Taylor Lorenz’s Power User - Dumbphone Owners Have Lost Their Minds: The Logging Off Industrial Complex

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

Are dumb phones actually the solution to our anxieties, or are they a $400 scam built on a moral panic?~~~~~~~~~~My work is 100% self-funded and this series is not backed by any advertisers or tech giants. If you value my reporting, please, please support my channel: Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/taylorlorenz     Subscribe to my Substack:  https://www.usermag.co  ~~~~~~~~~~~~Over the past few years, a massive industry has emerged around dumb phones and the concept of logging off. From $400 minimalist dumb phones to influencers selling digital detox courses, logging off has become big business. Schools are banning phones. Politicians are blaming screen time. Media outlets are calling Gen Z “addicted.”But is ditching your smartphone actually the answer? In this video, I sat down with WIRED journalist Elana Klein to unpack the rise of the logging-off movement. We discuss how reasonable concerns over screen time have metastasized into a consumer movement selling $400 minimalist dumb phones for millions in profit. We also dive deep into the anti-smartphone moral panic , which is heavily pushed by reactionary politicians and legacy media. We explore the history of our relationship with the internet, from the tech optimism of the early 2010s and the algorithmic shift in 2016 , to the dangerous reality of school phone bans that are leading to AI surveillance and increased police interactions for students.We also talk about the concept of "smartphone addiction," what it really means, and why your issues with technology are often manifestations of much larger societal problems. Elana's piece: https://www.wired.com/story/dumbphone-owners-have-literally-lost-their-mindsMORE READING:https://www.wired.com/story/the-wired-guide-to-protecting-yourself-from-government-surveillancehttps://www.wired.com/story/guide-protect-data-from-hackers-corporationsFollow me:https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz        https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz3.0       https://www.tiktok.com/@taylorlorenz   https://bsky.app/profile/taylorlorenz.bsky.social   https://twitter.com/taylorlorenz   We cover:The history of smartphones and how our relationship to them changedWhy dumb phones are being marketed as luxury wellness productsThe moral panic around teen mental health and smartphones (and why the data is messier than you think)How figures like Tristan Harris and Jonathan Haidt shaped the anti-tech, pro-surveillance narrativeWhy "phone addiction" isn't a real clinical concept, and what you're actually feelingPractical ways to improve your relationship with technology without throwing your phone in a riverWhy the anti-smartphone movement is anti-privacy and pro-surveillanceHow to think about your phone as a tool instead of an enemy

We're not figuring out ways to make sure guns don't get into schools and like kids are having interactions with the police about their phones. Like our priorities are so deeply wrong. Over the past few years, a massive industry has emerged around dumb phones and logging off. This movement has been heavily pushed by legacy media outlets and reactionary pundits and politicians. It's presented as this radical rejection of big tech and a noble return to how life should be. But people's reasonable concerns over social. screen time and becoming overwhelmed by news have metastasized into a full-blown consumer movement, complete with $400 minimalist dumb phones and influencer gurus selling courses on how to log off.

This anti-smartphone movement is also legitimizing a very dangerous moral panic. Alana Klein is a journalist at Wired and she's the author of the piece, Dumbphone owners have lost their minds. Today she's joining me to talk about the rise of the logging off movement, how smartphones went from status symbols to scapegoats, what's driving this rising technophobia, and why our issues with technology are often just manifestations of our larger problems with labor, capitalism, loneliness, and a political economy that no digital detox will fix. We also discuss how we can all build better relationships with our phones and the internet

as a whole. Alana, welcome to power user. Thank you so much for having me, Taylor. So to start today, I kind of want to take people back to the beginning of this smartphone era, which is actually not that long ago. It's kind of crazy. I am definitely a millennial, like, so I always had brick phones. But the first smartphone didn't really come to fruition until the late aughts. We had the iPhone, which was launched in 2007. And before that, I feel like having a dumb phone was lame. When did you get your first cell phone? I got my first cell phone when I was in fifth

grade. So that was like 2010-2011-ish. And I got it because I started walking to dance class by myself. And my mom wanted me to text her when I arrived at dance class and when I was leaving dance class. And it was not a flip phone. It was like a slidey keyboard. I remember thinking it was like really cool, like the sound of it like clicking back and forth when I would text. Like I definitely felt like I'm a teenager and I had like a teenage sister. So I was like, this is super cool. Yeah, I feel like there's something about like when you get your first phone where you're like, this is it. Like I'm an adult now. I can have like contact with the world. Totally. I feel like it changed how school felt because it was like, oh, we're all going to be texting later after we leave. Like this is not our only opportunity to

socialize, have drama, like, have, like, tell people who your crushes. Like, that's going to happen after school now while we're all sitting on the couch with our families or, like, sitting at the dinner table with our families. Yeah. We mentioned 2010. And I think that was such a pivotal year. Obviously, three years post iPhone launch. 2010 was also the first time that Apple added the frontward facing camera so you could

take a selfie if you had an iPhone, which was like a very new concept back then. Instagram launched in 2010, and it was kind of like the beginning of like early social media. Obviously, there was Facebook and Twitter existed before, but I feel like the 2010s were defined by like these social networks going mainstream. And that's kind of like when that started. When did you get your an iPhone or like a phone with a camera? I feel like I was a little bit late to getting an iPhone. I remember feeling like everyone else already had one. And I think it was at the end of eighth grade.

So yeah, it was like 14. And it was like right before I started high school. I remember being very relieved that I would like start high school with an iPhone for like social reasons. Yeah, I know. Well, I feel like I mean, part of the thing with the iPhone and I know other like internet enables phones. I know some people had like androids and other things is that you could get the internet on the phone. And I feel like this is when the internet started to play a bigger role in people's lives. Like by the early 2010s even, I mean, I knew so many people that were younger that had phones just for Google Maps.

