Taylor Lorenz’s Power User - MAGA's Epstein Crashout And What's Next w/ Will Sommer

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

After years of hype and promises to destroy the deep state, the Department of Justice and FBI publicly declared there is no “client list” linking Jeffrey Epstein to prominent figures, this week. They also confirmed Epstein died by suicide and said told all of MAGA basically to drop the issue. Now, MAGA influencers are accusing Trump of a cover up, the right wing internet is in disarray, and it remains unclear what will happen next. The Epstein cover up has been the defining conspiracy on the right linking MAGA factions together. Will Sommer is a reporter at The Bulwark who covers the right wing internet. He joined me to break down what's going on and what's next for the right. ***** Buy a subscription to my Tech and Online Culture newsletter, User Magazine to support my work!!!! 🙏 https://www.usermag.co ***** Subscribe to my newsletter: ⁠⁠https://www.usermag.co⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz3.0 https://www.tiktok.com/@taylorlorenzhttps://bsky.app/profile/taylorlorenz.bsky.social

This has been a real animating issue for the MAGA movement for the Trump administration. We got to release the Epstein client list. So all of a sudden, there's this flip where, you know, they're saying, oh, you know, sorry, Epstein has closed. And, you know, you've got to wonder. The Jeffrey Epstein saga undeniably represents a major failure of our justice system. But since the case broke years ago, it has generated an endless string of conspiracy theories, controversy, and public outrage.

It's also become one of the biggest animating topics on the MAGA right. But this week, the Department of Justice and FBI came out with a joint statement saying, there's actually no evidence that Epstein ever blackmailed powerful figures kept a client list or was even murdered. Obviously, this is causing a complete meltdown on the right. And to help make sense of it all, I have Will Sommer, a reporter for the bulwark who covers the right-wing internet. Will, welcome. Hey, thanks for having me. Okay, so I wanted to talk to you because I feel like you've been covering all of this Epstein drama.

And we've all been seeing Maga people meltdown and this chaos history. So just to back up a little bit, can you talk about what happened this week that was notable? Yes. So Jeffrey Epstein, obviously, the infamous human trafficker, very well connected. And so the question of how did he die in jail? How was he so well connected? Where did he get his money? And really, like, ultimately, like, who was he trafficking women towards who, you know, were these famous people he was friends with involved? And so this has been a real animating issue for the MAGA movement for the Trump administration. Just a few weeks ago, J.D. Van, was on Theo Vaughn's podcast saying,

we gotta release the Epstein client list. So this is really like they think Oprah, Tom Hanks, who knows? I have all these crazy ideas about who's gonna be on the list. So the idea is basically there's this like secret list and these like Epstein files that when they're released, everyone's gonna be implicated, the Deep State will be exposed. That's exactly right.

I mean, we know that Jeffrey Epstein was friends with a lot of powerful people, including Donald Trump and Bill Clinton. But the idea is that it's gonna go beyond that. I mean, this is sort of what in their wildest dreams, what they believe in that they there's this world cabal of people in finance and Hollywood in the Democratic Party who were abusing children and so they thought that this would be kind of this like really in a weird way satisfying moment if you're a Republican but instead on Sunday night after months of lead up to like we're gonna have these big

document explosions it's gonna be a bombshell the Department of Justice put out a memo weirdly through Axiote so they didn't even like really make a big show about it and they said look Jeffrey Epstein killed himself he wasn't blackmailing anyone and there's no client list and you know we're just going to close the case here. Okay, this seems so crazy because I feel like this is all we've heard about for years and it seems like such an anti-climactic finding, especially when we didn't we have Pam Bondi just like a couple months ago being promising to kind of like release everything? This is what is so crazy about it. The question of the client list. Now a lot of reporters who have covered Epstein say there isn't really like a client list per se,

but that there are documents that would point to you know clients or friends of his who were involved in abusing women. Nevertheless, in February, Pam Bondi said, she was asked, are you going to put out the client list? And she said, it's on my desk and I, and I will be releasing it under Trump's order. Right. So, I mean, what is this sudden, like, pivot about? Because I don't want to sound conspiratorial, but like, are they lying? There is a lot of, I mean, even if you try not to, you know, get into conspiracy theories and stuff, there's a lot of weird stuff about the Jeffrey Epstein case, you know, including his death. And so then suddenly, and you know, look, Elon Musk, just a few weeks ago, said, yeah, they're never going to put out the Epstein files because

