Tangle - Updates on the Department of Government Efficiency.

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

The Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), led by Elon Musk, has gained access or attempted to gain access to numerous departments across the federal government for its cost-cutting initiatives. The actions have prompted state attorneys general to file suits blocking DOGE from accessing confidential data, and in the past week several U.S. district judges have issued temporary rulingson the ongoing challenges. We are surveying our podcast listeners to better understand our audience and improve our products. If you regularly listen to the podcast, or even if you have listened just once, please take three minutes and fill out this audience survey. We’d really appreciate it!Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.Take the survey: What do you think of DOGE so far? Let us know!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sonic the Hedgehog 3 is now streaming on Paramount+. He is much more impressive than the hedgehog I fought previously. Dude, I'm standing right here. Sonic the Hedgehog 3 is now streaming on Paramount+. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan,

you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply, details at fizz.ca. ["Tangle"] From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. ["Tangle"] This is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of our take. I'm your host, Will Kabeck, and today we're going to be talking about the Department of Government Efficiency, also known as DOJ.

We're going to be giving an update on some of the court cases challenging the agency's activity within federal agencies, some of the recent controversies that have come about as a result of its actions, and some of the savings that it's starting to publish on its website that show exactly where its cuts to government spending are coming from. Before we jump in to brief announcements, first, we are surveying our podcast listeners to better understand our audience and improve our products across Tangle. So if you're somebody who regularly listens to the podcast or even if this is just your first time ever tuning in Please take three minutes and fill out the audience survey that we're gonna link in today's episode notes We'd really appreciate it. And again, it's all going to go towards making the podcast a better product for you Second this Friday executive editor Isaac Saul will be making his much Anticipated return from paternity leave with

a subscribers only edition reacting to the first month of Trump's second term. We're really excited to share this piece with you so if you want to check it out make sure that you're signed up as a full Tangle member. All right with that out of the way I'm going to pass it over to John to talk about our main story and what the right and left are saying and then I'll be back for my take. Thanks, Will, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, President Donald Trump said he has the power to end the war in Ukraine, suggesting that Ukraine bears responsibility for the conflict and has failed to make a deal to end it. Separately, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the United States would establish a team to work toward negotiating an end to the Ukraine war following a meeting with Russian officials

in Saudi Arabia. Rubio also said the U.S. and Russia have agreed to reestablish staffing at their respective embassies in Washington and Moscow. Number 2. Border Patrol said it arrested 29,000 unauthorized migrants at the U.S.-Mexico border in January 2025, the lowest monthly total since May 2020. Postmaster General Louis DeJoy said he would step down from his position, which he was appointed to in 2020.

Separately, Jim Jones, the head of the Food Division at the Food and Drug Administration, citing recent layoffs at the agency. 4. The Senate voted 51-45 to confirm Howard Lutnick as Commerce Secretary. 5. Extreme cold warnings were issued for 11 U.S. states due to a polar vortex, the tenth such weather event in the U.S. this winter. The warnings followed a series of storms across the eastern United States over the weekend, which killed at least 14 people. Hundreds demonstrating against President Trump and Elon Musk as they push forward with changes to shrink the size of the federal government.

ABC News learning the top social security official has stepped down after clashing with the Department of Government Efficiency over access to the sensitive personal information of millions of Americans, including financial data and employment information. President Trump has directed Elon Musk and the Doge team to identify fraud at the Social Security Administration.

The Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, led by Elon Musk, has gained access or attempted to gain access to numerous departments across the federal government for its cost-cutting initiatives. The actions have prompted state attorneys general to file suits blocking Doge from accessing confidential data, and in the past week several U.S. district judges have issued temporary rulings on the ongoing challenges. On Monday, Doge published a wall of receipts detailing contracts and federal real estate holdings it has identified and cut from the federal budget.

