Tangle - Trump's associates plead guilty in Georgia.

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

The guilty pleas in Georgia. In less than a week, three of Trump’s former associates have agreed to cooperate with prosecutors in the Georgia election interference case and pleaded guilty to charges brought by District Attorney Fani Willis.You can read today's podcast ⁠⁠here⁠⁠, today’s Under the Radar story ⁠⁠here⁠⁠, and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠⁠here⁠⁠. You can also check out our latest YouTube videos, a recording of the “My Take” from Tuesday’s Israel piece ⁠⁠here⁠⁠ and an interview with Christopher Dowling-Magill about conversion therapy here.Today’s clickables: Quick hits (0:52), Today’s story (3:02), Right’s take (6:37), Left’s take (10:16), Isaac’s take (13:54), Listener question (18:38), Under the Radar (21:43), Numbers (22:29), Have a nice day (23:21)You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the guilty pleas in the Georgia election interference case, what they mean for former President Trump, and what to expect going forward. Before we jump in, though, as always, we'll kick it off with some quick hits. First up, House Majority Whip Tom Emmer, the Republican from Minnesota, abruptly dropped out of the speaker race just hours after becoming the nominee. House GOP Vice Chair Mike Johnson,

the Republican from Louisiana, was nominated to replace him Tuesday night. Number two, dozens of state attorneys general sued Metta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, for lying about how addictive and damaging their products were for children and teenagers. Number three, the total number of legal abortions in the U.S. increased in the year after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. Number four, eight people were killed and 68 were injured after a super fog led to a 168-car pileup on an interstate in Louisiana. And number five, Israel carried out an estimated 400 airstrikes in Gaza yesterday, while planned ground invasion is reportedly delayed to navigate more hostage releases.

Sidney Powell, who was a lawyer for former President Trump, a campaign lawyer on the campaign side, she has just pled guilty before Fulton County Superior Court Judge Scott McAfee to six counts of conspiracy to commit intentional interference with the performance of election duties. Tonight, a stunning turn for former President Trump in the Georgia election tampering case. Now, a second lawyer who worked to overturn Trump's 2020 loss, suddenly pleading guilty and agreeing to testify against him. I've been informed that there is a change of plea. Kenneth Chesborough pleading guilty 24 hours after Sidney Powell admitted her role in the sprawling conspiracy. And then there were three. Jenna Ellis is now the latest Trump attorney or former Trump attorney to flip in the Georgia election subversion case.

She pleaded guilty to one count of aiding and abetting false statements. She's also going to cooperate with prosecutors who are recommending five years of probation and for her to pay $5,000 in restitution. In less than a week, three Trump-aligned lawyers have agreed to cooperate with prosecutors in the Georgia election interference case and pleaded guilty to charges brought by District Attorney Fannie Willis. A quick reminder, in August, Willis indicted former President Donald Trump and 18 co-conspirators for allegedly participating in a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of an election. The 98-page indictment detailed 41 counts of criminal charges, including conspiracy to commit forgery, influencing witnesses, computer theft, and filing

false documents. Willis used Georgia's Racketeer Influence and Corrupt Organizations Act, also known as RICO, as the foundation for the indictment. The first of Trump's lawyers to file a guilty plea was Sidney Powell, who helped spread baseless claims about the election being stolen via Dominion Voting System's machines. She pleaded guilty to six misdemeanor counts last week, accepting a sentence of six years of probation for six counts of conspiracy to commit intentional interference with performance of election duties. duties. Two days later, Kenneth Chesbrough, who helped plan the effort to deploy fake Trump electors in Georgia and other swing states, pleaded guilty to a single felony charge of conspiracy and was sentenced to five years of probation in exchange for his cooperation. He had been charged with seven felonies, including a state racketeering charge. Both would have faced lengthy prison sentences if found guilty. Then, on Tuesday, high-profile

