Tangle - Today's debate: Pramila Jaypal's comments on Israel.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Starting point is 00:01:00 From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about Israel and Representative Pramila Jayapal, who made some comments that got her into a little bit of hot water this week. We're going to be talking about the commentary around those comments and some of what we can take away from it. Before we jump in, though, as always, we'll start off with some quick hits. First up, U.S. service member Travis King is in North Korean custody after crossing the border from South Korea. King joined a tour of the Demilitarized Zone, also known as the DMZ, while being escorted back to the United States to face disciplinary action before intentionally

Starting point is 00:02:11 crossing into North Korea. Number two, Russia has reportedly pulled over 100,000 troops near Ukraine's northeastern border. Number three, 16 people were charged by Michigan's attorney general in an alleged fake elector scheme designed to overturn the state's results in the 2020 election. Number four, Iowa's six-week abortion ban, which had just been signed into law by Governor Kim Reynolds, was struck down by a federal judge. The federal judge presiding over former President Trump's alleged mishandling of classified documents seems skeptical of a request to delay the trial until after the 2024 election. Washington Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal is facing backlash after comments she made calling Israel a racist state. The Congresswoman was appearing at a conference for progressive activists when she called Israel a racist state. Jayapal addressed the audience saying Palestinian people deserve autonomy and the dream of a two-state nation is slipping away.

Starting point is 00:03:21 After video of her comments went viral on social media, the congresswoman issued an apology. I want you to know that we have been fighting to make it clear that Israel is a racist state, that the Palestinian people deserve self-determination and autonomy, that the dream of a two-state solution is slipping away from us, that it is not, that it does not even feel possible. It does not even feel possible. On Sunday, Representative Pramila Jayapal, the Democrat from Washington and the chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, apologized for calling Israel a racist state over the weekend. Jayapal's comments came during a conference for the progressive activist organization Netroots Nation over the weekend. A group of protesters holding Palestinian flags were talking over her,

Starting point is 00:04:17 criticizing a House colleague for refusing to sign a bill that ensures American funding isn't used in the detention of Palestinian children. In an effort to respond and quiet them down, Jayapal said the following, quote, Hey guys, can I say something? Can I say something as somebody that's been in the streets and has participated in a lot of demonstrations? I want you to know that we have been fighting to make it clear that Israel is a racist state, that the Palestinian people deserve self-determination and autonomy, that the dream of a two-state solution is slipping away from us, that it does not even feel possible. While you may have arguments with whether or not some of us on stage are fighting hard enough, I do want you to know that there is an organized opposition on the other side,

Starting point is 00:04:59 and it isn't the people that are on this stage, end quote. The comments were quickly condemned by Democrats and Republicans alike after video of Jayapal's response went viral. More than 40 House Democrats signed a statement condemning her comments, and some Republicans even suggested she step down as chair of the Progressive Caucus. In her apology, Jayapal issued a lengthy statement in which she said she was trying to defuse the situation and apologizes for anyone who was hurt by her words. However, she also largely stood by the sentiment behind her comments. I do not believe the idea of Israel as a nation is racist, she said. I do, however, believe that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's extreme right-wing government has engaged in discriminatory and outright racist policies, and that there are extreme racists driving that policy within the leadership of

Starting point is 00:05:49 the current government. For President Biden, the comments came at a particularly inopportune time. Israeli Prime Minister Isaac Herzog was in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday to meet with Biden and will be addressing Congress on Wednesday. Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Democrat from New York, Ilhan Omar, the Democrat from Minnesota, and Cori Bush, the Democrat from Missouri, have already said they would boycott the address. The meeting comes as Israel is embroiled in domestic turmoil over Netanyahu's proposed legal reforms, which we covered in March. On Tuesday, House Republicans put forward a resolution to reaffirm United States support for Israel, an implicit rebuke of Representative Jayapal.

Starting point is 00:06:28 Today, we're going to break down some reactions from the left and the right, and then my take. First up, we'll start with what the left is saying. Many on the left have said the backlash to Jayapal is an hysterical overreaction and defender right to criticize Israel. Some argue that while Israel may not be a racist state, the government has a racism problem. Others argue it is Republicans who hold the radical position on Israel. Prem Thakur said Democrats were locked in the stupidest fight about whether Israel is racist. A Democrat criticizes Israel for its human rights abuses against Palestinians, and the political establishment in both parties jumps on them like sharks. Sound familiar, Thakur asked? Representative Pramila Jayapal was the latest victim of the

Starting point is 00:07:25 pattern after she called Israel, a state that has committed decades of human rights abuses, engaged in land dispossession and home demolition, upheld separate systems of law, and maintained a militarized police state against Palestinians, a racist state. The Israeli government itself has said its main guiding policy is that the Jewish people have an exclusive and indisputable right to all areas of the land of Israel, something one may call state-sponsored discrimination or indeed racism, Thacker wrote. Organizations from Human Rights Watch to Amnesty International have condemned Israel for its racism, human rights abuses, and systems of apartheid, the kinds of organizations the mainstream press

