Tangle - The Undecideds EPISODE 2 - Trump in question.

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

In episode 2, The Undecideds primarily talk about Trump’s legal troubles. How do they feel about his alleged crimes? How would him being convicted - or exonerated - change the way they vote? What about his claims he should have immunity as president?You’ll hear how they consider these major themes of the race, and also what they made of Haley dropping out and Biden’s State of the Union Address. Each episode we’ll focus on a different storyline from the race, and hear how these undecided voters are thinking about it. We are now 201 days out from the election.You can⁠⁠ subscribe to Tangle by clicking here⁠⁠ or drop something⁠⁠ in our tip jar by clicking here.⁠⁠ The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman.Music was composed and produced by Jon Lall--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

From Tangle Media and founder, Isaac Saul, and executive producer, John Long. This is The Undecideds. This is The Undecideds. I'm Isaac Saul, and welcome to Episode 2 of The Undecideds. This year, we're following five undecided voters from Arizona, Pennsylvania, Florida, California, and Ohio as they navigate the 2024 presidential election and come to a decision on who to cast a ballot for. Undecided voters, which some polls estimate constitute 25% of the electorate, are going to determine who wins the upcoming election. We premiered this podcast last month by sitting down with Diana, Zahid, Claire, Brian, and Phil.

We heard about their upbringing, about their political background, where they were living, and what they did for work. We also spoke to them about why they were undecided. Since that premiere podcast one month ago, a lot has happened. Nikki Haley dropped out of the race. President Biden delivered his State of the Union address. The polls have shown Biden gaining ground on Trump and the race tightening. And just this week, after we had interviewed our five voters, Trump's criminal trial in New York began, making him the first president to ever be tried in a criminal case. That timing is helpful because in this episode, we spoke to the undecideds primarily about Trump's legal troubles.

How do they feel about his alleged crimes? How would him being convicted or exonerated change the way they voted? What about his claims he should have immunity as president? You'll hear how they consider these major themes of the race and also what they made of Haley dropping out and Biden's State of the Union address. The election is now 201 days away. All right, this is Ari with Tangle for the Undecided Voter Series, back with Claire from Ohio. We're going to be talking about some updates to the race that we've seen so far. So Claire, do you have any general reactions or things that have changed for you in the last couple of weeks since we last

talked? I would say my perspective has changed a little bit. I think since last time we talked, I've definitely felt more negatively towards Trump just thinking about it more critically. I was like, just thinking about it more critically, I was like, yeah, I guess my point for him was that he might be useful to have someone more extreme in our stances abroad. And the more I think about it, the more I'm like, well, domestically and foreign, those things are very connected. And I don't think that he could unify or build trust in the people the way that he needs to domestically. And it's kind of sad. Haley has dropped out since. So now it's like, if I don't want to go for Trump or Biden, kind of just hoping that no labels comes through with a unity ticket, that might be appealing to me. Otherwise, it might be vermin supreme. I don't know.

Right. The apocryphal candidate that's been getting some headlines in past elections, vermin supreme. Great reference. Something that you said, I think I just want to follow up on. So you categorize Trump just now as having extreme positions on foreign policies. But I remember last time we spoke, he said that his positions might be a little bit more effective was the way he characterized them. So I'm wondering if that's a shift or if that's something that you just think you're emphasizing one aspect of him now more than another.

I guess I'm thinking less about whether or not his positions actually are extreme and more about the perception of them. And I think being perceived as a quite extreme person could be a good thing because like I said last time, keeping people on their toes, allies and enemies, I viewed that previously as a good thing. And now I think while that still could be good, I think the American people, a large portion of them have a negative perception that probably won't ever change. I think a lot of people are like, he's evil, he's been evil. That's the end of the story. And I do think I love that we have a wide array of opinions in America and broad cultural diversity, but we're also very loud about that. And I think it looks bad if

people abroad, they're going to look at America and be like, they're not unified on anything. They don't trust their own president. And that could be a very negative thing. and that could be a very negative thing. I think if something were to happen and America were to be attacked, maybe even a cyber attack, then we would need to fall in line, much like we've seen with people falling in line behind Zelensky and Netanyahu.

