TBPN Live - Eddy Cue Joins for Apple's 50th, Artemis Launch, Jamie Dimon's Plan, Save Snap Now, SpaceX IPO | Aaron Terrazas, Pratap Ranade, Abhishek Das, Garry Tan, Brannin McBee, Sam Yagan

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're watching TVPN. Today is Wednesday, April 1st, 2026. We are live from the TBPN Ultradem. That's right. The Temple of Technology. The Fortress of Finance. It's the 50th anniversary of Apple. We're very excited.

Starting point is 00:00:15 Eddie Q's joining at 1210. We're going to go through his story. Has to be one of the most elaborate April Fool's jokes. Building a company for 50 years. Yeah. That is incredible. It's a really good bit. It's a hilarious bit.

Starting point is 00:00:27 Just create trillions of dollars in shareholder value. Just kind of as a bit with your voice. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. I can actually hear you really well on this because I have three sets of headphones on now. You can't even tell. You can't even tell that I've got these new AirPod Pro Max. The Pro Max.

Starting point is 00:00:45 AirPod Max. Anyway, we are very excited that Eddie Q is joining. We're also excited about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. Easy use corporate cards, bell pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. We're also excited about the rest of our linear lineup. So let's pull up the linear lineup.

Starting point is 00:00:58 Linear forces the system for modern software development. 70% of enterprise workspaces on linear are using agent. We have Eddie Q at 1210. Gary Tan's coming in. We have Aaron Tarazas using fresh data signaling. He's got fresh data signaling a rebound in small business hiring and labor market activity. Love it. We have from Gusto.

Starting point is 00:01:19 From Gistow. From Arena Physica. Oh, we printed out both. Abishak, DAS. Got a new product turning web agents from monitors into a top. Task Executors and of course Gary Tan. Yeah, as John said, line of code world champion. Yeah, line of code world world champion. I think a lot of people have questions about you know, how much is Gary doing himself? What does he think about the future for YC companies? I think no one really disputes the question that in the vibe coding world the the role of a startup changes the roles change. Everyone's sort of coding pushing code.

Starting point is 00:01:54 Very interesting to hear you know YC's typically you know, you know, gone after teams that are like highly technical does that change in the future? There's a lot to answer and of course we'll be digging into G stack and Gary's list and trying to understand what the goal is there what's real what's a meme he's obviously trolling people he's he's a master of the timeline so that will be fun to dig into but we got to kick it off with this video from NASA administrator and more importantly former TVPN guest Jared Isaacman he says tomorrow we launch at sunset night Artemis 2 waits on the pad, ready to carry astronauts, potentially farther than any

Starting point is 00:02:33 humans have traveled in more than half a century. The next era of exploration. And we have the countdown here right next to John. So it is about four hours and 20 something minutes until the launch starts. You know, they might delay by a few minutes. Who knows, they might scratch entirely. But if things go to plan the official NASA stream, it's up now. But stay with us. And then once we wrap in about three, hours, head over there and watch NASA take you through the final stage of the Artemis II launch. But let's play NASA administrator Jared Isaacsman's video because it's very exciting. This is what I lived for as a young child and what I live for today. It's a lot of space that I'm sending on for the first human movement in more than 15 years.

Starting point is 00:03:23 50 years. You know, a lot of people have been going back and forth, SpaceX versus SLS, I think it's more rockets, the better, more space launch capacity, the better. I want 10 of these companies, I want them all to be successful. Very exciting. Well, we will be following it closely. Throughout the day, we might get updates, we might have breaking news. Apo Structurea says, you can hate SLS for being obsolete, massively late, and overbudget.

Starting point is 00:03:52 I certainly do, but you gotta concede. It looks incredible. And I couldn't agree more. So importantly, some people were joking around saying the space shuttle is launching today. They're not using the space shuttle because they're going farther than they normally go with the space shuttle. And the space shuttle was decommissioned. So then the astronauts will be in a pod on top, a capsule mode. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:04:13 Blake Scholl shares, I'm genuinely excited to see America headed back to the moon, back around the moon. But Artemis is a moon dog. That's a good wombo. That's a really good wombo. Wombos are the new meta. We'll be breaking it down soon. You don't even need to Lorraine it. You don't.

Starting point is 00:04:30 It's just plainly. Lorraine is lore and explains. Yeah. Yeah. Remember that Apollo did not result in durable progress in space. It marked a literal high point from half a century. The cost of space access remained prohibitively high until we had a rebirth of space entrepreneurship. Thank you for showing the way.

Starting point is 00:04:48 SpaceX. Apollo was history's greatest tech demo, the moon landing. This is inspiring. It shows the triumph of ingenuity, science, and reason. but also Apollo led to half a century of stasis and regression. Yeah, complacent. It was fundamentally uneconomic, contributed to creation of a cost-insensitive space agency and supply base, all more concerned with perpetuating their own existence, more concerned with make, work, jobs, than accelerating human progress.

Starting point is 00:05:15 Now we're going back to the mood, essentially the same way we did in 1969. Again, uneconomically, again with central planning. A disposable rocket, no answer to how we create a self-sustaining lunar economy. me, again, we're taking communist approaches in competition with the communists. Communism didn't work for the Russians, and it won't work for America. The sooner we can get done with this moon doggle, the better. There's also reason to be optimistic. This time around, there's a nascent commercially led vision for the moon.

Starting point is 00:05:44 Lunar hotels, mass drivers, data centers in space, helium three. The commercial programs that gave SpaceX an early assist show a different and better path forward. This is where the better future lies, and this is where America should be focused. America should take the moon, and we should take it the same way we took the American West. Let's encourage and protect lunar value creation. How about a homestead act for the moon? Most important, let's stop dumping money. And more importantly, the time of our engineers and scientists on glory project that will never lead to a better future.

Starting point is 00:06:12 It is indeed time for another space race. Last time we fought communism with communism. This time, let's remember what made America great this time. Let's fight communism with capitalism. Yeah, there's some good points in here. I think the flip side of this is that we are in a wildly different position than 1969. In terms of the maturity of this lunar economy, the space ecosystem, we have SpaceX filed for IPO today. You're looking at a trillion dollar company.

Starting point is 00:06:42 It will instantly be one of the largest companies in the world. It already is, but in the public markets when it goes out. And so you have a lot of companies and startups and venture capitalists that are fully ready to commercialize any findings that come out of this and see this as an inspirational moment. And overall, it just feels like 1969, the capital markets, the entrepreneurship, the capitalism was not quite ready for, okay, let's take this to the next step. Let's privatize this. Let's build businesses around this. It was much more of a science experiment that went off into its corner and then was not immediately capitalized on.

Starting point is 00:07:25 But I think this time could be different. At the same time, I do understand what he's saying. Yeah, Ryan and Hunter over Pirate Wires shared. They wrote about this mission in Pirate Wires today. And they shared a quote from Jared last week saying, this time he said the goal is not flags and footprints. This time the goal is to stay. America will never again give up the moon.

Starting point is 00:07:51 So I think generally aligned with, generally aligned with, with what Blake is saying. Tyler, what's your take on this? Yeah, I was just going to say, I think Blake is kind of underestimiting the value of just like vibes. Yeah. Like people have been like pretty blackpilled on the moon. Totally. I think for the last, I mean, basically, since like everything kind of stopped.

Starting point is 00:08:14 Yeah. So if you can just have like a white pill, everyone's like, sure, like maybe it's not a good idea to continually launch these to the moon. They're not economical. But if you can just get one and say, yeah, we actually, we can still do this. Yeah. Also, I mean, it's over budget, but as a percentage of GDP, it has to be a fraction of what we spent in 1969. So on a relative basis, it's a, it's maybe a better investment. And yeah, I do think that there's something that's just inspiring about being able to do something like this and prove that we still got it. I also like from Hunter and Ryan's post, you know, they're dropping the article. It's just moon, right?

Starting point is 00:08:47 It's not the moon. Yes, yes, yes. I like this idea. Yes, we only got one, so we can just say moon. It has its own name. You know, you don't say the California, the Texas, the Florida. You just say moon. You say, you can't Texas, Florida.

Starting point is 00:09:00 Let's watch this video of Neil Armstrong injecting just seconds before his lunar training vehicle crashed. Space cowboy. Space cowboy, true heroism here. This is such a crazy video. I had no idea this happened. Good music, too. What is this? Interstellar?

Starting point is 00:09:17 Yeah? Oh yeah. Like, how did he know? It was not going to go. Oh, it's tipping. Okay, I would definitely know. That would be very obvious that you would want to get out of there at that point. Wow.

Starting point is 00:09:30 And he gets out on the parachute. I wonder how much of that was like planned to be, okay, we're testing the ejector seat or he just knew. Okay, I got a, yeah, why haven't we, why haven't I seen this video? It's been available on the internet for a long time. It just doesn't get a lot of views. Well, it is getting a lot of views today. It was called nickname Fly. bedstead for good reason. It looked like a bed frame and it flew like one too. Yeah, flying that on

Starting point is 00:09:54 Earth, it's not exactly the most aerodynamic vehicle. But Kalshi has a market on when will Artemis II launch? It is soaring. We are now at 89% before April 2nd. So 89% chance it launches today, basically. 92% chance that it launches before April 4th. And there's more information there. So in general, like, even it scratches all the way to May to the end of April, you're still looking at a 95% chance. So everyone is very optimistic that this launch will happen, and we're excited to keep following it. Let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. And let me also tell you about Century. Century shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why

Starting point is 00:10:45 150,000 organizations used to keep their apps working. So, Jamie, Diamond's been on an absolute tear. He is hiring people. He's restating his vision for America. There's an article in the Wall Street Journal here. He has a plan for J.P. Morgan to rescue the American dream. That's a very exciting, exciting idea. And it is in the Wall Street Journal. I think it's in the print edition, maybe today, which I'd love to see. Jamie Diamond is he in here? I don't know. Where are you? Yesterday. Anyway, let's run through Jamie Diamond's plan for America. He's running. I think he should. Jamie Diamond thinks the American Dream is on life support,

Starting point is 00:11:23 and he is planning from J.P. Morgan Chase to step in. The nation's largest bank announced the American Dream Initiative on Tuesday, a commitment from J.P. Morgan to support small businesses, home ownership, access to health care, and other economic priorities that Diamond believes are crucial for the well-being of Americans. The bank already finances all of the above and says it's ready to put more resources into the effort. Diamond, 70 years old and CEO of J.P. Morgan since 2006, has long worried about the future of the American economy and wealth inequality.

Starting point is 00:11:54 More recently, he has warned that the country is sleepwalking into economic stasis, thanks to bad policies and rules that make it hard to invest in new ventures and run companies. I am deeply frustrated by our own policies in America, he said last week at the Hill and Valley Forum, which we covered. We've become like Europe, we're unable to move and change. That's strong words. J.B. Morgan hasn't been slowed, bringing in more profit than any bank in the U.S. history, in U.S. history, but it reaches across Main Street and Wall Street and does better when the whole economy is chugging along. Diamond has a habit of making big commitments. It's a big commitment

Starting point is 00:12:29 having that on. Diamond has a habit of making big commitments in tune with the zeitgeist. Jamie Morgan announced a $1.5 trillion investment platform focused on national security and supply chains last year. Just as the federal government started to invest in critical suppliers, it made a $30 billion racial equity commitment after the murder of George Floyd and a $2.5 trillion climate change plan in 2021. Now, the bank is committing to adding three million new small business customers on top of $7 million today. They want to get to $10. I want to get to $10 million. And it wants to lend them up to $80 billion over the next 10 years through loans and support for community-oriented banks and investment funds. The bank reported $33 billion of loans to small

Starting point is 00:13:13 businesses and other customers at the end of 2025. So they want to expand. significantly. It's just a 30% bump in total number of small businesses, but they want to basically triple the amount of the loan book broadly. The American Dream means you can buy a home, start a business, you can build wealth, and you can afford health care for your family. J.B. Morgan's head of corporate responsibility. Tim Barry said in an interview, we want to bring our capabilities and make that more real to families and customers. Barry, the chief operating officer, said they're helming the new American Dream Initiative and acknowledge that a lot of it isn't really new.

Starting point is 00:13:49 J.B. Morgan has been looking to grow deeper routes in the cities and towns where it does business, rolling out specialty branches focused on community education for years. It has invested big in cities where it has found business-friendly leadership, including Detroit and San Francisco. The initiative and ambitious goals are supposed to jumpstart J.P. Morgan bankers and employees to do more when we think. think about the impact that we've had locally in a place like Detroit, we know that success can be replicated in other places. So they are opening up the pocketbook to spur small business.

Starting point is 00:14:21 Very exciting. In other Jamie Diamond news, he just hired or recently hired Warren Buffett's protege. There's a profile in Barron's by Andy Surwer. J.B. Morgan Chase, CEO, Jamie Diamond, doesn't usually make high profile outside hires for his senior executive team, preferring instead the homegrown variety. That makes Todd Combs, formerly a top investment manager at Berkshire Hathaway, poached, and brought in to head up J.P. Morgan's Chase's new 10 billion strategic investment group, an exception, except that Holmes is hardly a bolt from the blue. I like that. That's a good turn of phrase. Having served on J.P. Morgan's boards since 2016. Okay, so he's a board. board member, so he clearly knows everyone already. He says, I know the company well. Combs tells

Starting point is 00:15:11 Barron's in his first interview as a bank employee. I know everyone from Jamie to the operating community and the next layer of management. I'm well aware of the balance sheet, the excess capital, and how Jamie and the team think and operate. Like the bank's other top executives, Combs, who's been CEO of Berkshire Geico Insurance Unit, is still settling into his new office on the 47th floor of J.P. Morgan's new Manhattan headquarters. I hope you don't mind the warm office. says Combs, a tennis playing Florida native. I don't like the cold, he says. Combs mapped out his new gig, which began in January on a two-column chart.

Starting point is 00:15:46 He sketched on a notepad. Interesting. He's old school, old school. Powerful. He's not creating a second brain. He's just ripping it on a notepad. On the left are five rows of industries such as defense, supply chain, reindustrialization. On the right are there future manifestations, such as,

Starting point is 00:16:06 is defense tech, U.S. semiconductors, respectively. The plan is to invest in everything our country has outsourced and abdicated over recent decades. Combs says, we want to invest in places where the puck is going so that America can control its own future. That means deploying the group's 10 billion into middle market and large companies in U.S. defense, aerospace, healthcare, and energy sectors to help them grow. Recent investments include mining company perpetual resources and defense tech startup Shield AI. Combs, who reports the diamond, will also act to a special advisor to the CEO. Combs' Endeavor is part of the security and resiliency initiative. J.P. Morgan announced in October in which the bank will commit to facilitating $1.5 trillion in

Starting point is 00:16:47 investments for companies deemed critical to the national economic security and resiliency. He joins the initiative's external advisory council chaired by Diamond, which includes Jeff Bezos, Michael Dell, and Condoleezza Rice. What a stacked roster. Combs says investments come to him directly. or through Jamie or other senior bankers, what about the Trump administration? There are times that they'll reach out and look for our help, like Intel, I can imagine.

Starting point is 00:17:14 We want to be a good partner to the government regardless of who's in charge. It's the GOP now. It can be someone else in the future. We're trying to let capitalism send the right signal. We'll look at every opportunity on its own merit. We want an impact and a return. Highly regarded as an investor,

Starting point is 00:17:28 Combs is a boyish-looking, 55. He helped return GEICO, which was burdened with outdated technology and bloated cost to profitability. Berkshire Watchers thought he might play a role in the company's post-Waron Buffett era, either overseeing its multi-billion dollar investment portfolio, or its massive insurance operations, or he could have been up for other high-profile jobs. But why this one?

Starting point is 00:17:49 It's a unique opportunity with both Jamie and the institution and the mission of the job. Combs says, this is critical to the future of the country. You want to find things in life that are big and important that are worth doing and doable. Combs has an anti-bucket list for his new role. I had about 10 or 12 things that I didn't want. The anti-bucket list is sort of underrated. Your anti-bucket list is just never go skydiving. I don't want that to happen.

Starting point is 00:18:18 Never buy a supercar. Never visit 30 countries. Become supercarless. It's just the dumbest thing. He says, Jamie and I would talk every day after he brought this role for me. I didn't want to be measured on VALs. BAR, which stands for value at risk, a statistical measure that quantifies financial risk. I didn't want to get bogged down in bureaucracy.

Starting point is 00:18:38 None of that occurred. In fact, it's better than I could have imagined. I'm sure there will be rough spots that will happen when I make a bad investment, which is invariably going to happen. Was jumping from board member to management awkward? No, he says, I'd like to think that there's an implicit trust factor because of the decade of relationships. I don't need years of random interaction getting up to speed. He talks about riding the subway with Lori Beer, the bank's global chief information officer back to our respective residences the other night and talking about our tech roadmap for a

Starting point is 00:19:06 specific vendor. We're being pitched on a $500 million deal and walking it down the hall to Troy and Doug the co-CEOs of J.P. Morgan's commercial and investment bank. As for Combs' role as a strategic advisor to Diamond, he says that's about looking at the bank's operation from an outside perspective. It's a kind of investor mindset you see you see fail. You're everywhere all the time. Whereas maybe inside a firm you can have an insular view. He didn't talk much about his time at Berkshire. He said, I was back and forth from Omaha to D.C. For six years running Geico, that was a long time.

Starting point is 00:19:39 I'm very proud not to go down that rabbit hole of what we accomplished at Geico. Berkshire is an animal unto itself that is completely unique. I like that he's probably just saying like it's a unique animal, like it's a unique species. But I like to think that he's like it's an absolute animal. And I'm an absolute dog. And I'm an absolute dog. Well, let me tell you about Cisco critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real-time experiences a new value with Cisco and let me also tell you about turbo puffer

Starting point is 00:20:05 Serverless vector in full-text search those first principles on object storage fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable Why is no one talking about Snapchat? Explain Ironic capital. Okay Came out with a Snap now With a well-executed activist campaign Let's see I'm pulling up there does feel like there's a big opportunity with AI, better targeting.

Starting point is 00:20:32 Like, I'm receptive to this pitch, but I want to hear it from Erenic. I know that this is an activist, an activist shareholder. This could be very, very confrontational. Yes, they come out with a website, save snap now.com. You land on the website. They hit you with Snap back to reality. Yep. So taking a fun approach here.

Starting point is 00:20:55 They say Snap has the potential to be a great company and a double AI winner through meaningfully improved operating efficiency and monetization. Irenic has outlined six steps to 7X SNAP's share price to $26 per share. They put together a presentation as well as a letter. I'll kind of read through some of the highlights. They say it's SNAP's crucible moment, AI creates a dual-pronged opportunity for significant cost cuts and accelerated product development. So they go into cost improvements, monetization, governance on the cost side,

Starting point is 00:21:26 they want to spin or shut down specs. I'm sure Evan is not... It's sort of like already happening, right? There was a spin. The spin is seemingly in the works. There were some leaks over the last six months around that. So I would expect that to happen. They want to rationalize cost.

Starting point is 00:21:43 AI can and should replace many existing roles. Now, remember the constant criticism of Snap has been the stock-based comp. If you actually look at it, they, from the kind of rough math we were doing, like, every 10 years, they're basically giving the entire company. company to the team. And so investors, long-term investors, have been very frustrated by that. And it always has been weird because I understand that, like, back in the day when they were competing directly with Twitter and meta and Instagram and Reddit and all these different

Starting point is 00:22:18 upstart, high-growth, social networking companies, I believe the talent war thesis, it makes sense that they would have to probably pay top dollar. But you have to imagine that as the business has stabilized, there are people that would come into the organization that would be happy to just have a salary and just do the work because it's better than working at another company. It's not necessarily like the AI talent war or that, you know, the social media talent war that I'm sure happened, you know, back 10 years ago. It's a different time. So maybe different structure. Yeah. So save snap now is recommending a thousand person riff to get fit and competitive and to empower your highest performers. It's again, if you're, if you're Evan reading empower your highest performers, you're probably thinking like, oh geez, I never, I never thought of it. But yeah, again. They do have 5,261 employees as of late 2025. So this would represent roughly a 20% riff, not block level cuts, but.

Starting point is 00:23:24 More in line with what we're seeing at Oracle, Meta, some other tech companies that are going through a transformation. On monetization, the recommendation is to improve monetization, which I think is a good idea for any business. But they say AI will massively accelerate product development and enhance advertising monetization tools. Again, everyone by this point should be well aware that meta has done a fantastic job in leveraging AI ML to jobs. just make a better and better and better ads product. And they say product letter improvements across users, advertisers, and subscriptions to break out of SNAP's monetization ceiling. Then they say deploy AI properly, monetize SNAP's proprietary AI data sets, and then concentrate

Starting point is 00:24:14 AI partnerships on clear winners like Gemini, OpenAI, and Anthropic. Again, SNAP partnered with perplexity. and it seemed like Snap got a fantastic deal out of that. It was something like a $400 million deal, if I remember correctly. Some of it was stock and perplexity, but there was a huge cash component. And unclear if the other companies mentioned

Starting point is 00:24:43 Gemini Open AI are Anthropic would have been able to match that, how aggressive perplexity was getting. And so it's possible Snap's logic was, hey, we can do this deal with perplexity. And then it's native in our app. It's easy enough to swap it out at a later date. It's like basically take the cash while we can get it. Yeah, I saw this post from Sean Frank that somewhat relates.