Like you said to like walk home or go somewhere just so that like their parents could know that they would be able to like find their way back places when they didn't have it. I remember having this in New York because I had just graduated and I was like living in Williamsburg, which was very cool in the early 2010s. But like I didn't know my way around. And so I like had to have my like iPhone out all the time to like go on Google Maps. And like it just was playing a bigger and bigger role in people's lives, I feel like. How old were you when you got your first? iPhone? My first iPhone was after college because my parents weren't buying me an iPhone. I had like a Nokia all through high school, which was lame. I really wanted the, you know, because again,

this is I'm a millennial. This was like the 2000. So the razor like flip phones were were considered cool. When the iPhone launched, I remember being like, I want that. I mean, it's so funny too because like as millennial, like you would go on Facebook on like desktop. But I remember you could like take pictures with the iPhone. And like that was a big thing to upload all your pictures to Facebook photos. At the time, I think like, again, smartphones were aspirational. Like it was exciting to get a smartphone. Like nobody who wanted the dumb phones that was seen as lame. And I think that kind of continued for definitely the first half of the 2010s. It was like excitement about smartphones, but also excitement about apps. Everybody was like, oh, I heard of this new app and this new app and

like, you should download it. And it was like, that sounds so cool. I feel like apps were like gimmicky. Oh, there's the app where like you tip it back and it looks like you're drinking beer. You had to get like an app for the flashlight and you had to get an app for like a calculator or maybe they had a calculator, but I feel like I had so many apps on my phone that like didn't come with my phone already.

I remember like games. We had like apps where you could just kind of like tap through like memes, like the very old version of memes. And you could tap through like artsy wallpapers. Well, making your phone aesthetic, was like a thing. You could even like jailbreak your phone and like make it all like the apps sort of like consistent colors. And I feel like people really started to think of their phones as like an extension of their own personal aesthetic or like personal brand. And like iPhone cases also were kind of like part

of that. I don't know. It was exciting. And the early 2010s were full of like so much tech optimism and hype and Obama was like, you know, rewarding the tech industry with like friendly regulation. And This was also like peak tech blogging industry as well. And I remember the first time hearing of someone like, I wouldn't say not liking the internet, but starting to think critically about like its effect on our lives was actually this essay written by this guy, Paul Miller. I think I was telling you about this on the phone. But he was this like famous writer for The Verge.

And in 2012, he quit the internet for a year. He wrote basically that the internet was having this like massive effect on our lives. And he started to think about like, what was? his life be without technology? A year later, in 2013, he came back and he basically wrote that this was like the worst year of his life, that he was totally wrong to have quit the internet, and he was like very depressed. He said, I thought the internet was making me unproductive. I thought it lacked meaning. I thought it was corrupting my soul. It's been a year now. I'm supposed to tell you how it's solved on my problems. I'm supposed to be enlightened. I'm supposed to be more real.

But instead, he essentially talks about just like the decline of his life. This essay had such an effect on me. I remember being terrified and being reading it and being like, whoa, who would ever do? That's crazy. Like, why would somebody do that? And it kind of makes sense to me that it didn't go well because I feel like that's when the internet and real life started to become one, especially with social media becoming like it wasn't just Facebook at this point. Like, I don't know, this is 2013. There was Instagram, Tumblr, Snapchat, I think also.

And when the internet and real life become more enmesh, to use the word, getting off the internet is not just getting off the internet. It's really majorly disrupting that collaboration of the internet and real life. I mean, I think by the early 2010s, even though smartphones were still, like, new and exciting, the internet itself had already kind of worked its way. into so much of our social lives and just planning events, sending event invites, like maps, again, to know where you're going, just like connection and also texting and all these other things we do generally like online or sending DMs. Paul wrote in his essay, he wrote, there's a lot of reality in the virtual and a lot of virtual in our reality. And I thought that was like a good way of putting it kind of similar to something you wrote in your wired piece recently. But it's interesting

because this is also the same year that Tristan or Tristan, I always say his name wrong, Harris, founded the Center for Humane Technology. Are you familiar with Tristan Harris at all? I'm familiar with the center of humane technology, but I don't know about its origins or anything. So he, it was a Google engineer that sort of famously like quit Google and his whole thing is like anti-tech. Like he's like, I saw the belly of the beast, you know, and I know how bad and evil everything is. And now I'm starting this movement. And it's very funny because at the time, he was very anti Snapchat. This is like when I was like, this man is my op because I was addicted to Snapchat.

Do you remember Snapchat streaks? Of course. Those were so important socially, like who you had streaks with and how long your streaks were with those people said so much about you half the time. You would do everything to keep them up. Like it was this whole thing. And it's so funny because I remember hearing Tristan Harris talk about, you know, the dangers of the youth on Snapchat and he was bringing up streaks and he said it was like you and your friend are on a

treadmill together and you're tied on the treadmill and you can't get off and it's this like miserable thing and I actually just thought it was terrible because like okay yes was it stressful sometimes because you were like going to lose a streak and you were like let me just send some like you know shit right before but also like it was actually a very like pro social feature and when you think about it now and think about how like disconnected the internet has been this like feature that actually encourage you to directly with somebody else on a daily basis is actually kind of like everything that these like anti-tech people claim that they want from technology. Right. I feel like Snapchat was for all of its issues, it was kind of wholesome in the sense that there was no public feed and it was just another way to communicate with people that was picture based at its best. That's what it was. And I feel like there are times now that I miss Snapchat because I see something on the street that I want to send to someone. And I'm like, it feels like so much work to like, you know, take the photo, send it on

iMessage, and then it's in my camera roll. And it kind of feels like it's like clogging up my phone. And I feel like Snapchat really took the pressure off that kind of casual. Yeah, like I miss that version of social media and that version of the internet. And it feels kind of sweet looking back. Yeah. One thing that's interesting about Snapchat, too, is like it opened to the front facing camera. It launched in 2011.

It was initially called Pickaboo. And then it switched very quickly to Snapchat. But that was really novel at the time, because 2013 is also when you started to see this moral panic start to emerge about cell phones and the internet and its effect on people. This is three years into the front facing camera when more and more teenagers, especially young women,

were taking selfies. In 2013, actually, selfie was declared word of the year. I wrote a story on the 10th anniversary of selfie being declared word of the year, where I went back and pulled all this old news footage, but like Obama taking a selfie was like a week-long news cycle. Like, and there's this woman, Gene Twenge, who's unfortunately still out here today with Jonathan Haidt, like, pushing all this nonsense.

But she was basically arguing that like, if you took selfies, that was going to turn you into like a narcissistic sociopath. And just like the concept of like putting yourself in photos was making you narcissistic. And so people would see this with like cell phones and stuff. And it was always like rooted in like a lot of misogyny and hatred of like teen girls too. But it would be like, they're addicted to that. This is like the beginning of this concept of internet addiction too. It was like they're addicted to taking phones.

