Taylor Lorenz’s Power User - What's up with Fake Podcast Ads, AI Audiobooks and the Audio Creator Economy?

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Bloomberg’s Ashley Carman joins Taylor Lorenz to discuss the current state of audio and its creator economy. They discuss Spotify's impact and how close we are to achieving the decade-long dream of viral audio. Plus, Ashley takes us into the ridiculous world of fake podcast ads on TikTok and the rise of audiobooks and AI narrators. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From fake viral podcasts to AI-generated audiobooks, Bloomberg's Ashley Carmen is the reporter for all things audio. Today, she and I are going to get into the state of the audio landscape, how it's affecting the creator economy, and the unseen forces that are shaping what we listen to. We'll also discuss some of this year's breakout podcast stars and where the audio industry is headed. That's all coming up right now on Power User.

Hi, Ashley. Welcome to Power User. Hey, how's it going? I feel like podcasts have become so ubiquitous. We're so used to seeing this person in front of a microphone like we're doing right now online. One of my favorite stories you did recently is about these fake podcasts online. Can you talk a little bit about this sort of like fake podcast industry and why it's emerged? Yeah. So I wrote this story about this burgeoning economy online, which is essentially Fiverr and on backstage, you have actors who are willing to do advertisements. for brands where essentially the setup is staged to look like a podcast. They have a microphone in front of them instead of looking to camera like they might for a standard ad, they look off camera. So essentially when you come across this in your TikTok feeds or reels, you think you're catching a podcast midway through, but actually it's a totally just advertisement that is meant to look like a podcast. And these folks are making thousands of dollars doing it. And it's just become this new way for brands to really

access kind of the valor of a podcast without actually working with podcasters. So, High Five is this totally Amazon compliant tool that automates the requesting of reviews. I went ahead and tried it, and I seriously don't know why more people are not talking about it. Have you ever heard of the Ulta Self app? Oh, like the biohacking app? Yeah, yeah. So instead of like scrolling, I'm actually improving myself. I mean, Netflix is in real trouble.

Where'd you hear this? I read it on the dailies. On the what? Oh, you don't know the dailies? Nope. Yeah, I mean, this thing's a must for anybody in the industry. So it's a newsletter. It gives you all the important film and TV industry news straight to your email inbox.

It does feel a little Joe Rogan stolen valor because that one guy, V Shred, I mean, he had like the complete fake Joe Rogan seeming background almost. Like, if you saw that clip, I think I even as a somewhat sophisticated internet user would think that he was a guest on that show. I feel like they are taking steps to really make, like, borderline. mimic fake appearances. Well, and what's kind of interesting, too, is that the actors have also sort of found their own niches. So I talked to one guy who was like, yeah, actor was really inspired by Rogan. His background doesn't look like that, but he looks just like shredded, older guy.

He does all these ads for supplements. But then someone else I spoke to is more like a younger person, more of like an office sort of environment, and he reads ads for tech companies. So it's like they've become their own niches as well. That's so interesting. Have any of them launched their own podcasts? No. The people I talked to actually were like, I don't want to be in this business. Oh, my God. They were ready to get out. It's tough out there. What trends are you seeing in the audio and podcast space? What can we expect to see in the second half of 2024 and into 2025? I mean, I think the main thing that I'm watching and kind of always trying to figure out is how all of these different business models fit together. So, for example, audiobooks and podcasts,

You could take a limited narrative series that's a podcast, bundle it up and say this is now an audiobook and people buy it versus listening to an ad supported. And so then I'm also like, okay, if you have an audiobook, could you turn it into a video production and then put it on YouTube? Like, how do you make all this work? I feel like the white noise podcasters and musicians have sort of proven this out where you can release white noise as music and have the royalty model work for you.

Or you can release it as a podcast and get paid through ads. and make a ton of money. So I think this is sort of that convergence that I've been waiting to see. And I feel like we're kind of at that moment where now that can really happen. I'm sure you've seen the app air chat that kind of went viral a couple weeks ago. Okay. So air chat is basically like an audio version of Twitter. And I feel like really since Clubhouse kicked this off in 2020, I am constantly getting pitches of people that are say that they're basically that this is the first wave of audio content creators. I think audio is actually the one format that we've never really seen disrupted, I guess,

like by the creator economy. I mean, I guess you could argue podcasts, kind of. But things like air chat and these audio-focused platforms allow sort of average people to be able to post and engage and, like, develop audiences almost non-strategically. I feel like to do a podcast, it's more like you're coming with a show idea. It feels like starting a YouTube channel more than, like, posting on TikTok or kind of like just allowing a lot of like average people to have this new format that they can engage in in amassed an audience. Do you think that we're ever going to actually get like an audio creator

economy the way that we have the video creator economy, live streaming? Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question. I think part of the problem is just that, and I see this with air chat too, I mean, even if you have the transcript, do you scroll with sound on always? Are you going to read huge swaths of text, which are easy to say, but maybe you don't want to. read a whole paragraph. I think it's just a very tricky medium to also, for algorithms to also really do a good job of curating. And that's why the video part of this has become so important to podcasting because they're like, we can't reach people just with our audio. Like no one necessarily wants to listen to a mini clip or whatever on Twitter. It's like very hard to get sound bites to go viral.

