Tangle - The Undecideds EPISODE 3 - The Age of Biden

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

For episode 3, our focus shifts from Donald Trump toward President Joe Biden. Much has been made in the media about his age and memory and whether he’s cognitively capable of handling another term. But an unanticipated performance at the State of the Union reignited his base and left many questioning that narrative. And while Donald Trump faces a jury of his peers in court, the court of public opinion continues to weigh in on the effectiveness of Biden’s foreign policies, with an eye to the conflicts between Israel and Palestine, Ukraine and Russia, and our own protracted clash at our southern border.  Our undecided voters share their observations on the current commander in chief and how his decisions on the world stage affect their decision in the voting booth.Each episode we’ll focus on a different storyline from the race, and hear how these undecided voters are thinking about it. We are now 179 days out from the election.You can⁠⁠⁠ subscribe to Tangle by clicking here⁠⁠⁠ or drop something⁠⁠⁠ in our tip jar by clicking here.⁠⁠⁠The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman.Music was composed and produced by Jon Lall--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

From Tangle Media and founder, Isaac Saul. And executive producer, John Long. This is The Undecided. This is The Undecideds. I'm Isaac Saul, and welcome to episode three of The Undecideds. In our last episode, our five undecided voters, Diana from Florida, Zahid from California, Claire from Ohio, Brian from Arizona, and Phil from Pennsylvania, gave us their opinions on former President Donald Trump.

We discussed their thoughts about his securing enough delegates for the Republican nomination, his pending and ongoing civil and criminal trials, and the effect those proceedings have on their final decision. On today's episode, our focus shifts towards President Joe Biden. Much has been made in the media about his age and memory and whether he's cognitively capable of handling another term. But an unanticipated performance at the State of the Union reignited his base and left many questioning that narrative. And while Donald Trump faces a jury of his peers in court, the court of public opinion continues to weigh in on the effectiveness of Biden's foreign policies with an eye toward the conflicts between Israel and Palestine, Ukraine and Russia, and our own protracted clash at the southern border. Our undecided voters share their

observations on the current commander-in-chief and how his decisions on the world stage affect their decision in the voting booth. The election is now 179 days away. All right, this is Ari with Tangle sitting here again with Claire from Ohio. How have you been doing since last time we talked, Claire? I've been pretty good. How have you been? Also very good. Thank you. Anything significant in your politics or your worldview since last we talked?

Anything that you'd want to catch us up on? I don't think there's been any significant change. I think right now I'm like looking forward to debate because if there is one, that'll be like my Super Bowl. At least I can get entertainment value from the disappointment. Stark but fair. So we reported today, actually, as we're talking Wednesday, April 10th, we reported on a joint letter from major networks urging the candidates to have a debate. Is that something that you've seen? Yeah, I did see that. Thoughts

on that? I assume pro from what it sounds like. Yeah, I would like to see it. I know I've heard people say that they're both former presidents and so we can kind of look at their track record and that there's nothing to be learned from a debate, which I completely understand. But I think it's also important to keep up a precedent of having the two candidates actually talk to one another rather than like preaching to their respective crowds. I think it's generally good for democracy for them to kind of face hard questions from moderators. So I would still like to see a debate for sure. Zahid, thank you so much for joining us again today. Sure, happy to be here.

We'll start off this episode as we usually do, which is just checking in and seeing if anything has changed for you since we last spoke. Nothing has really changed. There was a point where I felt that the third party candidate, Kennedy, was someone who, you know, you're wasting your vote per se if you vote for him. That's how I felt, especially after there were some leaks or maybe some videos of some party strategists talking about how it's like, you know, he is talking to Trump about how he wants to be part of his campaign and stuff. So that's, I felt like that was, of course, a no-go. So no, no changes yet. Still very much undecided. Diana, thank you so much for joining us again today.

Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. You too. Yeah. And our audience really loves hearing from you as well. So this is really great. First up, our first question that we'll pretty much always start with is, has anything significant changed for you since last we spoke? I don't think so. I think last time I was saying I was leaning towards Biden, and definitely, unless something major happens, right now I'm definitely voting for Biden, unless I get brave enough like they did in Pennsylvania and write in Nikki Haley, which may be a possibility. But I would say, you know, seriously, at this point,

it would probably be Biden. Again, not that I want to, but it's, I think, the lesser of two evils. So. All right, Phil, welcome back. First question for you. Same question that I will ask at the start of all of our conversations, which is anything significant change for you or any new developments in how you're thinking about the election since we last talked? Probably not. I mean, I found Donald Trump's episode with the MAGA Bible insulting enough to just drive me further away from him. But that's probably not a change, just an accentuation of my troubles with the man.

Sure. I can imagine. I honestly didn't think of you when that story came out. Okay, Brian from Arizona. Today we're going to talk about President Joe Biden. What are your biggest concerns with Biden's presidency so far? Oh, man, there's a bit to go into. Obviously, like I mentioned in the very first episode, it's hard living out a consistently Christian walk under the Biden administration. So I'm speaking more to very personal aspects that I've been affected by.

