Tangle - Valentine's Day Special - Isaac and Phoebe reflect on big changes

Episode Date: February 14, 2026

Three years ago, I had a fun idea for Valentine’s Day: I would bring my wife Phoebe on the Tangle podcast.My idea was that the two of us could sit down, have a glass of wine, and talk about our lives, Tangle, Phoebe’s first year of law school, a little bit of politics, and have a few good laughs. But, as I probably should have expected, the show took on some more depth. We got very personal. We talked about the challenges of our relationship, of our move from New York to Philly, and of trying to bounce back in the post-Covid world.Immediately after publishing the episode, I was inundated with emails from people saying how much they loved the episode, how candid it was, and how interesting my very smart and quick-witted wife was as a guest. So, in 2024, we did it again. And then again in 2025. And now, in 2026, with the fourth-ever Valentine’s Day podcast, I think we can officially call it a tradition.Last year, when we recorded the podcast, we were less than a month into having our first child, and Phoebe was entering her last semester of law school. This year, we discussed Phoebe’s experience so far as a public defender, her thoughts on cash bail, what has surprised her about the job, how she feels defending people guilty of real crimes, and what being a mom and an attorney is like. We then shared our favorite things about our son and some nice things about each other (because it’s Valentine’s Day, after all). Also, we break some personal news.So, today, I’d like to say Happy Valentine’s Day. I hope you enjoy the episode (and this new tradition). Also, Phoebe says if the comments section is mean, she’s not coming back — so be nice.Ad-free podcasts are here!To listen to this podcast ad-free, and to enjoy our subscriber only premium content, go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Jon Lall.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Lindsey Knuth, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast. Today's a very special episode. Three years ago, I had a fun idea for Valentine's Day. I would bring my wife, Phoebe, onto the Tangle podcast. My idea was that two of us could sit down, have a glass of wine, talk about our lives, Tangle, Phoebe's first year of law school, a little bit of politics, and maybe have a few good laughs. But as I probably should have expected, this show took on some more depth. We got very personal. We talked about the challenges of our relationship, of our move from New York to Philly, and of trying to bounce back in the post-COVID world.

Immediately after publishing the episode, I was inundated with emails from people saying how much they loved it, how candid it was, and how interesting my very smart and quick-witted wife was as a guest. So in 2024, we did it again, and then again in 2025. And now, in 26, with the fourth ever Valentine's Day podcast, I think we can officially call it a tradition. Last year, when we recorded the podcast, we were less than a month into having our first child, and Phoebe was entering her last semester of law school. This year, we discussed Phoebe's experience so far as a public defender, her thoughts on cash bail, what has surprised her about the job and how she feels defending people, guilty of real crimes, and of course, what being a mom and an attorney is like.

Then we shared our favorite things about our son and some nice things about each other, because it's Valentine's Day after all. And also, we broke a little bit of personal news. So today, I'd like to say, happy Valentine's Day. I hope you enjoy the episode and this new tradition. Also, Phoebe says if the comment section is mean, she's not coming back. So be nice. With that, here's my Valentine's Day episode with my wife. Phoebe. We're here. Can we cheers?

Yes. Hi. Happy Valentine's Day? Be Valentine's Day. Should we start by talking about our day? Is that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard your day, so.

I can go first? Yeah. I took notes in my phone about what happened today. I had a horrific day today. There's no other way to play. put it. So I took some, I wrote, I wrote down some things to make sure. So long, eyes. No, no. That whole thing. That was a slack message I sent the team to be funny.

Our day started with our son, Omri, our beautiful, healthy, amazing baby boy who we're blessed to have. We love him. He woke up at 4 a.m. this morning. Wow, you sound terrible. Are you okay? You're sick. Yeah. I mean, I have not been well since maybe August. I was just thinking about how I lost my voice two weeks ago. I didn't think you could lose it again so quick. Yeah. You're like Doc Holiday. You're drinking bourbon to get through it.

Amri woke up at 4 a.m. today. Correct. He would not go back to sleep. That's how the day started. I came downstairs and realized quickly that I had sent the addition of press pass, which I thought I had scheduled for 3 p.m. Eastern at 3 a.m. So the first thing that happened was that I opened my computer and realized I'd made a huge mistake by sending a newsletter to people at 3 in the morning. I ran into our good friend, Neve today, at Center City Pediatrics.

And she was up sick with her baby and was like, I got an email from you at 3 a.m. That was kind of weird. And I was like, yep, huge mistake. Apologies. 8 a.m. a news article dropped. about tangles slowing growth by the folks at a media operator, whom I love awesome people over there. I was hoping the story was going to be a little bit more about some strategy stuff we were doing and how we were adjusting to the environment.

But the headline was something like Tangle faces stagnant growth for first time ever. So that- Tangle plummeting. Yeah, so that happened. How look bad. Yeah. And then- Company crash.

Company crash, yeah. And then I took Omri to the doctor at 8 a.m. And they said he had a double ear infection and pink eye. So now it's 8.30 a.m. And so far there's been a terrible news article that came out about Tangle. I've woken up at 4 a.m. My son is very, very sick, which means I can't take him to daycare because he has pink eye. And what was the other one?

Oh, and I screwed up press pass. And it is like not 8.30 in the morning yet. So then I take Omri. You know, he's really sick. He can't. He had an allergic reaction to amoxicillin a week ago. For his ear infection. For the ear infection that we thought was gone, which is now back.

And so he can't take amoxicillin, so he has to get new meds. So there's Walgreens across from the center city, and I thought, I'll be really smart. I'll send his medicine to the CVS near our house. And then by the time I walk there, the prescription will be ready. Because, you know, sometimes you have to wait like 15 minutes. So I get to CVS and I realize the pharmacy's not open. until 9 a.m. at CVS. So I've made a mistake.

Omri's fussing. He's getting really upset in the stroller because he has a double ear infection in pink eye and he's unmedicated at this point. And then unmedicated, yeah. And then he falls asleep in the stroller, which is terrible because I know now his nap is ruined, his first morning nap.

So I take him home as we're entering the house, the garage. door opens, which wakes him up, and then I rush him upstairs and put him in his sleep sack and try to run down for a nap. He refuses naturally. He then is totally cooked. My dad calls me, he's supposed to come help, says he's running late, so he won't be there for like another hour. Omri has learned to climb the stairs recently, so he's insatiably going up and down the stairs. I'm building blockades around the stairs, trying to keep him from going up. He won't stop.

removing the chairs and climbing up. So I can't get any work done. Then in the middle of the newsletter, getting ready to get sent out, the mechanic calls me and says, hey, why haven't you come pick up your car, which I forgot about, because we brought the car in for an inspection. So I rushed to go get the car, which was okay. That was like the one good thing that happened this morning. And then I go to grab the car where the mechanic has parked it, and there's a truck from some city worker blocking the car in. So I have to go walk on the block, find the city worker to come move his truck. He moves it. I'm like halfway done. I tried to record the podcast this morning. The microphone was broken, the one that I had at home. So I couldn't do that. So I had to ask Will to

record a question that I was personally answering in the newsletter and on the podcast. Now it's like 1130 a.30 a.m. You're in court all day, which we're going to talk about in a second. I'm then on a call, like a very important business-oriented call, we'll just say. And I got a call from our lawyer who is helping us close on a house, which we'll probably talk about, to say that he thinks the seller is intentionally hiding mold in the house. So I get that phone call in the middle of this. Not intentionally hiding mold in the house. He said that the seller sent a report about the local.

mold remediation that was happening in the basement before we closed on the house and had not shared the final pages of the report, which when he called the mold company, he found out were kind of worrisome. Like, you should tear down some more walls, do some more exploration. So I'm like, oh my God. Now the house stuff is all ruined and up in the air. The toilets clogged in our house. So a plumber had to come resolve that. My father, whom I love, was like down there trying to plunge it himself despite like the out of order sign on the door of like just stay out of this bathroom call the call the plumber he comes over your mom texts us to let us know that she can't take care of Omri on the day that we need to go close for the house so now our child care is just

falling through um all of this is happening when I have a news nation hit that I did today that I'm like trying to prepare for so it's already like a very stressful day. and yeah, I think that's mostly it. Surgery, this all happened before 2 o'clock. Noah's surgeries. This all happened before 2 o'clock. This all happened before 2 o'clock today. Yeah.