Starting point is 00:25:05 He was talking about one of our sponsors, App Levin, which I will tell you about in a second. But he said in less than 12 months, I've spent $2,000, $8702,000 of my own money profitably on Apploven. I don't own the stock. I don't trade the stock. This is the net amount that left my bank account.

Starting point is 00:25:21 And he shares a couple other points, and he says he's spending 17,000. So 2.8 million on App Lovin, clearly like a scalable large platform, spent 17,000 on Pinterest, 266,000 on Reddit. You have to imagine that meta ads are up there. But the question is, like, for a lot of advertisers, Snap has not become this like, oh, sure, maybe you don't get, maybe it's not going to be your number one platform, but it's like in the marketing mix very regularly. and I think a lot of that should start working. Even if the pool isn't super deep, even if you don't have 99% of your customers there, maybe only 20% of your customers are there.

Starting point is 00:26:00 But even if they're there, you should be able to find them. And AI can help that. And so I would expect that if this works, you'd see really solid data from Ridge saying, like, oh, yeah, we're spending on SNAP. Yeah, and they've been experimenting with SNAP as far back as 2018.

Starting point is 00:26:14 I'm sure. When I was hanging out with Sean and Connor back then, they were they were they were getting results on snap but there was a ceiling yeah um so then finally they want to on the governance side commit to investing in safety and capital return use newfound cash and profitability to further invest in privacy safety and parental controls and allocate new cash flow generation to capital return and demonstrate conviction in snap's creation yeah it's interesting on the on the parental control and safety side i don't think i think snap has been able to stay out of the at least Lanier's targets?

Starting point is 00:26:50 Oh, they ended up. Yeah, they settled before it went to trial. Meta and Google fought it. Interesting. And so, yeah, I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I think that they've been trying to sort of like step back from all of that. Yeah, and then on the corporate government side,

Starting point is 00:27:04 giving shareholders a vote can unlock a multiple re-rate through broader index illusion. Yeah. And enabling one vote per Class A share, still preserves SNAP as a founder-controlled companies. Yeah, I think it would probably like 10. voting power or something like that. Anyways, there is a 70-page

Starting point is 00:27:21 slide deck that they put together with all these different recommendations. Well, the market's reacting really positively to this. And I think Evan Spiegel has shared some statements that sort of mirror this, actually.

Starting point is 00:27:37 It seems like there's maybe a little bit more reception than you might expect. The stock's up 14% one day after publishing this piece, says Bose Weinstein. Adam is a rock star in the making so smart, definitely worth a follow, and that's Aurenik cap. Carried, no interest gave some feedback on Irenic. He said, a few critiques feedback.

Starting point is 00:27:58 Daily opens are not equal to time spent on app. Apploven and meta clearly have higher time spent on app, but therefore parity on monetization is flawed. Arguing that Snapchat can hit targeting levels of meta is farciful. The amount of data that meta has on me versus Snapchat is astronomically different. I guess I'm open to being proven wrong since you compare it to Apploven, who I IMO has always used other targeting sources. Three proprietary data slide is a one-time flash and a pan moment. Sure, some companies are selling deranged amount of data,

Starting point is 00:28:27 but that's not lasting MRR, ARR monetization, although it is fair to call them out on it. I like the monetization per user slide. I think my feedback around SNAP's ability to monetize relative to those peers' stands. Literally, screen time is much lower, and you don't have data for targeting the way peers do. And what else was relevant? Calling out the founder's net worth growth was either God-tier, Petty, or Brilliant, or some combination of both fun presentation.

Starting point is 00:28:54 Well, you can go check it out, Arrne Capital has posted. It's Save Snap now. You can listen to our interviews. I think a TBPN slide or quote made it into one of these presentations. Yeah, where was it? I think we're in that. Yeah, it was on the slide. A.I should be an accelerant for Snap's core ads business. So Zuck had said on Q4 earnings, he said, we're also working on merging LLMs with the recommendation systems that power Facebook, Instagram threads, and our ad system. Our world-class recommendation systems are already driving

Starting point is 00:29:27 meaningful growth across our apps and ads business, but we think that the current systems are primitive compared to what will be possible soon. Adam at Apploven said, if we believe that AI technologies are going to be two times more efficacious in five years, just based off of that if we do our job right, our system is going to be two times more predictive for its task. the sequence of problems that it's predicting in five years.

Starting point is 00:29:49 And Evan said, our smart campaign solution suite, including smart targeting and smart budget, uses AI to identify incremental high-value audiences and dynamically allocate spend across objectives, reducing the need for manual setup and ongoing optimization. And then in our interview, they highlighted Evan saying, as you look at glasses in the near term,

Starting point is 00:30:10 I wouldn't expect AI to be a major accelerant. So well since we mentioned them let me tell you about app love and profitable advertising made easy with axon.com. I get access to over one billion daily active users and grow your business today. And let me also tell you about Figma agents meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. It's in beta to already. Yeah. So anyways, closing this out, Irenica clearly thinks that he says specifically Snap is a special asset.

Starting point is 00:30:42 he thinks it has a ton of potential. He's overall positive. He just thinks like, you know, he really wants them to get in the game. And I think that, honestly, a lot of people have felt the same way over the years, but have just ultimately been frustrated because some of these things that seem somewhat straightforward just haven't been done. Okay. I got to go back to the moon.

Starting point is 00:31:03 We're going back to the moon. I'm going back to the moon because Artemis 2 is launching in three hours and 52 minutes and four, three, two, one seconds. Because Brandon Garell wrote the op-ed today in the TBPN newsletter about some of the technology that they're using to document the trip. And it's a very different take, very live streamer coded of us. We only care about the camera equipment that's on board. Obviously, there's not one that goes into it, but it's a fascinating deep type. So let's read through this so that everyone has the update on how you can actually experience this,

Starting point is 00:31:35 because there's a bunch of interesting deals that went into documenting this. So, as you know, today, the NASA Artemis 2 mission will launch, sending the Orion spacecraft carrying a four astronaut crew on a high-energy, free return trajectory to get to the moon and back in about 10 days. It's longer than the Artemis 1 mission, which I was six days. By the way, which went around the moon. Can you imagine the-crued? Can you imagine the stress when you're just, like, being sent straight out into space,

Starting point is 00:32:03 and you know there's a big turn coming up, and it's pretty important that you actually make... Don't miss the off. Yeah, you can't be like texting and like miss the off ramp. If you miss the off ramp, you're going to Saturn. It's over for you. Orion will enter a 24-hour, highly elliptical orbit with an apogee 44,000 miles above the surface of the Earth. For context, the ISS orbits at 200 to 280 miles in altitude. So way, way higher, 100 times higher, 200 times higher.

Starting point is 00:32:32 During the first day, the crew will test critical life support and communication systems. After reaching its apogee, Orion will essentially fall. all backward towards our planet. This will cause the craft to start picking up massive speed. If you scroll down, you'll see that the path is a little fishy. And I think a lot of the tinfoil hack crowd are going to be suspicious about the path that the rocket will be taking because it's fishy. It's fishy if you scroll down. Don't you think that's fishy?

Starting point is 00:32:59 That's a fishy orbit. That's just a fishy orbit. I don't know. I don't want to be too conspiratorial about this stuff. It does look like a fish. It's a fishy orbit. It's fishy. Anyway, as it approaches its perigy, for those who are just listening on audio, it literally

Starting point is 00:33:14 looks like a fish. As it approaches its perigy or the lowest point in its earth orbit, the crew will conduct a systems review, wake up the main engine system, organize the cabin to make sure radiation shielding bags and water supplies are positioned to act as shelter in case of a solar flare, put on their survival suits and strap in. They're locking in. So, Brandon said it's shaped like a figure eight. I think it's very generous.

Starting point is 00:33:37 I think it's shaped like a fish, and I think you should have just said fish. There's a little bit of truth zoning that needs to happen right now, but it's not bad. It is a figure eight. It is elliptical, but I'm going to still say it looks like a fish.

Starting point is 00:33:49 After the burn, the crew will take more than four days to reach the moon. The craft just coasts there. The lunar flyby, where it will orbit the moon at a maximum altitude of 6,000 miles, a minimum altitude of 60 to 70 miles from the surface of the moon.

Starting point is 00:34:02 It is expected to happen Monday, April 6th. It will probably, end up being the farthest humans have ever traveled from Earth due to the high altitude at which they'll orbit the moon. And remember, we still don't know if this is like Apple, another elaborate April Fool's joke. They could, we could get to the countdown here and Jared Isaacman could say April Fool's, but let's continue. Yeah, imagine if that giant rocket, they cut it, it's just cake.

Starting point is 00:34:26 That would be a good one. NASA is essentially aiming for a Netflix quality live stream on the flyby, and this is what the video creators, the content creators, the live streamers, This is what we care about. It will feature 4K UHD video streams, the beam back to Earth with a three-second latency and some additional latency from encoding in terrestrial distribution

Starting point is 00:34:45 using a frontier laser communication terminal that can transmit data at 260 megs a second. The stream will probably be compressed to 1080P for live video, but it will be saved in 4K. The craft has 28 dedicated cameras on board. Externally mounted and astronaut handheld, externally mounted cameras will be on the tip of each of Orion's four.

Starting point is 00:35:05 X-shaped solar arrays and they can rotate, which will allow them to take selfies of Orion with the Earth or the moon in the background. We got selfie sticks in space. Selfie sticks in space. This is sci-fi now. These specific cameras will be heavily modified versions of the GoPro Hero 4 black, which is interesting.

Starting point is 00:35:27 The GoPro Hero 4 is a pretty old camera, but they probably had to start working on this. You know, it's a nine year old project, so they probably locked in the specs a long time ago, and then, of course, they started ruggedizing them. So that camera on the left... Making the GoPro even more rugged. Yeah, basically. They actually have to.

Starting point is 00:35:45 There's a lot of radiation. There's a lot of pressure and obviously no pressure when you're in a vacuum. The, uh, which uses a 12 megapixel CMO sensor and can shoot 4K at 30 frames a second. NASA contracted red wire space. So it's not all communism over here, Blake Scholl. There's some privatized companies. involved in the process. Give us a break.

Starting point is 00:36:07 Let's give it up for government contract. Let's give it up for red wire space. They ruggedize the cameras to protect them from the vacuum, extreme temperatures, and intense radiation of deep space. Some of the external cameras won't even generate imagery for the public. The optical navigation camera, for example, is a high-res monochromatic sensor that feeds image data of the moon and Earth against background stars to Orion's central computer, which runs machine vision algorithms to calculate the cost.

Starting point is 00:36:35 craft's exact position and velocity. They're doing slam in space. Inside Orion, astronauts who use tricked out Nikon Z-9's handheld cameras that can shoot massive AK video at 60 FPS. NASA actually entered into an agreement with Nikon to develop these for Artemis 2. Astronauts on the ISS use unmodified Nikon Z-9s, but because Artemis is going into deep space, the cameras needed to be ruggedized for the conditions out there and power optimized for the huge data transfers the cameras will need to make on the ship, which can be incredibly power intensive. Nikon even wrote a dedicated operating system for the cameras for this. Wow. Finally, NASA partnered with National Geographic to essentially record the footage for a documentary during the mission. The launch is expected no earlier than

Starting point is 00:37:20 6.24 Eastern Time, 324 Pacific Time on NASA's YouTube. They are already broadcasting the live stream. The main program commentary starts at 1250 ET. So they're going to start talking. And that'll be a lot of fun to follow along with. Throughout the course of the mission, NASA will broadcast real-time coverage from Ryan's cameras as bandwidth allows. This will be on the agency's YouTube channel. So they're going to just like really embarrass us with this. Because 10-day live stream, we've been talking about, we will say, oh, we're doing a gig of stream. We're going to interview a bunch of founders from YC, and it's like a four hour, five hour, maybe a six hour show. They're like 10 day, 10 day live stream.

Starting point is 00:38:04 Nice try, TBPN. Yeah. It'll be rough for us. Anyway. I mean, it's still, it's still almost unfathomable, unfathomable the amount of risk that these astronauts are taking on. Yeah. And my thoughts are with them.

Starting point is 00:38:20 For sure. For sure. Let me tell you about gusto, the unified platform for payroll benefits and HR, built to evolve with small and medium-sized businesses. And let me also tell you about vibe.com, where DDC brands, B2C startups, and AI companies advertise on streaming TV, pick channels, target audiences, and measure sales, just like on meta. So the Kit Kat heist, this is the story you all have been waiting for.

Starting point is 00:38:42 Kit Katz, the candy bars, were stolen and in massive quantity. The Wall Street Journal has a story of how the company reacted, how they turned a massive Kit Kat heist into crisis. PR gold. We've seen this before. People were talking about Tucker Carlson having his nicotine pouch shipment stolen and how it sounded like the plot of a new Fast and Furious or Zoomer Fast and Furious movie. Well, something similar happened to Kit Kat and they took advantage of it and made the best out of it. So Kit Kat, of course, is owned by Nestle. But let's dig into what the Wall Street Journal had to say. Just how much are 12 metric tons of stolen Kit Kat bars worth? A lot of promotional gold, it turns.

Starting point is 00:39:25 out, says the Wall Street Journal. It was the brazen chocolate heist heard around the social media world. Oddly? This is the first time I'm hearing. I don't know why, I don't know how I missed this. Had you heard of this before? Yes. You had? Yeah, I've seen this. I've seen this. I literally found out about this in the Wall Street Journal. I don't know why. I only heard about this in the reaction. But anyway, it's an interesting story. So over the weekend, Nestle confirmed that thieves had swiped 413,000 units of kickcats somewhere along their way from a factory in central Italy to Poland. Both chocolate bars and the truck carrying them remain missing, though no one was hurt in the theft, it said. With the Swiss company lost in chocolate, though, it gained back

Starting point is 00:40:12 in a public relations coup, as did multiple other companies quick to hop on the meme bandwagon. We need to pull up some of these memes. I haven't seen any of them. We've always encourage people to have a break with Kick Cat, but it seems thieves have taken the message too literally and made a break with more than 12 metric tons of our chocolate. The company said in a statement, a spokesperson. I don't get it. You have to, they would have had to steal the truck to make a break for it. Yeah, they stole the truck. I mean, it sounds like Fast and the Ferris. It sounds like they stuck it up and you said, get out of the truck. You've got to call a cab. The truck is missing. The truck is missing. They took the truck. They took the truck. Wow,

Starting point is 00:40:51 they took everything. Yes, it really happened. A spokesperson person confirmed that it wasn't an early April 1st joke. Taking their cue from Nestle, other companies soon joined in with some social media spoofing. We would like to share our thoughts and condolences with Kit Kat following their sad news. The account for Domino's Pizza in the UK posted Monday morning. Then it added on a completely unrelated note, we're pleased to announce that we'll be selling a new Kit Kat pizza. It's very silly.

Starting point is 00:41:21 Charlotte FC, the Major League Soccer Club in North Carolina jumped on the same riff a couple of hours later. On an unrelated note, we are happy to share that we will be offering roughly 413,000. I don't know about you, John, but I love when large corporations can just jump in on the fun. It's extremely millennial. This is like, this is my culture is not your costume. If you're not a millennial and you're the one posting this, like, stop. Only a millennial has the right to post jokingly as a corporate account. The discount airline Ryanair, meanwhile, simply posted a cartoon.

Starting point is 00:41:51 of photo of one of its planes with a face in the Jets' mouth are five bitten off Kit Kat bars. Not long ago, most companies would have said little leaving it to law enforcement authorities to disclose such a potentially embarrassing revelation. Now, any bad news is good news, as long as a corporate brand can turn it into a viral meme. I wonder if this is a global crime ring that also came after ALP. The Nicotine. The Tatea Carlson nicotine bouts. Yeah. It's possible. Or it's possible that they're going to try to combine them kind of one plus one equals three type situation where they think that, you know, merging KitKats and nicotine could produce, you know, incremental value.

Starting point is 00:42:31 Who knows? Who knows? Typically, nicotine products are much more economically dense. So a single can of pouches might retail for anywhere between like six and $10, whereas a KitKat might be the same size, but only retail for a dollar. And so stealing a truck full of nicotine products is typically, like 10 times more economically valuable than Kit Katz, but who knows? Maybe the thieves weren't thinking about economic density when they chose to stick up this particular truck. What do you think about this take? It's a masterclass in public relations. Like I agree with your intuition that like, oh, this is not that funny. Like this is sort of just like corporate cringe. It's a little rough. Like some of these, like, I'm not getting belly laughs out of this, but just in terms of corporate

Starting point is 00:43:20 calm strategy, this feels like the best of all possible worlds. Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's like a reasonable thing. Am I entertained? No. Do I think that it was worth doing? Yes. Yes. It's like, it's like the least bad way to deliver this news. Does it make me want to Kit Kat? No. Also no. Yeah, but like you, like I was not thinking about Kit Katz and now I think about Kit Katz. And I'm thinking about that. I just think I think I've never really, I've never really had a Kit Kat and thought, oh, that, that was, that was so good. Yeah. And so now I'm just remembering that why I don't care about kick.

Starting point is 00:43:58 Okay. Okay. I think, I think that, you know, the two options were, you know, put out some sort of like serious, sad statement about how you got owned, basically. I think that could have been funnier. That might have been funnier. It was just, yeah, the. Maybe a CEO viral video would have done the trick that kicked off. This reminds me of that McDonald's burger thing.

Starting point is 00:44:21 They talk about that. All the brands. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, where where does that go? Nowadays, other companies want to profit from potential buzz from a rival's misstep too. After a video of McDonald's CEO, polite bite into a burger went viral this month. Top executives from Burger King Wendy's and Wendy's pounced with similar videos in a lighthearted dig at their competitor. McDonald's said his new burger burger.

Starting point is 00:44:44 the big arch got a sales boost for all the attention too. So it worked. Wait, they got a sales boost from having the CEO. They claim. They claim that getting dunked on, all press is good press. That's their claim. I don't know. It doesn't seem crazy. Like, you know, we found out about the big arch. We talked about the big arch. We sort of processed the value prop at least. Yeah, I keep catching you leaving early. You're like, oh, I got to get home. I got to pick the kids up from Big archer. And I just, I drive by the local McDonald's.

Starting point is 00:45:17 John is there. He's got in the passenger seat, 20 big arches and just plowing through them. I don't think so. I don't think so. It's not for me. I'll stick to the other. Microsoft is in talks with Chevron.

Starting point is 00:45:30 Bring you down. Engine number one over $7 billion Texas power plant. That's good news. Exclusive talks. Okay. And investment fund with Chevron and Engine One over a long-term deal for a giant power plant in West Texas

Starting point is 00:45:41 to provide electricity to a large data center campus. The proposed natural gas fired power plant is projected to cost just $7 billion and initially generate 2,500 megawatts of electricity. 2.5 gigs. That's a huge campus. Wow. That's really, really good. Chevron, Microsoft and Engine 1 have entered into an exclusivity agreement related to a proposed power generation and electricity offtake arrangement. Chevron and Engine 1 had previously discussed some details of their proposed power plant, but not the end user of the electricity, a deal with Microsoft would secure a long-term customer for the plant's output and help finance construction.

Starting point is 00:46:20 The project, which could be up and running before 2030, still requires tax and environmental approvals as well as agreement of commercial terms. Microsoft is a longtime backer of ChatGPTMaker OpenAI is doubling down on constructing data centers. The pause is unpaused. This is fully, we are in unpause mode. Sacha is going all in on AI. Access to reliable baseload power is emerging as a key challenge.

Starting point is 00:46:47 One of the Chevron and engine number one partnership expects to address, given its extensive natural gas production in West Texas and contracts for large turbines. What is LNG doing right now? Is natural gas spiking? It's spiked in November and December, but it is actually fairly low and is down since the start of the geopolitical. conflict in the Middle East. So it at least does, you know, Chase Lockmiller from Crusoe was telling us that the, although the energy markets are somewhat intertwined, oil and natural gas do not move in lockstep because of the production, supply consumption, are you a net exporter, are you a net importer? So the pain at the pump does not always translate into pain at the data

Starting point is 00:47:41 Center, which is, I guess, good for data center operators. The Permian produces so much natural gas, a byproduct of oil, that it often overwhelms pipelines. As a result, some gas has to be burned off because it can't be transported where it's needed, making the region an ideal location for power plants. I believe these are called peaker plants, where the offtake, you know, normally is just getting flared off, just going into the atmosphere. You capture that and turn that into energy there, but then you're stuck with electricity,

Starting point is 00:48:10 maybe at some weird mining plant where there's no houses, so there's no one to power. So the next thing you do is you build the data center there. And that's sort of the that's sort of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, so why Crusoe started mining Bitcoin at piquor plants, at natural gas plants. Yeah. They, you know, had extra natural gas.

Starting point is 00:48:31 They flared it off. Use the, use the, use the very cheap or almost free energy to mine Bitcoin. Well, yeah, and of course, quiche is a wombo for a quirky and niche. Quirky and niche. When you're trying to explain the lore, you say you're Lorraineing something. Quiche Lorraine is the quirky niche lore explained. Apple just removed anything. Okay.