Trump's in them. And, you know, not the most credible guy himself. But, you know, you look at this, then all of a sudden there's this flip where, you know, they're saying, oh, you know, sorry, FDK is closed. And, you know, you got to wonder. What were those binders full of that? What was the point of that publicity stunt if you were all, if you were just a couple months later, just going to say, actually, never mind it, none of this exists. This is so odd, right? I mean, this is the, this gets into what you cover, the kind of the social media, the clout aspect. So you have a bunch of influencers in late February, visit the White House to kind of do the rounds. media administration officials, people like Jack Bosobik, lives of TikTok, Mike Cernovich. And they go, and then suddenly Pam Bondi shows up, the attorney general, totally as a surprise to pretty much everyone at the White House with these binders that say, you know, Epstein files, phase one. And so these people think that they're getting the inside scoop on the Epstein investigation. And then they go outside and they pose for a photo op. And again, I mean, this is about sex trafficking teenage girls. And they're like, look, we got it. And then it turned out to all be, anyway, publicly available information already.

And so it seems as though Pam Bondi saw this case as like her chance to be a real star in the MAGA movement. And then she kind of blundered and blundered constantly. And so now it's over. What do you think this is going to do to the MAGA movement? Because it seems like there's a lot of fracturing and everybody's kind of infighting. Some people I've seen say like, it doesn't matter. We should listen to Trump. But I feel like a lot of other people are just like, this proves he's part of the deep state.

What's the sort of like the land and how are people reacting? Yeah. I mean, I think the anger is real. And I think it's rising, you know, we're talking here on Tuesday. I think we're a couple days later. They're kind of like, wait, where do we stand on this? They're figuring out where they stand. And the answer is, even real, like, Trump loyalists,

people like Benny Johnson are breaking with him and saying, you know, we're mad about this, that this is a cover-up. One of the women, Liz Wheeler, who received one of the binders, is saying, you know, this is going to be an electoral disaster. And I think, you know, we've had a lot of these, you know, how does Donald Trump wriggle his way out of this one kind of things. But, you know, this one I think is one that sticks in people's craw. I mean, I think it's not about like tariffs or whatever.

I mean, it's about like, you know, abusing children. And it's one that they have really been encouraged, including by people like Donald Trump Jr. or J.D. Vance to see as like a really big issue. And all of a sudden to say, no, no, never mind. We're closing the book. I mean, I think that could be a problem for them. How do you think reporters who have covered Epstein for years feel about this? Like, have any of them spoken out or tried to give context to any of kind of what Trump is doing? So I actually just spoke with Tara Palmeri, who's also on substack and YouTube earlier. And, you know, she, as of a week ago was saying, you know, I'm talking to law enforcement officials who say they're working on the cases.

They're looking to prosecute the men involved. And, you know, these are complicated cases. Obviously, we just saw Diddy skate on the most serious charges. And so it maybe takes a while. But her sense was that even a week ago that, like, this was not over and that there was interest in doing prosecutions. And then all of a sudden for it to, for them saying, oh, close the book. I mean, you wonder how much Elon bringing Trump into it and saying, you know, Trump's in the files, how much that, you know, prompted sort of a desire to close the case.