And that idea of like addicted to taking phones was like always tied with like narcissism. And like you're taking photos of yourself and how could you do that? And it's funny because I feel like the first time I heard of people having negative relationships to social media or the internet did have to do with body image and like self absorption and women. And I feel like it had to do with Tumblr and like the pro eating disorder side of Tumblr. And it was kind of also during that whole movement of like the dove commercials, like don't retouch photos, like that whole thing.

Well, it's interesting because the body positivity movement grew out of the internet. Like it was a reaction to traditional media's like very limited, you know, use of different women's bodies. It was like you only saw one. And I mean, another thing that's kind of related to what you're talking about is filters, like Snapchat pioneered the concept of filters. And people, there was also like that panic of like, well, what's the thing? going to do when these girls are addicted to seeing their faces with filters on it like kim kardashian you know you're going to do plastic surgery and it's going to ruin you and 2013 and 2014 is also when we started to hear in the news about fomo which i don't think anybody really uses that term as

much anymore but it was like that concept of like people online like it's making them miserable to see photos online of other people like that just makes you miserable and it's like i don't know if it's that deep, honestly. I also think people have felt left out for generations. Like, I don't think our parents, like, didn't feel left out in high school when they found out other people were at parties. Like, they just heard about it the next day, like, instead of on Snapchat. I just feel like a lot of the fomo and body image, things like that, history is not really being taken into account and like people have been miserable for so long like it's like we're not the first generation to feel insecure the filter thing always kind of annoyed me because it also allows for

self-expression and it allows people to feel comfortable in self-expression i remember interviewing an engineer at snap chat about this where he was like a lot of people are too scared to reach out too scared to maybe message someone or record themselves and share their ideas and thoughts and putting a funny filter on their face or even just like a skin smoothing effect actually gives them the confidence to express themselves and that's a good thing and that gives them the confidence to maybe reach out or share that selfie with a friend and yes societal beauty norms are a problem but that's bigger than this one app that is actually very like encouraging again like people to like reach out and connect and i i think of that myself like even just like putting on makeup or something before

you like go on camera like you know there's not a similar kind of panic about it but it's that's kind of ultimately just like all it is you know and we don't villainize like i mean we should villainize like again people that take advantage with insecurities and profit off of it yeah that sucks but it's not like the internet and the cell phones that are doing all of that necessarily yeah and actually what you said about filters reminded me i have a friend who always says that it's easier to talk to people and flirt with people at a Halloween party because everyone's in a And like, there's something a little disarming about that. And what you just said about filters,

I actually have never made that connection, but it's so true. And yeah, there's such a parallel in real life. Like when you're wearing a silly costume, it's just so much easier to talk to people and be yourself, weirdly. And you put the puppy filter on your face, and it's fine.

I feel like the real change and like, I mean, yes, there were these moral panics. Yes, you had like the Atlantic running these, like, these like scare articles about women taking selfies or, you know, the media sort of pushing this stuff. But it was still very early and there wasn't really widespread outrage. I feel like we didn't start to see a shift in things until 2016, which was this like really pivotal year because that's the year that we saw Instagram and Twitter introduce algorithmic feeds. Obviously, we had Trump selection. And it was the beginning of what's known as the tech lash. The tech lash for people that don't know,

sort of just this term that like the media applied to this broad-based like flip in how people viewed technology. So pre-2016, it was like tech optimism. We love technology. What could ever go wrong? I think Trump's election and Brexit were both very quickly attributed to like Facebook. People didn't want to acknowledge a lot of the underground kind of shifts in our political system. And so the media narrative was very much like Trump was good on Facebook. That's why he won. That's not why he won and it was sort of part of it maybe, but like it was actually a lot more complicated. But you know, following that, we had the Cambridge Analytica Scanall.

We started to have like, I think a lot of these apps that were exciting in the early 2010s that were bolstered by VC funding started to turn around and have to generate a profit. So everything started to get a little more expensive. You weren't getting free Uber rides anymore. And people's just energy around technology and specifically like the stuff on their phone started to get a lot more negative. Yeah, and I think with the 2016 Instagram trend now, which I know you made a video about, like, people are really recognizing that 2016 was the shift. Like, I feel like people see pictures of themselves from kind of right before Trump's election, and they're like, who is that version of me?

Like, I think because we've become so much more online while the experience of being online has really degraded for a lot of people. It's really easy to romanticize that time and be like nothing was wrong and everything that's happened since 2016, which was a super pivotal year in many ways, is because of the internet. Well, I think people's relationship with the internet changed so quickly because it felt so fun and novel and really friend based again because you had like Snapchat was so sort of mainstream at that time. Instagram was really just the feed. They launched stories in 2016 as well. But again, this was like when we saw the beginnings of the algorithmic internet right at a time when there was ultimate chaos. Like that first Trump presidency, there was so much news. Like I was a political reporter at the time in DC and I remember just like every single day,

there was something and like you would be on Twitter. Everybody was like getting a lot of news from the internet. And it felt like the smartphone started to be this like portal to stressful information. And you started to see people just get very overwhelmed and start wanting to like check out a little bit. Definitely. And it's interesting because I was a teenager when all of this was happening.

And so it's always really hard for me to separate, like how much of this was me just coming into myself and like being aware of the world around me for the first time and how much of this was because of my New York Times notifications on my phone and the algorithmic feed. It's really hard. I've talked about this with friends of mine who are my age, like, it's really hard to parse out why that time was so stressful and why that time was

so pivotal, like, internally. And it's like, well, was I 16 or was I on this weird new version of Instagram and Facebook? And I think it's a little bit of both. And I feel like maybe for you, it's a little easier to kind of find the source. But I just think high school, as the backdrop for Trump's election and all these changes in social media. It's just a little weird. It's always just weird to part. It's hard to parse out pretty much. Yeah. No, I was talking to a younger cousin of mine about that exact thing. We were debating like, yeah, is it just like you're going through like puberty at a really hard time too? And like that's all tied up at it. And I actually think what's so insidious is, and we'll get into this a little bit later,

but this like anti-smartphone kind of movement, which is really driven. by like boomers. Like let's be clear, it's like Jonathan Hyatt and like these people that are in their 60s that like are affiliated with, you know, the Heritage Foundation, like really regressive people are selling this idea to a lot of like Gen Zers and like young people that like, oh, it's the phones and this is what this is what you should blame, you know, like on all of these issues. When a lot of them actually, as you said, like kind of came into adulthood at this really pivotal time and they can't separate those things. And so they're very like easily swayed by this narrative.

