Tangle - The Undecideds: One Year Later

Episode Date: February 25, 2026

One year ago, we wrapped up a months-long series following five undecided voters across the country — people who, like millions of Americans, were trying to sort through the noise of a divisive, turbulent election at a moment when trust in institutions was fraying, norms were being tested, and the stakes of the decision felt unusually and perilously high.From March of 2024 until the week of the election, we followed their reactions to criminal trials, assassination attempts, debate meltdowns, convention chaos, and a last-minute change at the top of the Democratic ticket. In the end, they all made a decision, some definitively, some reluctantly. Now it’s February 2026. Donald Trump is one year into his second term, and we wanted to check back in. How do they feel about the vote they cast? What’s surprised them? What’s worried them? And what has given them hope?We reached out to all of our original participants. Zahid chose not to return for this follow-up for reasons he didn’t disclose. But Claire, Brian, Diana, and Phil were willing to pick the conversation back up — and reflect on where they are now, one year later.Ad-free podcasts are here!To listen to this podcast ad-free, and to enjoy our subscriber only premium content, go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can⁠⁠⁠ subscribe to Tangle by clicking here⁠⁠⁠ or drop something⁠⁠⁠ in our tip jar by clicking here.⁠⁠⁠The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And founder, Isaac Saul, an executive producer, John Law, is the undecideds. I'm Isaac Saul, and this is the undecides. I proudly accept your nomination for president. His comeback starts right now. Former President Donald Trump locked in the Republican nomination with ease. There were virtually no sitting Republicans attending his own children declined to attend. Former U.S. President Donald Trump has been found guilty on all 34

charges in his hush money trial. 34 felony counts here. All guilty. Trump has become the first American president to be convicted of a felony in U.S. history. For a former American president to be criminally convicted. This is a rigged, disgraceful trial. The special counsel referred

to the president as a, quote, sympathetic, well-meaning, an elderly man with a poor memory. We finally beat Medicare. He did beat Medicaid. He beat it to death. He did not do well at all. You can have the old man versus the con man. Calls for Biden to suspend his re-election campaign. Take a look at what happened.

The 45th president of the United States injured but alive. Literally came the assassin's bullet, which came within a fraction of an inch of ending his life. President Joe Biden has just announced that he is dropping out of the 2024 presidential race. For many, the highlight was seeing Harris make history as the first black and South Asian woman atop a major party presidential tickets. I didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black. Trump and Harris would meet for the first time in their only debate. And Donald Trump certainly should not be telling a woman what to do with her body.

They're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats. Nine days in counting before the election, Donald Trump chose the historic Madison Square Garden. Literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. Yeah. I think it's called Puerto Rico. And everyone you know, you have to do it. You have to vote, vote, vote.

Your vote is your voice, and your voice is your power. The Associated Press has called the presidency for Republican Donald Trump. One year ago, we wrapped up a month's long series following five undecided voters across the country. People who, like millions of Americans, were trying to sort through the noise of a divisive, turbulent election. at a moment when trust and institutions was fraying, norms were being tested, and the stakes of the decision felt unusually and perilously high. From March of 2024 until the week of the election, we followed their reactions to criminal trials, assassination attempts, debate meltdowns,

convention chaos, and a last-minute change at the top of the Democratic ticket. In the end, each voter made a decision, sub-definitively, some reluctant, Now, it's February 26. Donald Trump is one year into his second term, and we wanted to check back in. How did these voters feel about the vote they cast, the decisions they made?

What surprised them? What has worried them? And what has given them hope? We've reached out to all five of our original participants. Only one, Zahid, chose not to return for this follow-up for reasons he did not disclose. But Claire, Brian, Diana, Anna and Phil were willing to pick the conversation back up and reflect on where they are now one year later.

This is Tangle Managing Editor Ari Weitzman. The undecided voter I had the pleasure of interviewing throughout the presidential campaign season was Claire from Ohio. Claire is a young voter. This last presidential election was her first time participating in a federal election, and she was also deeply torn like our other undecided voters on what her decision was going to be. Claire said she grew up in a household with somewhat conservative values, but mostly moderate, and went to a university and had some friends that were predominantly liberal, like a lot of young people who are going to college.

Claire also has an interesting job. She works for the company AllSides, which is a media bias rating company, and it's her job, much like ours, to consider the bias of different media streams. She weighed a lot of different things when she was making her decision. she thought she would trust Trump a little bit more in foreign policy. She thought she might trust Harris a little bit more on domestic issues, but was still not certain about whether or not she trusted either candidate. In the end, she ended up casting her vote for a third party,

something that she agonized over, and something that she wrote about both in a Sunday edition for Tangle, as a reader essay, as well as on her blog, Mastisa, which I personally recommend checking out. So I caught up with Claire. We talked about how she felt about her decisions, what she thought about the Trump administration so far, if she has any reservations, and what she's learned over the last year. As always, it was an interesting conversation with Claire, who is a very reflective, deep-thinking person, and I think you appreciate what she had to say. All right, this is Ari here with Claire, one of our undecided voters from Ohio, Claire.

What's new? How are you doing? It's been a while. I'm pretty good. Happy to be invited back. How are you? Oh, we're good. I'm happy to have you back. It's been a pretty eventful first year for President Donald Trump's second term of office. So we have a lot to discuss. I think for listeners who might not recall, you voted third party, correct? I did. And since we've talked, Trump has been really involved. So let's just get right into it. Now, knowing what you do, how do you feel about your vote in the 2024 election? Would you? you change it if you could, or do you think you made the right decision? I don't know about right or wrong, but I don't think I would change my decision. I do think I miscalculated what Trump's second term would look like. I think it's been worse than I thought it would be, for sure.

But also looking back, I think I have a lot more clarity around the fact that I think voting for anyone and including myself has a lot less to do with the people. people running and a lot more to do with who you conceive yourself to be and who you most identify with. And so, like, for example, if you think of yourself as a man of God versus a feminist woman of color, that's going to lead you in different directions. And I think for me, I mostly think of myself as like a writer and an independent thinker. And I'm looking back and realizing, oh, if independent thinkers near the top of that list, I'm kind of priming myself to expect to move in a different direction than other people to expect to be kind of an outsider or an outlier.

And therefore, like, voting third party aligned with my conception of that in a way that if I had just voted for Harris or someone else, might have disrupted that. And so I kind of look back and, like, oh, it's so obvious that I made that choice. I don't know if it's the right choice or the wrong choice. But it is the choice that I made, and I can, like, understand why that happened, irrespective of whether that was like the objectively correct choice, because I think none of us really have a sense of what's objectively correct. Right. That's a good point. We shouldn't be asking, do you think you made the objectively right choice? But the choice for you, you're saying it's an

interesting reflection that you're thinking about yourself and the way others have voted and reading about election coverage and saying it's mostly based on the way that an individual constructs their own conception of their own identity. So maybe I can twist the question a little bit and say, do you think you would construct your conception of your own identity any differently now that would maybe inform a different choice? I don't think my conception has changed a whole lot in the past year, but now that I'm like aware of the way it informed my choice, I'm also aware that like I need to be attentive to the fact that that could be a blind spot for me of expecting to be the centrist in the room, expecting to be the most heterodox person in the room. like I'm kind of used to that and they getting used to that could potentially cloud my judgment in areas where like there might be a clear moral instinct that I have that like this is right, this is wrong or I side with the left or the right more on this and I might like pull back

from where I should be actually making a judgment because I'm so used to moving in a certain direction. So I definitely have more awareness around that. And I actually have. I, hasn't shifted my conception, but it might. Like, I'm aware of the fact that I'm like, oh, blind spots exist and I should try and account for that. And maybe that will cause a shift for me in the future. It hasn't quite gone there yet, but I'm like aware that it could. Okay. It's a big update on Claire. I like that. So we, I'll not shell it as best I can, not necessarily going to try to look at this election and use it as reasons to change the way you think of yourself, but to maybe be a little bit more aware that your own self-conceptions

are going to be driving decisions you're making as they offer all of us. Yeah. Well, then let's get more granular then about this administration so far. Looking back at the past 12 months of the Trump mid-administration, what are some of the events or actions that stand out to you that you think are indicative of this second term? Yeah. I think one thing that really caught my attention that made me feel like, oh, I was wrong about how bad this could get.

