Taylor Lorenz’s Power User - Meet the zoomers aiding Musk’s government takeover

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Over the past week, Elon Musk has been engaged in a near wholesale takeover of key areas of the U.S. federal government.  Working under the newly minted "Department of Government Efficiency" aka DOGE, Musk and a group of young Gen Z loyalists have begun wreaking havoc on our institutions.  Online culture journalist Ryan Broderick joins Taylor to break down who exactly these young men are, what their backgrounds say about the people Musk is hiring, and what the billionaire is currently doing to the U.S. government. SUBSCRIBE TO POWER USER ON YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/taylorlorenz SUBSCRIBE TO USER MAG, Taylor's tech and online culture newsletter: https://www.usermag.co

We allowed them to create essentially like weird pseudo religions that they all believe in and effectively groomed generations of young men to fall on their footsteps. And now they're all invading Washington. Over the past week, Elon Musk has been engaged in a near wholesale takeover of key areas of the U.S. government. Working under the newly minted Department of Government Efficiency or Doge, Musk and a team of young loyalists have been wreaking havoc on our institutions. Last weekend, they gained access to highly sensitive government databases containing the social security numbers, history and more information on members of the American public. Musk and his crew have also gained access to the U.S. Treasury's payment systems. On Monday, staffers for the U.S. Agency of International Development or U.S.Aid were completely shut

out of their offices and email accounts. All U.S. aid systems and operations were halted, jeopardizing the safety of staffers around the world. This takeover is being led by Musk, but he's recruited a group of broccoli-haired zoomers with little-to-no-government experience to help enact his plan. These 19 to 25-year-olds are suddenly playing critical roles. in Musk's Department of Government Efficiency. And though these young men are now federal servants,

Musk has gone to great lengths to hide their identities. He has falsely claimed that naming them is illegal, and on Monday, he began banning accounts that tweeted about them, calling it doxing. Doxing used to mean publishing somebody's private information, like their social security number or their home address. And to be clear, I still think that's very wrong. But now, conservatives are trying to claim that it means

simply naming public servants. I think that revealing the identities of the Gen Z men, who are now playing a crucial role in our federal government is very much in the public interest. These are teenagers in some cases who have been given an extreme amount of power and authority over our federal institutions nearly overnight with absolutely no public vetting. They are at the center of a government takeover working at the behest of a powerful, unelected billionaire.

We should know their names. To break down who these men are and what exactly Elon Musk is doing to the United States government, I brought in online culture reporter Ryan Broderick. Ryan has been covering all this and more on his newsletter Garbage Day. Ryan, welcome to Power User. Hi, thanks for having me. So I want to talk about this group of young men who's carrying out Elon's marching orders through Doge. You wrote recently that this team of former iPad babies and insoles have not only compromised the OPM and GSA,

reportedly hooking up an illegal server to access federal employment databases, but they're currently blocking staffer access to U.S. aid, and over the weekend, they successfully infiltrated the U.S. Treasury's payment system. Why do you think it's important for us to know who these people are? Simply, they're working for Elon Musk. Elon Musk is trying to carry out a bunch of illegal maneuvers. They're aiding and abetting. He is not someone who cares deeply or thinks deeply about any of this stuff. He is assigning former interns of his to these things.

And based on what I've read, is that a lot of the times they're just appearing on Zoom calls without even explaining who they are or what they're doing. These are not experts in anything. These are children. They are definitely young adults, I think, that have an enormous amount of power. and ultimately they're unelected and playing a pretty crucial role in government. Yeah, I mean, the youngest one is 19. I think the oldest one is 24.

All right. So let's meet some of these young gentlemen. To start off, we have Edward Coristine. He is a 19-year-old former camp counselor who also recently graduated from Northeastern University. He interned at Neurrelink, and he's currently working in some capacity, both at the OPM and General Services Administration. Ryan, you also reported that this guy had an interesting nickname. Did you find out anything about his background?

Yeah, so his nickname online is Big Balls. From what I've read, he's a volunteer. This one seems to be the most nebulous of all of them. Like, no one's really sure what he's doing, but he's around. Yeah, he seems kind of nebulous. I think he has an interesting internet presence. He was tweeting under a handle that had a giant like humpy, dumpy egg that also appeared to maybe be Mark Andreson. He's also potentially part Canadian.