And I just don't think, I don't think Americans would be willing to fall in line behind Trump in the way that they would need to. Okay. Thank you, Brian, for joining us on the Undecided Podcast. You are joining us from Arizona. Has there been anything specific that's changed for you regarding how you're thinking about the election since we last spoke? Yeah, it's been an interesting period of time since we last spoke.

I definitely would say things have changed. And maybe not in a way that people might expect because a lot of people, they're very focused on the ground level stuff. What's going on from day to day. And the way I've been thinking through this issue has been, like I mentioned before, the top-down approach and trying to fill out what's consistent with my worldview and then make my way down into the ground level. So what's changed really has been fleshing out what does my worldview have in common with some of these other ones? So what is my connection with the Democratic Party, broadly speaking?

What is my connection with the Republican Party, broadly speaking? And what do these worldviews, where do they differ? So I've become, as I've learned more about some of the things and some of the issues that each one represents, I feel myself tottering a little bit and definitely leaning more towards that conservative bent of the Republican side. But I say that kind of loosely because conservative nowadays, to me, seems a little different than conservatism, say, 40 years ago, you know, so. Diana, thank you so much for joining us again. You're welcome. Has anything significant changed for you regarding your thinking about the election since last we spoke? Well, I don't want to say I feel hopeless because I just don't think that's a good word, but it's kind of like I'm throwing up my hands to a certain degree. It's because it's like, why is anybody even going to bother to vote at this point? It's all locked up. It's going to be Trump versus Biden. It's going to be messy. It's going to be nasty. Half of the stuff that they're going to be talking about, I don't really think has any day-to-day effect on anybody other than to make people angrier and more outraged and more inclined that they have to make their point.

So that's kind of where I am right now. Welcome back, Phil. Good to talk to you again. Thank you. you again. Thank you. First question, very quick, general. Anything big change for you in how you're thinking about the election since we last spoke? Well, no, except that, you know, that little thin hopes that Nikki Haley's candidacy might mean something, which was a very thin boat, is now passed. So I'm just taking in information as, you know, obviously listen to the State of the Union and trying to be aware. Biden's energy during the State of the Union made some of our voters reassess their opinions

on whether he is up for the job. he is up for the job. When I turned on the TV and I saw him, it was like, wow, he really looks good. He doesn't look half as bad as what he used to look like. And, well, his voice is strong, and maybe things aren't as bad as they used to be. And I know my husband is soft-spoken. Maybe it's just normally when he's talking to reporters and everything,

he's soft-spoken, and I's just normally when he's talking to reporters and everything, he's soft-spoken. And I thought he did a pretty good job with that. On the State of the Union last night, so you watched it? Yes. And general impressions for you on how Biden did, the message? Well, you know, I think, given his political opinions, he took great advantage of his bully pulpit. And he presented himself, you know, even though there was some garbled speech, he presented himself as strong, even fiery at points, humorous, playful with the opposition. I think he did as well as I could have expected him to do. Now, obviously, political speech, and that one in particular, is very one-sided. It carefully selects the presentation, and it's not a reason discourse. So I wasn't in any way persuaded by his policy perspective. And he is old. From my perspective, he is too old to govern. And four years from now, I just can hardly imagine where he will be. But I think he did a good job of appearing

strong. Thank you so much for joining us again. Sure. No problem. Glad to be back. Has anything significant changed for you regarding your thinking about the election since last we spoke? changed for you regarding your thinking about the election since last we spoke? Yes, the State of the Union address was quite something. I felt that Biden really addressed some of the key challenges that were raised by many people about his his uh lack of like enthusiasm uh i mean he isn't uh as sharp as he once used to be stuff like that so i think he was able to address those issues of course he

you know there were so many jokes um he was very energetic but um at the same time again uh i feel like he did go out and uh did show some sort of leadership in terms of how he talked about things. But then again, it was like, okay, you know, he promised a lot of things during the State of the Union address. Of course, none of those things will ever come to fruition. But still, it's good to hear that he is ambitious. He has an agenda. He has ideas. It's something to look forward to if he's reelected for the next four years. Some of our voters expressed their disappointment about Nikki Haley dropping out, an appealing candidate even to Democrat-leaning voters,