Was the Oztirk case seeing video footage of this woman who's about the same age as me getting taken off the street by people who are not identified as ICE who are wearing masks in their face? And this just for context for Mosheye Oz Turk, the former graduate student in Tufts University. Yes. Yeah, seeing that footage was pretty disturbing. And then now, of course, seeing footage from Minneapolis, Minnesota, where there was a shooting that an ICE officer shot a woman that, to my mind.

my eye looks clearly preventable is also indicative, I think, of a negative direction. And also seeing gradual effects on free speech that some of the deportations seem to be linked to pro-Palestinian speech. And then also talks about not allowing people into the country based on their social media history is quite disturbing to me because free speech is a very big issue. And then also looking at the foreign policy angle, though, I am glad to see that there is a ceasefire in the Middle East that Trump helped put in place. It's absolutely not perfect. And there absolutely needs to be more work done there. But it's held relatively stable. So I do appreciate that. I don't appreciate our intervention in Venezuela and our recent affair that for there. I think that's also pretty big right now and indicative of I guess something that feels kind of interesting for the administration because some of them

have been very non-interventionist in the past, right? Talking about creating more peace, especially people like J.D. Vance, have been very vocal about not getting involved in more wars. And so I think to see that happen is, I don't know yet what it necessarily means. I don't know if it was about oil or regime change, but I imagine And seeing that play out might tell us a lot about the future direction. And let's stick with foreign policy maybe a bit because that was when we were speaking one of the things that you were listing as a potential, not a solid, but a potential reason why you would consider voting for Trump, that you could see a Trump administration doing more to try to bring America's adversaries into a sort of posture of stability. And at the time, you led with Israel, but at the time, the things that were really prominent in our minds about foreign policy were Israel and Ukraine. So now that we're talking about Venezuela, we're also seeing in the news, strikes in Iran, strikes in Nigeria.

I'm curious if your thoughts about foreign policy have changed at all. Yeah, I think they have a little bit. My hope for the best case in our Trump was kind of a strength through peace. and I think we haven't really seen that. I think we've seen chaos, which I certainly was aware of as a risk. And yeah, we've definitely seen that risk come to fruition in a lot of ways. Because there has been against some success in the Middle East. And then I would be like, take that success and run with it.

Run your victory lap and like keep trying in Ukraine because I understand that this is one year into a presidency. you know, that is going to be longer and that these are very difficult issues to working on, wars that have been going on for quite a long time. There's a lot of history there. So I understand that peace takes time. I don't particularly understand why we're committing a bunch of strikes on other countries. There's a lot of questions for me that, like, you can't really know the answer to without being in those rooms where decisions are happening of like why this place and why now around Venezuela and other countries. Like, there are so many things going on, you know,

genocides in various countries where I'm like, we could be intervening there and saving lives, but instead we're intervening in this other country. And, like, there's, I feel like there's done a lot of communication around why we're making these foreign policy choices at this time in these places. And so it feels a bit chaotic and confusing and definitely not the direction. I hoped that they were going. Then let's maybe ask that.

So what was the direction that you were maybe not hope, but you're expecting the administration to go into as Trump was inaugurated in January? I think, obviously the campaign promise is America first, which I don't totally agree with, but what I expected from it was that it would be very non-interventious. I was not surprised to see us pull out of a bunch of global organizations like the UN. Trump has done that in the past. So I kind of expected us to pull back a little bit from the global stage with the exception of things like tariffs where he's kind of, I think, trying to negotiate with people and trying to get things from them. Like he's kind of playing bully, which is what I expected, at least economically.

but I guess I didn't expect that we would put our own American lives at risk by intervening militarily as much as we have. I guess I expected more like business negotiations with other countries, sure. Withdrawing from other countries, sure. I didn't expect that we would actively put our nation's men in danger for, I guess for reasons that are unclear to me a little bit. So, Claire, a lot of uncertainty so far, lack of clarity about what you think the administration's motivations are. With that in mind, just wondering what are the things that you are paying the most attention to? So outside foreign policy, outside troop deployments, what are the current issues today, as we sit here talking Friday, January 9th, 2026 that you are most paying attention to? I'm definitely paying attention to what's going on with ICE and immigration and anything to do with free speech.

And also, like, looking a little bit about affordability, I don't know a lot about economics, to be honest. I'm learning it as we go here. I do learn a lot during a Trump administration. I'm like, oh, he did this. Is this a bad thing? No, I have to learn economic terms. but I think I'm kind of paying attention to whether he's repeating some of the same mistakes that Biden did around like people complaining about things not being affordable and him just being like, the economy's great. Like, look at what I've done. And not acknowledging, I think it's like always a bad thing to when people are complaining about affordability being bad to say, no, like you're not seeing things clearly. Generally, like you want to listen to the American people, I think. And that regard. So it's interesting to see, I think people, they're always rooting for their guys.

They don't make a lot of comparisons between Trump or Biden unless it's like, my guy did better. And so it's interesting to see the ways in which they might be similar, I guess. So I'm also like noticing things like that. And also random little things that don't fit into the narrative. I think people are supremely confident about what they think. For example, they'll be like, Trump is clearly racist and he hates universities because he's suing all these universities. And I, one of the things that kind of sticks out in my head is that he created some permanent funding for historically black colleges and universities and increased their Pell Grants. And like, if he's racist and hates universities, how does this particular action fit in?

And I don't have the answer to that. But it is interesting to pay attention to the news and things that get glossed over so quickly because they don't seem to. to fit into anyone's narrative of who he is, and just observing how those are constructed. So turning away from Trump a little bit as we take a step back, the next election that we're going to have midterms this year in November, Trump will not be on the ballot. So as you're thinking about your choice and the things that you care about, have you noticed that any priorities of yours have changed? Does anything happen in the past year that has made you reconsider your own political values or identity?

I don't think too much has changed. I think I'd be looking for the same thing I was, you know, last year, basically, which is someone who has an interest in bringing the country together, someone who listens to the American people, a fairly common sense, who is, you know, talking about things that Americans care about, like affordability and crime and social media. basically the things that are in American's lives, everyone wants to be safe and have an affordable life. And like, we're all looking for the same things. And someone who speaks to that instead of doing like culture warrior stuff, I think would be great. Okay. So looking for people to turn the

temperature down maybe in 2026, realists, I guess. Yeah, that'd be nice. So yeah, I think we agree with that. But let's end by taking a bit of a broader stance and just asking more generally two-part question here at the end. What worries you about the future and what gives you hope? Okay. What worries me is that there seems to be, I guess, a crackdown on our own people in terms of speech, in terms of increasing deportations of people who are in some cases, rightfully here, who are in some cases U.S. citizens who are getting caught in the crossfire of situations. And so that worries me a lot, that, you know, our people might not have the freedoms that

America has founded on. What gives me hope is that Americans, we don't like to sit down and take anything. And seeing, for example, the No King's protests got really big. And protesting isn't always my thing. It's not the way I prefer to be a good citizen. There are many ways to do it. And at first, I almost thought it was kind of silly. But when I saw how big they got, I was like, no, actually, this is a great representation

of how democracy works. Like, if there's something we don't like, we all come together and we say, hey, we don't like it. And we petition our own government. like actually this is what we were always meant to do. And it gives me a lot of hope that I think people are doing that and will continue to do that. They will find ways to serve in ways that make sense and matter to them in their lives. And I can really appreciate that.

People standing up in whatever way makes sense to them. And like I said, I think people will continue to do that. And that's exciting to me. I want to maybe end with I'm going to attempt something. which I'm going to sort of paraphrase as closely as I can a quote that I just read from a British soldier who was leaving New York after the British were surrendering and signed the peace treaty and were going back to the UK. He had gotten on his boat, came back to get something expecting to find Manhattan in disorder, and then wrote down this observation before he got back on board. an original people, these Americans, they seem incapable of being governed, but fully capable of governing themselves. So hopefully that founding feature remains a part of who we are moving forward.

Yeah. Well, as usual, as always, thank you for taking the time to talk to us, Claire. If people want to read more from Claire, I personally recommend your WordPress, or sorry, not WordPress, your substack, right? Which is Mestiza. What is it? Can you plug it? it real quick for us. Yeah, my substock is called the Mastisa. I recommend it personally. Thank you again, Claire, and have a good 2026. You too. Thank you. We'll be right back after this quick

commercial break. This is Magdalena, CEO of Tangle, and in 2024, I spent time speaking with Brian. He's a married 30-something conservative Christian father of two living in Arizona. Brian comes from a deeply rooted faith tradition and his family owns a leather-bound Bible-making business. Though he's recently begun work as a teacher, he's at the very same school his mother teaches at, and he shared he was excited his daughter would soon attend the very same school. Throughout the lead-up to the election, what stood up most to me about Brian was the way he approached politics, both through a deeply philosophical lens and that as an everyday American. He often found himself grappling with the fact that there wasn't a perfect fit or a clean solution

to the questions he was asking about his values, his community, and the country. Brian wrestled with a feeling that no candidate fully embodied the conservative Christian values he hoped to see reflected in national leadership. However, he felt ultimately that President Trump came closest to those values, and that's what he voted for in 2024. In this follow-up conversation, Brian shared his deep concern over the country becoming increasingly divided. He spoke about the assumptions people often made about conservative Christians.

men and reflected on the real world impact Charlie Kirk's death has had on his community. He also reflected on the first year of Trump's second term, where his expectations were met, especially around immigration enforcement and the border, where they weren't, and how he's thinking about faith, leadership, and belonging in a country that feels increasingly more and more divided. He also shared where he finds hope in the long view of history. This is my conversation with Brian. Brian, it's nice to sit here virtually and talk to you again. It's been over a year since we last spoke.