And I just want to tell everybody as somebody that was a teenager before then, like, actually being a teenager just sucks no matter when it's, or it's good, but it's like hard. You know, it's really hard. Adolescence is hard. Adolescence is also always when we see surges and like eating disorders, mental health problems, like all of these issues. And I think that like this narrative about like the phones, like destroying everything. It's like, it's a simple one, but it was hard. And also like, I'm sure there's people that are like, oh, well, you're a millennial. You still had Facebook. Like, I'm sure it was hard in the 90s, too. I'm sure it was hard, like he said, in the 80s. I'm sure it was hard, like, you said, in the 50, like, no matter when you grow up, like, there's always something. Right. And it's like, I was super emotional and moody in high school. And it would be pretty easy to convince me, like, oh, well, that's when you started scrolling on an algorithmic feed.

And there were pictures of girls with really hot bodies. And you were learning about Trump's every, you know, every new thing Trump said. Like, it's pretty easy to. draw a correlation there, but also I was just 16. And the internet was getting worse. And so it's like, it's easy to blame that. Like the internet, I think people's experience, I think people were on such a high during the Obama internet and like, again, this like initial excitement about all of these things.

And then like, it feels to me like by 2018, people were starting to like come down to reality and just be like, okay, there's more nuance with this stuff. Like it's not all good. It's not all bad. This is also like the era of like prank YouTube. Like I think like Vine shut down in 20, 2016 as well. And like this is when we started to see the rise of like Jake Paul team 10 house like David Doberk like crazy. Like it just seemed like the whole internet was getting more extreme and outlandish and crazy. And like I understand why people started to feel overwhelmed. 2018 is also when the word doom scrolling was coined, which I think caught on so quickly because people felt like this word like they finally had this word to kind of like describe the way that they were feeling. I wish I could really pinpoint when I started.

doom scrolling or when I started kind of involuntarily scrolling and like, you know, being up at 1 a.m. with the lights off with my phone in my eyeballs, like it's hard to remember when it turned from fun to feeling like a chore almost. I think also with algorithmic feeds, you don't feel that sense of completion. Like, I feel like I used to go on my phone and be like, okay, I kind of like got the vibe of everything that happened that day. And I think like there was so much news happening, but also like algorithms and just like giving more content. You just feel like you, you kind of never feel like you catch up. And also I think this is a time when people's social networks are growing, which I think is what's so insidious too for really anyone that's like

millennials and Gen Z. It's like this was this time in your life where you were either in your 20s or your teens and you were like making more friends. You were changing, evolving. And like that's just a stressful process in itself is kind of like, finding yourself. And I think that, yeah, like doing all of that during like the Trump years was crazy. And so it makes sense that this is right when we start to hear about this idea of like digital minimalism and checking out. And you start to see articles about people that they quit their cell phones that are quitting. You know, they're logging off. They're tapping out. They're they're not, they refuse to doomscroll. And I remember like seeing those headlines and being like, that must be

nice, you know. Yeah, I guess at that point, I didn't even really understand why people were doing that and I didn't consider trying to reduce my screen time. And I think that's before it even became popular to track your screen time. I feel like people talk about screen time now. That really wasn't a thing then. And I remember being like, yeah, being on the internet is a little less fun than it was. I'm still having fun and it feels a little bit holier than thou to not want to be on your phone.

Like a little elitist almost. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, I think what's interesting is 2018 is also when Apple iOS released the ability to track screen time. And I'm not even sure if it was separated by apps in the beginning. But this was something that like nobody was tracking. I mean, that that feature didn't even exist until 2018. And ironically, 2018 is also when we start to see the.

first dumb phones, not like the old phones that, you know, like your mom has a flip phone or something still, but like phones that were specifically designed for what they called mindful communication. The first in 2018 was called the punked P-U-N-K-T, very funny name. And it was like really fancy designed. It was like supposed to be beautiful. It looks like a calculator, basically. And in the announcement about this, they say customers are much more aware of the pitfalls of smartphones, which basically he calls attention to like smartphone addiction and cyberbullying. And I think it's kind of funny because this is like this was all these are all very like new concepts in 2018 and 2019. Yeah. And I think that's when you started to hear the addiction framework being applied.

And I just feel like the premise behind that is a little bit weak, which is this is inherently a poison to me and like there are no benefits to this. And if like the framework that I try to see this through is this is a tool that has given me so much, but I'm also aware that it's designed my people who don't have my best interest in mind. And so as much as I get frustrated by like the cultural and personal impact of my phone, I think we can acknowledge that like it's awesome to have a camera wherever we go. And like it is awesome to have Google Maps and to be able to see what restaurants of the cuisine that you would like to eat right now. now are nearby. Like that is pretty cool. I feel like the addiction framework really discounts the genuine benefits and like joys of smartphones. It feels like revisionist history because I just

feel like so many positive things in my life have come from my smartphone. I think that's such an important point, which is like you can't really separate like your life from your phone. And I think that's what makes like a lot of these frameworks so enticing to people. I think that addiction framework was also very captivating for the media. You saw GQ and other entertainment publications run pieces with headlines like, as mobile phone addiction becomes more pervasive, celebs are ditching their devices. They talk about Elton John, Robbie Williams, Shailene Woodley, all of these celebrities that like quit their mobile phones. You also started to see reviews of alternative phones. Like there was this $350 mini smartphone called the Palm, which

was supposed to be free from digital distraction because it was so small, so it would be hard to use, I guess. It's just like kind of interesting because it was positioned very much as this like resistance to big tech. And I think they capitalize very effectively early on on people's sort of anger at the tech industry and feeling like the tech industry was responsible for Trump and that you were kind of like a better person. If you were fighting back, it was like this moral thing to do. There was a bunch of like stuff around motherhood too where moms that were on their phones. and I think this is so insidious were really villainized. And these mom, like mommy websites were running stories like getting rid of my smartphone, saved my ability to be a mother.

It made me a better mom. And I hate this so much as somebody that now has a bunch of friends with little young children because you are literally trapped. Like when you have a baby stuck on you for hours or they're sleeping in your arms, you're just at home. You can't go anywhere. Like smartphones are a little lifeline that can really save you from things like postpartum depression.

