TBPN Live - Cloudflare CEO Predicts AI Agents Will Outnumber Humans 1,000-to-1

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

This is our full conversation with Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince.We discuss why AI agents are already generating more web traffic than humans, how the internet must be rebuilt to support billions of autonomous agents, why Cloudflare is betting heavily on young talent in the age of AI, and what the future of inference, infrastructure, and long-running AI agents will look like.TBPN is made possible by:Ramp - https://ramp.comPublic - https://public.comCisco - https://www.cisco.comConsole - https://www.console.comCrowdStrike - https://www.crowdstrike.comFigma - https://www.figma.comMongoDB - https://www.mongodb.comNYSE - https://www.nyse.comRailway - https://railway.comShopify - https://www.shopify.comCodex - http://openAI.com/codexFollow TBPN: https://TBPN.comhttps://x.com/tbpnhttps://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tbpn/id1772360235https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

How are you doing? Gentlemen, good to see you. I'm doing well. Great to see you. Great to see you. What's new in your world? You made some acquisitions. You made an acquisition.

Take us through it. Yeah. So we bought a company called Void Zero, which makes Viet, which is one of the most popular developer platforms that's there. It's just an incredible team. Evan Yu, who's the founder, is just a first-class human being. Someone who our team is super excited to work with. The team that he's assembled is just great.

is just great. And I think that this is increasingly becoming the platform that is being used to power a lot of the agents that are running around around the internet. And a lot of those agents are running on Cloudflare. And so we think it's just a really natural combination. How simple is the synergy? Is it you'll funnel those 130 million users who download VET every month? I think it's 130 million weekly downloads. Weekly, wow. Yeah, it's a lot. into preferring Cloudflare, defaulting to Cloudflare, or is there more synergy under the hood around developer integration, company integration? How are you thinking about this playing out? Yeah, we plan to continue to leave it as an open source project and support it and invest in it that way.

We want to integrate it closely with Cloudflare's developer platform and make sure that Cloudflare is the best place to run any sort of VE project that you have, but it'll work in any of the different platforms as well. And so we just really wanted to make sure that Evan and his team have the support to make sure they could continue to really invest in what was just an incredible platform. And we think that that is going to drive more developers to Cloudflare's workers' platform as well.

What are the headaches for developers these days? I know everyone's concerned about token costs and token budgets. Sometimes that doesn't show up for the developer. It's more like the CEO that's worried about it. But is uptime more difficult to maintain? We've been seeing screenshots of different uptime tracker status pages that have more and more red and yellow on them. Like what's at the top of the stack and how are you hoping? Yeah, you know, I think that you need a different architecture than we've had to build sort of the last generation of applications for what's coming with agents.

If you imagine, you know, there are about 100 million knowledge workers in the United States. If all of those knowledge workers had one agent, which was working on their behalf, that would, and each of those was, each of those agents was running in a container, a traditional container, like something you'd get at an AWS or a Google Cloud. The amount of just CPU resources that would be needed to run just those agents, assuming they've just had one agent per person is about 50% of the total CPU capacity that's generated by all the different CPU manufacturers that are out there today. And that's just the United States knowledge workers.

If you take that to the world, then it's several times, you know, 30 or 40 times the capacity of GPUs and CPUs that are existing today. And so what we really think is that as these agents are creating code, you need a different platform for it. And Cloudflare was built, and Cloudflare workers was built, not on containers as much, but on something called Isolets, which is a much more efficient technology. And so what we're seeing is that as people are building these agents, as they're using them, it's just a much more natural place to be running them. And it's, I think, why you're seeing more and more of the big AI labs have Cloudflare as the preferred target for where their code gets run, you know, Open AI released

a project for their enterprise users a little while ago that, again, is. is targeting us. And we want to make sure that with things like VET as first-class citizens on Cloudflare, that we can help power that future. Because again, it's not going to be kind of the same system that we built with the hyperscalers is going to be something different. And again, I think that we have a really good shot of building that different thing. So can you help me understand more about the problems of like CPU bottlenecks and then maybe some of the solutions? I'm just thinking about like I would think bandwidth would be an issue, obviously But is there a world where we get to some sort of convention around maybe it's the robots.txte or just the user agent and when Googlebot shows up or any other AI system AI agent shows up, you're just delivering a it's almost an MCP server, but you're just delivering something that looks more like a JSON package, something that's a little lighter, little less CPU intensive. Is there a path there to optimization? It feels like we're in the era of like squeeze every ounce of