Before we dive in, how have you been? Yeah, it's been a whole year. I can't believe that. It has been pretty crazy. And I'm happy. It's the good kind of crazy. You know, I've had a job change going from one school, to teaching at new school.

And I'm settling into that role pretty well. I have been trying to hang out with the family, trying to make the most of my time, as I were. And it's certainly been a wild ride. But, you know, living with a young family in this world is just a wild ride by nature, it seems like. So all is going very well, very happy with where I'm at. And just continue in arm, doing the things, you know what I mean?

Yeah, it sounds like a lot of people could probably resonate with what you just said, which was a wild ride and just keeping on doing what we're doing. It's been one year since the inauguration. How do you feel about your vote back in 2024? So I am happy with my vote still. and not because things are particularly great. I don't really think I could say that things are particularly great. There's still problems, but the thing is, I'd rather have these problems

than any other problems posed by the opposite vote. So I would say I am navigating what I expected to be navigating, and having the types of conversations with other people that I expected to be having with this particular vote, with this particular set of outcomes. So overall, I mean, I still wish things could be better. Of course, I wish things could be better. Most people, I'm sure, wish things could be better. It's just a long process, and it takes a lot of time.

And, you know, I am just hanging on, doing my little thing and trying to remain as consistent as I can and as faithful as I can with what I've got. So, you know, all that to say, I'm happy with where I'm at. I don't think I'd change anything. Yeah, I remember just when we spoke throughout our time leading up to the election. And, I mean, we were speaking when Biden was still running, and then he, you know, opted not to run for re-election. And then Harris came in.

And I remember you kind of grappling with feeling like, you know, you know, know, that Trump maybe didn't embody all of the Christian values that he had, you had hoped for in a leader, but that you felt like he more closely aligned with your values than, you know, Harris or Biden. Right, right. Yeah, it's definitely the lesser of the two evils. And I'm just the way things are playing out on the opposite side, seeing certain Democrats as they hit the public spectacle and reading up on some of them and what they're uh what kind of ideas they're espousing and things like that it really has me concerned and people who align with those ideals they worry me because of what type of future they might bring into this country if they get into those seats

of power so you know trump and the republicans even though they're still far from what i would consider optical and ideal, I have to stay on that side of the camp just because of where my values align. So yeah, I remember very vividly thinking, what would a world look like under this democratic rule in that sense? How has a year one of the Trump administration, you know, matched your expectations so far? What have you appreciated, you know, that has come out of it, maybe some of the things that you don't appreciate, just, you know, issues to you that are according to you. Yeah. I think one of the things I appreciate is that things get done and things move at a pretty quick pace. I mean, you see it happening all around, even right now, with securing the border,

taking care of illegal immigration, and cleaning that mess up, as it were. Now on the flip side of that, same coin, I don't necessarily appreciate being obnoxiously aggressive. There's a way to do things that's prompt and quick and that's effective while also not being completely arrogantly foolish while doing it. So kind of a two-sided coin there. I'm happy to see things moving along and getting done, but boy, could they be done with so much more grace and poise, I guess, as it were. it just seems kind of ugly the way things are getting done, which isn't surprising to me. I mean, the character of Trump and who he is, it aligns with his actions and with the way he does things. So, you know, always hoping and wishing for a better scenario, but living with what we have today.

Right. I remember from our conversations that the border issues were, um, concerning for you just because of your proximity in Arizona to the southern border. Have you noticed any noticeable change in your community? I haven't noticed any change in my community specifically. I'm in a pretty, not necessarily secluded, but I'm finding that I was a lot more removed from these things than I originally thought. my daily life and the people I see and the interactions I have and where I survey in the valley, it doesn't look any different than it did before. Now, I hear of reports and I see headlines of

things like what happens, say, in Minnesota recently. I see that kind of stuff. And I think, wow, this is certainly messy, but things are getting done. And other areas of the country that have immigration issues. But surprisingly, what I've seen in Arizona here where I'm at, I just don't notice a whole lot of change. Now, it could be that things are going on behind the scenes that I don't see, obviously. But I find it very interesting. I thought life would look a little more different day to day and who I see, who I interact with, but all is pretty standard. Yeah, you touched on some of the issues that were happening. in Minnesota recently.

Can you just maybe expand on that with your thoughts and feelings around that? Sure. It definitely surprises me that the two views are so diametrically opposed on what we define as illegal immigration. And what happened up in Minnesota

with the lady who got shot and with seeing all of the footage and everything like that, you see both sides reacting, not necessarily responding, just gut reactions. And as a result, you see the true colors of both sides coming out. A lot of aggression on the part of the people that are trying to do the work and get everything cleaned up, and a lot of aggression on the people, not necessarily even involved per se, but who just want to stand up for people who are living their lives here and they're undocumented. And so it's, for me, just a fascinating picture.

It's super interesting to see even like Tim Walts' response and seeing some of the things that he's saying, I'm surprised that, you know, just looking back in history, if these things being said today and these ideas of, you know, letting people stay here undocumented and giving them full rights as Americans and all of the privileges that go with that, seeing that, if that's being said, say, in a period of history early on where the country's in development, I'd be super interested to see what kind of responses historical figures would have to the kinds of things that are being said, the ideas, all that kind of stuff. So it's just, it's wild, just a wild picture, a wild scenario, a wild, everything happening

with immigration and with the way that we define our terms and, you know, what's morally acceptable, what's morally right in these situations. It's like nobody has a standard, which, you know, people don't have standards. They throw them out the door. do what they think feels right. So that's kind of my take on where we're at with that up in Minnesota. Switching gears, is there any of the core issues that we spoke about leading up to the election that you would like President Trump to address moving forward in his term, anything that he hasn't really worked on that you're kind of waiting for him to act on

or just curious about some of the issues concerning that? Well, the previous issues I've mentioned while we were doing the thing during the election, I haven't kept as closely tied to them in the sense that I haven't been tracking, what's been done, what hasn't been done super closely because of a lot of changes in life as it's going right now, new job, family updates, and that kind of stuff. But I just, I wish I could see more of a consistent Christian perspective coming out from the White House and informing everything that's being done. A lot of the getting in the weeds of the day-to-day, there's so many different things. I mean, you know, Trump looks at someone the wrong way and that makes the headlines.

it becomes too overwhelming and too much overload to take in when you have that many headlines and that many perspectives and voices all trying to explain their piece and their perspective. So it's been extremely difficult to keep up with all of the changes that have been taking place and trying to stay with it. So I've focused more on kind of my daily life and what I have to do to remain consistent and faithful in my role. But just in terms of hopes of what I still wish I could see, and it touches all areas, abortion, immigration, LGBTQ issues, all of that, I'm still waiting for the Christian worldview to inform what's happening.

And there's a difference between that and doing things that a Christian world deed would like to have happen, but for the wrong motivations, if you know what I mean. I don't care for that to happen. I care for the worldview to be the informant in all these things. That's the big thing that I still want to see happen and that I'm still waiting for and that I feel like it's a toss-up whether it will happen in this presidential term or in future ones. I wanted to just ask you how the death of Charlie Kirk impacted your Christian community

and what you've seen kind of the fallout from that. That was a hard one because I don't have any ties to Charlie Kirk personally, but my sister plays, she's a professional musician, and she played guitar for his weekly, they were like weekly turning TPSA events at a church that she plays at. she was always kind of in Charlie's proximity and was rubbing shoulders with Charlie. She didn't know him personally all that well, but was around him a lot. So when we found out what happened with Charlie, it hit our whole family hard because we know

how close in proximity he was to us, and we understood what he stood for. So it had a big effect on my family. It had a big effect on our Christian community. and the effect you can really see. You highlight the response of the death to Charlie compared to the death of, say, the lady who got shot up in Minnesota. Both are tragic, and the responses are very, very telling. The Christian community rallied together

and started praying more together, petitioning God to continue to bring, bring forth his plan and to allow what needs to have happen happen. And there's a lot of love and support and a lot of faithfulness being spread and a lot of mourning, of course. But the striking thing is, where are we going now? How are we going to respond to this? It's not with violence. It's not with protesting. It's with prayer and it's with an attitude that we're here on mission, on purpose doing what needs to be done. That's kind of the response within our communities that has been massive.