It claims to have saved $55 billion, but an itemization of the savings on their website currently totals $16.6 billion, though that figure is disputed. As part of its savings, it has recommended firing thousands of government employees. You can read our previous coverage of Doge with a link in today's episode description.

Last Friday, US District Judge Jeanette Vargas extended an order blocking DOJ employees from accessing Treasury Department data. The injunction followed a lawsuit from 19 state attorneys general on constitutional and privacy grounds. On Monday, U.S. District Judge Randolph Moss denied a challenge from the University of California Student Association to block DOJ from accessing Department of Education data. On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkin rejected a request from 14 Democratic state attorneys general to issue a temporary restraining order on Doge access to federal departments.

Chutkin, who oversaw Special Counsel Jack Smith's case against President Donald Trump's alleged interference in the 2020 election ruled that the Attorney General had not shown that the immediate and irreparable injury would follow Doge's actions. However, Chutkin appeared open to arguments that Doge's actions were in violation of the Constitution's Appointments Clause. On its official website, the Department of Government Efficiency has itemized the contracts and savings it has cut from the federal budget, committing to real-time updates twice a week.

Of the $55 billion Doge has claimed, it has only itemized approximately $17 billion, although the website notes that the termination notices issued by Doge make up 20% of its savings and will have a one-month lag before they are reported through the Federal Procurement Data System. Additionally, $8 billion of savings has come from a contract with Immigration and Customs Enforcement that was erroneously listed in 2022 and was actually worth $8 million. Doge has corrected the contract, but as of publication has not adjusted the total savings it claims.

On Sunday, the Trump administration halted the firing of nearly 350 employees at the National Nuclear Security Administration, who work with the nation's nuclear arsenal and is attempting to rehire most of the released workers back. The employees were dismissed on Thursday as part of a wider Doge firing of roughly 2,000 employees across the Department of Energy. Also on Sunday, a memorandum within the Internal Revenue Service, leaked to the Washington Post, indicated that Doge was seeking access to a data system with personally identifying and banking information of U.S. citizens.

On Monday, Acting Social Security Administration Commissioner Michelle King resigned from her post in protest of Doge's request to access private taxpayer information. Leland Dudek will lead the agency until the Senate confirms King's permanent replacement. Today we'll get into what the right and the left are saying about Doge's cost-cutting initiative. Then Tangle editor Will Kabeck will give his take. We'll be right back after this quick break. Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Welcome home, my boy.

He's now streaming on Paramount Plus. He is much more impressive than the hedgehog I fought previously. Dude, I'm standing right here. Sonic the Hedgehog 3, now streaming on Paramount Plus. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. details at fizz.ca.

All right, let's get started with what the right is saying. The right is mostly supportive of Dozier's efforts, arguing they are ambitious and focused on the right issues. Some caution that the agency's efforts will require a gentler hand in some areas of the government. Others say Trump should take steps to make Doge's recommended changes permanent. National Review's editors wrote about the truth about Doge.

Doge's critics are premature, hysterical, and perverted by a peculiar legal theory that has no footing in the Constitution. Under the Constitution, the President has plenary authority over the executive branch to run as he sees fit, with the significant exception that he must carry out tasks given him by Congress, the editor said. Thus far, Doge has represented nothing more dramatic than an audit of federal spending of the sort in which the President of the United States, acting via any agent he sees fit to name, is self-evidently permitted to engage.

Nevertheless, Elon Musk's claim that he intends to recover trillions of dollars is absurd. Because we disapprove of any waste in government, we will be grateful for whatever he uncovers. But even if he is successful beyond his wildest dreams, he is not going to alter the fundamental realities of the American fisc," the editors wrote. Still, one ought not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The unresponsiveness of the bureaucracy is one of the biggest threats to our constitutional order. Doge cannot solve this problem alone, but providing that it works within the limits of its legitimate