Starting point is 00:48:52 A hundred million dollar vibe coding app that lets anyone build iOS apps with prompts from the app store. Also blocking updates for vibe code and replet. The founder tried to moving code execution to a web view still rejected. The Wald Garden versus AI Builders War is here. So Apple has been saying, according to some reporting in the information, that they don't have anything against vibe coding specifically, but the apps still have to adhere to guidelines. Yeah. And this particular policy has been in place since like the start of the app store. I remember Facebook, you know, dealing with this when they launched their initial mobile app, which was, it was an app, but it would load a lot of HTML.

Starting point is 00:49:37 and it was like, and that was sort of slow, they went back and forth, but there was always a question about like, how much could, how much custom code could Apple, could meta or Facebook at the time, serve within the Facebook app? Like, could you have Farmville exist as its own app on the Facebook mobile app platform like it did in the Facebook desktop app? So when you loaded Facebook on desktop,

Starting point is 00:50:02 you could load Farmville basically as like an eye frame. And the Farmville developers, Zinga, could change FarmVille, ad, upgrades, do whatever they needed to. And that would all be vended through Facebook. And, of course, your Internet browser doesn't care what you're loading. But the App Store is different and has had different terms of service for a very long time. Mostly because Apple's one of their primary pitches to customers is that, hey, we review all the code that will run on your phone. And so we don't want that code to change after we review it. And so we have a process for reviewing it.

Starting point is 00:50:39 And that reduces the risk of bloatware or crypto mining behind the scenes or spam or, you know, viruses, all sorts of different stuff that is the value prop for why people choose to buy iPhones. And so Apple has maintained that for a long time. Let me tell you about phantom cash. Fund your wallet without exchanges or middlemen and spend with the phantom card. And let me also tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with the AI agents. Apple specifically mentioned guideline 2.5, which is the rule anything apparently violated. App should be self-contained in their bundles and may not read or write data outside the designated container area, nor may they download install or execute code, which introduces or changes, features, or functionality of the app, including other apps.

Starting point is 00:51:30 educational apps designed to teach developer allow students to test code may in limited circumstances download code provided that such code is not used for other purposes such apps must make the source code provided by the app completely viewable and editable by the user anything launched on ios and november with no issue and the tool has apparently been used to publish thousands of apps in the app store the yeah you can imagine apple being like this app is pushing so much, so many other apps into our review process. Yeah. We got to make it stop.

Starting point is 00:52:08 The app lets users create and preview vibe code apps on the iPhone, and it raised 11 million at evaluation of 100 million back in September. Apparently, Apple had been blocking updates to the app since December. So it's been basically a full quarter that it was frozen. But clearly, users, are excited about the product, so I hope they can work something out quickly. Well, Global Venture Capital Dollar Volume has incredibly spiked. Look at this chart.

Starting point is 00:52:42 A bunch of interesting things about this chart. Market clearing order inbound. Indeed. It's pretty loud. So Ryan Hoover shares the chart from Crunchbase here. Q1, 2026 was absolutely massive with Global Venture Capital Dollar Volume. spiking from just over $100 billion to almost $300 billion. So a massive, massive growth.

Starting point is 00:53:09 A lot of this is opening eye anthropic, but even if you remove those two rounds, it's still up 40% quarter on quarter. What's interesting to me about this is what has been happening for the last 10 quarters before Q1, 2026? Like it's felt like a funding boom. It felt like we had the chat chippy T moment at the end of 2022. 2023 was the start of like, okay, let's, you know, lick the wounds from the ZERP era and start ramping up venture capital. We saw new funds raised.

Starting point is 00:53:44 We saw more deployment. Tons of up rounds were always hitting the gong. And yet that the prior trend line was pretty flat prior to Q1, 26. it feels like venture is still in this like K-shaped dynamic. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, the answer here is that this is not venture at this point. Yeah. That's a big factor, right?

Starting point is 00:54:08 You have the biggest companies in the world investing tens of billions of dollars into single companies. Yeah. And so, of course, the chart looks insane because this is the largest, you know, the largest private financing ever. Yeah. Is Julie Black getting the scoop of the day? She says new funding, new model, new policy push.

Starting point is 00:54:29 I think it's a scoop. She says exclusive, exclusive. Open AI preps policy push. She says, Open AI will begin releasing a series of policy proposals next week, meant to spark conversation about how to rethink the social contract. It's going to be an interesting year. She asked the question. Is Open AI's chief futurist,

Starting point is 00:54:58 prepping for a major breakthrough or just another hype cycle. And you can go and read this on Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair, the tech publication? Yes. I mean, Julie, it covers tech. Very well. Very, very well. There's a lot of good stuff.

Starting point is 00:55:12 Metab over at OpenAI says, we are excited to share a new paper solving three further problems due to Aidos. In each case, the solution was found by an internal model at OpenAI. Each proof is short and elegant, and the paper is available here. So there's a breakthrough for you. Yeah, Prins asked, would you be able to comment on the delta between the unreleased model and GPT 5.4 Pro? I'm reading correctly. You tried fewer than 10 identical prompts for each of the three problems with GPT 5.4 Pro and the GPT 5.4 Pro got the first problem correct twice, the result, which you link in the paper, plus one other similar solution.

Starting point is 00:55:51 The third problem corrected twice. Interesting. I saw another interesting paper from Google that apparently just repeating the prompt twice improves LLM performance. Did you see this, Tyler? So if you say like, you are Shakespeare, write me a poem because of the way the tokenization works, like, when it first processes that you, it doesn't know, it doesn't, it starts thinking and it doesn't necessarily. know what's coming, right? It doesn't know that Shakespeare's coming. So if you just repeat the prompt, the exact prompt twice, it improves performance on a bunch of different benchmarks. And it's this funny paper because it's like something that anyone could just do at home. It's like the classic like prompt engineering thing. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean,

Starting point is 00:56:38 you would think that it wouldn't work, right? Because like still like, you know, you like attend to all the previous tokens at the same time, right? This is the whole thing. Yeah, you think so. I don't know. Yeah. But I remember like early on, there was only things where, yeah, you would prompt like, you are Shakespeare, write me a poem. And it'd be a way bare poem than if you said right before them, right? Or like pretend that you're Terrence Tao when you solve this math problem. Yeah. Way better, right?

Starting point is 00:56:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. In the training data, you know, whatever. It just knows to go down that path as opposed to like the other paths of like, oh, it doesn't pull any April Fool's jokes because it's not being an April Fool's jokester. Yeah, there's these, you know, basins or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you get like the personality basin where you can get the model to act like a certain thing and it does much better on that. At the same time, I think this, I think this paper was specifically on like vanilla LLLN.

Starting point is 00:57:23 And I think reasoning solves that even more because you're basically repeating the prompt a bunch through you know unpacking it, compressing it, doing whatever you need to do to actually set the LLM up for success in answering the question. And so it might sort of hydrate through that process into something that yields those results. But interesting how simple some of these hacks are. Well, in biggest number of news yesterday, Open AI announced a closing of their latest funding around with 122 billion yeah hit the hit the gong it would be would be an honor John boom probably probably the largest gong hit 120 hits 122 hits oh 1202 they upsize the round remember they did upsize

Starting point is 00:58:13 yeah so take him hold out some highlights uh post money evaluation of 852 billion and video remains the foundation of our infrastructure our training fleet and the majority of our inference stacked can continue to run on Nvidia GPUs. We are now generating $2 billion in revenue per month, raising over $3 billion from individual investors. Chad Chb-T is the overwhelming leader in consumer AI with more than 900 million weekly actives and over 50 million subscribers. Our ads pilot reach more than $100 million in ARR in under six weeks.

Starting point is 00:58:44 Momentum is just as strong on the enterprise side, which now makes up more than 40% of our revenue and is on track to reach parity with consumer by the end of 2026. Codex now serves over 2 million weekly active users of 5X in the past three months with usage growing more than 70% month every month. And they talk about the vision for a unified AI super app, one app that lets you basically access every product that Open AI is making. So chat, Chapti, Codex browsing, and other gentic capabilities. Yeah. I'm very excited about laying. thinking codex to chat GPT in some way because right now there's really I mean you can sort of set reminders but there's very little that you can do if your question requires building some sort of like small system like the the the the textbook case that I'm thinking of is like if I want to be if I if I if I want like a deep research report of you know how the Artemis mission did when it's when it when when when the astronauts land. I'm probably going to see that on

Starting point is 00:59:59 social media but what about just automatically letting me know one year from today remind me that the Artemis three mission is coming give me you know an estimated are we on track pull all the news that I probably won't be following that closely because I'm not like a daily consumer of space news but I might be interested later. There's all these different things where you could track things, but you need to build something that just sort of runs. Entering a new era. Our astronauts are now Twitch Live Dreamers.

Starting point is 01:00:32 Are they on Twitch? No. Okay. YouTube. It would be fun to be fun to get over on Twitch. Yeah. There's some other news. Apparently new iPhones are being packed into the suits of the Artemis 2 crew.

Starting point is 01:00:47 Owen Spark says there's something very familiar about the iPhone look that will make the moon feel accessible. We are going to see the lunar surface through the same lens we used to capture our own lives every day. Oh, that's cool. Take some phones. There's an article in the Wall Street Journal about smartphone proves too big for most. We were debating this earlier, and I'd like everyone else to chime in, too. The original iPhone launched in 2007 had what was considered the largest smartphone screen at the time, 3.5 inches. The biggest iPhone now is more than double the size of the original at 6.9.

Starting point is 01:01:22 inches, or is, yeah, is now more than double. Wow. In 2019, in, uh, the 2019 introduction of Samsung's Galaxy Z fold, introduced foldable devices to the masses, opening up like a wallet has a 7.3 inch display and Samsung Galaxy Z trifold in 2026, when fully opened unfurals to roughly the size of an iPad. Can, uh, and, uh, and the, the, the journalists in the Wall Street Journal asked the question, Can a smartphone be too big? Tyler, what do you think? Yeah, I'm in favor of a smaller phone. Okay.

Starting point is 01:01:59 This is 16 Pro. 16. It's not Mac. But it's not Max. It's the normal one. And why don't you want a bigger phone? It's just too much. What if you're on a plane and you want to pull it out and watch a movie or something?

Starting point is 01:02:12 Yeah, but I feel like if I want a bigger screen, I have a laptop. Okay. It works great. Yeah. But you don't always have the laptop with you. Or, I mean, you always have in your backpack? What if you're like on a train? You've never thought about getting an iPad with a cellular connection and then maybe like a strap on the back that you could hold and have and be able to hold it up to your head and use it like a normal phone.

Starting point is 01:02:33 I was I was seriously considering the iPad mini for a while just as an everyday carry phone. You could do it. I don't know if you can get a phone number on it. Is that even going to fit in my pocket? It would fit in my pocket I tested. Does it fit in your suit pocket though? It would definitely fit in the suit pocket. You should get all of your suits custom tailored so that you could. can fit an iPad mini in here. I don't know. The phone's

Starting point is 01:02:55 confirmed. The chat confirmed. ZYT says is on Twitch. They're re-streaming. Let me tell you about restream. One live stream. 30 plus destinations. If you want to multi-stream NASA, go to restream.com. Hopefully they're on re-stream. Ryan Peterson Yeah, what do you say? Is joking around. He says, Elon filed for an IPO on April Fool's Day. and apparently they

Starting point is 01:03:23 filed last night so off by just a little bit according to I Love Love but yeah on pace for June on pace for the kind of June listing

Starting point is 01:03:35 June listing okay yeah we'll have to track that that will be that will be fun I think a lot of people are really excited should be good Austin Larson says our team at Google is releasing more details

Starting point is 01:03:49 on the recent NPM Axio supply chain attack. Notably, we now attribute this activity to UNC 1069, a financially motivated North Korean nexus threat actor active since at least 2018. We made this attribution based on their use of Wave Shaper v2, an updated backdoor previously used by the group, alongside clear overlaps in C2 infrastructure. Check the blog. And they wrote more about it on cloud.com. And yeah, we also have an expert from CrowdStrake coming on the show tomorrow. Adam Myers is going to come on and help us break it down, which we're very excited for. In a note to staff this morning shared with Max Tani over at Summit 4, Business Insider said it is giving out a new quarterly AI award for best use of AI at the company.

Starting point is 01:04:45 The winner gets $400. dollars. As soon as we talked about this this morning, Tyler asked us to create a similar award, seemingly signaling that he's quite confident. You think you can win this one, Tyler? Take it home every quarter. I'm feeling pretty confident right now. We'll see. You know, once the incentive goes out, right? You know, show me the incentive. I'll show you the outcome. We're going to have a lot of people in office gun for this. I still do want to run that experiment of like the race to see the true leaderboard of how long it takes everyone

Starting point is 01:05:18 at our company to generate 10,000 lines of code as fast as possible. Because there's a bunch of shortcuts that you can take. Tyler thinks he can do it in like five seconds. But for other people, it's going to be a lot of copy-paste. It's going to be figuring out how to open a text editor. Like everyone's on a different learning curve here. So I think the results would be interesting. Yes, I'm feeling pretty good about my odds.

Starting point is 01:05:37 Okay. Yeah. Well, head over to business. Anyways, I think this is smart. Yeah. I would say that maybe add a zero to the number. but given that the I is a massive, massive company, right? Matthias Daffner knows that money doesn't grow on trees, okay?

Starting point is 01:05:56 He's running that thing as a real business. He's a businessman. Rebecca Torrance is scooping. Scooping. Scoop is at Valoratomics, a nuclear energy startup, backed by Palmer Lucky. PL backed by PL himself has raised $450 million at a $2 billion valuation. There's no investor named here, so that's still unclear, but Isaiah and the Valar team have been on a tear. They're talking about building clusters of small nuclear reactors to power data centers.

Starting point is 01:06:32 And they got some access to some government programs and government resources, and it seems like there's been a bunch of blockers that have been knocked down one after another. He's been on an absolute tear. We'd love to have them back on the show to chat more. Augustus Dorico is having fun with it. Ooh-ah, uh-uh, I'm going to invest in another energy company besides Valor Atomics for bu-bah-bo-ba-bo-ba-bo-ba reasons. That's what you sound like. Do you see how far they've come?

Starting point is 01:07:01 Do you understand that they will make the world's energy? I love that he's pumping up his buddy. Always riding with the crew. Anyway, let me tell you about Vanta, automate compliance and security. Vanta is the leading AI trust. management platform. And let me also tell you about public.com investing for those to take it seriously. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service. In other nuclear news, apparently Utah is going nuclear to keep ski runs cold for the 2034 winter

Starting point is 01:07:31 game. How does that work? Explain that. State says new, this is in town lift.com. Okay. State says neutron based atmospheric technology could lower ski run surface temperatures by up to 20 degrees and offset drought impacts through enhanced snowpack retention. Interesting because when you've given your case for Alaska historically, you've talked about how with abundant nuclear energy, you could take an otherwise cold area

Starting point is 01:07:56 and just heat up. But they're thinking about cooling things down. State officials confirm Wednesday that Utah has entered a $1.2 billion agreement with a Vienna-based energy consortium to install three micro-nuclear reactors along the Washach, Wassock Mountain Range as part of an unprecedented effort to stabilize snow conditions on Utah ski slopes ahead of the 2034 Olympic Games.

Starting point is 01:08:21 The project designated the Wassoc atmospheric retention and mitigation initiative, or Warmy, could make Utah the first state in the nation to deploy nuclear power to atmospheric cooling infrastructure at altitude. Utah is not going to sit back and let the climate dictate the terms of our 2034 legacy. said a spokesperson for the governor's office of economic opportunity, who confirmed the project has received preliminary approval under SB 114, the legislature's infrastructure acceleration statute, which removes local government approval authority over projects designated as state economic priorities. So apparently Juniper Peak selected as the first nuclear test site. I'm sure everyone at Juniper Peak will be thrilled.

Starting point is 01:09:13 about being able to ski around a nuclear test site. The three microreactors are proposed at elevations above 9,000 feet in what project documents describe as thermally neutral subterranean containment pods. I like the sound of that. Designed to blend with the natural terrain. So, anyways. Well, we have some other news.

Starting point is 01:09:38 Will DePue. I think he won April Fool's with the joke that he, He says he is joining Deepseek. He says, like many of my friends, I set a goal at the start of 2026 to become more Chinese this year, and I plan to fully follow through on it. After nearly three years at OpenAI, I have decided to leave and pursue new opportunities after much deliberation. I'm thrilled to announce that effective today, I'll be relocating to Hongzhou to join Deepseek,

Starting point is 01:10:02 artificial intelligence, basic technology research co-LTD, dedicated to building Chinese-style AGI. I simply couldn't pass up the opportunity to become a billionaire in our, in RMB. He had a lot of fun with it. We had fun putting up a card and we're big fans of Will DePue. Well, without further ado, we have Eddie Q in the Restream waiting room. Let's bring him in to the TVP and Ultraldome. Eddie, how are you doing? What's going on? It's great finally to be here. Thank you so much. I wanted to be on this show and I've got to tell you, I've gotten more text messages from friends about being on here, including my kids, than probably anything I've ever done.

Starting point is 01:10:37 So it's great for you to have me. That's amazing. And what a, and what a, what, what, what, What a special moment. What an amazing time. I would love to just start with some reflection. I want to hear particularly about your first decade at Apple. What was that like leading, you know, what led you to the company? What were some of the first projects you worked on? Sort of take us through some of the early history. Yeah, I was lucky. I was a junior in high school when the Apple 2 was out. And I wanted to be an architect. And when I discovered a computer, I realized I wanted to be a programmer and engineer. And I said there's two things I want to do.

Starting point is 01:11:19 I want to work at Apple and I want to meet Steve Jobs. Wow. And dreams come true. Here I am 38 years later at Apple. I came in as a programmer and was working on Hypercard and sort of the precursor to blue links with lines underneath linking. And I've been done so many things here. at Apple, I've had an amazing team and continue to have the, I'm working with the best people in the world at what they do. Yeah. What was the lore of Steve Jobs like when you first sort of

Starting point is 01:11:51 heard about him? Because, you know, my generation knows like the iPhone keynote. There's videos online. There's interviews. There's whole books. There's multiple books written. But what was your experience learning? What drew you to Steve early on in your career? I just think it's, it's the innovation of creating these products that let people do amazing things. And I felt that way when I was using the product, the attention to detail of those products, there was a connection that you could just feel. And so it was more than just what you could see.

Starting point is 01:12:29 And then it let me do things that I couldn't imagine doing before. And I think that's something that we've continued over our 50 years. Yeah. Can you talk about the launch of the, of the original Apple online store. I feel like a lot of people assume that this always existed. No, it was a Herculean effort, I'm sure.

Starting point is 01:12:49 What was the inspiration? What was the backdrop there? What was the mood like as you entered into that market? Yeah, it was a crazy time because people forget, but in those times we sold all of our computers through channels like Comp USA and local computer stores. And the idea of building an online store, in selling direct, there were a lot of people inside of Apple even that felt like if we did that,

Starting point is 01:13:16 the channel's going to walk on us and they're going to stop selling. And Steve and we wanted to move forward and be able to do custom configurations so people could order exactly what they wanted. And we thought it was something that customers, you know, it was just beginning, but it was something that customers really wanted. And Steve and I and a small team worked on it and built. and launched at the same time that one of our, you know, best products we've ever done was the IMAQ, the Bondi blue one with the clear.

Starting point is 01:13:47 And so we launched the store and the Bondi Blue IMac at the same time. And I remember at the end of the day, we were wondering, you know, Steve, I came by his office and he's like, well, how did we do on the first day? And we had sold a million dollars worth of IMAX, and we were high-fiving each other and going, this is amazing. How did you drive people to the, did you just have? have Apple.com, were people already typing in Apple.com? Like, how do you tell people that a website is launching before you can go viral on social media or do live interviews on, you know, how do you

Starting point is 01:14:21 promote this? Yeah, we were lucky and then we had Apple.com already. And so some people were coming from that. And so it was, that part was a little bit easier. And in those days, you relied a lot on press interviews and print. Sure. And so we did a lot of, you know, you'd want to be on the cover of, a magazine and the front page of the newspaper. And so we had all of that pretty well. And I think our design, when we did this, it was called Good, Better Best. You could buy different configs and change them.

Starting point is 01:14:50 But our design for shopping for a computer and a Mac at that time was something no one had ever seen. It had all of the things that we cared about. The simplicity, really easy to check out, easy to buy, all of the specs and the questions you would have. Things that were difficult when you went to other sites, I thought we did a great job and it really resonated with customers. Yeah. Can you help me understand, like the services division of Apple is massive. It's a huge growth engine. There's so many interesting pieces of that. I want to go into a lot of those. But when was the first time in your career that you realized that there was something that you could sell or actually turn into a business line that was not.

Starting point is 01:15:38 a physical product and would live in this services category. When did services even become like a division or concept or an opportunity at Apple? Yeah, I think we started as a hobby. You know, there wasn't a lot there. It was very early days of the internet and doing things like email and things like storage in the cloud. But it was very, very early.