But when I talk to, yeah. Right. Because just a couple weeks ago, when Elon and Trump were in their little spot, he did bring up the Epstein files. Do you think that that was maybe a pivotal moment and led to this? I think it's very possible. I mean, I think you can imagine Trump saying, you know, I'm tired of this Epstein thing kind of dragging on. And now I'm getting mentioned, you know, when you think about, we know he's interfered with the Justice Department in the past. You know, they were trying to get Mel Gibson, his gun rights back and all these issues. And so when you think about it, I mean, something that small, you could imagine if it's like Trump, even in a glancing way, being mentioned in one or two files as, you know, being friends with Epstein at one point. I mean, you could see, I could imagine that there's some interference happening there.

Okay. So aside from kind of the law enforcement stuff which you're talking about, which seems like it's kind of barreling along, are the other Epstein reporters hearing anything on the ground or have you heard anything on the ground? In terms of like the reporting about like what's actually happening at the Justice Department, I think it's relatively spare. I would expect to start getting some answers soon. One thing I think is interesting here. I think Pam Bondi is really being set up the Attorney General as sort of the scapegoat here. You know, there are other people who would be involved in this like Cash Patel, the FBI director, Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director, who are themselves kind of like right-wing media figures

before they, they entered the FBI. But I think there's been kind of like those guys are seen as, you know, for lack of a better word-based by the audience. And Pam Bondi has, like, much less of that. You know, she's on Fox News constantly, but she's not really seen as, like, a true, like, Maga Warrior. She's being positioned, I think, to be the one who gets blamed here. Well, so I'm so interested in Pam Bondi,

because it seems like you're saying, like, she's going to be the fall girl for this. How did she end up in this position to begin with? So she was the Attorney General of Florida and is a sort of Republican operative official type, but not someone who is seen as, like, a hardcore Trump devotee, along the lines of like a Steve Bannon type,

someone who doesn't exist really outside of the Trump movement. You know, initially, of course, famously, Matt Gates was nominated to be the Attorney General. So she was the second choice there after his nomination imploded. But I think, you know, the reporting, particularly around the kind of the Epstein Binders debacle. And I think in terms of your audience and your podcast, what you cover, I mean, I think it's so interesting

because it shows that she was really recognizing, I think, correctly that these right-wing media influencers, these figures are people, that she has to court. And, you know, in the past, traditionally, the attorney general is not trying to court people for clout on, on X, or on YouTube, but in this case, you really have to. And so, you know, she gives them these binders, that implodes. I thought there was this other sort of fascinating incident that didn't get a lot of coverage, where James O'Keefe, the undercover video impresario, he's kind of rolling around D.C. with his crew these days. And he had someone, I think

he said was like a nanny, posing as a nanny targeting someone else, but they see Pantorne. Bondi at one of these she she she DC restaurants and she goes up with the undercover mic and she says hey Pam Bondi when are the Epstein files coming out this is in late April and Pam Bondi says well there's thousands of videos that Epstein had and so we have to review these and blah blah blah and then James O'Keefe says we're going to release these videos justice department do you want to comment and suddenly Pam Bondi goes out to the White House and she makes this statement publicly so she's like in this weird kind of thing where O'Keefe is kind of

pushing her because he catches her almost like boasting you know on camera so So there's this weird push and pull between these influencers and the administration. You mentioned Steve Bannon and I saw, I think it was Jacob Shamsen or someone today actually said that Steve Bannon himself might be implicated in some Epstein stuff. Yes. So there's a very interesting situation there where C. Bannon basically has claimed that he has a documentary. He has a lot of footage of Epstein and that's confirmed.

I believe Michael Wolf has reported on that. You know, there's this question of whether it was it a documentary. I think some people have argued that he was almost like doing like PR work for Epstein. and now is trying to, like, recast it as a documentary as like, I was just this neutral journalist observer. And so in that footage, I think, is supposed to be very illuminating in terms of Epstein talking about his past and his connections.