Starting point is 00:08:05 and political establishment routinely extol. And yet, when it comes to Israel, any politician who frankly echoes such concerns is immediately attacked. In the New York Times, Michelle Goldberg called it a hysterical overreaction. Jayapal made a significant political error, Goldberg said. She called Israel a racist state instead of simply a state that has racist leaders who treat many of their people under their authority as second-class citizens or worse, on account of their ethnic and religious background. It's a reminder that no matter how far Israel veers from liberal democratic norms, in America it is still protected by a thick lattice of taboos. Jayapal was wise to clarify

Starting point is 00:08:44 her words, as they could have been interpreted as ideological opposition to Zionism, which does not reflect Jayapal's views. Like most Democrats, she wants to see a Jewish state alongside a Palestinian one. Today, there are nearly equal numbers of Jews and Palestinian Arabs living in Israel and the occupied territories, Goldberg said. For Palestinians living under occupation, there is no pretense of equal rights. They are subject to regular land seizures and home demolitions and constant restrictions on their freedom of movement. But even Palestinian citizens of Israel face legal as well as social discrimination. Israel's Palestinian citizens, for example, cannot obtain citizenship for spouses who are from the West Bank or Gaza,

Starting point is 00:09:24 for example, cannot obtain citizenship for spouses who are from the West Bank or Gaza, dooming thousands of couples to live separately. In the Washington Post, Ishan Tharoor said it is Republicans, not Democrats, who are radical on Israel. The view that the Israeli state is racist is an assessment arguably supported by the world's two most prominent human rights organizations, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, which both now define the status quo of Israeli rule over the Palestinians in the occupied territories, as well as the discriminatory policies against Palestinian citizens of Israel as akin to apartheid, Thoreau said. Nevertheless, Jayapal found herself on the back foot, with a cavalcade of denunciations aimed at her and the handful of liberal lawmakers who spoke up in her defense.

Starting point is 00:10:06 On Tuesday, Republicans in the House forced a vote on a pro-Israel resolution that affirmed the United States' staunch support for the country and declared that it is not a racist or apartheid state. The irony is that Jayapal, who supports a two-state solution for Israelis and Palestinians and opposes the expansion of Israeli settlements, represents what's becoming a more mainstream position, certainly among Democratic voters, he said. But Republican lawmakers in Washington have seemingly yoked their agenda to the far-right Israeli settler movement and influential right-wing pro-Israel groups in the United States. The GOP mainstream has long soured on the two-state solution and can't countenance any talk of rights for millions of Palestinians living under military occupation because they

Starting point is 00:10:49 aren't even willing to recognize the fact of the occupation. All right, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right has criticized Jayapal, saying the Democratic Party is becoming more anti-Israel. Many argue that her comments aren't just offensive, but wrong. Some say her positions on Israel and India expose her hypocrisy. National Review's editors said the boycott Israel movement has come to Congress. As the base of the Democratic Party has become increasingly hostile toward Israel, its leaders have sought to draw a distinction between opposing specific policies of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government

Starting point is 00:11:34 and opposing the nation of Israel itself. But it's getting harder and harder for that distinction to hold, the editors said. At least five progressive Democrats will boycott Isaac Herzog's speech. Jayapal released a half-hearted apology, trying to frame her comments as really meant for Netanyahu. But the clarification amounted to the idea of Israel isn't racist in theory, but it is in practice. Democrats will continue to downplay these developments, as President Biden will do when he meets with Herzog this week, the editor said. But it's becoming more challenging to put the genie back in the bottle. In 2013, Democrats said they sympathize more with Israelis than Palestinians, 55% to 19%. When the question was asked this year, 49% of Democrats said they sympathize with the Palestinians compared with just 38% who said Israelis. Though Democratic

Starting point is 00:12:22 leaders will sweep Jayapal's comments under the rug and dismiss the squad as a small and insignificant group within the House, it's hard to ignore the broader anti-Israel trend within the party. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:12:57 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province.