The lockdowns were hard. You know, we were all threatened when our churches that, uh, we had open would not close the, um, transgenderism issues and the, the, um, the pronoun issues, you know, respecting people's pronouns. That is extremely difficult. And definitely from what I've seen advocated, uh, by the Biden administration, um administration between, you know, who's being hired for what positions for all the way to the laws being instated, which some of it, you know, it's it reflects a worldly shift. Because I know it like in other countries, they're working on getting laws out there to criminalize things like that. And there doesn't seem to be any opposition from the administration. And, you know, that kind of stuff makes it hard to live a consistent

Christian lifestyle in bringing people to repentance and faith in Jesus. You know, the abortion issues and a lot of the stuff going on there, just the overall worldview consensus coming from that side is very pro-choice, calling it women's rights and healthcare. And of course, you know, the southern border. I mean, I'm only two hours away from the border, two and a half hours away, and there's just a lot going on. People are being affected by how many people are coming over to our side, and's it's pretty messy so you know in that respect it's been difficult watching this administration do what it's doing watching joe biden on tv is i i get a lot of secondhand embarrassment i felt my cheeks flush a couple of times

watching a stammer over certain things and it And it's kind of hard to watch, which also there's so many questions surrounding that too. But yeah, I've been greatly affected by this administration in a lot of negative ways. Last time we talked about Donald Trump a good bit. So this time we're going to be focusing a little bit on Joe Biden. Looking at his track record so far, we're about four years in almost a full term for President Biden. What are your biggest concerns with Biden's presidency so far? Yeah, I would say one of them is not really displaying strong leadership in terms of things going on abroad. I would like to see us be working towards peace in Ukraine and in other conflicts.

And I feel like right now we're kind of fueling conflicts instead of being the one to step in and try and promote that peace. I also am concerned with the economy. While on some metrics, it's doing pretty well. I think he kind of needs to acknowledge that I believe a graph came out today that food prices are as high as they've been since President Nixon. And a lot of people are, you know, feeling that very deeply. And so I think that's something that he should address as well as issues at the border are a major priority for a lot of Americans. And I haven't heard him speak a lot about that or acknowledge that it is a problem that we need to be coming up with innovative solutions for. So I think a lot of the issues are not just policy but in communication you know

i wouldn't call trump a good communicator but he did let people know what he was doing um and i think even many of the good things that biden has done like child tax credit things and the infrastructure bill um i think he should be promoting a lot of those now in a way that I'd like to see him really show Americans what he has done. What would you say are your biggest concerns with Biden's presidency so far? I think that's an easy one. I think the biggest concern is his foreign policy stance, because it's been, what, six months plus now? stance because it's been what six months plus now there's a war in the middle east and i think it's i mean i felt that his stance and his leadership is almost non-existent on that issue i seem maybe this is very naive of me but i do seem to think that if he were to make a phone call

to netanyahu and say hey you got you need to stop and then make a phone call to mbs in saudi arabia and be like hey you guys need to really uh get on you know talk about this issue solve it somehow and this needs to end within a week i think it's possible that america has that kind of might to make that happen but i think um israel is doing what it can to get the hostages it's clearly not working um and on the other side there's destruction and you know uh the debt toll is quite high for you know everyone to be like okay you know what this is something that's really not you know this is not sustainable you can't keep doing something as bad as what's happening right now in gaza expect that there would be some sort of a peaceful resolution to all this.

Because it's just bad. It's just bad how things are there. So I think there is no leadership there. Secondly, I also felt that recently, of course, it's in the news this week, there are a lot of protests happening in universities across the country. And I feel like him not standing up for free speech, because trust me, if those things were happening somewhere else in the world, and I'm pretty sure there would be some statement from the Biden administration about how, you know, we stand for free speech. But this is a US university, and there are many issues with how protesters have done or organized themselves. But at the end of

the day, it still seems a little extensive, I mean, a little excessive in terms of force that's been applied at these universities to curb the protests. So I think I would have expected the administration to have some thoughts on that. Again, there's something else, of course, the border is another issue with Texas, how it was trying to stop Texas from defending its borders. And I think that's just an overreach in my view. I think Texas has a right to do whatever it needs to do to curb the inflow of migrants from the southern border. So I think that's also sort of an overreach. And so, yeah, those are like a few things that come to mind.

Today, I want to focus on Joe Biden and his presidency and also some of the issues that are maybe animated to the left or animated to Democrats in this campaign. And to start, I would just ask for maybe a general assessment on your end of the Biden presidency so far, and maybe pick out one or two of the biggest qualms or concerns you've had about how his presidency has gone? Okay. You know, I'm probably not extremely negative. I think his age, the struggles with capacity that I'm seeing now and fear will happen, that's at the top of the list. But I also think immigration policy, the immigration challenges have kind of been out of control in this last four years. And the gestures were too little, too late. I mean, I was frustrated by the Republican Party backing out a negotiated semi-solution that would have given us some progress. But that doesn't cause me to say, oh, the Republican Party is on the wrong side of this issue and the Democratic Party is on