And then you were unavailable because you were in court. Last time we spoke, you had just, last time we did this show is February last year. So Omri was like six weeks old. If that. Four weeks old. You were still in law school. Yeah.

Now you're a lawyer. Yeah. So you texted me and you said, I'm having an insane day. I can't get out of court. Yeah. Do you want to share what happened? This is just a normal day in our house. Yeah, I think that's what also happened to me with you reading this list.

I kept on waiting for it to feel like, oh, where's the punchline? Where's like the really crazy thing? Kind of felt like a bus. Because it's just, yeah. In retrospect, it was kind of a bad story. But all these things just piled up. I know. And then I'm like, I'm here.

I'm trying to do the stay-at-home dad thing with Omri. It's a complete shit show. And I'm texting you like, you're saying, how are things going? I'm like, well, basically everything that could possibly have gone wrong this morning has gone wrong. and he is, I mean, like, drain, like his eyes are so goofy. They're just like dripping green goop and he's coughing and he can't nap and he's like rubbing his little ears and doing his... So pathetic and sad.

It's really pathetic and sad, yeah. But do you want to tell me about your day in court? What was happening while I was doing all that? So basically, I'm in. I'm help working. I'm at the public defenders. And the public defenders in Philly, they have this program called the Accelerated Mistaminer Program,

which is this really incredible program where otherwise that kind of nonviolent misdemeanor. So retail thefts, other thefts, possession of drugs, things like that, get diverted into this program where rather than taking your case to trial, a client can accept into the program, and they either they meet with a social worker, social worker evaluates them either for some sort of drug treatment or if drug treatment isn't appropriate, then they get referred to complete some level of community service.

If they complete all that, then the case gets withdrawn, which is, why are you laughing? It's just like it's complicated in some ways. That sounds like a lot. Comparatively, no. Comparatively no, but yeah. I mean, I guess like the initial day is more. more complicated than going and sitting in a courtroom potentially. But I mean, the outcome is that, like, if a client accepts into this program, completes the program, let's say they complete their treatment or they complete, you know, 24 hours of community service, then that case gets withdrawn. And so it's off their record. And so they don't have a conviction. They don't have anything. And so then I, then, like, our office files for an expungement in that case is completely removed from their record at all. So it's an incredible program in the sense that, like,

Someone who would otherwise in any other kind of jurisdiction or any other district or whatever, even in the counties, would otherwise get sent into a trial room and likely, not likely, but could get found guilty. All of those offenses have jail time attached. They probably wouldn't get jail time, but they could. And these people are like all getting diverted away from that. And they're getting linked up with drug treatment, with mental health treatment, with community service. if it's not appropriate. And like, it's an amazing program. But understandably, when you have like 120 people,

we had like 100 people coming through the room today, trying to get people to meet with social workers, you're running around the room, someone needs your attention, someone's not in a good way. Like you have a bunch of people who are coming in various different states showing up to the courtroom. Some people need to be seen immediately.

Some people are like totally good. They've completed all their paperwork. Some people, this is their fifth listing, and they've never gone to their meetings or they've never completed any community service. There's a big swath of experience. And today is just like one of those days where you're just like,

everyone needs something today. And it was just like one of those days where we were stuck in court for a very long time. Not stuck, but like we were there for a very long time. And it was just a lot of complicated things. A lot of people needed help. And like it's really, easy to get frustrated in that moment with clients, like what people were coming in and they're

mad at you about something that you have nothing to do with. But then like I try to be really good about being like, this is a really, really bad day in this person's life. The worst probably. Maybe. One of them. Yeah, like maybe one of the worst days. They have to, they've been charged with a crime. They get sent over here. It's probably something relatively insignificant. I'm trying to explain to them this program. They're. looking at why do I have to go to drug, I have to go to drug treatment?

Are you sending me to a detox? Are you sending me to a rehab? Which is like, now what's going on. And people are understandably wary and angry or also like in various states of like crisis.

We had like clients today who are in like in a mental health crisis in the room. And you got to find a way to make that work and. Can you share anything about? what happened today and the jam you might be in now? No. I don't think I can right now. Tough.

That's a good story. It's an interesting story. Yeah, it's interesting. You can't say anything? I am curious, I guess, to maybe stay here for a second. I mean, we've been, again, this is the fourth year we've done this. So we got all three years of law school. Yeah.

And now this is the first one. where you're actually an attorney and you're practicing. Can you, you've always wanted to do public defense. I mean, this is like, this is why you did this. Can you talk maybe a little bit about like what's been your, what's met your expectations and what's been different? I mean, I'm interested like how, how you think it's been, how you expected it to be and how maybe it hasn't been.

I don't know. I think it kind of, I think it all met my expectations in the sense of the workload, the emotional toll, how hard it can be, how frustrating it can be in moments, just how intense. I think something that I didn't necessarily expect was how, is that really stupid, but just like how human it all is. you know, where it's like you think about this and you're like, oh, I'm going to go and represent this person. And they've been charged with drug dealing and I'm going to get this case dismissed and this and this and this. And like you approach you from this place that's this very kind of like for a lot of PDs very morally like this is like your moral ethical code. You're like I believe in this work. I believe in the way that we're protecting the constitution.

I believe or I don't believe in jail. I don't believe in cash bail. I don't believe in all these things. and that's kind of like you're operating in this kind of, I don't know, like this code of ethics for yourself. But then you get into the work a little bit and you realize there's this entire other level of like, I don't like this client. This client is an asshole, you know? Like this guy's kind of a jerk.

And you have to like deal with the human aspect of like, I'm this person's lawyer and this person needs my service. and we're working together, and I'm trying to treat them respectfully, and they're disrespecting me. But I also have to be aware of the fact that, again, this is a bad day in their life. And they're probably not mad at me. But in another room, in another world, I would never let someone speak to me like this.

And there's an interesting dynamic of, like, trying to look at this person and say, like, okay, does this person need to just unload and be mad and yell at me for a while, and we'll be able to come down? Or is this a person who I can say, listen, you can't talk to me like that? And like, there are some clients when you get a feel for them, you have to be like, you can't talk to me like that. Like, that's not the way that this is going to go.

Like, I had a client today who was explaining to him the program and treatment. He was very angry about what the police had said and this and this and this. He's very angry. He's yelling at me. He's yelling about people being liars. and I he said something about like I'd rather go to jail and so I asked him I said is that how you actually feel are you saying that you would rather take this to trial and risk going to jail over this and he flew off the handle he was like yes that's serious yes that's what I'm talking about and I had to be like sir there's a lot of me calling people sir sir this is a genuine question I'm trying to gauge what you want out of this case this is a real question I'm asking you, I'm not being flip. Like, and that guy knew, I got a sense in that moment that I could react to him like that.

But there are a lot of moments where I'm like, this person needs me to be, like, passive and let them be mad at me and get upset and be upset and be angry and have all that. And so, like, there's a really interesting dynamic of being like, just the human interpersonal part of it where it's like, I'm dealing with people. who are on varying spectrums of whether they treat me well or not. And for the most part, I think everyone, not everyone, for the most part, I think people in general treat me very well.

But I'm also very early in my career, and I have a lot of patience because I've been doing this for a very short amount of time. So I think I have a lot of grace that attorneys who have been doing this for 20 years may not have. It's interesting to hear you talk about that human element of it.

I mean, do you find, do you feel like it's harder to do the job you're doing when you're representing somebody that you think is guilty of the crime they're being accused of? No.

That doesn't get to you at all. No. I mean, at this level, no. I mean, the way that our office works is I'm handling preliminary hearings for pretty, like, A lot of his drug dealing, a lot of its possession of a gun, sometimes it's aggravated assault. Lots of times it's simple assault. Lots of theft. And so, like, no, I don't care if you're selling weed. I don't care if you're selling heroin. Like, that doesn't impact the way that we prepare for this.