performance out of everything. But what's actually going to happen here? Where, where, like, are we just screwed or is there an opportunity? No, you know, I think so I think two, two different, different problems. So the first is, if you, if you're, as, as, as you ask these, these different AI systems to perform tasks on your behalf, what, what has to happen behind the scenes, especially those tasks get complicated, is that they need to be coordinated in, in some way. So if you say plan a vacation, for me or something like that, what goes on behind the scenes is that there's coordination there and the best way to make that as efficient as possible. What agents are really good and these various LLMs are really good at is actually writing code. And so that code needs somewhere to live. And the problem is that if that lives in a container, then you've got to bring in an operating system. You've got to bring in all the tooling and everything else. And that's actually extremely heavy weight. And so that's the first place that you've got, both the CPU and a GPU bottleneck that's

there. And so with something like Cloudflare workers and isolates, it's just a much lighter weight system. And so that means that you can have more agents running on the same CPU infrastructure and be able to provide that. And again, I think that's why a lot of these next generation tools are actually built using our platform. You mentioned something else, which is, you know, as these agents go out and interact with the rest of the web, you want to make sure that that is done in the most efficient way. And so if they're pulling down, you know, all of the HTML from a web page. And it's, and those web pages are designed kind of to be consumed by, by humans. There's just a lot of cruft on that that isn't, isn't necessarily, is important. And so some of the things that we're doing are, you know, for those,

those customers of ours that want to make sure their content is consumed by, by agents, want to make sure it's as accessible as possible. We are automatically converting things into markdown, which is a much simpler, uh, system. That, that saves you a ton of tokens, it saves you a ton of processing. It means that your context window can be, you can fit more useful information into a context window. So I think there's a ton of optimizations. And we're helping both on the developer side as well as on the content side, making sure that we can have, have these agents be as powerful as possible and get as much done as possible. John Gruber, total victory. You know who you invented Markdown?

I didn't know. Grubinator. Yeah. No way. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, and I mean, it's one of these things that just, you know, it turned out it was ahead of its time, but it's, it's such a key for making sure that we can take information and make it, you know, as compact as possible. John Gruber created the format for God. It's a funny, funny world we live in. Talk about, it was last week you guys announced that the threshold had been passed around agent versus human traffic. Talk about that moment. Did it happen sooner or later than you. expected, much sooner. I mean, it was, I, at the end of last year, so the end of 2025, I said that I thought that we would pass, it bought traffic, and that's, that's, you know, across the board, so that's

like Google's Crawler, but also, you know, the new agents which are coming out, I thought would pass human traffic by the end of 2027. About three months ago, I revised that based on the traffic that we were seeing to say that it would actually be in the first half of 2027. And so the fact that it actually happened in the first half of 2026 is just, it's just been extraordinary. And it just shows how quickly this is growing. And the real key here is that, I think that if you know, you or I as humans were researching to go buy an additional camera or something, we might visit five websites and do, you know, a little bit of research and some price comparison, you know, you just watch as you use these agents, they have boundless.

attention to be able to just go to maybe 5,000 websites to find exactly what you're looking for the best price, the best delivery, the best service, and everything that's there. And so that's just driving an enormous amount of consumption of the Internet. At the same time, the other thing is happening is that for a long time, since about 2015, the web is kind of plateaued. There were not, there were, there were more websites that were being shut down than were being created during that time. In the last 18 months, though, we're back to the web growing at a rate which is exponential. And what, and it looks sort of similar to what was happening back in the early 2000s in terms of, in terms of growth of the web.

And so I think you're seeing both more sort of consumption of what's online, but you're also seeing more things online. as it goes forward. And so in both of those directions, you know, that's going to continue to just drive, you know, more and more use of the, of the Internet. And I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, going forward, say, five years, that bot traffic will be a thousand times human traffic online. And we've got to make sure that we make the Internet work for that new future. Yeah.

Like every year, we're just going to add another 9 to the 99.99.99% of Internet. that traffic is bots. Do you know what the baseline was? Like pre-AI, were we at like 1% bot traffic? I mean, I've set up sites. It was more, it was more than that. It was about 20% for, for a long time. Yes, and it's, you know, Google was the largest.