the right side, because I tend to think it's reversed and having family in Arizona, the frustration levels with immigration have grown high. And there's just been a sense until radical steps are taken, you know, shipping the immigrants to sanctuary cities. There's little impact on the public perception. So I would say those are my primary concerns. I think there's a tendency toward identity politics, toward a support of DEI in a way that I don't think is doing the country any good. I don't hold Biden responsible. I think that's a cultural phenomenon, but I think he's in a political position where he has to lean in a certain direction. I wouldn't know how much of it is his personal convictions. I thought it was

revealing that he called the person guilty of murder, he called that person an illegal immigrant and that he had to backtrack on that as an undocumented immigrant. That was in his, in the State of the Union when he was talking about the death of Lakin Riley, yes. The fact that one can't say illegal immigrant without a reaction reveals a kind of orientation attitude that I don't think is doing the country any good. But that's not Biden's fault. We're in a better position than we were when it all began. But again, that's more about COVID than it is about Biden. I'm frustrated with his State of the Union speech. I thought it was good. I think I've mentioned that he went a long way toward dispelling the worst opinions about his capacity. But my primary problem is he's making all kinds of promises, but there's no economic responsibility. It's not a reasonable solution. And of course, I'm not sure Trump offers any economically reasonable solution and is facing the problems. But that doesn't make me like Biden anymore. So that's that's kind of my initial reaction. You are currently leaning towards Biden with some hesitancy. What would you say are your biggest concerns about his presidency so far? would you say are your biggest concerns about his presidency so far? Well, of course, there is his age. I don't know that he'll literally survive another four years. There's also Afghanistan. I think the way he pulled out of Afghanistan was terrible. It was a real slap in the face to our military. It was, I think,

it sent a very bad message to the world. You know, here these Afghans trusted us, a lot of them worked to help us, and they were just left to hang out to dry. And I'm sure a lot of those people are now dead. They've probably been tortured and murdered. And, you know, if we got in a situation like that again, who knows if people would be willing to trust us or help us. The student loan, I really don't think that we should be paying off all these student loans. It's money that the country needs, that the government needs. I think that in a few exceptions, maybe for law enforcement, teachers, medical personnel, that might be a reason to maybe pay loans expensive way to go to, you know, go to a community college and then finish out at a state college. Or if you can somehow get your profession to, if, you know, an employer would pay for college.

But I just think if you really can't afford to go, then you just, you've just got to figure out a way to pay the loans. I just don't think it's fair to make the residents do it. I have a 40-year-old that is still paying off his college loans, and he's an attorney. I think there is too much money that is given away to people. I think I said in the beginning I'm kind of in the middle, but I'm probably more fiscally conservative but socially liberal. So a lot of the social

things he does to a certain degree, I pretty much agree with, but some of the financial things, not so much. So that's why I'm hesitant to vote for him. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. We've touched base a bit on this before. I think early on, you've mentioned that you had some concerns a bit about Biden's age and perhaps his memory and where he's at on a capacity level. What would you say are your concerns regarding that currently, especially now that we've kind of seen him after the State of the Union? We've heard a little bit of testimony during the Robert Herr hearing. What would you say are your thoughts now after those two events?

Yeah, I think he was very much upbeat during the State of the Union. And I think I don't have any more. I don't have concerns the kind that I had before. Because at the end of the day, yes, he has to be the face of the country and stuff. But there are people around him that make most of the decisions or have him. I mean, they help him come to a conclusion or give him advice so I think I'm like we are okay when it comes to his judgment because I don't think his judgment is flawed or anything but yes age was a concern I really don't think it's a concern anymore at least not for me do you have any concerns about biden with his age and any of you know memory issues

or anything like that if he were to win a second election uh yes short answer yes i'm i i think i mentioned before like the secondhand embarrassment is real um it's not fun to watch him on camera um the hot mic situations that happen the stuff that comes out when it shouldn't it uh it has me concerned that is is he out there like is is he aware of kind of everything that's going on uh and again this is a perception so this is this is what i'm seeing live on tv this is what i'm reading from other people all the silly pictures all the clips like yeah the fact that he's gosh how old is he he's in his 80s right yeah i believe Yeah, I believe you'll be 81. Yeah. I had a grandma just turn 80. And sweet, love her to death. And she's not the same woman that she was when she was 70 or 60.

Because I can remember back in those days. So, I mean, anybody approaching that, of course. And I also have family in their 90s that are sharp as a tack. They're really on top of it. I would have some concerns even with my family taking a position like that for as sharp as they are. You know, just all things considered. Who knows? He could have a heart attack tomorrow. So, yeah, his age is quite a bit concerning.