His father is a Canadian businessman who left his Wall Street job to buy the snack company Lesser Evil, which now has $103 million revenue. So he's kind of a rich kid. We don't really know what this guy has done. Wired reported that he was appearing on calls where workers were made to go over code that they had written to justify their jobs. And he was added to another GSA staff call, basically just using his Gmail address. So no one was given any explanation, but this random 19-year-old is just appearing on government calls now. So next we have Akash Boba, a 22-year-old. He interned at Meta and Palantir. He attended UC Berkeley,

where he was in a kind of prestigious management, entrepreneurship, and technology program. According to his LinkedIn, which has now been deleted, he was an engineering intern at Bridgewater Associates Hedge Fund as of last spring. And he was a featured guest on a since-deleted podcast, which was hosted by another Gen Z engineer, and they basically talked about how they landed their dream jobs. I think it's kind of funny because this guy has been. sucked up into Indian internet and already there's a bunch of weird SEO like Economic Times articles about him and it's like, meet the young Indian that's like disrupting the U.S. government.

He's very interesting because Peter Thiel's fingerprints are all over that. And I think a lot of the soup that these guys come from is that kind of like young Silicon Valley defense contractor reactionary, you know, corner of society. Like all of these guys have meta and Palantir in their LinkedIn's in some capacity. A bunch of his classmates were. tweeting positively about him, though. One former classmate said, let me tell you something about Akash. During a project at Berkeley, I accidentally deleted our entire code base two days before deadline. I panicked. Akash just stared at the screen, shrugged, and rewrote everything from scratch

in one night better than before. We submitted it early and got first in class. Many such stories. I trust him with everything I own. Both Boba and Koresen are listed in internal government records as experts, and they report directly to Amanda Scales, OPM's new chief of staff. Moving on, we have Gavin Cleger. I might be mispronouncing all of these people's names, by the way. This is a 25-year-old who also attended UC Berkeley. Most recently, according to his LinkedIn, he worked for an AI company called Databricks. He was a software engineer at Twitter before Elon Musk took over. And, of course, he has a substack. I don't know, Ryan, if you had a chance to review it at all. Yeah, there's like two posts and they look like they were both

written by AI. His major outlet online seems to be Twitter where he was a big fan of sharing posts from Nick Fuentes, the far-right influencer, among other nasty kind of Trumpian people. So if there's any question of like where these guys align politically, there shouldn't be. Yeah, this guy seems sort of overtly to promote pretty far right-wing extremists. I mean, Nick Fuentes is almost as far as you can get. His posts also seem pretty conspiratorial. He wrote The Curious Case of Matt Gates. how the deep state destroys its enemies, as well as another one titled Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense, the Warrior Washington Fears. He, of course, has no previous government experience. And when all of this came out and his name was leaked by Wired, he published another substack post

for, I think it was a $10,000 annual paywall titled Y Doge. And somebody on Reddit, I guess, paid or got around the paywall. And it's just a blank post. So he's trolling people. I mean, that's pretty funny. That's pretty good, actually. I support that. Also, you know, in addition to his boosting of Nick Fuentes, Gryper content, Travis Brown, investigative journalist on Blue Sky, posted that Gavin has also been responding to literal Nazis, like open white supremacist, fascist Nazis. So his online footprint is kind of controversial. Next, we have Ethan Chow Tran, a 23-year-old. He was recently profiled actually by Business Insider back in September, talking about how

He was a senior at Harvard studying computer science and the founder of an open AI-backed startup called Energize AI. I think it's really funny that this kid already has one of these like BI hustle articles. I don't know if you saw it, Ryan, but the headline is, I'm a Harvard senior who balances college and my open AI backed startup through these three productivity tips. One is time blocks. One is using an AI note taker. And the third is planned distractions, which I didn't really understand, but it's basically

going to the gym in the evening. Oh, sure. Yeah. Of course. He's definitely in the like Musk Altman world. He was the runner up at a hackathon held by X AI, Elon Musk's AI company. He received a $100,000 grant from OpenAI to build his scheduling assistant, Spark. And he's also written books, which I cannot tell if or where these were ever published,

but they're available on Amazon. Stock prediction with deep learning. It was his most recent book. And stories from 2045, artificial intelligence and the future of work. He also built, I would say he doesn't have any government experience. but he did work on building ballot proof, which is a ballot security system that takes input images of the front and back sides of your ballot and uses image analysis to determine which errors prevent your critical vote from being counted. I can't wait to have to use that in a couple of years to vote before they disqualify all of our votes. That'll be very fun.

