Taylor Lorenz’s Power User - The case against cell phone bans in school

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

A moral panic about kids' social media and smartphone use in schools has been sweeping the country. But are cell phones really the problem? And is removing them entirely the best approach? Taylor chats with educator Brandon Cardet-Hernandez, president of education media company Mrs. Wordsmith, about how smartphones can be used in the classroom, and how a ban would impact marginalized students the most. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Taylor Lorenz. Welcome to Power User. Lately, a moral panic about kids and smartphone use has been sweeping the country. Politically driven special interest groups, right-wing billionaires, and bad actors are preying on parents and teachers' fears and misunderstanding of technology to push for cell phone bans in schools. Raise your hand if you think this is a good idea to ban phones in schools. Schools versus smartphones, not all parents are happy about the growing movement to keep phones out of the classroom. States including Florida, Indiana, Ohio, South Carolina, and Louisiana have all recently passed laws banning cell phones in K-12 schools. And nearly seven and ten adults support some form of cell phone bans in schools.

My guest, Brandon Cardette Hernandez, was a public school principal and education advisor to former mayor Bill de Blasio. He is also president of Mrs. Wordsmith, an education media company that produces books and games to help improve literacy. Hi, Brandon. Welcome to Power User. Hello. So you are an expert in the educational space. Can you start by introducing yourself telling us a little bit about who you are and your background in the education world? Yeah. So I started my career as a special education teacher, focused on kids in high school. Sort of worked my way up the ranks and moved into this work in the sort of New York City District Central Office,

really focused on struggling schools and how we do school improvement. Then went on to do turnaround work as a principal in the South Bronx and had a lot of success thinking about how to really think about schools as an organization, turning them around and improving them systematically. And you're also a dad yourself and involved in your local school. I am. I'm a dad to a pretty awesome seven-year-old and I'm on the school board here in Boston. You're the first person that I've been able to find that is sort of like not completely pro cell phone ban aside from lots of parents that I've talked to. Tell me a little bit about kind of like how these cell phone bands started to come to fruition and why do you think they're all starting to happen right now? I have a lot of thoughts about this, and I don't think

there's one thing, because I think if there was one thing, this would be a super, sort of easy problem to solve. We saw what happened as the Surgeon General report came out and was talking about sort of the crisis of mental health. And we sort of stayed in that space and really connected it deeply to cell phone usage. And then in some ways, I think, which is sort of typical adult behavior, we took ourselves out of the equation and made the problem not adults' relationships with kids and the ways that they're forming relationships outside of the relationship that we have individually with young people. But we made it just about the phone. And so I think that started to sort of shift accountability from like, well, what is the adult role in supporting a young person's skill development

and their ability to sort of adapt to the moment? I think the world has shifted. And I think coming out of 2020 and reintegrating into society in a very different way with a recognition of still how complex everything is. Adults had this moment, even you and I are like on Zoom having a video conversation. We are able to like work in hybrid ways. And we didn't allow that for kids. And we said for many folks in the world of work, you're going to go back to work three days a week, two days a week in person. We're going to create all this new flexibility. And we had offered young people incredible flexibility over COVID. They were going to school remotely. And then we introduced some hybrid schedules and A-B schedules and some really creative things

were happening across the country. And then one day we just pulled it away. And we said, it's good enough for adults to think about innovative ways to make work and productivity happen. And it's not good enough for kids. We're going exactly back to the way we were. And I think, rightly so, the kids were not all right. And they were like, we're not liking this. We've had a very different relationship with technology over the last few years. And this idea that it's getting taken away and there's no new adjustments, I think you experience some of that tension. But I do think at its core, what we are really managing is a tension between the boundaries that are necessary and healthy between adults and young people and our unwillingness to do that work.

So make the pro argument, I guess, for cell phones in schools. Because it seems like, again, And this is this issue that adults all over say, well, this is something we can all agree on, right? We can't always agree if you should raise the age of social media or different boundaries at home. But we can all agree phones should be removed from schools. Why do you think that that is not such a good idea? I think boundaries are always good in every place. I have work meetings where we're just like phones away. Let's have our eyes on each other.