How do you consider Biden's age when you assess his presidency and his candidacy? I think it is a concern that I don't know if he would actually make it through another four years as president. I mean, it's a highly stressful job. Even if you're not taking into account any visual cues or auditory cues from how he's acted lately, even if you're just purely looking at age and the stress level of the job, like it's concerning for anybody. And then I think when you add on top watching recent speeches, I think you can see that he's not as sharp as he used to be. And that rolls into the issues with communication if you can't communicate clearly at a time when americans need a lot of leadership um a lot of guidance about what's going on abroad and a lot of guidance about what's going on at home and you can't effectively communicate with them and they don't have confidence with you, then I think that that's an issue. So I don't purely say

like I wouldn't vote for someone because of their age. I don't think that it'd be a concern with just any president, but I think it's more of a concern of is that age going to affect the way people treat him, respect him or not respect him, the way he can communicate to Americans. All of those things I think are very important for a president to be able to do. And I think that age might negatively impact those things. And considering that they're already like not good to sign up for four more years of that when it's more likely than not going to decline in those areas, I think is a really difficult choice to make. What are your concerns regarding his age or memory? I think as far as his age, it's really

is, it's just his age. He's 81 years old. He is going to be, what, like 85, 86. And it's just, it's a very high-stress job. Yes, he does seem to be in fairly good shape. I think he does have some memory issues, but quite frankly, my mother died when she was 93, and she had some memory issues too, but I don't think they were anything out of the ordinary for somebody that age. But now, if you're going to be president of the United States, you can't really have that. Some of the things I think that Biden does, I think they're just kind of blips that sometimes we all do, sometimes they're not. But Trump has done them. Obama did them. I mean, everybody and all of us do that sometimes. But it is mainly just simply because he is just so old. You can talk, you know, Trump was all over him because he tripped somewhere.

Well, I remember when Trump tripped at some something or other. Gerald Fortran, everybody trips. And when you're on camera all the time, it's going to be caught. But it really is simply just his age. But that's another thing I don't like, aside from the moral and ethical issues. Trump, too, is really getting up there. I mean, I think we just need somebody younger. It's, you know, now Trump seems to be doing very well physically and is very energetic.

But, you know, you just don't know. I just think it's a point where maybe when I'm 78, I won't feel that way. I'm only 11 years away from that. I don't know. But I just think it's simply a matter of, maybe four years younger. Do you feel like you see the same kinds of issues in terms of Trump's age and memory playing a factor? A little bit, as far as memory. I remember the thing with, what was it, Nancy, who was he mixing up with Nancy Pelosi? Nikki Haley. Nikki Haley. Okay, yeah. And I can see, like, where maybe you would do it one time, but he kept doing it over and over. So it wasn't like he just mixed it up. If I would call you Jim instead of John, if I kept calling you Jim over and over and over again, it would be an issue. But if I slipped and just did it once, it's probably just a little blip. He kept doing it over and over and over again. So I do think that was a little bit of an issue.

over and over and over again. So I do think that was a little bit of an issue. With Donald Trump, as far as cerebral issues, I think his are more selective memory and ethics and morals and knowing right from wrong as opposed to simply, you know, remembering what's to remember. And I'm sure regardless of what your president, the amount of stuff that, you know, what you have to remember is so much more than any of us have to think about. When you mentioned the age concerns, have you noticed a progressive change in your perception of his mental state, his ability from the start of his term to now? Or has this been a concern of yours dating back to when he ran in 2020? No, it wasn't really a concern in 2020. I do think, I mean, let's face it, this is a hard job. And you see the impact on all of the precedents, graying hair. And I just think the pressure of this job ages someone. And so I've seen a loss of capacity, I believe,

and I'm primarily concerned about, okay, what's that going to look like as he moves toward his mid-80s and he has one of the most difficult jobs, if not the most difficult job in the world? My trust factor is not very high, and I'm not really excited about his vice president becoming the president of the United States. I don't think she'd win in an open election process, even among Democrats, and certainly not Democrats or Republicans. So that's not a good situation from my perspective. situation from my perspective. Right. Does the prospect of Kamala Harris becoming president, if Biden were to win a second term, weigh on your decision whether or not to vote for him this year? Yes. Yes, it does. You know, where I'm, and I think I've said this before, I'm

kind of my primary position is I don't want to be forced into affirming any candidate because it's my only choice. And I'm going to resist that. And I will vote for Biden only as a vote against Trump. It certainly wouldn't be a vote for Biden, and even less so would it be a vote for Kamala Harris. So again, we're sitting here on April 10th having this discussion. We're on the heels of a somewhat favorable jobs report. And at the same time, we're also looking at high prices for groceries and basic goods that haven't seemed to fall as inflation has persisted. Just because those macroeconomic signals can be somewhat mixed and hard to parse. Just want to hear a little bit from your anecdotal perspective. For your personal economics, how do you feel the economy is going for Claire? Yeah, I would say not great i'm

yeah well i mean groceries are expensive so i feel like that's a major part of what people look at when obviously it is important on a national scale how many people are employed and i think those metrics should factor into how we think about the economy generally. But I think we should also acknowledge that on an individual level, if most people are employed, what they're worried about is, can I make rent? Can I buy basic items? And when they can't, they're going to feel negatively about the economy, And when they can't, they're going to feel negatively about the economy, regardless of these big national statistics about, you know, whether or not people are employed. So it's difficult. I think those should hold a lot of weight.