Yeah. And just even if you don't have postpartum depression, like the isolation of taking care of a newborn, like you're on a totally different schedule than everyone else, and you can't hang out with your friends. I feel like my older sister, like, face-times me with my nephew all the time, and like, I would hate for her to not have a smartphone

as a parent because of that. Like, it's really strengthening, like my whole family's relationship to this child because his mother has the resources, is to like have him socialize with us when we are not there. Yeah. And like I don't know. I also think of all the stuff that you can like Google or take a picture and send

to your doctor. Like these things are really important. And I think it's just so terrible to be like villainizing it and framing these new moms as like smartphone addicts. And again, back to that framing of addiction. I completely agree with you. I mean, I've had people on my channel before talk about this. But the concept of like smartphone addiction is just not a thing.

It is not a real thing. It's just as with the way that like telephone addiction is not a real thing on the landlines, which they tried to claim as well. It's very silly. You can use your phone in all different ways and there are, you know, productive ways and less productive ways to use your phone. But ultimately these are tools. And we see the constant kind of villainization of that and like what that does to people.

I think it also just like stigmatizes people looking for connection that are reaching out, that are using their phone that what they're spending a lot of time on their phone because they need that. And it like tells them that they should. feel shame for that or that is wrong or that is a behavior that they should be curbing. Definitely. And I think a lot of people's frustrations with smartphones are actually frustrations with the current super commercialized and just not fun iteration of social media. And so I feel like something like trying to reduce your screen time or trying to spend time more intentionally

feels a lot more of a reasonable ask of people living in today's world that is full of smartphones then like throw your phone out the window and buy one that doesn't really do much. Yeah. And I feel like right as we're starting to see this stuff emerge, starting to see the beginning of people panic about their relationship to their phones. COVID hits and shoves everyone online and mobile phones become essentially central to all forms of communication. Everybody's doing everything on their phones. It's also kind of where we saw so much content in 2020. It's like where you're watching the police brutality videos. It's where a lot of of people saw, you know, the George Floyd video for the first time, like, everything is moving to this,

like, mobile-centric world. And I feel like it was like, I don't know, suddenly smartphones were really important, you know? It's like you had to have a phone to like really participate in life that year. It's impossible for me to imagine that time without a smartphone. It felt essential, not just for the social aspect. It felt essential for like my safety and the safety of the people around me to like be checking the COVID rates every morning when I woke up and like that's not specific to my phone. That's just the internet. But you know, I feel like I would just kind of walk around checking if we like flatten the curve or whatever. And also right, at that time, there was just so much stuff going on that people really wanted minute by minute updates on

because because we didn't have stuff going on in our personal lives then. I feel like it was a nice time to be over-invested in the news. And that's kind of how you connected with the greater world. I think also, I mean, something that was so notable about 2020, everybody getting it online primarily through smartphones, which are, I think most people's primary portal to the internet, is that phones really started to be used as this tool for like social justice and the internet and social media. This is why Trump wanted to originally ban TikTok because people were leveraging it to, you

know, do climate activism to mess up his rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, to do all of this like activism and change. You started to see a lot more. videos, mobile phone, cell phone recorded videos being used, not just for, you know, the police brutality stuff with George Floyd, but everything. I remember during the early days of COVID, people videoing inside hospitals, you know, when they were claiming they were trying to downplay the deaths and there were videos from inside of like dead bodies being loaded into trucks. And like, I think people started to recognize that like phones, cell phones, internet access, social media

access, these are all very powerful tools for social justice and for social change. And we could collectively organize by. using these technologies in ways that we hadn't before. And I think that really scared like the government, obviously they tried to like ban some of these apps, like tamped down on all this stuff. This is also when you start to see the beginning of like this freak out from people in power where they're where they don't want phones. They're like, wait a minute, I don't want to be recorded. I don't want accountability. Like phones are really dangerous. Like I mean, you also had a lot of kids like using their phones to speak out against their parents, you know, whether they're trans, LGBTQ, like all these

things. It was giving people a voice who had not previously had a voice. And I think that was terrifying to people in power, which makes it even more insidious when we see 2021. Biden comes into office. He really pushes this narrative of like, guess what, everyone, COVID suddenly disappeared. Everybody get back to work. We're opening up the economy. Also, it was like get off your phones. It was very like, get off. It's time to go back to the real world, quote unquote, and you need to, you know, get off the internet, basically. This is the beginning of like the modern kind of smartphone moral panic like propaganda push. And I think it's so important for people to understand that it was always very intertwined

with politics because you started to see the right especially, start to weaponize this very early. I feel like in 2021, like when COVID was sort of declared over, I remember thinking like, why would I ever use my phone ever again? Like I have to take full advantage of like my real life and the physical. physical world and the idea of being in my room on my phone was nauseating to me. And I feel like that's when the idea of reducing my screen time or thinking a little more critically about my smartphone use just, it became more appealing to me. And I kind of understood that a little better.

I think people, especially young people that went through these like formative years in 2020 were very like associated that with trauma. I think everyone, I guess, like had some trauma from that year. maybe in different ways. And I think being on your phone a lot was associated with that trauma. And so this narrative of like get off your phone and maybe your phone is helping cause that trauma was so seductive. And it's like, no, what caused the trauma was the start of the global pandemic and like people dying and all this other horrible stuff that was going on and like social upheaval. And actually 2020 itself was like a time of a lot of social progress and like collective change.

And I think the government and everybody in power is just very much like, okay, forget about that's all over. again, back to work. And you see the media push on this hard. They're like doing all these features about like getting back into the real world, offline events, like these kids are going clubbing again. New York Magazine ran that like vibe shift article. And I get it. And people did want to like they wanted to kind of lean into that denialism and kind of

move forward. And so into all of this in 2022 is when we see the kids online safety act start to be pushed. This is obviously a very horrible law that is mostly. focused around removing LGBTQ people from the internet. It's the beginning of many of these laws that would restrict smartphone use, restrict online speech, give the government essentially complete control over online speech, remove anonymity from the web. And this was a very enticing thing. Like, I mean, this was like something that people were excited about. You started to see a lot of Gen Zers, like the design it for us kids, say like, I'm Gen Z and smartphones have ruined my life.

