Tangle - The Undecideds - Episode 5 - The First Presidential Debate

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

On Thursday June 27th, 2024, President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump took the stage in the first of two planned televised debates. The debate, which took place in Atlanta and was hosted by CNN, was unique in a few ways. The Commission on Presidential Debates, which has organized debates for nearly 40 years, was excluded after both Trump and Biden expressed their dissatisfaction over the organization’s handling of previous debates. CNN had its own debate format that both candidates agreed to. There was no audience, no opening remarks, microphones were cut off after each candidate's allotted time was used, no pre-written notes, and no props or contact with campaign staff during the debate. This also marked the first time two U.S. Presidents have debated each other for the chance to reclaim the White House. What ultimately transpired in this debate was 90 minutes of lies, insults, incoherent answers and minimal substance. President Biden appeared to be losing his voice, which his campaign attributed to “battling a cold”. He struggled with completing his thoughts and communicating his positions. The fallout left the Democratic Party in turmoil, with some calling on Biden to step down. Former President Trump repeatedly misrepresented much of his record and told numerous falsehoods on many topics including the economy, immigration and January 6th.We asked our undecided voters about their thoughts on the debate, their impressions of Biden and Trump, what they would've liked to hear discussed, and if this debate impacted their choice. The election is now 110 days away. You can⁠⁠⁠ subscribe to Tangle by clicking here⁠⁠⁠ or drop something⁠⁠⁠ in our tip jar by clicking here.⁠⁠⁠The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th.

Whether renting, renewing a mortgage, or considering buying a home, everybody has housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances, visit Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web,

his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From Tangle Media and founder, Isaac Saul. And executive producer, John Long. This is The Undecideds. On Thursday, June 27th, 2024, President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump took the stage in the first of two planned televised debates. The debate, which took place in Atlanta and was hosted by CNN, was unique in a few ways. The Commission on Presidential Debates, which has organized them for nearly 40 years, was excluded after both Trump

and Biden expressed their dissatisfaction over the organization's handling of previous debates. expressed their dissatisfaction over the organization's handling of previous debates. CNN had its own debate format that both candidates agreed to. There was no audience, no opening remarks. Microphones were cut off after each candidate's allotted time was used. There were no pre-written notes and no props or contact with campaign staff during the debate. This also marked the first time two U.S. presidents have debated each other for the chance to reclaim the White House. What ultimately transpired in this debate was 90 minutes of lies, insults, incoherent answers, and minimal substance. President Biden appeared to be

losing his voice, which his campaign attributed to battling a cold. He struggled with completing his thoughts and communicating his positions. The fallout left the Democratic Party in turmoil, with some calling on Biden to step down. Former President Trump repeatedly misrepresented much of his record and told numerous falsehoods on many topics, including the economy, immigration, and January 6th. We asked our undecided voters about their thoughts on the debate, their impressions of Biden and Trump, what they would have liked to hear discussed, and if this debate impacted their choice. The election is now 110 days away. Okay, this is Ari with Tango, and I'm here again with Claire. How are we doing, Claire?

Doing well. How are you? Pretty good. The thing that we want to talk about today, since we're talking about the presidential race together, is the debate from last Thursday. So did you watch the debate? And if so, where did you watch it? And what was your experience like? I did watch it. I was in Kenosha, Wisconsin with what might have been the biggest watch party in the country. There were over 200 Republicans and Democrats in one room watching it together at this convention I was at. So it was definitely a unique experience. There was a lot of laughter from people on both sides and a lot of, I think, both hope and despair in the room at the same time

because a lot of people, regardless of which side they were on, didn hope and despair in the room at the same time, because a lot of people, regardless of which side they were on, didn't like either of the candidates and were like, I think we deserve better and we can do better than this. And we're very energized to help do better in a lot of ways. So that was very good to see. But yeah, regardless of whether people were strong Republicans or Democrats, I think there were a lot of the same feelings in the room of just like, oh, God, these are options, especially people that like hadn't really been following the news or hadn't seen Biden speak in a while. I do know there was one woman who spoke who was a Democrat and was like, I was going to vote for Biden, but seeing him speak might have just changed my vote. So it's interesting to see that kind of reaction from some people. So can you tell me more about the group that you were watching with? Yeah, I was at the Braver Angels Convention, which is a grassroots organization primarily run by volunteers that is

always half Democrat, half Republican. And it's focused on depolarizing and unifying the country, trying to take the contempt out of politics in a lot of ways. Pretty understandable from us here. Would you say that there was an impression overall in the room one way or another after the debate? You said there was some despondence on both sides, but I'm wondering if you sensed it leaning in one direction or the other. Um, yeah, I think there was, um, probably a lean towards a little bit of despondency, like maybe like 60, 40 of people that were just like, these are our options for the leadership of our nation, like for the next four years. And like like how do we keep doing this you know like um I think there's there's not a lot of hope because you're looking into the future and being like

I don't know what's gonna happen five years from now but I know the next four years are not gonna be enjoyable for any of us because we've seen what both these guys have done and if you don't like either of them in most presidential years there's at least an option that hasn't been in presidential office before. And you can kind of look forward to, oh, maybe they'll do something different. But this time it's like more of the same. So I think people were like definitely not excited about that. All right, Phil, welcome back. I have some prepared questions, but honestly, I kind of wanted to just get your immediate reaction to the debate. I assume you watched.