But I also think that a lot of individuals are not wrong for feeling that the economy is in a negative place because things are expensive and they can't afford them. And it's a difficult balance, but I think that when people feel poorly about the economy, that there should be some acknowledgement that prices are high. We want to do something about that to make your lives better. And hey, also, in some ways, the economy is doing well. Doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means there are areas for improvement. And I think that that would go a long way with Americans to say, hey, I understand that a lot of you are feeling hurt by the cost of things. And that's something that we'd like to address. Is there anything that you're not seeing from the Biden administration currently that you would like to see ramped up?

I do think economy as the way it stands right now, it's at a very, you know, you could say like a sensitive juncture, because there was sort of an expectation that the inflation is going to be cooling down, but it came in a little hot a couple weeks back or one week back and i think that's really troubling because if that inflation number keeps going up which you know and if you think about it in this way like if there is a student loan cancellation and there's a certain amount of buying power people instantly have because of that right and i know it's not passed yet and things haven't moved uh along as people would have liked but at the end of the day that kind of tells uh people psychologically speaking like you can keep spending right and i think people really need to stop spending money they don't have and i think that's so where i think he could do a lot more uh in terms of like

setting a precedent in some in the sense that talk about like okay you know yeah the stock market is doing great but at the same time the inflation is still you know pretty high and it should be it shouldn't be that high and i think that's where he could do a lot more there are other things that i can think of like the federal minimum wage is something that he can talk about a little bit and yeah those are the couple things that come can think of, like the federal minimum wage is something that he can talk about a little bit. And yeah, those are the couple of things that come to mind right now. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond

Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older,

and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCcellvax.ca. Is there anything specific that the Biden administration is taking a stand on that is going against some of your Christian values that you've talked about that would prevent you from voting for him? that would prevent you from voting for him? Off the top of my head, and I hope I'm not mistaken in thinking this is the case, but I do remember the Equality Act back in,

what was it? It was early on, I think, the Equality Act. And, you know, in the non-discrimination stuff, including gender identity as part of that. I can't remember specifically that was a a if that was a biden thing i i want to say if i'm remembering right that this was pushed by the administration and has been um now everybody has to consider that as you know as a protected class or whatever from discrimination uh i take i take issue with that and the reason for it is because it's suppose you know i'm hiring somebody into

my faith-based business and part of our requirements is a commitment to christ and whoever it is that's doing that is not have that commitment to Christ, according to what the Bible says, then that's a disqualifier. And the same thing goes for churches. Churches hire based on that. You know, you adhere to our faith commitment here in all of these key points. If I am legally supposed to overlook that aspect that talks about gender identity, and if I'm going to be punished because I don't hire somebody on that basis, and not so much it's the basis in and of itself, it's this person does not have this profession of faith that we're looking for, and if that is the cause, if the gender identity is the cause of that lacking professional faith, if I get punished for that, well, I guess I'll see you in jail. I mean, I don't know what to say to that.

I'm not compromised. I can't because I'm not going to affirm that in anybody because it goes back to the creation. What does the Bible teach? He created the male and female. Uh, no, a lot of people think gender is a spectrum, but in God's word, it's not a spectrum. And so I have to hold to male and female and can't affirm anything else and pushing the equality act and those ties that are affecting, uh, how to talk to somebody, how to relate to somebody in those ways,

that's a major consideration that I have to speak out against. I see. So you're seeing this as a direct impact onto you and your hiring practices? I mean, is it hypothetical or have you had any actual instances, whether it's with you or in your community? For me personally, it's hypothetical. We have a small family operation. We don't plan to hire outside of family at this time. So that one's pretty straightforward. But I have friends up, say, in the Idaho area who have been dealt with very harshly for their stance on that very issue and the inability to concede someone's inner identity. And, I mean, businesses have been shut down because of a broad community strike against them because of things like that. And, you know, different headlines here and there make the news about, you know, I'm not going to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. I'm not going to support a gay couple in this. I'm not going to do anything like that. support a gay couple in this. I'm not going to do anything like that. And also in the realm of gender identity, I mean, that's a huge thing with Matt Walsh was a woman, you know, so it's out there. Not seeing it so much in my little circle, not really seeing any practical life examples of

that. But in my mind, it's only a matter of time. It's only a matter of time before it does start happening. What is happening here in seed forum will eventually grow unless someone does anything about it. So it's, yeah, it may not happen today, tomorrow, next year, whatever, but it's something my kids are going to have to deal with, I see. OFIC. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Biden has also had his share of controversies regarding foreign policy. Currently, there's wars going on between Israel and Gaza, Russia and Ukraine, and there's civil unrest in Haiti. All that is going on while we're still dealing with an immigration issue on our own southern border. What are your thoughts on President Biden's administration

regarding these areas of foreign policy? on President Biden's administration regarding these areas of foreign policy? The war in Ukraine, I think it's been too little too late. I think if he had kind of taken the bull by the horns and not just reacted to Putin, everything Putin said, but just got in there and was proactive, gave them a lot more money in the beginning and a lot more support in the beginning, maybe this would have been over by now. Maybe it would, I don't know. But that's just kind of what I think. As far as Gaza and Israel, you know, I think that's very difficult. That is a very fine line. But now he did say with israel uh that and correct me if i'm wrong but there was going i mean the line in the sand was going to be if israel invaded uh rafa is that