It doesn't impact the way that, like, I attack the commonwealth. You say you don't care. You might want to expand on that? Like, it doesn't offend me that that person is selling drugs. Because for the most part, that person is not like the kingpin. The person that I'm representing is someone who's standing on the corner and is selling $5, like, flip tops of crack. Yeah. Like, no, I don't have, like, a huge moral upset about that. They're not the ones you're mad at, like, when you think about addiction and, like, the...

No, and, no, no. And honestly, like, maybe this is a little bit of a hot take, but I don't, in terms of, like, the people around me and people in my life who have struggled with addiction, like, I never, I'm not angry. I'm not angry at drug dealers. I get angry at, like, big pharma. Like, I get mad at the idea of someone being prescribed percocet without any thought or opiates. I don't have the same. thought in terms of like drug dealers. That's interesting. Yeah. I definitely feel angry towards them. I think I think the difference for me is that I don't feel that they owe us anything in the same way that I think like a pharmaceutical company owes us.

Like they have a responsibility. If they're going to be bringing products to a doctor who's going to be prescribing, that for me feels like a clear responsibility of like, you should be aware of what's going to happen to people. Yeah, but they're, I mean, they're maybe not like the typical clients that you're getting who can't, you know, they don't have the money to represent themselves. And I mean, we know, especially in a city like Philadelphia, a lot of the people who are dealing drugs are sort of products of the circumstances they were born into. I mean, I'm on board with that.

But, like, the kingpin, quote, I mean, there are drug dealers in Philly who are making money hand over fist, knowing full well, they're destroying communities, and it's worth it to them because they might make a few hundred thousand dollars or a few million dollars a year. And like, I mean, those people are scumbags to me. I definitely have anger towards those people. Yeah. I mean, I get that. I think, and maybe I've just, I'm not like zooming out enough, but I think like because

my experience is so often. with people who are operating at these lower levels. Like, I really don't. Like, it's short. Like, that person who's kind of like the master puppeteers, pulling the strings and feeding all the fentanyl into Kensington and into Philadelphia. Like, yeah, that's horrible.

But there's a million other layers of people who are more immediately, like, on the ground and interacting and on the corners and all of this and getting locked up and coming into my office. You know. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. So, I mean, it's interesting. Like, I feel a little bit on both sides of it because, I mean, we talk about this all the time.

There's like the stuff we talk about at dinner. But, like, I, I love and admire, I mean, this is the Valentine's Day podcast, so I should say it, I'm unbelievably proud of you. I mean, I think what you're doing is amazing, and I believe in it so much. Not just because of the fact that, like, one of my most extreme political views is the prison stuff. I mean, obviously, long-time tango listeners know this. When it comes to prison, I am a woke lib. Like, humans should not be locked in cages. And so I don't think that that's like a system.

I don't have a better solution, right? now, but I also don't think that's a solution that is like long-term good for the human race. And I feel that kind of in my bones. But more than like, even from a more sort of libertarian or even like conservative small government sense, the job you do is amazing because it's like the government can't put you in jail unless they can prove you're guilty. And there's this whole class of people who don't get defended or don't have. have the money or resources to defend themselves when the government comes for them. And you are like the frontline person who's coming to court and saying, prove it. And if the government's case

isn't good enough to put somebody in jail, then they shouldn't be allowed to put somebody in jail. And when somebody's guilty and the government takes the time to prove that they're guilty, then they'll go to jail. And like, justice will be done if you think that's justice. But like, you do this incredible job of saying, you know, and like you already referenced the Constitution earlier, which I love. It's like, and I know you get kind of like emotional and in your feelings about the Constitution and like your, I love that you care about it so much because I do too. So when I think about these low level heroin dealers, just to use like the hypothetical, I mean, it's not like that. You represent some of these people.

I love and appreciate that there is somebody who's qualified and cares about them, who's defending them against charges, and I don't think they should go to jail, obviously, unless the government can prove that they did the thing they're claiming they did. At the same time, I do think, like, those people have some level of agency, and I think if I were in your shoes, I would have mixed feelings about representing them in some ways. Like, it's interesting to hear you be like, no. Like, firm, black and white, it doesn't matter. I have a job. I mean, I respect it, but I've never really heard you say it

in those terms that clearly. And I think I would definitely have mixed feelings. I mean, obviously, it gets more complicated when you're talking about, like, murder or rape or sexual assault or whatever. But even for, like, drug dealing, I think, you know, that's a, that's not a victimless crime. People are people who have easy access to drugs by them. And if you're like a low level heroin dealer and you're slinging stuff that's laced with fentanyl, you're killing people. Like, they're ODing and dying. They're not killing people. Like, I understand what you're saying that you're like providing a product that's that could kill someone. But I think like it is a very different thing. Like, I think it's a little bit wild to say like they're killing people.

because well okay so let me okay let me what's your real question i mean that's my real question but i guess to maybe try and draw an analogy somebody who drives recklessly and gets in a car accident and kill somebody like we have that's like vehicular manslaughter i don't know you tell me i think But whatever, it's second-degree murder or something. I don't know what you'd... Okay. All right. But like that person made a decision that was risky.

They know that there's risk in what they're doing, driving recklessly. They paid the ultimate price. They killed somebody. Like a drug dealer knows that they're selling a product that people die. Like there's an heroin dealer in Philadelphia who doesn't know that his product could kill people. but they do it to make money. And there's a risk-reward calculation there. And some of the people, they sell those drugs to die.

So, like, yeah, I blame them in some sense for that. I think it's a different, like, the analogy that you have is flawed. Because the other part of this is that the buyer also has agency. True. The buyer is coming to this person and saying, give me this product that you and I both know could kill me. Right? and I think there's like

I want to be cautious with this conversation because I think there's like there's a way of like blaming the addict and also infantilizing them right that's a human being who's making a decision and are they in the throes of an addiction

that is changing their one of our spinners one of Omory spinners just fell off the fridge but like okay but to go back like is that person in the throes of addiction is that impacting massively the way they make decisions. Absolutely. But that person is also a human being with agency, with decision making, with willpower, who is going to that person and saying,

here's my $5. Okay, what about this? A person's at a bar and they're like really drunk, like visibly wasted, and the bartender serves them when they're like hammered, What? Dram shop loss. That's what that is. What are they called? Dram shop. That's when you hold the bar accountable for serving someone who's visibly intoxicated and then they go get in a car accident or something, then the establishment can be kept, can be held liable.

So that feels like a close analogy. Like a person has agency. They're drunk. They're choosing to order drinks to the bar. Bartender knows the thing that they're giving them could hurt them and they make a decision. I'll take the $10 or the tip or whatever. And then that person leaves drunken. Like, we hold the bar accountable.

I think the difference for me is the person who's, the circumstances of the person who's dealing. And, like, I think, again, like, I'm not trying to infantilize a group of people who decide to drug. Like, you're a human, you're a grown person who's made that decision. I'm not trying to, like, eliminate the agency of making that decision and saying, like, you have no responsibility in doing that. But I think a lot of the experiences that I've had are these are people who are young or people who are formerly convicted who have an incredibly difficult time finding work, right? So if you or themselves are an addict.

So you have a lot of people who are selling who are also using. You have people who are formally incarcerated or have records who are not able to find any sort of high paying work. And then you have people who are in their 20s. and they're being offered an opportunity. Maybe they haven't graduated high school. Maybe they don't go to college. Maybe they have a kid. Maybe they have a family.

And maybe they have a record as well. And then you're offering, they have this opportunity to make quick, fast, and lots of money, depending on what they do. Or they could go and work 40 hours a week and make shit money and barely be able to pay their rent. So like, when you think about the decision for that, right, That person's, if you're asking about like the moral decision that that dealer is making,

that person is probably in that moment choosing themselves. They're saying, I'm going to do this because this is what I need to take care of me. Right? Yeah. And so it's whether you want to like place moral blame on that and whether like, that's fine. But that person often, in my experience, has a lot of other circumstances that make that decision. more nuanced. And oftentimes it's, they've already been convicted of something.