And of course, we had the funeral service here in Glendale, which my wife and I almost attended, but we ended up not attending for, I think we got sick around that time. But that funeral service was very telling as well in seeing all the people that surrounded him and his influence and all the rest. So definitely made huge shockwaves in the Christian communities. here specifically in Arizona and across the country within the people we identify with. We've seen a lot of response. So definitely a big issue. Yeah, I feel as though it was a pivotal

kind of moment for many. And I wonder if you feel like this could be a time of unity coming out of or how are you feeling kind of moving forward? Are you hopeful about the future one year on and all that has happened and transpired? I would say I'm hopeful. I'm an optimist as it relates to history and where is history going and where will we all end up. I'm an optimist in that regard, but it's a long view, not a short view. A short view, I don't think there really is any hope of unity or coming together. Within the Christian communities, there's a lot of hope in unity,

but as it relates to, can we get along left and right together? I don't think there's going to be any unity anytime soon. And I mean, the responses of some of the big ticket item things that we've been seeing in headlines gives me that impression. You see, like with Charlie's death and everything,

that brought unity within Christian circles, but the unity there is not mutual. There's the other side, there's a lot of videos of celebration and posting that people are glad that Charlie's dead. And these people that are taking and really making themselves known for what they hate. So I don't see any unity in any respect between left and right. And I don't think there will be anytime soon because we stand on different worldviews. We have completely different views of reality. you know what you know, of ethics, of all the rest.

And the only way that I think that can be resolved is when the correct worldview prevails and people are willing to finally submit to their lord and their lord, really. So, and there's so much more to talk about there, super surface level coming from me, but for the sake of time, you know, that's kind of how I see it. But again, in the long view, I take an optimistic view of history. I think it'll all come about as it needs to come about. And one day, whether it's my daughter's generation, whether it's my grandkids generation or beyond that, I think it will come together at some point.

And is that what is giving you hope in the day-to-day is that history tends to course correct and so forth? Yeah, absolutely. You've mentioned in past conversations, just you're worried too about being kind of lumped into what a conservative Christian man is maybe to some folk, right? And I'm curious how you kind of, on your day-to-day, kind of look forward.

Yeah, this is really where my everyday life and politics, this is kind of where the rubber meets the road for me. It has to do with history. It has to do with more the big picture rather than just the little details and things here and there. The details do matter, but in order to stay sane, I keep looking at the big picture thinking, okay, history is going somewhere. I believe God's in control of history. he's bringing it to a point, and that point that he has in mind is good. It accomplishes his purpose. It glorifies him, and it does what needs to get done. And so my day to day is all about looking forward to the future and what kind of a world, or rather what I am teaching my daughter and her generation in terms of how, how do you go about fixing what needs to get fixed?

That's why I became teachers, because I believe that the changing of this world is in the hands of the future generations. And my job here is to equip them with the tools to do what they need to do. And will it get worse before it gets better? I think so. That's certainly how it has been in history. But that doesn't concern me that things are going to get worse before they get better. better because the church in Christianity has always thrived under persecution. I mean, you look at early Christian history, early church history, when the most intense persecution

on the Christians in 303 to 313 AD, you see Rome trying to extinguish Christianity altogether. And what happens? It continues to grow. It continues to explode. And it continues to go where God intends. intended to go. So will that happen here? I have no idea. But if it does, I'm hopeful because the blood of the martyrs is the seat of the church. So on the day to day, that's where my mind is at. It doesn't, you know, the details matter, but what really needs to inform how we view the details

is our worldview. Where is history going? Is it going towards a good intended destination? if not then people have no hope i don't think but if it is and if that destination is good i think there's all the reason to persevere and to hold on for as long as possible even if it means you lose your life for it so um yeah my day to day is filled with all of that in my head well thank you for sharing um is there any other final kind of reflections you'd like to share before we finish up? You know, I wish that information overload wasn't a thing. Otherwise, I would be soaking it up

and I'd be understanding and being way on top of it. But unfortunately, I lack in that regard. I let my day-to-day get the best of me. And I should be more informed that I am in a lot of ways. But in the most important ways, I really feel like I am informed. And that's what guides every interaction from day to day. So I'm happy with why I'm at.

I am optimistic going forward, but I'm also prepared for what comes next. So we'll see what the next few years look like. We'll see what the next decade looks like. And yeah, we'll see what happens. We will see. Thank you, Brian, for taking the time to speak with me. And hopefully we can follow up again. and see where we're at.

I look forward to that. I appreciate your time as well. Thank you. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Hi, this is Senior Editor Will Kayback. In 2024, I spoke with Phil, a pastor and professor from central Pennsylvania. Phil holds conservative views on most issues and identified as a Republican for much of his life. However, he shared that since Trump came to power, he's felt increasingly distant from the party. A central theme of our conversations was Phil's belief that character is destiny, which underscored his uncertainty about his vote in the 2024 presidential election.

In broad strokes, Phil supported many of Trump's core policy proposals, stronger immigration enforcement, ending conflicts abroad, and pushing back on progressive social policies across major institutions. However, he did not vote for Trump in 2016 or 2020, choosing in to write in a candidate. His concerns about the president's character and morals were just as potent in 2024, and he ultimately voted the same way as he had in the past, writing in a candidate. When we spoke a few weeks ago, Phil reflected on his decision not to support a major party candidate for president and shared his thoughts on how year one of the second Trump administration

has matched up against his expectations. Here's my conversation with Phil. Hey, Phil. great to have you back and to be talking again. Yeah, it's good to be talking to you too. So first question is not specific to anything about politics or the news, just about you personally. Any major life updates or changes in your life since we talked last? I know we got into a little bit of the personal life over the course of the End Decided series, but just curious if there is anything notable that has changed in your life since we spoke. Well, my father passed. So that's

fairly significant, but it was a good passing. He was 92 years old. He had Alzheimer's on the last year or two. And he went surrounded by grandchildren and children, and he went peacefully. So it was good to fly back to Arizona and be with my family and participate in it. Well, that's good to hear. I'm glad that. that you were all able to be together and with him for that. So moving into, obviously, the main topic of our discussion today, which is the follow-up on our series of conversations in the lead-up to the 2024 election.

The gist of this conversation is just going to be to reflect on that process and your vote in that election, and then everything that's happened in the year since President Trump was inaugurated for the second time. Everything that's happened. So this will probably be a quick conversation, not much to discuss. But just as a starting point, just to jump off in a very broad conversation, when you look back on that election, you think about it today, what stands out in your mind? And when you think about your vote in that election, is there anything that you would do differently now?

The way I handled the dilemma I faced is that I refuse to vote for either candidate, which is not an action I prefer. taking, but it was stand up and saying, I'm not going to be forced to vote for either one because I think neither are qualified. And so I stand by that. There's been nothing that has happened that would change my thinking. And my general response is that, you know, I'm a right-leaning, center-right-leaning, Republican, a classic liberal who's finding it difficult to locate himself in the modern Republican Party, but not in the least bit interested in participating in the current nature of the Democratic Party. So I'm a person without a home. And that remains the case. I think Trump has turned out to be, in some ways, the worst case scenario of himself. who he was the first time, I think, was held in check, perhaps by the fact that it was the first time. And he seemed less able to mobilize people to personal loyalty.

He seemed a bit more controlled in terms of the exertion of power. and that's all gone by the wayside. And so the things I was most concerned about have become true. Now, I find myself, I mean, there are other questions, but I find myself in this strange place that I feel, I felt and I feel like there have been some directional issues in the American political culture. in the academic culture, in the news media culture, a shift in a, for lack of a better word, awoke direction, that needed correction. And I think it's the reason why Trump was elected, that enough people were fed up, frustrated. a feeling like we need some change. But Trump's the kind of guy who's even when he's shooting in the right direction,

he shoots a bazooka, not a rifle. He comes in with a sledgehammer or a flamethrower instead of a laser or a scalpel. And so even when I think, for example, you know, tightening up the borders, doing something about the immigration problem. Okay, that's the right direction. What we're witnessing now, very few people, I think, at least that I'm in touch with, can get behind, except those who are most doctrinaire and supported him. Doge is aiming at a good thing in the sense of we have an incredible amount of waste. but it was a stage show.

It didn't accomplish anything long term except to shift the ethos. There is, yeah, they're talking about a vibe shift. There's a shift in ethos, whether it's DEI or immigration or issues of assertion of, you know, power. And some of that might be acceptable. But of course, the way he's managing it is just overdone everyone. So, I mean, the lightest thing. I mean, maybe we'll get into this. What's happening in Venezuela is classic Trump.