Starting point is 01:16:00 The thing that was a big change for us was really music. And it was iPod plus iTunes. And that was something that was, it truly revolutionized music, and it really gave us a whole different perspective of what services can do when you take the hardware product, in a sense, the operating system and the software and the services, and you tie them together, which is something I think we do better than anyone. It really showcased when we did iPod plus iTunes. And so all of a sudden, we did that. Not only did we do it for the Mac, but we also did it for Windows. Yeah. And so it opened Apple to a whole new ecosystem of customers that had never used our products

Starting point is 01:16:44 before, but we're using iTunes and iPod for the first time. That was my first Apple experience was iTunes and iPod on a Windows PC. Yeah. And now I have 25 hours. My first is I was so, I was so loyal to Apple product that I refused to get a, like a PC for gaming. And so I worked, I probably refs like, 300 soccer games, like so absurd amount to get the maxed out at MacBook Pro at the time. That's amazing.

Starting point is 01:17:11 Because I was just so, so loyal that I was like, I'm not, I've got to, if I'm going to play video games, I'm going to do it on Mac. Yeah, it's great. You know, when we launched iTunes on Windows, I remember we did a poster and Steve called it on the presentation. It was like, hell froze over. What was actually getting iTunes off the ground like? And how is it different than the other just motions that Apple had developed?

Starting point is 01:17:39 Because it's not only a software product, but it's deeply linked to rights holders and agencies and musicians. And you have to get so many different groups. It feels much more permissioned than just building a computer and selling it. Of course, you need manufacturers and you need a lot of people on board to build a computer. But it's a very different go-to-market or building motion. Like, how was that different? Yeah, it was painful because I think there were three pieces. You had us, you had the label, and you had the artist.

Starting point is 01:18:14 We were really good with artists, which is something we've always been about the creators. And I think when you look at all the things that we've done, the two primary people that we focus on and think about are people that are the end customers that are using it and the creators that are creating all these incredible products. So we had a good relationship with musicians at the time, but we really didn't have any relationship with labels. And ultimately, they did control the environment. And at the time, they had a different perspective. You know, it was really the beginning of Napster and piracy. And instead of thinking about, you know, how to move forward into a future, their view was to lock things down and really stop it. And as you know, when you have something that's better like that, there is no stopping.

Starting point is 01:19:02 it. And so we went to the labels and we had this idea of selling songs at 99 cents and they kind of told us to go pound sand. They weren't really interested in us at all. And their idea was they were going to build some music services. So there were five or six major labels and they built two music services and we told them like what you guys are doing is not going to work. They had different pricing for each song. They had different rules. Sometimes you could buy. So they would like price a hit higher than like some random song on an album? Yeah. I mean, it was. was all over the map. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:19:34 And part of the pushback against like just $99 a song. 99 cents. I mean, is like, you know, typical Apple style. It's just like, let's just make it simple, easy to understand. But was their pushback, like kind of concern that people, you know, hey, we're used to getting people to just buy an entire album and maybe what's going to happen if people just buy, you know, a song here or there? Yeah, the problem was whether you sold it at a dollar. 29 or 79 cents that wasn't going to change that.

Starting point is 01:20:05 The key to, there were two keys to 99 cents that we really believed in and people didn't see. There were two primary things. Number one is at night when the price is 99 cents and it's consistent, you never have to think about price. And so you would preview a song, decide whether you like it or not. And if you did, you bought. And so there was never any transaction, a billing transaction that you had to think about.

Starting point is 01:20:30 Because you knew it was 99 cents. It's not a lot of money at the time, and it was really easy to do. The second thing was that people could never do that because at 99 cents, if you're charging a credit card, you would lose money. Because credit cards have a fixed fee, and they have a percentage that you pay. Well, the fixed fee and the percentage on a 99-cent song was like a quarter. And the vast majority of the money went to the labels. So every time we'd sell a song, we would lose money. And so nobody wanted to do that, and so no other service did that.

Starting point is 01:21:05 What we decided to do is, as we were building this, and I remember it was a huge discussion because we would lose a ton of money, obviously, if you're losing on every song. We said, look, this thing is amazing. You're not going to buy just one song. You're going to buy a lot of songs when you go on there. And when you do that, instead of closing the transaction on every single one, why don't we just combine them over a period of time? So let's keep the transaction open for a period of time.

Starting point is 01:21:33 Let's call it 24 hours or 8 hours. And everything you buy, we're just going to give you, and then we're going to charge you at the end. And so therefore, that's exactly what happened. Very few transactions were just 99 cents. Most of the transactions were multiple dollars, and the fixed fee didn't matter. Interesting. How important was it to position iTunes as sort of a step up from the status quo? from like the Napster era and a positive because I feel like anytime the economics of an industry

Starting point is 01:22:06 change, there's natural uncertainty from artists. And iTunes did represent a change in the economic structure, but it was such a great countervailing force. How, how, what were discussions like at that time about positioning the, the, the economic opportunity that, uh, that artists would have in the new regime. Yeah, I think we wanted, during that time, the music business was cratering. Okay. From an economic point of view. Yeah. And our, our feeling has always been, the vast majority of people want to do the right thing. Yeah. And they want to pay artists. Yeah. And so, but what they don't want is they don't want to be forced into something that doesn't make any sense or isn't really friendly or isn't the right way to do it. And so we were, that's part of the 99 cents. It was part of like,

Starting point is 01:22:57 Like, you can, in those times you were burning a lot of CDs. They had limitations on the number of burns. We didn't want any limitations because that's not something a customer would understand. And so our feeling around this was if you let us do this, you're going to grow again, as opposed to cratering. And I remember Steve asked me once, before we had lunch, he says, well, you know, what is success around this? And I said, you know, honestly, I don't know. You know, I'll go ask. And so I went into Universal Music and I asked them, you know, what's success for you guys in this business?

Starting point is 01:23:31 And they said, well, if you could sell, you know, a million songs in a month any time in the first six months, that's success for us. So I came back. I said, okay, that's the goal then. We sold a million songs in the first six days. That's amazing. I love it. That's great. Yeah, so it's like that that's what we, you know, obviously it surpassed even our expectation,

Starting point is 01:23:57 but it was an example of if you give people the right way, people are willing to pay, but it has to be done well. So talk about the shift to subscription because it feels like a much more natural experience for all the Apple service that I subscribe to. What was the thinking, how long, like what were the hurdles along the way to get to the, the current situation with Apple TV Plus where you can consume everything. Was this just a market dynamic? Was it something that you saw in the future early on? And it was more of how do we get there smoothly? What was the process? Yeah, the key to this is it's hard to remember this now because

Starting point is 01:24:41 we're so used to it. But it's having internet connectivity anywhere you are. Sure. And all the time. And pretty much almost, it's almost impossible now to be anywhere and not have, you know, actually fast internet. Yeah. And so that allowed a whole different thing because before that you didn't have, one, you either didn't have it or two, you were paying by usage in a sense. So you wanted to limit the amount that you actually used. And so things like downloading and keeping things on device all the time was really important. And when you have unlimited in a sense internet access or a network access, then you can provide all these capabilities and not have to worry about whether you have it downloaded or not.

Starting point is 01:25:27 It's now invisible to you. You don't even think about it. Most of the time, we put things on device just to cache them or whatever, but you don't need to worry about whether it's on your device or not. Yeah. We have a question from the chat. It's a bit random. But I'd love to know your favorite keynote moment throughout your career.

Starting point is 01:25:47 That's great. I'll say, look, there are two. There's a personal one, which was the first one when we launched the IMAQ and the Apple store, because that was the beginning of turning Apple around. And it was a big moment for Apple. It's hard for people to imagine this, but Apple was going bankrupt at that time. And Steve came back, and that moment was the beginning of a change where at least we knew now that we weren't going to go bankrupt. And so it really gave us life.

Starting point is 01:26:17 And so it was an incredible moment. And I remember going backstage with Steve after it was done and hugging, actually, because it had gone so well and we knew that was a big step. The second one, and honestly now in hindsight, I completely underestimated it was the iPhone launch. It's the only time I made my wife and my kids, my two kids come to the event. They were eight years old. And I was like, this is a historic moment because I had had the ability of using the iPhone for a few months before we launched and played with it. And it was just amazing to, it's the coolest best thing I had ever seen in the world.

Starting point is 01:27:02 And so I thought, this is going to be amazing. Now, I completely underestimated it because now you look at it and go, it's like, I don't even know what the world is like. What would you do without an iPhone? Yeah. What lessons from Steve or kind of memories do you find yourself coming back to the most in the present day of Apple? Well, I think something that people take for granted, but nobody worked harder than Steve. You know, and these things don't come easy, and he was the hardest worker of anybody I know. How did that manifest?

Starting point is 01:27:39 Like long hours? Just de-focus? Yeah. It's focused and long hours. What it was was there are only two things that mattered to Steve. And I think when people ask me, what's the difference between Tim and Steve? The reality is, that's not the right question. The question is, what's the same things between Tim and Steve?

Starting point is 01:27:58 And their work ethic, they worked harder than anybody. They were completely focused on two things. They're Apple and their family. Those are the only two things that mattered. And the third thing was the attention to the products themselves. It was about the products and what we delivered to customers. Believe it or not, not the financial results. That was a secondary function that you obviously needed to keep going,

Starting point is 01:28:23 but it was never the primary thing. And so those three things are something that I still take to heart. And I feel that's what I try to do and how I feel. Can we talk about F1? I love that there's a movie and also you can watch the actual races. This feels deliberate. What's the strategy? It seems to make a ton of sense, but how long has this been cooking?

Starting point is 01:28:51 What's the thought process? I remember it must have been last year John had talked about this on the show. Wanting this to happen to see it come together the way it has is amazing. Yeah, and it seems like soccer or football sort of faced a similar strategy, but I'm very interested in how you see different media properties connect together. Yeah, look, the F1 thing is personal. I've been an F1 fan for a long time. I learned about F1 by going to the library

Starting point is 01:29:20 and reading magazines because, believe it or not, F1, just wasn't televised at all in the United States. So you didn't know anything about it. So I knew a lot about it. Stefano, who's the CEO of Formula One, is somebody who was at Ferrari and then later on at Lamborghini,

Starting point is 01:29:36 and I've known him. So when he took on Formula One, I remember meeting with him in London and saying, you know, we're not quite there yet, but someday I hope we can be working together on F1. So I always envisioned that there was things that we could do that no one else could do.

Starting point is 01:29:52 The movie came about separately, not kind of related, but this idea of doing a movie and Jerry and Joe, Kaczynski, it was really Joe's idea, and I just love the idea because there hasn't been a huge racing movie. Most racing movies have not done that well. And I thought there was a real opportunity with F1 to tell an incredible story. And Brad Pitt and the cars and the excitement and that we would, for the first time, had enough technology to show what it was actually like to be in an F1 car.

Starting point is 01:30:29 Because when you watch on TV, it kind of looks like they're on a Sunday drive. It looks pretty easy. You don't get the G-Force. And so we had these ideas of taking the iPhone camera and putting them in all over the cars and different ideas that we thought would give that experience. Now, the movie took a lot longer because we had to go through COVID, strikes, all kinds of things. But it turned out spectacular. And when we would show the movie, one of the questions we would ask to people in the U.S.

Starting point is 01:30:57 is how many of you have seen an F-1 race? And the truth is, very few hands were ever raised. And then after the movie, you asked them, how many people would want to see an F-1 race? And, you know, every hand went up. And so we thought, wow, if we did this together now and these ideas, of how we can really innovate on the whole experience of what it's like to watch an F1 race, we really can make a difference here.

Starting point is 01:31:23 And it's been great. We've done three races so far. The ratings are way above what they've ever been in the US. And so, and we're just getting started, but things like Multi-View, 30% of the people watching F1 races are watching with Multi-View so they can get different cameras, see their favorite teams. Yeah. So it's it's it's definitely changed a lot of how people are experiencing it. That's amazing

Starting point is 01:31:48 Oh product requests Apple Apple, Apple Racing Sim. You'll have two buyers. Yeah, man, it's certainly possible. We just did Vision Pro yeah, with Sim Racing so you could do that. Okay, there you go. We got it for you. Yeah, the racing and the automotive world has a man on the inside. So we're lucky. I'm I'm the strongest supporter of the Vision Pro. I watched another movie in it this weekend, Jordy. If I call, when I call John at 10 p.m. on a Friday night, he's always, he's always, he's always, I love the product. I'm a huge fan. Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time.

Starting point is 01:32:25 It's truly, truly been an honor. It's truly been an honor. Congratulations on 50 years. What an amazing accomplishment. We'll talk to you soon. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.

Starting point is 01:32:34 Have a great rest of your day. Goodbye. Let me tell you about Octa. Octa helps you assign every age and a trusted identity so you get the power of AI without the risk. Every agent, secure any agent. And let me also tell you about Finn. The number one AI agent for customer service. If you want AI to handle your customer support, go to fin.a.

Starting point is 01:32:53 And without further ado, we have Aaron Tarazas from Gusto coming into the restream waiting room. Now the TVPN Ultram. Aaron, how are you doing? Thanks so much for taking the time. We were very excited to dig into some of your research and reporting. But since it is the first time on the show, would you mind introducing yourself, some of your background and what you do for a living. Sure.

Starting point is 01:33:16 No, I'm in a comments by training, currently working with Gusto. Previously been through the tech industry at Glass Store, at Zillow, at a company called Convoy, started my career at the Treasury Department. Okay, so maybe start with, like, what is unique about being an in-house economist? What data do you have access to that others might not? What data is anonymized? Like, how do you do your job and what are you actually looking for? What are the questions that you're trying to answer?

Starting point is 01:33:47 So most economists play with this public data that the government produces. That's great. It's been around a long time. The really exciting thing about being an in-house economist is that there's all of this data behind this private wall gate. We get to understand what is happening in the economy. Sometimes we pick up on things before the official data, say. Sometimes we pick on trends that the official data aren't necessarily showing kind of what's happening beneath the surface. So it is this really exciting place to be as an economist.

Starting point is 01:34:14 Okay, let's go into some of the findings. But first I want to know about like data skew and how you account for the type of customers. You know, Gusto is a sponsor. We talk about small and medium-sized businesses. So I imagine that you have some sort of calibration step where you're adjusting your internal data to some sort of benchmark to make sure that you're not biased towards your particular sample set, right? Absolutely. it's such an important point. Gusto is like a small business payroll platform. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:34:44 We do reweight our data so that it reflects the broader labor market, the broader small and medium-sized business ecosystem. Mm-hmm. And how do you do that? Do you have ground truth data that's public that you can, that you can reference against? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, the government produces this census of all small businesses based by an industry and size.

Starting point is 01:35:05 And so we take that distribution and match our internal data to that distribution. make sense. And then so, I mean, the big question is the small business jobs report. What is the health of the American economy? What is the health of the small business community? What questions were you trying to answer and where did you, where did you wind up? I mean, every month we get this headline jobs report from the BLS. We're watching for this Friday. I think what we're trying to do with this small business job report is get a much firmer pulse on what's happening with small businesses, in particular so businesses with less than 50 employees, you know, that is the majority of businesses in the American economy, but just a small minority of total employment. So it often gets

Starting point is 01:35:47 buried in the headline jobs or board numbers. And we know they're a driver of job growth, they're a driver of innovation, their driver of kind of the bread and butter work that gets done in our economy. Yeah. And where does net hiring stand? Give me some of the headline numbers. What are expectations? What should we, what should we, what's, we by default assume is happening? I mean, there's a lot of doom and gloom in the economy, honestly, broadly because of geopolitical conflicts and nervousness around AI. But what are you actually seeing? You're right. There is a lot of doom and gloom. Our headline jobs number for March showed that small businesses created about 120,000 new jobs. In March, that's an exceptionally

Starting point is 01:36:27 strong number. That's the strongest numbers we've seen since 2022. And, you know, I think it's important note. That's not an outlier. Other kind of payroll providers are showing similar strength. So I think this narrative that we all have in our minds of the great freeze, kind of business is paralyzed by uncertainty. That's in some ways last year. I think 2026 is shaping up to be the great unstucking after being stuck last year. That's amazing news. That's great. Do you have any thoughts on, you know, I can throw out a bunch of random theories off the top of my head. But, you know, this is paired with just yesterday,

Starting point is 01:37:04 Oracle is slashing, staffing over costs. Like, there are big headline attention-grabbing job cuts that are happening at name brand companies. And those, that news will fly very far because everyone knows meta, everyone knows Oracle. And maybe they don't know that the small business just down the street actually increased headcount by 20%, but they only added two people,

Starting point is 01:37:29 so it's not gonna be on the cover of the Wall Street Journal. But is there some sort of, you know, how crazy am I to think about, you know, the large companies maybe being overstaffed and maybe changing their business model, so they need to recalibrate,

Starting point is 01:37:46 whereas small businesses are benefiting from artificial intelligence, maybe trying to do more, trying to expand, trying to compete, and so they're actually expanding their labor force, even while the big, bigger companies have like much larger questions to ask about, you know, what happens over 20 years. Yeah. Big business grabs, big headlines. And you think about the shocks that our economy

Starting point is 01:38:08 has experienced over the past year, the past few years. Big businesses are kind of, I say, like a big freighter. They, you know, they're a little bit more resilient to the tsunami, but they have a really wide turning radius. Small businesses are like a schooner, kind of their, you know, they have to adapt and pivot really quickly in response to the shocks. And I think we saw that. You know, big businesses are just catching up, whereas, you know, all these shocks we experienced last year, small businesses are already head of the curve and are thinking about what comes next. Yeah. If you were tasked with doing job reports for the federal government, how would you approach it, given your exposure to having access to data sources like Gusto? You know, every,

Starting point is 01:38:53 by now is kind of used to seeing a jobs report from the government and then, you know, a few months later or six months later, you get these massive revisions and it's sort of confusing. And it feels like we have all this real-time data and like the data of people like adding an employee to gusto and starting to pay them is like much, much more obviously accurate real-time. And so it feels like the process could evolve. But what's your view? Yeah, I was a government economist. I have enormous respect for government economists. They have a big job. Their job is to look at the 40-year trend in the economy. These are tools that were designed, you know, over multiple decades. The reality is kind of there is so much data exhaust, real-world exhaust right now in our economy that we can capture. And companies like Gusto are, you know, we don't have data from 1963, but we have kind of much better data from what's happening. happening right now. And so I think, you know, the two go ahead and they complement each other. One's going to give us that longer, more stable view of the economy. The other is going to give us these deep windows into these, you know, what's happening in different parts in real time. Do you have any insight into subcategories of jobs, how job titles are changing? I keep using this example that we're a small business. We have 10 people on staff. And we have, Tyler, our, you know, intern who's basically a full-time software developer, as well as a co-host of the show,

Starting point is 01:40:24 in a hybrid role. We have other folks who have vibe-coded whole systems. But in a previous business, if I was building a media company, I would have had to think extremely hard about developing a software engineering organization. And that would have, I would have assumed that would have been extremely costly, a very big build versus buy decision. Instead, it was just, oh, we hired Tyler because we liked him. He can do a bunch of different things.

Starting point is 01:40:47 and he starts vibe coding, and all of a sudden we have six systems, and they all work really well. And so we've become like this hybrid tech media company. We're developing video games now, too. That happened randomly. But we're not a game studio. And so I'm wondering about just,

Starting point is 01:41:01 are you seeing any data that suggests that more people are picking up hybrid technology jobs or software engineering jobs, or even if the titles are changing yet, anything you're seeing on that side? Yeah, everything's in flux right now. I think all the traditional lines, that used to be bright lines and businesses are being blurred.

Starting point is 01:41:20 People are taking multiple hats. You know, founders are doing more things. You raise a really good point. You know, you think about how does a big business hire? You know, you ask for a head. The head goes to your manager. The manager says it to finance. The finance ends up to recruiting, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Starting point is 01:41:35 And that's, you know, a week here, a week there. You're talking about months. When the small business hires, when you hire, they decide, oh, we need someone yesterday. Let's hire them. Who do we? Yeah. Yeah. next week or the week after.

Starting point is 01:41:47 Yeah, yeah. What economic data points are you tracking that are potentially upstream of small business hiring in particular? Because, you know, we all know, gas prices surge. Consumers feel pain at the pump. They cut back on travel. The economy potentially decelerates. There's these like logical chains. And then, you know, in the big companies, it might be like interest rates or something,

Starting point is 01:42:14 geopolitical risk or tariffs. There's all sorts of things that could drive, you know, hiring at the large scale. What are the biggest needle movers that you would watch that might lead to some expectations about what might happen over the next couple months in the small and medium-sized business market? Yeah. I mean, obviously, if you look at things like kind of hiring and job openings, that's plans that are already in place.

Starting point is 01:42:39 But almost more important than that, I think it's sentiment, you know, expectations, particularly among decision makers who have the power to shape the future. So, you know, things like kind of CFO expectations, CEO expectations. That's how business leaders are thinking about the future. And, you know, future is partly prediction. Future is partly creation. Yeah. How good are those surveys?