Of course. And I thought I would just kind of give you the floor to share your initial reactions, what you were thinking last night, if your thoughts have evolved this morning or in the time since the debate, and just general takeaways before we get into some of the nitty-gritty. Well, it was as bad as I feared it might be, perhaps a little bit worse. I mean, Trump did not win the debate. Biden lost it. And the one big takeaway, of course, which you're reading in all of the responses, is that the thing he needed to do, which was to convince the public that he had the stamina and the mental capacity to serve as president for the next four years, he utterly failed at doing. to serve as president for the next four years, he utterly failed at doing. Trump was typical Trump. He was full of bravado, of exaggeration, of denials, but confidently so. I mean, the story he tells is pretty consistent. When I was president, everything was great. In fact, it was probably the best it's ever been. And then Joe Biden comes along, destroys everything, and now things are as bad as they could possibly be. And so elect me so I can make America great again. There will be no wars, there will be no inflation, there will be no evidence-based arguments to demonstrate to people like me that Trump had any idea of how he's going to accomplish that.

So the problem I've always had with Trump, besides his character, his lack of intelligent argumentation, his incredible exaggerations, and his bombastic bravado. They were on full display, but nevertheless, he decisively won the debate, not because he was a good debater or he said anything that was oppressive, but poor Joe just embarrassed himself in front of the whole population, and I don't think he can recover. Okay, this is Magdalena from Tangle interviewing Brian from Arizona, where it's a sweltering 114 degree day today. Yes. Are you surviving? I consider this my sanctification here i am i am being sweated of all of my impurities you and the rest of the u.s i guess we're going to be talking about the debate

um first of all did you watch the debate and if so where did you watch it i? And if so, where did you watch it? I did. I watched it. It was after the fact. So I watched the recording and it was on my commute. So I've got 35 minutes each way. So got to hear good chunks and digest along the way and in between. So boy, what a time, what a time we live in with how everything went on that day. What was your overall impression? I'm not surprised, I should say. I'm really not surprised. And I really think it gives credence to where we are as people. And the whole, you know, what I've been saying from the very beginning about trying to analyze everything

from the top down. And in my opinion, the debate is really where everything comes to light, all the other side issues and stuff and reporting this and all of the day-to-day in the weeds kind of stuff. The debate is where you see what's behind all of that, in my opinion, and where you really get to see the worldviews on display. And so it was very important that I got to watch this one. And I think it just went about as expected as I would have imagined. There wasn't a whole lot of clarity on the main issues other than he's right or he's wrong, I'm right. You know, that's the gist of what I got. It was almost like, you know, who can puff their chest out more?

And the other guy's like, no, I can't. No, I can't. He's lying. I can't. I've got the bigger chest, you know. Zahid, thank you so much for joining us again today. Glad to be here. So, the big topic for today is the presidential debate that just took place. First question, did you get a chance to watch it?

And if so, where did you watch it? How did it go? Were you with friends, family? So, I watched it by myself on my phone. So, it was just me and my wife is not interested in these things. It's not something that I would watch with her. So what was your impression of Biden's performance in the debate? And then the follow up will be what was your impression of Trump's performance? Biden's performance, I really don't think I was expecting anything better than what I saw. I was expecting him to, you know, because we have all seen him,

you know, freeze at times and going through a process where he is not able to complete a sentence in a coherent way. So I was sort of expecting that, but given it was a debate, I felt that maybe he might have prepared himself for those things or his team might have prepared him better, but it didn't seem like that really happened. And yeah, so it was a little surprising to see him the way he responded to questions as well as, you know, his reaction timing and as well as how he was having a hard time, you know, completing a sentence at times. And how about Trump's performance? completing a sentence at times. And how about Trump's performance? So Trump, I mean, you could, I mean, I expected him to pounce at Biden over almost everything. He was his usual self. I was expecting maybe a little bit of like, you know, I would say calmness. But I think I can't remember

what happened. But I think very early on, Biden said something that I felt like triggered him pretty badly. And since that instance, I think I felt that he became extremely aggressive. And yeah, he was his usual self. Diana, thank you so much for joining us again. Thank you for having me. So, quite a night that happened last night. Oh, my. Did you get a chance to watch the debate? Yes. If so, okay, great.