correct that was a couple weeks ago and um this have they or haven't they i don't think they have have they they've been concentrated they were doing some hospital somewhere, and forgive me, but it's just, sometimes there's so much going on, and there's only so much that I will pay attention to, because it just, it's a little much for me. Absolutely, there's, yeah, there's multiple things going on in multiple places to have the bandwidth to actually know at any given point in time, I think, honestly, is very challenging. People are going to know. Well, they're saying it, but they're not really going to do it. As far as Haiti, I am not as up on that as I am on the other things of money is that you need to take care of those that need help. It's just a moral and ethical responsibility. It's no different than I think as an individual. To those who much is given, much is expected.

who much is given you know much is expected and um it you know you have you have an obligation to share um to share your wealth so i but but as far as what to do there i'm really not sure and i haven't really heard much from the news sources i follow i have not heard much about hating it's kind of it seems like it's kind of fallen off, probably because Trump has taken over the airwaves over the last couple weeks. What are your thoughts on the current events around the southern border and our stance on immigration, or at least the Biden administration's stance on immigration? Well, I will say that Biden has basically done what Trump did, what Obama did, what everybody else. There have been laws in place all along, and nobody follows them. So, in that respect, Biden isn't any worse than anybody else. And everybody just seems to be kicking the can down the road. I mean, something has to be done. I mean, these poor people are, I think we just can't even imagine what life must be like that you're willing to walk all the way from the end of Central America through there, up all the way through Mexico,

to get into this country, knowing what you're going to face when you get here, that you could be in the streets, that you could be in prison or whatever. I think we need to do something, A, to turn them back, but also, B, to somehow get more resources for them as far as whether more judges are doing things so that the processing turnaround is a lot faster for these people. I also think, too, if we could get something to, you know, when they come in, whether it's a social security card or something, to at least get them in the system, so at least they can get a job. I mean, we've got a lot of jobs in this country that need to be filled, that I'm sure that these, I mean, these people are all not just landscapers or construction workers.

I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of people with professional degrees that we could use. I mean, to get through this backlog faster, we can use a lot of these people. And, you know, we put them to work, and then, you know, we're getting more taxes into the system. It's helping out the economy, and it's getting them off the streets and you know if we can do something a social security card or something you know we've got them in the system we can kind of track them you know whatever wages they have we can take you know the taxes everything something has got to be done and um you know and it's funny because you look at what entangled

today about the thing with homelessness in the Supreme Court. Well, half of this issue is because the borders haven't been managed. And I'm sure a lot of these homeless people are immigrants that have no place to go. They've been shipped here or shipped there. And what are they going to do? ship there and what are they going to do so i i don't think um that has been managed well but and i know i i say i'm a republican but i i mean i'm also very you know kind of middle of the ground you know there there was a plan in place to take care of this and the republicans didn't like it and they had to start all over again, and now it's not in his bill. So the Republicans only have themselves to blame as far as I'm concerned. So that part I can't lay on Joe Biden.

A lot of it I do, but this part right now, you can't blame him for that. You said you're two hours away from the border, so that one seems to be a pretty big issue. Can you go into that? Do you think that the current administration is mishandling that? Or what would you like to see be done at the southern border? Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. The southern border issue definitely affects us here in the Phoenix area. And even in the far north Phoenixoenix areas i know uh one person in particular who has friends who have who he's lost to uh illegal criminal activity like illegals committing criminal activity so there's a lot going on here stateside in terms of the border

i if i can have it my way uh the way that I would deal with that, I don't know if I have a written in stone solution with all those particulars, but the philosophy that I would say that I would use, no surprise here, I would go back to libel. And I think there's a lot of principles that we have in the old testament specifically about respecting the boundary markers of your neighbor and to there were consequences for anybody who wants to impede upon someone else's property and land so i would say yeah i gotta get a stricter border policy you gotta you know there's there needs to be a tightening up there. And I'm very critical of the administration, current administration, for not taking a tougher stance. But I do believe that there is biblical warrant to say we need to firmly set the boundary marker.

You know, in Trump's case, his solution was a wall. Cool. Okay. Still mishandled, by the way, in my opinion. But I do think there needs to be a philosophy that respects the whole sum of the law of God, which is to love God and love neighbor. That's the heart of the law. That's Jesus' teaching on the law is you fulfill these two commandments, you fulfill the law. And so, what I think that looks like demonstrated in Old Testament history is your neighbor's got a boundary marker, you respect it. You don't move it, you don't cross it, you don't impede on your neighbor's land and property. I do think that needs to be established. But on the other hand,

too, people who want to take refuge in our country, Welcome them. Love on them. Treat them with respect and dignity and provide. And I personally think this is where the church, broadly speaking, has really failed. And I'm very critical of the broadly evangelical community for not stepping up to the plate. Because this is really our bread and butter. We're supposed to love people. And that includes cross-cultural love and welcoming people. But it needs to be in due process. And it has to have order and structure to it. In order to protect our people and in order to protect the others as well, the outsiders. Embrace them warmly and do so in a very orderly fashion.