Next we have Gautier, Cole Killian. He is a 24-year-old. He's mostly known online as Cole Killian, and he has a working email associated with Doge, where he's also. currently listed as a volunteer. According to his now deleted resume, he graduated high school in 2019 and attended McGill at least through 2021. His website indicates that he worked as an engineer at jump trading, which specializes in algorithmic and high frequency financial trades. His former website lists his interest as utilitarianism, effective altruism, rationalism, closed individualism, absurdism, pyronian skepticism, meta-rationalism, empty individualism.

Yeah, no, those are my interest as well. That's what my Tinder account looks like, actually. Can you explain a factor of altruism? Yeah, very simply, it's the idea that you can use an equation to solve for the maximum human happiness. So you can apply engineering and mathematics and economic principles to create the most amount of happiness for the world possible. And a lot of a factor altruists are like, yeah, we should just like invest in mosquito nets. But then a lot of them like San Bigger-Frieder, like, no, we should make a stupid cryptocurrency and use that to give everybody money in the form of UBI.

That's the major sort of tenant of the philosophy. Moving on, we have Luke Ferritur. He is a 23-year-old T.L. Fellow and former SpaceX intern. According to his LinkedIn, he dropped out of the University of Nebraska. While he was in school, he was part of this award-winning team that deciphered portions of an ancient Greek scroll and won them actually $700,000, which he received a part of. He also has a working GSA email address. They're all definitely one degree of separation away from each other.

The final one, which was revealed kind of after the initial six, we have Marco L's, a 25-year-old engineer who previously worked for two of Musk's companies, and he graduated from Rutgers in 2021. He worked for SpaceX for a little focused on satellite software, then moved on to working at X, where he's worked on SearchA. and he has now direct access to the Treasury Department systems responsible for nearly all payments made by the U.S. government. He has admin privileges over the code that controls Social Security payments, tax returns, and more. These systems have processed $4.7 trillion dollars of payments in last year alone.

And people are really worried that these admin privileges could allow him to bypass really crucial security measures and cause irreversible damage to these systems. Yes, that is the major question with all of this, which is like, how, much should we be freaking out about this? Because I've heard, yes, some of them have admin access, and they've hooked up an illegal server, which is a security risk. I've also read arguments saying that a lot of what they're doing is the equivalent of like deleting a spreadsheet column and assuming that the money there goes with it, which is not true. I think also Elon Musk wants us to freak out and assume that he's accomplishing things when we know that he's incapable of accomplishing anything. And I want to kind of talk about this, because once these kids' identities were

revealed. There was so much backlash online and people were really quick to attack them. Obviously, Elon Musk was deleting anybody that posted about them. But I guess I'm wondering, like, how harmful is it? Because I mean, is it not a good thing just to play devil's advocate to have a bunch of young entrepreneurial smart kids coming in and kind of disrupting the government? And I mean, yeah, they're in their early 20s. But Lena Khan was, I think, only 29 or 30 when she was appointed. And, you know, it's not to say that young people can't achieve great things in the government, right? Ironically enough, in the beginning years of the Kennedy administration, there was like a push for like young American technocrats to come to D.C. and like modernize the government.

I read this great piece here's about how a lot of the blueprint for NASA started with the post office where like in the 1800s, they were like building rockets to shoot mail across the country. Like there's always been moments where like the government is a place where like it excites young Americans and they want to go work there. That's not what this is. The problem with the way this is working is that like the personnel management system OPM that they're they've sort of worked their way into and the general services administration that they've worked their way into and the treasury that they've worked their way into manage trillions of dollars for you know hundreds of thousands of government employees and contractors and if those systems get screwed up I mean that means the difference between like

my retired parents like getting their social security payment that's why Elon Musk is targeting these services the question is like is any is he going to do anything to them we don't know yet yeah I think that a lot this harm is potentially, you know, hypothetical. But then you have the situation with USAID, which one of these Zoomers actually sent an email to a bunch of USAID employees in D.C. saying, don't come to work on Monday. A lot of them have lost access to their email already. And I know he said that he wants to shut it down. It's not clear if that's legal. So I guess isn't he already sort of causing some harm? The way he's found his way in here is by setting up a temporary organization, Doge, inside of essentially like the digital services department of the government.