Starting point is 01:43:03 I feel like I've been a hiring manager for maybe like 15 years now. I don't know that I've ever answered a survey. Maybe I just did it and I forgot about it. But is it broad-based? Are you confident that enough CFOs are actually picking up the phone or answering the survey? Because you can imagine that some of the most high-performing managers are too busy hiring people to answer questions about whether or not they're going to hire people. Totally. This goes back to the conversation we're having about the strengths and weaknesses of different data sources.

Starting point is 01:43:33 When the government goes out and service people, there's a lag in response, bias in who responds. When we're looking at payroll data, that's not kind of responding. or not, I see what you're doing. And so in some ways, you know, that just gives, particularly for smaller businesses where people are busy, they're not picking up the phone, they don't have time to twiddle their thumbs, kind of responding to a government survey. That's capturing a real, real phenomenon. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:43:58 How are you thinking about feeding that into Gusto's actual product offering? Because I could imagine if I'm in there hiring someone and I sort of get like the survey after I hired one people. I planned to hire more people next quarter and it's just to leave a five-star review type thing on an e-commerce website. That would probably have very high, you know, survey completion rate.

Starting point is 01:44:22 Are you looking at doing more to get like qualitative or quantitative data that's more optional from the user base? That's a really cool idea. I certainly have not thought about that. You got to pitch it. Yeah, serving people in the platform, that's something we haven't really done a lot of.

Starting point is 01:44:36 Yeah. But cool idea. I would love that. Because even just more qualitative, just, you know, with LLMs, there's so much that you can do to compress down qualitative data and whatnot. Like, there's so many interesting things you could do. How is AI changing your approach to work? It's a great question.

Starting point is 01:44:52 Yeah, obviously kind of, it's completely transformative. It's transforming the way certainly I work as an economist. I think it's transforming how everyone works. It's transforming how businesses start and hire. I think there's just a growing body of evidence that AI is making it a lot easier to, to, to start a business, to incorporate, to do all of that front leg work. And on top of that, it is changing kind of the skill profile that you need when you hire. You need more of these people who manage processes, particularly at the start.

Starting point is 01:45:26 Yeah. And then day-to-day, I would randomly predict like IPython notebooks a few years ago. Is it all like command line prompts today? How is that changing for you? Yeah, I mean, kind of I still work a lot in Python, but, you know, I'm doing more things at once, and I think that's true for most economists, kind of anyone who's, you know, kind of in some ways has lowered the barrier to getting that data, and that's great, because that accelerates decision-making that helps these businesses adapt in real-time and pivot to a rapidly changing world. Yeah, it's very cool. What a fun position to be in. Congratulations on the success.

Starting point is 01:46:08 I'm sort of laughing in my head about imagining you if you had like a secret LLM subscription back when you were working as an economist. Just the most powerful. They're like, how is Lizao Al-Gai? How does Aaron do what he does? Yeah. Just sitting there. Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us. We'll talk to you soon.

Starting point is 01:46:30 Have a good day. Goodbye. Let me tell you about 11 labs. Build intelligent real-time conversational agents. Reimagine human technology interaction. with 11 labs. And let me also tell you about cognition. They're the makers of Devin, the AI software engineer,

Starting point is 01:46:44 crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. Scoop. Scoop? From Charles and Business Insider, Meta is forming a new elite AI lab. What? The tech giant quietly reorganized its recommendations division. Okay.

Starting point is 01:46:59 Rexis. It formed a top AI team run by TikTok's former head of growth. Reorgan. Rexis has been luring, opening eye, Google, and Amazon, talent. So, just one more lab. One more lab would fix me. That does seem like a great place to apply AI.

Starting point is 01:47:18 Yeah. I feel like the recommendations on Instagram are pretty good these days. I do feel like I get caught in, what's that called Tyler? Like the local minima or like the basin or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Is that the term you used earlier? I said basin, yeah. I feel like it's like, okay, yeah, I watched like a few snowboard videos.

Starting point is 01:47:37 like it doesn't need to be all snowboard videos. We can go back to some vibreels about, about airplanes or something like that. It goes back and forth. But in general, I've had a good experience and I expected to get better. Let's pull up this photo from Kirk Evans showing an advertisement for Tiger Woods. It says, step into the mind of Tiger Woods. And Kirk Evans says, I think I'll pass. Very, very unfortunate situation.

Starting point is 01:48:03 anyway, we can move on. What else is going on? Let's see. There's news from perplexity. Yeah, I can't find any actual reporting on this. Zero hedge said perplexity was accused of sharing information of its users with Meta and Google, but there's zero source here. Yeah, and there might be within the terms and conditions. It could be anonymized, the sharing personal information.

Starting point is 01:48:32 I mean, I guess it's personal if it's deunonymized. The quote here from the Allend podcast is, every single penny we make, we make profits on that, but the overall company is still yet to be profitable. So the other thing is talking about inference. The way that's phrased tells me, we make money on subscriptions saying, for every single penny we make,

Starting point is 01:48:57 we make profits on that. To me, kind of ignores like free users. potentially, right? Because they've tried ads and they killed it. Sure. So they're basically saying, like, on our consumer subscription business, we make money. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:49:11 But the overall company is not profitable. Yeah. And you would expect that. Like, free users, if there's not ads, like, it's going to be negative margin on those. You just hope that it's not that bad. And you hope that it all blends out across your subscription profits. Well, new job alert for Omar Shaheen. Yeah, this is an interesting.

Starting point is 01:49:31 job at Microsoft. He's bringing open claw plus personal agents to Microsoft 365. My goal is to help usher in a new generation of workplace proactive assistance, ones that lighten your load by taking on tasks end to end and that can also step in proactively when they can help. Interesting to see this like counterposition against like the Facebook Manus deal where isn't Manus open source as well? Is it? I don't remember. But you know, it's like every company. company will need to have, you know, a partnership or an in-house LLM to vend into every service. It does feel like the next couple of years are going to be just like the chatbots popped up in every single app with varying degrees of success. Some of them are great. Some of them I wind up

Starting point is 01:50:20 using, and I'm actually glad that I didn't need to export the data. And I can just ask the question directly in that app. And I have faith that they're using a good model. And so they'll give me a good, a good result. And mostly I'm, I'm happy that I know that the data is going to be clean and also secured in that app, in that ecosystem, in that walled garden. I'm fine with that. It does feel like the open claw agents actually build some software to answer our question is going to be vended into another box or another button with a star or something. Maybe it'll be a claw. Just like how every, every app got a star during the AI boom or the chatbot, boom, now the agent boom will need a claw next to the star. Star will be chat bot. Claw will be,

Starting point is 01:51:06 okay, you want to do something where it actually goes and works through this. I feel like Google launched something similar, not necessarily a full like open claw personal agent, but they did announce something along the lines of like an agent for your inbox that processes all your emails. They said goodbye inbox zero. Was that the news? I don't know if we have it pulled up. I can search for it. Was it Sunday? Who posted? it goodbye, inbox zero. Let's see if this pulls anything up. I saw a friend of the show posting about it,

Starting point is 01:51:38 but I will try and figure it out. OpenClaw setup that just deletes every email as soon as it arrives in your inbox. Yeah, it's archive all. You know when the way, were you ever an inbox app user? This was like the pre-superhuman era. It was like the hot email app.

Starting point is 01:51:59 that a team of software developers, iOS developers in particular, built a very well-designed email app for iOS. And this was at a time when a lot of the other native iPhone apps for popular email services were still a little clunky. They didn't have all the great features. And the inbox team sort of went and reimagined it using inbox zero as this philosophy. And so if you're not familiar with inbox zero, basically it's the idea that at the end of the day, you should have nothing in your inbox, which to some people

Starting point is 01:52:35 sounds impossible because they have like 50,000 emails in their inbox. How many emails are in your inbox right now? How many emails? Name every email. You're a 10,000 text message guy. You don't even do inboxes either on your text message. I have 10,000. 20,000 in the inbox. I don't have 10,000. I have 5,750. That's really close. That's closer to 10,000 than zero. Anyway, the whole idea is that Email is a metaphor for a literal office. It's supposed to be a desk and you receive mail that comes to your inbox. If you want to send something, you put it in your outbox and then your team will send that out. But once you've actually taken something out of your inbox, read it, processed it, you can physically throw it into the trash,

Starting point is 01:53:19 or you can physically file it in a cabinet, or you can physically write a response and put it in the outbox. Like this is the way people did business back before email in like the 60s, They were just sitting at their wooden desks, their mahogany desks. And so the inbox team said, let's copy that paradigm. And this was popularized in books and management philosophy for a long time. But let's copy that and have the idea that you should get to inbox zero by the end of the day. And so they made it very easy to inbox, to basically archive all your emails. Like there was this big long waiting list.

Starting point is 01:53:54 It took like months. It was really, really hyped in Silicon Valley. They eventually sold a Dropbox. It was a very good outcome. But it became a very popular product that everyone, like, had to install because it allowed you to get through your emails much faster. So the main feature that is now in basically every email client is that you could just swipe and archive the email, which does not delete it. You can always search for it later, but it says it's just a way, if you're in a to-do list, it's saying that this email, I don't need it, like, I don't need it on my to-do list. Like the inbox is your to-do list.

Starting point is 01:54:25 If you archive it, you can always search for it later. It's not deleted. it's there, you could also shuffle it away in a folder, you could delete it, but then they also had a snooze functionality where you could swipe to the left or to the right or something and say, hey, I'm not ready to deal with this email right now. I'm not responding to it right now,

Starting point is 01:54:43 but this is a receipt or a ticket for a flight, and I want this to come back into my inbox the day before the flight or something like that. And so they made it really easy to both archive and snooze, and when you archive and snooze every email, you can very quickly get to inbox zero by the end of the day. They did a bunch of gamification stuff

Starting point is 01:55:03 to make it fun and be like, you got inbox zero, like take a screenshot of it. People were sharing the screenshots of their inbox zero lineups. Update. What's the update? From NASA Administrator, Jared Isaacman. What's happened? The Artemis 2 crew is boarding Orion.

Starting point is 01:55:15 They're boarding. Okay, good news. I love this video. I'm on the edge of my seat. I didn't know what you were going to say. Can we turn up? Reid or Jeremy. So it looks like Andre is with Reed.

Starting point is 01:55:29 And this is the locked in image. This is the fully locked in with 25,000 buttons. While Andre is buckling him in, that's a five point harness. Tyler, would you stay in a little box that small for two weeks? Eight days for $10,000. $400. If I went to the moon, then, for sure. What if you're just sitting here in the Ultradown, you have access to a laptop,

Starting point is 01:55:59 but you cannot move out of, you know. Yeah, should we do a simulated moon mission where he has to live in a pod for 10 days in solidarity with the astronauts? That's good. That's good. In solidarity, in solidarity. You will, wait, we can send you to the moon in VR.

Starting point is 01:56:17 We can't afford to send you to the moon, but we can send you to the moon in aggregate. Well, we have our next guest in the re-stream waiting room. First, let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world. Raise capital at the table. New York Stock Exchange, just do it. And let me also tell you about Railway.

Starting point is 01:56:34 Railway is the all-in-one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agent to deploy web apps, servers, databases, and more, while Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, and security. And without further ado, we have Prattop. Arena Physica, is the CEO and co-founder. How are you doing? Hey, Jordan, John. Great to see you again.

Starting point is 01:56:55 Great to have you. Welcome back. Yeah, it's been a bit. It has. Please, reintroduce yourself. Give us a little backstory, and then we'll go into the company. Yeah, perfect. So, yeah, Patak, Ronaday, CEO and co-founder of Arena Physica. We were on your show announcing some fundraising about, I'd say, just about a year, a year and change ago, maybe a year and a quarter. Yeah. And companies evolved of it since then. We were, you know, started with bringing AI to hardware engineering. So AI hardware engineers, that's evolved actually quite a bit as we've seen the whole AI

Starting point is 01:57:26 space evolve, which is what is, you know, if we think about modern hardware, it's software defined, right? That's happening everywhere. But software-defined hardware is really like electromagnetically governed. Like the key problems are that it's the electronics interfacing with the firmware, interfacing with the mechanics, and it needs to obey physics and behave well. And it turns out humans can really use one of those forces of physics really well, electromagnetism. And it's a rate limit for progress. And so what we released yesterday is the first foundation model for electromagnetism. Think about it as a large, similar to a large language model in architecture, but the training tokens, they aren't words. There are materials, geometries, and electromagnetic

Starting point is 01:58:08 fields. So learning us, helping us speak another language, basically, the kind of language of the universe. So what's the data set for that? Like, is there, see, all the website, yeah, mind-blank. For sure. So the April Fool, it's actually just a chat app. April Fool's. It's a new L-LM. It's a new chat box. Yeah. No, for sure. The dataset doesn't exist.

Starting point is 01:58:31 Okay. Yeah. Which is why this has been hard. Yeah. So what did you do? Is it simulated or did you have to go collect this? Yeah. How does that work?

Starting point is 01:58:38 Yeah, that's a component. So the reality is like what we've done is basically build a data factory. We spent about a year and a half building that. And, you know, how do we get all of the data that a model of this sort of architecture, transformer type model needs? Yeah. So it starts by creating a random pattern. So that's layer one of the cake.

Starting point is 01:58:56 if you would, is large amount of random generation. And that's different geometries with different material stackups, and then running them through simulation to see how they behave. So that sort of think about it as layer one of the cake. But, you know, the number of possibilities here explode. You add more layers. You think about modern design. It's happening on silicon.

Starting point is 01:59:14 How does, you know, how do they actually behave in the real world? You can't explore that whole universe. You can't randomly explore it. And this has been one of the big bottlenecks is there's very few of these experts in the world. I think Starlink is a great demonstration of what you can build when you've actually mastered such capabilities, but few people have achieved that outside of SpaceX. And it's bottlenecked by experts and simulation. So the second layer of the cake is our experts have been creating designs that work.

Starting point is 01:59:42 And then the final step is we actually fabricate those designs and then we pipe that back into the system. And so I think you guys might have something over there. We do. We do. We receive something in the mail. But we have some weird news because it was intercepted. because it was intercepted. Somebody opened it and stole maybe half the package.

Starting point is 01:59:59 I don't know if there's two things. I only have one, but I do have a screwdriver and this metal box. It was an amazing, presented in quite an amazing way. I think somebody basically was like, okay, this looks valuable. I think that's what happened. So I will open this. You can tell me what this is. And then if the other piece of the puzzle is missing, you can break that down and we can go find the thieves at some point.

Starting point is 02:00:23 I will talk through the other piece. That is a booklet that describes the background of what you're opening. They stole the booklet? They stole the booklet? I know weird. That's extremely weird. I don't go for the metal box. Yeah, the metal box feels like.

Starting point is 02:00:35 It's probably a nation state. I have no idea. That's just so weird. We're not making this up. Like we opened it. We received it and it had been ripped open and the booklet had been stolen. But I mean, I hope that's not like intellectual property or something. But inside it says, caution.

Starting point is 02:00:51 Electromagnetic super intelligence. Handle. only if you are ready for the future. There we go. And so let's open this up. All right. So break it down. Yeah, break it down.

Starting point is 02:00:59 What is this? Okay, great. So I'll flash through a bit some of the booklet for background and then I'll tell you what that is. But if you look at what the booklet is focused on, so what can we do with electromagnetism? What can we do with structures like the one you're holding? What you're holding is an RF circuit. Okay. So a circuit used for radio frequency communication.

Starting point is 02:01:20 Yeah. And if you think about what's happening right now, communication and senses. is kind of the big bottleneck for robotics, for satellite communication, for a lot of the bottlenecks in data centers, and that's gated by this small group of experts and these really slow simulators from about the 80s, right? And so what we've done here is actually create a design from scratch,

Starting point is 02:01:44 from nothing but a prompt. It's the way it works, and it's actually live on our website on our research page, aranaphysica.com slash research. You can read the technical blog and you can play with the product. you can literally type in a prompt and that goes to an LLM and then the LLM basically passes it to our foundation model. So the LLM interprets the prompt that's like, oh, John's trying to build a 10 gigahertz band pass filter for his new satellite company. And it passes off to our lot because I don't hydrate it.

Starting point is 02:02:12 You guys sort of like hydrate the prompts to make sure it's structured and has like the necessary information or what does that pass off look like? Yeah, it's a great question. So the prompt, that's where we actually will rely on the LLM. So let's say you give an incomplete description. You're like, hey, I'm trying to build the space antenna, but you didn't specify that it's a filter. The LLM, you will make some good assumptions and say, are you looking for this? And then that prepares sort of the inputs that we need. And then it calls our model.

Starting point is 02:02:43 So in a way, what I'm really excited about is I see a future where you have multiple AI foundation models working together. And, you know, we've got one that speaks English. surely well, which is your interpreter, which is your front door. But now it needs to go and create a structure, which is physically valid. So that's where it calls Heaviside, our EM Foundation model. And so what you're holding is a 10 gigahertz band pass filter, which is one of those key components inside a modern phased array system, which is used for radar, for satellite communication. And so you think about there's a lot of conversation about data centers in space. We're not going to fiber-optically cable them together. You know, you're going to need to transmit that data

Starting point is 02:03:21 again, between them wirelessly. And so that industry basically started off in about the sort of 60s with a, with phased array radar. Actually, I think the first one was back in World War II. And so what you know, what you've got in your hand is like, if you look at it, it's an alien geometry. It's a strange structure. You know, it looks, it doesn't look like something that came from a human brain, right? It's like it doesn't look like a nice geometric pattern. It's not a line.

Starting point is 02:03:47 It's not a coil. The crazy thing is that it works. And Jordy, just to be clear, you're not supposed to touch that with your bare hands. Yeah, it's over. It's highly radioactive. I'm kidding. No, I'm not convinced this isn't alien technology. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:04:02 But cool story. It's very, very cool. So, I mean, I appreciate the example of, like, the, like, connectivity and space data centers. Obviously, that's, like, frontier. But walk me through the actual, like, market. map industrial scale of like, I imagine there are like certain power law buyers of, uh, of RF equipment. Like it's everything, it's in everything from like that Bluetooth connected toaster to your phone,

Starting point is 02:04:35 to your car. It's everywhere. But what is the actual shape of the industry where, what, what, what, when I'm thinking about like subdividing the industry and getting down like the satellite industry is here, the smartphone industry is here, like walk me through the map of the, like, the potential customer set? Totally. Yeah. If you think about that, there's a few different buckets. So if you can harness electromagnetism in RF, which is, let's say, application one, you've got satellite communication. So phased arrays for SATCOM. So that's your user terminal, your satellite. So if you think about a Starling satellite, I believe it needs to track 64 different locations on the ground. So make 64, 64 different beams. You have to do that with a phased array. So anyone launching, anyone in the space industry, which I think is exploding right now, needs communications between Earth and space, so phase derays are key there.

Starting point is 02:05:25 Radar. Radar is another really big one. So if you think about that, we've obviously got Raytheon as the incumbent here, but if you think about advanced radar, they're incredibly expensive today, and we have few of them on ships. You know, we should have backpack-based radar for soldiers, for counter drone. We should have a whole variety. We want to deb bottleneck this field and basically democratize it, almost like AWSify that for companies building for space.

Starting point is 02:05:51 for radar makers. Also for companies, if you think about data centers, chip-to-chip communication, so these channels that let chips talk to each other are incredibly difficult to get right. In some way, you're trying to build a very bad antenna there

Starting point is 02:06:05 because you don't want it to pick up random interference. You want it to send the signal you want. So just those alone are massive markets. Actually, we looked at the forecast for the phase ray and RF components, and it looks like this line. And I feel like it's something I would have done

Starting point is 02:06:19 right out of school. great, let me take the historic numbers and propagate them forward, but it doesn't seem to account for the fact that we're expecting a boom in space. We're expecting growth in AI data centers. And if you think about imaging, you know, I heard something from our chief scientist here that blew my mind. I always thought about radar is detection. You're trying to detect something, right? And he said, radar is an imaging platform. So as you get to higher frequencies, you know, like LIDAR, you've got this high frequency beam that's echolocating things like a bat. and it's useful for all weather imaging.

Starting point is 02:06:53 So when lights getting blocked, you can actually use a radio wave to kind of create your LiDAR map. So if you think about that being used for robotics, which is another application, so each of these pieces, we feel haven't been sized into the forecast. And so that's, I think,

Starting point is 02:07:08 where a lot of the opportunity lies. And when we talk to customers, so, you know, we work with AMD and Anderl as examples. So our mission is partner with companies at the frontier that are trying to challenge existing cost models and push frontier technology harder, those are sort of the places where we're seeing early adoption. And do you want to be like selling intellectual property like arm or software for chip design

Starting point is 02:07:34 or the actual finished chips? How vertically integrated do you want to be? Yeah. I would say like realistically as of where we are today, our models closer to the model of like a Palantir or an arm. Obviously my own heritage. Last company was bought by Palantir. And so partnering with companies using our whole tool chain.