though they were ultimately not surprised. voters, though they were ultimately not surprised. Are there any surprises for you in the results? I know that you mentioned you feel a certain way about Haley dropping out. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about that as well. Sure. I don't think it was particularly surprising. I think most people expected her to drop out eventually. And it was, to be frank, surprising that she made it as long as she did, to me at least. But yeah, it's definitely kind of sad to see the Trump-Biden rematch that most Americans don't want, including myself, more solidified. I think both Haley and RFK Jr. did kind of surprisingly well

making a run for those positions. But ultimately, I think we're all feeling like, yeah, OK, at this point, post Super Tuesday, our options are Trump and Biden. We've seen Biden and Trump effectively lock up the nominations after Super Tuesday. Nikki Haley ended her campaign. Going into Super Tuesday, were those results about what you were expecting to have happen? Or did you think that Haley might have a surprise performance somewhere and might stay in? Or what was your assessment? No, I didn't. I didn't think there was any real pathway to victory. I think, and I'm glad she did, I think she was staying in to give voice to people like myself, who have basically Republican sympathies in our basic orientation to governance, but who are very uncomfortable with Donald Trump and those that seem to think there's nothing wrong with it and the power that he's gaining in the Republican Party. So I was cheerier on and I understood why people were giving money to her, even though it was hopeless, because I think we want a voice. because I think we want a voice. Were there any surprises for you in the results? And I know that before you were kind of hopeful for Nikki Haley to maybe pull this out and maybe get an opportunity.

Now that she's dropped out, how do you feel about that? I'm sorry that she dropped out. I can kind of understand why she did. I do wish she didn't. I feel like that she was more moderate. She was a voice of reason. She's not an old man in his 70s or 80s. I think a lot of her ideas were good, but also I think a lot of the things that she said, you could really tell that she has a good understanding of how Congress works, whether it's, whether Congress is working well or not. She understands this and she would be able to work with this. And I just think it would be another choice. And I,

I am afraid that she is right, that if Trump versus biden it's gonna end up being trump and like well i'm not really sure and i'm just not sure how i feel about that you know because as i said i did vote for him the first time i didn't vote for him the second time and um um i'm glad i didn't um i kind of did regret it a little bit the first time and and I'm not sure it's like, am I going to make the same mistake again? Anyway, I am sorry she dropped out, because there's just, what do you do now? And I will tell you that I did, in the primaries, I did vote for Nikki Haley because I figured if and knowing and I live in Florida, it's like we haven't had our primary yet. Knowing that even if she dropped out by the time our actual election day was, that I voted my conscience and at least I didn't throw my vote

away or say I'm not going to vote or just, you know, close my eyes and pick one, at least I voted what I felt was my conscience. So that was kind of, some people might say I threw my vote away, but I don't think I did. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. The unprecedented significance of Trump's criminal and civil trials has drawn impassioned opinions from all sides of the political spectrum. We asked our voters their thoughts on how those cases have an impact on their decision. Trump obviously, you know, always in the news.

It seems nowadays for if it's not the campaign, it's all the court cases that are happening. Are you following any of the Trump cases at all? And there's a number of them. Do you care about how many cases are currently against him? I don't really care about the number of cases against him. I do know that they're not politically motivated. Things actually have some merit. And I think that's what's important.

I know that he was having a hard time with the bail money. There was something about the bond or something along those lines where he had to come up with a certain kind of money. I know he's having issues coming up with that money. Other than that, I think the Gene Carroll decision was quite a significant blow to him, no matter what he says. It was a pair of jury decided what to award Gene Carroll.

