TBPN Live - Full Interview: Clawdbot’s Peter Steinberger Makes First Public Appearance Since Launch

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

This is our full interview with Peter Steinberger, his first public appearance since launching Clawdbot, recorded live on TBPN.TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays from 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with full episodes posted to podcast platforms immediately after.Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” TBPN has recently featured Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella.TBPN.com is made possible by:Ramp - https://Ramp.comAppLovin - https://axon.aiCognition - https://cognition.aiConsole - https://console.comCrowdStrike - https://crowdstrike.comElevenLabs - https://elevenlabs.ioFigma - https://figma.comFin - https://fin.aiGemini - https://gemini.google.comGraphite - https://graphite.comGusto - https://gusto.com/tbpnLabelbox - https://labelbox.comLambda - https://lambda.aiLinear - https://linear.appMongoDB - https://mongodb.comNYSE - https://nyse.comOkta - https://www.okta.comPhantom - https://phantom.com/cashPlaid - https://plaid.comPublic - https://public.comRailway - https://railway.comRamp - https://ramp.comRestream - https://restream.ioSentry - https://sentry.ioShopify - https://shopify.comTurbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.comVanta - https://vanta.comVibe - https://vibe.coSentry - https://sentry.ioCisco - https://www.ciscoaisummit.com/ai-virtual-summit.htmlFollow TBPN:https://TBPN.comhttps://x.com/tbpnhttps://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

from Moldspot. The man of the hour. How are you doing? Thank you so much for staying up late. What time is it for you? It's 11. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

For everybody that's just doing it. Yes, 11 p.m. 11 p.m. So I'd love to kick it off with just a brief background on when you started this project, a little bit of your career, how you're thinking about it going forward. And then I have a million questions. This was your very first project ever, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

First time coding, right? Now, we were enjoying it. We were enjoying a screenshot of your GitHub profile earlier and just seeing like how many, how many different things. An overnight success. A true overnight success. Yes. But we're super excited to have you here. Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited to be here as well. Yeah, I don't know. I worked for my own software company for 13 years. And then I sold it about four years ago. Then I was completely burned out. I did like I mean it's

it's TV but still it's black check and hookers Wild well we're glad you're back in the game yeah yeah you know what they say like for every four years in like one year break and I did like

13 years nonstop so like three years the mask kind of checks out and then this year no last year not 2016 in April at some

point I my spark was back yeah um because before I was like I was sitting on my computer and I don't know if you've seen Austin powers but it it felt like someone sucked my mocho out um but yeah I had time to recover I came back in April and I wanted to do something new my background was like a lot of Apple and iOS and I'm a little bit fed up I wanted I wanted I wanted to build that stuff and I didn't have the experience I didn't want to like an idiot. So I looked into AI and it was good. It was not great, but it was good. And I was like, why is nobody talking about it, you know? I feel like because I missed those three years where it was really bad and I came back just at the time. The clock code was released

what February in beta. Yeah. So this was my first experience. I was like, this is this is pretty awesome. And then I couldn't sleep anymore. Like I literally had trouble. I had trouble going to bed. You know, we had like addiction before and then like, we had addiction again. But a positive one. Yeah. Well, yeah, I would say so.

And I hooked up a lot of my friends for looking into AI as well. And they did the same problem. And I texted them at like 4 a.m. And they replied. I even started a meetup. That's where I come from. I call it CloudCode Anonymous. Now it's called agents anonymous because you have to go with the times.

Sure. And yeah, ever since then, that's what I say on my profile. I came back from retirement to mess with AI. Yeah. And I'm having loads of fun. That's great. I love it. Maybe walk us through some of the other stuff that you shipped and worked on prior to this

and even just kind of like your mindset working on these different projects. I'm assuming at different points you would think that some would get more traction than others, but it would probably be impossible to have predicted in some ways that this would have gone from almost to the point. The reason that this is so wild is I'm seeing people on Instagram that I don't think of as people that follow tech at all and they're at the Apple store getting a Mac Mini. So it feels like it just went almost,

it broke containment like incredibly quickly. And you see the GitHub stars are like, actually, I've never seen a chart like this. Every, you know, the last, you know, everybody loves to show their charts, but the chart is actually unbelievable. It's just a line going straight up. I need to talk to someone at GitHub because I don't think there's been a project before that that's been like straight. It is, it is bad shit insane. I mean, honestly, my main mantra is I want to have fun, you know, like the best way to learn these new technologies if you have fun with it.