So, where did you watch it? Like, did you watch it with anybody? Well, I was really tired yesterday. So, actually, we watched part of it in the living room, we watched part of it in bed, and then we were just so tired, we turned it off, and I got up at quarter of five this morning and watched the rest of it because I wanted to see it before I put the news or put any commentary or anything on. So, kind of watched it, and watched it with my husband. Got it. Okay. All right. So, what was your impression of Biden's performance? We'll start with that, and then we'll go to your impression of Trump's performance.

And it was just, I can't believe that this poor man, what they are putting him through or what he's putting himself through. I mean, it's obvious that he should, he either shouldn't have run or he should have resigned a long time ago. And it was almost embarrassing to watch. And I really felt bad for him because I know now they're talking about, you know, pretty seriously about possibly invoking the 25th Amendment and maybe coming up with another candidate. And, you know, regardless of what you think of him, I mean, he's been in public service for a long time and nobody wants to go out. Like, you know, everybody wants to go out the way, you know, on a high note. And if this is the way he goes, it's going to be sad for the country, but it's also going to be very sad for him. And I do feel bad for him for that. I think he did the best he could, and unfortunately, this was the best he could do.

So, you know, he did get in a zinger here and there, but basically he was pretty incoherent and tended to ramble and go off topic. He was hard to understand. His voice was so quiet, and he tended to mumble some. The other thing, I watched it on NBC, and at the end of it, when they were doing the commentary from the room, so I don't know if this was on other channels or not, but Joe Biden walked up to him to get him off the podium. And he was just standing there, and she literally walked up to him and put her arms on him the way I did with my 93-year-old mother to help her get down a curb. And she continued to hold on to him like that as he walked. And it was just, it was very sad to see. And he just, he shouldn't be doing this job. It's

just, it's too much for him. At this point, he should be able to just, you know, go back to Delaware, play with his dogs, enjoy his grandchildren, and enjoy what time he has left. And comparatively, what did you think of Trump's performance? Well, Trump was Trump. I mean, comparatively, obviously, he was much more energetic. He was much more physical. I was surprised at how restrained he was for Trump. I was rather surprised at that. But then again, it was all the, you know, we did the best had sex with a porn star while his wife was pregnant. And you could see his lip kind of curled under and he said, I never had sex with her. And it was just, it was just, I just thought that was like downright funny. I mean, not the

fact that, you know, you're still married. And quite frankly, I don't think it matters whether your wife is pregnant or not, you shouldn't be doing this. But it was just, it was almost like a petulant child for a second. It was just lie after lie after lie. I heard, my husband said he heard one thing this morning, that fact checkers, they counted 30 different lies. And I was kind of surprised that 30 was the number they came up with. I thought it would have been a lot more. 30 was the number they came up with. I thought it would have been a lot more.

But basically, I think the whole debate was, it wasn't a debate, it was a debacle. What were your impressions of both President Biden and former President Trump? I wasn't particularly surprised by anything that came out during the debate. I think it went pretty much as expected. Although Biden, I feel like had a particularly bad moment when I think he was asked about abortion and he started rambling about someone that was killed by an illegal immigrant and no one could really follow it. So I think Trump did get some good kind of jabs in there, but he also sounded insane at a lot of points, as he tends to do. So I don't think I was particularly shocked by anything during the debate. I was really shocked, though, by the response after and the Democrats basically having a meltdown and saying Biden should drop out. I think four editorial boards at this point in time, including The New York Times, have called for Biden to step out of the race. And that was really shocking to me. I was like, have you not been paying attention in the last several months? Isn't it a bit late to be asking

for this? So yeah, it was interesting to me to look at what I thought was like, he didn't look great. But I was like, this has been happening over the last several months that videos have been coming out. Some of them a little misleading and faked and cropped certain ways, but some of them authentic. And so I'm like, this seems like a natural progression of what we've been seeing. Um, but clearly some people on the Democrat side didn't see it as a natural progression and were quite shocked by how bad that he looked. So we'll see what happens there. But I would say that was kind of the most interesting thing to come out of the debate for me.