And they can't get a job. Or nothing that pays the same amount. And they have rent. Or they have a kid. Or they have a family member who's sick who lives with them. And so it's like, it's less of an option than you imagine. You could. You could totally go to straight and narrow and say,

I'm going to get whatever job I can get, which may take me seven months, to get a job that pays me minimum wage and I'm going to work 40 hours a week and live paycheck to paycheck. But I think that's also kind of like, I don't know. I don't know that I would do that. I don't know if someone offered me an opportunity

where I was in a bad way. Someone said, you can do this and you'll make the money that you need and you'll be able to pay your rent and you'll be able to do this. Or you can do it the good way and keep struggling. Do you find that most of your clients

are people who have calculations like that? Like it's not more selfish than that for a lot of people or it's not more like maybe they have a job and they can make ends meet, but they really want to be rich instead and they go sell drugs to do that? No. I don't have any clients for like, I'm just in it.

I mean, not any, but like I'm sure there's someone. but no I think that's a little bit of a trope I'm not saying I believe that trope I mean I'm you're in you're in the system

so I'm asking somebody with first hand experience I mean I don't believe that And like this is all to say Like my experience is limited And my experience is set to like A very kind of like Again these kind of like misdemeanor

Early felony Like again We're talking about like Street dealers right That's like different, right? So I'm not, I'm not saying that there's nobody. I'm saying based on my experience, no, based on my experiences are, like, I think this is what also makes it complicated. And maybe this is just like the bias coming in for me is a lot of these guys, like, really sweet guys. They're really

sweet. They're like good. And like, I just, I know I just told this story about people getting mad, but there are a lot of guys who are on the phone who are talking to me about their cases. and they're just like, sweetheart, 21-year-old, 22, 24-year-old dudes. And, like, I think it's also hard for me to put aside the fact that, like, okay, yeah, maybe that person is making a selfish decision. Maybe they are choosing whatever, this faster option that has these kind of, like, moral gray area. But, like, he, but it's not the villain that I think it's easier to look at.

Like that guy's a nice, you meet that guy, and you're like, I like that guy. He's a nice guy. Yeah. And so there's this other part of it of like, I'm sure there are a bunch of our friends who do suss morally questionable shit in their day jobs. Definitely. You know? Yeah, definitely. And so it's like, there's a lot of shame and a lot of, like, like, getting on your pedestal about people who make this decision.

But like, there's a lot of people who do very questionable things that's completely legal. Maybe. You know? What about, I guess, what's your impression now, having been on the inside a little bit, about the degree to which the system is, I guess, fucked, for lack of a better term. You know, going in, I feel like you and I are both pretty cynical about. the justice system. I'm interested to hear

how you're thinking about it now that you've seen it a little bit. I think I am still cynical. I think the ways in which is flawed are different are different than I expected, right? Or I think there are the obvious flaws where you have like,

the corrupt cops who are lying. You have the corrupt judge. You have the entirely innocent man who's been accused of something, right? Those kind of obvious things. then you have someone who's like, is this a crime? Did he really do it?

Is this the guy? And that guy will just sit in this system for so long. I think like the big thing that's happened for me is realizing how slow the process is in a lot of ways. I think there's a lot of fear when someone has a criminal charge of like, oh my God, they're going to, they're going to pick me up and they're going to lock me up tomorrow. And like that process is really slow in a lot of sense.

Or from start to finish, it can be very long. And like, I think that adds to the concern of like if someone is incarcerated, let's say someone gets locked up and they have bail and they can't afford it. They may not even have a trial, like get to determine if they're innocent or guilty for months. Months. There's a very possible world, like very possible

and like pretty common world where someone is locked up, can't afford their bail and will sit in jail for months and months and months until they even get a trial.

And like that's... Brogan? Yeah. And I think like more and more what that gives me the reaction is like I think I'm more aware of the

like the pitfalls of cash bail even in a city where maybe the cash bail system has become symbolic of failures well I don't know how much you can talk about this but like Larry

Krasner is definitely under a lot of heat for trying to abolish cash bail here. What? Is he abolishing it? Your voice is. Sorry.

Is he abolishing it? Because all my clients get cash bail. Yeah. So I think it's one of those things where everyone's like, this, this fucking soft DA, he's letting everybody out. No, he's not.

No, he's not. There are plenty of people who go. go to jail who are on, so in the way that retail theft is, retail theft is a misdemeanor until you've had three. And then it's a felony. So there are guys who, I say guys, because it's almost always men. Have you represented any women? Yeah, but it's mostly men.

Young men? It's everyone. But the vast majority of clients are male. But so in Philadelphia retail theft, misdemeanor, until you have three. If you get a third retail theft, you walk into Wawa and you steal a soda, and you've had three others, felony. So there are guys who are repeat, like, retail theft, or they're going into the, like, you know.

Three is a lot, though. Three? Oh, no, it's not. three times. Three times feels like a lot to me. To go into a store and pick up a bottle of water and walk out. To get caught three times, that feels like a lot. Okay, that person has a felony charge now.

So that person who stole $5 worth of hygiene products, $15 worth of hygiene products, is now sitting in jail on $25,000 for bail. Yeah. That person is not a flight, it's not a danger, right? there are probably not a flight risk. Can you, okay, I mean, you're a little bit on home field here because, I mean, fundamentally, my position is nobody should stay in jail because they're poor. So when there's a system where it's like you need to give X amount of dollars to get out of jail and the difference is not what crime somebody committed, but whether they can pay or not. I mean, but it is, right?

Like more serious offenses get higher cash. No, but I'm just saying like two people get accused of the same crime, commit the same crime. They have the same bail. One person can pay one person can't. The person with money gets out of jail, the person who doesn't have money is stuck in jail. Right. They're in jail because they're poor. Yeah, I'm out.

That's not like I'm not that. I just like won't ever support a system like that. But on the other hand, well, no, on the other hand, let me ask you. Could you steal man the cash bail position? I mean, are there elements of it that work? Why could it be good or useful? I mean, I assume sometimes dangerous people are kept in prison because they can't afford to get out.

But maybe, I guess there's other ways to keep them in prison than if you think they're dangerous, a judge could keep them locked up without setting a cash bail, right? I mean, I don't know. I think there are only certain offenses that you can't set bail, that you don't need bail. I think for most offenses, you have to set bail. So what happens often is when you're first charged with a crime, you get preliminarily arranged in Philadelphia,

which is you go before a magistrate, not a judge. Let's say it's the same night that you got arrested. There's going to be someone from the public defender's office and someone from the district attorney. They'll look at your crimes. They'll say, oh, this person was seen making three observed hand-to-hand transactions. Each of the buyers is stopped. On each of the buyers is five flip-top containers of alleged crack cocaine.

Alleged. I like how you said alleged. Alleged crack cocaine. On that person, they find $250 of the United States currency. This is how the parse. This is how the police reports read. and 20 flip-top containers of alleged crack cocaine. The district attorney is going to ask for $999,000 of bail.

I think that's a serious crime. Why that number? Because it's $1 short, whatever. Sorry, they're asking for $1 short of a million dollars on almost every crime that they think is serious. Got it. But my understanding is you don't have to pay. the full... You don't. You have to pay 10% to get released. Well, 10% of $100,000 or a million dollars is

100 grand. So, okay. So Larry Krasner is abolishing cash bill. Is district attorneys or walking to preliminary arraignment and asking for essentially a million dollars. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. One of the things that I've learned from having all these conversations with you that astounds me and that I think has grown my cynicism about the system is just that the judge matters so much

and it's like a lottery basically I mean if you're if I'm accused of a specific crime and correct me if I misstate any of this but I get accused of having a gun, a legal possession of a firearm. There are literally judges that I could get put before randomly based on, I mean, what seems like basically a lottery system. And some of those judges will say, okay, we're going to put you on, like, parole. I don't know what they call it.

but you're allowed to leave the courthouse and, you know, your trial date's set and we'll see you then. And others will say, you're in jail, $500,000 cash bail. And then that person's, like, locked up for six months until their trial. And it is, like, they are looking at the same law, but they're coming to totally different conclusions. and if you're the accused, it is just a roll of the dice. And you as a public defender know going in, like you've said to me, I have a tough judge today. And I'm like, what do you mean?