power, it can make itself extremely useful to those who desire reform. In the Washington Post, Howard Hussok said Doge must be cautious in aspects of its approach. No one who believes in limited government can do anything other than endorse the Trump administration's willingness to question and winnow the profusion of federal agencies. Carving out unnecessary and divisive programs focused on race and unachievable climate goals makes sense," Hussack wrote. But those of us rooting for the president and Elon Musk

should also be concerned about a risk that Department of Government efficiency may pose, not just for unproductive civil servants and the deep state, but for the success of the Trump administration. Call it the risk of the hollow state, a government stripped not just of waste, fraud, and abuse, but its capacity to respond to crises and perform the core jobs the American people actually want the government to do and assumes it can do so capably," Hussack said. As it casts aside decades of waste, the White House should consider identifying and even

exempting agencies and functions integral to government and which Americans agree must be capably staffed. A lean government should be the goal for Trump, because a hollow government is in no American's best interest, not even Elon Musk. In The Washington Examiner, Mark Short explored how to make the Doge cuts permanent. Doge is poised to disrupt a complacent government of bureaucrats and finally cultivate accountability,

transparency, and efficiency for taxpayers. After decades of rampant spending on ridiculous pet projects, it is well past time an agency was created to look inward and audit federal spending, Schwartz said. Trump should be commended for prioritizing his initiative and including it in his day-one presidential actions. It gives teeth to his campaign promise of unburdening the American people from the crippling consequences of government mismanagement. In the coming weeks, Musk and his team will also likely target the massive amounts of health care spending and education funding. Together with other Trump cabinet members, he will cut back gratuitous government expenses that drain our citizens' pockets and undermine our national strength," Schwarz said.

While its initial success is encouraging, Doge is set to close its doors in July 2026, and most of Doge's gains have been made through temporary executive orders. Trump and Musk should call on Congress to put the Doge executive orders into law. Alright that is it for what the right is saying which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is critical of Doge's actions, framing Musk's approach as focused on style over substance. Some say Musk has failed to produce evidence of fraud at the Social Security Administration. Others suggest Doge should focus on different government agencies to more effectively target waste.

In New York Magazine, Ed Kilgore wrote, Doge is about ideology and mindless budget-cutting, not efficiency. Musk clearly loves to depict Doge as a lean-mean efficiency machine, but it seems increasingly obvious that its efforts to reduce personnel levels and spending mostly reflects an ideology that treats whole areas of government as illegitimate and completely arbitrary reductions in force as a valuable end in themselves, Kilgore wrote. In most cases, their legal rationale is as an exercise of executive branch agency management rather than an usurpation of the congressional policymaking that has shaped most of what

bureaucrats do. But in reality, Dozier's savings mostly fall into two baskets that have nothing to do with efficiency or rooting out waste, fraud, or abuse. All along, Musk has been focused on adding notches to his belt, achieving pulled-out-of-the-air but impressive-sounding amounts of alleged savings, rather than making government less wasteful or more accountable, Kilgore wrote. So don't be too fooled by the smoke and mirrors of Doge technological virtuosity in doing its job.

Musk regards even good government as inherently wasteful, which in turn makes efforts to improve what taxpayers get for their money a waste of time. In Bloomberg, Justin Fox pushed back on Musk's claims of fraud at the Social Security Administration. Sure, checks sometimes go out to recipients who shouldn't receive them, with the Social Security Administration estimating that it made $13.6 billion in overpayments in fiscal year 2023. But that was out of $1.3 trillion in disbursements. Even if the actual overpayment amount is several times larger, it's still not much relative to the huge scale of Social Security, Fox said.

It is true that administering Social Security's main program, old age and survivors' insurance, doesn't involve a lot of judgment calls or customer output. You're either old enough to qualify for benefits or you're not, and you're either alive or you're not. But its efficiency is still impressive. OASI administrative costs amount to just 0.4% of total spending, down from 1.6% half a century ago. Musk's claim that we've got people in there that are 150 years old was, while possibly

accurate, is neither one, news, nor two, necessarily indicative of a significant problem, Fox added. Government computer systems are full of legacy quirks like this, and upgrading and updating them is a huge and often fraught endeavor. Social security has serious looming funding problems that are the product of its design and the aging of the US population, not its operations. Do Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency have ideas for dealing with either of those issues?

So far, they've given no sign of it. In Newsweek, Ben Cohen and Justin Goodman argued Doe should take a look at wasteful Pentagon spending. Cleaning up the DOD's waste is an issue that has united folks across the political spectrum, presenting a rare opportunity for bipartisanship with President Donald Trump and Elon Musk's newly formed Department of Government Efficiency, Cohen and Goodman said. The DOD's waste spans the globe, and not just for war.

In a 2024 report, the DOD's Office of the Inspector General found that the agency shipped $1.4 billion in taxpayer money to foreign research laboratories between 2014 and 2023. An audit requested by Senate Doge Caucus Chair Joni Ernst, the Republican from Iowa, an Army veteran, determined that the DOD couldn't account for this spending. Additionally, the Office of the Inspector General wrote that the DOD did not track funding at the level of detail necessary to determine whether the DOD provided funding to Chinese research laboratories or other foreign countries for research related to the enhancement of

pathogens of pandemic potential. Not tracking whether U.S. tax dollars were used to engineer super viruses in adversarial nations seems like a pretty egregious and dangerous oversight failure. Cohen and Goodman wrote. If Doge is serious about cutting waste, it needs to look first at the Pentagon. All right, let's head over to Will for his take. All right. That is it for what the right and left are saying, which brings us to my take. A reminder, this is Tangle editor Will Kavak and I authored today's my take. While most of its actions seem to be legal,

the Department of Government Efficiency, as led by Elon Musk, has not demonstrated sufficient competence to justify its requests for high-level access within the government. Before diving in, I want to echo something Tangle managing editor Ari Weitzman wrote when we first covered this topic a few weeks back. To paraphrase, Ari said that supporting efforts

to reduce government waste and opposing DOJ's methods are not mutually exclusive. And since we published that edition, that notion has only become more resonant. My biggest concerns with DOJ's activity are at the Internal Revenue Service, the IRS, and Social Security Administration, the SSA. First though, let's examine DOJ's recent efforts to address government waste.

On Monday, Doge updated its website to include information about the $55 billion in savings it says it has generated through quote, a combination of fraud detection and deletion, contract lease cancellations, contract and lease renegotiations, asset sales, grant cancellations, workforce reductions, programmatic changes, and regulatory savings." Much of the website is still incomplete, lacking full documentation for each entry, but it still contains valuable information about the cuts being made. For example, almost all of the listed savings have come from contract cancellations, and many entries in the savings column are zero, seemingly because the contract in question

has run its course. Other entries, however, show savings ranging from the thousands to the billions, and we can't fully assess these cuts without complete information on the contracts and why Doge deemed them wasteful, but publishing this data is an encouraging act of transparency. There are eyebrow-raising contracts for $25 million for Agriculture Department DEI trainings or $4.5 million for leadership development. But these cuts are ultimately drops in the bucket relative to Doge's goal of trillions

or at least hundreds of billions in spending reductions. And the sizable missteps they're making in the process, which I'll discuss in a bit, don't engender confidence in their ability to do the job. All the while, daily federal outlays have actually increased in Trump's second term compared to Biden's first weeks in office. Doge still needs to update its top line savings to reflect the $8 billion, $8 million mix-up in a Department of Homeland Security contract, which will decrease its total reported savings by roughly 14.5%. Regardless of that number, though, more concerning than the accuracy of its savings are its errors

of improper diligence or rash decisions. Things like the firing and attempted rehiring of more than 300 staffers at the National Nuclear Safety Administration, the apparent confusion over the meaning of probationary employees, leading to the firing of thousands of federal workers for invented claims of poor performance,

hiring a staffer who had previously been fired by a cybersecurity firm for leaking company secrets, and putting Education Department employees on leave simply for attending a DEI training course that was encouraged by Trump's Education Secretary during his first term. The lack of cogency is the most concerning aspect of these actions. Musk's team is moving carelessly, leaning on artificial intelligence and a move-fast, break-things ethos to take blind swings at massive, complex agencies. As conservative writer John Podhoretz recently remarked, the government may be broken,

but Musk's approach is likely to break it further. Now that brings me to the IRS and the SSA. At the IRS, DOJ is seeking access to the agency's Integrated Data Retrieval System, the IDRS, which contains personal identification numbers and bank information about every taxpayer, business, and nonprofit in the United States. The White House declined to offer a rationale for this request, other than to say that, quote, waste, fraud, and abuse have been deeply entrenched in our broken system for far too long. It takes direct access to the system to identify it and fix it, end quote. Now, this explanation is fundamentally irreconcilable with Musk's insistence that, quote,

all aspects of the government must be fully transparent and accountable to the people, end quote. It's impossible to know what DOGE will do within one of the most protected data systems in the entire government, and the chance that they might find some waste or inefficiencies is not caused to do away with well-established protocols managing access to the system. And again, Doge has done little to prove its competence in managing sensitive information like this. With the SSA, Musk has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the systems he's auditing. On Sunday, he posted a table purporting to show that millions of people over the age of 100 were receiving Social Security benefits, including some over the age of 150. Musk then said the discovery, quote, might be the biggest fraud in history, end quote.

While Social Security fraud is real and well-documented, the agency has already addressed the discrepancies that Musk highlighted. In 2015, the Office of the Inspector General for SSA released a report that explained the SSA system was not configured to account for people who had exceeded, quote, maximum reasonable life expectancies and were likely deceased, end quote. While a follow-up report found that almost none of the people in this group were receiving payments. It's reasonable to say the SSA should update its code base. The agency estimated that doing so would cost about $9 million. But it's not accurate to say what Musk found is evidence of fraud.

Musk's claims have the added effect of distracting from important areas of reform that Doge should be targeting within the SSA, like modernizing the agency's 60 year old programming language. Additionally, there's plenty of waste and fraud that we already know of for a Doge to target, like employee retention credit fraud at the IRS and Medicare and Medicaid abuses. Doge's actions also risk short-term disruptions. Mass layoffs at the IRS during tax filing season seem like a recipe for inefficiency,

while even a temporary disruption to Social Security payments amid upheaval at the agency would affect tens of millions of Americans. If pressing changes are needed, why can't Doge explain them in clear terms? Furthermore, why can't they explain what steps are being taken to ensure critical government services continue to function during that time?

But I want to end by clarifying one important aspect of my criticism. I think DOJ has been rash, counterproductive, untrustworthy, and inefficient, but I don't think that DOJ has acted illegally. Some judges have blocked its attempts to gain access to sensitive government systems, but these rulings are temporary and stop short of saying that Doge has broken the law.

At the same time, several other judges have ruled against challenges to Doge's access, often because the plaintiffs lacked standing to sue. While the courts may establish some guardrails on the extent of Doge's actions, I think it's unlikely that their access is significantly curtailed as long as they have the White House's backing. Taking a step back, the most frustrating aspect of this story to me is that Doge's mission is something most Americans truly care about. We know a lot about government waste, but have struggled to act on it, and Doge could

be the catalyst to change course. But instead, the group seems committed to a strategy of shock and awe over diligence and competence with little to show for it thus far. We'll be right back after this quick break. Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Welcome home, my boy. We'll be right back after this quick break. Now streaming on Paramount Plus. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz.

Switch today. Conditions apply, details at fizz.ca. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. Today's question comes from Loree in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, who asks, can you explain the difference between Trump's 2025 order regarding reinstatement of and back pay for military personnel who left active duty and reserve duty due to denying COVID vaccinations versus the 2023 legislation that Biden signed regarding the same.

Aidan Gorman, Tangles Associate Producer, response. The short answer is that the law Biden signed and Trump's executive order did two different things. First, in August, 2021, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin sent a memorandum to senior Pentagon leadership, stating that the COVID-19 vaccine would become a mandatory requirement for all service members. Eventually, over 8,200 soldiers were discharged for failing to comply. Then in December 2022, President Biden signed the National Defense Authorization

Act, which rescinded the COVID-19 vaccine requirement. In 2023, Secretary Austin sent another memorandum to senior Pentagon officials rescinding the vaccination directive in the 2021 memorandum, but continuing to encourage vaccination. Service members who were discharged solely due to not receiving the vaccine were able to petition to correct their records to a general discharge. In 2023 as well, the Department of Defense invited discharged soldiers to reenlist, but only 113 did so. According to a spokesperson for the department, the Biden administration would not pursue back pay for those who refused the vaccine and were discharged, stating, quote, at the time those orders were refused,

it was a lawful order, end quote. All of those actions are very different from the steps President Trump took in his first week in office. On January 27th, he signed an executive action ordering all service members discharged due to a refusal to receive the COVID-19 vaccine, to be eligible for reinstatement to their former ranks

and full back pay benefits and bonuses. All right, that is it for our reader question today. So I will send it back over to John for the rest of the podcast and talk to all of you soon. Have a great day. Thanks, Will. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. The Los Angeles wildfires in January highlighted a critical issue with fire department resources—a

dearth of operational fire trucks. In Los Angeles alone, dozens of rigs were out of service while the fires raged, due in part to faulty maintenance as well as industry disruptions. According to a new analysis by the New York Times, efforts to consolidate the fire engine industry over the past two decades have led to higher profit margins but longer manufacturing times. Lingering supply chain issues and labor shortages from the pandemic have exacerbated the problem, and many fire departments across the United States face a multi-year wait to receive new engines. The New York Times has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description.

Alright next up is our numbers section. The estimated amount paid to recipients of old age, survivors and disability insurance by the Social Security Administration in fiscal year 2023 was $1.4 trillion, according to the Office of Management and Budget. The amount of those payments estimated by OMB to be overpayments was $3.3 billion, approximately 0.24% of total outlays. The total amount of improper and unknown payments from Medicare between 2004 and 2023 was $644.5 billion, the largest of any federal program.

The total amount of improper and unknown payments from Medicare fee-for-service between 2004 and 2023 was $570 billion, the second largest of any federal program. The total amount of improper and unknown payments out of OASDI between 2004 and 2023 was $68 billion, the seventh largest of any federal program. The percentage of applications and software used by the Internal Revenue Service that are considered outdated is 33% and 23%, according to a 2023 report by the Government Accountability Office. The percentage of U.S. adults who think the government is spending too little on Social

Security is 67% according to a January 2025 AP NORC poll, and the percentage of Americans who have a favorable and unfavorable view respectively of the IRS is 38% and 50% according to a July 2024 Pew Research survey. And last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. When Earl the Donkey was rehorned after his previous owner passed away, he was lonely and depressed, even responding poorly to play dates with other animals. Then his new owner, Michelle, tried something new. She gave him a yoga ball.

Earl lit up and proceeded to throw the ball into the air and chase it. The excitement was just pure joy for him, Michelle said. Earl has since been spoiled with almost 40 yoga balls donated by social media users who saw his story. Even better, Earl has a few donkey friends who play ball with him. CTV News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to REETANGLE.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, a podcast membership, or a specially discounted bundle

membership which gets you access to Friday editions, Sunday editions, interviews, bonus content, and so much more. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Will and the rest of the crew, this is John Lahl signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by Duke Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will Kavak, Gail Esal, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bikova, who is also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website and that makes you important to us.

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