So let's pass these restrictive laws and keep kids. offline. Yeah, I mean, I think if you're unhappy and you're convinced that that is the fix to your problems, it's really easy for me to imagine how an adult saying, here is this organization that is like going to fix your problems, you should promote this and you'll be like a social justice warrior. And if you are personally unhappy with your social media use and if you're unhappy with like the broader cultural impact of smartphones or what you think is the broader cultural impact of smartphones is easier for me to understand how vulnerable young people could be brought into this movement. Yeah. And of course they're given millions of dollars for saying this.

Like the heritage foundation is like, yes, we love this. The New York Times will profile you a million times over. I always said this and I said this with love. I worked on the style section at the times for a while myself. But like if you are an 18 year old and you show up and you say all the things that some 65-year-old wants to hear, like, you're going to get a profile. Like, they're going to be excited to write about you. This is also when the TikTok ban just a year later starts. October 7th happens. Again, people start to get a lot of information on their phone.

They start using their phone for social justice issues to push, you know, messaging to challenge the government. This is when the government is like, no, no, no, we're going to ban TikTok. You know, we want to remove smartphones from schools. Like, we need to crack down on this hard. And the media goes along very much with it. You see even the verge running pieces. is like in celebration of the dumb phone, a rare sanity saving gadget.

And this is also when you started to see on right wing YouTube channels and like in right wing media, this idea of this like smartphone addicted like liberal woman being the problem. And like the problem is these people are too online, which is so ironic because no one is more online than like the far right. But there was this villainization of, you know, being on TikTok using the internet too much. And this is why we have to, you know, get everybody off smartphones. And this is also when we start to see the smartphone. Bands emerge. So banning them in school, in some cases trying to ban them on the way to and from school. Jonathan Haidt starts his wait till eighth campaign where he tries to prevent young people from getting access to smartphones until they're in eighth grade.

It was really like the birth of this super reactionary movement. There's this website that I used for a story I wrote a while ago called The Pessimus Archive. And it chronicles the history of hysteria and moral panic about new technological developments. And it's really funny and really kind of reassuring in a way to just see that this moment is not unique. And like, I feel like I've been really susceptible to feeling like all my problems are because of my phone and all my problems are because of social media. And then you read things looking through this website. Like, in 1912, a headline ran vile moving pictures corrupting the morals of countless children. And this was just about film.

In 1990, an article about The Walkman is titled, Technology is Making Us Uncivil. They thought that the Walkman was really rewiring people's brains. Like, I think they really worried that, like, being able to listen to music on the go was, like, fundamentally changing people's experience of the world, which is so crazy. And it's funny you mentioned the 90s,

because so many of these cell phone ban laws are written based off these previous laws in the 90s around beepers, which were actually horrible. And it's sort of the beeper bands were always used as this example of moral panic's gone too far because hundreds of kids ended up getting arrested and having interactions with the police based on these bands. And we're already seeing stuff like that happen with the cell phone bans where we see data came out saying that black students are being suspended at higher rates, that police officers in schools are the ones that are tasked with enforcing these bands. So kids are having a lot more interactions with police. They're essentially stop and frisk policies where like these now campus resource officers, aka police officers in schools, can just go around and kind of like harass anyone if they think that you have a phone. They're also rolling out these cell phone bans in conjunction with AI surveillance software.

The number one reason parents oppose cell phone bans in schools is because of school shootings. Makes sense. We never want to do anything about school shootings. And so they're telling parents, don't worry, we're banning the phones, but we're also rolling out AI software that can detect school shooters, by the way they walk. And we saw this happen just to come. couple months ago what happened in Baltimore where this kid was tackled to the ground by a cop because he had a Doritos bag and the AI software misinterpreted as a gun, you know, and you see them doing face, mass facial recognition. Like, I don't feel comfortable if I had a child in school. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the AI surveillance. So I'd much rather them to just have

a cell phone than have this like AI surveillance system harvesting data on them all day. But I think these bands have been so effective. And again, I'll say, I'm all for kids putting their phones away during class. You don't need a law to do that, by the way. But I think these laws are tied up in this like reactionary legislative movement. And we need to recognize that. Yeah. And I mean, when you bring up school shootings, it makes the moral panic surrounding phones sounds so ridiculous that that's what we're banning from schools. We're banning phones from schools. And we're not figuring out ways to make sure guns don't get into schools. And like, kids are having interactions with the police about their phones. Like, our priorities are so deep.

I mean, I think so much of this is can be attributed to this man, Jonathan Haidt. One of my nemesies, I guess, this man drives me crazy. He wrote this book called The Anxious Generation, which is literally just like pseudoscience slop, you know, blaming smartphones for everything in the world. And it's really regressive. Like he has a lot to say about like young liberal women and how they, you know, they're inherently more anxious. He's promoted very fringe conspiracy theories about trans people, the idea that the internet is essentially

turning kids gay and trans. Like, it's bad. But this stuff has become really popular. And I think this movement against cell phones, not only is a very reactionary political movement with some really scary goals, like mass censorship and surveillance, it's also become kind of this like capitalistic enterprise in itself.

And to me, like this is like, there's this whole like kind of logging off industry that we're seeing now, which is so insidious. Yeah, I feel like I've noticed the commercialization of hanging out. And like Bumble has like, meetups or like hinge has like meet up I mean you know all the dating apps and I just feel like I get ads on Instagram for like hanging out or ads for having dinner with people and it's like

why am I getting an ad for like sitting and talking and I feel like before COVID that never would have been a thing and so yeah I feel like there's like the hanging out industrial complex and it kind of creeps me out as someone who hangs out for free and not sponsored by a brand quite frequently. It's like the IRL industrial complex, honestly. Like I for a while was getting so annoyed with this where I was literally tracking and I have some folder in one of my email inboxes of like spam, PR spam that was like, we're getting people to log off. We just want everyone to log off and come to our brand activation or like log off and do this. Like and yeah, and just people are sort of like selling this and you start to see these de-influencing log off

influencers, which drives me crazy too because people like the accountable tech people or design it for us or Jonathan Haidt, all these people, they are more on social media than anyone. Their entire brand is built off social media. Their whole thing is like quit smartphones, quit social media. I'm like, please, you first, you first, because you guys are posting 24-7 about how evil the internet is. And you're on Twitter doing that. Like you're on Instagram doing that.

