Taylor Lorenz’s Power User - Ashley St Clair's Political Awakening: Trans Rights, AI, and Elon Musk

Episode Date: January 14, 2026

SUPPORT ME ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/cw/taylorlorenz            Buy a subscription to my Tech and Online Culture newsletter, User Magazine to support my work!!!! 🙏 https://www.usermag.co       Until recently, Ashley St Clair was a star in the conservative influencer world. She built a large and powerful following by leaning into culture-war rhetoric and boosting MAGA policies. She worked for Charlie Kirk’s Turning Point USA and gained national attention by publishing an anti trans Children’s book. She was welcomed into the upper echelons of right-wing media and activism, and her proximity to power on the right deepened when she began a relationship with Elon Musk, who she later had a child with.But lately, Ashley’s public posture has begun to shift. After Grok, Elon Musk’s AI chatbot, began to flood the internet with nonconsensual deepfake content undressing Ashley and countless other women (and children), she became increasingly outspoken in her criticisms of Musk and unchecked AI development.In her posts, Ashley has also suggested that some of her other earlier views on things like trans rights, have changed.I sat down with Ashley to talk about how she got her start in conservative influencing, Maga 1.0 vs MAGA 2.0, the right wing internet pipeline, Elon Musk, and how her positions on issues like LGBTQ rights, healthcare, and immigration have changed.Follow me:https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz                   https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz3.0                   https://www.tiktok.com/@taylorlorenz 

What preceded that was just many, many more images being produced. And the age I was in them got younger and younger down to 14 years old. It was horrific. Until recently, Ashley Sinclair was a star in the MAGA conservative influencer world. She built a large and powerful following by leaning into culture war rhetoric and boosting MAGA policies. She worked for Charlie Kirk's Turning Point USA and gained national attention several years ago after publishing an anti-trans children's book. Ashley was welcomed into the upper echelons of the Trump world. And her proximity to power on the right only deepened when she began a relationship with Elon Musk,

who she later had a child with. But lately, Ashley's public posture has begun to shift. After Grok, Elon Musk's AI chatbot began to flood the internet with non-consensual deep fake content depicting Ashley and countless other women, along with even children, Ashley became increasingly outspoken of her criticisms of Musk and unchecked AI development. And just earlier this week, Ashley posted something that suggested that some of her other earlier views on things like trans rights have changed. So I sat down with Ashley to talk about how she got started in conservative influencing, MAGA 1.0 versus MAGA 2.0, the right wing internet pipeline, and how her positions on things like LGBTQ rights, health care, immigration, and more have evolved. I know it's really tempting to write people like Ashley off or get really angry at the harm that they've committed.

But Ashley is surprisingly candid and thoughtful and does seem to want to make amends for the harm that she's caused over the years. Ashley, welcome to my podcast. Hello, hello. I guess to start off, I feel like people really started to pay attention to your posts in the past week or so because you've been calling out just the obscene level of deep fake adult content that Grock has been producing. When did you first notice this was a problem? Like, how did this stuff make its way into your feed? I was so upset that this even came into my purview to begin with because right before I found out about it,

I had made a statement saying that Twitter is a demonic place that makes me spiritually regress, and I would like to stay off of it. And then I got a text from a friend with a Twitter link, which is usually like what hit the timeline now. And so I'd go and I click it and Grock was undressing me. It had taken a fully clothed photo and put me in a bikini. And I, of course, immediately asked Gron. to stop. Yeah, tell me about that interaction. And when you saw that content about yourself, it's so disturbing. I remember the first time I saw for, like, the first deep fake I saw of myself was like so

disorienting. Like, what did you do in that instance? So I immediately started, as I said, I replied to Grock very publicly and said, I do not consent to this being posted. I do not want you producing any more of these. And Grock at first responded and said, sorry, it's just a humorous post. I again responded and said, no, it's not. confirm that I don't consent and confirm that you're not going to produce these images anymore. Grock said that they would no longer be produced and that it confirmed my non-consent to these images. What preceded that was just many, many more images being produced and they only became more and more explicit. And the age I was in them got younger and younger down to 14 years old.

They found photos from the depths of the internet, since I am very much a child of the internet. I grew up on the internet, so they dug them up. And then they were undressing, 14-year-old me, 15-year-old me, up to, you know, they took a photo of me with brace belden in which I was fully clothed. And my toddler's backpack was in the background. They put me in a floss bikini, bent me over where it's basically nude and made videos where I'm, you know, touching myself. And it was horrific to see. I feel like the children's backpack gets me so much. it's so disturbing. I mean, obviously you have multiple children, including one with Elon Musk.