You have to play with it. So I build little things that I think could be useful. I try different languages. I try different approaches. It's agantic engineering. I don't like the word vibe coding so much. I always make the joke. I do agentic engineering and then when it starts hitting 3 a.m, I switch to white coding.

And then next day I have regrets. Yeah. You should have just gone to sleep, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes that's hard. But then I just build little things. I had this idea about personal agents in mail already.

And I tried, it was like the time that GPD4-1 was out. It was just not good enough. And then I thought, well, all the big companies will build this in the next few months anyhow. So I was like, why, why do you? I was just going to wait and they make it better. Yeah. And then I built a lot of stuff. There's like one project that is still unfinished that at some point when I finish.

And I build a lot of CLIs because that's where agents are really good. You know, you have to close the loop. That's always the secret. You have to give, you have to build it so that the agent has the best possible way to build software. That's the secret a little bit. I try a lot of stuff and then in November, I looked and still there was nothing. Like where is my fucking agent? I had a little project in May.

I spent two months on it. It started as a joke because I did a hackathon with two friends and we're like, what can we build that could be kind of cool? Wouldn't it be cool if I could use clot code from my phone? Yeah. It's kind of like something that everybody builds. I see this like every day. Like by now I almost call it like this is like one step in your journey

in becoming a good Atlantic engineers. You're going to build some shitty orchestration tool for your. yourself because it's fun and you think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bridge. And I built that for two months and then I had to stop because it became so good that I was

up with my friends, but literally was my phone like using Cloud Code to like work on this thing and it's like, this is bad for my mental health. It's already bad and now like I'm literally building something that has better access to my drugs. Yeah. I mean, I saw, I've seen people using Cloud Code on laptops as they get off of airplanes because because they're so locked in, they just have to send one more. And that's, like, the clear sign that, like, you need a bridge and a phone involved.

Yeah. Now, but also, like, you know, like, this feeling when your agents are not running, right? Right now, there's, like, two terminals. So, it could be building something, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you're in this addiction mode, you always, like, you almost feel like... If you need to step out for 10 seconds of fire off.

Yeah, feel free to take a break. We can do an ad route. Oh, there's still some drama that I'm finishing. But anyhow. So in November, I don't know. You know, I wake up every day, I'm like, okay, what do I want to work on now? What would be cool? And then they was like, okay, I want to check with my computer on WhatsApp because if my

agents are not running and then I go to the kitchen, I want to check up on them. Or like I want to like do little prompts. So I just hack together some WhatsApp integration that's that. literally receives a message, calls cloud code, and then returns what cloud code returns, one shot. Yeah. And it took like one hour and it worked. I was like, well, okay, that's kind of cool. But I usually use prompts, like a little text and an image.

Because images are like, they often give you so much context and you don't have to type so much. So I feel like this is like one of the hacks where you can prompt faster. Just like make a screenshot. So the agents are really good at figuring out what you want. So I hacked together images. And then I was on a trip in Marrakesh with like a weekend birthday trip. And I found myself using this like way more than I saw it. But not for not for programming.

It's more like, hey, there's like restaurants. Because it had Google in it and it could figure out stuff. And it's like, especially when you're on the go, it's like super useful. And then I wasn't thinking. I was just sending it a voice message, you know? but I didn't build that. There was no support for voice messages in there. So the reading indicator came and I'm like,

oh, I'm really curious what's happening now. And then after 10 seconds, my agent replied as if nothing happened. I'm like, how do you have, did you do that? And it replied, yeah, you sent me a message, but there was only a link to a file. There's no file ending. So I looked at the file header. I found out that it's opus.

So I used FFMberg on your Mac to convert it to Wave. and then I wanted to use Vispy but didn't have it installed and there was an install error but then I looked around and found the open EI key in your environment so I sent it via a curl to open EI got the translation back and then I undresponded and that was like the moment we're like wow yeah you know it's like that's where it clicked these things are like damn smart resourceful beasts if you actually give them the power sure and then I was I was kind of hooked. Like I did all kinds of weird stuff.