Like these log off influencers are like, they're on Instagram selling you, you know, their dumb phone that they get a like a commission. from. Totally. And it reminds me of the criticisms of trad wives and how they're against women having businesses and like women having jobs. And it's like it's your job to tell me to not have a job. It's kind of the same thing. It literally is. I mean, there's this article that trigger me so hard from the AP that came out recently titled social media addictions surprising challenger, anti-dooms scrolling influencers. And you know, there's this girl, Olivia unplugged. And she's a TikToker.

She's a TikToker with hundreds of thousands of followers. And she's promoting this app called Opal, which I've seen run some of the most deranged misinformation. I get their targeted ads on Instagram now, where they really make you feel horrible about yourself. They make you feel awful. They are pushing this idea that all of your problems in life are because of your smartphone and you just have to download their app where they harvest your data.

And, you know, you can track your screen time or something. Yeah. And also they are using shame as a way to get people to download their app, which I feel like during COVID, we kind of learned that like shaming people is not a good way to get people to like follow the rules. I feel like there's a lot of discourse about that. Like shame is like a public health tactic. And it's like, I don't really want to be scrolling and then see this company be like, hey, are you like rotting in bed and do you have bags under your? eyes and are you wasting like years of your life on this device? Well, it's also like that's not the problem here. Like the smartphones are not the problem. And I mean, Opal sells all this merch where they have phones and it says doom

scrollers anonymous. You know, is you're scrolling out of control? There's hope. And this is all just commercializing like this. No hate to like Olivia unplugged. But there's all these influencers where I know how much it takes to be a social media content creator. This is an.

enormous amount of work that you're doing every day to edit, produce content. Like you said, there is, it is so trad wife coded in a sense of like the hypocrisy is just appalling. And it's just really confusing more than anything because it's like, you don't want me to log off because then I won't watch your videos and then you won't have all these followers that allow you to make money off of telling me to log off. It just clearly the intended purpose can't be to actually get people to log off if her business is thriving because people aren't logging off. The attended purpose is to boost their personal brand to make money. And this is my problem with these Gen Z influencers that, you know, claim to be against

big tech, but they really just go around providing this convenient front for these child safety mass surveillance laws where they're like, you know, yeah, I'm Gen Z and it ruined my life and that it. I'm like, your life seems great. You're getting millions of dollars from companies affiliated with pushing their Heritage Foundation's political goals. I think you're fine. And again, you're on here building your brand online, like all of us. So, and the media plays such a key role in it because so many editors, I think, are our parents. And like, there are these places that like, they're not

necessarily tech reporting places. They're more like mainstream news orgs that like are very susceptible to these narratives in these pitches. I think of even just this like lifestyle feature on the Guardian that they launched recently where it's like, what's in your analog bag? Ideas for going screen free. It looks like they have some partnership with like this newsletter about like, you know, getting offline and putting your phone away. And I've seen people do this where they're like, try to leave home without your phone, you know, like, but here's some other products to sell you that will like conveniently like get rid of your. And it's like, you're just trying to sell me products. That's really what all of it's about. The fact that the solution to being on your phone too much is

to buy a different phone versus like leave your phone at home when you go on a walk with a friend. Like, great. There's an irony to the fact that they're, adding something to your life as a means of trying to make your life more peaceful and less chaotic. And there are so many ways to accomplish what they say their product will accomplish by actually having less in your life. A hundred percent true. And I also just think of how difficult it is to live a phone-free life and how privileged people are.

We know that actually higher income white kids in suburban areas are actually less likely to have cell phones than their poorer peers, which actually has made them. have worse mental health, which there was a big study that came out a while ago that showed that like these kids were actually simultaneously more privileged, but more depressed because they were less socially connected because they didn't have ways to connect with their friends. Whereas the kids that were less privileged were actually spending more time outside and exercising even more because they were able to use their phones to make plans. And this is what bothers me too about all these like constant features in the media of like celebrities that quit their phone. It's like, well, if I was Aziz, I'm sorry. If I was a major mega rich celebrity, yeah, I could have an assistant follow me around and print out directions drive me everywhere. But we live in the real world. Right. And if you're an A-list celebrity, you're still going to get work if you don't have your phone on you at all times. Like I think about like a struggling actor, just like a regular working actor, like they can't not have their phone on them because what if an opportunity comes up? It's like we live in a world full of smartphones where people are going to reach out to

you like professionally or like, you know, people need to like respond to their bosses on time. Like it's like the average person cannot just like ignore everyone else. Well, Alana, I think what you said is so important for people to understand, which is like, this is the world. Unfortunately, the entire world runs on smartphones. And when you do these smartphone bands, I was at a school interviewing parents and children in an urban area of LA. And you know, these bands have had devastating effects on the poor income schools where a lot of the kids and the parents do shift work. And like it or not, that is all coordinated often the day of for the day of for the day. day before via text and kids because they had their smartphones taken away

during school because of these bands they can't even check it they're missing shifts or their parents shifts gets changed there's no ability for communication and those problems are never brought up like you know those things are never entering the discussion it's just like oh kids can't be sitting on class you know doing Instagram Reels or something it's like yeah no one wants that literally no one's advocating for that cell phones are integrated into our world in all of these different ways and so you need to take account of that if you're going to make smart policies.

Totally. And like the idea that the phone itself is the problem feels like wishful thinking. Like you can just will into existence a world that isn't reliant on smartphones. We can't just like press delete on like this moment in history and be like, yeah, everything's fine. Let's just like not have the smartphone.

Like no matter what you do, you're still going to live in the world that exists today. That is full of smartphones. It reminds me of when people say they're not political, And it's like, well, politics are still happening whether or not you're interested in politics. And like smartphones are still happening, whether or not you're interested in smartphones. And the internet and smartphones and everything has become like so intertwined with daily life, which I get it. Like I get people not liking that.