Like, you would think that you would be able to kind of get some sort of accountability from this company. What was X's reaction to your post? It was very difficult. So I went through the same avenues that everyone else has to go through, which is just three little dots on this publicly distributed post from GROC, three little dots that you click and you report post and you hope and you wait. Some of these were removed after I made a big obnoxious stink about it. Others were, I was told they weren't a violation, including ones of me covered in white sticky donut glaze, which I'm sure you can imagine what that was. And others, I just got no response and they remained up. Yeah, I saw so many images of children covered in the white sticky donut glaze or Elmer's glue or

like other things. And I saw you were highlighting as well, like some other instances you've seen. It's not like you were alone in being targeted in this, you know, situation. It seems like this is such a widespread problem all over acts. That was the most disturbing part was when I publicly spoke out about this. I have messages from I don't even know how many women and parents who said it's happening to me. I'm in distress. I'm depressed about this. I'm concerned. I can't get these images down. And even my mom, I called her when this happened and she was, you know, in tears. She's like, I was so scared this was going to happen to you. It's been happening for about a week.

And I've been documenting so much of it. So my mom had troves of this stuff that she's like, I don't even know who to report this to the authorities or X or what do you even do. And it's children in real children that were then taken by Grock and put in bondage, covered in fluids, undressed, put into not only bikinis, these users were asking them to undress them and then put them in intimate wear. that were children's themed. So like a bluey bikini, I saw a girl who looked about four years old put on, and it was horrific. Yeah, it just seems like it's so widespread and so shocking because the company seems to have only doubled down

and actually is punishing you for speaking out. I mean, I saw that basically you had had like your Twitter premium removed. Can you talk a little bit about kind of like the backlash you've received from X? because it seems like they've punished you for speaking out. Right away, once I started sharing these things, they were putting labels and warnings on my responses to Grok saying, hey, can you please remove this child, CSAM of me? Hey, can you please remove these, you know, basically nude photographs of me?

And they were putting warnings on my tweets saying that these were explicit while not taking down the actual explicit content and the non-consensual content. And then, sure enough, I lost my blue checkmark, which I had before. for Elon Musk ever took over Twitter. I lost the blue check mark. I lost my premium. And so then I re-bought it.

I gave this man another $11. Then they banned me from premium entirely. And this was all because I spoke out about this robot undressing me. It's actually insane. And I think it also just shows how petty the people behind this platform are. Like the fact that you literally re-bought premium and then they blocked you from it, like it's appalling. I mean, I feel like,

you've been really like leading the charge on speaking out against this stuff. Like, are you thinking of pursuing legal action? Like, have you spoken to anyone? I am exploring every option available to me, and I'm speaking to several different people on the manner. What I think is really important to understand is, too, that one, this was not an accident. There's never a time where you're building a system like this, that these, these things aren't taken into consideration. And what does not help the case for X, Twitter, whatever you want to call it, is that, Once ago, Linda Giacorino, who was the CEO of X, she was the female CEO appointed by Elon Musk and was at X for quite some time. She resigned back in July.

And what people tend to forget about the context of her resignation is that within the 24 to 48 hours that she resigned right before, Grogh had a bunch of text-based, explicit, very gory abuse content put out about her. And so they were very aware of the capabilities of this machine, of this AI to do those things without generating any images. So they knew it was an issue. They didn't address it before they did this. And then they're firing their head of safety or the head of safety leaves right before this is released. So even if they were to fix it tomorrow, we really should be asking questions about how did this happen in the first place? Are you really telling me you had no idea? Because it doesn't seem that way.

Well, especially throughout all of this, Elon Musk has encouraged. this behavior and encourage people and actually tweeted out like tips on how to get the most out of GROC and how to like get it to generate images even better, you know, like it seems like, as you said, like this is like rotten to the core. It's not like this, oh, this company made a mistake and they're fixing it. One thing that was really bothering me is all these reporters being like, Grock apologized for undressing or whatever. And it's like they just had tagged Grock and been like, are you sorry? And GROC would be like, oh, yeah, sorry. But then in the other like, another replies, it's like still undressing people. And also this is just a chat bot that's like replying to anything that you like feed into it. Yes, this was not a statement by the platform. The actual statement by the platform was, hey, we're actually going to make victims do all of the work here. And it's on the user. So if you have a problem, you need to go take resources from your local law enforcement and have them track down this random Aon account that's that's telling GROC to produce these images. It's an undue burden on the victims and it's appalling.

At the same time, I feel like it's, you know, it's so frustrating. because like child's online safety has been so like discussed by members of Congress. And I talk about it all the time on my podcast and channel, but like, you know, the UK passed. They're like online safety act and all this stuff. And they're they're enacting all these mass censorship laws to in the name of like protecting children. And then here you have like one of the biggest social platforms ever allowing random people to essentially generate CSAM. And there's a seems to be just no accountability.