And I think other than that, like it's it's all I mean, there's so many to keep up with. It's mostly been noise for me. But yeah, other than that, it's like, yeah, I mean, there are, of course, court cases. I mean, it's Trump. I think he's always had some sort of a legal battle going in some court. And I think he sort of, you know, welcomes it. He loves to go out there and do these things and then see what happens. Are you, as you're, you know, in your political news consumption, are you conscious of the, just the raw quantity

of the cases against Trump? Is that something that you're acutely paying attention to? Yeah, what is it? The number 91 different cases. Yeah, I'm keeping up on the reading without delving into a lot of legal details. So, yes, I'm aware. Does that number matter to you? I mean, does the 91 number make it feel more significant to you, or does the fact that it's four different criminal trials, or do you kind of see it all as just, like, lumped into a general pattern of, like, misbehavior on Trump's part? I mean, I think the answer is yes and yes. Criminal behavior, or if it's not just criminal, this repeated pattern of inflammatory, unwise behavior is the problem. I think he somehow sees himself as above the law, and that is severely problematic. I think the thing that is most dangerous and damaging is the activities that he seemed to engage in to kind of overturn the election.

Now, and I'm not talking about January 6th as much as attempting to get votes changed and what happened in Georgia. But what he did on January 6th was just completely irresponsible. I mean, I think he was convinced that the election was stolen. I don't think he was simply lying, knowing one thing and doing another. I think he's managed to convince himself and surround himself by people who were convinced that the election was stolen. And so he was acting out of that, but it was a foolish and dangerous use of power. And I never liked him, never trusted his character, but that put it over the edge for me. I wish there weren't what seemed to be somewhat more politically motivated trials against him, the financial trials in New York, where I think Trump is being treated. That's not to excuse his behavior, but the penalty is out of proportion with how people are normally treated in those situations,

and it shows a kind of political animus, and that's working for Trump and against his opponents. And I wish there was more of a focus and a focus on things that could actually expose why he is a dangerous candidate because of his failure to submit to appropriate sources of oversight and power. That's the real issue for me in terms of the cases. What do you know about his court cases? Do you know how many he has and what they are? And do you care? Honestly, I'm not as informed as I feel like maybe I should be about his court cases because I feel like there are quite a few that I don't even keep up with anymore.

Like, I think he might be still doing one for some hush money thing, but I'm not entirely sure. I am aware of the Supreme Court dropping their unanimous decision about him not being able to be kicked off the Colorado ballot. um, about him not being able to be kicked off the Colorado ballot. And I am aware that he's put forward another case, um, wanting full immunity. Um, but that's, that's about it. I don't keep up on regular updates that much. Things that have been in the headlines with Trump recently is like you said, the Supreme court agreed to hear arguments about his immunity regarding the January 6th case, which may delay the January 6th election interference case until after the election. In another case, the court reinstated Trump on the Colorado ballot after the state Supreme Court disqualified him last year,

which really isn't even one of the cases in which he's a charged defendant. And meanwhile, his first criminal trial begins in New York later this month. Has any of that had an impact on the way you think about the former president? I don't think it really has because like most of them are prosecuting things that we already knew about. We know what happened at least for the most part on January 6th and what the reaction was. And so I think a lot of people, including myself has have more or less formed judgments about how we feel about that whole scenario um and i think it's also pretty typical of him we saw when with um the 2024 or the with the last election that he kept kind of throwing cases into the courts even if they were highly likely to get thrown out um so i think honestly that a lot of it might just

be to keep his name in the headlines as well like it is just more press and good press you don't forget his name when people are reporting on how he's doing in X, Y, and Z court case, regardless of whether it's legitimate or not. So that's kind of my perspective. Trump's court cases have been dominating the news in recent weeks. Are you following the cases at all? And I know there's obviously a number of them. So again, are you following these cases? Do the numbers matter to you? I'm not following them on a day-to-day basis because quite frankly, it's just too much. And it's just too much to keep track of. I will tell you, I am glad that he was not thrown off the ballot because I think regardless of what you think of a candidate, I mean, you know, you're talking to candidates that are not candidates.