Let's stay really focused. So like creating norms around the use of technology. like at any moment is great. At the same time, I also have work meetings where I have an AI tool who's taking notes so one person doesn't have to do that. I use technology to assist me every day in my life. And as a 40-year-old man, I am learning how to do that and catch up with the times. When we take phones away from kids, we lessen their opportunity to have those assistive tools that will allow them to be more productive later. And I get, just like, like you and I, there are moments where I'm on my phone and sometimes I'm flipping through

Instagram. There are moments where I can be distracted, and so I have to create accountability around that distraction. But there are a million positive uses that have to be taught, skills that have to be developed, or we are going to have a generation of young people who are behind in their ability to use assistive technology to support their own productivity. And I find that scary. And the The thing I will say here is I think the conversation we aren't having is who gets the most harmed in those moments. And so you have young people across the country who go to schools with one-to-one devices. Like they have a laptop that they're moving around classroom to classroom.

There's one kid, one device. They're not sharing. There's no laptop cart that's being pulled out and then you're taking it and using it for the period. And so those kids are using Google classrooms in different ways. They're using AI tools. They're not taking notes in the way that you and I used to take notes in class because they're using new tech. Right.

Like they may be a non-native English speaker and they're using translation tools to support them in class. They're getting all of that because they have a device. And many kids across the country just don't have that experience. And so that phone is a mini word processor. It's their calendar. They're seeing a deck on the smart board in their classroom and they're taking pictures of the slides. just like we do every single day so that they can hold on to that information. And you take off what is going to be a really needs to become an intuitive skill of like, how do I use these devices

to help me be more productive? You remove that in service of like our fantasy of the way we were supposed to learn. The way we learned was the right way. And I think you create a lot of harm. And I think who you really harm is the kids who are the most economically disadvantaged. I hear this from parents because I will say that the few parents that have reached out to me about this issue are parents that don't have access, like you mentioned. They're underprivileged or they say, my child needs it for a calculator or my child needs it to get in touch or my child has learning disabilities, ADHD, and actually the phone helps keep them on track with reminders throughout the day and keeps them on schedule and they have their notes app and they take things down. And again, like you mentioned, just the way that all of us use it, how much. of this do you think is driven by adults, bad relationships with their own phones? Because that's also something I feel like people feel like, well, yes, I use my phone to help me with work and everything, but I'm also on Instagram too much. So why won't children just sit on social media all day? I think there's a major projection here that's happening. And I've been part of that problem

at different moments, right? Where like the thing I am doing must be universally true for everyone. I think some of it is our projection of our own relationship with phones, with a recognition that our relationship started later. We built this relationship at a different moment in our life, and we lost an opportunity, actually, and interestingly, we were talking about taking it away to build a much more integrated relationship with it. I think part of it is that. I think we have a crisis of boundaries globally, and I think it's really hard for adults to do

the hard thing, which has set boundaries with. kids and create norms. I think there is a third thing. And this I really hold to be true, is we don't feel confident in our ability to teach the skills, to understand the technology, and to feel like smart consumers of technology. Therefore, we are struggling to help kids see those opportunities. And I mean, arguably, that doesn't mean you take it away. That means you invest in your own learning, right? Like, how do I use AI in my classroom? How do I help kids, kids use digital calendars instead of writing it down on a piece of paper that they're never going to look at again, right?

Like, really, from the sort of most analog digital things we can do to the most sophisticated from note-taking tools and translation services, we have to know how to use it to then be able to teach kids how to use it well. And part of sometimes, while we're just doodling around on our Instagram, is because we don't know what else the device can do. There's much more interesting things that could happen. And if we knew those things, we might find ourselves still engaged with our device, but doing much cooler things with it. But that has to be taught.

You have to learn those skills. And we have an opportunity to teach those skills to young people. And how terrifying that our answer right now is like, no, take it away. Take it all away. It seems like this antiquated, I went to public school, basically my whole life. And I had a horrible, horrible educational experience. It was just the classic, like, you must learn, you know, this way, right? And I hear a lot of that kind of rhetoric in teaching now, right? It's like when you have to learn script or something, right? And you're like, I'm not going to use this or whatever. But, you know, there's reasons that you have to learn it, maybe find motor skills or other reasons. Like, I guess, are there any sort of like learning reasons why they would ban cell phones? Do you see any benefit to learning the old school way and saying, you know what, parents can teach those digital skills at home? The school is not the place to learn digital. skills or learn how to use technology. Here's how they learn to read, write arithmetic,