And he's attacking the digital services of the other departments that he doesn't like. So he's working with OPM via Amanda Scales, who is a former employee of his, and she's running OPM and sort of taking control of the different services and the personnel level. So that's where you're getting, you know, the requirements to take the pronouns out of your bio and the not buyouts that are being sent out to employees. They're messing with the HR apartment that way. So he's messing with the digital sort of services of all of these government agencies and the HR services of these government agencies? Right.

Like he wasn't really involved with the CDC fiasco last week, but he wasn't not involved either. And like, let's say the CDC website went down. That doesn't mean the CDC is over. But he's deleted tons of really essential information off the website, data sets that scientists rely on. Like, you know, people are unable to get grants because of this. So isn't that sort of harm in itself? You're right. He doesn't seem to have the unilateral power, right, to shut down these government agencies completely.

But he still seems to be wreaking havoc. He's absolutely wreaking havoc. And I'm not downplaying that. But I do think it's important, especially because we're in Trump world now. So like he is not the only player here. He has rivals in the other factions that are taking over the government right now. Project 2025 and him are not aligned. He is working alongside Russ Vot, the co-author.

project 2025, but he is trying to make sure that Doge looks like it's doing things. He has no ability to tell USA workers not to show up to their office. It would be like if the IT guy in your office was like, no one can come to work anymore. He can send that email and cause that chaos, but he can't actually make you not go to work. But if that IT guy has disabled your employee badge and your email and has the support of the head of the company, it's kind of hard to say no. Well, but our government also like has different branches. And I think this is what's been really frustrating me since all of this chaos started, which is that like, we are not in a monarchy. Okay, like I was reading headlines today about like, Donald Trump's going to get rid of the Department of Education. So I was like,

okay, is that even possible? And I spent a couple, like, I spent like about an hour looking into it. No, an executive order cannot get rid of the Department of Education. You can just say no. Like you can be like, no, USA does exist. Well, isn't that more of a messaging problem than from Democrats because I think, first of all, I really think it's important not to downplay the level of chaos that this man has caused already in the government. Like, I get what you're saying. He can't unilaterally shut down the CDC, but the harm that he's caused is irreparable and will take years to untangle. If we're talking about specifics to what he's done to USAID, yeah, he is disabled the security app that USAID workers use. Terrible. He has gunked up how the HR system

works. I think it is just very important to be very specific that Elon Musk and his team of Gen Z sociopaths can only impact digital services. And they are turning that around to Trump supporters and trying to make them believe that they have deleted USAID. But those digital services are also quite essential to operationally sort of functioning governments. And it is, but you're right, sure. They cannot just delete an entire government agency. So Ryan, can you talk about like what they have caused harm to? Because I think you've said, you know, it's important to make this distinction between what Elon Musk and his little crony, Gen Z cronies have been able to do and what they're unable to do theoretically under the sort of current laws. Is there any effort to stop his influence or to

sort of control the reach of Doge? No. It started today. Maxwell Frost, a Democrat, is holding a rally, I think as we're recording this, there are at the Treasury Department. Elizabeth Warren is getting out there and calling this a coup. And it is. And one of the biggest risks right now is time. The more that they can worm their way into these systems and the more that they can confuse people, even if what they're saying is totally illegal and they have no jurisdiction to do it, if employees in the government don't know or just following it, then yeah, That's the problem. The major thing here, we saw this with the videos in South Korea during their coup. Like, you have a brief moment to hold the legality of this thing together. And if you don't, you're screwed.

And so Democrats are finally beginning to move on this, but it's taking them about a week and a half. I think you also wrote recently about the different sort of warring factions within the Trump world. Can you talk about the kind of three different groups at play here and how they're at odds with each other? Yeah. So I pulled this from Ben Collins. former NBC News reporter, current CEO of The Onion. I have to say that whole thing because citing him as the Onion CEO kind of like diminishes it a bit, I think. But I love you, Ben.

And he was really smart to point this out, which is that Trump world is a reality show. Even as frightening and as quickly efficient as it's become, it is a reality show full of different factions and palace intrigue. And so right now we have effectively Stephen Miller looking over immigration. He's the one that is absolutely pushing for Guantanamo Bay to become a concentration. camp and the ice raids. And that's been his thing for like 10 years now. The second faction would be Russ Vought, the co-author of Project 2025. I would call these guys like the demagogues, the like true blood and soil white nationalists. And they have been planning the project 2025 takeover for years.