Like, what is that even mean? And it's just like, I just know my clients today are probably screwed for like X, Y, Z things they're being charged with. I can't wrap my head around that. I mean, that, that, I think, like, more than anything, sorry, more than anything, that offends my sensibilities. Do you have anything? To say that. Yeah.

You're not the one on trial here. The judges are, but, um, I mean, what? Am I, am I, is that, am I saying that right? Yeah. I mean, here, yeah. I mean, here's what else. How can that be? because the law is a human system, right?

The law is run by people and it's what makes it flawed, but is what also makes it good. And so you have a judge who's hearing facts, and based on their interpretation of the law, those facts either meet a certain threshold or they don't. What I'll say is, So there's a little bit of a safe, not safety net, but the way that Philadelphia is set up, there's municipal court judges and court of common police judges.

If you get found guilty in front of a municipal court judge, say this is for a misdemeanor trial, you can de novo appeal, which means you can automatically appeal that sentence once you've been found guilty in sentence. And it will get to go to another judge. So there's a little bit of like safety. net there in terms of like the variation between the judges. So you're like, all right, he's going in front of this judge who I know is a really, really tough judge on this. If he found, if he's found guilty on this, he's going to, he's going to like hit him with some serious probation or hit him with like reporting or whatever. If I think, if that's what happens, we're in a de novo

appeal and we'll get, we'll go in front of a court of common police judge. So there's a little bit of the safety net there. But that's just a safety net there. and the way the affiliate works. Once it's in common, please, it doesn't matter. If you get felt and guilty, that's it. There's no more, like, appealing. You get an appeal if something goes wrong, but this kind of, like, immediate appeal from the municipal court

is, like, a very kind of unique experience. I think I feel two ways. I think in terms of representing clients, I think it's incredibly insane that, like, there are certain judges who we know will react to certain things in certain ways and that I'm tailoring myself to a judge rather than to the specific case.

And I think, to be fair, I think a lot of the judges, I think most of them believe that it should not be judge dependent, but you're asking like a human being. It's just, it's so crazy to me that they, the variance is so live. Yeah, I don't know how,

I should say, like, I don't know in terms of outcome how drastic it is. Like, there are certain judges where, like, so a lot of what I do or what I was doing, I got moving to a different unit, but initially were these preliminary hearings, which is basically probable cause hearings, right? Does this person, or it's similar to probable cause hearings, basically it's, does the district attorney have enough to prove that more likely than not this person committed this crime, right? It's a very low threshold.

It's just to see whether this person can be actually charged for those crimes. So there are certain judges that I know that will hear certain cases, and they're going to discharge the case because they're like this, they read certain case law, they know certain facts, or they just like have certain ideologies about it. There are certain judges where I'm like, I know you're going to hold this for court, meaning it's not going to get dismissed at this level.

I don't know, let's say that those two judges hold that same case. I don't know in terms of if that same case got put in front of them, both of them for trial. I don't know in terms, and that person's found guilty. I don't know how drastic the outcome would be. There's a lot of variation in the beginning. I can only speak from this because this is the extent of my experience, but like in terms of getting charges dismissed in the beginning. There are judges where I'm like, if I make this argument well, this case is going to, I could get this case dismissed as opposed to there are some chart judges where at that level, because it is so low, they're holding it.

There's no way that's getting dismissed at this point. It doesn't mean that at trial they would necessarily find them guilty, but maybe. So there's a little that it feels particularly live at these beginning stages, I think, when the bar is really low. right when the district attorney has to show very like just more likely than 51% and so it's like if you can get a judge to drop that down maybe it's 49

like there are judges that you can that you feel like you have that ability with you can drop some of those charges and that's great like if you go in there and this guy's got a felony possession with intent to deliver for drug dealing. And I can make the argument, your honor, like, this should just be possession of drugs. This should be dropped down to the misdemeanor. If that can happen, great.

Because that's the difference between someone who's serving five to ten years or has a five-year maximum. Right? So it's like you're knocking off the chance that they could be found guilty on that. How's being a lawyer and a mom? Well, I don't know. I didn't do ever very much longer, I guess. Yeah, I haven't really talked about this on the podcast yet. Oh, I thought I meant like to your teen.

I was like, they know that, no? Oh, no, yeah. Yeah. So. We could hard launch that, I suppose. Hard launchings. Yeah. Is that what the kids call it?

Hard launchers, yeah. We're moving. We're moving. Yeah, we're leaving Philly. I'm leaving my job. They know. Don't rat on me. they know. Yeah. We, uh, it's really super exciting and sad and lots of mixed feelings.

Lots. But, um, we, I mean, very quickly and unexpectedly got an opportunity on a house. Uh, I don't want to say where in North Jersey, we'll say, um, sorry, and the Tangle audience is too big and this stuff is too splayed out now that like I'm not crazy about advertising. specifics on that. But, yeah, we're moving and we put an offering on a house. We were not expecting to get it. We got it.

We got it. And then we sort of had like an oh shit moment of do we really want to do this? Are we ready? And it's very complicated because you're leaving your job without a clear transition on the other end. So you have to figure that out. We have to figure that out. It's weird for me because, I mean, Philly is become really part of the brand identity, quote, unquote, for Tangle.

Like, I'm in Pennsylvania. I'm in the swing state. I'm outside the sort of New York, D.C. media bubble. And I feel like I've laid down roots here. And, yeah, I like Philly. I like working here. But I'm also ready to be out of the city. I've just, we've both just been city, city, city since we were 18.

And like, I think we're both like, wow, a yard. We're like, we're moving to the burbs and we're just ready for some fresh air and trees and green and grass. And we need it for Omri. He needs it. We basically spent some time in West Texas and saw what Omri was like in space. space and we're like, oh my God, he's so happy and parenting was so easy. It wasn't so easy. Well, it was different.

It was different. It was ease that we don't have here. Yeah, not in the city. So we're making this move, which we're both kind of freaking out about, and we're about to own a house, which is crazy and scary and new and seems like I can't believe this is real. and you're leaving your job without having a job on the other side, which I know is really scary. But yeah, I mean, I guess I'm curious what it's been like balancing mom lawyer life. Because we talked, I mean, again, last time we recorded this podcast, Omri was four weeks old,

and you were still in law school, and we were talking about that, like balancing law school and this. and now you've just had like six, eight months, whatever it is, working as a mom full time. It's hard. Turns out. Yeah, it turns out it's hard. It's really hard. It's really complicated because I think, as well as sad. It's complicated because I think there is a version of a vision of myself that I've had.

since I started law school. And being a mom wasn't part of that initial vision in this time period, right? We were thinking I would go to law school. I would graduate. I would work for a couple years. And then we would do kids. And then we didn't want to wait. And we made this decision and we got Omri.

And it's, I could never regret it and I don't regret it at all. He's perfect. but it is not the plan that I had for myself. And so now I am doing this work that I envisioned doing, but trying to manage it, doing it for the first time, being a new attorney, being a new public defender, and being a new mom at the same time. And I think the hardest thing is feeling like I'm not doing any of it 100%.

And I also don't feel like I'm comfortable in every. any of it. Like maybe now some of the stuff with Omri, I'm feeling more comfortable. There's like a little more relax, a little more ease. But I think like six months ago, when he was six months old and we put him in daycare. Yeah, but

well, no, I don't want to... No, don't. I'm sad. I don't know what you can have to say so far. No, I just, you're just watching you as a mom. I mean, you're incredible. It seems easy for you in a lot of ways. It's not. Yeah. It's not. And like, it's not when I come home and I'm exhausted and he's exhausted.

And I'm frustrated that he's exhausted and that I'm exhausted. And so my two hours I have with him when I'm home, I'm resentful. I'm mad that he's frustrated and needy and can't be consoled. And then I'm mad at myself that I'm frustrated about it. because this is all the only time I get with him tonight. And then I put him down and I open my laptop and I look at all the work that I have to do. And I don't feel like I'm particularly good at that either.