and the analog way, and that's going to best prepare their minds for the future. Well, I think it's kind of a fantasy, right? So, and which I totally get, and I think some of parenting and the work we do as healthy adults in a young person's life is sometimes rooted in our own fantasy around our own childhood, because to question it would interrupt so much of our own experience. Like, it had to have been good enough. I turned out okay. But I think the fallacy here is twofold. For me, what I'm curious about are outcomes academically, right? Like, that's the educator I am. Like, I want kids to achieve. We live in a country where 65% of U.S. fourth graders read below proficient. It's only 35% of fourth graders in America are reading on grade

level. And we could also do this thing that everyone's doing now, right? We're just like, And we could connect that all back to smartphones. It's because there's more phones and more tech. And then you go back and you're like, that was also true in 1992. 72% of fourth graders, 71% of eighth graders were reading below grade level then. We had less tech in our lives then. We have an instruction problem. And so I think sometimes the behaviors we see, which I think is real.

I was a teacher and I was a principal. Kids are disengaged, so they're grabbing their phone. just like you and I probably do in meetings that are boring. If the meeting was captivating, we would totally phone down and be right there. But what you're thinking is the adult is like, I should command your curiosity regardless of what I'm offering you. And that somehow will lead to these great outcomes. But we haven't had those great outcomes,

even when there wasn't a device to interrupt our attention. We are struggling with creating learning opportunities that are closing achievement gaps that are moving kids forward, and that's creating a country where people can read and people can do math, and that that is the norm across the board. And I believe some of what is missing is our ability to use devices to engage learning in a much more meaningful way. You look at classrooms. This is this age-old problem of American schooling, right? And if I showed you a classroom of a single-room schoolhouse in whatever year, to a classroom in 1934, to a classroom in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, they look the same. There's a board, maybe it was a chalkboard,

then it became a marker board, then it was a smart board, and kids are in desks, and they sit there, and they're supposed to be good students, and there's, like, paper and stuff. The results haven't proved to be the thing that really does the thing that school's supposed to do, which is drive achievement. And I just think we're focused on the wrong problem, but a problem that's easier to solve. It is much easier to take away phones than it is to have. of the really difficult conversation of are we teaching well? Are we teaching in a way that's engaging? Are we driving results? And are we building healthy relationships with kids so that they are curious about learning and they show up and want to do more.

What about the correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't so much of what teachers can teach and say in the classroom driven by curriculums and the government? And I guess what you have to teach at some certain time in some certain way. And so I guess teachers and a lot of administrators feeling powerless and that maybe you want to ban the phones because they might not have the ability to change the curriculum or teach in these innovative, more interesting ways. But it goes to a question of like KPI, like what's the outcome? And for me, the outcome of school, and we can have this as a different podcast in a much bigger philosophical debate.

But I know that when adults experience literacy, they have higher economic outcomes, they have higher health outcomes, like all of this is proven. We know this all to be true. And so for me, one of the key points of school is for kids to leave and be on grade level with high levels of skill, ready to go into the world. And we know that the phones haven't been the real problem to achieving that. We haven't achieved that. Like, we look at black and Latino achievement in this country since the 60s, and we've made minimal gains. And so the phones weren't the problem. Our instruction is. And we are talking about, to this whole conversation, major policies that are focused on phones and not major policies focused on curriculum.

And so you're right, I understand this sort of helpless moment of what are we doing. I want my kids to focus. And I do too. And there may be other ways to drive that focus. It might not be just banning things. It might be really taking inventory of the problem to date, the achievement gaps that have persisted over time, And that they persisted before phones came into the picture. And that's actually the work we have to do.