former Trump lawyer Jenna Ellis, who claimed she was part of the elite strike force team that was going to overturn the election, pleaded guilty to a felony charge of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She was sentenced to five years of probation, $5,000 in restitution, and 100 hours of community service. In a tearful statement to the court, she apologized for her conduct. If I knew then what I know now, I would have declined to represent Donald Trump in these post-election challenges, Ellis said. I look back on this experience with deep remorse. For those failures of mine, Your Honor, I've taken responsibility already before the Colorado Bar, who censured me, and I now take responsibility before this court and apologize to the people

of Georgia. Scott Hall, a bail bondsman charged with helping Powell breach voting equipment and data at a Georgia election office, also pleaded guilty in the case last month. Powell, Chesbrough, and Ellis pleading guilty marks a major turning point in the case and opens the door for Willis to access Trump's inner circle in a way that court watchers were unsure she'd be able to. In a separate case, the federal inquiry into Trump's actions after the election being led by special counsel Jack Smith, ABC News also reported that former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows was granted immunity to testify under oath. However, Meadows' lawyers pushed back on public notions that he had flipped on Trump. After Powell pleaded guilty, Trump claimed she

was never his attorney, despite the fact she served on his legal team in 2020. Trump announced her addition to the team in a public social media post on November 15th, 2020. Powell and Trump both maintained that she never signed an engagement agreement to be his attorney. Trump said Ellis' plea deal was too bad, but he didn't know anything about it, and emphasized we're totally innocent of everything, that's political persecution is all it is. His lawyer said the plea deal was evidence Willis was using the RICO charges, which carry a five-year minimum sentence, as a bargaining chip to force people into plea deals. Today, we're going to examine some reactions to the plea deals from the right

and the left, and then my take. First up, we'll start with what the right is saying. The right is mixed in their reactions to the multiple plea deals, with some acknowledging it is ominous for Trump and others arguing it points to a weak case. Some suggest the testimony from Ellis, Chesbrough, and Powell could deal a fatal blow to Trump's defense in this case. Others criticize D.A. Willis for overcharging defendants to compel them to flip on Trump. In National Review, Andrew C. McCarthy said these plea bargains point to a wildly overcharged case. Fannie Willis has hyped her prosecution of Donald Trump and 17 others as a racketeering conspiracy case depicting the former president as the head of an organized crime enterprise, McCarthy said. I have contended that

Willis does not have a RICO case under Georgia's analog to the Federal Racketeer Influence and Corrupt Organizations Act of 1971. The throng Willis has indicted did not function as an identifiable criminal enterprise as defined in RICO, and she lacks a single criminal objective as to which she can say all 19 defendants agreed. Because all four guilty plea defendants are now cooperating with the state, the lack of a RICO plea is telling. Ordinarily, prosecutors require the first cooperators in a major case to plead guilty to the major charges, offering them sentencing leniency in exchange for their testimony against other defendants, McCarthy said. But not only have none of Willis's

cooperators conceded that there was a RICO conspiracy, much less pled guilty to it, none of them faces even a single day of imprisonment. The Wall Street Journal editorial board wrote about the Trumpian tragedy of Jenna Ellis. The press is playing up the legal significance of the plea deals as if Ms. Ellis can now release the kraken on Mr. Trump to steal Ms. Powell's indelible 2020 catchphrase. But it's difficult to know how much dirt these attorneys really have on the former president, and some of his potential defenses are legal, not factual, the board said. D.A. Willis's legal theories remain untested, and if she overcharged her case,

it could redound to Mr. Trump's political benefit, which is what he most cares about. The plea deals by his former loyalists underscores how Mr. Trump's tantrum after the 2020 election harmed everyone who has been associated with it. That includes the country and more poisonous politics, the Republican Party and lost elections, media hosts and lost reputations, and the many former advisors who find themselves in the legal dock. The tragedy of Ms. Ellis is that she followed Mr. Trump's Pied Piper claims and now finds her career ruined, while the man she believed in uses what she now admits are falsehoods to march again to the White House. In The Federalist, Margo Cleveland argued Powell's plea deal proves D.A. Willis went nuclear to get Trump. Willis basically extorted a guilty plea from Powell by charging her with seven serious felonies. With a jury called from deep blue Fulton County, the risk of a conviction on even one of

the felony counts and the consequential loss of her law license would be just too great of a chance for any defendant to take, especially when the plea only involved misdemeanors that would be discharged from Powell's record following probation. Under these circumstances, it would have been lunacy for Powell to have rejected the plea offer. But what reason would Willis have to offer such a favorable deal? None, if Willis truly believed Powell committed the felonies for which she was charged and Willis had the evidence to prove them, Cleveland wrote. The answer seems clear. Powell hadn't committed the felonies and Willis never thought she had, but she overcharged Powell to add gravitas to the supposed election conspiracy claims and to make an offer for a first offender misdemeanor plea deal, an offer too good to refuse.