You know? And I don't think I should be great. I don't think I should be good at that. I'm new. But it's really hard to wake up and do really hard things fine. and things that feel really important and have high stakes, right? Like, I am never going to feel good

walking into a room with a client and having not prepared or having not read the police report or having not reached out to someone about his bail. I'm also never going to feel good when Omri is awake and I'm on my computer. Yeah, and he's like grabbing at my leg and I'm frustrated that he needs me in this moment.

moment. And then I have to think, like, am I doing any of this well? And then it starts to feel the question of like, well, if I'm just feeling like I'm not doing any of this well, what am I doing this for in terms of like living my life like this? And I think like it's the first time of my life where I feel like I'm two people. Or like there is the version of me that, went to law school to do this job that loves this work and feels committed to it. And there's a part of me that feels like the strongest, most confident version of myself that's ever existed when I went to law school and became a lawyer. Like I think there's a part of me that is like deeply at ease doing this work.

There's a part of me that feels like I'm myself for the first time. And then I'm also this, and then I'm also a mom. And I'm becoming this other version of myself in motherhood, who am I as a mom, what kind of mother and parent do I want to be? And being a mom is not, was not part of the initial plan for being the lawyer that I wanted to be at this moment in time. And those wants to be a present mother and to be a good attorney. feel really, really hard to navigate together right now. And it's the first time, like, we made this decision,

and I think it's the right decision for our family. I think it's not the right decision for me, personally, in the vacuum of my life. Like, for my career, no. I would never envision a world where I would work this job for six months and then leave without a job lined up. I would never, ever allow that to happen to my job. I would never want that. But I want that for the version of me that's the mom, and I want that for our family.

And so I think it's one of like, and all the parents that I talk to in the, like in my office and other lawyers who I talk to, it's like, I think this is just the beginning of parenting in a lot of ways, where it's the first time where I'm choosing our family and him in a way I've never had to before. It does feel like the first time we've made a choice outside of us. Yeah, because even the decision to have him was because we wanted him, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, that's an easy, like, oh, we want a little baby. We're going to have one, you know, like, and now there's this decision about what we want for his future and what we want for him and what we want for us. We want the support. We want all these things closer to friends and family.

and like that's for us in the future. I felt like the world, like the, you know, you know when people describe moments where like the room tilts a little bit? Like they have vertigo? Like big moment. Okay, well, it's a thing people say. The room tilt? Yeah. Like, you feel your feet leave the ground and it's a moment where it's, you know,

Like, you know it's this huge moment. I felt when our real estate agent called us and said that our bid won, I felt a little bit, like I felt the room tilt where I was like, oh my God, I just made a huge life-altering decision. And a decision that I knew would impact our son in this huge way. it just, I just couldn't believe that I was picking a trajectory for our lives and for Omri, I mean, specifically for our son, you know, it just, it felt so huge. And I felt this huge pressure of like, I'm choosing like what elementary school he's going to go to, middle school, high school, the kids, the friend, like the childhood friends he's going to have on the

block, the community grows up when the place he identifies with, like, he's, he's going to Like, he's not going to identify with Philly. He's going to identify with North Jersey now. He's going to be a Jersey kid. Or, like, yeah, Phoebe is a Jersey girl. So, and I was born in New Jersey and lived in Trenton while I was five. So I try and rep the Jersey boy stuff sometimes, but I, what? Just leave it.

That's not for you. Yeah, I'm a Philly scumbag. Yeah. Yeah. But I just felt the pressure of I'm choosing this for him. See, I don't feel that. I feel that. I feel that in like such a big...

I don't feel the pressure of like picking for him. Like I don't feel the pressure of like deciding his life. I feel like we're going to give him a good life wherever he's at. I think in the forefront for me is like I'm leaving. a life here. And like, I don't like Philly, right? I fucking hate this place. Excuse me.

I hate this place. I can't say that. No, you can say whatever you want. Okay. I hate this place. You hate Philly? Yes. Yes.

Yeah. I would never say that, but yeah. I know you wouldn't. You like it here. Yeah. We're different people. You're just such a New York homer. It's like you can't.

I just want to. Okay. Anyway. Let's move on. Any oomst. Agree to disagree? Gone. Leaving Philly.

I don't really care about the city. But this was the beginning of my career. And I don't have anything set up in New Jersey. I'm not barred in New Jersey. And I think the other part of it is like I am also feeling like I don't know that it's possible to do this work right now. now for me. And that is a really, really scary feeling for me. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Can I just say, I mean, you started your undergrad while you had a full-time job. You went back to school because you went to acting conservatory. So you did your

undergrad. You graduated in three years while working full-time. COVID hit in the middle of that. So you sort of like reset your expectations about grad school. This all started because you were supposed to go to grad school to be, get your master's in directing in theater. And then you were like, I could just go anywhere. I could like do whatever I want. What other opportunities are there? And we talked about a lot of stuff.

You were talking about being a therapist. And then we talked about law school. You're not too. That's such bullshit. You're too empathetic for that. and then you got the law school bug, which I'd take a little bit of credit for because I was egging you on.

Like, you would be an incredible lawyer because I have to argue with you all the time, and it sucks. So then you went from undergrad to law school, and we moved to Philly by this whole big uprooting. You were the stoop kid who never left the stoop, just all North Jersey, New York your whole life. We bring you here. I'm back home.

I'm comfy. You know, I fit in here and I have tons of friends and family and stuff. And then you do law school for three years, which is insanely demanding. You get pregnant your third year of law school, have the baby, pass the bar after the baby's born, and then start work with like a five-month-old or something or six-month-old. I mean, you have not had a break in six years of any kind. Like it hasn't, it's not even like a break. It's just like it's been insane for six years.

So I think give yourself a little bit of grace on. Yeah, but I don't want to break. I know you don't. I know. I know. But just, you know, what you just did is truly insane. And if you take a- You ask me how I'm feeling.

I know. I'm not, I'm not validating your feelings. Let me respond. Yeah. Like, yes, I understand that what I just did was really hard. I understand that it's exhausting. but it doesn't make it, it can still be the right decision and sad at the same time.

And I think like the fear for me is that in feeling the limitations in myself of being like, I don't know that I have the energy to do both of these things right now, that confirms a lot of negative things I feel about myself. And it's more complicated than being like, have grace, be gentle with yourself. We're talking about deep-seated, tried and true negative thought

that's coming to fruition right now of like you have officially failed. You are in fact weak and lazy, it turns out, just as we all thought. And all of the listeners are being like, we knew it. She's dumb and lazy. But you must be excited for a few months off, right? In some ways or no?

I am, but I wish I was... Guilt-free. Yeah. I think I have a lot of fear about it. I mean, the fear I totally understand. Because I don't have a plan, and I don't... I don't know what's going to happen next, and I don't know what the path looks like. The other thing is, like, it's kind of like how I felt when I left theater.

I'm like, I don't know what other path exists for me. And it's the same thing. Like when I went into law school, it was always about being a public defender. And like, I know I want to be a lawyer. I love it. I do. I love it. And like there is a part of me, like I said earlier, there's a part of me operating in this space that is comfortable and easy and satiated and like, oof.

You're good at it. I'm good at it. And I like it and it suits me. Yeah. And I think there's like something lucky. It does see you. It does. It does. It suits me and like it calms me.

Like I think I'm a person who will spin their wheels and work hard and run around. And like if it's not meant for me, like I'm not at ease. And I think as hard as this work is, it, I am like put at ease. You're in a really impossible spot, I think. I think seeing you and like being your husband through this period and knowing your ambition and how much how much this job finally feels like a fit. I mean, it's been really cool to see you, you know, study for the LSATs and then go to and coming home like the first year of law school and being like, I think I'm, I think like this is good for me.