And so that's your reaction to reactions for the debate. But for your personal reflection on the night, did your impressions of either candidate change? And were there moments in the debate that you felt your opinion of either candidate moving at all? I don't really think so. I don't think they said anything unexpected. I was like, yeah, pretty standard positions of, you know, what I understand them to have. They didn't say anything that was terribly shocking to me that would change my opinion either positively or negatively for either of them. So it's fair to say that this debate is not impacting your voting decision? Yeah, I would say that's accurate. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. sugar when you're finished. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it

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15th. Some commentary before the debate questioned whether we would learn any new information about these candidates that we didn't already know. We asked our voters if this debate helped them gain any clarity on their concerns and what they might have wanted the candidates to discuss. Was there anything going into the debate issue-wise that you were hoping to hear about and did they address any of those issues? I'd love to hear what you're wanting to hear. Sure, yeah. There was nothing going into the debate that I was really hoping to hear, just because my expectations were low. But if my expectations were high, and I really wanted to hear something addressed, it would be at the very, very foundational level of, is there truth? Essentially, is there truth? And can we get there? Now, of course, that leaves the question,

well, was I hoping for a philosophical debate? No. But I think if there was a lineup of questions that really got to the bottom of displaying whether or not they believe there's actually truth, that isn't just pure subjective, here's my truth, that's objective, I would have loved to seen that. And I think there could have been questions that have been rearranged, I guess, for example, on the abortion issue, rather than are you going to oppose free access to abortions or access to abortions in whatever the ways they had described it? I can't remember off the top of my head precisely what they said, but on the abortion issue, a good question that I would have loved to have answered is,

is abortion morally right in the first place? And then go on to, okay, turn, you know, pre-six weeks, what about then? What about rape, incest, murder? They did address that aspect, rape, incest, murder? They did address that aspect rape, incest, murder as the exceptions. But the question that I want to hear beforehand is, is it before, you know, rape, incest, murder, is the taking of what is inside the womb considered morally acceptable or not? You know, should we, is it morally acceptable to allow foreigners to come into the country? If so, in what ways, how, you know, get those aside rather than assuming it from the

outside and then just debating the particulars and the weeds of the policies we need to enforce and stuff like that. I think that would have clarified at least for me, like it would have solidified where I'm at, personally, what I would have liked to have connected with. I didn't really connect with everything just because it's already down in the weeds and the worldview is already assumed. That's one of the reasons why I still think we have two terrible candidates and our nation under judgment is because that worldview is assumed and is going unquestioned. If that worldview at that fundamental level starts to be questioned, then I think it would be a totally different picture, but we'd have to progress as a people

all together in much different ways, I feel like, before we'd even be able to start considering those foundational questions. So nothing in particular I really was hoping to hear, just because my expectations were low. But if I went in with full expectations, it would have been at the worldview level questions. That's what I really would have wanted to hear about more. Going into the debate, were there any issues that you were kind of hoping to hear the candidates, you know, expound on or explain their position more in detail? Not really. But like, you know, if I'm being like super honest here, I was not going into this

debate thinking that I would hear something different from either one of them because I knew what this would look like or had a feeling about how this would turn out. And I think it was worse than what I had expected. So yes, what I would have wanted them to talk about is the future. I think that's been missing from the debates, at least based on what you hear in the media, what the Democratic Party is talking about, what the Republican Party is talking about, the future that is the US being what the Republican Party is talking about, the future that is like, you know,

the U.S. being at the forefront of technology, all those things that would make America the superpower it is or maintain its status. I think that's something that I've been wanting them to address, to talk about, to talk about what their vision is from like 2030, 2040, 2050. I really don't think that's happening with either of the parties. So that's what something that I was hoping that they would talk about, maybe talk about something new that we haven't heard before. But I think it was, yeah, it was some, it turned out to be completely something different. Do you think the other candidate explained their vision for the future of America? Not really. Not really.

What Trump did, I feel, make sure that he got this point across is like, as long as he's the president, he can turn things around. And if he's not the president, if there's some other guy who's the president, then everything is, you know, the U.S. is just going downhill. The economy is bad. There's unemployment everywhere. Everything is bad. Everything is terrible. But if you make me a president, I'll fix everything. I think that's something that that's his message that I felt.

That's what he was trying to communicate. Biden, on the other hand, was just trying to defend whatever he's done so far. So he has a track record, of course, so it's easier to attack him. But they both have a track record, right? Trump did things when he was president and Biden did things when he's now the president. So I didn't feel like they talked about anything that would make me hopeful about the future. What they did talk about was present and past. And I think people are tired. I am tired talking and listening about what's happening in the present and how great the economy is and how great things are. Fine. All that is good. What's next? Where are we going now? know. You mentioned that there were some policy areas or some issue areas where maybe you could have seen Trump make more of a coherent case or Biden potentially. Were you in an ideal debate

where both candidates bring their A game? Was there any clarity you were hoping to gain from their position on policy issues? Well, I've never seen Trump debate in such a way that I gained clarity, the kind of clarity I would expect from, let's say, Marco Rubio. So I had no expectations. I remember Biden from years ago. I mean, he was a very good debater. He had command of facts. He had a wonderful memory, whether I agreed with him or not. And I don't agree with his tendency toward a tax and spend solution to the economy. But he was impressive as a debater. And, you know, that was gone. I spent years in England, and to listen to candidates for office in England, you heard intelligent, policy-focused debate. And I haven't heard that for years. Were there any issues that you were hoping to hear the candidates explain their position in detail more?