Alright, that is it for the rightist thing, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left believes the plea deals are a sign that Trump is losing the case in Georgia. Some celebrate that Ellis, Chesbrough, and Powell are finally admitting to the falsehoods they pushed about the 2020 election. Others expect more defendants in the case to take similar deals as their trial dates near. In the Washington Post, Philip Bump explored the layers of falsehoods that led to Ellis' deal. The fundamental failure of Donald Trump's effort to support the results of the 2020 presidential election was that it was predicated on complete nonsense. Trump and his attorneys

seized upon any allegation of fraud or any analysis that presented an opportunity for skepticism about the results and offered them up as valid, even in many cases after it had been made obvious that the claims were not valid, Bump said. What's important to recognize, though, is that this credulousness almost certainly wasn't limited to rank-and-file Trump voters. It clearly extended, in most cases, to Trump himself, to Giuliani, and to Ellis. As Trump attempted to contest the 2020 election result, dubious claims from unreliable actors were used to amplify questions about fraud. Those questions were then used to present those and subsequent claims as reliable. Ellis was simply one spigot for the misinformation, one who now claims she did so unconsciously. In representing Trump, she helped add layers to this

house of cards. The core problem, again, was that it was almost all nonsense, that almost none of it was credible, but credibility wasn't the goal, utility was. In the Los Angeles Times, Dennis Aftergut said Chesbrough and Powell's deals are dire for Donald Trump. The two pleas show Willis's strategy is unfolding precisely as designed, working up the ladder with testimony from the lesser participants to the top of the defendants in the alleged conspiracy, Aftergut wrote. The plea deals for Chesbrough and Powell matter for two reasons. First, both lawyers stood on high rungs of the latter, very close to the top. Second, avoiding a trial for either is a win for Willis. Powell has first-hand testimony to give about Giuliani, while Chesbrough worked with both Eastman and Giuliani, each of

whom worked intimately with Trump. With these deals, Chesbrough and Powell seem destined to testify against Trump, and the odds that Eastman and Giuliani plead skyrocket. If that happens, Trump's prospects of escaping a conviction could dim considerably. Chesbrough and Powell will face personal consequences for pleading guilty, but their deals are even worse news for Giuliani, Eastman, and Trump. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Giuliani, Eastman, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases.

What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. In Slate, Robert Katzberg suggested the plea deals will torch Trump's planned defense. Now that both Chesbrough and Powell are cooperating witnesses, the pressure on Giuliani and Eastman to plead and cooperate is exponentially higher. That the significant cooperation under discussion

involves four of Trump's attorneys underscores the reality that the former president's regularly touted defense that he was relying on the good faith guidance of his attorneys during the attempted coup was, and is, nothing more than self-serving fantasy, Katzberg said. Long before the Powell and Chesbrough deals were announced, the absurdity of expecting any of Trump's attorney's testimony to be anything but harmful to his cause was made crystal clear by Michael Cohen. More recently, when Trump lawyer Evan Corcoran was forced to testify against the former president based on the crime fraud exception to the attorney client privilege, the testimony he gave and the internal memos he was compelled to produce

proved not to be shields for the former president, but swords to be wielded against him, as it is with Powell and Chesbrough, and so it will be with others. All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So I have to admit that a part of this is quite gratifying. Just as a big chunk of you found my work recently through my writing on the attacks in Israel, many of you found Tangle through some of my reporting and tweeting about claims of election fraud. I started tracking allegations of fraud before the first vote was cast in the 2020 election, and I kept up with it through the election in real time. I went on radio shows offering cash rewards to guests who could call in and prove