Like I get this. It makes sense. I'm understanding what's happening, you know, to now where you're forced into this decision of, I have to keep this thing that's like this budding identity that I have to sort of put on pause to lean into the mom and family and move and uproot and no clear future. I mean, I think that's now. I think whenever you're ready and you want to work your. going to be able to find a job. I don't suspect it'll be hard for you, but I've never done

what you're doing right now where it's sort of like just jump and you'll land somewhere. Neither have I. I've spent my entire life not doing that. Yeah. I spent literally maybe my whole life not having to jump without a plan. A reader, I can't remember if he's a reader or listener. somebody who listens or reads wrote into me and said last year when we did the show they were like I'm so jealous of you guys doing these podcasts and recording because in like 20 years this is going to be such a cool time capsule where you can kind of go back and listen and see like hear yourselves as like younger parents and whatever I had this really trippy thought which I don't know if it resonates with you at all but I'll throw it out there where I realize we're in the phase of life that I think of as my parents as like the beginning

of their lives. We're both the youngest of three siblings. So the world that I imagine from my parents when they were having my oldest brother, like before I was even born, I'm like, oh, their lives were just starting. When really they were there in the same place we are now. they had like 30 years of life leading up to that. But it is crazy to think all this stuff we're talking about. It's like it is kind of like the beginning of this different phase of our lives.

Like it feels like we're in the midst of this storm or in the middle of it. I think that's exactly what's hard. When it's really the beginning. Is that like I think for, I don't regret anything about my past. in life. I think it's, I got right. It's like I'm here because of the decisions I made. I think it's really hard to be in that beginning phase in multiple areas.

Like, I think it would feel different if I had been a lawyer for five years, 10 years, and then got to be a new mom with lawyering under my belt. And like, I agree. I think we're in the beginning phase. of this new chapter where we're like, we have a family now. We were each other's family, but now we're parents together. We want more children and, like, God willing, we'll have more children. And, like, that's an entire new, it feels like an entirely new life.

I think what feels complicated for me is balancing that new life that we're getting to build together while also having my new personal life. And I think like, you know, it makes sense to like go to college at a high school, go to law school after college, work for five years, get married, have kids. It seems so wrote until you're at my position where you're like, oh, wow, yeah, that would have been nice to have time to build myself, to focus on this before I was trying to start something else. And so I think like finding myself and finding the comfort and ease that this career and path gives me

and then feeling that kind of for the first time in life feeling like, yes, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And then having to put that pretty quickly on pause or even just on hold is really hard. It's really hard. And then there's the fear of like, will I ever get back? Will I find my way back to it? because I think the other part of me is like, or the negative thought, the mean part of me, says like, well, if you take your foot off the gas,

like you're lazy, you're never going to get back. And I know that that's not true, but it's really hard to, it's a really hard feeling to combat, especially when I know I have this thing that feels precious that's for me. I know it's not true also, but I relate to that feeling so much.

I mean, I feel that daily and with Tangle. And, well, I mean, life generally, or I'm like, if I don't do this, I don't go to this social event. I don't do this. Like, if I take the foot off the gas, I'm like missing. Yeah.

And I lose it. And, yeah. It's like my best friend, Nicole, was talking about this with me. Basically, because it was advice I'd given to her and she gave it back to me. but it's like it's that it's having to find my confidence in myself, right? Where it's like it's not just like, oh, I'm going to like, it's going to be hard to return to the job market.

It's this and this and this. It's remembering that like I am the person. I'm still the person who got myself to law school, who got myself through law school, who had the baby in law school, who passed the bar with the baby, who got the job when she was pregnant, who did all that, like, I'm still that person, and I have to trust that, like, that person is me. And, like, when I am ready that I can trust myself to get me to the place that I want to be. And, like, that's, I don't have that right now.

I think the way that I experience my achievements is that I've, like, done it by, like, brute force almost, rather than by skill. And so I think there's fear for me of like, well, if I stop this train, I don't have the skill or the competence to do this again. So I need to keep muscling through because the only way I'm doing it is by muscling and like gritting and keeping...

When in reality... Go ahead. No, you. When in reality. When in reality, can you finish that sentence or no? When in reality, you have the skill. You are skilled. You're a great attorney.

You'll find another job. Yeah. I don't feel that way. Yeah. I know you don't. But I know it. Yeah. That's what's also hard.

It's like. You know it, but you don't feel it. Yeah. I know it. I know I'm competent. Like I would trust me with, I trust me with my clients, right? but I don't trust my confidence with myself. Like, I trust that I'm going to work really hard and be the lawyer that, like, my client

deserves in that moment. But I don't trust that I am a good, smart, capable attorney in myself, even though I know, like, I'm going to do, I'm going to be what that person deserves in that moment. We're at about an hour or 20 minutes here. Sorry, friends. No, no need to apologize. But I do want to directionally move us a little bit

towards a conclusion. And in the spirit of the time capsule, I don't think we can get out of here. We should talk about Omri. A little baby. Just a little bit. A little baby boy. Can I say something?

Sure. We were at dinner the other night and we sat next to a couple whose baby was three months old. and we were talking about how that cry the cry was so distinct is so specific to that newborn cry brought us back yeah

and I like you don't realize it's gone and now he's a big boy but it's a very specific newborn and they all sound the same and they all sound the same it's really bizarre and it did it made me be like

there was part of me that was like just give me the baby just hand me that baby because it's like I'm used to hearing that crying that being my baby yeah we were sitting there and we were like

and I was like should I ask Should we get pregnant? Should we have a baby? Should I ask to hold that one? Yeah Favorite thing currently about Omri about 13 month old

12 and a half month old Amory? He's funny now He's really funny Yeah he's kind of a ham And he doesn't He's being funny like that kills me.

Yeah. Like he's doing things to be funny. He's making jokes. He's making jokes. And he laughs. He's a lapper, yeah. Like before bed, we were like playing and I was throwing him around and kissing him. He was just like belly legs.

Just like full laughing. It's the best. It's the best. And he also hugs now. I was going to say, I think my favorite thing is one of my favorite. things is that he's really in a hug he's at the age now where he's just like shows physical affection shows physical affection which is nice um i was in the tub like getting the tub giving him a bath well he was in the tub i was outside the tub you weren't there so i will say watching him take a

bathroom you know i'm like i should take bath some more this seems nice um but i was outside the tub he was in the tub and he was he was like putting his mouth he's going blowing bubbles blowing bubbles and then laughing, like picking his head up, looking at me and just laughing, and I'm laughing, and he's laughing, and he's getting the reaction on me, so he just does it over and over. And I was like, this is incredible. He is like, he's got a little bit of the ham in him, for sure. Well, you know, what makes me think, speaking of the time capsule, one of the questions, there was like a reader question for the, or Tangle podcast, and was like, what's one of life's precious commodities or something? And I said laughter. Yeah.

And like, it makes me think about, like, what, how connected and, like, in love with Omri, I feel like, now that we laugh together. And, like, he laughs. and he makes me laugh. Like that's the other thing. It's like he makes me laugh. And I laugh honestly. Like,

and it says really beautiful. I feel like we laugh a lot with him. He's really fun. I mean, it's like somebody, there's like a comedian or something who describes living with a toddler. It's just like having a miniature drunk person

in your house at all times. And it's really, it's just like, we'll just be sitting in the family room kind of like letting him solo play in the kitchen or something and we can hear him just like going through the drawers and then he'll just come out with like his drunk little toddler waddle just like into the room and he's holding like a whisk or something that he's pulled out of the drawer and it's just so best so funny um yeah

i would say my favorite thing right now is that i will teach him something that i will teach him something on like a Tuesday night and then Wednesday morning he'll wake up and he'll know how to do it. It's freaky. It is insane. Like I'm having the realization of like, oh my God. First of all, the human brain is. Crazy. Yeah, it's miraculous.

I don't even know there aren't, I have, I've not found the words yet. But if you really, when you really watch it and experience it, it is so awe-inspiring. The example of that is most top of mind is just we were downstairs all the way downstairs. I'd just given him bath. So he was like naked, which is always funny. It's like this is fat baby, big belly, like old man's butt. He's like strutting around. And he got to the stairs.

And he was like putting his hands on the stairs and sort of like smack in the stairs and kind of lifting up his right leg trying to get it on. but he couldn't really totally do it. And I just came behind him and I'm like talking to him and I like, I picked up his ankle and I put his foot on the stair. And then I kind of just like nudged his butt. And then he climbed on the first stair. And then I helped him down on the second stair. And I like, you know, like puppeteered him up the stairs and then put him in a towel

and carried him up, went to sleep. And the next day, he just climbed the stairs by himself. And I was like, oh my God. Like I literally taught him how to do it. And he just slept for a night and all the neurons in his brain connected. And then he just did it. And when he went up the stairs, I was just like, oh, my God, my mind's blown. And now I'm like, what have I done?