But I would say that like the response to that is to build better systems or to like, you know, advocate for better policies, not participate in a moral panic that is ultimately harming a lot of people. and is sort of reactionary. I think also a lot of smartphone panic is really just classic moral panic about media. You know, I always say this, but like if all of social media was replaced with Wikipedia articles,

and TikTok was just scrolling Wikipedia, you know, informative information, and that's all Twitter was. Would you still have a problem? No. Your anger and you're overwhelming, like your sort of frustration and the fact that you feel overwhelmed,

it's because of the world, it's because of the news you're getting about the world, and it's because of like the content online. online. And that doesn't mean that we should censor all of that content online so we just don't know about it and that we don't never hear about it. It means we should like address problems to build a better world where like they're not doing something evil every single day and like our government isn't like destroying people's lives at the rate that they currently are and stuff like that. Totally. And like if you choose to have a dumb phone and opt out, that's

totally fine. I just think it's the framing that as like the right thing to do or like the noble thing to do just feels a little bit off base to me. Yeah. And it's also just like these companies are not perfect and they are exploitative. Like I'm not trying to say like, oh, it's so great that people are all on Instagram and social media. Like I wish we had a less profit driven social media environment. I wish we had less surveillance. Like ironically, these phone bans and the political movement and sort of this broader child safety like movement, that is ironically the opposite. Like that's about mass surveillance and censorship, like, I think we deserve a lot more privacy and control over our data and, you know,

control over our online experience. Definitely. And the discomfort that people feel with phones is super valid in terms of surveillance from companies, from the government, from ICE. Like, it's really disturbing. And it makes sense that people don't want to carry something around with them, that they feel like makes them less safe, especially if you're vulnerable to persecution from the government. which, I mean, we all are, but some people are particularly vulnerable.

But yeah, I'm like, we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, there are things we can do. It's not black and white. Wired has a guide to protecting your data from hackers and corporations. And then we also have a guide to protecting yourself from government surveillance. So there are things you can do. Yeah. And I think also we can push for policies that will protect our data on a better scale.

Like we should be able to use our phones without being tracked. Like these are things that we should advocate for. Again, ironically, this like anti-smartphone sentiment and this moral panic about the smartphones, like that is tied to a political movement that is trying to do the opposite of all of that. And I think that's what's so insidious is like they're leveraging people's real discomfort and feelings about like the current moment that we're in and they're sort of just like exploiting that for profit usually or for political gain. And that sucks.

I also think like we're not becoming less enmeshed with technology. loved the way that you ended your piece in Wired where you said, I'm not addicted to my phone. I am my phone. And then you quote somebody else saying basically like it's consumed your brain almost where like part of you will vanish. And I think that's what was so good about your story is like you talked about sort of like phones as an extension of ourselves and our own brains. And that's kind of how I think of it too. And I think if we use it that way and look at them that way like it helps reframe our relationship. Like this is a tool that we can use for good. And can we use it in unhealthy ways for sure? But I love having my phone. I love.

being able to get information, you know, at the drop of a hat and look through old photos and message friends and connect with my family members and like feel connected to my family members. And like, there's a lot of really positive things that come with all of that. And we don't just want to go back to our world without it. Definitely. And like, I think using the framework of like, I am my phone helps really clarify that like there is no quick fix. And like, this is a part of our lives. This is going to remain a part of our lives.

And it's not really helpful to advocate for like phone bad, basically. I think also like when we think of agency, it's like about how we think about it. And I think we're sold this very negative view, again, as phones as addiction. And I was talking to this guy, Ian Anderson, who did this phenomenal study recently. He has a PhD at Caltech where they're doing a lot of research in this like lab that studies habits. And Ian, somebody that does for almost a decade studied habits and building habits. And they did the study where actually they found that framing phone use and social media use as addiction actually makes it

harder for you to change your habits. It makes it harder for you to moderate your own use because you almost feel powerless and you feel frustrated and you feel it's like this negative energy. And 99.9% of people are not addicted. Like there isn't really a phone addiction like that is not a real sort of concept. A lot of what people feel is just sort of overwhelmed or they feel like they, you know, they have this bad habit of maybe checking their phone and in unproductive ways. And I think it's really important to be like, what do I not like? Like what am I feeling overwhelmed by? Is it the Is it that I'm on too many group texts? Like is it that I have too many apps, too many notifications on?

Like really being like thoughtful and intentional about like, what is the actual thing that you're feeling? And not just like phone bad, internet bad, ban everything. That's the only way I can control myself is if like the government surveils me at all times. And really being like what is it? Or am I just like fighting with my friends a lot and I'm getting too many texts or I'm feeling like, you know, I'm having a hard week because of XYZ. Like I think thinking of it and thinking of these things as habits and not addictions. This is not addiction. These are not substance.

Like, this is a tool just the way that like so many tech products are and like you can have a more positive kind of like relationship with it by thinking of it that way. Totally. And like for me, it was Instagram. Like I deleted the Instagram app, blocked it from my phone's browser. So now I just use it when I'm on my computer, which has really enhanced my life in so many ways. I feel like that is really what I needed to change. I feel like, yeah, identifying the thing that you need to change for some people. It's totally. totally the news and maybe not having notifications, but instead like giving yourself an hour at the end of the day to like catch up on the news. I think like that's a way more reasonable thing to ask of people who are living in the world that we are all living in. Or just like only using social media to follow friends.

Like that's something that I've heard from a lot of people now where like they don't follow influencers, they don't follow brand accounts. Like they have these private accounts where they like literally only follow friends. And I think it like brings us back a little bit more to that earlier version. of social media when we did love the internet so much. And also just getting involved and like using your phone in a productive way, like, are you using it to construct something to make something on Canva that's funny that you're going to send or like an invite to something or whatever, like texting, you know, catching up with someone instead of just like passively consuming. I think also can be like helpful and make people feel more agency.

Definitely. And also deciding that like there are going to be certain things you do that are not going to involve your phone. Like when I hang out with friends, sometimes I leave my phone and my coat pop. or in my bag and it ends up being great. Other times I'm hanging out with people and like, we want to scroll through our camera rolls together and laugh at like old memories. And that's really fun too. Like, I feel like phones and like your personal archive can actually be a really fun tool for like hanging out and reminiscing with people. Yeah, we're playing games together, you know, like, I just think like there's so much more nuanced these topics.

And I know people are going to reflexively like see this video and I'm sure at this point they've probably tuned out, but or like, left a hate comment, but like, I do think that just there is this like intensity around the whole like dumb phone thing. And it is ultimately like this commercial enterprise in itself. And I'm so grateful for your coverage of all of it. Thank you so much again for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. All right. That's it for this week's episode. If you like the show, please, please support my work on Patreon via the link below or buy a paid subscription to my tech and online culture newsletter at usermag.com. That's user, mag.co. On my substack, I do biweekly roundups of everything that I'm reading and following online.

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