It is definitely C Sam like without a doubt. And many of these things are a violation of the recently past Take a Down Act, beyond a shadow of a doubt. So there's no question that that material is the material that we think it is. But yeah, they're oddly quiet on it. And if you realize I think it was today or yesterday that XAI now has a new Pentagon contract, this is appalling. And so many times censorship you were absolutely right is funneled in and ushered in under the guise of protecting certain groups or certain demographics. And I spoke ad nauseum with the BBC about this and said, hey, the UK, it's really good that you guys are now trying to ban this or take action against GROC for producing

these images. But you kind of stepped on the right here because you guys had so many very laborious censorship efforts that nobody's going to take this seriously, even though it really needs to be taken seriously now. Exactly. Because now we actually do need to prevent harmful content for minors and adults online. And we can't do that because they have all these ridiculous like censorship and surveillance laws in place. And they've like, you said, poisoned the well with all of it. Tell me a little bit about like your history on Twitter because I feel like you've been on it for a long time. Can you talk about kind of like how you got on and started building a platform and how your experience of the platform has evolved? So I am very much a product of the internet.

I was kind of that first generation that just grew up on the internet all the time. You know, I had a Facebook account at 11 or 12. And then I got on Twitter relatively young as a teenager and just kind of joked around and said provocative things. And it was just the place to kind of get everything off your chest. And that obviously evolved once I was around 18 and went to college and I started dipping my toes into politics. And the moment I started doing that, I very quickly, as soon as I was saying anything that was

like slightly right of center. it would be picked up and shared by others within the right-wing community. And at that time on Twitter, it was like the 2016 era. They really wanted more, especially young women, to be a part of this and usher in some of this messaging. So I grew very quickly on the platform. And I loved Twitter. I really did. It used to be fun.

It was more fun. Even when people were fighting with each other, I just felt like there was a different air about it. I don't know if you feel the same way, but it was, it was not the nasty healthscape it is now. It was so fun. It was like, I mean, it was like toxic in a different way maybe. And like journalists were always like way too online on Twitter. Like they, I think to the detriment of like their ability to understand other platforms. But as you said, it's, you know, I feel like when you really started to like gain an audience,

it was in that era that was honestly, it was also like resistance lib era of like 2016, like where it was like these like super. for like resistance accounts were getting a lot of attention. And then you had like conservative accounts growing. And like there was just a lot of like back and forth. But it wasn't, it didn't feel as like vicious, I think back then. No, it was more trolly. It was the meme era. Mims are winning the election.

You know, someone's going to jail for Hillary Clinton memes. It was it was so different. Talk a little bit more about your career. Because I feel like you kind of parlayed a lot of that attention and like kind of like the platform that you built in. into a career as an influencer and kind of like how you grew that. Because I know you worked with Turning Point at one point and it seems like you really were in sort of like the belly of the like conservative influencer ecosystem online.

So there's also a misconception that like my main source of income was being an influencer and I did make some income being an influencer, but most of the things I did were behind the scenes. So at 18 or 19, I was working on campaigns in Denver and working at four. fundraising groups and lobbying groups. And then I got involved with different conservative companies behind the scenes as opposed to public facing. And I did a lot of the influencery stuff.

But most of my work was primarily operations of different conservative organizations, different production companies, different campaign companies until I, can you feel the regret where you think back? I feel like I get like trauma flashbacks sometimes. First of all, like, I, yeah, I mean, I get trauma flashbacks and I wasn't even, I was, you know, like when you're in college and you're young and you're starting out, like, one thing I'm so glad about being like a millennial so old, but like at least we only had like Facebook, you know, and a little bit of Instagram, but it wasn't really like public in that way, you know? And I think like you came up truly in like the beginnings of that world. Like obviously conservative influencers like existed before, but like that was like MAGA 1.0. And there opportunities for influencers were. not what they are now. Like, there weren't all these trips. Like, there wasn't all this stuff. Like,

it was such a different world. And the access was much different, too. It was like within a couple tweets, it's, you know, Don Jr's talking to you and saying, great job or he's at the event you're up because it was truly more grassroots. It was like, oh, I'm here with Don Jr. and Charlie Kirk. And here's my friend Jack Posobic. And we all have these Twitter followers. And it was just so different. People forget, but like, the MAGA movement was anti-establishment. It was grassroots. Like, they really did effectively kind of like upend that old school, like Republican, RNC, like Mitt Romney, I guess, like style of republicanism. It was kind of punk.

There was something like sort of punk and counterculture about it in a way that you're like, oh, we're going against the mainstream that was, I guess, very enticing to a teenager. No, I know. I think it's hard for people to understand. And this is something I heard actually a lot on the 2016 campaign trail. And then at CPAC too, like even CPAC back in 2017, 2018, when I would talk to some of these young people, this is when turning point, probably when you were like turning point was just getting started. This was so early. Like they were just sort of getting rolling. But like a lot of the MAGA sort of youth back then, it was like they just wanted to kind of go against the system. And there was this idea of like draining the swamp. Now of course, ha, none of that's happened. They're protecting Jeffrey Epstein. But like, I don't know. Like, were you always a believer in like conservative politics? Or was it more just like, oh, I'm like getting all these access and opportunities and suddenly you're like finding yourself in it?