Yes, you know, because one of the things we're hearing is that if Trump comes in, you know, there's going to be a lot less aid to Ukraine. They never brought that up, really. What would you do about Ukraine? And then about Israel, they really didn't say that much about Hamas and Israel. You know, are we going to continue aid? Are we going to continue? Are we going to give, you know, do more to help the Israelis, do more to help the Ukrainians? They didn't really get into that a whole lot. And I did want to hear more about that. And a lot of issues, they touched on issues, but we didn't really learn anything.

And at one point, I was thinking, well, part of the reason we're not learning anything is because this is the first time we've ever had two candidates that have both been president. So what they're doing is they are defending their records to get votes, as opposed to this is what I'm going to do to get votes. Because I think in a way, if you're defending your record, that's more concrete because that's something we can see. What you say you're going to do, you can say you're going to do it. But of course, you've got Congress that's going to get in the way and, you know, you may change your mind or you may not do it. So, but that was one thing we didn't really hear a whole lot about what they're going to do.

So what are you going to do about immigration? What are you going to do about the abortion thing? You know, what are you going to do about the economy? What are you going to do about inflation? We didn't really hear a whole lot about what exactly they were planning to do. It was more just what they had done. Going into the debate, were there issues where you were hoping to hear the candidates explain their position more in detail? And do you feel like those issues were adequately

covered? Yeah, I was definitely hoping to hear Biden, I think, talk about inflation and the economy and immigration as well. And I know I thought the moderators did a pretty good job of asking questions that I felt like were important to Americans. And I wasn't super satisfied with the answers. I wasn't expecting them to be satisfying either. But I know Biden was just like, oh, look, our economy is great. And like I said before, I was like, yeah, it is great by some metrics, but I think you need to acknowledge that a lot of Americans are struggling to

pay for food right now. And if you don't acknowledge that, then a lot of people don't want to vote for you because it looks like you're incredibly out of touch with most Americans. So I didn't really feel that that was a great answer. Um, kind of the same with immigration, just the usual, like kind of dodging the question being like, we're doing a great job. And like, I think you need to have some humility and say, Hey, there are certain things that we are that are in the works that we could be doing better on and what you intend to do over the next four years, rather than taking your weakest points and trying to make them sound better. I feel like most Americans, including myself, just kind of see through that and go, why don't

you pump up the infrastructure bill that you did, things that brought jobs, rather than taking the things that, you know, they're trying to say, you're really weak on this and trying to claim you're strong. Just say, here's something I'd like to do over the next four years. Here's something I have a plan to fix. So is that something that you think the people that you watched with would agree with? Or in general, just you mentioned that you're watching the debate with people from Braver Angels. What would you, what did you hear them saying during the debate or after? What are some takeaways that you think a lot of people that you talk to about politics have? Yeah, I think that the main takeaway was pretty similar to me. It

was just like, this is nothing new. We're kind of exhausted. I know a lot of people were like, oh, they're both too old and they're just playing a game of like, no, you all the time, just accusing each other of things and just kind of, you know, giving little punches, that kind of thing. I think we all appreciated the little golf detour. That was nice and refreshing. Refreshing, sure. Yeah. I don't think anyone was really satisfied with the actual policy answers they gave. And they were just like, it just is what it is at this point. Um, unfortunately, but I think people, um, we're also looking at it with a sense of, uh, recommitment towards the work that we're trying to do to depolarize the country is important because watching these two guys, they're not going to do the work. And so we have to do it. That was a kind of ongoing theme of the politicians aren't going to fix it. So we have to fix it. So I think in a

way also like strengthen the resolve in the room to be like, okay, we can't really rely on our leadership right now. So we're going to rely on ourselves and the type of people that are in this room. Did you feel swayed toward Biden or Trump at any point? Was anything they were saying pulling you in their direction? So before the debate, I was undecided. After the debate, I was not undecided. I definitely knew that I would not be voting for Trump because this was, like I said, this debate was his opportunity

to appeal to people like me. But he is doing the same things that he did in the past. And I think it does not resonate with anyone beyond his own, you know, followers and people who, you know, he seems to have a, you know, hold on. Other than that, I don't think it appeals to that many people. And I think I'm one of those people that he, you know, kept talking about, you know, things that are factually incorrect, the rhetoric, the, you know, talking about how that are factually incorrect. The rhetoric, talking about how he will do things differently because everything else that happened in the past done by other people was bad.