And that's much harder work than just banning a phone. We'll be right back with more Brandon Cardin Hernandez after the break. So much of this reminds me, and we've covered a lot on this show, and I've written so much about this of this broader moral panic around technology use that's happening right now, and technology use among children. And I think these school bands, cell phone bans, are very much tied to that. You hear a lot of conversations around mental health. we've debunked the idea that social media use or cell phone use is remotely the cause of

any sort of mental health crisis among children. It is just simply not true. Absolutely no data back set up despite what people like Jonathan Haidt, who are essentially political actors, you know, very much misleading people want people to believe. Then you see things that are happening in Australia, right? Where they're like trying to up the age of internet or social media used to 16. I know there's an effort that Jonathan Haid has pushed himself to raise it to 16 or 18 here. How do you think this sort of cell phone ban fits into this broader movement? Because I see a lot of the same activist groups and the same really motivated political groups pushing the cell phone bans at school, almost as a sort of test case to push these broader restrictions on technologies among

young people across the country outside of school. I think there are really important individual conversations that are rooted in knowing your kid around cell phone usage and particularly around social media. And those are like important conversations to have at home. I remember, do you remember the commercials when we were younger that was like the sort of like, do you know where your kid is? Yes. And so like that, and that was amazing. And actually, when you think about that time, it was another moment of a crisis of parenting where that was not a do you know where your kid is because there was some like magical door that they could have gone into and all of a sudden there were Narnia. It was like, your kid's out and about, and do you know where they are, how engaged are you as a parent?

And there is the same kind of question in our modern day. Do you know what your kid's doing online? Do you just hand your kid TikTok and you've never been on it? I don't know if that's a great idea. I want to know a little bit more of what my kid is doing. Like, is your kid playing a video game and you've never parallel played with them? And so they're like doing some sort of activity and engaging with people all across the world and you don't understand it. You may decide, I love this video game.

Or you may decide this video game is wildly violent. not into it. This is not right for our house. But you don't know you have to engage. And we're, I worry that, again, to the point, like, we're just removing the engagement part of the relationship that is the central part of closeness. And to really get back to your question, I think it's connected and I also think it's disconnected. Obviously, a big connection between the social media debate and school bands. I think there's a danger in that because it speaks again to just like adults sometimes just being old and like we're not seeing the full picture. And so we're having a conversation about social media.

Now we're talking about taking away some kids only calculator. There are the sort of wide range of what a device can do in a young person's life is so big. And we're focused on this tiny little piece. We also know, yes, there is a crisis, a mental health crisis that's happening among young people. We also just saw the Surgeon General Report where there's a crisis happening amongst parents. Like we have real complicated relationship with mental health globally right now that I think is bigger than just devices. I think it's about the way we live. It's about the way people engage.

It's about our closeness. It's about our own guilts around the way that our world has changed. Like much bigger conversations around how we're here. But it is easy to just be like there has to be one thing and one thing only. And I think you take that one thing away and we're going to see it's like another thing and another thing. and another thing. Yeah, there's also just so many interest groups at play. I mean, you have groups like the Heritage Foundation and others really seeking to cut off young people's access to smartphones and technology and the broader world, especially among marginalized kids and LGBTQ youth. There's

a moral panic around kids using technology. You had Marcia Blackburn saying that she wanted to pass the Kids Online Safety Act and ban kids from social media to eradicate the transgender in society. I talked to the wife of a friend recently who believes truly that Instagram has turned children in her son's class gay, which is terrifying. But I know, but it's like, even it's just, I really worry that this idea that these phones are these all powerful things that are what's destroying mental health in our society, not to mention like conflating mental health problems with being LGBTQ, which is completely inappropriate. It seems to have like stirred up a lot of panic. And you have, again, these powerful special interest groups with a lot of money showing up at these school board meetings, like assigning people like Jonathan Haidt, right? A complete pseudoscience person that is misleading people deeply over actual academics like Candace Adjors or Alice Marwick or people that actually study this stuff. So how do we fix it?

Like how do what it's such a dire situation? What can parents do or what can teachers in these school districts do to try to change this? It's interesting because you're right. It is a question that we have to ask, which is like, who am I building coalition with and around what? The educators in my life, who I know, who are like, I'm worried about outcomes. A third of my class is not reading. And they're thinking, if I get rid of this phone, I might be able to drive achievement faster. That is coming from a great place of like, all I want to see is kids win.

And if I get rid of this thing, could I be moving them faster? And I would argue to them, actually, there's a bunch of stuff on there where you're going to be able to tailor learning in a different way, you'll get better data. You might actually have the tool that can finally narrow the achievement gap in a much more expedited way than we've ever had before because it doesn't rely on you, single teacher in front of 35 kids. That's one piece of the puzzle. But then you catch that these same people who are focused on kids learning are then joining forces with folks who think social media creates proximity to any question a young person has around their sexual orientation or their gender identity.