And then obviously there's a lot of malicious things that run around online. But that was, that was around what it was for, and it was pretty stable over, you know, the history of Cloudflare at least, so where we could measure it. So since 2010, you know, it was always kind of around that 20% range.

And then it's grown, you know, it's in the last few years it started growing steadily. And then it really accelerated in the first half of 2026. I want to talk about the inference stack, I guess. Like we're seeing two things play out, sort of a bifurcation, like a WWDC, Apple's launching on-device inference that's, it's not going to be frontier, but it's going to be used. for sure on your phone, on a computer. They can obviously go to their private cloud as well. And then you have the new NVL-72 models.

There's stuff in between on a cerebrous chip, fast but expensive. Then there's everything from, oh, it runs on commodity hardware, but it's still pretty big. You need a real desktop for it. And I'm wondering about how you see Cloudflare fitting into that. It would be a logical extension to Cloudflare workers to have inference on the cloudflare. inference on the edge inference in different places like where do you see yourself offering inference if at all yeah well we we it's actually kind of funny back in uh 2022 uh we we issued a press release that there was a um graphics chips company that we were going to partner with uh in order to put

GPUs at the edge of our network. Yeah. And that graphic ship company turned out to be in VINVVIA. And what was amazing was at the time, it was just crickets. Like, nobody cared. Sure. And but we had, and so we sort of did a little of it, but we hadn't really rolled it out broadly. And what was funny was, and then you fast forward two years later, and all of a sudden,

everyone cared. And so we basically just reissued the exact same press release. and now, you know, that's become a pretty, pretty important part of our business. And so today you can run inference at the edge of Cloudflare. And because of the fact that we're, you know, in over 350 cities worldwide, you know, we're within, within milliseconds of the vast majority of the world's population, we've become a very natural place for inference to happen. My working assumption has always been that about 50% of the inference that happens will be on device,

whether that's your phone or your laptop or whatever, but that there needs to be some standard protocol where your phone or your laptop or whatever that local thing is can hand those either long-running tasks or larger tasks off next to the network, and so that would be to us. And then if for some reason you need something, it's more than that, you could hand it back to some centralized data center with more capacity than we may have.

And I think that that's what we're increasingly seeing. I think my assumption was a little bit probably off. I actually think less is going to happen on device today because I think more and more of the tasks are going to be these long-running task where it's not going to be just, you know, what's the temperature in New York today? Instead, it's going to be something like,

help me plan a vacation, go take into account all of these different things, shop for different hotels and different places, plan all the travel between the different locations. Here are the criteria I have. And that might be something that takes, you know, maybe, you know, certainly not going to be seconds. It might be, you know, minutes or hours or days in some cases to run in that.

I feel like you're going to have long-running agents just for Park City snow forecasting and reporting, tracking, like, individual runs, you know, maybe a network of, maybe a network of drones that are at. identifying what's tracked out. Satellite photos, playing it last. Optimizing your routes on the mountain. That's exactly, that's exactly right. Hopefully it snows this year unlike last year.

Yeah. So what are the decisions when you're doing inference on the edge? Because it's sort of a hard pitch to say, I'm gonna shave off 300 milliseconds, 600 milliseconds, when you're talking about a 20 minute workflow or even a 10 second workflow, you're getting me a 3% boost. Is that going to make the difference?

But are you optimistic that there will be sort of like an in-between state where there will be inference that happens and it needs to happen within the request loop under a second and then the latency matters? Yeah, well, I think there are sort of three different buckets, why people are choosing to run inference tasks on Cloudflare. I think the first bucket is exactly what you said. It's just, it's latency. And so, especially for those things that have human and computer

interaction where, where, you know, any delay feels like it's, it hurts you that people are trying to make sure that they can get the best, best performance possible. Yeah, for voice models. I mean, it feels like that has to, yeah, voice models have got to be local. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And so that's, and so, you know, again, there's a case for that. I think the second case is that a lot of times for either privacy or regulatory reasons, people want to keep things as close to where they physically are as possible. And so, you know, I think that a lot of, especially in Europe and otherwise, of places think that, you know, they made mistake with the Internet kind of 1.0 and 2.0 of having everything