And there's some really good things about it and some really scary things. Yeah, I do want to talk a bit about Venezuela and maybe in the context of this next question, but you mentioned immigration, you mentioned Doge. When you think back about the first year of the administration, what do you feel like were the defining stories or elements of it in your minds and what you paid closest attention to? This is, that's a hard question to answer because it is the nature of Donald Trump. to suck all the air out of the room and get all of the attention, media's attention, all of the time. I mean, he did that in his first term, but he's done it, if it's possible, even more so. So actually, my response is a kind of weariness. I can't keep up.

and and it takes a lot of attention to to keep up because in my relationship to Trump and the current Republican Party is and this is true in the Democratic Party. I can't take anything at face value. The reported reasons for doing something, the narration of the story, of what was done and what it affected. And this is one of the reasons I appreciate Tangle so much is it doesn't give me an already digested interpretation. It does a good job of giving me, okay, what are the polarized interpretations?

And then what do I do with them? And that takes a lot of time. I couldn't even begin to do it without the help of Tangle or a place like dispatch, which is another new source that I appreciate, ones that are more centrist and seem to have an ability to hear both sides and not discount them, but to present them in their own light and then critically engage them. And to do that myself, which is what I want to do, because I don't align. I don't wear either jersey. I don't wear the Democratic jersey. I don't wear the Republican jersey. I don't wear the Republican. current Republican MAGA jersey. And so I have to think independently. So all that to say, I don't know that there's like one, two, three issues. I mean, obviously immigration has been a big deal. Obviously, Doge has been a big deal. But I think what has become the biggest deal is

the assertion of presidential power in ways that, whether legal or not, I mean, obviously, recently, the Supreme Court finally ruled on the illegality of sending the National Guard in to Chicago. But that takes so much time. But even whatever their ruling is, it's not in tune with the spirit of the Constitution, which has an active Congress legislating, an active Congress making decisions, making decisions about whether we'll go into war or not. And right now we don't have, we have a polarized legislative branch that can't really make any decisions,

which creates this space for unparalleled executive power. Of course, that exertion of power began with Obama and continued in Biden. and as the case with Trump has been magnified even more. He didn't create it, but he sure is using it. So to me, that's probably the most dangerous, long-term thing, is that he is rewriting how presidents function. And the genius of our Constitution, the thing, the thing.

the thing that kind of keeps diverse people together and keeps them talking to each other is, in part, our checks and balances. And we have a dysfunctional Congress, and it's creating an opportunity for a disproportionately powerful precedent. And even if he's doing the right thing, whatever that might be, he just, he just, does it in the wrong way. And the precedent being set for the next generation is very disturbing from my perspective. So taking the expansion of executive power as the defining issue of the term so far,

relative to your expectations going in, has that been a surprise for you? Yes and no. I mean, it matches his personhood, and for me, character is destiny. And that's why I couldn't vote for Trump. The man does not have a good character. You know, and being a Christian pastor, to me, he is an unrighteous man. And that is not reliable. But I was hoping that his exertion of power would feel a little bit more like the first time.

it seemed to be held in check somewhat. And now, you know, I like Marco Rubio quite a bit. Historically, I think I could be persuaded to like J.D. Vance. But through association with Trump, they're so colored. that I think both of them, I believe, would be more moderate, more intelligent, more discerning, slower moving, more careful, feeling more of an obligation to persuade, which are things that helps our form of government function. They'd be that way more than Trump. But Trump's obviously in charge.

Do you see that changing? I mean, we've seen some moderate resistance in recent months from Congress, from the Republican-controlled Congress, not from within the Trump administration. But I think what maybe what we're seeing is Trump's poll numbers, especially on the economy, are weakening. And people are thinking to head to the midterms. And there may be, you know, changing calculus. there. And I'm curious if you think that we might start to see more of a resistance from within the Republican Party. Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of like Trump's tariffs. I didn't even mention those, but they probably affect my personal life more than anything. He goes like a bazooka. He overshoots. And I imagine that's strategic. It's also an expression. his personality. But when the stock market drops, he responds. Or when China counters, he responds. I mean, he's not stupid. He can be influenced by public opinion. He can be influenced by the market. and he may speak with the same bravado, but I think he can take some actions.

I mean, I keep hoping and praying actually daily that people like Marco Rubio or J.D. Vance and certain members of Congress could speak truth to power, and it would be heard. but you know that's asking for a miracle quite frankly um and so i'm not i'm not expecting it but the sad thing for me is i think trump is likely um ruining the future for the um conservative a Republican Party. Being a centrist, I'm, I'm desiring a shift to the center, whether it's a Republican shift or a Democratic shift or both shifts. But when anyone shifts to the center now, on either side, they get such negative publicity from the base that it disincentivizes any kind of real political bargaining. I mean, to me, politics is people figuring out how to solve our problem

through compromise and creativity. And that kind of politics is a thing of the past. Now it is how you posture, how you exert power, how you maintain a narrative, and get everyone, you can to believe that your narrative is reality. And that is, that is, that leads to polarization, more polarization. And unfortunately, polarization over an extended period of time, in a culture that is losing its sense of there being any ultimate truth or right or wrong, sets us up for a situation more might makes right and whether whichever side it is and we're in we're living through that and and we're in danger um so i'm not real hopeful yeah i i know you know you know we talked over the course of an entire year leading up to the election and then shortly after it and i think that's a similar

sentiment to what you expressed, you know, both about the candidates, the Democratic and Republican candidates, Kamala Harris, Joe Biden originally, and Donald Trump, and then after the election, feeling a lack of hope. And I do wonder how that feeling has evolved, though, now that we have some tangible results of this new administration. Or would you say that it's about the same as you felt in the lead up to the last presidential election? I think it has proven to be what I feared it would be. Probably where I'm different than some people in my position is, but that doesn't convince me to go backward into a support of a cultural drift, which is as much a part of the

problem as Trump's or the MAGA reaction. And so I am more. solidly, I'm not just independent. I'm in opposition. It's kind of a pox on both of their houses. Not because I want that. Oh, I desperately want leadership to rise up, whether it's left center or or right center, just to rise up and have enough charisma, enough strength, enough intelligence, to begin to get meaningful compromise and agreement and unity that outlast the two-year cycle. All we're getting now is we're going to get whiplash at the two-year cycle. I think the house is going to go to the other party, and what we'll get is an even less functional Congress, which won't stop

the president's exercise of power. But it will then lead to increased polarization at the next time. Now, fortunately, Trump cannot run again. But the most promising potential Republican candidates are Marco Rubio and J.D. Vance. And if there's a reaction to Trump, what's the reaction to Trump, what's going to happen. And if a O.C. gets elected, we're just going to get a whiplash and not a resolution. And there will be more instability. There will be less ability to talk to each other and actually govern together. So that's my concern. We talked a lot about Trump and the Republicans, but there is another side to this equation, obviously, which you just alluded to. And I do wonder if there have been any Democrats of any prominence that you've seen respond to the Trump administration that you think, okay, this is a direction that moves the party toward the kind of leadership that I might want to see

out of them, or just out of a political leader in general. One good thing is that Tim Walsh is not going to be in the picture. Yeah, we're talking as I'm home in Minnesota right now, and that's the big news I mean, it's, it's, it's tragic, but almost humorous. The inability, if you will, to call a spade a spade has led to a horrible situation. And it's, it's emblematic of where we were at. I haven't seen a strong centrist. Maybe Kelly in Arizona can become that. But the most visible figures don't give me any confidence that we're going to move forward, and then move more toward compromise, centering political perspective, back to persuasion as a way of doing politics.

But unfortunately, I don't think it's just a question of candidates. I fear it's a question of cultural situation, that we really are that divided. It exists in families now, generational division at a level that is greater than I've ever seen before, to where parents and children can't talk to each other. or there's a there's a feeling like um i couldn't date a democrat or i couldn't date a republican um i can't even talk to them i can't even be in the same room with them we can't have a discussion um as long as that becomes the narrative it is hopeless um because the kind of person you would vote for is extreme then extremely your point of view

and the other side's doing the same thing. And then it's just a question who wins and who is more powerful. And boy, that's not good. No, no, it's definitely not. And I agree. I agree with that diagnosis. I remember in our conversations as well, you discussed some degree of division within your own family. I don't think it was as extreme as, you know, the situation that you were just describing.

but I do think that there was disagreement about who some people in your family were going to vote for. And I am curious how the last year has played out there, if you're comfortable sharing, and just what the political conversations in your family have been like. Well, I mean, my family is kind of in two pieces. I have those who are still in Arizona, who, you know, grew up in the Barry Goldwater world, if you ever can remember him. And they are, some of them hold their nose, but they're voting. for Trump. And some are actually pretty supportive. Now, in my own immediate family, we've moved away from that environment. And we can talk to each other. And we share a common political vision.