And so that means it's bad. And so this is actually there's a moral issue. Or it creates new opportunities for bullying. Like we start getting all these people that it just starts piling up on their pet issue as connected to this thing. And all of a sudden, you've built coalition with people who aren't actually your friends. And that part is what I'm watching happening here, which I think is the dangerous moment we're in. where the educator and the parent who's like,

my kid's not reading enough, and I want my kid to read more and is thinking that the phone is the distraction from reading, like, I can get with you. Like, you and I can have a real logical conversation to be like, all right, what are ways that you can drive the goal that you have with new boundaries with your kid?

But the person, it's like bookbands to me. It's like the person who's just like trying to drive a book band because of some sort of moral imperative they have around what's, someone can consume or can consume. That is not the America I know nor want to live in. That's just not how I see the world. It is the America that we live in. And I mean, we saw this with like comic book bans, right? Or banning novels or trying to ban children from read newspapers. I feel like we do see these moral panics. And we know how it plays out. And we know how devastating

the consequences can be. And yet you have these parents groups building, like you said, coalition with these extreme right-wing special interest groups to push laws that would restrict kids? That they may not actually agree with. That's the crazier part that I'm watching. It's real ideas that they may not actually agree with. I think we have to get sober around the reality of who has devices, the reality of the use cases for most kids and how they use their devices. The reality, the economic reality for so many Americans and the ways that devices play in a young person's life, how many young people are literally using their phone as a word processor so that they can submit papers to you. And sometimes they're just doing that in the lunchroom,

right? Like the way you and I did homework in the lunchroom that like every time they're on their phone, they might not be doing something naughty. And like we have to really get that shift going that we see kids as smart and capable, that need to have bound. And that need to have bound. and that there is a context in which we live in where everyone's use of the phone is not the same, and that the outright ban will shift what someone can do, where, when, and how. That's the part that I am encouraged by because I want that conversation to happen. And then I do think there's this adult training ground. There's this professional learning that needs to happen for all of us.

You and I, included, right, but we're curious about this stuff. So we're doing this every day. It's the question of what can this tool do? because if you start really thinking about the opportunities, and I'm thinking about this for teachers too, the opportunities of what this can do in your life and what it can do to service a young person, and particularly if you're like me where all you're thinking about is how do I accelerate achievement, and you start thinking about how the tool can help you accelerate achievement by creating opportunities for personalization, then you might be inspired by what you can do.

And then it might feel less scary. But if you're only looking at it as a tool, for a kid to get on TikTok or to have bunny ears. It's a really reductive way of thinking about what the technology can do and an incredibly reductive way in looking at what kids can do if they're focused. It's so funny we're having all these conversations around cell phones now and this moral panic is happening now when wearables are taking off. AI is being integrated into everything. I just wrote about these AI plush toys that will have long-running interaction with your children and sort of learn with them and converse with them.

That is the world that we're going to. And I think we can't properly shape that world if we just deny it and just say, we're banning everything. We're going back to the 1960s, you know, like... We're going back to my childhood. Yeah. But your childhood doesn't exist anymore. And so when 95% of kids have a smartphone, when 15% of American households use their phone,

for high-speed internet, when one and five black and Hispanic adults are smartphone-dependent, they don't have any other tool for internet, when a quarter of high school students hold jobs today, the world is really different. Those are such important stats, by the way, that I feel like are never part of this conversation. It's a really different world. And I saw a statistic recently, too. It was like 58% of young people said they use their phones to just take photos of lecture slides. Like taking that away is just like reducing this opportunity to know a little bit more.