Only he is good. He's the savior. I just don't like that kind of personalities, narcissistic personalities. So it's definitely not going to be Trump. As far as voting goes, yeah, of course, I'll be voting for, I guess, at this point, whoever the Democratic candidate is. You know, I really hope it's Biden. But if it's not Biden, and it's someone else in his place, which is something that's currently been debated everywhere. If he will be replaced and someone else will be taking over, but I don't know if that will happen. But whoever is the Democratic Party's candidate, that's who I will be supporting.

Do you feel swayed right now towards any particular candidate? particular candidate i still feel kind of where i have been um i feel like on a lot of the issues trump stands better still terribly imperfect um and from hearing some of the chatter on my end and some of the people that i'm associated with it sounds like and that's it was thanks to some of the people that uh that i listen to regularly that have been talking about who surrounds Trump, which got me thinking, oh, you know what? I wonder who does influence the president and stuff like that. So they've been helpful in helping me think through that, or at least bringing that to my awareness. still think that i would go towards that republican side because what i've heard is that at least from a from christian other christian perspectives uh a lot of us are planning to vote for trump because of who's advising uh that just came to my attention very recently and

why i'm looking at the issue altogether like i I said. So I think that I would still lean more that direction than I would Biden. I have a really hard time putting my vote for anybody who assumes that there is no life in the womb, that truth is purely relative, your truth is your truth, and we support you no matter what without qualification. matter what without qualification uh and just terrible inconsistency on both sides you know so you know we can take take a child and we can murder him that's fine but separating him from his mother in a in the immigration aspect is not okay well how like why is that the case you know hearing those inconsistencies that was brought out in the debate. I didn't like those inconsistencies on both sides. Trump was inconsistent too, but I, I still think I would go to Trump in this case, uh, all things considered where we're

currently at. So, and that might change now that I have some new information and something new to think through. So we'll see where it goes. Okay. Can you elaborate on some of that, what you just mentioned, which is you've been listening to people discuss who advises the president? What are you hearing in that realm? Yeah. So very, very simply, what I heard was, it was on one podcast that I was listening to, a guy who I know is a Christian, he's a pastor. He said, I would vote for Trump because I know that he has good influences surrounding him. I don't like Trump the man, I like who is advising him. Well, that's what I heard. And that got me thinking, the president is not the sole operator in all of this. He is not the one person making all the decisions independent of anybody. He has

people advising him. I mean, he has to because his job is so immense. And there's so many different departments and so many different things that he has to factor in. He is not omniscient. He doesn't know everything. So who is advising the president? So that it really was just kind of like a, you know, an offhanded thing. It wasn't, there wasn't any development from what I was hearing that the conversation continued, but it struck me and I realized, you know, the president is advised by people that has to factor in at some point, I would think, because I don't think that I mean, they're here and there. You find good people. They're scattered. You just don't know who they are until they come to the light and they demonstrate that for you. So who's surrounding the president? Who is advising the president? Who advised Donald Trump? Who is advising the president who advised donald trump who is advising biden so my line of thinking is more if the people advising them uh have their heads on their

shoulders as it were and they are pushing towards that end that well let me let me say this way they have a worldview that is pushing towards an end that is compatible with what we believe is Christians. That's got to play a big role. If that's coming from the Democratic side or the Republican side, you know, who cares in my view? As long as they are acting consistently with their worldview and pushing forward something

that is compatible with the Christian worldview. So in my mind, that is bringing it one step closer back onto the tracks as it works. I feel like we derail, we've been derailed. And the little bit of history that I've been reading into lately has shown that the derailment happened long, long, long before we typically think. So it's not a recent issue, not within a single generation that we've become derailed, but several generations where we have been derailed. And so, you know, if the advisory board of who is advising the president is going to have a major influence in the way the president acts, then that I think that needs

to be considered in my evaluation of everything. So that's kind of where that came from. And that's that's what has caused me to think in these ways now. Did you feel swayed at all toward anything Biden was saying or anything Trump was saying at any point? Were there any were there any particular moments where you found yourself leaning towards something Trump might have said or Biden might have said? The only thing, well, with Trump, when he was talking about the opportunity zones, I had forgotten about those. And I used to live in Maryland, and I'm basically, you know, born and raised Baltimorean or near Baltimore. And I remember when Trump came to Baltimore to kind of kick off and push these opportunity zones because Maryland is a very heavily Democratic state.

And the governor, that was Larry Hogan, he was Republican, but the mayor was Democratic. And he just, he was republican but the mayor was democratic and he just he was just not having this and here he's getting this great literally this gift that trump and the opportunity is there it's really we're a good thing and he just was not going to take it simply because it was trump and so i i just you know remember that as as one one thing that he did that really was very good. But no, I didn't feel swayed. I wouldn't say swayed one way or the other. You know, I had said before that I was going to vote for Biden, and I just don't know what to do now.