election fraud to me. I wrote several tangled newsletters about claims of election fraud from the immediate claims in the days after the election all the way up to the 2000 Mules documentary. I've debated the issue on stage and continued to track new claims as they pop up. Throughout that time, I've taken a tremendous amount of heat, not just from Jenna Ellis, who once mocked me on Twitter when I fact-checked her claims about fraud, but also Sidney Powell, whose baseless allegations about voter fraud were so persuasive to so many readers of Tangle that I lost hundreds of subscribers when I explained how I knew they were false. Some of our readers left Tangle because of Ellis' and Powell's lies. It was, without question, one of the most difficult

times of my career. I knew what was true and what wasn't, and I tried to communicate it to my conservative readers who trusted my opinion but desperately wanted my version of events to be wrong. I convinced some, I didn't convince others who still stuck around, but I lost many. So, seeing Ellis apologize in court nearly three years after trying to publicly drag me for my claims feels good. It is affirming. It brings a little closure. Doubly so for Powell, who has now admitted in various ways that her claims were false, and whose story has been undermined by news outlets like Fox News that were forced to concede in court they knew her claims were false. A lot of this is personal for me, and I'm really trying not to indulge too

much in the self-satisfaction. But much more important than scoring the past is soberly considering the future implications. To that end, I thought Andrew McCarthy's observations, under what the right is saying, were astute. Jenna Ellis' plea is chin-scratching. She did not plead guilty to the crime she was initially charged for, and Willis instead introduced a new single-count charge accusing her of aiding and abetting false statements and writings, that is, she assisted more senior counsel in providing false information to state officials. This is a condemnable act, but it is an ocean away from a RICO charge. This kind of development lends credence to what many conservatives said early on about this massive indictment, that Willis reached for more serious crimes than she could prosecute as a cudgel to

force some people to flip with the aim of doing legal and political damage to Trump. So while it was satisfying to see Ellis admit to lying or not doing due diligence as she evasively put it in court, I think McCarthy is also right that it's wishful thinking that the cooperation of Ellis, Powell, and Chesbrough is sure to sink Trump. Again, McCarthy said, none of the defendants has pled guilty to racketeering nor provided any indication that Trump and his remaining co-defendants violated RICO. However, this is still bad news for Trump. We know from other reporting that Powell was the one who suggested the ridiculous idea to seize voting machines, an idea Trump actually rejected in a December 2020 meeting. But what else was discussed? What other conversations was she privy to? What ideas did she suggest that Trump and his team actually

acted on? If she had that kind of access a month after the election and the heat of the fight to overturn the results, prosecutors are likely to find more out with her cooperation. Chesbrough appears to have had even more access, and while Ellis was less integral to the results, prosecutors are likely to find more out with her cooperation. Chesbrough appears to have had even more access, and while Ellis was less integral to the team, she was certainly involved. Their information and testimony is a real threat to Trump. The public revelation that three lawyers close to Trump are now conceding some kind of wrongdoing and admitting to false statements about the election should, but probably won't, convince some of the 69% of Republicans who still

think Biden's win was not legitimate. Regardless of what happens to Trump, I remain hopeful that this case will clear some fog about the false claims this election was stolen. For now, though, I still have many of the same questions I had two months ago. This case is incredibly complicated and totally without precedent. Some of the charges in the indictment seem obviously criminal to me, while others do not. These plea deals further complicate that reality. Logistically, I have no idea how Willis will navigate the case in election season, nor get all these people in court. And don't forget, Trump promised that part of his defense would be proof the election was actually stolen, a defense he has yet to reveal and almost assuredly won't attempt to use. There's a lot more to come before we know where this is headed,

so I'll remain patient on any prognostication. For now. Alright, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from HPM in Kingsport, Tennessee. HPM said, were the results of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act effective? Did it cost the government money or did it return more than it paid out in tax reduction? So I'll give you the simple answer first. The 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, TCJA, did not pay for itself. Here's what TCJA did do. It reduced the tax rate in almost all income brackets. It lowered the average federal tax rate from 20.8% to 19.3% for all filers, from 1.2% to 0% for the bottom 20% of earners, and from 31.7% to 30.2% for the top 1%. It also eliminated personal