And they're very ideological. And they're across the gamut. Like if these guys succeed, we're in Handmaid's Tale. And right now, these guys are focusing on the office of management and budget. And they're trying to do that as step one to effectively render Congress useless. They want to sort of pull as much power away from the other branches, put it to Trump. And that way, when people start complaining that Elon Musk is breaking the law, there's no one that can do anything, right? And then faction three would be Elon Musk and Doge. And they, I think, are the honestly the one to worry about the least because they have no political anything. Like none of them have been endorsed, none of them have been nominated or voted for. And they're not even working within the government.

They are effectively contractors working under a subgroup of a subgroup. And I'm much more frightened by the Project 2025 guys and Stephen Miller because they are already succeeding. I saw this headline today talking about how one of Musk's allies had told staff that the future of the government is AI first and how they need to sort of operate the government like a software company. Is it this like monarchy like network state? Are they trying to run the business like an AI startup? Like what do they sort of hope to achieve? Part of me thinks the AI thing is like his weird beef with Sam Altman and he's just trying to like. like get one step ahead of open AI because he hates them.

But I will say it does reflect an urge in Silicon Valley to create an AI powered network state. And they believe that China already is this. And they believe that they're in an arms race to create a nation level AI. I also think quite selfishly, Elon Musk wants to power the whole government via X. He wants to replace the dollar with crypto and have the crypto run through. ex-wallets and he wants to have xAI working uh you know on whatever and that is to me what his role really is is that he is trying to slash and destroy and dismantle as many government digital services as possible and then replace them with his own uh bad version it's kind of funny

because i feel like a lot of the government used to run on twitter ironically before elan took it over like all of the government agencies had accounts that's kind of how you used to get a bunch of really crucial like government updates and stuff. And it was Elon Musk's takeover and the verification stuff that made a lot of them leave, right? That's absolutely correct. Because he wanted to own it. He didn't want them to use it. He wants to own them. He wants control. And this is like this is what he's been doing forever. Like he wants to replace NASA with SpaceX and he wants to replace public transportation with Tesla. And he wants to replace the government email lists serves with X. I just feel like he is so fundamentally annoying.

I can't imagine this going on for four years. Like, do you see any world where, like, he ultimately just like, yeah, pisses off the wrong project 2025 person? Trump gets tired of him stealing all the headlines. Like, how long do you think this reign of Musk is going to last? Or do you think his like political power will be neutered in any way? So far, the legal response to all of the Trump administration has been pretty good. Like, you have to, you have to sort of reflect.

on the fact that like America is like a pretty healthy legal institution. And even if our Supreme Court's mega conservative, like we have these branches. They work pretty well. And like we survived sort of survived the first Trump administration. And right now like most of the major executive orders that Trump's passing are being blocked. And it makes me fairly optimistic about the longevity of Doge because they are legit breaking the law. Like they just are. So and those laws still exist for now. Where do you think these zoomers that are working within Doge go? Do you think that they will ultimately be absorbed into the Trump government. Are most of them just LARPing, getting another line item on their resume?

And they'll just go back into like Silicon Valley world. I think they will just go back. Yeah, I really what we're sort of seeing in the last month or two is this culture in Silicon Valley that we did nothing to stop. We didn't break up these monopolies. We allowed them to create essentially like weird pseudo religions that they all believe in and effectively groomed generations of young men to fall on their footsteps. And now they're all invading Washington.

That's where these kids come from and that's where these kids go back. And we can't do anything about that for at least eight years, let's say. We have to really overhaul the government and regulate those companies and get back on track to break that culture. But unfortunately, those ghouls are going to be with us for a long time. What do you think Mark Zuckerberg and the other tech CEOs sort of feel about this? Do you see any of them trying to assert any influence over Doge or whatever? I mean, I feel like Musk has been able to so successfully warm his way into power in this administration in a way that the other CEOs have not. I sort of see Mark Zuckerberg as like not an idiot.