You're talking to voters that are undecided. But there are a lot of voters out there that are decided. And whether we like him or we don't like him and whether we like Biden or we don't like Biden, there are people that like either one. And I just feel like regardless of who you want, you have a right to vote. And I think that taking him off the ballot was really political. You know, you can say what you want about January 6th. And I do think that he had a lot to do with January 6th. I just think that's opening a can of worms that we really don't know what could happen. Focusing back on Trump, obviously his court cases dominate the news. Are you following that at all? Do you, I mean, just quickly, do you know how many

court cases he has? Well, it sounds like there are several with some 90 some odd felony charges. So I've been keeping kind of a one eye towards that and seeing what's going on here. And so, yeah, I've seen some of what's been going on there, read just a little bit into some of the specifics. And that in and of itself is overwhelming, seeing all of the stuff laid out there. So yeah, it's big, big stuff has a huge impact on what's about to happen, I would say. Are any of those cases impacting you, how you're thinking about it are you following any of them are any of them of particular interest to you i would say there's there's a lot that needs to be considered because uh this is this is obviously a major issue and i think that it needs to be addressed

but i i'm impacted in kind of a different way than and most people might think my questions about everything kind of you know if he's guilty he's guilty and i think he should be held accountable uh you know speaking as a christian i have a basis for uh believing that there are there is justice and that there's morality and that there's an objective standard by which to measure trump against i think he needs to be held accountable to that standard but my question is you know january 6th that was we're in 2024 now that was what three years ago um all these other things like and it may be i'm misinformed it could be

the case but like are these things if this has been, stick with January 6th, because I know that one was a while ago. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history,

and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season?

Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCcellvax.ca. Why wasn't this brought up back then around that time? Maybe it was.

Maybe I just totally missed it. me it's like okay is there a coincidence between bringing all this up and really like piling it on stick now and the fact that he's running again like um this this is very interesting to see the timing of it why press so hard why full court press now uh when it should have been addressed you know close to when it actually happened, why has this not been done swiftly? Why the delays? Why all of this stuff? And again, I'm not trying to say that he's innocent. He very well could be guilty, and I think he needs to be processed, and he needs to have judgment fall on him, as he will one day for everything he does. But in my mind, the way I'm

influenced by this is I'm looking at this like, why now? Are we weaponizing justice or are we enforcing justice? We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. this quick commercial break. Trump has argued in court that he should receive total immunity for any actions that he's being accused of during his presidency. What is your opinion on the argument of presidential immunity, if you have one? I tend to think that that would not set a good precedent at all to say that presidents can essentially do anything when they're in office and just be immune in the future. I think we should retain the right to prosecute presidents. Now, whether we should do that and how often, I think is an open question, but I think it should be at least kind of engrained in our precedent that we reserve the right to say a president has broken the law and they should be prosecuted for something. knowing that if they get an office, that they can do whatever they want without facing judicial

consequences, especially because the whole founding principle of the United States was to have three branches of government that would offer checks and balances on those other governments. And to say that the judicial branch is suddenly not allowed to check the executive branch, I think would be really negative. You know, let's say in current time, he's the president. How far do you think that immunity should extend? If he is showing willful negligence to take a decision that results in like, you know, absolute harm, I really don't think he should be above the law when it comes to

being judged on those decisions. But then again, if he makes the decision based on the information given to him at the time, and you know, there is enough of a paper trail to back that up that I think that he should be or a president should be given that kind of, you know, room to play with. or a president should be given that kind of, you know, room to play with. But other than that, it's like if there is negligence involved, which to me, it seems like there might have been willful negligence involved in things that he might have done, which is why he would be going after the fact that he wants to be, you know, someone who's immune to these kinds of judgments. And I think that's where the problem arises. I really don't think he has good intentions. So if he had good intentions, like, hey, I might, you know, do something that might turn out in hindsight, that it was a bad decision. I don't

want to be blamed for that or taken to court. But I don't think that this is what that's about. What are your feelings about Trump's argument that you know he should have outright immunity for the actions while he was president dangerous dangerous um i'm sure there are um aspects in which every president needs immunity um to be to function in a position of power over the military so i i think that could be defend the day according to law but universal immunity um for you know to the extent to which is guilty of trying to get people to change votes and officials to alter that or find more votes. Now, the presidential immunity, obviously, had happened to apply to that. But what argument could one construct to convince the average person that immunity for the sake of the country applies to that. So, no, I'm expecting the Supreme Court to send it back and let the case go on.