I'm right-centered and Republican. Let's say my eldest daughter is left-center and Democrat. but we agree that we can figure out compromises and that politics is the art of compromise and reaching agreement to solve corporate problems, whether we agree with all the details or not. And so we agree about a lot more than we disagree on. And I think one of the things we agree on is we were not pleased with either party. So that's more agreement, even though one would be a Democrat and one would be a Republican. We're kind of old-fashioned Republicans and Democrats who could still cross the aisle and figure out what are we going to do about this. I may have a little bit less trust

in the government making decisions and controlling the market or our lives where my daughter would have more trust in the government making the decision. So we can talk about that. And it depends. So it hasn't, it hasn't divided us. But I think it's because we have a common view of what politics is. And it's not just the exercise of power and the controlling of the narrative. So turning ahead a little bit, not so much a prediction for what's to come or even necessarily.

what you expect to happen. But we've talked about the exercise of executive power as the defining issue of Trump's terms so far. What are you going to be paying attention to, either in that realm or more generally other specific issues? And we talked about Venezuela a little bit. What are you going to be looking to in these next few years to give a sense of the overall trajectory of this administration and our politics more broadly? Well, I think the only hope for the Republican Party, under the influence of Trump, is that those surrounding him, and I think in particular, Marco Rubio and J.D. Vance, can develop a voice that is somewhat distinct. And that may not happen until Trump's out of the picture. But developing a voice, and this would go true, then be true for leaders in Congress. Congress, they have to work with them, but they have to develop a certain independent voice

that begins to model controlling that executive power, especially if they want to get elected into the future. So I think that's what I'd be hoping for and looking for. Otherwise, someone's going to have to come from outside of the party. Unfortunately, no, my mind goes blank, but the governor of Florida. DeSantis. Yeah. What was demonstrated, he lacks a bit of charisma. That's an understatement.

But what was demonstrated is that if you don't get Trump's approval, you don't go anywhere, that's a very difficult environment for the future of the party. So, and I don't know how that will play out once Trump has to step down. And all he has is his voice and not his position. And then just for you personally, I don't know the specifics of the district that you live in in the U.S. House. But when you think about the midterm elections in about 11 months, you know, is the way that you're thinking about the state of our politics and the kind of candidates that you desire to see, do you think that that. will impact your decision-making in the mid-term elections? Are you seeing that as an opportunity to push back on what you haven't like so far? Where I happen to be located in central Pennsylvania, it's this pocket of conservative republicanism in a state, both ends, whether it's Pittsburgh of

Philadelphia, which skew Democrat. So even if I were to say, okay, I'm going to say something to the Republicans by voting against the Republican candidate, it would have no effect. They have enough of a majority. Besides, I'm much more interested in my local politicians and much more in agreement. with them than I am at a national level, so I wouldn't probably vote against them. It's going to be the swing places that get a chance to make that statement. Well, I know we've talked about several heavy topics now, and I think you very reasonably outlined areas of concern for the future,

but I do want to talk a little bit about, you know, the case for optimism, the case for hope that you see. And so I would just pose this as an open-ended question to you to take in whatever direction you like. But what does give you hope when you think about the future? Okay. I mean, my hope does not rest on who gets elected president. I have greater hope in local government than I do in national government. And I am hopeful that Congress can find a voice. That would give me hope.

But ultimately, I think the things that make a society have more to do with issues of character and the ability to be truthful and to engage in meaningful dialogue with people with whom you disagree, but on a basis of a shared value of truth and the ability to actually say there is something that's true and there's something that's false, there is right, and there is wrong, can we reach an agreement and build from there? I think the dethroning of, I consider a kind of soft totalitarianism of DEI, which doesn't allow an alternative voice, a more conservative voice to be spoken in a classroom or on faculty. Those situations, one positive result of the last decade, let's say, or the last few years, has been that that's been pointed out and there's

been an uprising of opposition that hopefully reveals that that that's, that's, something's not right here. And that gives people voice. I'd like to see professors who have had to be silent to get tenure when they disagree, be able simply to speak up

and not necessarily persuade everyone, but be allowed to have a different point of view. I'd like to see newsrooms hire people with whom they disagree and give them voice. What Tangle is doing, and it's getting noticed, is the kind of thing that needs to happen in newsrooms. It's the kind of thing that needs to happen in university context. And this goes

both ways, right or left. I mean, the problem now is that the right is trying to take control and control the narrative equally without engaging in meaningful conversation. That's one of the things I'm saddened about J.D. Vance or Marco Rubio, what I liked about both of them is they were reasonable and intelligent and could articulate their point of view and could engage in a debate in a coherent way. I'm hoping that when Trump moves aside, the ethos of that kind of dialogue and that kind of decision-making process, it can find room to grow, and we could get this thing moving

in a conversational direction. But I'm going to focus my energies, quite frankly, on calling the next generation to not live by lies. Solson Easton talks about this. Be willing to say what you believe and hear what another person believes, and articulate it to give reasons and not to shout down the other person or ignore the other person or discount the other person.

That's on a cultural level. Until we have that, we're not going to make any political progress. So that's where my hope lies. And I'm doing what I can in the spheres I live in to engage in open, meaningful, conversation with my children, with my students, with my neighbors, and sometimes it works. In fact, it works more often than it doesn't, but then I guess I'm fortunate. Well, certainly not a linear path. No.

And that's part of what makes it meaningful, though, as well, I would say. Yeah. Phil, it was really great talking with you again, and I appreciate the time to follow up on this conversation, and I know our audience does too. So thank you for that. And it was just great to speak again. Yeah, it's good to see your face and to interact with you. I hope you're doing well.

Thank you. You too. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Hey, everybody. This is John Loll, executive producer. In early 2024, I spoke with Diana, a 67-year-old retired substitute teacher living in Florida. For most of her adult life, Diana identified as a Republican. But by the time we met her, she described herself as a Republican. an independent, fiscally conservative, socially liberal, and guided above all by empathy for how people's lived experiences shaped their beliefs. Diana has never seen politics in black and

white. Over the years, she voted comfortably for Republican candidates like John McCain and Mitt Romney, but the rise of Donald Trump complicated that sense of certainty. In 2016, Diana reluctantly voted for Trump, despite serious misgivings about his character. It wasn't a vote she felt good about, more a choice between two options that left her feeling uneasy. Four years later, after a presidency she experienced as chaotic and exhausting, she voted for Joe Biden, describing that decision as clearer and emotionally easier. As the 2024 election approached, Diana once again found herself conflicted. She worried about the age and capacity of both Biden and Trump

and felt torn between frustration and concern. She told us that if Nikki Haley had been the nominee, she would have supported her without hesitation. but for much of the year, facing another uncertain and unsatisfying choice, she wasn't sure where she'd land. By the time November arrived, though, Diana felt clear about her decision, and she ultimately cast her vote for Kamala Harris. From our first conversation, it was clear to me that Diana hadn't been pushed to feel disengaged or cynical like so many people in our current political climate. She was thoughtful, reflective, and trying to make the best decision she could in a moment that felt heavy and complicated. Now, one year into President Trump's second term, we're checking back in with Diana to hear how she's been, how she feels about the choice she made in 2024, and how the past year has shaped the way she thinks about politics, leadership, and the future,

what worries her and what still gives her hope. This is my conversation with Diana. All right, we are here with Diana from our previous Undecided Voter series. Diana, how are you doing? I'm doing great. it's been a good year in a lot of ways and politically probably not so good, but doing well, thank you, and I hope you're doing well too. I am.

I am. Thank you so much for asking. Yeah, personal life going great, political things happening in the world. You know, well, this is what we'll talk about today. So I want to start just by catching up with you and, you know, seeing if there's been any, you know, major life updates, anything going on for you, any moves or changes of anything. any kind? No, not really. We did a lot of travel this year, but, you know, we're both still very healthy. You know, really, nothing has really changed. So, you know, as far as our

personal lives and everything, so that's good. Our health is good. Kids are good. Families are good. So that's all good. So it's been fairly stable. Yeah, that's very good. We're coming up on one year since President Trump's inauguration. I believe when we came up to the election, your vote was for Kamala Harris. How do you feel about your vote in that 2024 election? Is there anything that you would change if you could? Well, actually, what I would change is the two people that were running if I could change anything. That's what I would change. But no, I'm, and I wasn't all about thrilled about voting for Harris, but I'm very glad I did not vote for Trump. I wish he was not president. I think I had said a couple of times that I was trying to be hopeful for the future,

but that I was a little bit scared. And let me tell you, scared, I mean, it's not like I'm ready to jump off a cliff or anything, but I mean, things have happened. I never thought things could get this bad. There are things that have happened that have been beyond my wildest dreams that I just never even thought could happen. And it's scary, and it's only been a year. And politically, it seems like it's been a very long year. And it's very scary that we have three more years of this to go. When you look back over the past 12 months, what are some of the main things that stand out to you about Trump's second term? The main thing for me, gosh, well, one of the first things is the whole Mahal movement and

RFK, I cannot believe the things that he has done. The whole ACIP getting, you know, the group that talks about policy and all that has gotten rid of all these experts. That really bothers me. I mean, there's so many things that bother me a lot. This whole immigration thing, the way human beings are being treated, it is like a shrieker. I'm from Florida, throwing that net in the water and pulling everything up.