But Bannon has been in no rush to release it. Yeah, I don't know that it'll ever come out at this point if they're saying that basically, like, none of this exists don't look anymore. Well, I think this is kind of what drives people nuts about the Epstein thing, I think justifiably is, there seems to be a lot of information that's still out there, whether it's these videos, whether it's, it's,

FBI files. I mean, even going back to like the original, the whole thing with Jeffrey Epstein is this is a guy who the first time he was caught received this incredibly lenient plea deal. And then Trump, by the way, appointed the guy who gave him that plea deal to a cabinet position in the first administration. And so like, what was going on here? And there are, you don't have to be like really falling into QAnon or whatever to think that there's a lot that's unanswered. And I think that is, is, you know, what drives people nuts about it. There's also this like Israel aspect to it. And I feel like a lot of people have speculated like, oh, it's actually Israel and Netanyahu's coming to the White House. And that's also connected somehow. And Jeffrey

agent was maybe a, you know, an agent of Mossad or things like that. Like, how much credence do you give the Israel aspect of all of it? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I think, as you said, and the Justice Department almost makes a nod at this in the memo where they say Epstein was not blackmailing anyone. And so, so this is this idea that Epstein was either a CIA or a Mossad asset. or maybe both. And, you know, to be frank, I have not, like, studied the Epstein case, the ins and outs that closely. I think there is, a lot of that grows from not so much, like, visible evidence, but, like, a lot of weirdness around it. I mean, we know Robert Maxwell, Gleine Maxwell's father, Glein Maxwell being kind of Epstein's crony and buddy, that he was accused of being an Israeli

asset at various times. I mean, I'm not sure how much evidence there is of it, but there, I think a lot of this stuff just grows naturally from the lack of knowledge surrounding it, and the idea that like something weird was going on with this guy. I mean, beyond what we already know, the heinous crimes, and things that are, that are sort of unexplained. And so this idea that he was somehow an intelligence asset. I mean, even today, Pam Bondi was asked about this. And she said, oh, I don't know, we'll have to circle back on that. And it's like, could you have nailed that down before close it? What do you mean? You didn't. Yeah. You know, and the other thing we haven't talked about yet. I mean, is the fact that Trump was asked about this. And he comes out and says,

basically, I can't believe you guys are talking about Epstein still. Yeah, I saw that he was asked about it in the Oval Office or something, and it seemed like he crashed out. Can you kind of summarize what he said? Crash out is a good way to put it. Yeah. I mean, he said that someone said, well, you know, you closed the Epsine case two days ago, you know, and people say there are still unanswered questions. Is it really over? Whatever. And he said, you know, basically, how can you be talking about this amid the great triumphs of my administration and also this the tragedy with the flash flooding in Texas? And Jeffrey Epson, I can't believe people are still talking about this. I mean, it is, I don't know, it seemed like a pretty reasonable question. And I think when you tell people

really, you know, shut up, don't talk about this, get over it. 48 hours less than since the memo came out, I mean, that is going to be the kind of thing that really adds a lot of fuel to the idea that this is a cover up. I think anytime you tell people not to look at something or that, you know, not to talk about something on the internet, especially, it's going to make people want to talk about it. So it seems like it's just backfired, whatever they were trying to do. You know, even Republicans are saying, you know, Annapolina Luna in Congress, Marjorie Taylor Green, are saying, you know, this is something that is unanswered in a lot of

ways. Where does all of this leave Galane? Funny you say that. What about Galane? So she's in prison, you know, for decades, I think. And, you know, Republicans now are saying, well, wait a minute, why is she in prison? Or, you know, Tucker Carlson just has a new episode up now that says, you know, he jokes, but he says, you know, is she innocent? You know, should we be releasing Galane? And I think it's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, there are questions about a lot of the underage girls that were involved in the Epsine case were apparently really just involved, trafficked to Epstein himself and Galane and the idea that there were more powerful men that is often women who were of age, you know, and I don't think it's totally exclusive, but so it gets kind of

complex about like what she was involved and what she wasn't or like what qualifies as a client. But it is like a, I think it's an open question. And I think there, you know, again, there's a lot of unanswered questions here. And this administration's, I think, is trying to move on, but I think people overall are really not open to that. Yeah, it makes no sense. And I mean, there were some quote unquote clients or like wasn't, Andrew involved in some of this stuff?