And do so in a way that honors God and honors neighbor because God cares for those people as much as he cares for the people inside the walls. We have no business just letting everybody in loosely with all this chaos. We have no business kicking everybody to the curb and just worrying about ourselves. Neither side, I think, has really done a great job. Biden has had controversies with his handling of Israel, Ukraine, and now Haiti. And of course, with immigration on the southern border, as he also said. What are your thoughts about the Biden administration's stances in any of those areas? If there's one that you care more about or one that you have more of a disagreement on, we'd love to hear it.

Sure. I would say I'm less informed about what we are or are not doing in Haiti, although I'm trying to keep an eye on it. I would say in Ukraine, I actually was happy in the beginning to see the way that President Biden immediately was able to gather allies and address the situation. But I would say at this point, so many people have died in this war that it would be appropriate for us to try or ask someone, another country that is more neutral, to try and step in and broker peace in that situation.

And I think in a lot of ways, America has been encouraging the war more and preventing a peace process. There have been peace talks that have popped up and kind of gone away. And I would like to see us promoting that more. like to see us promoting that more. And I think similarly in Israel and Palestine, I think we could be in a position to help create peace there, even though it's a very complicated situation. And I've been pretty disappointed with his response on Israel and Palestine because I feel like it's kind of flipped a bit. I feel like initially it was complete support for Israel and now he's kind of saying, oh, they're going too far. And I think that's fine to change your position and draw a line at some point. But we're also like continuing

to fund both Ukraine, or I mean, both Palestine aid and Israel's war against Palestine, which to me, it seems like we should take a a more consistent position there and i also think that vice president harris has spoken about creating peace and in support of palestine while biden was saying we support israel so i feel like again the communication there has been lacking a lot in that front and i think it would be better if there was just clarity of like, this is the position that we're going to take regardless of whether or not people like it. And I do feel like some of the switch

to supporting Palestine more in recent times might also be due to Biden starting to lose the youth vote due to his stance on Israel and Palestine. And I would rather see him clearly articulate his position and stick to it than feel like, I don't know if he's caving because of an upcoming election. I don't know if he's genuinely drawn a line in the sand. I don't know what that line is. So I'd like to see some clarity there. Let me dive a little deeper on some of the foreign policy issues. What would you like to see as the response from the Biden administration as far as what's happening

between Israel and Gaza right now? So from the administration, I would like to see a push for a ceasefire. And from on the other side, I would like to see the administration push for the release of hostages, right? Because that's the key issue here, the release of hostages and ceasefire. And I think ceasefire, just the way the chain of events would go, I would think ceasefire would come first. So that's the push, the ceasefire. And then it would be make sure, get other countries involved, because I understand the U.S. administration is not going to deal directly with Hamas, right? So they'll have to talk to other countries that have those diplomatic ties with Hamas to make sure that the hostages are released. That's taken place once they have a deal on the table. I think then we can talk about a lot of other issues, of course, that have risen as a result of Hamas doing what it did on October 7th. So I think the first course of action would be to push for a ceasefire and then have Hamas release all the hostages. Moving to Ukraine, we recently just passed a bill.

I think it's going to Biden's desk shortly. We're still waiting on the Senate, but a $95 billion bill, I think $60 billion of it or so is going to Ukraine for aid. It was a bit surprising to find out that there were missile systems that were going to Ukraine for aid. It was a bit surprising to find out that there were missile systems that were going to Ukraine after Biden had kind of specifically said he wasn't going to do that. Do you think these choices by Biden and his administration are a step in the right direction, or do you think that we are overstepping our bounds? I think it was like a given. I'm pretty, I'm sure there were a lot of concessions made but at the end of the day like we all knew that there will be some aid military aid going to Ukraine

Israel and there was of course there was a little bit of money that was also sent or you know earmarked for chip manufacturing I believe and then of course there was this you know tiktok band right uh not a band but like a divestiture right so so there's a lot of things i mean it seemed like you know it seems like a joke uh if you look at it because in one week so much happened nothing was happening before so things when things move fast they move fast right so i know i i feel like what he has been doing a lot of things in terms of, for example, I know you asked about Ukraine, but that's something that he backtracked on. But then at the same time, there was this issue about the student loans, right?

So the student loans is a campaign promise that he made. And he was, of course, the Supreme Court said, no, you can't do that. And the Supreme Court said, no, you can't do that. And then now he figured out a way to somehow make sure that it passes or it goes through or something else he could do to keep that campaign promise. So I think he, like, you know, where he can't, like, he will try to do as much as possible. But, you know, he'll lose little battles here and there to eventually, like, win the war. But I think that's his kind of philosophy. I think his deal-making is quite good, the way he makes deals, and he's always been known for that.