I can't imagine that they're going to find a case for immunity. But the delay, you know, why is it? Why is it now that this has happened? Where where is the prosecution? Why did it allow it to get to this point? What's what's going on here? I don't have the answers to that. just to get a little bit specific, what do you think about Trump's argument in the January 6th case that he should have presidential immunity for acts taken while he was president? Do you believe that he should have that immunity? This is one area that I have on my list of stuff to work through. The January 6th stuff, the election fraud, and specifically the fraud cases and what's going on in New York. In terms of immunity, first, I really want to find out, okay, revisit January 6th. Look at all the facts again. Look at what happened there. I have plenty of friends who were on the ground there who were present. I want to go see kind of their take, hear some of the other takes, and find out, okay, what was really said here? Because my trust in the reporting of things has become suspicious as well with this bloodbath headline that's been making its way around. So, before I can really speak to should he be immune, I mean, in my mind, I don't think anybody's above the law, okay? If he full-on was the sexual cause of an insurrection and we want to hold that standard, then yeah, I think that,

that really needs to be, that needs to be pressed on. That needs to be fleshed out. That needs to be like, that needs to take priority there. Uh, we need to get at the bottom of that. I want to figure out what did he actually say? What actually happened there? Because I still feel like I'm getting the third, the fourth hand information stuff. So it's really hard to pinpoint where I'm at right now. But I suppose, like I said, he did, that is his full on doing. And he brought up an army to storm the Capitol. Yeah, time to hold him accountable and to make sure that he pays for that but is that exactly what he did you are a christian man you your job is you create leather-bound bibles i'm sure you might have heard that President Trump is now

selling his own Bible for $59.99, which is actually the cost of a yearly Tangle membership. I'm curious, just what are your reactions to hearing Trump

saying, using the slogan, make America pray again, and using the Bible. Yeah, well, if I remember right, that Bible has also in it the Constitution, Declarations, stuff like that. I am... That's interesting. I know that he's doing that. I know that Bible's out there.

interesting i i know that he's doing that i know that bible's out there i don't subscribe to his his angle here if that makes sense um i think he should probably read it first all the way through and then rethink the campaign to sell his own bible because yeah of course i want america to pray again i want uh i want I want America to go back to its Christian roots. I don't think that's what Trump is doing here. I mean, nominally, sure, he might say, yeah, I am a Christian. But you got to get into the weeds a little bit at that point and say, what do you mean? Because, I mean, nowadays, a lot of people say they're Christian in America because we came from Christians. We have Christian roots, but what

does it mean that you say you're a Christian? Uh, what, you know, and putting those other documents in there. I mean, I think it's going to send the wrong message sometimes to certain people. You know, these documents are as inspired as the 66 books between the covers. That's not an idea I want getting up there because these documents are not the word of God. Um, and so I, I take, I take some issue with that. If someone asked me to rebind that, I'd have to take a look at it and say, okay, cause we've, we've denied other religious texts for the reason that they're not the word of God. That's not our mission. So I'd have to think now if someone

said, please remind my America Prairie again Bible. Let's talk this one through, friend. Let me see if I can get you a better translation, maybe. Let's, for the sake of the argument, say that he believes that while president any and all actions he takes um he has full immunity do you uh agree or disagree with that statement can you kind of expound on your thoughts on that while you're in office i guess i would say i i. Again, because you've got very difficult decisions to make. You know, because you could go back and look at like, was it Reagan? I think it was Reagan with the Iran-Contra thing. You could look at a lot of things. Well, should he be prosecuted for that? You look at George Bush, you know, the whole war because of weapons of mass destruction. It turned

out they were not there. Should he be prosecuted for that? No. I mean, they did what they thought they had to do at the time. Maybe some of it was sneaky, maybe some of it wasn't, but no, I don't think they should be prosecuted for that. I know before I had said that little thing about, you know, if the president murdered somebody, he wouldn't have immunity for that. But I would say day-to-day presidential decisions, which a lot of these were the decisions that Trump made, he just didn't do them correctly. I think he would have immunity, but outside of office, no. So everything he has done, like with all the documents and, you know, not giving the documents up and lying about the documents, what he had and trying to hide the documents and all that documents and, you know, not giving the documents up and lying about the documents,