go back to Ashburn, Virginia, everything go back to the United States. And so I think that there's a real kind of sovereign desire to keep things local, and that's important. And then I think the third thing is we actually can be oftentimes much more cost effective because of the fact that, you know, we are this, we are a network, and because of how we're interconnected with networks around the world, bandwidth for us is effectively free, and so it's very easy for us to get things onto our network. And because of where we deploy systems, we often are in places where we don't have to pay for the space or the power, which allows us to then

pass those savings on to customers. So it can be significantly more cost-effective to use inference with us than it can be in some other places. That's somewhat counterintuitive. but it's sort of the nature of what we've what we've built and kind of a secret to what's allowed Cloudflare to To deliver as much as we have over time. There's a ton of A ton of debate over data centers how they get built how big they should be what we need the pushback Regulation etc How are you is any of this affecting your business? Are you thinking about how you position? Your footprint in the real world?

How are you processing the evolving discussion around data center construction? Yeah. I mean, so first of all, I mean, we're going to need more data centers. I think a lot of a lot of the discussion is somewhat silliness. I mean, the water consumption, I mean, these are closed-loop systems. I mean, a golf course uses more water than probably all the data centers in the United States over the course of a year. So I think that, I think, you know, there's a lot of kind of silly concerns that are there.

But there are real concerns as well. We've got to make sure that there are efficient ways to get power to these things, that it's not taking power from other systems that the grid can support that. And so I think those are all good considerations. For Cloudflare ourselves, we're a little bit different, where in the case of if you're an AWS or a Google or a SpaceX, you're building one big facility or a handful of very big facilities and putting a ton of machines in that one facility.

CloudFi is different. We have a ton of machines, but we spread them massively all around the world. And oftentimes, we want to go into the places where networks come together. And so those can be some of the oldest data centers in the world. And in any of those facilities, we may not have, we may have only hundreds of machines.

But collectively around the world, we've got what is effectively much larger than any individual. data center, which is out there. So I think we're less impacted from the new builds of data centers. I think we're much more impacted by how do we find our way into the existing data centers. And then how do we make sure that the equipment that we're deploying is as power efficient as possible because we're often given sort of here's the envelope that you have to

fit your equipment in. And we're often guests of whoever the local ISP is or or whoever, you know, partner is that we're working with in the, you know, the, the, you know, the, thousands of buildings that were in all around the world. What's new with Italy? Yeah. Italy and Spain, like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, so you're fighting with Italy, your summer plans,

your summer plans are limited duty. Are limited, yeah, no, no, be no abiza for me or, or multi-coast. No, it's, you know, I think it's interesting, it's been actually kind of puzzling for us. So all of this stems back. So for those who don't know, in both Italy and in Spain, there's been pretty aggressive tactics to come after either me personally or Cloudflare.

And it's all been driven largely by the football leagues, the soccer league in those places. And what they're concerned about is piracy. The thing that's been ironic about it is, like, we don't like piracy on our network either. We don't make any money off of it. It takes bandwidth, it steals resources. And so we have a whole team that's working all the time to shut the pirates down. And yet, you know, the pirates are clever. They find ways to use our system.

And because, you know, huge percentage of the Internet sits behind Cloudflare. You know, there's going to be stuff from time to time that we don't capture. It takes us some time to catch. With leagues everywhere else in the world, so the NBA and NFL and MLB and the Premier League in the UK and others, We work really closely with them to, if they identify a pirate stream for us to, you know, pull that down. Because, again, it costs us money. We don't like it. But for whatever reason, La Liga in Spain and the league in Italy have decided that instead of, instead of partnering with us to take this down, they would sue us instead.

And so, so again, yes, it does cramp some of my summer plans. I want to talk about IPOs, life is a public company. there's a few entrepreneurs that are trying to go public this year. You had a very successful IPO. The stock is up more than 100,000 basis points since you went public. Fantastic run. But advice for... We're putting everything in basis points now because it sounds even better.

I mean, the stock's up 1,000 percent. It's fantastic. But 100,000 basis points sounds even better. 100,000 base points a lot. 100,000. 110,000 basis points. Who's counting? But anyway, what was your process like?