Basically, the debate didn't really change anything for me. I probably feel worse about each candidate than I did before. As far as before saying that, you know, two candidates that I dislike, now it's two candidates that I really think are terrible. They were bad before, they seem worse now. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin. A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief

measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. President Biden's cognitive health was already a contentious issue weakening his campaign. The debate only intensified those concerns, with many of his supporters questioning whether he should continue. Our voters shared their thoughts on the idea of replacing him on the ticket,

who they may like to see, and if this made RFK Jr. a more viable prospect. If Biden was to be replaced, or is there someone you'd like to see take up the ticket? I would love to see Gavin Newsom take up the ticket, but then again, he has his own skeletons. So I don't know how that will, you know, help the Democratic Party win the elections. But, you know, at the same time, it's really, you know, one thing I felt about the media, I think media pretty much missed the point here in terms of the coverage, especially when it comes to the DNC. Republicans are behind a guy who is a felon, who they know is terrible in the long run for the party,

but they are willing to be behind him. No one has asked him to drop out. But then you have New York Times writing this, you know, opinions, editorials, saying he should be dropping out. And it's like, well, have you seen the other guy? Like, have you looked at the other guy? So there's some definitely some like really huge disconnect there where I'm like, well, is the media even like paying attention to what Trump is doing? Because, you know, he's also a candidate, right? And if no one is asking him to, you know, drop out, why ask Biden to reconsider

running? Like, that doesn't make any sense, you know? Yes, he's old. Like, I think everyone knows he's old. And I think in the previous, you know, conversations we've had, I've mentioned that, you know, I, yes, he's old, but I don't think he, but he has a group of people around him that are helping him make certain decisions. And I think as long as the bigger decisions that he's making, yes, he's the face of the country, and he's not in a position to exude that kind of confidence and power. But still, he is not someone who I can't trust. I can trust him to do the right thing. I think that's very difficult when you look at Trump, because you never know what he's

going to do. So that's where I felt like the media sort of missed the point where just look at the other guy, look at his track record, look at what he has done, and then we can discuss who should be dropping out. We can discuss like who should be dropping out. There's a lot of talk right now currently about potentially, you know, should Biden drop out? What's your thoughts on that? Would you be swayed towards the Democratic Party if he did?

That's a good question. It's a really good question. I have heard some of the talks of Biden being encouraged to drop out.'ve also heard biden state very firmly that i am here to stay i am going to beat trump in 2020 and all that fun stuff forgetting what year it is uh which i don't even know if that's out of context or not i just saw that and was cut off right at the clip. I thought that was hilarious. But if Biden did drop out, as far as I know, the line of succession would probably land on Harris, I think. And if she were to run, I don't think I would be swayed to vote for her any more than Biden. I can't think of anybody else. I'm just not aware of who else could be taking that platform. Democratic Party as a whole, I'd have to look even more into the particulars of Democratic because I'm operating on assumptions of left leaning, typically,

you know, pro-choice, pro-LGBTQ agenda, like all of those things. I'd have to go and look into more of that. So him dropping out, I don't think would sway me to the Democratic Party. Somebody really that's got a good head on their shoulders that would have a good advisory board, I think would make a big difference if that was the case on the Democratic side, which I've just been looking into and have been thinking about whether or not that should really be a major deciding influence because i just researched uh just not long ago looking up like okay who's who surrounds the president and advises him so i mean that just tells you how because because I grew up

in the public education system, I still don't have a strong grasp of how everything works. So now I'm going through and like, okay, got to figure out how does this work? So that's kind of where my research is taking me now, or will influence the next interview and the following, I'm sure. But, you know, say a candidate comes and has an amazing advisory board, has an amazing group of people speaking to the issues, advising the president. Say, even if Biden had that, which I don't know, maybe he does, that would definitely change things for me. So I'm starting to see things from a little bit of a different perspective there. I don't think Biden dropping out altogether is the factor that would swing me one way or the other. I think more would go into that.

A scenario that's been floated this morning and this afternoon is the possibility of Biden being replaced. There being a contested convention in August for the Democrats. Are there any candidates on that side who, if that did come to pass, you would give a look at and consider voting for? Or have you thought that far ahead? Well, I have. And even though I'm not a Democrat, I am looking for a way to not vote for Trump. So I would be open. You know, if they avoid, you know, the left-wing extreme and are able to choose a centrist candidate, which Biden was supposed to be, but one who had enough strength to maintain a center and not be unduly influenced, yes, I would definitely be – I mean, if they put Obama forward, it'd be a no-brainer. definitely be, I mean, if they put Obama forward, it'd be a no-brainer. But they can't. And I don't know who they would put forward. I would be not very excited about Kamala Harris. So, if that's what they have in mind, that probably would not persuade me. Just in your personal assessment,

do you think that will happen? That there'll be a move to replace Biden? personal assessment, do you think that will happen? That there'll be a move to replace Biden? Well, you know, the powers that be are resisting that characterization. I think it's the only chance they have to win. So I hope they're considering it. It is unusual, and there'd be a lot of obstacles to overcome. And there isn't an obvious candidate that they would align behind. So I don't know. RFK Jr., Robert F. Kennedy Jr. had an alternate event during the debate, which he called the real debate.