I think there were parts of it that were appealing because when I first went to college, I went for philosophy. And to me, philosophy, you're supposed to be open-minded and consider both sides of the argument. And right as I'm starting at as a freshman in college, Donald Trump was going to visit the school. and every head of the philosophy department signed a petition to stop him from speaking there. And I was like, whoa, hang on. You know, I disagree with some of the things this guy says, but isn't that really, like, antithetical to what we're supposed to be doing there?

And so I think some of that really vitriolic backlash, which now there's a point to be said, like, maybe they saw things we didn't see before. But in that moment, it's like it was so intense that it almost causes the inverse reaction. and I didn't experience life. I'm sitting here debating socialism and whether or not people should have health care. And I was on my dad's plan. So it was also just like, you know, I'm sitting here telling people like, oh, you know, don't get a handouts and work for your own and I'm on my dad's health care.

And so it was also just like the ignorance of youth. And again, it was one of the first eras because I don't really count the Obama era as like an influencer era. It really was Trump. And that's the first time ever that you were able to get this validation and feel like you were right even if you were wrong because it was blowing up online or you got a lot of likes. And you don't know why people are liking things. You don't know if it's because it pushes their agenda or whatever. And so there were all these crazy factors that when you're a young and hungry kid is really attractive.

Totally. I mean, I think I was talking to somebody. that went through like the Daily Callers like news journalism program or whatever. And there's so many journalists I know in media that have gone through these like sort of right wing pipelines. And it's because they exist. Like they're well funded and there's opportunities. And I totally understand being a young person. I mean, I was talking to a kid that worked for kid. He was like 22, but like worked for Doge. And I'm like, why the hell would you work for Doge? And he's like, well, I don't know. I'm an engineer. And like it's cool to work for the government and have that on my

resume. Like when you're young and ambitious, I think like you end up accepting opportunities without maybe like thinking that hard about it. And so I can totally see, especially during that era when like especially you were a young woman and they were so after like young women. You know what I mean? Yeah. And what people I also, so I was homeschooled in high school, which gave me a lot more social skills than, you know, some people who were homeschooled a bit longer. But there was also I just wanted the friend group I didn't have in high school, so to speak. And so there was very much like a yearning for some sort of community or belonging to. And I'm like, oh, my God, they like me. And that's, you know, and I felt the same way when I got invited to a party when I first started college or

whatever. So I think that was also very appealing in a way that kind of makes you ignore other ideologies or flaws in certain thinking or why I didn't critically think about the issue of health care. Yeah. Well, also it's like when you take a hard position or especially during that era of MAGA before like, I know liberals would be like Trump was always like this. Yes, but like it was a different. It was different. Trump 1.0 was radically different than sort of Trump 2.0. But that is very important though because it was not what it is now. And maybe they were more suppressed, but it was a lot easier to A lot of the isms were much better disguised in 2016. I would argue that as somebody that covered Trump, that was a fascist in my opinion.

And by the way, I consider the Democrats fascist, too. Just to be clear, I hate like so much about our political system generally. I think the tendencies were there. I think their goals were there. But I do think that there was this like at least plausible deniability or not plausible, but there was this thing that I would speak to so many Trump voters back then that were like, no, you're wrong. You're wrong.

I don't believe that he would do this. I don't believe that this would happen. And even now today, like a lot of them are like, no, no, no. You know, so I do think that there's a level of like, was this always the end goal? Like, I mean, he did run on a campaign of mass deportation in 2016. But like, I don't know. I am sympathetic in the sense that I've seen a lot of people evolve in the way that you're talking about. I also think that like when you are in the MAGA movement, there are these insufferable liberals that are terrible and are abusive and terror.

And also counterproductive. I mean, I'm thinking of like the Jasmine Crockett discourse, I guess, where there, like you can't criticize a black woman or something, like weaponizing identity in this way that like, I am sympathetic to some of the- And calling people who are very obviously not racist, racist. And, you know, that was a big turnoff when you're first forming a political ideology. But I think it's also important to understand how much, because I watch this as someone who was always public-facing in a way and always speaking out publicly, the restraints on what you could say without backlash became stricter and strict.

right? Like, if you look at the photo of Trump with the LGBTQ flag, like years ago, if that photo came out now, he would not be president at all. There would be such immense backlash from the base. And so the Overton window has certainly shifted for the Republicans. Yeah. I mean, I do think that like people would say like maybe you were you as in like the MAGA supporters were part of shifting that Overton window. though. And I'm curious your thoughts. Like I know you spoke out on Twitter recently about LGBTQ issues and you know, you're known for writing this like anti-trans children's book. And so I'm curious like how your thoughts on LGBTQ rights and gender identity and stuff has evolved as well because it seems like that's something that you've changed your mind on too. Yeah, because it's also, again, I didn't live life as a real person. I was writing a children's book before I ever had children. And so, you

You know, like I did not have any children when I wrote the children's book. But it's also just experience. And I felt a lot of guilt, especially now that it's closer to my family, the trans issue, that it's hard for me to think of causing someone who is part of my family to an extent any pain. And sometimes you do have to have those personal experiences to really wake up and say, what are we doing? Is this issue really important? Are they just demonizing a group of people to obfuscate from real issues?

