wrote and distributed an entire 5,000-word essay making this very case long before the war. Putin's new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions, the Atlantic Council said in 2021. It's pundits like Carlson who are the ones who have been obscuring this fact, instead blaming NATO expansion or United States policy or Joe Biden's weakness, when this entire time this central answer has been right there? I'm glad Carlson is finally seeing the light, but his revelation is really

Starting point is 00:23:31 frustrating when thousands of people have been noting this obvious point, as I and many others have, for two years. And for two years, this obvious point has been drowned out by highly influential figures like Carlson at every turn. In March of 2022, eight days after this war began, I published a piece titled Don't Lose the Plot. It was one of our most read pieces ever. Here is what I said, quote, an authoritarian leader has invaded a country that posed no threat to him because he believes that country and its 40 million innocent civilians belong to him. He told his soldiers they'd be greeted as liberators, and instead they are rightly being greeted with guns and javelin anti-tank missiles.

Starting point is 00:24:11 NATO did not make Putin launch this war. Biden did not. Trump did not. Ukraine did not. Putin did. Literally a few days after I wrote that, Carlson went on Fox News and said to millions of viewers that it was, quote, obvious that getting Ukraine to join NATO was the key to inciting the war with Russia. I was also frustrated by what Carlson didn't do. Carlson didn't ask about any of the massacres of Ukrainian civilians in towns like Bucha. He did not press him about reports of kidnappings of children. He did not ask about a single purported war crime. He did not ask about any of the imprisoned dissenters in Russia, nor any of the information crackdowns that Putin's government has instituted since the war began. Carlson was mostly unprepared to push back on

Starting point is 00:24:56 Putin's elaborate and absurd historical claims, like that Poland forced Hitler into aggression. To be fair, I don't think I would have prepared for those specific claims either, but Carlson should have been very prepared for Putin's long, rambling remarks, his subtle insults, his dodging, and his long historical rants, as these are all standard ways he conducts himself in interviews. If you're interested in seeing a well-prepared and appropriately adversarial interview with Putin, Osher is Armin Wolf put on a show in 2018. All in all, though, I'm glad this interview happened. There was plenty to criticize about how Carlson promoted and conducted the interview,

Starting point is 00:25:33 but he did much better than the hysterical media critics and establishment journalists suggested he would. I'm happy Carlson, a very important voice in America, might better understand Putin's motivations now, and I hope that realization doesn't evaporate for him or his viewers. I'm also hopeful that keen watchers, Russian historians, and other experts on this issue can use this interview to communicate the genuine threat Putin and his propaganda pose while explaining clearly the obvious realities about this war and Putin's motivations. Any sensible foreign policy needs to be informed

Starting point is 00:26:06 by these realities, and Putin is not being coy about what he thinks. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for my take. We are going to skip today's reader question because the rest of the pod got a little bit longer than usual, but we'll jump right into our under the radar section. House Republicans unveiled a new package to reauthorize and reform the United States warrantless surveillance powers. Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act allows the government to spy on non-citizens located abroad and is set to expire in April. The new proposal aims to address FBI misuse of the spying tool, but does not require a warrant, something the intelligence community has called a red line. Oftentimes, American citizens end up

Starting point is 00:27:02 being swept up in surveillance of foreigners under Section 702. The Hill has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The number of views on Carlson's interview with Putin on X slash Twitter as of 10.30 a.m. Eastern today was 199.6 million. The number of days Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich has been detained in Russia is 321. The percentage of Americans who say the United States is providing too much assistance to Ukraine in its fight against Russia is 31%, according to a December 2023 poll by Pew. The percentage of Republicans and Democrats, respectively, who said the United States was providing too much aid to Ukraine in March 2022 was 9% and 5%. The percentage of Republicans and Democrats, respectively, who said the U.S.

Starting point is 00:27:56 was providing too much aid to Ukraine in December 2023 was 48% and 16%. was 48% and 16%. All right, that is it for our numbers section. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Rodney Holbrook is a 75-year-old retired postman in Booth Wells, Wales. He's also an avid wildlife photographer, which came in handy in the most unexpected way. Randy set up night vision camera on his workbench to help him solve the mystery of why small items like corks, nuts, and belts were getting tidied up on his work surface overnight. The secret assistant turned out to be a fastidious mouse. At first I noticed

Starting point is 00:28:36 that some food that I was putting out for the birds was ending up in some old shoes I was storing in the shed, Holbrook said. 99 times out of 100, the mouse will tidy up throughout the night. I think it's possible that they enjoy it. The BBC News has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. Before we get out of here, a quick reminder. We've got a ton of new content up. A new video on our YouTube channel where we try and build the perfect president. Our interview with Bill O'Reilly,

Starting point is 00:29:10 which was published on the YouTube channel on the podcast and is now getting some trending love from YouTube, generating a bunch of views. We also have our new podcast from Sunday, where I interview Daniel Bonora from Ultimate Palestine. We talk about the conflict and share some of our disagreements and look forward to the future and what might be able to be done to repair everything that has happened over the last few months and finally somehow resolve this conflict in some way. There's a lot of content out there across our channels. I encourage you to go check it out. And tomorrow, a heads up that

Starting point is 00:29:45 we'll be running back the Valentine's Day interview. Last year, I interviewed my wife for Valentine's Day, Phoebe, and it was really popular. We got a ton of positive feedback on it. So we decided to go for the sequel this year and we got to sit down and catch up and talk a little bit. So we'll have that for you at the top of the podcast. And then we're going to run with our typical Wednesday daily podcast after that's over. Hope you guys enjoy and happy Valentine's Day. We'll see you tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady.

Starting point is 00:30:33 The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:31:21 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Tangle - The Tucker Carlson-Vladimir Putin interview.

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