It is. And I, there was this great piece. I think it was written like 10 years ago about like why does audio never go viral. And I think it's because there's not that visual component. I mean, there's like viral clips and sound bites, but you're right. It feels like audio will always just be a feature on social media apps and never the focus of a standalone app. You could argue like Spotify is probably an audio focused app, right? But it's mostly about music and podcasts. What do you think of TikTok audio? So a specific audio clip that people use across TikTok as a meme. That's actually true. That's probably an example of audio is going viral actually, but it's more like as a background for video. You still need that video aspect of it to make the content shareable

and to make it interesting. And I think that it's like those things working together that function the best. You know, it's funny. I was doing a podcast yesterday, which is a big podcast that my friend does and, you know, she was saying, I promise I will never do video because she was saying that the way that people listen to you when they watch you is so different than the way that they listen to you when they're not seeing your face. How do you think that the growth of video in the podcasting era has changed the way that people relate to podcasters? Do you think it's strengthening or weakening the bonds? Wow. I wish I had any research on that to back up, like, other than just thoughts and instinct. But I mean, obviously podcasts are known as having parisocial relationships

with their listeners. And so I can imagine seeing the podcaster could be helpful, although I have just heard like personal experiences of people being like, whoa, that is not what I thought that person looks like or who they are at all. So I think it kind of just depends on the relationship the individual person for first. I mean, I'm curious for you, like what made you launch a video with your podcast? I feel like you just have to for promotion because it's the only way to share clips, like you said, on social media. I also, and also YouTube is just, where most people, many people at least listen to podcasts these days. Okay, my theory, which is also based in absolutely no research or data, but just what I think,

is that it actually makes you have less of a bond with the person that you're listening to. I think that when you are watching someone, you're almost so distracted and you're taking in all of these inputs and you're not really like in your head the same way as when you're just listening to someone's voice and it almost gives you more space to like really process what they're saying and listen. Maybe it seems like a boomer thing to say because I certainly watch podcast too, but I guess I used to listen to the H3H3 podcast for hours. And when I started watching it, I guess it really changed my relationship with the show where I'm like, oh, it's just another piece of YouTube content now, kind of. Yeah, I could see that. It makes total sense. I mean,

typically you're probably listening to a podcast on a commute or on a walk or cooking when you're kind of doing it ambiently, but also able to give it your full attention, whereas when you're watching something, even if it's Netflix. I'm on my phone. I'm doing like seven screens at a time. Maybe listening is something like I'm texting. You know, it just, it isn't your, the behavior. You're doing something typically when you're listening to a podcast. It's like a different time in your life that you're dedicating to it. And also, I wanted to say too, when I was thinking about this viral audio question you had. And I feel like a good example too is the Britney Spears memoir, where there was the impression of Justin Timberlake. Walking our way was a guy with a huge

blinged out medallion. He was flanked by two giant security guards. Jay got all excited and said so loud, oh yeah, foes, foeshshs, genuine. What's up, homie? People loved that clip. And I think actually, that's something I'm also watching is just as audiobooks now have typically always been behind kind of a decently priced subscription, namely Audible or the library, but, you know, Audible is a big one or you could purchase books at a cart. All of which is say, Spotify now, so many people use Spotify, especially younger generations who are on digital media, that I think you could really see some of these audio clips going viral and pushing people to actually check out the longer form version. That's so interesting. Yeah. So do you think like clips from books will start being spread?

I do. I do. I think the New York Times wrote a piece about celebrity narrators being brought in to narrate some of these memoirs and other books. And I think that kind of convergence of celebrity doing the reading and maybe a book that's already kind of splatch. can really make for a moment that would happen online. I think you're right. You know, I was so shocked with my own book that I think, I don't know where it stands now, but certainly initially, way more people were buying the audio book than the physical copy. And I think that's just how people prefer to consume books these days.