And the more I would hear about this. And if you look at my page, even though I did the anti-trans book back in whenever that was, 20, 21, I think. After that, there's a few comments on the trans issue, but as it picked up steam amongst the right wing, I didn't pick up steam with it because it very much seemed like a scapego. And I felt like I was watching a very, very small percentage of the population. be used as a scapego and used as the guise of women's rights.

We care about women and girls, and it's the only time they would ever say this. And meanwhile, I'm watching behind the scenes, while very powerful people who are known within the MAGA movement and these conservative movements to be very abusive towards women, they're allowed to stay because they just do good work or they don't take women seriously. And so their own behavior and their own mismanagement of certain. abuses within the movement also caused me to rethink, like, hey, are they just using a very small demographic of people as a scapegoat? And that to me, like even the Biden Trans-Day of Visibility, I have a very public tweet because

they were upset that Biden made a Trans-Day of Visibility announcement, I think it was on Easter. And I said, guys, this has been on the same day for many years and they do it all the time. Anyone who's saying this is like an attack on America and like the transing of America, you're just, you're liars. And that was, I think, two years ago that I posted that. The hardest part for me is just figuring out how to make amends and learn because there was just a lot that I also didn't know. I was very ignorant.

It's kind of like the healthcare situation. I was, you know, saying nobody deserves health care and I'm on my dad's plan. And I'm speaking about a demographic that I really don't know or understand. And it wasn't until it affected me personally, which I know is a cliche that I was like, oh, I'm I'm really causing pain now to people in my life. Right. Well, like, for people that don't know your son with Elon, his sister, Vivian, is trans and very happily trans, like out, proud, thriving in a way that I think makes Elon like incredibly angry or something. But I'm curious what other moments broke through for you on that issue.

Like, you know, when you look back over that evolution over the past four or five years, like what were other like moments or pieces of information? There were certain companies that I worked for that I can't name, but they were very involved in the trans issue. And while there were certain things that were crazy, okay, there's a drag queen twerking at this bar, or whatever, and that's absurd, those really seem like edge cases and outliers. Even working with certain individuals, it just got really mean. And it came from, oh, we're going to highlight really extreme cases to anyone who is trans is

mentally ill and, you know, we're going to docks them. We're going to put them out here. And it just didn't sit right with me. And I knew some of these people, like through being mutuals on Twitter that were being attacked and like they were always very kind and normal human beings. And I just, it really hurt me to see that being done and think about the way that I helped push that or normalize that as well. I saw in your tweet, you know, you were saying you were hesitant to weigh in on this because you don't want to seem like you're like, oh, they're going to say like, oh, you're just being opportunistic or oh,

you're just scorned and now you're pivoting. And I feel like that happens a lot where, you know, I've talked to some other people on the right that I know have evolved on certain issues. And they don't want to speak out because they feel like it'll be seen where people will be like, oh, now you're just grifting because whatever they, you know, as if there's any place to grift on the left, by the way, there's no money on the left. Surprise, surprise. I know. And I did that when I didn't have a checkmark. Okay. So I did not make any money on that. As soon as I lost my checkmark, I was like, well, might as well say everything that I don't want to be accused of grifting on. I'm not making money on this anyway. So no, there's.

not. And I just, I'm back in school. Like, I'm not trying to start the defectors of MAGA for democracy over here. I'm trying to finish my degree and raise my kids. But I also recognize that because a lot of the turn was from my own personal experience, like, I also have to recognize that that was incredibly unempathetic of me to only recognize it when it, like, directly impacted me. And the best I can do now is, is ask people how I can help and how I can help and how. how I can be a better advocate. Like, I'm not going to go out there and say, now I'm the trans activist who speaks for everyone. But like, if there's anything I can do, I'm willing to listen and make amends for those things. Well, also, I think, I mean, now you have children too.

And you can raise your children in a loving environment and accept them no matter how they turn out, you know, which I think matters. I want them to be kind individuals. Like, if they were ever saying some of the things that I've seen online, like, I wouldn't know who they are. You know, I would be so disappointed in myself if my children spoke the way that some of these people speak about these communities. And so I have to be a better example because I was quite mean and not understanding at all. Yeah.

Well, it's like, it's so crazy too. I mean, the hypocrisy from the conservative movement as somebody that grew up around a lot of like old school Republicans where it was very much like get the government out of my life, maybe more libertarian. It seems like there's just this like aggressive. effort to police other people and police other people's like gender expression and identity and like the way they want to live their lives. I just think like they deserve the personal liberties that we all deserve, which is the right to just like live their life in peace and do whatever they want, like wear whatever they want, change their name to whatever they want. Like who cares? You know, they're not harming anyone. It's also when they, when they frame it as some mental illness,

this also insinuates that these people are well who are seeing this. And there's an incredible amount of delusion with many of these people on the right who are calling themselves men and are giant pussies. So, you know, I think they need to get themselves together. I think they need to figure out who they are and do some introspection there. I feel like one of the biggest topics in sort of like Trump 2.0 or like one of the biggest issues right now is immigration. And I think a lot of people, I've talked to a lot of Trump voters from Trump 1.0 that, say that they regret voting from a second time now that they're seeing, you know, ice in sort of like the brutality at which they're like deporting people.