And maybe some of the things that aren't shrimp get thrown out, maybe some of them end up getting processed with the shrimp. And it's terrible. I don't like the way Trump talks about anybody. He's just, I hate to use these words, but I think he's a horrible human being. He has no morals. He has no ethics. He is, I think his number one concern is himself and how he looks. The fact that he, and he is, he's almost trying to turn himself into a king. It's either his way or the highway. Normally a good executive wants people around him that do, some people that do not agree with him or her so that they can hear every kind of viewpoint. And it's just, I mean, I could go on and on, but I think it's just absolutely terrible. And it does scare me for the

future. It really does. I don't know that our country will ever be the same again, ever. Do you find yourself following the news now as closely as you did before the election, or has that changed at all? No, not really because it's just some of it is just, it's just too much to handle. So I would say pretty much I know what's going on, but do I know about things in depth, not as much as I used to, because it's just too upsetting. There are some things, like there is another newsletter, your local epidemiologist, like I subscribe to that because that's something I've always been interested in as a former dental hygienist. But a lot of it I don't follow maybe as closely because it's like, what's it going to be? It's going to be what he said.

It's going to be what she said. it's going to be he's right, everybody else is wrong. And a lot of it is just to get this to calm down, he comes up with another distraction. And I'm not sure how much Venezuela might be a distraction from Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein is maybe a distraction from the economy. It's just I know I'm not being very eloquent here, but I just think it's terrible.

Has year one, or this year one of Trump's second term, matched your expectations of what you thought he might do going into it? No, and I would have to say they exceeded my expectations to the negative. I thought it was probably going to be pretty rocky, but I never thought it would be like this. It's just, I mean, it's been really bad. I mean, like I said, immigration, what's going on with all that? You know, just invading countries, willy-nilly.

I mean, you know, Maduro, okay, yeah, he was a bad guy, but is that really the way we want to do things? I mean, you know, bombing boats that are out. I just, it's just, I just can't believe the things that he's doing. You know, and even down here, like the Gulf of America, I mean, give me a break. Just some of these stupid things, everything that they're doing against the LGBT community. And a lot of this is, Florida is really just latching on to everything. I mean, the books that are being banned, what is not being allowed to be taught in schools anymore, what has to be taught in schools anymore, it's just, it's really bad. I think a lot of people are afraid to say things that they really think because, you know, you just don't know what's going to happen. And I have no respect for Congress whatsoever. You know, the Republicans just, you know, you know, nobody will stand up to him. They're just, they're more concerned with their jobs than they are with what's going on in the country. Now, there's, there's a couple exceptions. But, you know, I just, I don't even, I don't even consider myself a Republican anymore. I just call myself an independent and just leave it at that. I know, you know, when the next election comes around, I'm going to have to make a decision, one way or the other probably if I want to vote in a primary. But it's, I mean, I was in Europe three times this summer and it was,

it's the first time I ever felt kind of like, no, do I really want to, I mean, it's pretty obvious I'm an American, but do I really want to say this is where I'm from? You know, every time I see a Canadian, I almost want to say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You voted for Harris, you know, almost not regrettably, but just like as the only other option, so that's what you chose to do, and that Trump was not really an option. Do you think that a Harris presidency would have been,

much better than a Trump presidency at this point? Well, I think, you know, I think that's really a hard question to answer because we really don't know. I think there would probably be drama. It would be different drama. But I don't think, now I know the immigration numbers are down. Well, you know, I don't think they would be down with Harris. But quite frankly, I don't think the illegal immigration numbers, we want to decrease the way they've achieved. that, you know. So I don't know that the economy would be doing any better with her. I really don't,

I don't know that things would be better. Some of these things would not be happening. We would not have, I'm sure we would not have invaded Venezuela. We would probably not have, like the shootings we've had, we would not have this whole ice thing that's like a whole, you know, SS division of the United States government, we wouldn't have that. We wouldn't have tariffs. But as a whole, would we be better off? I don't know. I think there would be little dramas, because there's always little dramas. I mean, they're always talking about something. But I think it would be probably more like Biden's presidency with what the dramas are, like files and emails and did she do this? And probably with what's going on in Minnesota now, you know, they'd be all over Tim Walz as vice president. So I think it would be

be more like main line or, you know, regular drama, not Trump, not Trump level drama. Are there any things that, you know, the, the Trump administration has done in terms of policy that, you know, you agree with, or you feel that at least it's, it's the right direction, maybe not the, you know, the way you would like to see it done, but you, you maybe agree with the policy. Well, I think, you know, immigration, we did need to get a handle on that. There are too many illegal people coming into this country. It's not good for us, but it's not good for them either. And I think, you know, if what we need is we need more people at the border. We need more judges to, you know, adjudicate these things. We need things like that. And so, yes, he got the numbers down, but he didn't do it in a very good way. I'm trying to think,

off the top of my head, I can't think of anything, probably when we'll finish this podcast, something that'll come up. You know, tariffs, I don't think that they were necessary, or the way he went about it. Maybe, I think maybe to a certain degree they were good because maybe some countries haven't been paying their fair share.

And like Europe, with NATO and all that, They all seem to be stepping up a little bit more now, but I think it could have been done in a different manner. Things do seem to be doing better in Israel and Gaza a little bit. Things seem to be calmer. So maybe that's good. But I do think some of his ideas are good, but now I can't even think what off the top of my head they are, because I've just been in a very negative mode with all this. But I still think, even with the good things he's done,

well, I guess the only good thing I can tell you from our viewpoint is the stock market's been doing really, really well. So as a retired person, our investments are great. But quite frankly, I would rather, I mean, for the sake of everybody, I would give that up if we could have more peace. if people, more people could afford health insurance, if you didn't have to decide between food and drugs, and if people could walk down the street with worrying about being, without worrying about being arrested, kids could go to school without worrying about, you know, are my parents going to be there when I get home?

And we've seen a fair amount of that in Florida, where they've had to send crisis counselors into schools after an ice raid because, you know, kids' parents are gone. I am curious about that. You know, it's obviously there's, you know, a lot of migrants that would come through Florida, let alone settling and having jobs and careers and families and that sort of thing. What's it been like there, you know, for you, in your observations, how have the people of your community kind of been responding to the ICE raids and the Trump administration's policies? Well, I live in a very heavily pro-Trump area. So basically what people are doing is kind of not talking about it. I think a lot of the really pro-Trump people are, I think a lot of them are kind of like, maybe this isn't quite what we voted for and they don't want to admit it. Some things people have been talking about, you know, we've seen some ice raids, some places.

We've seen, you know, one of the companies that our condo community uses apparently lost some employees through this. And it's just, you know, all of these people that I know or that I see are extremely hardworking people. They do jobs that none of us want to do. And, you know, people say immigrants are taking our jobs. They're not. They're doing what we don't want to do. I want to see somebody come down here and trim bushes and clean up palm trees in 110 degree heat when you have to wear a hat, long sleeves, long pants because of the insects, because of the

heat of the sun, and do this day after day after day, and do it with a smile on your face. You know, these people, there are teachers, there are nurses, they work in our stores, and Cape Coral, we don't have a lot of crime down here. You know, they, they kind of live amongst us. I mean, there's like, you know, different housing areas and everything where it seems like, you know, maybe a lot of Latinos live. And maybe there are smaller houses, but they're neat, they're well kept. And the one thing I really can't understand all of this is, you know, there's all this stuff. We don't want the Muslims. We don't want this. We don't want that. We, you know, most Latinos are Christians. A lot of them are Catholics. They're

Christian. So isn't this the kind of people we would like to come into our country? And they're all, everybody that I see is very hardworking and they appreciate being in this country. And it just, it really hurts me to see this. It's just, we are all human beings. And how can you just do this to another human being? I just don't understand it. Have you had any conversations or hopefully not, but confrontations with any friends or family that perhaps agree with the Trump administration's policies? Well, we've had, there have been some comments. I'm in charge of the Water Aerobics program at R.