We were talking about the level of float lockups. Like what were the hard decisions? Were there things that we're talking about now with these big IPOs that weren't even on the top 10 of your to-do list? What is important to a successful IPO and then running a public company? Yeah, I think there are a handful of things that are interesting lessons for So first of all, like, I love being a public company. It's, you know, I think that it's interesting, you know, in jurisdictions where, you don't have no fault divorce, spousal homicides are much higher, which is, I think, kind of an analogy to the difference between private market investors and public market investment.

It's really hard to fire your VC. It's hard for your VC's to fire you. So as a result, like, actually it's kind of dysfunctional. Whereas public market, like, I love our investors because if I do something stupid, they call me up and they say, that was stupid. I sold your stock. And then we have a conversation and sometimes they say, oh, actually, that makes sense now and I bought it back, right?

But I think you can have actually a much more honest, much more real conversation. And that's felt actually just a lot healthier than what you see in the time of market. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, there's. everybody that's angel invested in any number of meaningful companies is going to have portfolio companies where you've fully given up on the company and you just try to be nice and yeah, help if you can. But at some point, you're just totally disassociated with the investment.

And you're just like, and that's that's a reality. But yeah, so it's very healthy to be like, yep, I'm disassociated, like moving on. I'll put my energy elsewhere. And in both directions, right? I mean, it's just a better, it's a better, it's a better relationship. And so I like I loved the process of going public. I think the thing that we did, like it was it was an opportunity for us to really kind of retell our story. Like you don't get to reinvent yourself very often, but the process of writing the S-1 was incredibly just an opportunity to sit down and really do it. And we you know really dug in and told the story in a way that to this day we still refer to parts of that that document to sort of explain what is Cloudflare and

and how did we work? I think that the most clever thing that we did, and this was advice that I got from Ryan Smith, from Qualtricks, was he said, you know, he's like, what are you doing about friends and family? And I'm like, we're not going to do it. Because you can take 5% of a IPO and allocate it to friends and family. And I didn't want to get my aunt like over, if the stock went down or something, I didn't have to explain that over Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving dinner. He said, no, no, you're thinking about it wrong. Think about the people who if they, you know, if they owed you a favor, that they could make a meaningful difference in the future of Cloudflare and then offer them to the ability to invest in the IPO. Yeah.

And I was like, is that, like, is that legal? He's like, check with your lawyers, check with the bankers, but the answer is yes. And I was like, some people are going to have, like, conflicts. He said, it doesn't matter. Like, even just the fact you offered it, even if they can't do it, will. will mean that, you know, that, that, that, that, that, that, they'll, they'll always remember that super fondly. And it was incredibly good advice. And we made this crazy list of all of these, you know, people who, you know, who were like, you know, at some point that might be an important relationship

for us. And like, 75% of them said yes. And, and, and they all made, you know, a ton of money as a, as a result of it. And it was, it was, it was one of those kind of, now your aunt It doesn't talk you anymore. Well, yeah, my head doesn't talk. I missed out a 100,000 base-point move. How could you? I am always comforted that we actually, so we priced it $15 a share and it went up to. That's actually the other thing that's interesting.

Everyone, like Bill Gurley and I have fights about this from time to time about IPOs. Like, you have a lot of control over how much the pop is going to be. And we sat with bankers and we were like, listen, we wanted to go up about 20%. And they were like, okay, if you wanted to go up to 20%, you price it right here. So we priced it right at that point, and it closed the first day at 18, which is exactly up 20%. Okay, okay, but just to steal man a little bit, is that, is that a function of your business, not to like be rude or anything, but there are some businesses that are just like mean stocks out of the gate and like they're in some weird thing and there's some froth and like

they have less control or is it always controllable? Well, and part of that was like, did you think the fair value of, of your business was 18% or 20% higher than where you priced it. And so you wanted like you basically wanted the market to sort of reprice and you didn't care about not. Yeah. And if we had priced it at like 13, it would have gone up more.

But the problem, again, you want to play for the long term here. And so again, my fight with Bill is, you know, he says, you know, that you should, you should do some sort of system where you're where you actually, you know, price it at whatever the top prices. The problem with that is if you look at all the companies that, that have done that, so the Air PNBs and, and others, that they basically, you know, that's, that's great for your private market investors. That's great for the VCs.