Never mind, by the way, that Joe Biden was happily funding ICE and Obama. So whatever. But, you know, I think both parties are complicit when it comes to the ice stuff. But have your views on any other issues like immigration changed or like how has sort of evolving your perspective on LGBTQ rights, health care, et cetera, like, or affected like the, I guess like the way you view these other issues? So I'll preface this too by saying a lot of change is not only from my personal experience, but I do think getting off the internet for a while was very helpful because it was the first

time since I was 10 or 11 that I had been off the internet when I had this very public scandal and decided to take like a mental health hiatus for quite some time. So I was able to develop and really think about my own experiences on my own terms. And one of those was also immigration because I did a lot of reporting at the border. And I saw vast amounts of people coming in here who we did not know who they were. And from my perspective, I was like, this is a massive national security issue to not know who's coming in here and to see burned IDs and passports and buried IDs at the border. And we don't know where these children are. And at one point, I was arguing with Mark Cuban in direct messages about this issue when he was on his like Kamala spin and he was a bit of a lull cow.

And he was telling me, you know, Ashley, they're going to torture people. They're going to pull women and children out. They're going to pull grandmothers out. And Stephen Miller is going to go berserk. And I was like, that's not going to happen. You're wrong. They're just going to get the criminals out. And this is a national security issue.

And I reread those messages a couple of weeks ago. And there's like dozens of messages between us. And I'm like, oh, my God, Mark Cuban was right. Everything he said, I was like, Mark Cuban was right. And that's another thing that I feel immense guilt for. And I haven't spoken about it because I just know I cultivated an audience of right wingers because there were certain things that I said that aligned with them at the time. Okay. I think most people, again, you mentioned Biden and Obama.

I think a majority of people would say we should have some border security. We should know who's coming in the country. We should know where the children coming in the country are. But that also evolved over time to where, no, we don't want any immigrants in here. We're going to kick them all out. We're going to deport people who have been here for decades in our government. good people with no criminal history and they're sitting here saying, you know, oh, and I've repeated these talking points like, oh, it's 100% the crime rate for immigrants because they're

here illegally. But what I also realized is they love statistics, except when it's about demographics, they don't like, like that men commit 92% of violent crimes, that they commit 98% of sexual assault, sexual violence. And it was another moment where I'm like, this is really being used as a Capego. And there is some merit to having sovereignty as a country, but we should not be ripping out grandmothers and children and people who didn't do anything and shooting women in the face, moms in the face, because it was legally justifiable. Because these are the same people who were cheering me on when I was running away from National Guard for the COVID papers. You know, so there's, to me, that's logically inconsistent. And I know anyone listening to this is going to say, well, you didn't

have a car, you weren't purring their life at risk. Well, if you take the left's logic, I was because COVID and the pandemic and all of this stuff. So there is an argument for that as well. I don't know. I just don't recognize what I was a part of. And I think in the moment, it's a lot different, but looking back on things that I've said and things that I've helped usher in, like, I feel very dissociated. And I'll read it. And I'm like, did I really say that? That was something I said. Like, this isn't Photoshopped. I said that. Again, I've been very quiet on these issues. because I don't want to come out and say, now I know everything.

And now I have this, you know, flip-flopped view when in reality, the only thing I'm doing is trying to understand offline. I'm trying to speak to people. I'm trying to read. I'm trying to get information outside of tribes that I think has been helpful in developing just like a more human and reasonable understanding of all of these issues. It's interesting, too, because I feel like there's been so much fracturing in the MAGA movement. Obviously, everyone's been following the, like,

drama with the right wing influencer world. And like, there's a lot of infighting and messiness and stuff. But it also does seem like a lot. I mean, part of why Candace Owens is so ascendant is speaking out against MAGA and calling on the hypocrisies, obviously very different hypocrisies. Like with her, it's mostly about Israel and which whatever she thinks happened. The French foreign Legion, you know, killing Charlie Kirk or whatever is the latest sort of thing. But, you know, do think that she has accurately called out some of this hypocrisy. And it seems like she's been very ostracized from it. And I'm curious kind of like what your experience has been like so far.

Like it is hard to be ostracized and like have people that that were very kind to you previously like backed away or cut you off or treated you differently. Oh yeah. And people can say whatever they want about someone like me or someone like Candace, but what they can't say is that we didn't see the underbelly of that beast. And people can demean me as just some conservative e-girl grifter, but they That's really diminishing to the things that I saw and the places I was and the people I worked for and worked with. And I did see how a lot of these things operate behind the scenes and what some of the true convictions of certain individuals were.