what he had, and trying to hide the documents and all that. No, he shouldn't have immunity for that at all. Because, I mean, he was trying to impede justice there. Are the results of these trials likely to influence your decision of who you're going to vote for in this election? Either way, whether he's convicted in one case or more case, or if he gets off on all the cases. Is that something that's going to weigh on your decision? If he gets off, it will have absolutely no effect. If he gets off, it will have absolutely no effect. Because I think he's guilty, as I said, of foolishness and presumption and ethical breaches. If he's convicted, that might help me hold my nose and vote for Biden,

just because the absurdity of electing a president who's been found guilty of a serious abuse of power just is problematic, the extreme. Okay, so you are a little skeptical, it seems, of the merit behind some of these cases and why they're getting prosecuted now. So let's say in the future he does become guilty and is convicted of something, whether it's the criminal case or election interference in Georgia. How much would that weigh against you voting for him? on me and how I view him. But I would respond to that and say, I don't think the other side has done any better. I think there's just as much perversion and lawlessness on the record of Joe Biden as there is Trump, be that as it may, that they are different allegations and Biden's not under the same sort of attack that Trump is. And my stance is the same for Biden as it would be for Trump and vice versa. If Trump's guilty, then he needs to be held accountable for that. Absolutely.

But in terms of this race, I'm not sure if it would have quite as much of an impact on my voting for him, simply because I can point to Biden and say there's just as much disgusting evil that he's done as well from the Christian perspective against God's law that Trump has. So, you know, if these are the two guys, then, you know, he's, I think they're both guilty of great shameful things. So know am i gonna not vote trump and vote biden well that's going to uh to me i don't see that as really um very consistent because both have blemishes and whether or not they're recognized by law uh what the law states, you know, that's also another window into the condition of our nation morally is, okay, Biden can get away with things, transgressions against God's law that Trump can't,

you know, that's, I see that as just a window into how things really are, which to me is just, it's bad. So to answer your question, in short, really, I don't think it's going to have much bearing because in my book, both men are terribly guilty and need to repent of the wrongs that they've done and how they've transgressed against the law of God. So, you know, in this case, I feel like I'm voting for two guilty individuals, whoever the vote lies with. If Trump is convicted in any or all of the criminal trials he is in before the election, how would that, if it would affect it at all, how would that affect your decision? I am still undecided. So it would affect it at all, how would that affect your decision? Miso, I am still undecided. So it would definitely be a clear choice then. But at the same time,

I would like, you know, would really worry that, you know, what if he is convicted, and then he does get elected? I really don't know what he will end up doing after that. Because, you know, he is not someone who takes these things lightly. Ego is very important to him. So that's something that I'm worried about. If he does get convicted, I think he will force never drop out. I don't think he is ever going to drop out. But things can happen.

He could be asked to drop out and someone else might come over. But like, I just don't see that happening. But my decision at that time would, of course, be not voting for him. If Trump is convicted in any of the criminal trials that are ongoing, if they get decided before the election, how, if at all, would that impact your decision to vote for or against him? I guess it might depend on which case it is, but I think that it largely probably wouldn't impact my decision because it's just so difficult to evaluate whether the cases are decided on legitimate grounds. When I was in the room, I don't know what the evidence was, but it's hard for something to be impartial when everyone in the entire U.S. has an opinion on Trump and it's right before the election. It's like how much of it could be considered interference, but at the same time, you want to get it done fast because otherwise it becomes even more interference the closer you get to the election.

And it might be a very legitimate case that they have. Like, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know. If you have a good case against him, then what is the alternative than to let that case run its course as fast as possible? alternative than to run let that case run its course as fast as possible um so it's hard to know is it you know poor motives and bad actors trying to interfere and playing with people's preconceived opinions or is it a very legitimate case that deserves to be you know brought and prosecuted as soon as possible i feel feel like I don't have the knowledge to evaluate which one of those it is. So I lean towards not letting it affect my opinions much at all.