Yeah, I mean, Prince Andrew was involved exactly. I mean, there are these various accusations. I mean, it's like, it's somewhat people are on the flight logs. And what does it mean to be on the plane versus, you know, the name of Lolita Express, you know, people are looking at this. And again, Republicans have really been promised that this is going to be explosive. People like Dan Von Gino have said, you know, the Clintons are all over this. And now suddenly, oh, we're just moving on. I think it just goes back to kind of like, even Trump's first term, where he sort of promised to

expose the deep state and expose this like, you know, system of elite power in D.C. And he was going to drain the swamp and all of that. But then the reality is, it's like, I mean, yeah, he appoints a lot of cranks and weirdos from outside the system. But he also sort of fundamentally upholds the same power structures that have always existed. And that's kind of what the Republican Party is built on. So I guess I'm wondering, like, how long can he skate by on this sort of like the deep state or there's, there's these, you know, bad people out there.

But Pizza Gate fell apart. Kewanon fell apart. now Epstein is falling apart. Like, what is the next thing that they can grasp on to? Is there anything left? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I do think so much of the animating, you know, there's been a faction in the Trump movement that's very animated by the idea of child abuse, this idea that, you know, not

just that we're not putting Donald Trump in office to put in tariffs or to cut taxes or Medicaid, but to actually like get this kind of like, like, God like revenge on these satanic things. And then when you say, oh, well, you know, never mind. You know, I think people, yeah, I think people are frustrated by that. And, you know, on one hand, you know, when you mention how long can he blame the Biden administration, we are seeing some, some people say on the right, you know, well, I assume the CIA or the FBI when it was run by Biden that they destroyed, you know, the incriminating files. Oh, I'm sure. So that's why Pam Bondi is saying, well, we can't find it, you know. But I think, I mean, it does seem like, like Republicans still are not really satisfied by this. Well, it seems like there's also these people like Marjorie Taylor Green or Tucker Carlson, these like figures on the Republican right that also seem willing to like break and criticize him a little bit more or like call attention as I mean going back to the Israel stuff too. Like call attention to his deference to Israel in certain ways or call like call him out a little bit more than maybe some others.

So I'm just wondering like if you think that they will play a role. Yeah, I mean, I think there a lot of these figures are really reliant on this the sense from their audience that they're authentic. And now some of them, I think, are very, like, they need Trump to be on their side or they need to be on Trump side. Like, someone like Sean Hannity, like, he's very secure. He just needs to pair it, whatever the line is. But someone like Tucker Carlson, he's out on his own now. Candice Owens is another great example. And I think a lot of this also tracks with the same people who are critical of the strikes on Iran.

And so these are people who are already, for various reasons, more critical of the administration. But we're also seeing even the people, the ones I've been watching are the people who got the binders. Because they are, they were kind of, you know, not to be too sympathetic. to this crowd, but they were kind of like roped into this scheme. Like, they thought they were really getting something, and then they do this photo op, and then it blows up in their faces. Have you talked to any of them? I haven't, but I mean, you know, you see the videos,

you see people like, as I mentioned, Liz Wheeler, saying, you know, like, we kind of got hosed here. And so I think that's interesting, because they kind of fall about sort of the midline in terms of, like, loyalty to the administration. But, you know, again, I mean, in this world where so much is determined, you know, on the right as it is in the broader media, by, like, your own personal audience. I think we're seeing more people seek independence and say, you know, if I follow my sword here and just say, you know, move on people like Trump would like me to.

What is that going to do to my audience? What's that going to do to my bottom line? Assuming the Epstein stuff does die down a little bit, what other kind of movements or conspiracy theories are you seeing on the Reich? I feel like you follow so much of these brain-rotted narratives that they're pushing. What new ones are emerging? Yeah, I mean, the one that's really top of mind right now, I think after the flash flood in Texas is I think we're seeing the idea. of like weather control and chem trails, which of course, the lines after planes. I think that's gaining a lot more like respectability on the right.