Starting point is 02:07:54 So this is the latest product, Heaviside, the EM Foundation model. But Atlas, our current product, is an agenic product that lets you use LLM agents to debug parts of the hardware process. So that plus our FDEs that are not just software engineers, but also electrical and RF engineers, Ford deploy as partners to drive major outcomes. What we are seeing and what you're holding is a piece of this is, you know, the existing IP industry is let me license UIP. And this is where it's an open question. We haven't figured it out. But you now have an IP generator as a machine. And so we're really excited about the arm kind of model as I think probably the most proximate to where we are today and our way of having the most impact because we can empower

Starting point is 02:08:37 more teams. Like our mission is to empower more teams to build more advanced stuff. If we think about a lot of the AI doom and bloom, we're like, where do the jobs go? You know, the conclusion we come to is companies just need to be more ambitious. Like that's how we create jobs. Let's assume. we're working with AI, how do we enable you to do that? How do we enable others and more companies to do this? The last thing I want to say on that is, if you look at what happened with language models, it was all possible because of scaling laws. And like, you know, before language models, there was a lot of machine learning where

Starting point is 02:09:05 we were trying to go and solve problems at that use case level, right? We were solving like language translation, summarization, spam detection, separately. But once you pointed a huge model at language as a substrate and open air published that seminal paper in 2020 on. scaling laws, you can scale it up and it started to generalize. Now these things can do remarkable things. We believe we will see, and we're seeing early hints of scaling laws for electromagnetics, and this might be true for physics in general, electromagnetism being one of the four fundamental forces here, but that's sort of what we think is possible. So each of the industries you talked

Starting point is 02:09:38 about doesn't need a specific solution, we think, in the future. As you scale this up, this central brain could power any industry that's bottlenecked by electromagnetism, you know, phased array radar, are SAPCOM and data center interconnects being a starting point. Yeah. Wow. What's the reaction been from the experts that you've mentioned? Are they experiencing a chat GPT moment with the new model yet? Or you still need to iterate?

Starting point is 02:10:04 How are people responding? Yeah. It's a great question. I think the reaction's definitely been really positive in some pockets and deeply skeptical in other pockets. As you can imagine, getting this stuff right is really difficult, right? I would say we're at like a GPT1 moment here. We're not at a chat GPT moment.

Starting point is 02:10:23 We have about tens of millions of data points in the training set. As I mentioned, this data doesn't exist. We had to make it all in the data factory. So that's sort of one of the keys. And so we're finding as the models get larger and as the data set gets bigger, they're capable of more. But today, what you're holding, a human could design an equivalent component, like what you're seeing with a normal structure and it would work.

Starting point is 02:10:45 We're not yet at a superhuman point with the model. but what we are is transforming the cost structure. This is 800,000 times faster than a commercial solver, for instance. And the expertise is not locked up in an expert. You could go and just get that kind of on demand from the AI. So that's what we're seeing today. And I think it will take some time to move up that stack. But that's why I'm super excited about the scaling laws.

Starting point is 02:11:11 And I think from, as I mentioned, AMD and Andral, I think we're fortunate enough to get partners and customers that I think are really on the frontier that are leaning in and believing in this. And so we're super excited about that. Can you talk about the FDE model in this case? I mean, I feel like a lot of people don't even understand the typical engagement of having Palantir FDEs inside of an organization. They might be more familiar with like McKinsey coming to the organization doing a delayering or some management consulting engagement.

Starting point is 02:11:42 Like how long is a product life cycle, development life cycle? How long do you imagine that a typical engagement with FDEs might be? Is it going to be the same as Pallantir different? Like, how is this unique? Yeah. So right now, you know, we definitely see the engagement models being, you know, you're partnering on an array of problems. So we'd start with one, for example.

Starting point is 02:12:05 Let's say that new product innovation cycle is, you know, for something like a new chip or a new data center that might be in the number of like a year. It might be a couple of years. But what we're seeing is then those architecturally. are used across multiple product lines by a lot of these companies. And so could we become a partner long term across all of these electromagnetically limited products? That's sort of where we see sort of that outcome driving, you know, that driving really big outcomes across the stack. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:12:32 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, congratulations, Jordan, anything else? Amazing progress. We will put this to use. We will. As many of these as you send to us. The entire show will run through that. We'll figure it out.

Starting point is 02:12:42 We'll do it. It might take a lot of queries for us. Incredible progress. We might get our FTE. You have to send one over next time. And let's have you back before another year passes. Yeah, we'll talk to you soon. Have a good one.

Starting point is 02:12:54 Awesome. Thanks, guys. Great to see you. Goodbye. Cheers. Let me tell you about console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR, and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets.

Starting point is 02:13:07 And let me also tell you about Lambda. Lambda is the super intelligence cloud building AI supercomputers for training an inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. And I think we're in the Lambda lightning round now? Or are we in something serious? Close. Let's fire up the Lambda lightning round. We love the Lambda lightning round.

Starting point is 02:13:25 The cloud is working overtime. Kick. Yeah, what's going on with? Kit has acquired Phase Clan. Oh, that's interesting. And nowstay strategic acquisition of phase media. Yeah. Was Fais a public company at some point?

Starting point is 02:13:37 There was some plan that was public. Whoa. Okay. Are we sure that this is real? It's not April Fools. Oh. I'm just throwing that. I don't know.

Starting point is 02:13:46 Okay. Yeah, kick. I don't know. Can we dig into this? Is this an April Fool's joke? Somebody already asked Rock? Yes, 100% it's an April Fool's prank. The press releases dated 4-1, 2026. There's zero real news of confirmation of any kick phase deal. And it fits the classic nostalgic streamer org acquisition troll vibe. Nice catch. I'm so unk that I didn't realize this was, is this supposed to be funny? It's on their Wikipedia, though. So I don't know, actually. I think this might be real. I don't know. I mean, it seems like, it seems like if Faze was taken private and is looking for, you know, a new home integration into KIC, like, this doesn't seem like that crazy. It's not like, if it is April Fool's joke, it's not like hilarious. It's not a very good one. I'm not like, oh, wow, I never would have imagined that kick and Faye is teamed up.

Starting point is 02:14:36 Like that's, there are people that are making that joke. There was some company that was a high-free trading firm that was joking about being acquired by Anthropic or something. It was like a crypto-wit company. Crypto Wallet Company, like that feels a little bit more non sequitur, right? Well, Adam Faze has a good story. He says, Faze Media owns the trademark for his born last name Faze and sent him a cease and desist in 23 when he originally named his production company Fays World. He says, I want my last name back.

Starting point is 02:15:03 I'm rooting for you. I'm rooting for Adam Fais to be able to use the brand. Well, you should have bid on the IP, buddy. You should have bid. I mean, also, what were your parents doing, not trademarking your, name in every possible category as a child. This is deep alpha. I need to lock up Coogan rather than later.

Starting point is 02:15:21 Tani, on a roll today says it's never been a better time to be in the fake wood panel industry. If you sell fake wood slats that can be quickly installed in a room somewhere, business is booming with no signs of slowing down. I love the slat walls. We got to get one in here so we can just like step back and go and hang out and do a little slat wall podcast. Wait, that would have been that would have been named Bulls. Oh, what were we thinking?

Starting point is 02:15:45 You know, we struggled with April Fool's this year. We think it's a little bit overplayed. It's not that. It's not that funny. And kind of every single day is April Fool's for us. Yeah, we joke a lot. And it's a good day for us to just get serious. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:15:59 Get the white suits. Focus on the market. The market's up. We're in white suits. Dylan really serious. But, you know, the actual play would have been to rebuild like the typical podcast set with like the bookshelves, the slat walls. But then make it miniature, right? Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 02:16:15 And so we're sitting there. We're sitting there. We look like, you know, giants. Giants of the industry. Do you know why the slot wall is so popular? Isn't it, Huberman? Yes, but do you know why he selected it? I do not.

Starting point is 02:16:29 So, when you are recording a podcast, you want good audio quality. You don't want reverberation. You don't want a lot of flat walls that will balance the sound back to you and create echo and distortion and hollowness in the sound. You want a nice bassy response. You need a nice microphone, but you also need a sound treated area in the Ultradome. We have some sound treatment over there. We have some sound treatment over there. We do have a hard floor. Maybe that would make the audio quality better. Who knows? But we, for a long time, people would put up that sort of, it's an egg crate style. I don't know if we have a camera. Maybe the reverse PTZ would do it.

Starting point is 02:17:11 but the egg crate style soundproofing works incredibly well. And if you're ever in a professional recording booth as doing voiceover for a film or recording a song, you will be in a booth that has a lot of spike. Yeah, it has a lot of spiky. Yeah, you can see it right here. So this sort of egg crate, it creates a lot of little holes for the sound to get caught in effectively. And very fun, Johnny. And the problem is that that makes it look like you are in a sound booth.

Starting point is 02:17:47 It's not very aesthetic. It doesn't look like a natural environment. And so there were companies that said, let's get the best of both worlds, something that's aesthetic but still sound treating. And so they launched these wood slat walls. Of course, the space in between the wood captures the sound a little bit, acts as a little bit of deadening. And then, of course, you can also hide soundproofing material behind the wood slat wall.

Starting point is 02:18:11 And so it was a very logical way to have an elevated aesthetic while still getting the benefits, at least some of the benefits of sound treatment. Then Andrew Huberman did it, went mega viral, and everyone sort of copied it over and did the same thing. And it's become a huge trend. He wound up painting his black, I think. And who knows? I think they got sick of being cool. Now, you know, if you're in the black paint industry, that's where the monies is. because everyone with the fake wood panels is going to be painting it black.

Starting point is 02:18:43 We have yet to do this. I've looked at this in the past, but I've never actually done it. Anyway, do we have the right person, guys? I believe so. Are you sure? Sorry. We are figuring out who. Oh, yes.

Starting point is 02:18:59 Okay. Got it. Sorry. I'm, uh, yeah, I thought we were jumping ahead to Gary Tan. I'm sorry. Anyway, without further ado. Let's run it back. Let's run it back.

Starting point is 02:19:08 Abash. I messed up. Abash. Great to meet you. Thank you so much for taking the time. I got a little mixed up on the schedule, but it's great to have you here with us today. Anyway, please introduce yourself in the company.

Starting point is 02:19:21 Hey, thanks for having me. I'm Abishik, Abhishek Das. I'm the co-founder and co-CEOGO of Yat. And introduce the company. What are you building? Yes, at Yutori, we're building web agents, so agents that can take actions and complete tasks on the web. So we think that the future of interacting with the web

Starting point is 02:19:39 is going to look quite different than it does today. where we're not manually navigating web pages, clicking buttons, filling forms, etc. We're going to be operating at a slightly higher level of abstraction where we have AI agents who we delegate tasks to that carry on a lot of these tasks in the background on our behalf. And does that mean like virtual machines loading the full web page and clicking on it like a mouse and keyboard interaction? Or are you interacting with the APIs and reverse engineering the routes to sort of just build CLIs on the fly? Like, what are the different strategies that are working and not working right now? Yeah, so it's everything you mentioned, basically.

Starting point is 02:20:18 Okay, both. We should probably think of it in layers. So there's the core LLM that's looking at how web pages are laid out, how to click buttons navigate websites to take a task to completion. Then there's the agent harness, which surrounds that LM. So on the web, we have APIs available. They'll make use of APIs where there's no APIs use. it will use this kind of a visual linguistic model.

Starting point is 02:20:44 And the agent harness takes care of things like persistence. So if it makes a mistake and it has to backtrack and try something else, that it knows how to do that. The agent harness would take care of memory, orchestration, breaking a task down into subtas, all of that. And then the third layer is putting all of this together. What does the product experience look like where this works for everyone? How are you thinking about the divide between consumer versus business to business?

Starting point is 02:21:10 enterprise, how do you see the customer mix evolving? Yeah, most of our users are prosumerers. So individuals who are using it for work. So like small to medium business owners, all individuals working at bigger companies. The model layer that I talked about, we do train our own model in-house. It is as accurate as Opus 4.6 and GPD 5.4, but it is 2 to 3x faster and much cheaper. So that we make available as an API as well. Sure.

Starting point is 02:21:42 What was the process creating the model? Did you take an open source model and... Yeah, exactly, exactly. So most of our focus is on mid-training and post-training with a mix of SFT and auto. We started off of an open-source quen-based model and we collect our own data both in simulation and actual websites and we train on those.

Starting point is 02:22:04 So the big labs don't scare you. Talk about how you see the competitive kind of environment evolving. This is something that I think everyone should assume that all the different kind of consumer, pro-sumer in enterprise products do, maybe not super well right now, but will do. How do you see the market evolving? Yeah, I think the market for non-coding knowledge work,

Starting point is 02:22:34 digital work is massive. There's a lot of work to be done there. it hasn't quite hit the kind of inflection point that coding agents have. So, yeah, there's a huge opportunity there. The area that we do peak on and we care about is tasks that happen on the web. So browser use capability specifically. Anthropic, Open AI, et cetera, have models for computer use, which is more general purpose.

Starting point is 02:22:58 But for browser use, currently ours is the best model that's out there, both for accuracy and latency. How do you think about, like, the textbooks you use, I'm sure you get asked about like booking a flight. That's more of like agentic on the web, go do something for me. I can also imagine there's a huge value in just, you know, monitoring websites, scraping data, putting things together. We were talking yesterday about how, you know, will we see an explosion of token consumption

Starting point is 02:23:30 among financial professionals like we've seen among programmers? And my bull case that we will is that, yes, you're just maybe building one financial model. You're not necessarily building a thousand financial models a day. But that one financial model might interact with thousands and thousands of web pages to collect every possible data point to create aggregated data sets that can be compressed and compressed down into a 12 tab Excel sheet that eventually results in, you know, should you buy the stock or not? whatever the financial analysis is. Yeah, I mean, so there's a lot to unpack that. Yeah. The first thing you mentioned were, like,

Starting point is 02:24:15 logging into a website and booking a bite or, like, ordering food or something. We actually shipped a bunch of a big upgrade today, and it's basically possible today. Like, you can connect your favorite websites and apps to our product, which is called Scouts. Yeah. And you can just give it a task.

Starting point is 02:24:32 Like a bunch of us internally have been using it to automate, like, orders. We've had people externally try it out as well for LinkedIn, other websites as well. But a lot of that is possible today and it makes use of the like our code model, the agent harness everything, like all the tech components coming together. Now in terms of how I see the token consumption and usage of this going forward, I think it's still quite early in this space. Like a lot of non-coding digital work hasn't quite gotten the kind of attention. and hit that inflection point yet.

Starting point is 02:25:08 So the cheaper and more reliable and more accurate it gets, I think we're just going to see an explosion of usage of this technology. Yeah, it feels like there's a little bit of a capability overhang. Like you can do really deep research and you can do deeper research with a coding agent in many ways, but that workflow and that just, it just hasn't broken through to everyday consumers that they should even think about, you know, asking an LLM or an agent, a question like, you know, build my financial profile from every data source all over the place and analyze everything. They come to it with like, you know,

Starting point is 02:25:47 how much should I invest in the stock market? Like a basic question that's basically just web search. Yeah. So there's there's two or three aspects here. One is that we actually had someone tried this recently on our product where they gave it access to their email and they had a bunch of expense reports that are coming on their email, and they asked the agent to prepare sort of a nice categorization and spreadsheet of all their expenses, and they were able to one-shot it. Wow. So that's one part of it. The other part of it is that the previous version of our product was primarily meant

Starting point is 02:26:24 for agents that can monitor anything on the web. So kind of like Google alerts, but on set or it's like an AI-native version of it. But with today's release, one of the things we released is the capability to build live artifacts. So now these agents don't only, don't just monitor. They can prepare a single sort of spreadsheet on a website or a dashboard that stays updated as new information comes in. So like if you want to track any time a startup comes out of stealth or like a startup announces a fundraise, you can now use scouts to make a single, maintain a single spreadsheet for it. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:27:02 How, where's the company at? When did you start it and what were you doing before this? Yeah. So we started the company in 2024. I'm an AI researcher by background. I grew up in India. I moved to the US in 2016 for my PhD. That was at Georgia Tech.

Starting point is 02:27:17 After that, I spent some time at Fair at Meta as an AI researcher. There's two other co-founders. All three of us are AI researchers by background. We're about 15 people. We've raised a little bit of a little bit. look beyond our safe joint. That's where we are. Are you compute constrained at all? Massively. Massively.

Starting point is 02:27:39 Well, I mean, what's the plan? Is the best practice just like hunt around for cheap GPUs or slide around different services? Or use your product to monitor when availability online on the Neo Labs? NeoClauts, yeah. Yeah, so we definitely do a lot of that. And we are, I think, quite compute efficient from that point of view. But compute is one part of it, the other is data, right? So a lot of tasks on the web, it's not easy to collect and generate data as, let's say,

Starting point is 02:28:15 computer-use tasks where you can just hire a bunch of annotators to, like, let's say, simulate certain tasks on their, like Microsoft Office apps and so on, right? Like on the web, many of these are irreversible actions. Like, if you actually buy something, then there's real cost. associated with it. So it's not as easy to collect data. We do a mix of like simulation and sort of using our product to visit web pages, especially websites where there's a few clicks and navigation steps in board. So you can't like index or crawl them in a naive manner.

Starting point is 02:28:51 So are you building oral environments for particular websites? Is that programmatic or are they like handcrafted? Like how many like what's the scale? I imagine that you like you need to build a lot of these for, generalization, that's very cumbersome, and there's going to be like flaws with every single different system that you try and build. Yeah, so we wipe code a bunch of simulated websites and use that. It generate data and like evals.

Starting point is 02:29:17 There is a good amount of in category generalization that we see. Like, for example, if you imagine how Amazon is laid out or how any e-commerce website is laid out, there's not that much variance between them. If you compare that to, for example, how Zillow or Redfin is laid out. Totally different. What the U.S. looks like. Interesting. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:29:35 So just being intelligent about, like, how we're sourcing data. And then are you, like, stack ranking those? Like, is Amazon more valuable than Zillow? Because consumers will demand that or prosumers will demand that over Zillow or vice versa. And how do you evaluate that? I think it's a mix. We do keep a close eye on making sure that mix looks good. and like as we wanted to be.

Starting point is 02:30:00 A lot of our users use it for more work-related things. Sure. As opposed to in their personal life. So we keep a focus on that. Yeah. So it's log into my ERP, my payroll system, pull stuff from all different dashboards. I can imagine us pulling analytics from all the different analytics providers. And they all have separate websites, but they all like have some similarities in the design philosophy

Starting point is 02:30:24 and the best practices and what they would color the CTAs are and whatnot. Anyway, yeah, this is fascinating. Congrats on the progress, and thank you so much for taking the time. Great to chat with us. Thanks for breaking it down. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers. Have a good one.

Starting point is 02:30:37 Goodbye. Let me tell you about a very related company. Label Box, RL environments, voice, robotics, evals, and expert human data. Label Box is the data factory behind the world's leading AI teams. And let me also tell you about Graphite. Code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. And we should have Gary Tan joining us in just a minute, but we can go back to the timeline.

Starting point is 02:31:02 We can pull up this post from Marik Hazan. He says, we just rebuilt every startup in YC's latest demo day batch. Here's what our agentic founders pulled off and what it means for the future of startups. Fully usable products at the bottom of the thread below. He's like, I one-shotted all of your companies. I built everything. What a crazy time. Let's play this video.

Starting point is 02:31:25 Yeah, let's play this video. every startup in YC's latest Demodei Batch. At Felt Sense, we build agenic founders that source ideas, build product, and build market all on the own. So we asked, Could our killer agents compete with these cracked founders? On Demo Day, our agents swarmed the YC website, found every startup in the batch,

Starting point is 02:31:46 and locked in to reverse engineer each build. They reconstructed their own PRDs based on public product specs and started to rebuild each application. When they hit SACCHIPF. snags or needed input, they called in a human to help resolve every problem. Core technology that took founders months or even years to create was rebuilt, rebranded, and ready to go to market within 24 hours. So what does this mean for YC and the startup ecosystem more broadly?

Starting point is 02:32:14 It means AI replication risk is becoming more and more of a threat to every business. So what makes a startup more or less replicable? This is what we learned. Several obvious protections exist for start. building things in the physical world and owning data that others simply can't get to are a few examples. But there's a third one that caught us off guard, and it's more interesting. Most people think the best protection in an AI world is human creativity, meaning or ingenuity,

Starting point is 02:32:43 the positive parts of humanity. But that's not what we're really seeing. The real protection seems to come from the messy stuff. Industries filled with politics, lack of trust, turf wars and bureaucracy, markets that are painful to work in due to complex or even failing social dynamics are exactly the ones that are hardest to deploy into, and therefore the most protected. A company that has learned to pick apart that mess and embed their solution has something few competitors can copy overnight. Difficult markets aren't bad markets. In an AI era,

Starting point is 02:33:16 they may be the safest ones to spend your rare time and resource. They're saying that hard, hard companies are hard. It feels like a blog post as a full video. Like it has a lot more. There's like more of a thesis and meat on the bone. Wow, he ratioed himself in the video. You got way more likes in the video than. Well, we have Gary Tan here.

Starting point is 02:33:41 We can ask him. If all of these. Let's bring Gary Tan into the gym and all too down. Gary, how are you doing? Doing great. Is it over or are we back? Is it over or are we back? Everyone's saying it's over.

Starting point is 02:33:53 We're back and forth. How are you feeling today? Oh, we're so back. Okay, break it down. Well, how are we back? Oh, my God. How can we not be back? Okay, explain.