exemptions and the individual mandate of the Affordable Care Act, increased the child tax credit, simplified business filings and created incentives for new small business development, and a host of other things to decrease taxation and encourage more investment in business. The TCJA was successful in cutting levels of taxation across the board, but was criticized as disproportionately favoring the wealthy. Critics point to a few features of the reform to make this claim. It lowered the income threshold for deducting medical expenses and allowed anyone at any income level to itemize their deductions, which made refunds more favorable for high earners. It also raised the floor for the alternative minimum tax and raised the threshold for the estate tax, both of which benefit high-income earners.

But it didn't only benefit the rich. Personally, I was making about $60,000 per year when the cuts were passed, and I saw an immediate increase in my take-home pay, which made me a fan. All of these changes, except for the elimination of the ACA's individual mandate, are set to expire by 2025, which means that more holistic answers will be available and probably more widely published by then. However, we have enough data to draw a reasonable conclusion now. According to the Brookings Institution, the TCJA ended up raising less tax revenue than the administration projected and stimulated the economy less than expected. Despite the tax cut, a multi-hundred billion dollar budget deal in 2018,

and favorable economic movements in oil prices and oil-related investments, GDP growth in 2018 was only 2.5 percent, below the administration's estimate of 3 percent, according to Brookings. And while the Brookings Institution has a reputation for generally unbiased reports, you don't have to take their word for it. You can take the Wall Street Journal's. The bottom line, the journal said, it seems clear the tax cuts contributed to economic growth, but not enough to pay for themselves, as many backers promised, according to their 2020 report. Does this mean it was a bad policy or not worth it? That is a different question. For plenty of people, the upside is still there, and I could certainly make a case it was still a net positive

as a piece of legislation. But I think it is fair to say it was not effective in the sense that it didn't do exactly what its backers said it would, and the data seems clear it did not return more than it paid out in tax reduction. Alright, that is it for your questions answered, which brings us to our under the radar section. Hong Kong is planning to give $2,500 stipends to new parents and cut taxes on home purchases to encourage more children for its shrinking population. Hong Kong has the lowest fertility rate in the world. 140,000 working age people fled between 2020 and 2022. Its total population is 7.4 million. The decision to give government handouts to encourage more childbirth and stimulate the

economy could be a preview of how other nations, including the United States, where fertility rates have also declined, navigate the same issue. Semaphore has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The number of dead people that Rudy Giuliani alleged voted in Georgia, a false statement that Jenna Ellis was charged with aiding and abetting, was 10,000. The number of people under the age of 18 Giuliani alleged voted in Georgia was 66,000. That was another false statement that Jenna Ellis was charged with aiding and abetting. 39% is the percentage of Republican-aligned adults who say there is solid evidence proving the election was not legitimate. The percentage

of Republican adults who say it is merely their suspicion that the election was not legitimate is 30%. And the percentage of Republican-aligned adults who say Biden legitimately won the election is 29%. Finally, the percentage of all Americans who say that they are just a little or not at all confident that elections will reflect the public's will is 58%. And last but not least, our Have a Nice Day section. Hemant Bekal, a ninth grader at W.T. Woodson High School in Annandale, Virginia, was awarded a $25,000 grand prize for winning the 2023 3M Young Scientist Challenge. His winning submission?

A treatment for melanoma in the form of a bar of soap. Beckel said he was inspired to study accessible skin cancer treatments when he discovered that the recovery rate of melanoma in the U.S. compared to sub-Saharan Africa is 99% to 20%. By combining simple compounds in the soap that kept costs low, he was able to create a product that stimulates the activity of dendritic cells, which act as protectors of skin cells. Beckel's innovative solution has won him the country's premier middle school science contest, according him the prestigious title of America's top young scientist. Good News Network has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description.

All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, please go to readtangled.com and consider becoming a member. We'll be right back here same time tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by John Law. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, Thank you. We'll see you next time. dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases.

What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed.

Learn more at FluCellVax.ca.