Because. Right. Yeah, you taught him to go up the stairs. He's insatiable. He just, if he can get loose from us, he goes and he just climbs the stairs. if they go up and down the stairs, up and down the stairs, up and down the stairs, well, not down. He gets to the top and then he starts crying because he doesn't know how to get down yet.

But he just wants to go up, up, up. It's really remarkable. And I think that to me is the coolest thing. That's kind of blown my mind. It's like the very, like, there's very few moments in life where you get to watch someone learn at that pace, right? Like, teaching and learning is like, is an interesting process. but it usually is, you know, it's school.

It takes a year. It takes months. It takes whatever. But being able to watch someone absorb and learn, like, I think also like learn these really, like, foundational things, right? It's not like learning a skill. It is a skill, but, like, not learning, like, some, like, craft later in life. It's, like, watching someone learn something that's going to be the rest of their life.

It's like, oh, that's, like, there's so much purpose and meaning and use in what you're learning. and I get to watch you learn it and put it into play. And like, you're different now. Like, now you walk. Now you walk up the stairs. Like, it's this very immediate, like, whoa, your life is different now that you can do this thing. One of the really funny things that's happening right now, too, is we were in upstate New York for Christmas. And Omri was waking up really early in the morning.

with me and I would take him downstairs and start a fire in the fireplace in the house we're staying in in your brother's house. And I'm like, we're really into trying to let him, not interfering with like his play and movements and trying hard not to just like know him and pull him away. So the fire is, you know, I'm starting a fire in the fireplace and he's like crawling over. And so instead of like grabbing him pulling away, I'm like, it's hot. But everybody's sleeping in the house. We're up there for Christmas. So I'm just saying like, Amri, it's hot. It's hot. Like trying to whisper. But like, don't touch it. It's hot. It's hot. And then like he just started going, hot, hot. Like, oh no. So I'm like, oh my God, this is so cool.

And then for like, we, then we went to Texas and there was a fireplace in our place down there. And when I'd make the fire, he would look at it and go hot. And I say, yeah, it's hot. Like, and I'm like, oh my God, this is his first word, is hot. We, like, taught him his first word. He says, dad, dad, dad, but it's not always clear that he's, like, talking to me. Sometimes he just says, dad, da, da, da. So he's like, hot, hot. But now we're like three months in to him knowing the word hot, two months in, I guess, since Christmas.

Yeah, he lost it a little, though. And it's like, we give him a stuffed animal, and he's like, hot. And I'm like, no. And we're getting him food, which we're often saying, it is hot. We make eggs and we're like, it's not ready yet. It's hot. But I think he's more consistent. I think it's more thoughtful than we think.

Is it? I feel like, oh, I thought he knew this word and understood it. And now I'm like, oh, no, he doesn't know the word. He's applying it to a bunch of things. Like, we put the fake fireplace on the TV. And he looks at that and says hot. Right, but that's right. It is hot.

It's fine. It's not hot. It's a TV. I know, but he's looking at a fire. And then the food is hot. But then I think it's like things he can't do are hot. Like I think it's like forbidden. That's interesting.

It's hot. Yeah. I just noticed him saying it about things. I'm like, no, that's not hot. I thought you knew the word, but now I'm not sure. He doesn't have a speaker, but he's not allowed to touch the speaker. Yeah. So I think it's whatever he thinks he's not allowed to have.

It's hot. It's hot. But to this day, he doesn't, yeah, he doesn't say hot. He goes, hot, hot. And it's really, really cute and funny. Yeah, and he's a fat little boy. Your little chunky boy. Yeah.

Okay. All right, that's our time capsule for Omri. It's Valentine's Day. It is. Happy Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day. You have a gift for me. me. I don't. We have a gift to ourselves. We have something to come in this weekend. I won't say what,

but we gifted ourselves a restful weekend and a night away from Omri. First one. Yeah, which I'm excited about. I love you. Thanks. I'm welcome. I love you. I'm really proud of you. I'm super, I'm a little nervous about the next step. No, you know, you're not allowed to be nervous. No, I don't mean about you. I think you're going to be fine. I just mean us. Like, it's scary.

We're moving. We're uprooting. Things are changing. I'm a little nervous. But, yeah, I mean, what I was going to say was, like, I have full faith in you finding your way because you're brilliant and talented. And I love doing this podcast every year. I love this.

The fourth year we've done this. And I'm, it's funny because. We do talk about this stuff all the time, but it is pretty rare that we just, like, sit down and chat for two hours. We just, like, don't have time for that, it feels like. So it's nice to connect with you and do that. And I'm always reminded of how smart you are. And I love hearing you talk and think,

even on stuff where I disagree with you on, I feel like it's challenging for me, which I love and appreciate. and I'm so glad that I married a woman who's really smart and ambitious and an incredible mom. I know you feel like it's hard and you're not doing anything 100%. But I did mean it. I wasn't trying to invalidate your feelings. I know you hate that. But I did mean it that I, it looks easy when you do it.

You look natural. And, yeah, I respect that a lot. Relatedly, I saw a tweet from some guy a few weeks ago where he said, I have this problem. My wife describes something that's going wrong in her life that she's upset about. I propose a solution. She gets upset at me and says, I don't want a solution. I just want you to hear me.

Does anyone know how to get out of this dynamic because we are stuck in it constantly? And I was like, oh, I recognize that? No, it's the men. It's the men folk, yeah. Yeah, we just solve problems. That's what we do. Ew. Ew.

No way you do is stuff your feelings down. And don't. And don't address them. Okay, well, let's bring some feelings up. Bring them up. This show is about you. Thank you. This episode is about you.

But this is my podcast. Oh, my God. This is about you about you? You have to, it's Valentine, Isaiah. You have to say, you have to say a nice thing about me before you. No. Yes. Okay, obviously I will.

But this is not how it normally goes. You're supposed to say nice things about me. I just did. I think you're a beautiful dad. Like a beautiful father. And I think like it makes, I think there are a lot of, like, I had a moment today where I watched you with Omri. And it's really, I feel equally equally.

happy for him and happy for me, that, like, he is going to have a father who's so openly affectionate and effusive with him. And I think, like, the way that you love him and the way that you love in general, but particularly with him, is going to be really special because I think you're an incredibly sensitive person. And I think a lot of that gets filtered. through this kind of being competitive or being thoughtful or being this. But I think you're incredibly sensitive.

And I think like Omri and I get to like reap the benefit of that. And I think it's going to be really important for him to be raised as a young man growing up in this world with a father who's very sensitive and thoughtful about his feelings and thoughtful about. on me's feelings. And I think that's going to be like a massive advantage for him, moving through his life to have a father who is not, who prizes that. And like, for however much I tease you about your inability to talk about your feelings, you do, and you're very thoughtful about yourself and the feelings of others. And I think you're going to role model that. to him and I think as the like same gender parent role model for him I think he's going to have an incredible template from you in terms of moving through the world as a as a man who's a

young man particularly who will be raised to be confident and strong and also gentle and sensitive and thoughtful. Phoebe Padgett? Lelton left-hand me. Best of luck in your endeavors. Happy Valentine's Day. Thank you with you. I love you.

We're shaking hands. I love you. Thank you. That was really sweet. Of course. I didn't know what you were going to say, but that was really nice. Any other surprises for me? No.

No other surprises. Should ask Jim from last year to reach back out. Oh, yes. Yeah. Two years ago, I guess it was. Yeah. Thank you guys for listening if you made it to the end. Don't be mean to me in the comments.

Phoebe, I will say, Phoebe said that if the tango audience is being to her, she's not... I'm never coming back. So it'd be nice to Phoebe. Be nice to me. I love you. I love you. Happy Valentine's Day. Thanks.

Happy Valentine's Day. Bye. Bye.