It has been really hurtful because you also get to know these people as human beings. Like, I know their families and their kids and their parents. And they will say so loudly, we're speaking up because this is the right thing to do. And they won't speak up when someone like me, who they know is a good mom. They know that all of these things being said are not true. They're silent because they are very scared to be ostracized themselves. Because the party who is so vehemently against cancel culture is very easy to get canceled on the right. If you say, hey, I like some immigration, that's not kosher.

You're not going to be taken seriously on the right at all. You're going to be ostracized. No party for you. Even recently, Sarah Gonzalez, who I'm sure nobody knows, is a right-wing YouTuber. and she had a lot to say about my recent comments on the trans community and my apology to the trans community and the guilt that I felt. And at one point, as a gotcha, she says, everyone should unfollow her. Be careful who your heroes are, which, by the way, if I was ever your hero, just posting online, you have deeper problems than me, not, you know, feeling bad that I said mean things about trans people. But she goes on to say, and by the way, just so you guys all know, she secretly would message me years ago when I would make

jokes about repealing the 19th Amendment and tell me that that wasn't funny and that they actually want to take rights away from women. And I was like, is this like really the gotcha that I think women should vote? And I don't think your jokes are funny. So I don't know. And I look at all of this and I think many years ago I would have been more hurt by it. But I just think they're all really sad and silly people. Well, it's hard.

And I think also it's like you said it's like it's so hard to speak. I mean, I talked to another. sort of former mega influencer who went the opposite way and then became very Democrat. And I think sometimes like you feel so ostracized that you want to just like rush to like the other team or whatever and they want to use you too, you know, and then you get sort of disenchanted with this whole system. Yeah. There's so many issues with the Democrat Party.

I also don't think they're radical enough in my being honest. Like they're not radical enough for me to join because me, I'm like, I'm sitting here listening to the most powerful people in the world complain about like socialism and health care. and handouts and the handouts in question is like my mom going to the hospital when she has a heart attack. And the Democrats really have not stepped up to the plate on the real issues at hand. They're also being very trivial about the issues that are center focus on their platforms. So I'm not running into the arms of everyone, but I will say it was, it was real. I don't want to cry.

But when I put out that statement, my apology to the people that I had hurt within the trans community, There was a certain individual who did not like that very much, and now there are, you know, 122,000 posts on the subject, attacking me and threatening my family. And I wanted to cry because there were people on the left and within the trans community that were then sticking up for me. And they didn't know me that. And I'm not asking for them to do that.

And I really said quite mean things, but, like, that was, to me, like, very, that was very kind. So, I mean, I saw it. Yeah, Elon Musk is trying to, like, use the fact that you said, like, wow, I feel really bad for, you know, my role in this and my views of evolves is trying to use that as some, like, you know, excuse to take the child that you have together away and fight for full custody or something obscene, which is disgusting. And also saying that you're trying to, like, trans your child or something, which is just absurd because you're such a loving mother. Well, I can't comment that on that in particular, you know, there's, there's a lot of people who are now. sending a lot of threats. And it's put a real target on my back that people who do not have a third grade reading comprehensive level or skill set understand what I was saying in that post.

And I hope that more people feel some sort of courage to have more nuanced opinions and admit when they were wrong. Like, it's not fun for me to say, hey, I was wrong and a horrible human being and I said a lot of mean things. This isn't fun for me to do and say I was actually really stupid and really privileged and kind of an asshole. Like, that's not, I don't wake up saying, like, today I'm going to disparage myself. Like, it's not fun. For my next grift, I will call myself a bumbling, nasty idiot.

And I think that people who really know me and my support network, they know those things are true. And I've said these things privately that I said, publicly. And when I say them privately with normal people, it's met with a normal reaction. And there's this platform X, Twitter, is being very manipulated for an agenda, for certain rhetorics that appease a certain audience so that people feel that normal opinions are more abnormal than they really are. That hits at you. When there's that many people who dislike you, you're like, am I wrong? And it's, that's, that's just not the case. And people,

People need to be very cognizant of the fact that they're being manipulated. And if the internet was blown up tomorrow, I don't think they would feel this way. Yeah. I think algorithmic feeds, like, I mean, it's so interesting because algorithmic feeds also came into fruition during Trump of 1.0. I think Twitter got theirs in 2016 or 2017. But that is when algorithmic feeds started to basically reshape social media. And I think it changed the culture of so many of these platforms, especially when you have

someone at the helm of like X or Twitter or whatever or any of these that that are able to manipulate the algorithm in certain ways and push certain views. And also we know that a lot of these algorithms reward outrage and hate and right-wingers have always performed better in engagement-based algorithms. And so I think, yeah, it's like so easy to get sucked in and think that everybody believes this or that these issues are more widespread and popular than they really are. Yeah. And that's dangerous. And for the same reason that we have to regulate GROC, this is why we have to regulate these platforms, and particularly when the owner of the platform is indeed acting as an editor, in no uncertain