I have to imagine that most of the people of like his worlds are looking at Elon Musk as like a carnival barker insane person. To me, it reeks of like being a sideshow because I don't think any reasonable person at that even like at the highest levels of Silicon Valley can like look at X and be like, that's good. Like I don't think Mark Zuckerberg would want Facebook to run like X. I don't think so. I think X is so bad and crazy that it gives him cover to do things like rollback fact checking or things like that he's probably wanted to do for a while and can now or like sell verification, right? And things like that.

I mean, there was that report. I think it was about the Musk sort of complaining internally about declining user numbers. And I don't think that X is a fundamentally healthy platform. No. And in fact, like if I were someone like Zuckerberg watching this, I would just be waiting for it to implode and then go send a bunch of people to DC to sell government like to buy government contracts or whatever. I have to assume like the Jeff Bezos is, the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world are waiting

to scoop up the damage, like the wreckage and buy it or, you know, get like some cush contract out of it when Elon Musk embarrasses himself or gets thrown in jail or whatever. Yeah, or maybe hire some of these 23-year-olds to go work at Meta. If you want a kid vaping on your Zoom call, they'd be perfect for that. I'm curious also what you think is going to happen to the tech landscape under Trump. Obviously, Musk is probably going to enrich himself and we're all going to have to use X for a few more years. But the TikTok ban stuff is coming up. I mean, I feel like there was only that 90-day stay.

Like, what do you think is the future of TikTok as a platform under Trump? I think it stays and it and it has very American tweaks. How do you think it'll stay? Do you think he'll like force part of it to sell? Yeah, I think so. And I think TikTok will do it. TikTok already is like extremely. aggressive about like tracking your country. I can see them easily carving off in American

TikTok. And to answer your question more broadly, I just think like tech in America, which is already quite bad compared to the rest of the world, is going to get really stagnant. The apps that people are using in, you know, Asia or Europe or South America are light years ahead of what we see. And I think it's only just going to get more pronounced under Trump. What do you think people should keep in mind when they see these endless headlines about Elon Musk or these 19 year olds, you know, taking power from the government and Trump doing XYZ executive order. I think there are a lot of people who are not seeing these headlines. But if you are, if you're seeing a headline that says like, Donald Trump is getting rid of the

Department of Education. You should just take a second and be like, okay, is that possible? The only way forward here is to not get sucked into the craziness is to remind yourself that like we still have laws. We can still check these people out. We can still arrest them. I have been in countries that have gone through a detatership, through coups. And the malaise is the killer.

You're talking about an event horizon you reach where you feel like nothing can be changed. And that doesn't go away when you get out of the dictatorship 20 or 30 years later. Yeah, you just have to keep your head on straight because like it is hard, man. It is really hard. I am an eternal optimist. So I'm delusional about everything. So I'm like, it's probably going to be fine. Right.

But I am too to a degree, actually. I think I also don't like the reflexive panic that you see from a lot of like liberal influencers. And I don't think that we're going to get the same level of like resistance grifter type people that we had during the first Trump presidency. I think we're starting to see a few. Oh, no. Blossom right now, actually. If you go on to B-sky.app and check it out. That would be a shame if that ecosystem reemerged because there was so much misinformation and there was so much sort of like panic towards the wrong things.

I mean, back then it was all like this focus on Russia and like Russia put Trump in power. And like and I just, I hope that this time around people can sort of, yeah, get. better news sources and not like immediately spiral while also taking it seriously we should take it seriously that what these people are doing but as you said we do still have somewhat of a functioning government left sure yeah we can still drink the tap water like in most parts of a lot i think not everywhere not everywhere but most of them you know we the things that like really worry me are the supreme court level stuff and the and the and the genuinely nominated politicians that are being put into power like even even in a coup

There are still laws for a little bit. And so we've got to say like, okay, what is possible? What's not? And hopefully the media gets a little better at communicating that as well. I feel like that would be nice. I also hope some of these zoomers are good actors. I don't know. They seem sort of too authentically want to help.

And so I hope that they do, you know, they don't cause too much harm. Hey, if your young person wants to get involved in government, go barricade yourself to the door of the USAID office and help people break through and get in there. Then go get a job in the office when we fix the government. All right, Ryan. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. Thanks for having me. All right, that's it for the show.

You can watch full episodes of Power User on my YouTube channel at Taylor Lorenz. That's at Taylor Lorenz on YouTube. And please subscribe to my tech and online culture newsletter, Usermag.com. That's usermag.com. If you like the show, give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. See you then.