If Trump is convicted before the election, how would that impact your decision making? I would not vote for him. I'm not going to vote for a convicted criminal. The criminal case, I will tell you, none of that's going to be decided by the time of the election. But if for some reason it was, if he was convicted, that's it. No question asked, he's done, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, you cannot have a convicted criminal in the White House. I think it's bad for the country. I think it's bad for the world. I know that's a quick answer, but that's, yeah, I'm not going to vote for a convicted criminal. if you had to say right now which way you're leaning um are you leaning any particular way um yes i am leaning more republican um i am leaning more towards trump than i am biden

i i will admit and it's all uh it's all goes back to, and for people who may not understand worldview, maybe ideology might make more sense. I don't know. Because, you know, worldview, a network of presuppositions, what, what are my guiding presuppositions? That's kind of how I define worldview. Those are more in alignment with what the Republican Party stands for. Just the little I've done in this last month, that's the way I'm leaning. So I would say that if I had to cast right now, I would probably do Trump on that basis. So I'm definitely leaning more that direction. The more I look into this, the more I investigate and really try to apply myself and my worldview consistently. Where we're currently at in this point in the campaign season,

are you leaning one way or another? I would say I'm still not leaning one way or the other. But I really was sort of like, you know, happy and now confident that, you know, at least if I do end up leaning Democratic in this election and vote for Joe Biden, like I think he still has some juice left in him for for next four years. something that uh you know i the takeaway from the state of the union but other than that i'm still undecided uh you know i mailed in my ballots like three four weeks ago um i just you know to make a point uh you know i voted for dean phillips uh he was on the ballot and of course like they're like about i just looking at it i think the election results results are not completely in, but he got like 100,000 votes. So I wasn't the only one voting for him. But yeah, Dean Phillips, I think he might have dropped out already. But yeah, I voted for him.

And just to send a message that, OK, you know, there needs to be more needs to be done from the Democratic side to get the vote. Last question. Gut check. How are you leaning if you had to say one way, a certain percentage point towards one candidate or another versus a third party? What are you thinking? I would say I'm saying more solidly towards a third candidate. And I'm seeing a lot of op-eds and articles and whispers about no labels potentially running something. And so I'm hoping that that comes to fruition because I'm kind of the target audience to that as someone who doesn't really have any allegiances to either party. So I would really like to see that happen. It's just a matter of whether it is or not this late in the game. But that's what I hope because right now I don't really find any of the third candidates that appealing, but marginally more appealing than

the other two options. Leaning, not necessarily decided, where would you say you're leaning right now? Right now, I'm leaning toward writing in Nikki Haley as a statement. But I'm more open to voting for Biden than voting for Trump. Oh, sorry. My two-year-old is up. Last question.

If you had to say right now, which way are you leaning? Is there a reason? Well, right now, I'm leaning towards Biden. And I think part of it is, and this is purely a gut reaction, I really didn't watch the State of

the Union. I read the transcript afterwards, but it's just, you know, all the booing and all the, you know, it's just like, we don't need this. And I think the State of the Union address is rather aspirational anyway. I mean, a lot of this stuff isn't going to happen. It'll never get through Congress. I don't agree with all those positions, but some of the more important ones, I am worried about what will happen with the war, with Ukraine, if Trump becomes president. that do not understand how far-reaching this can be. And just kind of reading that and kind of looking at each point. Right now, I'm leaning more towards Bible. Today. Today, yeah.

No, that's been for about a week, so. Thank you again for joining us. You're welcome. Excited to continue this journey with you. I think you've got a lot of insight and it's really great talking with you. Well, thank you. It was good talking to you too, John. That's it for Episode 2. Our next episode will focus on President Biden,

how our voters feel about his age, his memory, and how he has fared on foreign policy. I'm Isaac Saul, and thank you for tuning in to The Undecideds. and edited and engineered by John Long. Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokova, Will Kabik, John Long, and Ari Weitzman.

Music was composed and produced by John Long. For more content from Tangle Media, please go to our website at retangle.com. To be continued... about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot.

Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca.