Tangle - Valentine's Day Special: I interview my wife.

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

On today's special episode of Tangle, as a way to celebrate Valentine's Day, I sat down and interviewed my wife. We talked about law school, our political disagreements, her favorite and least favorite things about me, and finished in the most mushy way possible. Happy Valentine's Day.Read today’s newsletter here (The Twitter hearings).You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Zosha Warpeha. Music for today’s podcast was written and produced by Jon Lall.Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hey everyone, Isaac here. I just wanted to give you a quick heads up that we are skipping our normal podcast today in order to publish what you're about to hear, which is a little Valentine's Day special episode. We're going to do our best to get today's newsletter into podcast format maybe later this week. No promises, but I figured you guys might like a little change up for once if you're interested in today's topic

that was in the newsletter, it is about the Twitter hearings. And you can go find that on our website, readtangle.com, or in your inbox if you're a newsletter subscriber. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy this very special edition for podcast listeners only. Have a good Valentine's Day. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. That new music you hear, that's the sweet tender sound of our Valentine's Day podcast introduction because on today's episode we're doing something a little different. We are sitting down with a first year Temple Law student, a former actor and director, the main character in one of the most popular Tangle pieces ever published, a New York lifer now stuck in Philadelphia,

Pennsylvania, the love of my life, my wife, Phoebe Blake Padgett. Phoebe, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Are you nervous? Yeah, a little bit. More or less nervous than performing on stage in front of people? Oh, I think more. Okay, well, don't worry about it.

I mean, everything you say will live on the internet forever. Yeah. No pressure. I mean, that's my life every single day. So you're stepping into my world a little bit now. People don't know this, or maybe they do, but they actually hear your voice every single day on the Tangle podcast. From executive producer Isaac Saul.

That's right. I think probably less than five Tangle listeners know that, that Phoebe is the female voice on the Tangle introduction. Do you remember that that guy got pissed off about that? I sure do, yeah. Phoebe and I spent, this was in quarantine, we launched the Tangle podcast during COVID. We had this really beautiful,, we launched the Tangle podcast during COVID. We had this

really beautiful, cute time recording the introduction together. Wait, sorry, just to set the stage, I requested it. I said, let me record this because... I had to make the introduction. Everybody loves our introduction. I get compliments on the music. We're not using it today, which is ironic because we swapped in some sweet Valentine's Day music. Everybody loves the Tangle intro, and we had such a good time recording it. And then this guy wrote me an email and was like, I find it basically gross that you're reinforcing the patriarchy by having a woman's voice introducing you on your podcast. And we had just thought we had this really beautiful, fun, cute thing where we did the introduction together. And then the first day the podcast came out, somebody wrote in and basically told me I was an asshole for having your voice on there. So. He made like a pretty specific,

he was like that using this female voice to introduce a male producer is like having girls in bikinis selling hamburgers and I was like both offended and also like hey now does that mean I have a hot voice it was uh it was really weird I I am very my attitude with readers my rule is always that that I give everybody one email of like, I don't care how unhinged your reach out is. It doesn't matter how angry you are. I will do my best to respond in a very nice, kind way. And that guy, he tested my patience. I sent him kind of a scathing email back and said, you know, you're basically a lunatic. That's not true. You did not lunatic. That's not true.

You did not say that. That's not true. I didn't say, I didn't call him a lunatic. No, you were like, I, no. I said. You didn't say that at all, actually. What do you think? You were very respectful.

You were like, I totally understand where you're coming from, but this was a thing that I did with my wife. I think he even said she has a background in theater or something. And so this was something that we did for fun during a horrible time in history. Okay, yeah. All right, that's a nice, that's a pretty good look into the dynamic of our relationship on Valentine's Day. If you'd be correcting me and calling me out for a story that I try to make sound a little bit better. Okay, so first of all, this is your Valentine's Day present. I hope that's okay.

That's great. Yeah. You happy with that? I've given you some pretty terrible presents. I think we'll talk about that a little bit. We'll get into that. I'm going to give you some space to air your grievances. Weirdly enough, even though this is kind of technically work for me, Because weirdly enough, even though this is kind of technically work for me, this is sort of an odd occurrence for us these days. We have an hour sitting across from each other, whatever this is going to be, just to chat. You've been quite busy in your first year of law school, which was well documented or the beginning of it was well documented in a Tangled newsletter that people love. That was probably the most positive feedback I've ever gotten on a newsletter. I've got a few questions jotted down about that, about where your life is these days.

We have established zero ground rules going into this, just so that people know. This is like, I just pulled Phoebe away from studying. I just wrapped up a day's work. It's Monday night. I just wrapped up a day's work. It's Monday night. I guess maybe a good place to start is, how are you liking Philadelphia so far compared to New York City? Honest answers only. I do like Philadelphia.

I do. I do like it, but I will say, like, I really, really miss New York. And I think, that being said, I think Philly is the best place that I could do law school. I mean, our quality of life and just the base level of stress in Philly is so different that I can't imagine doing law school in New York, even however much I miss it. I feel like it would have been really, really bad for me.

I mean, maybe it would have been fine, but I think there would have been a lot of different obstacles that I don't have here because the city is just like a small child's playground here. What do you miss? What do you miss about New York City? Well, I mean, I think, I think honestly you put this in tangle, but I think one of the biggest things for me is that I moved to the city at 18. And so like much of my independent adult life was in New York. And there was a lot of growing up and a lot of becoming an individual and a lot of coming into myself. And I think that I was really

worried that that was like geographically bound where it's like, oh, I have all of this freedom and all of these relationships. My whole family is there. My middle brother is in California, but for the most part, my family is all either in the city or within 30 minutes of the city. And all of my friends are there, and I had a very strong community there

and a lot of history there, and I had a very strong community there and a lot of history there. And I'm a big stoop kid. I don't leave. I never leave. And just moving two hours away was a real shock to my system. Yeah, there was a time I remember in the application process when you were looking at schools where you were like, oh, maybe I'll apply to UNC or Austin and maybe we'll go to Boston or we could, I'm going to send an application to some schools in Southern California. I was like, we're going to be in New York City or Philadelphia, basically.

I even crossed Washington, D.C. off the list. I think you got in the G-Dub, right? Yeah. And I was like, even for me, I didn't want to live in DC at all. I mean, I think for a number of reasons, weirdly enough, I was just like the distance from that world I think is good for my writing. And I also just find DC to be a great place to visit, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there really. I've recently become interested in DC, I think mainly because I'm in law school and you can't kind of avoid that. And also I've watched a lot of legal soap opera now and, uh, and I have a completely romanticized revision of what it would look like to live in DC. And so part of me is like,

I'm Olivia Pope and I'm on West Wing and I would thrive there. I think there's part of me that was like, I'll be a really fancy lawyer once I moved to DC. And that is grounded in nothing other than Sunshine Island television shows. You got really into the West Wing for a little while. Big time. You know, people hate the West Wing like passionately. What? Yeah. It's a real thing, especially in the political world. Politically engaged people. Oh, yeah.

Because they're like, this is- Just a fraud. Right. It's just like a total- I mean, I'm not in it for- Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

I'm not in it for that. But it's just a funny thing. I think it's a very sort of dramatized liberal, like our institutions are incredible perspective on DC where like the joke is like, you know, Veep is actually closer to the real thing or a house of cards than the West Wing is. But I have to admit, I also got really into West Wing for a little bit. I watched a couple. With me. admit, I also got really into West Wing for a little bit. With me? Yeah, I know.

I was like totally not expecting to. And then I watched a couple of seasons. And there's something about it. There's something there. Well, I think like also, this is my theory. I have this theory that like whatever space that you're operating in, it's really nice to have a trash TV show. you're operating in, it's really nice to have a trash TV show. Not that West Wing is trash, but a TV show that is in that world that kind of dramatizes all of the things that you think and feel about. And I think watching the West Wing, I was like, this is what it's going to be.

I'm going to be a lawyer who is right-hand man to the president. And every other day, there's going to be chaos and people sleeping with each other and burning things down and I think it's like it's this nice little thing of like this isn't close enough to my reality where I feel seen in some moments and far enough away where it's like let's talk a little bit about law school not every day you get to sit down with somebody in their first year you went from stage, acting and directing to getting your undergrad in psych. I'm curious, I guess first like transferable skills. What have you found going from the world you're in? I can't think of really on surface level, two worlds that are more drastically different than theater and law school.

But I'd be curious to hear you talk about kind of what that transition has been like. So I also before law school had that same idea. And it was a pretty big concern for me because I was thinking that what law schools would look at a person with a theater background and think that that was a benefit. But I think more and more as I talk to people in the industry and I talk to more lawyers and I talk to more just people in the law, they tend to feel that it's actually a huge strength that I have this theater background. And I'm not sure if that's, like, I know that I'm interested in litigation. I want to be potentially like a trial lawyer. And I'm not sure if that's, like, I know that I'm interested in litigation. I want to be potentially like a trial lawyer. And I think there's something about that, that having had

experience speaking in front of people and knowing how to kind of carry a narrative is really important. But yeah, it was really scary initially because I wasn't sure that there was a through line there. But I think what I knew after being an actor was that I was really good at connecting with people. And I also, I felt like I had honed really good skills on how to tell a story in an effective and in a powerful and persuasive way. And I think as I go further into the law and further into what kind of law I want to be in, there's a lot of emphasis on, can you be persuasive in your arguments? It's really geeky, but the law is really,

like there's a lot of room for creativity. And I think that like having had a creative, you know, kind of like stereotypically creative background, my brain is ready for that of thinking creatively and thinking in narrative form and all of that. Yeah. It's very easy for me to imagine you being in a courtroom putting on a show. That might be a little bit more about our relationship. I just, I think that you are, commanding a room is definitely a strong suit of yours.

There's so many people who are probably brilliant scholars or legal scholars who struggle to present. And especially like given an interest in the trial aspect of it, I like to think of you, you know, lighting up a courtroom and screaming your honor or something. I don't know why that really fires me up. So class lineup right now, what are you taking? Constitutional law, international law, criminal law, legal research and writing, and property. That's a good lineup. Constitutional law is probably most relevant to my world.

What's here that is ranked most to least interesting to you currently? Okay, it's a little bit of a cop-out, but I do like all of my classes. My most interesting and challenging class is definitely constitutional law. I'm most surprised that I like property. Hmm, property law. Very strange. Tell us something interesting about property law. It's all fake.

I mean, that's not true. Sorry to any property lawyers there. But it's one of those spaces where so much of property is like, we only have property laws because we need property laws. We only know what property is because we need it to be in relationship to the law and how we understand ownership and transfer and power and all of these things. And I think while that's kind of true in a lot of other spaces of the law, it's really a clear moment where we've created legal names for things

so we know how to deal with them. So we know how to protect them, how to transfer them, how to value them all through whether we identify it as property or not and whose property or not. So what constitutes something being my property? How do I take ownership over something? That's something I'd like to know. Like your water bottles on the table. What happens if I take it from you and say it's mine now? Does that work? That's actually like how we started our class was the professor took a textbook off of a student's desk and said, so is this my textbook now? And everyone was like, no, of course not.

And he's like, right, but why? And no one knew. I mean, you can say the obvious, like I paid for it. And so there was an exchange between the person who produced this, the manufacturer or whatever, and I paid money. There's an exchange. And so I bought the right from that person. You can make that argument. But then the other argument is like, you have all these like adverse

possession rules, which is normally just land, but it's like, if you use something for long enough, and you extend over at this kind of like ownership power, and you use it like an owner would, this is more for land, but then it could be yours too, depending on where you are. Like if you go and live, this is not, I should preface all of this. None of this is legal. None of this is, is, is legal help. This is no, no advice from, from old feet. You're in your second semester i'm in my second semester and i have learned that that is something that i need to now do is anytime i talk about the law i say this is not legal advice do not sue me for malpractice i do not know anything so sweet so with that

caveat out of the way now give us some sweet legal advice okay again not legal advice this is my my lifestyle we're talking about so we were recently talking about adverse possession of land. And so there are all these cases where it's like, if you say there's like two chunks of land and you go and you think, oh, this section is my chunk of land. And so I treat it like a property owner of this kind of land would be or how they would treat this kind of land, and I do it for a series of years, like I do it for 10 years, then you have a legal right over it. And it's more complicated, but... You mean like, hold on, like if there was a cornfield and it didn't belong to me and I went and camped on the cornfield with a tractor and tended to all the corn and harvested

it and watered it and seeded it and did that for like five years, then I could be like, this is my cornfield now. Maybe if you did it for like 15 years, 20 years, and you also could prove that nobody else was there and you didn't have permission, that it wasn't like the owner was like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. But if it was like you thought it was an abandoned field and you were there for 15 years

and you were cultivating the land and all of that, it's, you know, you could make the claim that it's your land. And I am probably butchering this and some people are listening to this being like, this girl's an idiot. The concepts behind those kind of laws that we have are about these other kind of broader social public policy things where it's like at the time that these laws were created, we were really like, we want people to build on land. We want people to develop wild, unowned, abandoned land. And so a lot of these laws come from things that are really not the way that we live right now, right? There isn't unowned, abandoned, wild land that no one has claimed to that people can go and stake on and take over. So it's really interesting to see a lot of those laws were reflective of how we were trying to transfer power and how we were trying to establish power and how we were trying to, or what behaviors we were trying to encourage and incentivize in people.

I mean, I love that. That's just the kind of, I won't say legal advice because we're not allowed to say that. It's not legal. That's just the kind of legal theory that I like knowing about, like, Hey, if I ever want to steal somebody's cornfield, I could just go take care of it for 10 years. What's the one, isn't there a, there's another crazy property story about a guy's like

DNA or body? Oh yeah. What's that one? I like that one. Yeah. So this was a conversation, which, which thinks, well, I think the one that people know of is the Henrietta Lacks story or her DNA was used for, again, I'm not, I'm butchering this a little bit, but used the DNA or something in her cells to experiment on to create a cure or some sort of treatment process for, now I'm blanking, I'm not sure if it was a cancer. But similarly, there's another case like this where the conversation is, are cells that are removed from a patient's body after like a medical treatment, are they still your property?

And so like in this case, there was a patient who went in who had a certain kind of cancer, had part of his spleen removed, and there was something very specific, again, I'm butchering this, about like the ways that his cells populated or something. There was something that was being created in excess in his body. And so the researchers used his cells to develop a cell line that was then patented as this cell line to treat cancer, which was then valued at something crazy like $3 billion. And so the patient, the original patient, tried to stake a claim that those were his cells and he had ownership and they were a property of his. And so he should be able to kind of like sue for partial stake in the patent.

I love that. I mean, that to me, we've covered a few Supreme Court cases in Tangle and I find them so fascinating because all the good cases- This wasn't a Supreme Court case. I know. I know. I'm just saying it reminds me of something that would be fought to the Supreme Court because it's like the answer, like you said, there's so much creativity there. A lot of the times I read about these Supreme Court cases, especially the really divisive ones, and so many people believe that there's just this black and white answer. And then the more you read, the more complex it gets.

And I always come out in these newsletters just being like, it's like I'm very torn. I feel this way, I feel that way. I can see the arguments on both sides because that's often just how I feel. It's never really simple. Do you know what the actual ruling was in that case? in them or an ownership interest in them. But a lot of that was kind of based on this idea of, so what he was suing under is conversion, which essentially is like a form of trespass to property. And conversion is strict liability, so it doesn't matter. Like the concern was that if you say,

yes, this is my property, yes, I have a property, like a property right over these things, it could be then pushed down the line to the researchers who don't know where they're getting these cells from, who are then terrified to do research that is like huge medical advancements that we need because they're concerned about legal ramifications. So as much as there was like, it was a pretty tenuous legal claim, it was obviously really impacted by these social concerns of like, if we criminalize this, if we make this illegal, not criminalized, but if we make it illegal, if we have legal ramifications or protections for these cells, then it could really, really hinder important medical research. See, that's one of these, it's a perfect example of a case where i want the outcome that happened like that

argument that we need this stuff for medical research and that it's better if the law does this totally resonates with me and i think if i had to pick one for the good of society that's the one i would pick but the idea that somebody's cells don't belong to them once they've been removed from their body seems totally unethical and wrong to me also. At the same time, I sympathize so strongly with that position of being somebody who would willingly, especially unwittingly, have their DNA or whatever used for this research and other people profit off of it and all these things and not getting a cut of it. That doesn't seem right to me either. Well, I will say like the way that regardless of whether or not he had an actual

property right, there would be still the concern of he wouldn't necessarily have a right to the patent or any of those proceeds. So had they even established that there was a right, like that he had a property right or an ownership over those cells, it wouldn't necessarily have meant, and so I deserve a cut of this patent because the patent is different. But yeah, I mean, it was a lot of what we talked about in that class was both the majority and the dissent were kind of grappling with this idea that they were both very uncomfortable with like a body part market, essentially, where it's like, if we say cells are property, then we're kind of commodifying them. But interestingly, the dissent said like, if we don't give people property rights over their body, then their bodies can be exploited for

commercial and economic gain. So there was this, they were both kind of wrestling with these, with the similar concept of like, something about this is sticky, something about this feels not right, that there's some moral tackiness to this. And it was just, it's really interesting to watch the ways that that breaks across the line where it's like, and therefore we need to provide property rights for sales or, and therefore we absolutely should not provide those rights. You know, it's like, they're both grappling with the same feeling, which is not always the case, but with this one, it kind of was. God, this makes me want to go to law school it's the best it's the best you like it really

i i love it yeah that's really nice you took a big risk you swung on something really big and you actually really love it yeah you went from being a stage theater director to going to law school and it turned out maybe it was a good good call yeah i think it was the best call aside from marrying you is that your what kind of response aside from marrying me but it was the best call. Aside from? Marrying you? Is that your? No. What kind of response is that? Aside from marrying me. But it was the best call. There's a cute moment.

Oh, I thought you were saying that. I thought you were fishing. You love it aside from. No, I was going to say aside from the fact that it's incredibly hard and you're drowning in schoolwork. That too. You don't really sleep. You just study all the time. Correct.

But I think that's kind of part of the thing. You just study all the time. Correct. But I think like that's kind of part of the thing. Like I think that's what's interesting for me. Like I am kind of coming to terms or just owning for the first time that like working really hard is something that gives me a lot of value. Like I feel really settled and confident and strong when I'm doing really difficult things. And so I think, while yeah, that's kind of the downside of law school, it's also a huge upside for me. Because I think I've really enjoyed being challenged and like being really challenged. I mean, sometimes you take it too far and you don't sleep and the law is a nightmare. And sometimes it's beautiful.

It's nice to hear you say that about yourself. I think that's something I recognized about you pretty early on that you sort of thirst for that. Something I find very attractive to be frank. I like, I mean, I like that. I don't want somebody, you know, who's uninterested in that kind of stuff, but I also can see you throw yourself into challenges in a way that, you know, then they grind you down to. And that's, that's the other side of it. I mean, I, from my perspective where I'm sitting, I've been like, holy shit, law school looks so hard. Like I thought, I mean, I still, I have days where like I, the volume of just reading or writing or whatever I do with Tangle feels totally insurmountable.

And then I've been watching what you're doing and it looks harder to me, which is, you know, it's just like, it's an unbelievable challenge that you and all your friends, your new law school friends are all grinding through together. I wanted to say that this, I think, weirdly enough, has been the hardest podcast interview I've ever had to prepare for because I had to think of like questions and things that I haven't asked you about. You're my wife. So it's like, you know, it's hard to think about stuff we haven't really talked about before questions that might be new. But one of the ones that I think kind of came out to me that I realized I haven't really asked for that I was interested in was how you feel about this being my job, my career that I'm, you know, doing Tangle and this thing and writing about politics. I mean, weirdly enough, it just occurred to me I've never asked you that.

Yeah. I think I'll start by just saying I'm incredibly impressed by you. Like, I think that, you know, this is my episode, but like, I am. Like. I'm really impressed by you. I'm really, I, you know, there was a period of our relationship where you were working, you know, I mean, 15 hour, 16 hour days when you were working at a different, you were doing it at a second job. You were also doing Tangle and like that blew me away. You know, like your work ethic was really, really inspiring to me and something that I love about you. But I think what's hard is that, you know, it's hard in two ways. I think I worry about you because you're necessarily incredibly tuned into the world. And I think just the way that news happens now with its, you can always find news.

And for the most part, you can always find something that's pretty horrific. That worries me about this being your job. And I think it's something that we've talked a lot about of how you draw your lines and how you draw boundaries between, right, what time are you off Twitter and closing the laptop? And those things are really, you know, it's like easy for me to say, like, don't open your phone or don't open Twitter, but it's like, that's your job. You know, that's how you are, you know, supporting our family right now. And then like how, you know, like that's, it's a really hard ask, but for your own person,

I think that those things are really strong. And that's one of the hardest parts about it is that I just know that it's incredibly, it's just really taxing. And I think you've done a really good job at finding your boundaries and your levels. But I think, I mean, by nature, it's a lot. It's a lot and it's really hard. And I think that you kind of have to be taking in a lot of information and news. And I think sometimes what that means is that you get a little clinical about things necessarily. But I think that's the other concern. It's like, there's a little bit of like having to have distance. And I think it's like, you know, if you see something horrific every day, it doesn't hit the same. I mean, you feel the same, but you necessarily have to take steps back from it.

Yeah. It's undeniable that part of it is taxing. I think I definitely downplay it to myself at least, like my voice. I wish we were on video so people could see the look you're giving me right now. Yeah. I mean, I just, they're just, I feel so blessed to have the occupation that I have and the job that I have. And I love the work so much that it's hard for me to frame it that way or think about it that way. But I definitely notice, I mean, I think it came up when we were talking about like the Tyree Nichols thing where it was like, I watched the video and then it's like, there's very little room for like the emotional part of it. And then it's just immediately going into this kind of like analytical, how are we going to cover this? What's like, you know, it all gets processed

through this tangle lens. And that part does worry me a little bit. Like I, cause I'm like, I know that there's, there's something there that's not totally in the conscious part of it. I also think like I've developed a pretty good, I think like a healthy sort of like sense of humor, levity just about like the world and how dysfunctional some parts about our country are. Though I know that that can also be a defense mechanism. So it's a hard line to walk. I think I get much less worked up these days about legislative stuff or like Congress acting out or whatever.

I think the things that worry me is like, yeah, it's the stories like the Tyree Nichols, the police violence, the war in Ukraine. I mean, that is really tough. All the war stuff, the stuff in Syria, you know, like this earthquake in Turkey. It's like that kind of stuff kind of crushes me. See, but that's not, that's not, you're not supposed to laugh. Yeah.

You know, like, and I think that's like, like, I remember when everything broke in Ukraine and we were walking around the city and I think you even wrote about think that's like, I remember when everything broke in Ukraine and we were walking around the city. And I think you even wrote about this, but like you were so in that world that it was almost like you were expecting Brooklyn to get like aerated. And like you were noticeably just like, it was like trauma by proxy. It was just like you were so enmeshed in the information and so terrified and worried and involved and so tied in that it was like you were, I mean, it wasn't like you were there, but you were so necessarily in tune with that information. And it was really scary to watch. Yeah.

I mean, that particular story, because the images that came out of Ukraine were so unlike. I mean, again, we've seen that with some of the more recent conflicts in the Middle East, like Syria and Iraq. But to watch the invasion begin and not be the country doing it. So like to have our reporters and our press covering it in a really aggressive way where all these videos were coming out of like these planes flying over suburban Ukraine and stuff. I mean, that part of it definitely shook me up and was really, yeah, was tough to deal with, especially, you know, having some friends and family connected to the region who had lived there and knowing they could be there. And yeah, well, that's a very real answer you gave about how the job makes you feel. real answer you gave about how the job makes you feel. And then I will just say like, I, I worry about you. And then I also like, people are nasty. And like, I remember, you know, it's like, I am a very defensive of my loved ones. And one of the hard, like, I can't go on Twitter

because there are a couple of times when I went on Twitter and someone was saying something about you, like just being nasty and having an attitude about it. And I was just like, I'm going to lose my mind. Like I'm going to lose my mind. And that is another thing where it's like, you're really good at compartmentalizing people's critiques of you. And it makes me like, I, like, I can't handle it. Like I feel, feel filled with rage. And, and it's hard because it's like, sometimes you and I disagree about something political and I may be more politically in line with this person who's coming at you. But like, that's also a tricky spot for me to be in because I'm like, yeah, I agree, but there's,

don't talk to him. Don't talk to him ever. Don't ever talk to him like that and don't ever talk to him ever again. It's like people really feel free to come at you in a way, I think because they don't really expect that you actually are hearing anything that they're saying. And that's really hard where I'm like, it's just tricky. You're in a really tricky spot. And I think the work that you're doing means that you make yourself open for a lot of criticism because you're willing to acknowledge the validity on two sides of a really complex partisan topic. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, that's a good segue to kind of the next part of this. Obviously, I wrote a bunch of stuff down and things I wanted to touch on. But I did think, you know, it's Valentine's Day. Well, we're not going to get

cute quite yet. But it is Valentine's Day. It is, you know, Tangle is obviously a platform that I think, in my mind, is very much about bridging a partisan divide, finding some common ground for sure. I think more than anything, it's just about exposing people to different views. I mean, I don't really care whether anybody changes their mind or not. I was sort of thinking about like, what do you think the issue is that we disagree on the most strongly? And maybe we could talk it out a little bit. Oh, I don't know. Oh, I don't know. I'm like, I'm nervous.

I think you and I, I don't know. I'm trying to think. Like, we had a long talk about transgender people and the concept, or not really, not so much like trans issues, but the concept of what it is to be a woman or not. It was actually one I really enjoyed having this conversation with you because I think that there's a lot of arguments around trans identity or what it means to be a woman. And a lot of people ground those things in biology, in reproductive systems. And for me, I think that none of those things in my understanding of myself as a woman, none of those things make me a woman. It's not my ovaries. It's not my breasts. It's nothing. It's not my hair or any of those things. It's the things that I know about me that feel

It's the things that I know about me that feel like that identity. And I am a cis woman, and that is something that I'm very blessed to have, that cohesive feeling between biology and identity. But I think that there are so many places where we, as a society society embrace the idea that identity is individual, that like identity and things that you believe in are for yourself to decide. And I just think it's kind of, it's such a rigid space to decide that being a woman or being a man or being non-binary, like that any of those things are boxes that are decided by anybody else other than the person individually. Because I don't think anyone gets to decide what being a woman means to me. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis

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for that. We allow, like, I think what we talked about is like, we allow people's perceptions and relationships with God to be individual. We allow that relationship and the idea of God and the understanding of that relationship to be intimate and decided between the person and their higher power. I'm sure that's going to get whatever backlash, but it's like, that's to say that we have that framework in other places. We don't allow the nuance that we have and the creativity that we have in these places in our life to come into the conversation of gender or gender identity or fluidity. Yeah, I think that's really beautifully and well said.

I mean, it's hard to disagree with anything in there. Not like I'm looking for anything to disagree with. I mean, I only say that because I was trying to flesh out maybe an argument, but then you just said a bunch of stuff that I don't really feel in disagreement about. I mean, I think because I sort of have a, I would say more spiritual or religious background than you, I thought that argument when you made, I do remember that conversation we had and it really did expand kind of my thinking about it. I thought that was like a really good analogy and a good point of inquiry, which was like,

you know, I was mostly playing devil's advocate, I think. I don't remember exactly how the conversation came up, but when you made that point, it was sort of like, not like who cares how these people are, you know, making these decisions about their identity or whatever, but even more like, why is this the one space that we try and box people in or constrain it in a way that we really don't in other spaces, which I think is a really profound and pretty original idea. I mean, I read a lot about this stuff. I know that you might not think that. I'm sure there's tons of scholars in the field and things like that who have addressed the argument that way, but I don't hear it spoken

about that much that way, at least don't hear it spoken about that much, at least that way, at least in like the political discourse. I think the political arena is probably where like the most rudimentary and bombastic and kind of like just assholey arguments about trans issues happen. I think like a lot of the really interesting conflict and arguments about it happen more in like, you know, the academic setting or the medical setting, which I find really interesting. That's so I before before I asked this question, and then I wrote down what I thought. Well, I was going to ask, what do you think, Eric, that we most disagree on is? I would say probably gun rights and then maybe like speech issues. Interesting. I mean, have we ever, that's, I'm surprised that you say, because I feel like we

haven't really talked about that. Where do we disagree? Well, like generally, I think the tension, the nature of our relationship is that your politics are much more left than mine on most issues. I am much more, I mean, maybe I'm not, my mindset is like, I'm a pretty radical free speech activist believer. Like I think like, you know, there's obvious lines where like speech is against the law. That's it's, you know, I'm not, I don't, I'm not like an idiot. I don't think there are people out there who are like free speech, no matter what. And they think that that means that you can just like say and do whatever you want whenever you want, which isn't actually how free speech works.

We did a really had a really great podcast actually with Grace Lavery, who happened to be a trans woman who had a really fantastic perspective about how these issues impact trans people in the public square. That's one of my favorite Tangle interviews I ever did. But I would say like, I'm just much more tolerant of people's expressing their right to free speech and saying things that I maybe find offensive or boring. I think like, I don't know, what do you think? I mean, well, here we go. I mean, this is I think my feeling about that is I think I in general have a little bit of this idea that like for the sake of moments of progress and equality that it's sometimes necessary to like

take the L like when we were talking about I don't know why but with trans athletes where it's like oh like these all these arguments about these trans athletes coming in in different divisions and what if they're losing and all of that. And my thought is like, who cares? Like, I'm not an athlete. And so maybe I don't understand that, but I do think that there's something for the sake of like, that I am for a level of like loss of individual privilege for the sake of these things that have been historically oppressed, right? Not these things, but like people, identities. I'm much more willing to say like, for the sake of bettering and making the world more or making our country more equitable, I'm for like, sometimes you take the L, like sometimes you just,

you can't have it all. And like, I remember this being part of like the law school application process is like the nastiness online of the idea that like, oh, I'm not getting into this law school because I'm not this, this, and the third. Like I'm not, I don't hit these like identity boxes. To be clear, just because I know what you're talking about, but I think listeners might not totally understand is when you were going through the law school application process, you were in a lot of law school subreddits where applicants who were getting rejected from schools were going online and being like, oh, I didn't get in because I'm not like a black queer or whatever. You know, they were just like very,

basically a lot of like white men being pissed off about not getting in the schools. And liberal white men, like liberal white men and liberal white women and liberal cis white women who all felt slighted in these spaces. And like, and, you know, it's like, whatever, I don't want to be like on my high horse, but I'm like, if I, if I don't get the opportunity because the opportunity is going to someone who has historically not been offered that opportunity, then like, that's the win. Like that's the win is that like, it's, it may not be me. It may not be me walking through those doors, but like, that, but that's the good thing.

That's the thing that I stand for. And so sometimes it's about not getting what you want or not getting what you would hope for yourself in every moment and understanding that by not being able to have it all, then that's the opportunity for others to have that slice of the pie. And I think there's such an achievement mindset for people

and like you deserve to have what you work for, but if you don't get it, it's not, I don't know, that like that there's grace and like, and humility and like all of these things in not getting what you want and not getting what you want being like of service to something that you care about. It's funny. I think this argument actually has nothing to do with the speech issue stuff.

Yeah, I don't have anything. I don't know. I don't know how we got here totally. But now that you're saying this, I actually think this is probably another area where we have some interesting disagreement. I mean, I've written about affirmative action in Tangle. So my views on this are like very public and transparent. But I saw, obviously you showed me like a lot of these, it was very juicy, dramatic

to watch students find out whether they're getting into these schools and how they're reacting online. And we spent some time in these message boards and there was some really ugly stuff in there. Like I, you know, in no way am I like, those people seem like good people. They did not. And I think they're representative of like, of you in the country that is like,

really fed up with any kind of, you know, whatever you want to call it, affirmative action, race-based, whatever. Which I think there are some people who have good, honest disagreements with programs like that. I mean, the affirmative action case, for instance, that's in front of the Supreme Court right now, which if you don't already, you'll certainly know more about it than I do soon, is obviously, you know, it's like that's sort of a specific place where you can talk about actual disagreements. But it's, you know, the case

that they're making is kind of interesting, where it's like, groups of Asian students are basically being discriminated against because of affirmative action policies, because they're creating race based quotas. And I actually really do disagree with that strongly. The concept that you can't just pretend the Jim Crow era and slavery and all these things didn't have an impact on education that we're still experiencing now. Obviously, I mean, that is something I've written is, and it was like the famous Lyndon Johnson quote, I can't remember exactly what it is, but it's like, you know, you can't you can't like unshackle someone and say, OK, you're free to run the race now. And that's it.

It's like and we're all we're even we're square. Like, no, you have to you have to concede that we've done this like systemic harm to people. And, you know, 60, 70 years ago, there were racial minorities in our country who weren't allowed into college. So you can't just open college applications up to them and then say like, the program's fair, the process is now fair. I do think that there's like, where it gets tricky is when you don't have like a tangible

goal that you're trying to achieve of like equity or equality around a program like that. There needs to be something that we're aiming for that is like when we get here, then we can, you know, we don't have to say like racism doesn't exist anymore, but we can concede that like, you know, that there's the gap between like a poor white person and a poor black person in America is closing right now in terms of like opportunity that they have. I mean, that's just the reality of it. And, you know, at this moment, maybe not right now today, but I think at some point before affirmative action programs, and there will probably be a time when like, you know, certain demographics, whatever it is, black or Hispanic students are going to have advantages over white students who have like same upbringing or whatever. And that's the whole point of affirmative action is to repay some of that.

But there needs to be, in my mind, there needs to be a clear stated end goal. Otherwise, it's just the sort of like perpetuation of we're dividing everybody by racial lines. And what inevitably happens, which we're seeing now, is that it creates a lot more racial tension in the country, which really scares me. I mean, that to me is like the scariest part. Do you really think that that's creating more? I just disagree with- Definitely. I don't. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think that there's tons of people out there who generations of students or whatever, kids who view themselves as being really different from people who are of other races than them. And that worries me like that. That is not historically different. That is not a shift in society.

No, I agree. It's not. That's the problem. Like the problem that we're trying to remedy is that for most of our history, we have divided ourselves by race and class. And we're saying we want to live in like the quote unquote post-racial society. I don't know that we enough equity that we don't have to worry about dividing up people by racial lines. We don't have to worry about. Right. Okay.

Yes, of course. Yes, of course. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. I just, yeah, that that's what i'm saying i i just yeah that i that i agree with i thought you meant that there would be no need to kind of understand i don't know like division between cultures and races is gonna like i think that that i like that's so ingrained right now and like i don't i don't know i think it's ingrained but i think it's also really reinforced and i

think it's i think it's one of the objections that a lot of people who are fighting the DEI movements and stuff like that, I think it's one of their objections to it that really resonates with me is that there's like, I genuinely feel really torn about like an all black safe space on a college campus. Like I think I do. I, I, again, I wish people could see the look you're giving me. Not because I don't think that those, not because I don't think that that's necessary now or that it's, it's not justified now. I think there's a perfectly obvious justification for it. I just think that long-term. But we're not dealing with a long-term But we're not dealing with a long-term. We're not dealing with a long-term. So I understand these ideas of the post-racial society and all of

this, and that's great in the hypothetical, but that is not the reality that we live in. That sounds like you're fighting a battle on a hypothetical ground, where it's like, yeah, sure, eventually, hopefully hopefully those things will weigh negatively in the opposite balance because we've made these strides so that things feel more equitable, but I don't believe that we're there. And so I think like trying to combat those spaces preemptively being like one day, these will isolate people who were, we're not drawing lines racially, but we're drawing lines in class or we're drawing lines, whatever, in gender, all of these things. Sure, but that's not where we're at.

And so I understand potentially the hesitancy there, but I tend to think that that is an argument in the hypothetical, where it's like that's not the reality that we live in. We don't live in a post-racial society. We don't live in a post-racial society. We don't live in a society where everyone has been made to be able to access the things that everyone should be able to access. Like there is no baseline platform for everybody. And so like, yeah, I hear the argument, but it is, it does not feel to be founded in the, in our day-to-day life. Yeah, I think that's a great point. I mean, that part I agree with you on. And I think that that's like, that's ultimately why it's, I'm not like, we need to tear down these safe spaces or whatever for students. Like I've never really. Yeah, no, you're not. But you're also like, like. Well, I genuinely do. I when I view them, I see the symmetry we are, if you're drawing spaces that are supposed to be racial safe spaces where people who are not white can feel safe, comfortable, whatever, outside of the gaze of whiteness, like there may always be a need for

that based on our history. Where it's like there may always be a need to offer a space of respite from the realities that have played into our country since its inception. It may always be that you can't take away that we degraded every other race except for white people for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. I just don't know if you can erase that to a point where we're now we're living in some society where, oh, we're however many years removed. And so we don't need to offer anybody a space in which they can step out. I just don't think that that's how trauma works. Like, I don't think that that's how, that that's how like racism works. Like it's, I understand the concept and the ideology, but I don't think that that may ever really come into play. I think you're right.

That there's probably, there's something, you know, there's idealism and there's something maybe naive about that. And I like not to play it, but like, I like you're coming from a position as a, from a straight white cis man who is,

who is also touching on these things from an academic standpoint. And I think that there's something to that too, where it's like, yes, we can have these academic conversations about things theoretically, but that's not the boots on the ground experience. And it may never be. For sure. There's no doubt about it. It's just like the, you know, I think I hold a lot of these things simultaneously in my head because I see our disagreement and then I hear your point and I'm like, yeah, it's a great point. I totally agree with it. You know, I don't, but it's hard for me to turn off that voice in my head that's also like, there's something about this that feels bad or toxic or worrisome or like, and it's not, you know, the, it's really hard because it's not, you know, safe spaces on campus maybe isn't like the best example.

example. I mean, the horror stories that the Christopher Rufos and the people like that use are teachers lining kids up by least to most oppressed in these third graders in classes or whatever. And there's stuff like that that I think most people find repulsive in some way. But I also think that to concede your point, I think there's a danger also in that sort of like idealist perspective on it that living in the hypothetical or living in like the academic removes some emotional present day current component of it that is really important for people to hold on to because it's like, you know, regardless of what the demographic or group or whatever, you know, society in our country is, whatever that demographic is in our country, these are, it's like, there's a group of people saying like, hey,

this thing we need or we want or we desire because of X, Y, and Z. And, you know, I talk a lot about leading with empathy in my politics or trying to do that, which I, you know, I think a lot of people, when I write that in Tangle, I always get the, oh, so you're just like a bleeding heart lib. And I'm like, no, I think people on both sides extend empathy in their politics. They just tend to do it to people on their team.

And I think like your argument there sort of scratches at my empathetic bone where it's like, it's not really about what my academic hypothetical perspective is as much as it's about like, what do these people need? What do they say they need? Or maybe even more acutely, what can you see that might be a necessary good in the present day? I mean, I think that that's like hearing even the example of the teachers. And it's like, yes, that is not productive necessarily. But that's the exception, right, of what's happening in a lot of spaces. And for every story that comes out like that, where it's like, oh, a misguided teacher trying to address racism or address oppression has done this thing that's kind of off, I don't know, I don't even know the word, not a great way to handle the situation.

all of those same videos of like a young black girl getting kicked off her basketball team or her volleyball team or her lacrosse team for wearing braids or getting kicked out of school for having corn roast. Like the reality is like, yeah, we can, we can punish these, like we can worry about protecting this eventual utopia, but, but are we doing that to the detriment of the pains and the, and, and the damage that is still happening as a result of the way that we structured our country? This makes me want to start a podcast with you. Yeah. I mean, I think you make your points very well, and they're all really well taken.

Maybe we should just start doing this every week. I like it for us. I mean, I do feel like we get into these conversations a lot, you know, at dinner, over a glass of wine. I really, I don't know how much we disagree on trans issues. That probably wouldn't have been the first thing that I said. I think we definitely- I think it was just, it made me think of that conversation

where we were kind of, it was maybe think of that conversation where we were kind of, it wasn't like a disagreement about transit issues, really. It was more a disagreement about like what it means to be a woman or be a man. And like, I think that that was where. I definitely have a really basic, like red blooded, straight male view of, of like, I don't know. It's like, you know, I just feel like I think that there's something like, I don't know. It's like, you know, I just feel like, I think that there's something like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I mean it in like a, I don't know, an earnest way. Like, I, I don't think, I think you've expanded my world a lot in terms of just like how I grew up, how I was raised, how I view the world, and my own personal instincts about all these issues of just like, men are supposed to be tough and rugged and not talk about their

feelings and play sports and whatever. I mean, like the classic masculine stereotype. For most of my life, that's just kind of what I've been immersed in and identified with. Like diversity, equity, inclusion stuff, I feel like we argue about sometimes. The affirmative action stuff's hard. I mean, to me, it comes down to like really specific cases that I think draw out certain tensions. I really thought that you were going to say like gun rights or something. But I feel like when do we talk about gun rights? I don't know. But like, I feel like I like guns and sort of, I've asked you a few times. You don't like that. Like that's also, I don't know. Since when?

I mean, I asked you if we could have a gun and you said no. Okay. I'm calling bullshit on that. That's not true. Anytime a friend of yours has come to you and said, I'm thinking of buying a gun, you're the first person to be like, absolutely not. Do you know what happens in a household with a gun? Do you know what happens to suicide rates? Do you know what happens to all these things? I think that that's a little bit of a lie.

Well, no, that's true because most of my friends who ask if they should get a gun or not, I'm like, no, dude. Oh, yeah. And you're what? The pillar of what? I'm not the pillar of anything. I just feel like sometimes, especially like not in an urban setting, but I don't know if we lived in the suburbs or in West Texas.

Dude, what? Like, I think you're trying to be provocative because you have never, ever said any of this before. you're trying to be provocative because you have never ever said any of this before i asked if we could if i could own a firearm if we had a house in west texas right because you were talking about shooting rattlesnakes like sure you could also just have a shovel you could have a bb gun but like that's not talking about buying a gun to have in the suburbs to have in this like no i also don't even think that you believe this. I don't think you've ever actually, I think this is, I'm calling bullshit.

We shot guns in Texas and you loved it. I mean. Well, did you? No, I didn't love it. Like, it was really kind of upsetting. I mean, I, I mean, yeah. I mean, I shot like a semi-automatic gun and it was terrible. All right, we're over an hour, right?

An hour and 15 now. I don't know what you would have guessed if I said. I've got some rapid fire stuff here. Some Valentine's Day rapid fire stuff. All right, how often do you read Tangle in a given week? Actually read Tangle or listen to it? Zero. Zero? Maybe zero. Maybe once, once a week. Wow. My feelings are actually hurt by that. During law school, yeah. I think before law school, probably an easy four. But during law school, maybe one.

But I click open and I scroll down to the very bottom to keep those open rates up for you. We're going to have to talk about this later. I'm sorry. I'm a busy girl. It's 10 to 15 minutes a day. Is it? It is. Is it?

It is. Is it? I very rarely fake those numbers. Okay. Well, yeah. We wish I had 10 to 15 minutes of leisure reading. All right, what's your least favorite thing about me? You chew with your mouth open.

Yeah, I do. I'm working on that. That's a problem for me. I eat too fast, too. You eat too fast. You eat like you're never going to be fed ever again. You've got some poor table manners. I'm the youngest of two brothers.

Oh, my God. Me, too. I have two older brothers two brothers. Oh my God, me too. I have two older brothers also. Grow up. They didn't do to you what my brothers did to me. They didn't steal your food. Oh, they didn't? And you didn't have the appetite.

You never had the appetite I had. That's a sexist thing to say. That's not sexist. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. What are you talking about? What's sexist about that? How do you know about my appetite when I was 12?

What do you know about it? Well, maybe not when you were 12, but today and certainly in the, like, whatever it is. What are you talking about? What's sexist about that? How do you know about my appetite when I was 12? What do you know about it? Well, maybe not when you were 12, but today and certainly in the, like, whatever it is. Yeah, but as a growing person going through puberty, well, you knew about my appetite? You think you ate as much as me when we were both 12 years old? Who knows? Maybe. No way. You definitely, you eat like a bird compared to me now.

What world are you living in? You don't think that's true? No. You have to stop me from eating your food when we're done dinner. Right, but that's not you living in? You don't think that's true? No. You have to stop me from eating your food when we're done dinner. Right, but that's because you don't have any understanding of your limits of your body. Okay, well, I said compared to me. But that's not your actual hunger rate. Sometimes you just eat and eat. There's no hunger involved. All right, favorite thing about me. Now you have to be nice, see? See what I did?

Can we circle back? No. No, I'm still in a mean mindset. No, I don't care. That's the point. You have to say something nice. Why is this so hard? All the other questions are so easy.

It's not hard. It's just like this is a podcast. People are going to listen to it. Yeah, so? I don't know. I want to say something like super gushy to strangers. I'll give you a minute. I, what's my favorite thing about you? Yeah.

You're like a fantastic husband. Thank you. You make me feel very loved and cared for. And I think, I wish everyone could see you're so red right now. Yeah, I mean, we fell in love because you were like the first person to ever make me feel safe. Thanks. I love you.

That's really nice. All right. What's, what's your, uh, the favorite gift I've ever given you? Oh, gift? Yeah. Present. Okay. I love my engagement ring.

And then I, well, you're going to say a stuffed animal. Yeah. You gonna say a stuffed animal yeah you gave me a stuffed animal dinosaur and it it rocks me to this day you can't sleep without him okay this is a podcast

for he has a stuffed dinosaur she can't sleep without Isaac slips with a chimpanzee tucked underneath his arm every night and he asks for it he says

where's chimpy what's your what about least favorite gift I've ever given you? Oh my, there are many. I'm a notoriously out of pocket gift giver. Horrific, horrific gift.

I've done some bad stuff over the years. One year you gave me a cookbook that I didn't cook with with a strange butterfly inside and a pair of leather flip flops. That was particularly harsh.

That was bad. What are some other bad ones? That's pretty bad. You gave me that. You bought me a strange painted elephant picture that's hung in every apartment that we've had that you insisted on hanging up. It's not hanging up in this apartment.

Sure isn't. You finally. It sure isn't. I bought that in Thailand. Yeah, I bought that in Thailand. That was a great gift. Okay. What's your favorite thing about me?

My favorite thing about you? Yeah. I mean. See, it's hard. Yeah, it is hard yeah it's hard it is hard yeah I would say I think your empathy is the thing that I admire the most about you like when I think about the part of you that I am most impressed by and like genuinely moved by it's that you have this unbelievable capacity I mean I think anybody who listened to this podcast just heard it in the context of like the political discussions we have, but I think you have an

unbelievable capacity to put yourself in the shoes of other people and imagine what their world is like and genuinely feel for them in a really authentic way that I don't have that like I have to practice. And yeah, and I think that that's like really beautiful. And I also, I find it really challenging because I think you're, again, just like the conversations we just had, I think you're really good at sort of poking that empathetic bone in other people too. Like you're good at framing things like that. Like, well, think about what it's like to be them. Imagine what they're feeling right now. And that comes out, you know, most often not in like political ways, but just in day-to-day stuff where I think I'm being thoughtful and then you make me realize that I'm not, I'm not being nearly as thoughtful as I think

I'm being. Right. But usually that's about like like are you being thoughtful with me yeah but not just with you with that I mean with with the world with people and like and and again like I think it I especially admire it because it's something that I personally try and do and personally take a little bit of pride in and then you're just way better at it than me. I think my favorite thing about you is probably just how you talk, like your general inner, like the way you interact with people. Like I love being in social situations with you. Like when I go out or I'm like at a party or whatever, like go to dinner or something and you're not there, I'm always like wishing that you were there. Yeah. I just, you're, I think you're, you're really, you're very outgoing.

You're a quick talker. You're a classic New York girl with like your Jersey girl with your big, yeah, both, but you are more classic Jersey girl with like the hoops and the finger pointing and the long nails and like some attitude. And I think that was like the first thing that I was really attracted to. And I think it's to this day, I think it's my favorite thing about you is that you're tenacious. You've got some fire inside,

which is really nice too. And it's fun to be around. Thanks. You're welcome. See, I wish they could see you now. All right, last two Describe your ideal date. This is a cheat. It's not a cheat.

I mean, yeah. I shouldn't have to just... Because now you have it on record and you can just cash in on this. For sure. This is a pretty cliche question, though. Describe your ideal date. I mean, this is the one I put the least thought into. I love a bougie cocktail.

I think that I love pretending that I'm really fancy. And so that would mean like dressing up really nice, going to like a fancy cocktail bar, sitting at the bar, having like a really beautifully made cocktail and then going to dinner, like an early dinner and sit outside. It's warm when we're having this date.

Sit outside, eat dinner dinner sit down slow casually no rushing you're not rushing eating i don't ever have to talk to you and your mouth full of millions of foods slow meals slow having coffee after the fact sipping coffee that's nice worst date i've ever taken you on we We all know this one. This is the one I do know an answer to. For my birthday, you told me you were taking me to a beautiful Italian restaurant. You look so embarrassed. A beautiful Italian restaurant. I am wearing like a black cocktail dress, this like low neck cocktail dress, heels, makeup, hair, the whole thing. I'm like, we're going out.

We're in this cab. We go to have drinks at my friend's bar beforehand. Get in the cab. We go and we're pulling into Little Italy. And I was like, oh, this is cute. Like we'll go to like some little Italian spot in Little Italy. We can walk around. And we pull up to a place that is essentially an Olive Garden, like an off-brand Olive Garden.

And Isaac is trying to pretend like it's fine, but it's like me in a black cocktail dress and every tourist that's ever stumbled into New York in their cargo shorts. And I am miserable. And we order all this food, and the food is bad. It is horrible food, bland, tasteless, expensive as shit. And I think I just started crying at the table. You did. Yeah, you cried right there.

I cried. Yeah. I mean, there was so much hype. You're like, I'm taking you to this quaint little hole-in-the-wall Italian spot. And then it was an Olive Garden. I got bamboozled by a trip advisor or something. I literally couldn't even tell you how I ended up doing that.

But I remember walking in and thinking I just made one of the biggest mistakes in my life. Horrific. I'm sorry about that one. Well, listen. It's Valentine's Day. I just want to say this is a classic Isaac sign-off. It's like, well, listen. It's Valentine's Day. I just want to say like, this is an Isaac, a classic Isaac sign off. It's like, well, listen.

It's Valentine's Day. I love you very much. I thought about, like I said, this was one of the more challenging interviews I've ever had to prepare for. So I thought a lot about like questions, what we talk about. You know, I knew that I know we disagree on all sorts of stuff and I figured we'd find a way to get into that, which I think we did pretty organically.

And then I was thinking about how do I end this podcast, which I wasn't totally sure what to do. And then I had an idea. And so I thought maybe this would be a good Valentine's Day really like turn the mush up to 10 so this is what I thought of Isaac is pulling out

an actual piece of paper right now oh no do you know what this is? are these our vows? oh oh no we had a COVID wedding Do you know what this is? Are these our vows? Oh, no. We had a COVID wedding, and there were a lot of people that we really love who weren't there. And I thought maybe it's been almost two years now since we've been married. We could revisit our vows on this Valentine's Day.

I'm going to cry for sure. For the whole world. I think you should go first. No. Yeah. You go first. No, because you want to hear about you at the end as the close-off. Okay.

Sorry, excuse my rustling. You think you can get through this? Yeah, for sure. Isaac, so often when we look back at our story, I have said, who would have thought? As if the chances of our ending up together were truly unimaginable. But standing here today, six years after our first date, 11 years after your Facebook friend request, I think my response has changed. It seems so incredibly obvious that this is where we would be, and that it would be you all along. I could never have loved someone who didn't make me laugh, who wouldn't see my small but mighty family as indispensable, or someone who would be put off by my sharp but charming attitude.

Safety is not a particularly romantic word, but you have made the world safe enough for me to take chances, to live bigger and bolder than I ever have. I used to be so proud that I could take care of myself on my own, that I didn't need anyone. But our love and your love has taught me that nothing could be better or braver than how happy I am to need you. I think back to our beginning and how carefully you solidified yourself as someone I could depend on. How you walked patiently next to me through the streets of Manhattan, around bookstores and museums, or how you sat across from me in restaurants or side by side in Central Park, never pushing, just gently reminding me each time I turned my head that you were still there.

Our love wasn't made in a single glance or a kiss or a day. It was a slow burn, a steady, methodical layering of togetherness that bonded us so gently that at first I didn't even realize. But on February 12th, oh my god. See? But on February 12th, 2016, I did. I was upstairs at Old Broadway Synagogue, an Episcopalian celebrating Shabbat in an Orthodox shul in Harlem. And I looked over the railing at you, sitting below, and thought, that's him.

The process was slow, but the moment was fast. I loved you and love you so much. Everyone knows I'm more comfortable teasing than praising you because someone's got to keep that ego in check. But today I'm trying something new. Isaac, I am so amazed by you. You live your life like the world is new and everything is beautiful. Your friends and family feel that to be with you is to be loved. You have built a business that is not just successful but thriving, all because you had the courage to bet on yourself.

During the hardest days, I watched you drag yourself out of bed and prove to yourself that it would be worth it. I was there in our beautiful home, struck by how incredibly lucky I am to be the person a man like you depends on. And I am so proud of you. I have loved being your friend, girlfriend, and fiancé. And when we moved in together, we sat down and we wrote house rules. I looked over them recently, and while they're definitely a couple about dishes, most of them are about the kind of home you wanted to build.

Rules about hosting dinners and lighting candles and brushing our teeth together every night. I wanted my vows to be like that. Promises about the life we will build. So here we go. I promise to always laugh with you even when I'm tired or angry or hungry. I promise. I promise. I promise to speak when you need encouragement

and listen when you need help. I promise to love you when it's easy and love you even harder when it's not. I promise to protect our togetherness and respect our space. I promise to celebrate you as a partner, as a writer, and as a friend. I promise to never let you wear

an extra large t-shirt, cargo shorts or puka shell necklace ever again. I promise we will always have a garden to grow flowers and herbs and peppers. And I promise that someday we will have another fish. And most of all, I promise our babies will grow up knowing exactly what soulmates look like. I love you, kid.

I love you. You're a really beautiful writer. You don't get enough credit for that. Well, it's hard when you're married to one. All right, now I wish I went first. Phoebe, nothing I can say here right now will fill up the cup the way it should, but I'm going to try anyway. You've taught me how to be gentler with people. You've taught me to slow down, to look around, to stop working, and give myself space to be. You've taught me to have higher standards for what vacation means, for what constitutes a good dinner, for what kindness is, for what communicating your feelings looks like. You've taught me to lower my

standards substantially for what qualifies as a good TV show or a full day of activities. You've given me a brilliant, unwavering group of friends I didn't realize I needed, but I did. Two more brothers to seek out debauchery and petty crimes with, another mother radiating with infinite love, another father who can find the dark humor in the worst of life's moments. You've given me hope. Before I met you, before we started falling in love, I didn't actually believe people like you existed. People who really cared. People whose actions matched their words. People who live consistently by a code of ethics of what is right and wrong, just and unjust, fair and unfair. People who really were moved to tears by the smallest things.

An elderly couple holding hands, a tiny ceramic bowl to hold things, a kiss on the cheek, or in the case of a few days ago, a family of groundhogs in the front yard. When I think of you, I think of empathy. You are empathy embodied, and it is the thing about you that I love most. You have the uncanny ability to access the feelings and needs of those around you, and you use that ability for good, to comfort friends, to help people who need it, to better understand your partner. I'm amazed that you can love how you love despite it all, that in the midst of four full-time lives, going to school full-time, working full-time, studying to take your LSATs full-time, that's a moment in time there,

well, and planning a wedding with little or unhelpful help from your idiot fiance full-time, you take the time to defend the people you feel need protection, to act on the causes you believe in, to FaceTime a friend for two hours so they can talk about their crappy date. So now I'm asked to stand up here and make a vow, a promise, to a woman that seems to already understand what's in my heart better than I do. Phoebe Padgett, I promise to love your heart seems to already understand what's in my heart better than I do. Phoebe Padgett, I promise to love your heart, to cradle and encourage it, to try and hold you steady when it's overflowing and about to burst. I promise to try and chew with my mouth closed.

Real theme. To learn to clean while I cook, to remember to turn all the lights out when I come to bed. I promise to protect you, to walk on the street side, to lock up the house, to do my best to keep the ugly, scary things in this world as far away as I can. I promise to ask how you're doing and take off your socks when you're too tired to. I promise to accept that some nights I'll have to watch Gilmore Girls instead of the NBA. But most of all, I promise to love you. I promise to laugh at all your accents and jokes and dances. I promise to learn to say my feelings out loud. I promise to let work be interrupted for life.

I promise to dance, starting tonight, for as long as we can stand. I promise to kiss your nose and ask how you're doing and surprise you with something kind like flowers or chocolate or a cold Diet Coke or a bag of Lay's potato chips. kind like flowers or chocolate or a cold diet Coke or a bag of Lay's potato chips. I promise to try best I can to love you and care for you the way you love and feel and care for the world around you. And I promise to do it for as long as I live. I love you. Love you too. Happy Valentine's Day. I think that's it. That's a good way to finish. See, we love each other. Yeah. All right, everybody. finish see we love each other yeah all right everybody we'll be right back. holla do the most holla don't more festive less frantic get deals for every occasion with doordash based on charles u's award-winning book interior chinatown follows the story of willis woo a

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