Yeah. It's also interesting. I feel like in the past couple years, we've just seen this like audio layer across the whole internet. I was writing about dating apps recently, and I didn't even realize that so many of them have added the audio, like, messaging, like, you know, you have these little, like, voice notes basically that you leave on your profile. And it seems just like audio is being integrated in more and more spaces. At the same time, it just never seems to break through, I guess. It's interesting

to think about also with AI. I mean, I know the New York Times recently added readable AI. You know, any article can now be read by an AI voice. The post has actually done that for years. This article is by Sopna Maheshwari and David McCabe and read by an automated voice. Do you think that that's the way that all sort of written content is going to go, that we're going to have these audio versions of it? I think it's definitely something people want. I think I was surprised I was out with someone somewhat recently and they said, like, we were talking about something and they said, oh yeah, I listened to that article. And as someone who's in news and who's reading so much every day, that really surprised me because I'm always reading articles. But I think there's definitely an

audience out there for that type of delivery who maybe don't want to sit through and read a long read. I mean, it is really nice sometimes to listen to the feature articles as just like a little mini narrative podcast or something. I exclusively listen to articles if they're long because it's just, it's much easier. So Amazon introduced a tool that allows authors to create these AI generated audiobook versions of their work. This title is narrated with virtual voice. Computer generated narration for audiobooks. It's been used already 40,000 times. Honestly, that seems like something that should have existed years ago to me.

Well, audiobook listeners, I wrote a little bit about user reaction and they've been pretty upset because for them, for them it's more of a filtering question. Like they want to be able to filter out AI narrated books because if you're a power listener and you really prefer to hear whoever narrating a book, it may be preferable to you than an AI generated voice. So I think this became more of a question around product and like how do you handle an influx of AI generated voiced content and make your love. listener base actually happy about it. Yeah, I think right now AI is at this place where it's probably a worse user experience to listen to some of these books that have the AI generated versions. But I kind of imagine or at least hope for a future where we can just choose the version, like almost how you can choose what Siri voice you get, where like you can choose who's reading. I know when I was picking the voice actor that was reading my book, because I only got to read the

intro of my book, I kind of wished I could have all of. them. Like I was, you know, I feel like some people prefer this type of reader, some people prefer for another. So I hope as AI gets better, we can just give everyone the choice to listen to the I would not be surprised if that happens. Like, yeah, I feel like that will happen someday. My genius idea for the publishing industry is they should let you buy an audio book, but they should send you like a dummy book that you can still post on Instagram and hold up, you know, just for promotion. I love it. All right. We'll be right back with more Ashley Carman talking about celebrity podcasts and everything else audio.

Spotify stock is up. Investors love them. All these layoffs and cup packs that they recently did from a business perspective seem to be working. How influential is Spotify compared to other apps like YouTube, Apple, these other podcasting apps? I feel like they made this huge push into podcasting. Has it been successful for them? Yeah. It kind of depends on what you define success as. But there was research this week that claims that Spotify is the number one podcasting app now, surpassing. Apple Podcasts. So in that sense, if that data is trusted, then totally. People are using Spotify to listen to podcasts and they've expanded the reach of podcasts. Was their acquisition strategy successful? Like they bought all these podcast networks, Gimlet Media, Parcast, the Ringer. I mean, they really gutted Gimlet Media and Parcast and cut a ton of shows. So I'm sure the producers there would say that in that sense, it definitely was not successful. There was this time, Spotify history a couple years ago, I feel like where they were giving all influencers were doing podcasts. I feel like a lot of them have flopped. How would you sort of like summarize the state of

the influencer podcast market right now? I think that boom, you were sort of talking about whether it was Spotify, but also lots of companies pursued, especially during the pandemic slash a little mid-pandemic-y, were pursuing TikTok creators and saying, okay, they are super popular on TikTok. Let's just give them a podcast and do this thing. But I didn't totally take advantage. of the reason they were really popular, which is video. And so now I think we're seeing a bit more strategizing where, yes, certain influencers can hold a conversation for 30 minutes or whatever it's going to be for their podcast. Certain people have really interesting perspectives, but a lot of the time now it's going

to incorporate video and they're going to be a lot smarter about who they're working with. Because some of the biggest podcasts are YouTuber hosted or TikTok are hosted. Like I'm very interested in what Alex Cooper is building with Alex Earle as one of her stars. so it is interesting. I also see this trend, and I'm curious where your thoughts are on it, of reality stars launching podcasts as a huge Vanderpump rules, Stan. Every single one of them is launched a podcast. It seems like every time a character or controversy blows up, you have the person, it's almost become expected now of like, all right, let's launch the podcast, let's get everyone talking, they all interview each other. Can you talk about that? And is that something that you think

that these networks might start to co-opt or compete with? I mean, I'm surprised that, like Bravo, for instance, doesn't seem to have a stake in any of these shows. Yeah, I don't know exactly how the business side of that works, but I've certainly seen the trend. And I think it's sort of like sports where it happens live or like it airs a specific time. And it's the type of content that you're like, I need to talk about this with someone and I need to parse it and like, why did they do this? What happened here? So that is like that live connection that really makes it something that does well on a podcast. I'm not surprised to happen. I think there are certainly leading voices that are now coming through and kind of establishing