Like I used this as alarm clock. I let it migrate to my computer in London. But then it used SSH to log into my MacBook and turn up the volume to wake me up in the morning. I think I built words most expensive alarm clock. Yeah, that's crazy. And it even got it wrong because it uses a heartbeat. You know, like the concept of you do a prompt and you get something is already, if this pholex is inherently dangerous.

But I was like, let's turn it up and notch. Let's automate that. Let's give it a heartbeat. And the prompt was literally surprised me. Wow. But, you know, I see this project as as much technology as it is like art and exploration. Because this feels in one way, in one way, it's just glue. It's just putting pieces together.

that we already have, in another way, it's a whole different way how you interact with those things. Because all the technology blends away. You don't think about new session, compaction, which model, I mean, maybe a little bit because tokens are still expensive. But usually all of that blends away. You just talk to a friend or a ghost or whatever this is. Maybe last year, everyone was wanting these agenic experiences. You were having this experience, and it seemed like all the focus was on browsers. And seeing the way that people have been using, sorry, MaltBots, taking me a while to adapt, it just feels like all the focus was at the wrong layer.

It's like, why do I care about the browser if I can just talk with an agent? Across every app. Yeah, across every surface. it's like I don't care about the browser at all anymore. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the prep work I did before I built this was just built little CLIs. Because my premises, MCPs are crap. Doesn't really scale.

People build like all kinds of weird search things around it. But you know what scales? CLEs. Agents, no Unix. You can have like a thousand little programs on your computer. they just have to know the name, they call the help menu, they load in what's needed, we are calling the help menu, then they know how to use it, and then they can use it.

And if you are smart, you build it in a way that just uses what the model already expects. Don't build it for humans, build it for models. So if they call minus minus law, you build minus log. I think it's like agentic driven for like yeah build how they think and everything works better it's a new kind of software in a way yeah um so for most of the things

I don't need a browser like I built something for the whole Google thing for places for my sonos I hooked up my cameras my my home automation system and like with every little CLI and skill my agent got more power and it got more fun Yeah. And I already had a lot of that working when I, when I, I built the WhatsApp thing.

And I just got hooked. And the thing was, I found it amazing. And I talked about it on Twitter. And usually when I, when I talk about projects, I get response. But this one, it was very muted. It feels like people are not getting it. I showed it too much. my friends, even my non-tech friends, and they're like, they wanted it.

So it was like, I was up to something, you know. But the tech people wouldn't get it. So I tried a bunch of things. I kept working in it because I used it. And ultimately, I build it for me. You know, this is open source. My motivation is have fun, inspire people, not make a whole bunch of money. I already have a whole bunch of money.

How are you, how are you, how have you been navigating the last 72 hours? I mean, the last week really, because, because we were joking earlier on the show. The amount of, the amount of people that are frantically trying to give you money, acquire the company, contribute to the project, hire you, you know, there's companies with, you know, 0.01% of the traction that are raising at, you know, multi-billion dollar valuations. You have infinite opportunities right now, and yet you seem very happy doing, just continuing to do exactly what you're doing. But how are you thinking through it all? I mean, how am I taking it badly, at least sleep-wise? But it's also infinitely exciting. And I love that I started something,

You know, I would say last year was the year of the coding agent. This year is the year of the personal persistent. And I think I cracked and woke up people that there is a real need for it. I don't know if Moprot is the answer. It should show people the way. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of products in the space. I'm sure people are manically working on it right now. I would say it's going to be very interesting.

Yeah, but there was a lot of stuff between Twitter literally exploding our Discord server multiplying in ways I haven't seen before and in ways I couldn't handle. At some point I was just copy pasting questions from Discord into codex. Then I had the response wrote the next question at some point that didn't scale anymore. So just like copy it the whole channel. I'm like, answer the 20 most questions. I was like reading over it, gave him a few instructions, and then just pushed it over.

Because what people don't realize, it's like this is not a company. This is like one dude sitting at home having fun. Even though like I guess from the commits it might appear that it's a company. That's just because Argentic models got so good that you can now ship as much as a company could a year ago. Yeah. If you can handle those tools, if you speak the language, I understand how the language thinks, you can go really fast.