And I, we're just missing the possibilities because we're operating in fear. Yeah, it just seems like there's such like disparity in terms of who's actually affected by these policies and who actually gets heard when we're talking about that. I've been thinking about this a lot. And I am a grown man, but I grew up part of my life in foster care. And I think about like who doesn't have. a seat at the table. And this is a big piece of my why. It's how I ended up in education. It's why this is my life's work. Because I know that, and it's why I talk about achievement so much, like when young people achieve, they have higher possibilities for economic opportunities and breaking

cycles of poverty and great health outcomes. And part of that is rooted in literacy, right? But I also think about who has a seat at the table to have these conversations. And as a former foster kid, there's no way, representatively, foster families in America are being represented in this conversation. Like, do we want kids having phones to be able to learn these skills? And the same is true for kids who are experiencing homelessness, right? We see this in New York City. There's 1.1 million kids. There's over 150,000 kids who are experiencing homelessness this year. Those parents, respectfully, are probably not making their way to school board meetings across the country. They're not writing think pieces. They're not sharing their voice. What we have is really nice,

mostly white parents who are fighting for a policy that sometimes, to point to that I made earlier have a lot more to do with their own boundary setting, with their own child, than the actual wellness of every child. And they will fight for a policy that in many ways will not impact them the same way and that they won't fully participate in. Their kids will still have some sort of device. They're still going to have computers at their school. They're still going to be able to access these skills. They're still going to get to go to summer clamps where, I don't know, maybe they're learning coding, right? Like, they're going to be able to engage in this new tech in a way that serves these families

while removing the limited opportunities so many families today have to build these skills in the blink of an eye. And that part to me is also really scary. It's a part we're not talking about. It's so selfish, honestly, it's so selfish because it's this group of, I would say, also largely middle class to upper middle class. white parents, suburban parents that also cannot conceptualize that people use phones in different ways. I mean, some kids go to, they wake up at 5am and they work a shift before school or after school. And they need their phones for various reasons. And they need their phones throughout

school, not just to keep in touch with work, but like to catch up or to communicate or to finish their homework, you know, during free period. Taylor, it's a calculator in many schools. I mean, on the most basic level, this is where I think some of these families are missing the mark here. For some kids, it is literally the calculator they have during lunch. For some kids, it is the device that they're going to use to find a synonym. For some kids, it's where they're finding citations for an essay they're working on. For some kids, it is the word processor. For other kids, they're using it for just really creative opportunities.

They're building music with it. They're editing photos. They're doing really cool stuff that's driving their creative. It may not look like what you and I did, which was like drawing on a piece of paper, but there are other ways that they're finding creative outlets. For some, it's community. They may feel really isolated at their school, and then guess what? They get to chat with someone they know in another place who's like them.

And maybe your kid doesn't need that. Maybe you have a computer at home, and you have a gaming console, and you have all the stuff and things. But there are kids who do, and a universal ban removes that opportunity. We should be thinking about how to get more access to kids, not figuring out ways to take it away because I worry that the people who are fighting to take it away aren't really worried that their kids losing anything. What can people do to sort of fight back against this moral panic and against this crusade against cell phones in schools? Like, how can people get involved?

Yeah, I think we have to have the conversation. And I think what is slowly starting to happen is there's just sort of like it's a universal. truth that's sort of starting to come to play? Or it's like, yes, it's bad, and social media is bad, and the kids are not all, and so just get rid of it all. And if you're holding curiosity around that, and you feel like

maybe it's a little too much, maybe you're not all the way where Brandon is, but maybe you're somewhere else. I think you have to have that conversation. Maybe your kid is actually, you've watched them, and they've been playing educational games at home to support their dyslexia, and you're like, wait, if they had more of that in school, would that

dosage have shifted their ability to accelerate faster. Maybe you have those experiences, or you know your kid is using a calendar to organize their day because they have a bunch of activities after school, or whatever it is. Or you know your kid's a non-native English speaker. And like, that translation tool in their pocket has been really helpful for them, forging new friendships, having difficult conversations in their classroom expressing themselves. Maybe those things are true for you. You have these little data points, real qualitative experiences where you're like, I saw this tech work for my young person, and it wasn't just the thing I'm the most worried about, which is like they're using it to, I don't know, access social media.

Engage in those conversations. Share those stories, have those conversations, and recognize that an outright ban means we lose those opportunities, particularly for the most vulnerable kids. Well, Brandon, thank you so much for chatting with me today. Thank you for having me. That's all for the show. You can watch full episodes of Power User. on my YouTube channel at Taylor Lorenz.

Power User is produced by Travis Larcuk and Jelani Carter. Our executive producer is Zach Mack. Our video editor is Sam Essex. Power User is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you like this show, give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And in the meantime, subscribe to my newsletter, usermag.com. We can get all the latest online culture news straight to your inbox. Thanks, and we'll see you next week.