And my theory is exercise areas are non-political. We don't talk about it. We're here to have a good time or blah, blah, blah. And there have been occasional something about talking about, wasn't an immigrant, I bet it was an immigrant. And I just kind of, and move on. It's like change the subject or whatever. And I've

said a couple of times, you know, we're not talking about this here. Most people agree with me. I get a couple of people that are like, well, gee, why can't we talk about this year? I mean, after Charlie Kirk was murdered, not that I I think it was horrible. But I don't think he was

the demigod that people put him up to be. He has said some horrible things. I don't think you engage people by saying, prove me wrong or by, you know, by being confrontational. I mean, that's not the way to have a dialogue. And anyway, some of the things you said, and one girl came back one day and she goes, well, have we talked about Charlie Kirk yet? And I said, we're not talking about Charlie Kirk. She goes, well, why not? I said, because this is water aerobics and blah, blah, blah, you know, we're not doing that here. And she was a little upset. But as

As far as immigrants, I know there's been some comments about, yeah, so and so, you know, we heard, you know, this company lost some people and that company lost some people. But I'm not sure how many people are more concerned with, like, how this affects that. Like, you know, well, my house isn't going to get cleaned on a regular basis or whatever. I don't know. But a lot of people do not seem to be very sympathetic, which kind of thinking about what happened in Minnesota, when I think about that, the woman that got shot. I mean, I'm thinking that could have been me. I'm thinking she probably, all she'd ever had in her life was a traffic ticket. She got in the middle of this.

She got flustered. She's scared. All these people are yelling at her. And it's like, what do you do? It's like, it's like you'd almost be like panicked. You know, she says, well, you know, I'm, it puts her window to, you know, I'm going to pull out and I'll probably be like, okay, I'm going to get out of your way. I don't know. What's going on here?

And she hits a guy. And so he shoots her in the head. I mean, that could have been anybody. It could have been your wife dropping your child off. After dropping your child off at daycare, it could have been me. It could have been anybody. And I just, yeah, okay. Next question.

With this in mind, what are some areas of the administration that you're going to be paying attention to in year two? Does something like this have a deeper effect on how you'll be paying attention to what the administration does. And do you have any predictions for how it might play out? I don't, I think we're going to keep seeing more of the same. I mean, you know, the, you know, HHS, I pay particular attention to that. But, I mean, really all. Now, the one thing, Marco Rubio was somebody that I had never had a lot of respect for.

But I think he's been doing, considering he's got to do what Trump tells him to do. think he's been doing a pretty good job, and he seems to be able to moderate him to a certain degree with everything that Trump throws him into. So that's been, you know, I have a lot more respect for him than I did before. So that's good. But I do think, you know, I will be looking at, you know, the State Department because that just has something to do with, you know, everything that's going on in the world. The department, you know, Department of Defense, I, I will never call it the Department of War. Because, again, if that has something to do with everything going on in the world,

I guess probably they're the big three. And I guess whichever one has immigration, I can't remember who's in charge. Oh, I guess is that Homeland Security? Yeah, Homeland Security. Christy Noam. That one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's another one.

one that has to do with all the immigration stuff. But it's just, and it's funny because I don't think, oh, what about, you know, because I don't want to sound like I don't care about this, what I care about them. It's like, there's so much going on that it's hard to like pick one thing or because to me it's like, it's all bad. It's just to what degree bad it is. As we're reflecting on this past year, you know, you mentioned earlier that you feel more strongly now about being an independent than maybe more of your prior Republican roots? Has anything happened in the past year that's moved you closer to that, you know, kind of a more independent political home or has anything caused you to reconsider your identity or values on

that? Well, no, I mean, I've always kind of considered myself an independent, but I was always you know, kind of a little bit more to the Republican side because more fiscally conservative, but more, you know, socially liberal. And I have mainly just stayed Republican because, quite frankly, didn't want to go through everything to change to Democrat. And I feel that if I can vote in the Republican primaries, maybe I can weed somebody out or if there's somebody good, you know, that really would be good and could kind of, you know, get the Republican Party running on a more moderate foot, then, you know, I can do that. And then, of course, the primary, you know, in the general election, I can do whatever I want. So that's kind of why

I've stayed where I am. But I do waffle back and forth. Every time something will happen, you'll be like, that's it. I'm not going to be, that's it. I'm changing my party affiliation. but but there's a lot of things about the democratic party that i that i don't particularly care for either and you know i i just hope with the midterms i really hope um you know that the democrats can you know overtake the republicans and it in at least um at least one and at least the senate or the house one or the other because that's the problem now when you've got you know the the executive branch, the House and the Senate, all kind of, you know, with the same party. It's just not good. I don't think it's good either way. If it's all Democrats, all Republicans,

either way. You know, if all three are one party, I think you need a mix to kind of balance each other out, but it's not happening now. What worries you about the future and what gives you hope? Okay. The one thing that worries me about the future is with what's going on with the whole vaccine thing, I am 69 years old. I'm very healthy. But if it gets to the point where I can't get a flu vaccine or I can't get a pneumonia vaccine or people, children are no longer being inoculated against some of these diseases and I would get them, how easy is it going to be? for me to fight them off. And will I end up, or other people my age, end up dying early because we cannot get the vaccines and children cannot get the vaccines because these vaccines not only keep them healthy, but it helps keep them from passing diseases onto other people. I don't know if you, hopefully you haven't had this, but if like, you know, like if your parents

or somebody would have some type of cancer. And if your children are not vaccinated against certain things, the oncologist will tell you, you cannot see your grandchildren because your immune system is very compromised right now. You know, there's going to be a lot of people going through this. I don't know that maybe polio might come back. Measles might come back rampant. Mumps, I mean, for an adult male to get mumps is a really, really serious thing, you know, that you really don't have to worry about now. But that is,

that is really one of my biggest worries. And I do, that that's my biggest, I would say, real worry. I mean, kind of like worries that are like out there are like, will we end up being taken over by China or Russia or, and I don't worry, you know, will there be a nuclear bomb? some point. You know, now that we've invaded Venezuela, will Russia or somebody try to invade Florida? I mean, you know, we're a peninsula. We're kind of way out there. You know, it would be pretty easy to kind of overtake us down there in southwest Florida by boat or whatever. You know, not so easy for you up in Colorado. But so, but the main thing, the real worry I have is, is the health worry. down the line. And, you know, what's going to happen, you know, to people and to children there.

What would you say your hopes are for the future? My hopes for the future is that the pendulum has swung as far as it's going to go this way, and it, you know, to the right, and that it will start working its way back. Now, that probably means it has to go way to the left before it heads back to the center. But, you know, if you think about physics, it will not go as far to the left as it did to the right. And then when it goes, you know, and it will eventually end up in the center. That's what I'm hopeful about. And I'm also hopeful that because I think there's a lot more people in the middle like me than there are anybody else. I mean, all the people on the left and all the people on the right, they're the ones that get all the

publicity because they make all the noise. And I'm hoping that maybe we will get more middle of the road people to run for Congress. And I'm hoping that, you know, maybe there are more people in Congress that get along and that talk and try to work things out than there are now. So that's my hope for the future. But in spite of that, we read things all the time that there are good things going on in the world. We, you know, and we are making progress, you know, medically, scientifically, environmentally, you know, and we just need to keep all that in mind. All right, Diana.

Well, thank you so, so much for joining us again and catching us up on where you're at. And I hope that everything that you're hoping for happens for us, too. All right, John. Thank you. You take care. You too. All right, that is it for this follow-up episode of The Undecideds. A year ago, these conversations were about choice,

about weighing abstract stakes, imperfect options, and how that decision would shape the future. Today, they're about reflection, about how those choices feel once the election fades into the background, promises become policies, and the consequences begin to shape everyday life. I want to personally thank Claire, Brian, Diana, and Phil for returning to this project,

and for continuing to share their thoughts honestly and generously. And I want to thanks A Hid once again for the time and trust he gave us throughout the original series. The goal of the Undecideds was never to tell you who to vote for or what to think. It was not to judge these undecided voters on what decision they ultimately made. It was to provide perspective, to listen to people examine their own political beliefs, reflect on tough questions, and to make space for opposition and nuance in a political culture

that often leaves very little room for it. Wherever you land politically, I hope these conversations made you feel a little less alone in your uncertainty and a little more curious about the people who see the world differently than you do. I'm Isaac Saul. This is The Undecides, and thanks for listening. The Undecides, this episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by John Long.

Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bikova, Will Kavenk, John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Law. Go to our website.