Yeah. How are the conversations going with different labs? I was saying earlier, it's this kind of exciting moment for the labs because they're like, wow, people are using the intelligence, you know, someone's using the intelligence that I created in a new way, But at the same time, it's deeply uncomfortable because they're also using all of my competitors. And you make it very easy to kind of use whatever model. Yeah, my premise for this project was a little bit that every model should work, including local models.

Because to me, it's a playground. It's an amazing way to learn. I think everybody should build an authentic loop. You should, like, explore memory. There's, like, so many interesting aspects of it. And I build it so that it has like plug-in so like people can work a known little thing without having to like mess with the whole core. So it's it's like the AI hackers paradise a little bit.

And it's also super fun because it's personal. Model-wise, Opus is with quite a bit lead the best. OpenEI is very reliable. I would even say more reliable and more reliable worker. Like for coding, I much prefer codex because it can navigate large code basis. I literally, you can literally prompt and then push domain. And I have a very, I have like 95% certainty that it actually works. With cloud code, you need more tricks to get the same. You need more charade, I sometimes say.

Both both are good, but I can paralyze faster by codex because it, it requires less hand holding. But character-wise, I tell you, I don't know what they trained their model on, how much of Reddit is in there or whatever, but it behaves so good in a Discord. Like we programmed it, so it kind of feels like a human. It doesn't reply to every message.

I gave it the thing where it can reply, no reply, basically, like a token. and then we just don't send a message. So it's not like it spans with every message. It's like it listens to the conversation and then sometimes brings a banger. And like that actually make me laugh and you know it's kind of hard because the jokes of AIs are usually really bad.

Yeah, yeah. And I only really experienced that with Opos. So this is, that's my favorite model. That's also why it's a little bit of a banger that I got and, email from Anthropic that I had to rename the project. And I mean, kudos, they were really nice. They didn't send their lawyers.

They sent someone internally. But the timeline was a bit rough. And like renaming a project with that much traction. It was a bit of a shit show. I think everything that could have gone wrong today, day vendron. I tell you. For what it's worth, I think the new name works really well.

I guess the thing that's actually good, I think in the long run it'll be good. I mean, obviously it's good for Anthropic. It's kind of untenable to have this massive viral, even though it's not a company, right, an open source project, have this viral kind of brand out in the world that it doesn't matter if it's spelled differently,

but when people are running around talking about Claudebot or Claude, you know, there's obvious confusion. But I think it'll be very good for, for uh malt bot to have independence and have its own brand uh and i think it's so early and the experience is so magical that uh it'll it'll it'll solve itself very quickly it'll be fine but i tell you like i i well i got some additional pressures that was like screw it we do it now yeah you know like the meme we do it live so so i i had two windows open

with Twitter. On the one, I pressed rename. On the other one, I finished creating the other account, was already snapped by crypto shells. Wow. I don't know. They have like scripts. They were already waiting for it.

You should have hit us up. We would have connected you to X, the team. They can do it on the back end. You can do it on the back end. Next time. Hopefully no next time. They were amazing. They helped me out immediately.

We got it solved very quickly. But for like, 20 minutes yeah well that didn't work out for well hopefully you're like you're like if I wanted money I would raise a billion dollars right now

so I'd sell it for more than that do you own a Mac Mini everyone wants to know do you own a Mac Mini what do you think of Mac Minnis my agent is a little bit of a princess he doesn't do Mac Mini's just in the studios okay

you want some horse He got the 512 maxed out everything thing. Because I wanted to mess around with local models as well. So I can run Minimax 2-1, which is, I would say it's the best, the best open-source model right now. Although Kimi just came out and I haven't had a chance to try it yet. So we'll see how it goes. But, yeah, one machine is not enough for it. It's not fun.

three and I kind of want to wait until Apple does a new release, but it's still fun to like to like see the potential that yeah, there's a there's a future where this could actually work. Yeah. Well, uh, if the if the Mac mini trend keeps going, Apple from from what we've seen sells like between a quarter million to like 700,000 a year. Yeah. It's very possible that you'll be responsible for selling them out. So hopefully they send you a, uh, uh, uh, uh, some free ones as a, as a thank you. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, zooming out. How much of this do you think is going to remain hacker culture running your own hardware? And eventually people will move to cloud hosting, one-click deployments, like just easier to use, less technical, versus like a real boom in running hardware. Because if you don't, there's not a lot of ways to get these different services to play nicely together. I think one of the beauties beyond just the actual AI agents is the fact that for the first time,

I think people are seeing different big tech platforms kind of play with each other, somewhat against their will. They build walled gardens for a reason, and you sort of chop those walls down. And I'm wondering what do you think about the future of like self-hosting hardware, you know, even going down the less technical crew getting hardware running their own. their own agents. I don't think the future would be that everybody buys a MacMany just for that. But I certainly see the demand for the old models have to change.