Starting point is 00:13:23 Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. In the Washington Examiner, Jack Elbaum said the statements are simply wrong. Is it true that Israel is a racist state? Well, the short answer is no. In Israel, all citizens have full civil and political rights. Consequently, Arab Israelis vote in elections, and their parties currently hold 10 seats in Israel's parliament. A few years ago, an Arab party was part of the ruling coalition, and one of Israel's Supreme Court justices is an Arab Muslim. Since 2011, thanks to government programs, Arab representation in Israeli universities has risen

Starting point is 00:14:05 by more than 75 percent, bringing the proportion quite close to their proportion of the total population. In these universities and in the workforce, Jews and Arabs learn and work side by side. It may feel pointless to even say any of this, but the idea Israel is literally an apartheid state practicing American-style Jim Crow is not uncommon, Elbaum said. Additionally, survey data show that when countries are ranked by the proportion of their citizens that either, one, do not want to be neighbors with somebody of a different race, or two, have witnessed racism, Israel does not make the list. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, the list is filled with all of the countries that surround Israel, such as Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, and Palestine, which has the second highest percentage of residents that prefer not to live

Starting point is 00:14:49 next to somebody of a different race. In the media line, Rabbi Abraham Cooper called out Jayapal's alleged hypocrisy. Just three weeks ago, Jayapal went to great lengths to explain why she would, in fact, meet with India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to Washington, including at his June 9th speech before another joint Senate and House of Representatives meeting. It is no secret that Prime Minister Modi is a deeply controversial figure. Until 2014, he was denied a visa to the U.S. for severe violations of religious freedom. He leads the Hindu Nationalist Party and has been accused of tolerating and encouraging anti-Muslim views and policies. Jayapal, who was born in India, said despite these problems, it was vital for her to attend Modi's speech and his other U.S. events. Modi's visit, she explained,

Starting point is 00:15:35 was a critical moment for engagement between flawed democracies. Fair enough, Cooper said. Like India, however, Israel is also a flawed democracy. It has its problems, just like other democracies worldwide. Congresswoman Jayapal chose to critically engage with the flawed democracy she has personal ties with, but to shun interaction with the flawed democracy that Jewish Americans, along with many others, feel strongly about. All right, that is it for the left and the right is saying, which brings us to my take. So unsurprisingly, I doubt I'll be able to give a broadly satisfying takeaway on one of the world's most complicated and controversial issues in a few hundred words. I also think it's necessary to always call out my own biases when covering Israel. I am Jewish. I went on birthright. I lived in Israel and Yeshiva for a period of time. I have a lot of baggage that

Starting point is 00:16:37 comes with this. But I think there are a few points worth making here. For starters, I think Jayapal was wrong to describe Israel as a racist state, the same way she'd be wrong to describe the U.S. or India as a racist state. Israel's government has issues with racism, perhaps even more than we do, which we'll get to in a moment. The arguments from Goldberg under what the left is saying and Elbaum under what the right is saying can and should both coexist as true in people's minds. As Goldberg notes, Israel's 1948 Declaration of Independence promises to uphold the full and social political equality of all its citizens without distinction of race, creed, or sex. This goal is inherently more

Starting point is 00:17:17 difficult when the state that holds it was being created specifically to be a home for one stateless people who by and large have the same religion. In my opinion, it can only be done by turning many others into refugees. But, Goldberg notes, Israel's most prominent leader today does not even subscribe to this idea enshrined in its constitution. Israel is not a state of all its citizens, Netanyahu said in 2019. According to the basic nationality law we pass, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people and only it. Self-evidently, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza do not have the same rights as citizens in Israel. And within Israel, Palestinian citizens are deprived of some major privileges, like getting citizenship for spouses

Starting point is 00:18:01 in the West Bank. That is to say nothing of the societal racism they face, which is significant. It's also true that there seems to be more and more ethnic nationalists within Israel's government, like Itamar Ben-Gvir, the security minister who has embraced the explicit anti-Arab racism of his mentor, Rabbi Meir Kahane. This is not a racism controversy like the one we get from the government in the United States when an aging member of Congress uses the word colored instead of the expression person of color. This is racism like Ben-Gvir exalting a mass murderer of Arabs. And yet, at the same time, Elbaum is right that all citizens in Israel have full civil and political rights under the law. Arab Israelis

Starting point is 00:18:45 vote and have seats in parliament. They sit on the Supreme Court. They go to universities and work side by side with Israeli Jews. There's also empirical data like the surveys Elbaum references that show Israel is surrounded by states with citizens who are much more intolerant of other races. The important point here is that this whole thing is a bit of a head fake. It's easy to defend Israel from the criticism that it is a racist state because the citizens of Israel are treated mostly equally under the law. But what Israel does to its own citizens isn't what creates so much upset. It's what it is doing in the West Bank and Gaza. It is much harder to look at Israel's extremist wing in its government

Starting point is 00:19:23 alongside its state-sanctioned oppression in the Palestinian territories and then claim that the Israeli government does not have a racism issue. It has, and it does. We should be able to acknowledge that without wrongly pretending it is the most racist or immoral country on earth, and without pretending it always acts morally. To that end, so much of this really is a hyperventilating freakout over very little. As far as I can tell, Jayapal holds fairly standard left-of-center