I think like if we think about where vaccines were or anti-vax stuff pre-COVID, where people saw that as much more like even on the right that was that was seen as like too far often, but that became much more of a mainstream topic criticizing vaccines. Now I think we're at the point where I think as climate change effects become more severe. And I think there's just going to be a lot more adoption of talk about. like weather control. We've seen it, Marjorie Taylor Green has a bill now in the aftermath of these deaths, like banning, you know, weather control. I think that's going to start really like taking off. Yeah, I noticed so much of it. And I think actually a guy vandalized some weather radar also in Kansas,

potentially over some of this stuff. So it seems like it's already having real world effects. I think I may be familiar with this crew. Yes, the veterans on patrol have been, you know, they're staking out all these, this radar. I mean, you know, where you are in California, I mean, famously, whenever there's one of these wildfires or in Maui, and they say it was a directed energy weapon, it was a satellite. But even that stuff has been relatively on the fringe. But I think this is really providing an impetus for it to get talked about more. I think it's becoming so much more mainstream. And I think you're so correct that also climate change is just going to accelerate these conspiracy theories because we're seeing so many more wildfires and just natural events.

And it seems inexplicable to people that don't believe in climate change, I guess. Exactly. I mean, so many of these conspiracy theories are ways to sort of avoid dealing with reality. So if we look at like the quote unquote stolen election in 2020, you might say, you know, oh well, maybe Donald Trump was as popular as I thought. Maybe maybe the country is rejecting what I believe in. And instead you can say, oh my gosh, the election was stolen. In this case, you know, I think someone facing reality would say, you know, looking at some of these weather incidents, you know, perhaps I have, I was wrong about global warming and now we're suffering for it. But that's a tough thing to deal with. And so instead you say, you know, you know, know, look at the scorch marks. You can see it came from a laser or cloud seeding or something like that. Yeah, the cloud seeding thing is interesting because I saw the CEO of a company called Rainmaker, which actually does do cloud seeding responding to this. Can you explain what cloud seeding is? So cloud seeding is a real thing. And so it involves sort of putting something into the clouds, chemicals that make rain more likely. And the Rainmaker is a company that is a startup that does cloud seeding. The founder is also a Peter Thiel Fellow. So there's a connection there.

And, you know, unfortunately for them, I mean, they claim they were not responsible for this flash flood in Texas. Obviously, there were floods there before. My sense is that there's not like a ton of evidence that they were involved. On the other hand, they were seating the clouds like two days beforehand. Again, I don't think there's like a liability that's been demonstrated. But, but, you know, it doesn't take a lot of evidence for people on the right to like jump on these conspiracy theories. Yeah. Well, they also have no understanding of how science works.

And I saw the CEO trying to explain to people like, listen, cloud seeding doesn't mean we can manufacture. lecture clouds. Also, like, the maximum, maximum amount of rain that we could sort of like squeeze from a cloud extra would be 20% more rain. So like a flash flood like this, like there's just no way to like even scientifically, I guess, do it through cloud seeding. But it is one of those things like you said where it's this coincidental. All you need is the kernel of truth, right? And then people who often maybe didn't even know about cloud seeding or like, well, how often is this happening? Where is this happening? And so it sort of snowballs. I think that this cloud seeding debate or these allegations represent kind of an interesting split on the right between what we think of as like the tech right, like the AI people, the Palantir people who want like more surveillance, the singularity, whatever, versus sort of a more of a maha, make America healthy again, RFK Jr. faction that's like you're messing with the weather patterns. You know, it's stuff that obviously, you know, they want to go back to the land or whatever. And that that is exactly what they're not going to like. Well, it reminds me of just the viral clip of Peter Thiel as well from that New York Times interview, where he's talking about, like, he doesn't know if he believes in humanity and people aren't trans enough, that, like, he wants to essentially people to be able to sort of like replace and mutate any part of their body. And I thought I just saw a lot of sort of, like he said, more of these traditionalist influencers being like, this is why he's Satan.