themselves as the person to come to for that reality show interview. Yeah. Well, Nick Vile, I feel like is. Yeah, Nick has definitely been the one. To be the villain on The Bachelor, all it takes is a big personality, a willingness to, you know, be unapologetically yourself and not shy away from conflict or drama, which we saw from Maria this season. One other question about Spotify and just the podcast charts, it seems like it's so difficult

for new podcast stars to emerge and really break into this like top group. Like every time I look at the podcast like top charts, it's like all of the main sort of expected people and they're all huge now. Are you seeing any interesting new podcasts by interesting personalities that have been getting traction? And do you think the discovery mechanisms are there enough to really have these platforms make a star? Or do you think Spotify will always be sort of like acquiring podcasts that blew up in 2018. Well, if Spotify itself can make a star, I think that's an open question. But I think if all of the tools are working together, people can break through. I mean, you might classify her differently, but Bobby Elthoff, who does have a podcast and obviously also was on TikTok first, but like,

she has this long-form podcast, it's a video version. I think she was really a big name that sprung up this past year where kind of came out of nowhere for many people. And those podcast charts do change. like Theo Vaughn has been around for a long time, but he wasn't at the top of the charts. Okay, wait, we have to discuss Theo Vaughn. I am so interested in what you think of him. He also, I feel like, you're right, he's one that sort of came out of nowhere for me. I know that he's a popular comedian and his show had been growing for a while. But lately, at least in the content creator industry, he is all anybody can talk about.

I lost the spelling bee to a pregnant girl. Do you remember the word? Yep, inconvenience. people are obsessed with this man and his show. What do you think it is? What is his special sauce and what do you think makes him so compelling? I don't listen to his show very often. So I don't really have a strong perspective on it. But I think the Atlantic wrote a story about him recently where they kind of put it as he's authentic. He sort of keeps you on your toes. Like you don't know where he's really going to go with things. And they also pointed up that he has like a spirituality about him, which is kind of interesting and funny. I mean, I think comedians always do well. in podcasts. But also he has been around for a long time. Like, I think he's been building a fan base. It isn't like Bobby Othoff, who was on TikTok, but still, like, she was slowly building this fan base on one platform. I feel like he has been working the comedy scene for years. He was on TV. Like, he's been building this fan base that now has just sort of been activated.

I definitely feel like, and you're right, that he's been putting in the work for years, and he's been a comedian for years and he's worked hard. But I do feel like 2024 has been his breakout year, at least just in terms of how people talk about him. He's being mentioned in the same breath as a lot of these bigger names. And I think a lot more people also want to be on a show. That is like the cool show, whereas like Joe Rogan is a little bit more establishment. It's like Theo Vaughn is like the more interesting one to a lot of people. Although I did notice that he has a lot of kind of semi-reactionary people on there. I mean, he had Tucker Carlson. I think there's a lot more political influencers getting into the space, especially ahead of the election.

Obviously, Nicole Shanahan, JFK's running mate is launching her own sort of wellness environmental podcast. I'm kind of surprised, you know, there was this woman that blew up a couple months ago on TikTok, Risa Tisa. You know, she did this like 50-part audio series on TikTok where she basically told the story of this disastrous relationship she was in. I found myself listening to that entire thing on TikTok and almost like it was a podcast. You will notice in this story, I called it the United Nations of Red Flags. It is so many red flags that, I mean, you would have thought I was colorblind because I ignored all of them. And then, of course, tons of people have tried to replicate it. I think some successfully.

What do you think TikTok's future is? And do you think that it will be moving into the podcast market anytime soon? TikTok did briefly seem to be moving into the podcast market, but then they backed away from it. So I'm not entirely sure why they seemingly backed away from it, but for sure, clips are going to be a thing. And it's obviously on there and exists already. So I think TikTok plays a role. I just don't know if long form necessarily plays there. You would be honest. I'd be curious to hear your perspective if you think so. It's like long form short form. It has to be many, many, many short form. Like mini chapters. Yes, that are strung together in long form. But the individual pieces of content can't be too long form. Right. Thanks so much, Ashley. That's the show. You can watch full episodes of Power User on my YouTube channel at Taylor Lorenz. Power User is produced by Travis Larcuk and Jalani Carter. It's mixed and mastered by Brandon McFarland. Our video producer is Brandon Kiefer. Our executive producers are

Zach Mack and Ashok Kerwa. Power User is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you like the show, give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. We'll be back next week with another episode of Power User. See you then.