That's great for any of the founders that are taking money off the table. But you've got to keep running the company. Like, the IPO isn't the end. It might be the end for the VCs, but it's not the end for the operators of the company. And you want to be able to kind of build that relationship and build that over time. And so I think, you know, we worked incredibly hard to be very sort of choosy on who are kind of who we gave allocations to. And we went through every single name on the allocation list. And I think as a result of doing that, you know, if you look at like who our top 10 shareholders are, it's been incredibly stable over, over time.

And there are folks who give us, again, great advice and have been really just really great to work with. So I'm sure that there are times you don't have it, but I was surprised at how the banks have a really good sense of if you price it here, here's what's going to happen. And in our case, it was it was, you know, to the penny. Last question. How are you thinking about long-term planning as a CEO when we're on these exponentials, you know, the example of like agent versus human web traffic? Like, you have, you had like more data than almost anyone on the planet and your prediction was still off, your original prediction was still off by, you know, 18 months, 24 months, something in that range. So how are you thinking about overall business planning when, you know, model capability is increasing and you're just seeing sort of exponentials everywhere? Yeah. I mean, I think a couple of different things. So one, I think we're trying to make bets on, on people who, who can really function in really dynamic environments.

And that for us has been somewhat different than I think a lot of other people. A lot of other people have cut back, for example, on kind of early career hiring. We, you know, Clough there's about 5,000 employees, a little bit less than that now. But we hired 1,111 interns this summer. So straight out of college. And they're really, like they're just killing it. Because they are so native to these tools. And again, I think we've always thought of our job is training the interns.

But this year, like the interns are helping train a lot of us in how to do these things, you know, really well. So I think staying super dynamic. And then, you know, from our perspective, just making sure that we've got optionality going forward. So, you know, it's, it has gotten tougher to get equipment today. Memory prices are through the roof. You know, things are harder. But we've, we just have a team that's always constantly trying to figure. out how to refine that. And then generally, I think we're trying to be a big adopters of AI,

not just in developer land, but also across the entire, the entire business. So we built something called CloudflareOS, which allows, you know, anyone on our finance team, legal team, you know, accounting team finance, anyone that's out there at the company to be able to have access to tools and really figure out how their job gets done. The clever thing that we did to see, it was we actually set up this email address. And initially we told the team that it was this magic AI model. And if they just wrote to the email address and ask it, you know, I have this part of my job that I need to get done.

How do I get that done? It would, you know, sometimes it would ask some more questions, but it would actually give you kind of a response back. What we didn't tell people was actually it was a team of humans behind the scenes that was initially receiving these emails. And then they were using AI systems to kind of. blush things out. But what they were really doing was recording all of the kind of key jobs to be done within the organization. Because you mean, you have to, if you're going to have AI systems that

can help facilitate this, you actually have to record what are the steps that people are doing as a part of that. And so as a result of that, we've been able to see this Cloudflare OS now with the ability to do things like if you're on the sales team and you have to do like an account plan, you know, you can literally just type slash account plan and then describe what it is that you want to do. and it will output that. And that's made our team so much more productive. And again, I think it's giving us the flexibility to be able to respond to, you know, whatever comes next.

Very cool. Final, final question. Are we going to see an exponential increase in the number of interns this summer? Yeah. You see 10,000 interns? I don't know. I mean, we've got to find a place to put them all. And so it's, I mean, our office in Austin, like we've,

It's a big space and awesome. We run out of space there because we have so many interns there. It's, I just, I just think that there, it's, I think a lot of companies are doing this wrong where they're saying, like, we're not going to bet on, on the new people coming out of school because, you know, AI is going to replace them. I mean, these kids know how to use AI better than anyone else. So we're going to bet incredibly heavily on that. And it's, and it's so far it's paying off.

I mean, these, like, I think the person who eventually replaces me might literally be one of the interns to today because they're just so, so, so smart. It's happened before. I mean, I don't know if Sautenadell was an intern, but he has that famous video of him as a product manager demoing Excel. And yeah, nothing like a company man. I remember, I mean, I was on a bunch of calls with Satya before he was, before he was CEO.

And he was, he was just a product manager, you know, at that. So I think just if you can find really great people and be able to move on. That's a go. That's a go. You're the goat as well. You know, whenever you put up a 100,000 basis point move in your stock over just a couple of years, you're in contention for goat, I said. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Always a fantastic time.

Thanks for jumping on.