You know, he doesn't even believe in humanity. So another example of this, this kind of suspicion of tech in the Trump administration, you know, it involves a surgeon. general nominee Casey Means. She's RFK allied, so you think it would be kind of this more crunchy type of thing, but she also co-founded like a wearable tech company, like a Fitbit type situation. Hers is a glucose monitor. And so there's now this big push. RFK Jr. says, I want everyone wear, every American wearing one within four years, wearing a fitness wearable. And so on one hand, you know, I guess for more tech-aligned people like a lot of his lieutenants,

that's great. And they're going to spend tens of millions of dollars in HHS, this is official, to like make wearables cool is their language. On the other hand, you know, these kind of crunchier, more anti-vaccine people in that, in that world say, like, what? You know, you want the government is going to give me like a GPS tracker? Also, I feel like those people are the ones that are concerned about EMFs, and they don't even want people wearing Apple watches, right? Exactly.

And so suddenly R.Ks say, no, actually everyone is going to have one, and the government's going to be pushing it. And then, you know, there are a lot of these business interests involved in, in both Casey and Kali means her brother who are surrounding RFK. And so, you know, there is interesting splits that. are emerging. Where do you see J.D. Vance in all of this? Because I feel like, you know, as there's a lot of people online that are saying, like, he's ascendant or like, how does he kind of navigate these splits? Yeah, I mean, it's a challenging situation, right? I mean, he, I think like any other politician

lacks Trump's ability to just say, you know, it's my way or the highway. I'm saying this is the new line and that's what we're going to do. I think that's what's interesting about the Epsine stuff is we're getting an unusual level of dissension. For J.D. Vance, you know, he's trying to be this new generation. I think there's been so much interesting writing about the new right, which is essentially like a quasi-fascist movement of which J.D. Vance is the head. You know, he's trying to break from the old kind of like the old ways of Republicans. And yet he is really, he obviously can't criticize the administration. And so you end up in these situations where he's, you know, supposed to be anti-war, anti-involvement in the Middle East. And yet he ends up, you know,

he's tied to these strikes in Iran because of Trump. Or as I mentioned, just a few weeks ago, he was saying, you know, yeah, we got to get these Epstein files out. That's fascinating because it's like, well, you're the vice president, man. You know, like if only someone could do something about it. The literal vice president. That's why it seems like the obscene stuff must have come directly from Trump because I feel like every single other person around Trump has been hyping this. And it's really quite sudden that all of them would just do this 180.

And why not let it, I mean, if you put yourself in their shoes and perhaps it's, you know, I think the milder version would be, well, maybe we were overpromised on this. I mean, certainly the argument they make in the memo is, you know, well, there's no evidence really to charge anyone. else and the only material we have is, you know, is abuse stuff. And so we can't release that, understandably. And so that's it. But I think why not let it peter out?

Why not, you know, maybe put out some boring releases of what they did have that they could release? But instead, they're just saying case closed. And then, you know, I think again, what really adds the fuel here is Trump saying, you know, move on. I don't want to talk about it. Well, speaking of just the MAGA world and, you know, some of these influencers, I want to talk about Candace Owens because you've been doing some reporting on her lately. So this is an interesting circumstance.

I mean, Candace Owens really is sort of a such a unique figure, and yet, I think, also, like, very characteristic of, like, what it takes to succeed on the right these days in right-wing media, and someone who's learned a lot of lessons, I think, from broader social media. I mean, she was, you know, she came up, like, through Gamergate, was that Ben Shapiro's Operation the Daily Wire, broke off with him over Israel. And now, what's on my mind, I guess, is she's been, she's been really doing this thing where you, like, package, YouTube, like, long YouTube videos, the classic YouTube documentary. And so in this case, she's been on this crazy conspiracy theory that the French president,

Macron's wife is trans. And you might say, well, who cares? You know, I'll tell you what, it's not true. But like, she kind of ties it into like a cabal, you know, classic, it really gets into like classic QAnon, like sinister. Well, that's what I mean. It sounds like that's kind of like the new deep state, like there's this secrets, trans cult running this world leader.