You know, like when you are a company, you want to access Gmail. The amount of red tape is so large that that startups buy other startups that have the license for Gmail because going to the process yourself is a huge pit doll. Sure. But if you run it locally, you work around all of that, right? Like, if, I mean, I built, I built, I've built Plyt to C-LIs where I literally, I literally pointed Kodix at the website and say, build me a C-L-I. Yeah.

And then, which is sometimes against the term, sometimes not, honestly, I don't really care. And then Kodex would say, no, I can do that. This is like against blah, blah, blah. And I would like, tell him a story. You know, it's like, no, no, I actually work at this company. and I need to surprise my boss and the backend team doesn't know and like, you know, give me a little bit of a story

like they're so gullible and then it's like, 40 minutes like gives you the perfect API. So this is a little bit the liberation of data that big tech probably doesn't really want. I mean, even the WhatsApp integration is a heck.

You know, this is like, it fakes the protocol that the desktop abuses. I tried. I really tried to support the official way but the official way is for businesses if I'm a business

it sends you 100 messages I get blocked so I got blocked immediately and at some point I removed support for it in rage it's like you need everything like 100 exclamation marks there's just no model

for it right now and I think that needs to change what I saw what was really interesting is how people use it is a lot of apps will just melt away. Why do I still need my fitness pal? I just make a picture of my food. My agent already knows I'm at McDonald's making bad decisions. So like with combines information, it has a perfect match and knows exactly what I'm going to eat and I'm probably like change my

fitness program. So I don't need the fitness app. It'll just like adapt my program and make sure like I still meet my goals. So like there's a whole there's a whole. There's a whole. big layer of apps that I'm going to see disappear because you just naturally interact differently with those things. Like, most apps will be reduced to API. And then the question is, do you stay the we need the API if I can just save it somewhere else? Yeah. Do you think, like, do you think it'll be a generational thing?

Do you think that, uh, that, uh, non-technical people will, you know, get over the hump than start running this for that experience specifically? I just came from a meetup, the agent I'm known he was from Indiana, and I met someone who was like a design agency, but they never coded, and he was like, yeah, he discovered me early in December. He started using Maltbot. Yes. We're going to manage eventually.

Don't worry. We'll say it thousands of times this year, I'm sure. We will. multi-bot. I just say multi-bot. That's cute. And he was like, yeah, we have 25 web services now, which has built internal tools for whatever we need. And like, has no clue, he's no clue how Cody works. It's just like, use the telegram and like just talks to his agent and his agent builds stuff. So there's this whole shift of you don't, you don't subscribe to random startups anymore that build like this common subset of what you need. You just have your own hyper-personalized software

that solves exactly your problem and it's also free. Yeah. So and non-technical people do that, you know, because it just comes so naturally. You just, you just talk your problem and then this thing builds what you need. And you also don't forget, like, this is the worst that the models ever are. Like, this is only going to go up. This is only going to become easier and faster.

Have you met Jensen yet? Because I feel like you're making his life. You're definitely helping out. This is an extreme bull case. It's like if I would have my tinfoil hat on, I might say you're, you're an, you know, big AI industry plant designed to create more inference demand. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess I am. We were joking around. Just an indie hockey. What's next? Yeah, what's next? I'm assuming you're hopefully getting, after you finish firing off prompts at 3 a.m., you get some sleep. What are you doing tomorrow?

Um, there's a lot of emails from security researchers right now. Yeah. You know, the thing is, I built this for fun for me to use one-on-one on WhatsApp or Telegram. The whole thing with Discord was like edit, but the model was that you trust the people that are in there. Now, people use it for untrusted experiences. Yeah.