Was that something that you saw at all or have a reaction to? Yeah, I didn't tune into his live stream, but I knew it was going on and I was watching the numbers and I saw that his live stream was getting more views than the Biden-Trump debate. So I thought that that was pretty interesting. And I didn't see a lot of mainstream media covering it. So I know there's kind of some dissatisfaction I heard from people that were like, a lot of people clearly like this third candidate,

but not getting any coverage. That's pretty standard. I was like, I kind of see that as normal that a third party candidate would not be covered as much, even if he's getting a lot of views, just because that's kind of how the media machine works. They're not going to pay attention because they don't see him as a real contender. And it's I mean, he didn't hit crazy high numbers. He had like five million. But I think there will be a good turnout for him at the election. I won't be the one turning out for him. But I I'm kind of at the same time, it gives me a hope that we could have more than two parties in the future or that they should vote with their conscience and their morals that they shouldn't just always vote Republican and Democrat because they feel like they have to. And I think more people voting third party makes people feel like they have a choice and they have a say in who they vote for, which is always a good thing. So for you, not considering voting for RFK Jr., but happy to see momentum in his campaign. Yeah.

Some people were saying that the winner of the debate might have been RFK Jr., moving the needle towards a third party candidate or even the potential for Joe Biden to possibly be replaced on the ticket. Do you have any thoughts on those ideas as far as like either Biden being replaced or RFK as a potential choice for you? RFK will never be a choice for me between his whole anti-vaccine stance and then the thing about the worm in his brain. I mean, you know, no. So he's just off the table for me. A third party candidate would be a possibility.

But again, you know, it all depends on who it is. You know, and it does seem, though, that they are talking about trying to replace Joe Biden. So it would depend on who they replaced him with. I think the Democratic Party would have to replace him with a moderate Democrat. And unfortunately, I don't know that many moderate Democrats are, you know, within Congress or, you know, within the circle that could possibly run for president. The only one I could really think of off the top of my head would be Joe Manchin, but he already said he's not going to do it now. But then again, we know how politicians are.

They say they, you know, they say they're not going to do something and then they turn around and do it. So, you know, that would be a possibility. I guess the shorter answer is I'm open to any possibilities at this point. But, you know, we just have to see what happens. So if the vote was held today, if the election was held today and you had to go into the booth and you make your choice, do you know who you'd pick? In spite of all this, I think I would still pick Joe Biden because if looking how he looked last night, now, I know they also said he had a cold, so maybe he wasn't feeling real good. I know he's had a pretty intense week of debate prep, but I think that he's got enough

handlers around him that they could keep things going in, you know, keep the government from falling apart, at least keep things status quo. Whereas Trump, I think that would just be, you know, full out pandemonium. And, you know, just with what he said last night, you know, that what he said last night you know that would he contest the election well yes if it was free if it was fair if it did well you know what all that means it means no I will contest it as long as I win and it really scares me that scares me what could happen on January 6 again this year when you know the election has to be certified. That scares me. There's a lot of things about Trump that really scare me. So it would have to be, if I had to vote today, I would have to say Biden. And again, I'm not voting for Biden. I guess I'm voting against Trump. Do you feel like this was a watershed moment in the campaign or in the election?

A watershed moment in the campaign or in the election? Absolutely. Yeah, I'll be shocked if Biden can recover. I mean, he rose high at the State of the Union. And, of course, he had a prepared manuscript that he didn't have to think on his feet. He was in charge of that moment, but he really was impressive. I had problems with his policies, but he appeared more presidential. This, any other candidate I've known in history that presents himself like this doesn't have a chance to become president of the United States.

That seems to be the takeaway. Yeah, it's just I didn't I honestly i didn't expect it to be this bad i mean i've been watching the clips of um how he's he's struggling but i i just i didn't expect it to be this obvious That's it for episode five of The Undecideds. This election season has already proven that unpredictability is the only certainty. In our next episode, we will talk with our voters about their thoughts on the Republican National Convention, Trump's vice presidential pick J.D. Vance, and the assassination attempt on former President Trump. We'll see you then. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media production.

This episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by John Long. Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokova, Will Kabik, John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Long. For more content from Tangle Media, please go to our website at retangle.com.