terms they are acting as an editor of that platform. They don't deserve Section 230 protections. And people will call me, you know, that I'm turning because I'm scorned, but do the research. I have always spoken about these issues. I've always spoken about removing Section 230 protections from big tech platforms. So I did not change as much as people think. They also changed a lot. Well, I think here's the thing. We don't want to dismantle Section 230. That allows us to have speech on the internet, in my opinion. And we have to protect free speech. If we don't protect free speech, like, what are we even doing? Like, we have no chance at resisting authoritarianism. But I completely agree that Elon Musk has sailed through with no tech regulate, like no protections. And all of the tech regulation currently is focused on censoring users and not targeting the CEOs of these companies, not targeting their business models, not holding actually. Elon Musk accountable. This is why Elon Musk himself supports the kids' online safety act. Exactly. It doesn't do anything to affect him or his business model. It affects users. And that's why when I say, you know, remove Section 230 from Big Tech because even they are so out

of control and their standards are so, like you said, misapplied to individual users as opposed to the levers of power. Even if you take Apple, for example, which I know doesn't really apply to Section 230, but big tech more generally, they are going through each one of your photos to see if they're CSAM. Yet they did not remove X from the app store when Grok was producing CSAM. And this was a very well-known problem. Neither did Google. They didn't even put out a statement on it saying, hey, buddy, could you please make the robot stop making CSAM? But they're going to go through every one of your photos. You might get stopped at the airport. I'm so scared that because I saved some of these images from Grock that I'm going to end up stuffed at TSA next time I go because Apple's gone through my camera

role and thinks I'm a pervert, but it's so misapplied. And there's really no policing within the tech community itself, within the tech billionaires themselves, and they very much protect each other and have kind of co-opted populism and issues that people are really desperate about, such as free speech, as a guise to usher in their own desires. Yeah, I mean, Elon Musk constantly posts about free speech. like literally while he's banning journalists from the app still. Travis Brown remains banned.

A bunch of journalists remain banned. It's absolutely ridiculous. But yeah. And I mean, I don't know. In terms of Section 230 reform, I don't trust the government to do that because the government is so in bed with these evil corporations that I don't trust. Like, would I personally write Section 230 a little bit differently? Maybe, yeah, if I had the opportunity, but I don't trust our current government to do that

in a way that would actually target these tech. And I guess I want to see them pass some sort of laws that would actually target these companies' business models before I trust. them to like, I guess, like, reform this like landmark law that protects so much speech online. We're going to have to go back to Buckley v. Vallejo. You know, they have now said that money is speech. So there is a very elite percentage of people who technically under the law have more speech than we do, an infinite amount. And that is very dangerous. And I think that's, that's probably a good place for people to refocus energy. Yeah. I know. I have a whole mini-series coming on

section 230. So maybe you can come back and we can discuss. I love it. I know. I always tell people, you know, there's been certain issues that you're fighting for free speech that I would call certain right wingers up. I'm like, I know you hate Taylor Lorenz, but she really loves free speech in the internet. It is like something I care about so much. And which pissed me off so much when you had like all these billionaires, you know, including the one that runs X being like, oh, Taylor Lorenz, blah, blah, blah. It's like, you can say a lot of things about me, but free speech is like an issue that I would die for. It's like the only reason I like America. Given how toxic a lot of these big tech platforms have become, are you hopping on any alternative sites like Blue Sky or

Macedon or any of these other ones? I didn't even know Mastodon was still a thing. I've had a blue sky account for quite a while. People just found it after that other tweet hit the timeline the other day. But I just don't know how to use it. Like I feel like I'm in the wilderness on Blue Sky. I see. out of tweet. I'm like, how does this work? Your UI kind of sucks, but like, here to help. But I am on Instagram at ASC.s. Y, and TikTok, sort of. Like, every now and then I try to do TikTok, but like, I'm not, they won't verify me. So I'm like scared of posting there and people impersonating the account. So I'll probably wait until I get a batch there. Well, Ashley, thank you so much for chatting with me today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

and being so open, you know, talking about this stuff, which I know is really hard and really personal for you as well. Of course. Thank you. And I swear I'm usually better at eye contact, but it's very difficult for me to talk about some of these things. I feel like such immense shame what I'm talking to you. I'm like, I feel myself hanging my head. But thank you for covering the issue too, especially as it relates to GROC. And I hope that there can be some change on this front. All right. That's it for this week's episode. If you like the show, please support me on Patreon via the link below or buy a paid subscription to my substack newsletter at usermag.co.

That's usermag.com. I publish a biweekly roundup of everything that I'm reading and seeing and paying attention to online. You can also get my newsletter via my Patreon. Again, linked below. On my Patreon, I also do monthly Q&A live streams. I post behind the scenes content. And I'm planning a lot more. I don't have any advertisers right now. So my work is 100% supported by you. Every single dollar makes such a difference. And if you like this, and you want to see it continue. Please, please, please support me via the links below. I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of Power User. See you then.