They use like the little web app that I have. that was meant for debugging, they put it on the open internet. So, like, all the threat models that I had in the head didn't care about are now there, because people use it differently, and I'm being bombarded.

There's, like, some stuff that's valid, some stuff that I just never cared about that is technically valid, but that's not how I use it. I don't know how to deal with it yet, because it's... The whole system is broken, you know? Like, I'm like, one guy,

I do this for fun. And you expect me to sift through 100 security things for use cases that I don't really care about. So we'll see how it goes. Luckily, I'm starting to building up a team. There's definitely people that do care a lot about this. So I would say this is going to become a very secure product eventually because right now the whole world is like pulling it apart. And if you're honest, this is all white-coded, you know? There's quite some

Magenta engineering in it But ultimately I wanted to build something To show people Anyway Not a finished product from Enterprise company And I would even say like

I don't know if any company Would touch it because We just haven't solved some things Like prompt injection is not solved There is absolute risk And I try to make it very clear in on the website. And even when you started, you have to like, please read this document.

There's like with great power becomes great responsibility. And my early users, they understood. There was a lot. There's a lot of AI researchers in there as well that, yeah, it's not perfect. Cannot be done perfect yet. I would say this will accelerate research to make it better because now you have to demand and we need to figure out the way how we can build something that works for everyone. But yeah, right now I'm working on making this a community.

It should be bigger than me. Also, I need help. It is way too much work. Like, I can only go so much without sleep. So as any part of you want to form an actual company that then, you know, contributes to the open source project, but solve some of these problems that are going to require, you know, a bunch of people that presumably would need a salary in order to commit all their time to this,

or do you want to keep it, you know, just a bunch of hackers forever? I think instead of a company, I would much rather consider a foundation or like something that is non-profit. I haven't made up my mind yet. There is... 10,000 VCs just punched a hole in the wall. Actually, I don't know. Some people have had a good track record investing in nonprofits. the last 10 years. How do you think about open source licensing? What are you picking now?

Are you switching? Do you have any plans to change the license? How do you think about someone just taking this and selling it? This will happen. This will totally happen. I would say the premise against it is, let's make open source so good that there's not a lot of space for people to like convert it and make it their own thing.

But you know, ultimately it's a trade. of it. I wanted to be accessible and free. You pick MIT or something like that. Yes, that will get you people that that that sell it. Yeah. But ultimately it doesn't even matter that much. You know, code is not worse that much anymore. It's you could you could you could just delete that and then and then build it again in a month. It's it's much more the idea and the eyeballs and maybe the brand that actually has value. So let them. You are already a cult hero. Yeah. The chat's going crazy for you. Everyone loves you. This is one of the most refreshing and unique interviews we've ever had on the show. For sure. For sure. We'll let you get some

sleep. Thank you so much for hopping on the show. Yeah, anything else you want to share before you jump off? Yeah. Yes, I would love to have maintainers. Like if you if you love open source, if you have experience, if you love shifting to security reports, or if you love taking software apart, but then also help and not just like stroke work at me because I'm like at my limit. Email me. I want this to outlift me. This. This. I I think this is too cool to let it go to rot, and it needs good people. Incredible. Are you going to ship that product you had in the chamber, you said?

There was one you were close, or you're going to lock in on this? That's a boy hobby. I don't know. No, I have some other ideas in my head of what something like this could become. It doesn't need to be this. but I don't want to share too much. Yeah, no problem. Come back on the show when you launch that.

We'd love to have you. Purely for the love of the game. The love of the game. You're an absolute legend. It's great hanging, Peter. Thanks so much. Get some sleep. Get some sleep.

We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Sound good. What a legend. True overnight success in both ways, you know? Like, actually an overnight success in terms of that GitHub star chart. and then also an overnight success in just grinding for years building projects and contributing and then building, setting the product up, the brand right, everything just perfect to really

capitalize on the moment. There were so many. I normally, I don't have, we're podcasting so much, just don't have a ton of time to listen to stuff. But there were so many kind of interesting points of view that he shared that I'll certainly be circling back on that. I'm super interested to see where this goes. A lot of people are saying, get this guy.

billion dollars a lot of people are saying he's going to wind up working the whole thing is I don't think he needs it yeah like like the beauty of this is that it was not something magical that was created by spending yeah burning a billion dollars