Starting point is 00:19:50 views on Israel. She is critical of its right-wing government, she supports a two-state solution, and she thinks Israel is the strongman occupier of the surrounding Palestinian territories. The news cycle over her comments does a better job illustrating how off-limits harsh criticism of Israel still is than illustrating her sincerely held beliefs on what Israel is and should strive to be. As Goldberg wrote, a state's leaders and policies can be bigoted without the state itself being irredeemable. That is basically Jayapal's stance. All right, everybody, that is it for my take today, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Bruce in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Bruce said, I appreciate your comments on third parties. I would vote for any relevant third party, but am I mistaken when I say that a third

Starting point is 00:20:41 party is irrelevant if it cannot garner more than half of the electoral college. I believe that if one party cannot get half plus one of the electoral college, then the House and Senate decide on the president and vice president. If that is the case, no serious Democrat or Republican would vote for a non-party member. Under present rules, it would be almost impossible to elect someone for the White House that is not part of the inept two-party system. So yeah, you're correct. If no presidential candidate receives a majority of the electoral college vote, the outcome of the election is decided by the Senate and the House. I wouldn't say that any third party that fails to get that number is irrelevant, though you do raise an interesting point. If an election is sent to a Congress filled with Democrats and Republicans to decide the winner, then that wouldn't bode well for the third party. That point leads into one of the stronger criticisms I've come across about third parties.

Starting point is 00:21:33 They have almost no impact on local and state elections. And this criticism actually contains two other more specific criticisms. First, this lack of performance locally shows no real platform or political philosophy that has traction or support amongst politically engaged Americans. Second, due to this lack of engagement, any third-party presidential candidate amounts to no more than just an attention-seeking spoiler. While I think these are strong criticisms, I think they apply more to how third parties operate rather than if they should. As I've written before, a more ideological diversity in our democracy is a good thing. The Green and Libertarian parties have been pretty well known for decades now, so it seems to me if they would focus more on local or small state races where the electorate is sympathetic to their platforms, then they could

Starting point is 00:22:19 build more of a base. And if they have a strong base, they can win some seats in Congress. And if they win some seats in Congress, they would have a chance to win a presidential election with under 270 votes. All right, that is it for your questions answered, which brings us to our under the radar section. Scammers are using Google search results to target desperate travelers trying to rebook canceled flights. The malvertising is a growing problem for search engines to target desperate travelers trying to rebook canceled flights. The malvertising is a growing problem for search engines and has left travelers hoping to avoid long lines at kiosks on the phone with scammers hoping to get their credit card information. We do not tolerate this misleading activity and are constantly monitoring and evolving our platforms to combat fraud and create a safe environment for users and businesses, Google

Starting point is 00:23:04 said in a statement. Scammers changing the contact information of major companies aren't just targeting airlines, but other travel companies like car rental agencies. The Washington Post has the story and tips on how to spot it. All right, next up is our numbers section. The percentage of Americans who view the Israeli people favorably, according to Pew, is 67%. The percentage of Americans who view the Israeli government favorably is 48%. The percentage of Americans who view the Palestinian people favorably is 52%. The percentage of Americans who view the Palestinian government favorably is 28%.

Starting point is 00:23:44 The percentage of Americans who view the Palestinian government favorably is 28%. The percentage of Israeli Jews aged 18 to 34 who now support a two-state solution is 20%, according to the United States Institute of Peace. The percentage of Palestinians who reject Israel's claims of historic national connection to the land is 93%. And the percentage of Israeli Jews who reject Palestine's claims of historic national connection to the land is 93%. And the percentage of Israeli Jews who reject Palestine's claims of historic national connection to the land is 68%. All right, that is it for our numbers section. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Food insecurity is a concern in many places across the country, and the Denver area is no exception. We're seeing more need now than ever before.

Starting point is 00:24:25 This is hitting the food bank of the Rockies budget hard, said Adida Desai, the chief marketing officer at the food bank of the Rockies. But Denver, along with many other American cities, is receiving a helping hand from a philanthropist traveling across the country this summer, Taylor Swift. Throughout her Heiress tour, Swift has been donating to food banks in cities where she's performing, taking time recently before her two sold-out Colorado shows to donate enough to the Denver Food Bank to allow it to purchase 75,000 meals. We've been able to meet the increased demand thanks to the generosity of individuals like Taylor Swift, Asai said. Her gift will help fuel our work across the Rockies and allow us to

Starting point is 00:25:05 distribute more food to our communities. KUSA has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, please go to readtangle.com and consider becoming a member. Don't forget, we have live tickets on sale right now for our live event in Philadelphia, August 3rd. We've got a YouTube channel pumping out fresh content, Tangle News on YouTube. Please go check them both out and keep this project going. We'll be right back here, same time tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Peace. This podcast was produced by Diet 75. For more on Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. Thank you. working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions.

Starting point is 00:26:53 To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season?

Starting point is 00:27:29 Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Tangle - Today's debate: Pramila Jaypal's comments on Israel.

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