Moving on to immigration concerns and thinking about foreign policy more broadly, maybe we can just run through a few of the major foreign policy issues that have, you know, dominated under Biden's presidency, Israel and Ukraine, I think, being the foremost ones. Those are the recent ones. I mean, his withdrawal from Afghanistan was a disaster from my perspective. And we tend to forget the past, and now we're dwelling on Israel. I think he's, with respect to Israel, he's in a difficult situation. And I think he's walking a careful line where he is both supporting Israel, but he is trying to give a voice for humanitarian concerns. And personally, I think that's the right stance to take. So I haven't had any major objections. association with a party that where the center of the objections come from counts against him but he's trying in this case to be the moderate um democrat that kind of ran on i i wish they hadn't the last vote um in the united nations security council where the United States didn't vote, but allowed the sanction to go through. I understand it's kind of a pressure to get Israel to do what they can. That would not have

been my call. But I don't fault Biden for his stance on Israelrael yet i think he's he's sticking with israel um russia and ukraine i think i'm more with him on this than i am with what appears to be the posture that trump is taking i mean i i think that um we have a commitment commitment that we need to follow through on. I think money invested here is potentially money saved down the road if a war were to break out with Russia. I don't think Putin is a man who can be trusted in the world scene. I think NATO's discomfort with him is appropriate. discomfort with him is appropriate. Although Trump's posturing, and he's such a person who takes a posture. I'm never sure exactly what he means. But his attempt to get Nader to take more responsibility, his verbiage probably would have had that effect. And Biden being more diplomatic just doesn't do that. And that's both his strength, but perhaps sometimes in certain circumstances, it might be a weakness, but I would still favor that over dangerous footage. So I don't have much, and Haiti is just an impossible situation.

I mean, I have students in my classes from Haiti, immigrants who are pastors in the Boston area, and they've educated me on their experience. And they hold the United States in large part responsible for the current situation and opened my eyes to the degree to which that is true. So I don't know what America can do to keep that country from falling apart without overreaching and reproducing errors of the past. I think that's beyond the wisdom of any president, quite frankly. And so I don't fault Biden for any actions or lack of actions he's taken. Convince you, one, that the United States did play a major role in getting Haiti to the point it is today? And if that's the case, do you think that we should't participate in the future problems? Sure, I think the political will to follow through and be a help? I would have to, of course, I'm not going to, I'm not in the decision-making process, but I don't, this is where I'd rather have Nikki Haley, quite frankly, than either of the two, because I think she just had more expertise. But between the two, hopefully Trump, hopefully both of them will depend on good advisors and they will supply a

will to do good over the long term. But that's the very thing I doubt. That we are we're in it for our advantage. And when that's the case, we will do things that hurt others. If you had to do another gut check right now, state of the Claire poll, where are you leaning currently and how certain would you say you are?

Honestly, I'm disappointed to say this, but I feel like I'm pretty certain I would vote for none of the above. I would probably go for some alternative candidate that I would write in or something because it's just the way I see it you have a choice between someone who may not make it through another term someone who rejected the results of an election in which there has been no fraud found and failed to protect our own congress people during a riot gone wrong however you want to see that, on January 6th. Or someone who wants to eliminate basically all of our government institutions, which I think that there is a lot of valid mistrust of those things, but I also think were something like COVID to happen again,

having someone like RFK in office who doesn't want a National Institute of Health, that would be a problem. a National Institute of Health, that would be a problem. So I think all of them are really deeply problematic and not something I would want to say that I can support. And so to that end, it's kind of like, I wish it were otherwise, but I think I would rather kind of signal to whatever establishment is listening that we need to change the way our voting systems work in order to get better candidates rather than do the lesser of three evils again and again. If you had to say today which way you're leaning, where would you say you're at? To be very honest, if Biden can resolve this issue in the Middle East, that would be definitely a vote for him, for me.

That would, of course, it also depends on how he solves it. But I think at this point, things are so bad that even if he takes a stance as to like, we need to, like I said, ceasefire, release of hostages, that's like the bare minimum right now. I think if he does that, I'll definitely lean towards him. Because there's a part of me that thinks that if Trump were to be elected, like I think he would solve this in the first hundred days. And I don't know how he will solve it. But like he is the kind of person who is capable of solving this. And it's just a gut feeling here. Nothing logical about that, but yeah, just a gut feeling. But yes, definitely if he ends up solving this issue, that would be a

definitely vote for him. If you had to say which way you're leaning, how are you leaning right now? And the traditional Republican, not like a Freedom Caucus Republican, but the traditional Republicans and moderates spending less government. Even though that's what I've always been, I'm finding myself more and more of what Biden does or says. It's like I'm agreeing with it. And I've often toyed with, should I change my affiliation? I change my affiliation. If you could say where you're leaning one direction or another right now for your vote for president, what would you say at this moment?

Right now, my vote is a refusal to vote for either one. And because both are a wrong choice from my perspective. That is it for episode three of The Undecideds. Thank you for listening. And don't forget, if you are enjoying this podcast, to give us a five-star rating anywhere you rate podcasts,

and be sure to share it with some friends. We'll see you guys in a few weeks for episode four. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media production. This episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by John Long. Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokova, Will Kabik, John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Long. For more content from Tangle Media, please go to our website at retangle.com. Thanks for watching! Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu,

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