Starting point is 02:34:02 What's exciting? We are at the dawn of like being able, like, software is totally fungible now. Okay. And then basically, the tricky thing now is like you just got to spend the money on the tokens. Okay. One of the things that's, like, one of the things that's, I think people are very, very afraid to spend money on tokens. Okay. And the things that you can do right now, like, you can literally make.

Starting point is 02:34:25 open claw. Yeah. And the reason why Pete could do that was he's actually like really, really successful previously. Sure. And he could let it rip. Like I think one of the key things that people have to understand about like the current moment is you cannot be precious about your like clawed code max account.

Starting point is 02:34:46 You have to like really just let it rip. And when you let it rip, you can create like these things that like set the world on fire actually. What about all the other things? I mean, so YSC is interesting because there was a, you know, for a long time, it was about technical founders, you know, writing code oftentimes. Still is, right? But it was like, okay, you're technical. You are going to write code while you're here.

Starting point is 02:35:10 But also you're going to talk to users. You're going to figure out a go-to-market motion. You're going to find a hard problem. You're going to figure out, you know, secrets of how this business works. What makes your moat deep and whatnot? and it feels like, is AGI capable of that, or are we in, like, the software on the singular? Oh, no. We still need people. I mean, like, this stuff is, it's like a, you know, it's like Jiminy Cricket, man, but you still got to be, you know, Jiminy Cricket's got to stand on someone's

Starting point is 02:35:36 shoulder, and it might as well be yours. Okay, so don't be precious about tokens. So, so obviously if somebody sent you an investor update at YC. Port Co. And said, and the, and the only number they shared was how much they spent last month, based on what you're saying, you might be like, okay, you're on the right track. But that's clearly not a metric to optimize for how, you know, what, what should founders be optimizing for, you know, when they're locked in for 18. Making something people want. Okay.

Starting point is 02:36:07 It's crazy. I don't know. I mean, I've been, I feel like I'm at the center of a lot of like weird controversy. Like, did the guy lose his mind? What's going on? I've been thinking about it. And it's like, it's not actually about me. It's about like people's relationship with their craft.

Starting point is 02:36:21 and that has to change. And so I think my response to the haters is like, have fun coding at 1X speed, bros. Well, I don't know that the haters are not also using the tools and not generally excited about it. I think it's just primarily... Like, I'll give you a concrete example.

Starting point is 02:36:43 Please. Like, I noticed yesterday, I had a throwaway comment because I created G-Stack. It's got 60,000 stars now. I'm actually growing faster than OpenClau by stars on GitHub right now. And, you know, I mean, they had their moment and like, I'm, you know, on my way, right? About 30,000 people use G-Stack every single day. I've been getting emails that are pretty awesome, actually.

Starting point is 02:37:06 Like, people trying to start consulting firms, and they just want to, like, you know, feed their kids. And maybe they lost their job. And then they literally are like, starting this consulting firm, I've never done this before. I, like, sit down with a client. I just open office hours with G-Stack. And as they talk, I type in, you know, what we're talking about. And then I'm like live talking to, you know, and they sign a customer on the spot within like 20 minutes of talking to someone because of the G-Stack like office hours skill.

Starting point is 02:37:37 To build custom software for that client? Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah. And then maybe, you know, the thing is custom software. You know, I was at Palantir when, you know, Stefan Cohen and Sham Sunker basically invented the idea of your forward deployed engineer. So everyone's an FDE.

Starting point is 02:37:56 That's what you're doing. Everyone can be an FDE. And the thing is, like, if you don't know how to do it, like, this thing is like the training wheels that will teach you. And then, you know, it was the training wheels for me as I was learning how to do it. Like the original prompt I had posted on Twitter right when I was working on Gary's list. And like those things, like both my engineering prompt. to like shake out all the bugs and get to 100% test coverage.

Starting point is 02:38:24 That was my Plan Eng review that is in GSTAC today. And then the other one was Plan CEO review. I call it my Brian Chesky review. Okay. Like it's like having Brian Chesky sit on your shoulder and be like, I mean, that would be a heavy person to sit on your shoulder. But like he's going to ask you, are you in founder mode?

Starting point is 02:38:39 Are you moving fast enough? It's like what's the 10 star experience, right? If you've ever seen him talk about the 10 star experience, like that's what having CEO, plan CEO review in the G-Stack skill feels like to me. And I really think that that's awesome. I want everyone to have that. So I was like having a throwaway thought,

Starting point is 02:39:01 one of the core things I made was a browser plugin that wraps playwright. And so the reality is like I'm just solving problems for myself. I was building Gary's list. And I found myself, you know, the plan CEO review worked well, The plan end review worked really, really well. And then I found myself like, you know, I'm using conductor. I have like six or seven windows open at that time.

Starting point is 02:39:25 I'm up to 20 right now. And I found myself like running between windows, just doing manual testing. And I'm like, great. Like I work so hard to like build all these skills to like get way faster. And then now I'm just a black box QA engineer for the robots. Like this is so boring. How terrible. Can I automate it?

Starting point is 02:39:46 So I opened another conductor window, and I was like, man, why does Claude in Chrome MCP suck so much? I don't know if it sucks now. Like, it's been a month or something. Maybe they fixed all the bugs, but it literally couldn't do it. It's like two or three seconds, five seconds, crazy context bloat. It was unusable. And then I said, okay, like, well, I know Playwright exists. Can we make a CLI that's like a thin shim over what Playwright does?

Starting point is 02:40:12 And then basically it did it. And then that was what the first V1 of GSTAC was. It was those two scripts and like a playwright browser plugin that allowed me to not QA anymore. Like I could just say, okay, now slash QA. Like, you know what we did in this branch. We have all these plan files. Like go line by line and act like my QA engineer. And it did it.

Starting point is 02:40:35 And like the first time I used it was like 100 milliseconds. It was doing it. It could log in. It could like click on things. It like took screenshots of things that were broken. And then it would fix them immediately. and I was like, oh my God, this is how to do it. Like, this is how you build a software factory.

Starting point is 02:40:52 It's like, I automate each of the steps. Like, I've built so many pieces of software over the years, and I've helped so many people do that. And it's like, this is the process. And so now there are 30 of these skills. And then, you know, now you still, like, I think we're still in manual mode. Like, I built an auto plan so that now, like,

Starting point is 02:41:09 all of these different pieces, like, there's a recommendation in each of them. And, like, if you really want to be in the weeds and understand what's happening. You can just, like, read the recommendation. You can talk with it. You can be like, well, I like option A, but like option B sounds better for X, Y, and Z reason.

Starting point is 02:41:23 Like, let's talk about it, right? So, yeah, it's interesting because, like, I'm arriving at similar things to what I think, like Devon or other automated software factories are doing, but I'm doing it in the open, open source, MIT license. Like, anyone, like, if you don't like something, just fork it, man. And, like, you know, yeah, just make it yours.

Starting point is 02:41:44 And I have, like, 200. PRs I have to look at right now. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. We'll take care of it. What was the, is Gary's list more of just an experiment to put this to work? Because, I mean, it's, I, because in some ways, like, you didn't have to build Gary's

Starting point is 02:42:02 list. Yeah. Could have used, like, a substack or WordPress. Or fork something that's already open source. But building it from scratch, like, are there clear benefits where you're like, I'm really happy? or was it more like the processes? I'm having right now that you can't,

Starting point is 02:42:19 you know, if you use package software, you can't do, is all the emails come from me directly. Like the from line is for me. Okay. And when you reply to it. So I don't send, you know how like you sign up for New York Times or something like that? You get an inbox, like a daily digest,

Starting point is 02:42:33 the same digest that everyone gets. Yeah. You get a personal one. Oh, okay. You know, you do have to apply to get into Gary's list. Okay. You have to like sort of tell me what you're into. Interesting.

Starting point is 02:42:43 But, you know, all the emails come from. for me directly. And I don't write them. The AI writes them, but I do read them. Interesting. So everything that, and, you know, when you reply, it's going to my own inbox. Wow. And AI is helping me read it. Yeah. And it's like going into the personalization system I built so that we can send you

Starting point is 02:43:02 things that are more relevant to you. But like in some sort of weird parissocial way, like Gary's List is my experiment in like communication at scale. Personalized communication at scale. Like, I can be your personal assistant on, like, hey, I'm mad about politics. Or, like, my kids getting, you know, can't get a good education in school. What should I do? Yeah. And, like, obviously, I have a chat and it's like, you know, state of the art, like,

Starting point is 02:43:26 Opus 4.6 thinking, like, all that stuff, like, you know, it has data sources. You know, there have been users on there that have gone online who are like just engineers, like living in Pleasanton. Like, there's this one guy who never got involved in politics before. And he's sending letters to all of his. representatives based on the policy things that are like screwed up in his life like his kid you know his kid school is messed up like there's all the you know and you know he's having you know a hundred conversations a month with our agent about like this you know and then he emails me about it I'm

Starting point is 02:43:59 like oh cool well I like this and maybe you should send this email to you know such and such person and so I don't know this is I think all of these are just fun experiments but I'm learning a lot you know, it isn't, you know, I am trolling on people about the lines of code thing, but I will say that there's a grain of truth here where I am not about lines of code. I don't work for anyone, like, really. You know, I work for the institution of YC as the steward of it. But aside from that, like, I'm not here to, like, max lines of code to, like, you know, to Goodhart Law something, you know.

Starting point is 02:44:36 Yeah. What I've learned is that, like, the machines don't, aren't good heart lawing, like, of code either. So that means that if you are 100% of your code is written by, you know, the machines and you are earnestly trying to solve the problems of your users and yourself, like I am with GSTAC in the open. Like you can look at it and I'm doing 36,000 lines of code a day. And not a single one of them is like for me to be able to say that. It's actually like, I'm just having the time of my life, building software. Like we're about to launch something really awesome at YC. I was about to ask.

Starting point is 02:45:12 Can you tell us the story of Bookface and then where you think software development will go at YC? Yeah, I mean, Bookface, we have 20 engineers at YC. One of the funniest things we found out was like actually a lot of people seem to have access to Bookface. Bookface is the internal social network used by, we have about 16, 17,000 people who are YC alums now who have access. About 40% of them use it every single day. and I've started to realize actually anyone who has a friend of someone who works who uh went through YC you know yeah like people basically share their logins so I mean which is cool actually like the reality is we should probably open it up like we probably should have a like if you're a builder

Starting point is 02:45:57 I don't think I want absolutely anyone like I want like techno optimist people who are psyched about making the future and like I think bookface should be open to people you know that might be one of the things we work on this year, you know. Yeah, there's so much interesting, like, wisdom and stories in there. Some of the stuff is maybe private, and people don't want it to be screenshoted and shared, but there's definitely a process to open it up. How are YC founders in the latest batches adapting to the change of pace of software development? There was a guy yesterday who made the claim that he rebuilt the whole batch with agents.

Starting point is 02:46:37 Congratulations. God bless. And of course, incredible troll. I'm not sure he made anything that people want. A good demo for his product. Got some attention. Shout out to Tim Draper, you know, big respect, man. Like, you know, you got to do what you got to do.

Starting point is 02:46:55 I love it. Yeah. But in a world where a YC founder might have in a previous era been very proud of the system that they built, the code that they wrote, even if they're not tracking lines of code. They said, look, this piece of software did not exist. I spent three months grinding with my co-founders. We built a piece of software that solves that problem.

Starting point is 02:47:18 And now that's, you know, five minutes of work. Where will the moats come from in the future YC companies? I mean, basically the future, like, what's funny is basically all the people who already did that, like, you got to speed up. Like, it's time to let it rip, guys. Like, software is to, we treat. software like it is so precious and in the new world that we're

Starting point is 02:47:41 going to, it is going to be much more fungible, but that's the good news. Like that's where taste and agency and trust matter a lot. This is something that only crystallized recently. We've been talking about agency and taste for the longest time. Agency is being able to prompt

Starting point is 02:47:56 and taste is being able to do e-vals, right? And then the third part that I only started thinking about, I think there was a tweet I reposted today that said it really, really well. like trust is the third thing. And so, you know, that's probably the thing that's the most important. Like when you have an enterprise company that is selling to real businesses and they're relying on you,

Starting point is 02:48:20 like that's your moat. Your moat is actually trust. Like they went to the effort to try you, to get you onboarded and to incorporate you into how, you know, they work. And then, you know, I think that either you can hold on to that and that's a real moat and you can build something over the long haul. Like someone gets promoted or someone avoids being fired because you exist

Starting point is 02:48:41 and they're never going to switch and they trust you. That's like even more important than those other things. And so, you know, yeah, like what is the story about? It's not about like, is someone going to try,

Starting point is 02:48:53 like if someone came along to you, like this, you know, this impressive like Draper company like troll on YC companies is a good case study in that, right? Like I'm impressed by the volume of software and they clearly built a software factory,

Starting point is 02:49:09 but maybe you should open source it. Like, that would be cool. Aside from that, it's like, are people going to trust things that are like trolls? Like, I don't know. I mean, I hate to bring up, you know, let me state plainly, like, I actually really respect Roy.

Starting point is 02:49:25 He's always been really cool to me on the internet, and I feel like I've been unfair to him. You know, I think that clearly legit is, like we're talking about it at YC Partner Lunch today. like, oh, yeah, like, the guy actually has real revenue, and the idea is good. Like, not, you know, the troll marketing part, like, you know, we have problems with. We talked about that a lot. Yeah, the interesting thing with the product from the beginning, I think some of the criticism was, okay, if this product works, like, there's going to be some big companies that roll it out.

Starting point is 02:49:57 And so that's, like, this other question, right? And that's the trust thing again, right? It's like, there are things that you can get you here, but they're not going to get you there. right. Is sleep overrated in the, is sleep overrated in this moment? Is it a waste of time? Are you adapting? Oh no. Sleep is great.

Starting point is 02:50:17 I'm starting, like last night around, I don't know, to 1.30 a.m. I was like getting foggy. And I probably could have kept going, but I'm like, let's go to sleep, man. Like, I'm going to wake up in the morning and I'm going to dream about a bunch of the things I want to do. And I'm going to wake up. And I'm going to wake up. And I get to wake up and go to my computer. and go to Conductor and Claude Code and, you know, let's see what the workers are up to.

Starting point is 02:50:41 I love it. I love it. I have two questions. One, what was your stack like back when you designed the Palantir logo? What was the, was that a tasteful exercise? Was that, like, what went into designing the Palantir logo? Yeah, I mean, basically, what's funny is, yeah, that was such a weird formative year. Like, I'll paint the picture. Like, we're in Page Mill Road in Palo Alto, So the iconic downtown Palo Alto office, we were a year away from even moving into. This was like across from where I think Tesla headquarters in Palo Alto is now on PageMill. We only were 12, maybe 10 or 12 engineers at that point. And I was working on the hiring site for Palantir.

Starting point is 02:51:25 You know, PalantirTech.net or something. I think we didn't have the dot com yet. And the original logo was created by my high school buddy, Stefan Cohen, who's still at talent here and a billionaire many times over. And, you know, basically I was like, how do I get engineers to want to work here? The logo kind of, like, it was like six hexagons, I think, and people came and they thought it was like a biotech company or something. Oh, interesting.

Starting point is 02:51:51 And then we just basically, I took maybe, I don't know, a week. It wasn't more than a week of, like, working on it, but we made like a thousand different versions of it, which is really funny because, like. And that was pre-G-stack. Yeah. Yeah. Now in G-stack, you can go slash design-dash shotgun, and you can say, design me 100 of these things.

Starting point is 02:52:12 And then it'll pop a window. It'll use code-out. That's amazing. Wait, so, yeah, I mean, how do you think, do you think AI is changing design? Do you think there's still room for taste in this world? Do you think that all the same rules apply, or is it somehow different?

Starting point is 02:52:29 Oh, no. I mean, the machines don't have a point of view. they'll give you lots of options. And, you know, I think if you don't have taste and you're using these tools, you'll make something that's, like, marginally better. But it'll still just be, like, you know, marginally better than average. Whereas I think it's clear that, like, you know, I mean, there are tools like variant UI. It's like a YC company that we fund it.

Starting point is 02:52:51 It's like, you just go and then it's like, that's the real version of design shotgun. Like, you know, you can't, you will have design tools that have taste. And if you use those, you will have a leg up. But I don't know. I guess it just goes back to the agency part again. It's like, you know, one of the principles I built into G-Stack recently that has served me really well is before you start coding or before you start making technical plans at the engineering level, I tell it always search the web. It's like figure out what's, you know, you want to, someone else has figured it out. Like there's something open source, there's something that's out there.

Starting point is 02:53:28 Go all the way to the edge. and then, you know, basically don't try and reinvent the wheel, right? Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's prompting. Is there a world where it re-implements Gary's list in Jekyll or something? Who knows, really? I mean, we'll see. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:53:47 It might. I mean, it's using a lot of open source software. Obviously, it didn't write his own programming language. It probably didn't write its own database. It's using off-the-shelf tooling there. But the core app, I mean, I guess with the right flexibility and the, tools that you wanted and the features that you wanted. Like, it makes sense to, it, we're almost, it's not build versus buy anymore. It's like, it's like fork versus inference or something.

Starting point is 02:54:11 Yeah. There's like a new train off. I mean, increasingly you don't even fork. Like, I mean, you know, it's funny. Like, all of these things are very strange. We're in bizarro land right now. Like, we're in mid transition and like all of the transitions are not in distribution yet, which means, like, if you try to make a product right now and, you, you know, you ask it to estimate how long the agent is going to take to make it, it says human terms. So it'll be like, it'll take a human a month to do this. And then you have to ask it explicitly, well, how long are you going to take? And it's like, well, I'll probably take like 15 to 20 minutes.

Starting point is 02:54:45 And it's like literally across the board, like I am coding 90. Like my output in terms of like real products, not just lines of code, is like 90x that of what I did when I was in 2013. I made Post Haven that year. I made Bookface that year. And I was at a CEO conference last week at JPMorgan 100. And I was talking with a bunch of former tech, you know, very technical CEOs who like now are full manager mode. And like I was like, good news, man. It's time to come back.

Starting point is 02:55:20 You know, you're Peter Parker right now. Time to put on the Spider-Man suit because this is the time. And I was blowing their mind. And I'm like, they're like, oh, no, like, I shouldn't do this. It's not worth my time. And I was like, dude, it is worth your time. Like, you can still be the manager during the day. But by night, you can be Spider-Man or Batman.

Starting point is 02:55:39 Like, you can don the suit and- Pull out the G-stack. I love it. Yeah, pull out the G-stack. There you know. And my pitch to them was like, look, I am 90 times. I am 90 of myself. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:55:51 I'm really good-man-man-man-milating time. Yeah, that's remarkable. And, you know, you could have 90 of your, yourself working on things like tonight and be the CEO, right? It's fantastic. Well, you want a ton of people over in the chat. They were skeptical and they're very fired up. So thank you so much for coming on, trolling the haters.

Starting point is 02:56:13 Keep building. Keep shaping those lines of code. And we will talk to you soon. Have a good one. Goodbye. Let me tell you about Plaid. Plaid powers the app to use dispense, borrow, and invest, securely connecting bank accounts to move money, fight fraud,

Starting point is 02:56:28 and improve lending. now with AI. And we are running over time, but let's bring in our next guest, Brian from Corrieve is in the restroom waiting room. Sorry for keeping you so long. Thank you so much for taking the time to come talk to us on TBPN. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me on today. Of course. And could you introduce yourself and kind of take us through some of the news? I mean, there's so much going on, but I know that there's some big announcements more recently. Yeah, absolutely. My name is Brennan McB. I'm one of the co-founders of Corife. I'm the chief development officer. So I lead all things debt, equity, M&A, ventures for the business. This is where all the

Starting point is 02:57:05 money is raised within the organization. Yeah. And this new project, this new vehicle, how are you positioning it? How are you explaining to people who are familiar with Corweave as a stock that they can buy and they understand that you might use debt to finance, you know, the purchase of a facility? They're familiar with the mortgage. How are you introducing this product? Yeah. So this product is that we brought in the market about three years ago. Okay. And it was with our first facility, DDTL1. And what we've introduced today is the continuation of just continuing to build upon

Starting point is 02:57:40 and execute within that original product. We're effectively taking this GPU infrastructure along with revenue associated with the GPU in these long-term take or pay contracts, put them together, and then take them out into the debt market and finance them. And I would say it's a financing strategy that, has occurred across many different sectors, right? Like, this is how LNG facilities or powerplanes get financed, right? You have the infrastructure in one hand.

Starting point is 02:58:08 You have these long-term contracts in the other hand and put them together, marry them, and you can stand up very scalable financing mechanisms around it. What's really important about the one that we announced yesterday, this is our largest transaction at $8.5 billion. Wow. And it's our first transaction being done. Thank you. It's awesome.

Starting point is 02:58:30 It's a big moment. Huge number, massive. You know, sometimes like forget the numbers that we're working sometimes. And it was done at an investment-grade cost of capital. So this was done at SOFA plus 225 or, you know, approximately 5.9% cost capital, which is incredibly important to us, given the capital-intensive nature of our business. And what gave the market, what gave the rating agency or you the confidence to put this in the investment grade bucket, how are you providing the data in the back and the

Starting point is 02:59:06 and like the backbone of that strength? Yeah. To your point, this all comes down to market validation. Yeah. The clear signal out there is pricing and confidence grows as cost of capital comes down, right? It doesn't really work the other way. So being able to drive down cost of capital here just shows the amount of demand there is for core weave credit products in the market.