Exactly. I mean, it goes back to the middle ages. I mean, it's really crazy stuff that she gets into. But what I think is interesting here is that last week, she said, I can now reveal that Don Donald Trump called me and asked me to stop talking about McCrone's wife and claimed that McCrone had said to him, Candace Owens needs to cut it out, and that, you know, now Trump says, McCrone's holding up the Ukraine peace process because of this. Well, let's set the Ukraine stuff aside.

I don't think Candace Owens would just totally make a call with Trump up out of whole cloth. But I said, you know what? I'll ask the White House. And I figured they would say, at least on background or whatever, this is a total lie. And they said, hey, we're not going to comment on Trump's private conversation. Now, that was odd to me. So are we in a world where Candace Owens is able to, with these totally nonsense conspiracy theories, and I'll tell you, I've watched many hours of this series, it's awful.

And we know the French president has sent her legal letters before saying cease and desist, so he's aware of it. In a world that Donald Trump is taking time out of his schedule to, like, chase these little conspiracy theories around? Apparently so. And I feel like that tells us something about the age we live in. Yeah, well, I also think it says something about people's desire, like the MAG of movement's desire to continually believe that there's this like secretive cabal, right? Like, or this secret world that Epstein, the Q&on, the Clintons, like Macron, all of these people are kind of involved with.

And you have to kind of go to increasingly like extreme levels to justify it. Like you said, like going back to the Middle Ages or claim it, you know, like it just the claims get increasingly, I guess, like deranged. I mean, it's proved incredibly popular. Like I hear from people regularly who started to listen to Candace Owens for her pop culture commentary or her commentary on Diddy or Blake Lively. And now they are quite convinced that, you know, this conspiracy theory has legs. That kind of the celebrity gossip

to QAnon or Cabal or whatever pipeline that is so fascinating. But yeah, I mean, it is, it's just very interesting how much she and kind of people like her on that kind of like women's gossip issues slash politics and now and conspiracy theories have kind of become its own genre. And I mean, there's been so much discussion

of like the men are being radicalized and we need to de-radicalize the men or, you know, the manosphere or whatever. And some people have started to talk a little bit more about like the women's version of this. But I see so many of these movements coming from women. Like the Pizza Gate stuff was, I mean, it was a lot of like women. QAnon was very female driven, right? Like, I mean, people like Marjorie Taylor Green and some of these other figures. Like, it just feels like a lot of the biggest conspiracies are tied in with celebrity culture. They're tied in with pop culture. And they appeal to this, like, I don't know, like, 45-year-old housewife or something that kind of like dips in and probably watches too much YouTube and gets their news from Reddit.

Yeah, I mean, and look, I mean, that takes it right back to the Epstein stuff, right? I mean, I think that's also, like, part of what is so compelling about this stuff is it's celebrities, it's people you know, and that's why when it's, you know, some random, you know, person, you know, James O'Keefe released Jeffrey Epstein's speed dial list. And everyone's like, oh, my gosh, what's it going to be? And then it was just like, his assistant, you know, who cares? But, I mean, the real energy behind this is this idea that, like, it's, you know, it's, it's very potent because it's going to be all these figures en masse that we know.

And so I think that's, again, you know, I think that's going to be, it's a very, I think, viral ready story that I think the administration is going to have trouble stopping. Will, thank you so much for joining me today. By the way, where can people continue to follow your work? Yes, I'm on X, on, you know, blue sky at Will's summer. I'm on at the bulwark.com. I send out a newsletter twice a week called False Flag about all these topics. It's so good.

Thank you. Thank you. And of course, I'm on the bulletwork YouTube as well. Awesome. Thanks so much. All right. That's it for the show. don't forget to subscribe to my tech and online culture newsletter, usermag.com.

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