Starting point is 02:59:33 How much of this is, how important was sort of beating the depreciation gate allegations to put it sort of silly? But a lot of people were wondering, like, oh, those, those H-100s, they're not going to, they're not going to age well. And what we've seen is that there's a lot of data points out there that seems like older, they're aging like fine wine from what we've seen. But take me through your, do you always know that that was, going to play out the way? Was there any unexpected surprise to the upside? And then how important

Starting point is 03:00:04 has it been to have more data about how these GPUs monetize over a longer length of time? The depreciation subject has always been very interesting to us. We've been very consistent. Six years is the depreciable life of this infrastructure. And I would say, if anything, we're expecting for the infrastructure to have useful life beyond six. I mean, you see that today in like late 2010 skews that are available in market on clouds. They're not running, that infrastructure unprofitably. Yeah. Right.

Starting point is 03:00:32 And it means that there's client demand for it. But as we look towards like Ampier and Hopper generations, you know, I think in our last earnings, we've noted that our pricing on Ampere went up during 2025. And our pricing on Hopper stayed within 10% or so where we started the year. Why is that happening? I think it's largely driven by inference, right? And ultimately this concept that not every workload only needs. the latest, greatest piece of compute, right?

Starting point is 03:01:01 Which were incredibly well known for running, but, you know, there are different types of workloads that need different types of infrastructure. And the market is simply efficiently pairing the right compute with, with the workload that they need. So we see incredibly robust demand all the way back to the Ampere generation, which I believe is six years old at this point from its original skew launch date. And we're really not seeing any deterioration of these older. skewed demand profiles, while also seeing accelerating demand for latest generation infrastructure

Starting point is 03:01:35 as well. I think everyone's heard the stories of electricians being flown around in private jets and kind of the chaos of actually building out data centers over the last two years. Any funny stories from the core weave team recently around all the effort. Yeah, on all the effort going into building out these clouds. Yeah, it would take a lot of private planes to fly all those electricity around. I mean, we're talking hundreds to thousands of engineers on these sites. And, you know, I think that's, it's a great point you raised because I believe it's an

Starting point is 03:02:12 underappreciated aspect of what is being done here in the true scale of the engineering effort out there in market. Like, you truly just have to go see one of these sites, right? They are massive, massive engineering feats that are being executed on with an incredibly intense supply chains all the while moving in an extremely high velocity technology sector. It really boils down to risk management, which is the DNA of our management team. It feels like in terms of inference demand, we've seen a number of sort of exponential jumps when we went from LLMs to reasoning models, the number of tokens generated to answer a question increased

Starting point is 03:02:57 exponentially, saw something similar with agents, coding agents. Are you guiding or expecting for just a smooth trend to continue? Are you thinking that this is more discontinuous? Is there some sort of next, next generation that you're already looking forward to in terms of increased inference demand? It's really hard to predict where the technology goes since the technology itself is meant to be so disruptive. I think what super important for us is our client base. And our clients represent the organization that are at the front lines of pushing this technology as far as it can go. And we're consistently supporting them. And it gives us this really interesting information flow, understanding where they're going

Starting point is 03:03:47 in their organization so that we can be orienting ours to be moving with them in lockstep. What do people misunderstand most about Corweaf right now? I would see there's three real pillars to our success. It is having the best product in the market for running this infrastructure. Our product is purpose built for AI and supports today the leading AI organizations on the planet. You have to have the right physical infrastructure capacity, the ability to navigate the supply chain. Right. And that is not something anyone can just stand up and do.

Starting point is 03:04:26 It's incredibly challenging and detailed. But today we have over 43 data centers in an active operation. That's a key component of how we've been able to pull down our cost of capital so aggressively is just simply through execution. And that final piece is financing. You can have pieces one and two, but if you can't raise the capital needed, to bring that infrastructure online, it's sort of meaningless. And so we've spent an immense amount of time focused on the credit market and driving an ability to navigate it effectively and scalably while driving down our cost of capital.

Starting point is 03:05:12 And thus why this instrument that we announced yesterday is so incredibly important to us and will serve as a blueprint for future transactions. Are you in a rough agreement with the broad consensus that I'm feeling in the AI industry around a chip bottleneck being more of a gating factor in scaling AI progress over the next four years than power constraints? You know, I would qualify it as cloud-connected infrastructure, incredibly important. So it's really marrying power with chips, getting them online, delivered to client. that bottleneck within there is delivering powered shell capacity, at least within our business, right? We can bring online more capacity to our clients as we have more powered shell within the market.

Starting point is 03:06:05 So we're consistently scouring the market for incremental capacity to be able to market to our consumers. How have the sort of mom and pop data centers done over the last two years? talking about people maybe like 18 months ago that that we're realizing, hey, this AI thing is going to be pretty big. We have, we can find some power here. Let's throw up a shell. Let's get some GPUs and try to bring it online. How have they fared? Because I think there was a lot of, there's obviously so much demand, but a lot of there were a lot of question. Yeah, yeah. Just just somebody saying like, hey, we can get some power here. Let's jump on this.

Starting point is 03:06:44 How have they fared it? I imagine some of them end up being kind of rolled in to, a platform like CoreWeave or the other Neo-Clouds or they end up. But how have they fared? You know, it's really tough to comment on their businesses. We don't see them in market too frequently. I think our product looks a lot different than the other offerings that are available out there.

Starting point is 03:07:09 Well, yeah, and these people were like, oh, it's like real estate. You just put up a box, there are some GPUs in it. And I would say like, no one, no one, none of the leading neoclux, are saying like, oh, it's just like real estate. You just like throw up a box. So there was that disconnect there. I would agree with that. There is a chasm of execution between, you know, signing a contract to deliver

Starting point is 03:07:35 infrastructure and actually bringing it online and making it revenue generating. And that's where the core wheat product sits. Well, it's fantastic progress. Thank you so much for coming and breaking it down for us. Yeah, great to me. Appreciate it. Great to meet you guys. Thank you.

Starting point is 03:07:48 on the deal. We'll talk to you soon. That's your one. Goodbye. Let me tell you about Gemini 3.1 Pro with a more cable-able baseline. It's great for super complex tasks like visualizing difficult concepts, synthesizing data into a single view, or bringing creative projects to life. Tyler, do you know how to count cards in poker?

Starting point is 03:08:06 In poker? In poker. Do you know how to count cards? No. You have exactly one day to learn because you have to go to Sam Blan's Monaco, Invitational. you have to bring home the $100,000 cash prize. You got to win. It's a no buy-in poker tournament.

Starting point is 03:08:22 It's counting cards a thing in poker? That's for Blackjack. No? You're going to learn how to apply counting cards from Blackjack to poker. You're going to invent new card counting technology. I think it does work in, oh, maybe you're right in Blackjack. Maybe it doesn't work in poker. I think it does work in poker.

Starting point is 03:08:43 Anyway, you're going to learn, you're going to cheat and you're going to win. That's the plan. You're going to cheat. You're going to win. You're going to get thrown out of Monaco. You're going to get thrown out of San Francisco. Sam Blod will be putting hands on you. But it would be a good time.

Starting point is 03:08:55 But it would be a good time. Put out an article that says the Artemis Moon Base project is legally dubious. Okay. Kane says, oh, no, someone called the Moon Police. Oh, well, we have our next guest in the Restream waiting room. Let me tell you about MongoDB first. MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market, your business on MongoDB.

Starting point is 03:09:15 Don't just build it. Own the data platform that powers it. And without further ado, you have Sam from Corzone. Welcome to the stream. Thank you so much for taking the time. How you doing? All right. Great, great setup.

Starting point is 03:09:26 Great background. Looks great. Great polo. Nailed it across the board. But we'll let you introduce yourself. I don't look like you guys. Well, white. I don't look at.

Starting point is 03:09:36 Markets up. I got the memo. So we're all in white. Yeah, we're happy. How are you doing? Please introduce yourself and the group. Fun. Hi.

Starting point is 03:09:44 I'm Sam Yegan, co-founder of Corzone Capital. Yeah. spent most of my life as a founder, SparkNotes, OKCupid, involved with Tinder, Grindr. So, you know, hopefully got you through school and hopefully got you some dates. And now investing in the future of consumer AI. Do you want to focus on the dating market with this fund? Do you think that there's opportunities for new platforms in AI? Yeah, I mean, the biggest question I have for you is, are you surprised that we're, you know, a few years into the AI boom?

Starting point is 03:10:14 and when you look at the top 25 chart in the app store, it's still like pretty much just LLMs and incumbent, you know, consumer products. Yeah. Yeah, that's going to change. I think the entire consumer stack is going to get rebuilt. I think the incumbents, most of the consumer incumbents are at risk. I do think dating is a pretty protected category because you need liquidity. It's a network effect.

Starting point is 03:10:38 The big apps are always the big apps. Yeah. But I think for almost everything else, I think the way we message each other, I think the way we connect with each other. I think the way we find jobs, the way we find friends. I think all that's going to change and it's going to be AI powered. At the same time, so on a relative basis, isn't there maybe counterintuitively more opportunity if you're building a consumer AI, if you go into something that needs a liquidity pool,

Starting point is 03:11:02 like the dating market, and you can maybe use AI or just come up with a unique wedge, get over the cold start problem, get some liquidity on the platform, and then maybe you're better positioned because you can't be fast followed by a copycat that's just like cloning all your features because they won't have liquidity, but you do. If you can get past the cold start problem, that's right. But I actually think in the case of dating, I think the incumbents are much better positions to leverage AI. But I think there are lots of other places where, and I'm surprised so many VCs are running from consumer right now. But I think AI is going to change, transform the way consumers interact with technology in a way that, you know, has never

Starting point is 03:11:42 happened since the dawn of the internet itself. Yeah. So we talk about some opportunities. Yeah, well, I mean, I wanted to ask, like, what are, what are you actually looking for in an early stage consumer founder? Because it's very rare, you know, your case, you've had like multiple big hits. It's hard enough to have one. In my consumer, you know, the random consumer tech investments that I've made, doesn't matter if I'm investing, you know, pre-product or after they've gotten to a million users, they usually end up as zeros. So it's an absolutely brutal game. Welcome to Venture Capital.

Starting point is 03:12:18 Well, and I would just say, like, the handful of zeros that I've had of, like, you know, concentrated in consumer. Yeah. I do think consumer tends to be much more variable than B2B businesses. You tend to either find product market fit and find a way to scale or you don't. It's very hard to end up, I think, in the middle range in consumer businesses, which I think is why it's so attractive as a venture capital investment. If you can get them right, you get them really right. And that's what we're looking for. You asked about founders. I think AI founders are no

Starting point is 03:12:50 different from your previous types of founders. In the early stage, we're really looking for founders who understand the process of finding product market fit. That's all that matters in the early stage. And I actually think AI can be a little bit deceptive that way, because you can get the first few users to adopt because people are so curious right now. But I don't think that means you've necessarily found product market fit, that's scalable in the way that it used to be much harder to get that first million users, and I think it's a little easier to do that now. Totally. Yeah, just this year I've seen, like, the exciting kind of one aspect of why now is, I think, exciting to make a consumer fund is you're just seeing like a thousand X

Starting point is 03:13:32 the number of apps. I'm talking to a family friend later today that's like, you know, built their own, built their own app, right? They're very excited about it. They want to they want to get my feedback. And I just think there's so many people that were kind of gated by not having access to engineering talent or didn't know how to code themselves. And now they're building apps. So I think, like, the bar, the bar is going to go up pretty dramatically. I wanted to ask, like, do you think there is room for, like, taking, like, the capital

Starting point is 03:14:03 intensivity of deep tech and bringing it to consumer? And I'm specifically asking because of, like, TikTok. TikTok spent how many billions of dollars on customer acquisition. They had a product with product market fit. They did some interesting things around kind of juicing engagement from at least my point of view. But then they also spent like hundreds of millions or billions of dollars on acquiring users. Is that something that you think you'll see in the fund in some kind of breakout companies? Yeah, I think that's a great and very nuanced point that you make, which is, are AI companies going to be more effective?

Starting point is 03:14:39 at acquiring customers or not. And I think AI hasn't really, you know, your example earlier about an AI-based dating app, you just kind of assumed you'd get over the cold start problem, but you can really explain how you were going to do that. And so I don't think, I don't think, other than there's a little bit more word of mouth early on because people are so curious about any new AI app, I don't think any, you know, they've really figured out how to leverage AI differently to scale these apps. And so I do think your point about bringing some of the capital and

Starting point is 03:15:09 I do think that will all be reduced, but I don't know if it's going to be reduced on the marketing side specifically, for sure on the engineering side. Okay. So, yeah, does that change anything about the investment strategy when I hear 100 million fund? I have some conception of the type of checks at various stages that you might write. But do you think there will be anything about running a $100 million fund in 2026 that will be different if I just look at the size of checks and spaces that you're occupying versus, you know, five. 10 years ago. Yeah. I think people are going to have to spend a lot less of that early capital building the infrastructure.

Starting point is 03:15:45 Yeah. Getting the code written. I mean, when I started SparkNotes, we had to go lease servers and plug them in in, you know, COLO facilities back in the 1900s. Yeah. Right now you're going to be able to get, you're going to get your app into the app store so much cheaper. And the real, the real separation among founders is going to be, can you really figure

Starting point is 03:16:02 out product market fit? It's not going to be about writing the code. It's not going to be about doing the marketing. It's about can you actually build a product that consumers love. And that's really what we know how to underwrite here at Corazon and what I've done throughout my career. Consumers love and has positive unit economics because we're seeing this whole other dynamic right now where there's products that people love. But if they were actually charging as much, you know, I'm thinking like image image and video gen products where, you know, if you actually price it the way you would need to be building a business, you know, would the demand still be there? And if you think about, you know, when the Internet started, the beauty.

Starting point is 03:16:38 was that everything became free to publish. And so you had all, the first business model that came out was like Spark Notes, just take Cliffs notes and make it free. And tons and tons of companies did that. And now you actually have marginal costs associated with, you know, the tokens and the, and the AI that you're using. And so now all of a sudden, for the first time, you have cost of goods sold in a consumer tech business, which has really never happened before.

Starting point is 03:17:00 And so that's one thing that founders aren't necessarily thinking about so much is what the end unit economics are. But I don't worry about that early stage. I worry about let's make a product people love and let's figure out the business model later. What have you learned about pivoting? That all the best founders have to pivot multiple times. It's very rare that you hit the product on the head, you know, the very first time you do it. And I think that's why.

Starting point is 03:17:26 Any memorable, any memorable pivots, you know, across your founder journey? Yeah, I mean, we, you know, the original idea for Spark Notes was a humor site that, was very much like the onion. It's probably older than you. Yeah, it was called the Spark.com. In fact, the corporate name for Sparknotes was the Spark.com. It was a humor site. And then we kind of realized that that was a crappy business to be in.

Starting point is 03:17:50 For jokes. I love The Onion. And I love SparkNet. Yeah. We basically tried to knock off the onion first. We realized that was a really crappy business to be in. And then we pivoted to do study guides. And that ended up being the business.

Starting point is 03:18:02 How did you think this is an odd question? I'm not sure to be aggressive because I loved Spark It helped me through the high school. But how did you think about like the moral implications of potentially like helping you cheat? Because we just went through this like moral reckoning in Silicon Valley last year around Cluelly, this company that was like very, very, you know, in the marketing, like cheat on everything, very aggressive about that. I don't remember SparkNotes ever marketing to me as like cheat. It was very much like supplemental additional.

Starting point is 03:18:33 Sometimes, you know, I'd read the Spark Notes chapter instead of the full chapter if I was running later or laid on. sleep or wanted to hang out with some friends. But how did you process like the tradeoff or like the impact of that business? That's such a funny question. Here's the thing. People who want to cheat are going to cheat. Yeah. And so what we focus on is let's make the best product, both for the people who want to get A's because they're doing the work. Yeah. And if you're going to cheat, you might as well actually learn something in the process. And so we, we didn't give you the paper that you could turn in. We gave you the best path to learn the material. And honestly, you know, if you didn't read Romeo and Juliet, but read the spark note.

Starting point is 03:19:08 You probably understood the book. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's probably better rather than, and I think CliffsNotes never really did that. Cliffs notes was always about just trying to get you through. Sure. And we really tried to make sure that you learned what you were doing. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:19:19 Yeah. Did you ever think about like deliberately how you position it in the marketing piece? You clearly had that philosophy, but you could have had the choice to like flyer college campus with like cheat. And like maybe that would draw people's attention. Did you ever think about like click baiting, rage baiting, any of that? No, no. In fact, our approach is the opposite, which is try to actually get the teachers to recommend us as the preferred study guide. So there were a bunch of teachers who would write us and say, hey, I've told my students you can't use Cliffs Notes, but you can use Spark Notes.

Starting point is 03:19:49 Interesting. And then now all of a sudden you've got the teachers endorsing you because you've made the better product. Yeah. And so what seems like a cheating product gets repositioned as a study aid, and that's really what we wanted to. Yeah, and now teachers are. But look, there are moral questions. There are moral questions in every business. Of course.

Starting point is 03:20:02 How do you think about investing in anything? kind of education focused when it feels like LMs are just naturally quite good at that. But still, there's possibilities to build harnesses and stuff with the application layer. No, no. I think AI is going to transform the way we learn for sure. There's a company we're invested in called Brilliant, which is an native AI tutor. And in the 1900s, you had a graphing calculator. You know, that was your like, you know, to get through high school.

Starting point is 03:20:35 And I think the next generation of kids, you're going to have your personalized AI tutor that's going to get you through school. And we're funding that in our fund. Yeah, yeah. It's very funny. I completely agree with your intuition that like, oh, AI has already solved education. But then you look at like, under and Carpathie is building something in that space, which is just like a fascinating. Because like he has the most insight and has worked at Open AI and Tesla. I wonder if there's, I wonder if there's actually like an AI hardware device specifically for learning.

Starting point is 03:21:04 because like think about the chat. Like if a kid is sitting there and they're like trying to use their phone to learn but I could ask it about anything. But then you're getting a push notification from your friends, right? There's potentially some of these AI hardware devices that have flopped because they were trying to replace the phone

Starting point is 03:21:19 or maybe replacing it in the wrong context and you should be thinking like what is the next TIA for that every student has that they're actually you know learning. That's cool. Cool. Well, congratulations of the fundraise. We want to ring the gong for you. It would be an honor.

Starting point is 03:21:34 Oh. Thank you. Good stuff. Great stuff. Well, hopefully get many of your founders on in the coming weeks, months and years. And we'll talk to you soon. Great time. Thanks, guys.

Starting point is 03:21:49 Have a good rest of your day. I'll talk to you later. Deep into the fourth hour. Deep into the fourth hour. We got a one hour countdown. We're coming up on one hour, one minute, 14 seconds until the launch. We have an interesting post from Andrew Reed. Andrew Reed, sharing on the 50th anniversary of Apple, the investment memo.

Starting point is 03:22:12 This is the victory lap of all victory labs for a venture capitalist, writing $600,000 into on a piece of paper. On a piece of paper. And there are some handwritten notes on here. It said, we'll be tough to do this deal, small amount, minuscule, high price, second position. CMS wants to guarantee. It's a very interesting document.

Starting point is 03:22:34 Proposed financing structure. 600K to A and 60K to AG friends and company, 480 to one venture investor, invitees Venrox Julian, Julian Weiser says 600K buys 10%. Very rich deal. I'm used to buying 60% for my 600K. It's actually a crazy, crazy lore. Well, if you need something to do, it's not out yet, but maybe tomorrow if you need some kill some time. Donald has made a, documentary about a bunch of friends of the show. Will DePue and Riley Walls and the creators of the J-Mail suite. It's an attempt to capture what it feels like to be a young person in San Francisco right now. He's dropping that tomorrow so you can go check it out. We have one last video to play

Starting point is 03:23:23 for you today. Let's pull this up. Production team. What you got? It is in the chat for you. We also need to send profanity warning. Oh, profanity warning. Apparently someone was swearing on CNN. Let's get the audio on. Okay. Cover your ears. Why do you want to be here? Why do you love space? Why do you love being a part of history?

Starting point is 03:23:43 We're going back to the freaking moon. This kid rocks. I'm glad I warned everyone. I'm glad. It was worth it. We don't normally do it, but we're in the fourth hour. And we got to sneak one in because it doesn't hit without it. So sorry for the profanity.

Starting point is 03:24:06 But that is a fantastic moment, and we're very excited for the launch, which is happening in just one hour. So you can head over to NASA's livestream, YouTube, Twitch, probably other places, and check it out. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, sign up for a newsletter at TBPN.com, and we will see you tomorrow. And we'll let him. Can't wait. Pacific. Goodbye.

TBPN Live - Eddy Cue Joins for Apple's 50th, Artemis Launch, Jamie Dimon's Plan, Save Snap Now, SpaceX IPO | Aaron Terrazas, Pratap Ranade, Abhishek Das, Garry Tan, Brannin McBee, Sam Yagan

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