TBPN Live - Siri Needs an App, Apple Preps for Post-Cook, Scott Nolan Truth Nuke | Shervin Pishevar, Horacio Rozanski, Glenn Fogel, JD Ross, Nick Fleisher, Rob Slaughter, Sajith Wickramasekara

Starting point is 00:00:00 watching TVPN. Today is Tuesday, January 13, 2026. We are live from the TVPN Ultradome. The Temple of Technology, the Fortress of Finance, the capital to gap. That's correct, Bobby Cosmic. There are eight guests today. We might have actually have nine. Let's pull up the linear lineup. We got Shervin Pischvar coming on the show to give us an update on what's happening around the world. Glenn Fogel, Horatio from Booz Allen. coming on the show. We're talking about AI and the enterprise in the consulting world. J.D. Ross is coming back for With Coverage. We got some news there. Sandstone has some fundraising news. Our Lambda Lightning Round is going to be popping off and then we're capping it off with Scott Nolan

Starting point is 00:00:48 in person breaking down, dropping a truth nuke on the state of nuclear power. Don't forget about Bob Slaughter. Bob Slaughter. That's a good name. We're coming into the Lightning Round as well. Looking forward to that. We're going to tell you about ramp.com. Time is money saved both. Easy to use corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. And of course, for those who might have forgotten

Starting point is 00:01:09 our linear lineup is, of course, created by Linear, the system for modern software development. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products. Everyone wants to note, did John get a haircut? Yes. Yeah, I did. Yesterday. Cleaned it up a little bit.

Starting point is 00:01:24 It's getting wild. Some length still. We'll see. We'll see if we like it. Anyway, I think Siri needs an app. I think that that's under discussed. The news is that Apple and Google have a deal. We talked to Ben Thompson about it yesterday.

Starting point is 00:01:38 A billion dollars going from Apple to Google. Now, my real hot take is that I think it's going to flip at some point. And I think Google or someone else is going to pay Apple to route LLM queries to them. Because with the universal commerce protocol, agentic commerce protocol, with ads and LLM responses, there's going to be a whole bunch of moments where an LLM query is actually profitable. And on average, I think they will be profitable. I think the price of inference will continue to decline.

Starting point is 00:02:10 And the value of each query, the monetization of each query will increase until there's a flippening. And then all of a sudden, every LLM query that's generated is on net across the entire category, generating profit instead of generating losses, which is what's happening right now. Of course, just like with Google, when you search for, you know, how old is Leonardo DiCaprio or something, they're not making a lot of money on that. They're not running a lot of ads on that. But when you go to search for insurance or something like that, they charge a pretty penny

Starting point is 00:02:45 for those ads. And I think the same thing will be true for LLMs broadly. It is kind of interesting. They don't, I just looked it up. They don't run ads on how old is Leonardo DiCaprio? you'd think that they could figure out some type of ad to serve a good. Yeah, you'd think Brian Johnson would be buying an ad on that. Like some peptide.

Starting point is 00:03:01 Because you're like, oh, he looks great. And what's he doing? Oh, and then they look like Leo. He's 51. Leo was born in the 70s, which is crazy when you say it like that. Yeah. Well, he's looking great. He was at the Golden Globes, having fun, celebrating his movie.

Starting point is 00:03:16 Goofing around. Yeah, yeah, he was goofing around. He was caught on like some mic looking at somebody. I don't know. I saw some random clips. anyway, but the real thing I wanted to debate with Tyler was I was arguing that Siri needs an app. It's crazy. Siri came out in 2010.

Starting point is 00:03:34 Hasn't had an app for its entire life. I mean, it actually started as an app back in the day. It was Siri is from the Stanford Institute of Research and Intelligence or something like that. Yeah, it was like a $200 million acquisition. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. Seems like good value. Before we keep digging into Siri, let me tell you about Vanta, automate compliance and security.

Starting point is 00:03:56 Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform. So it was an app that you needed to install on your iPhone. There were a few of these speech recognition apps that you could go and you'd open up the app, click a button. Siri, because I think the fact that they were on the West Coast, was able to get the deepest integration in Apple, sort of win the home button over time, win the Siri button, and eventually they teamed up. actually, oh, I have triggered Siri on my Mac.

Starting point is 00:04:24 There you go. Fantastic. And so eventually, you know, Siri gets baked into the operating system level. And the rest is history. The first couple of years are pretty good. People are excited. You know, you can, it was somewhat magical to be able to just press a button, ask for the weather,

Starting point is 00:04:41 ask for a stock chart, ask for, you know, what's on your calendar, dictate a text message. A lot of that was pretty great. The user numbers are interesting. I don't know how much they just closed. This is sort of a rumored number, but the estimates are around 500 million active Siri users globally, which is huge, absolutely massive.

Starting point is 00:05:04 But there's 1.5 billion iPhone users, so having only a third of your user base use your AI feature seems a little bit low, if that's the case. Ian Macky says in the X-Chat Siri was born out of SRI International. Yeah, SRI, which I believe is Stanford, the Stanford Research Institute or something like that. I think that's where SRI comes from. But they're clearly not getting enough out of it. People aren't using it.

Starting point is 00:05:33 Everyone in Texas, I never use Siri. Obviously, some people do use Siri. Well, some people are using it now because we're saying Siri. Yeah, we're triggering it. We triggered it. We triggered it. Sorry about that. Anyway.

Starting point is 00:05:44 So obviously juicing it up with an L-LM like Gemini makes a ton of sense. Of course, Gemini is a sponsor of this show. Gemini 3 Pro. It's Google's most intelligent model yet. We've got state-of-the-art reasoning. Next-level vibe coding, a deep multimodal understanding. But this deal between Google and Apple makes a ton of sense. For a few reasons, Google's actually profitable, has the money.

Starting point is 00:06:11 They don't need to take a huge amount of cash from Apple. They can give them sort of a deal on it because it's a billion dollars. throwing around big numbers yesterday. Like, let's be honest, we're in tech. It's not a lot of money. Yeah, and it's actually true. It ramped up because at first it was the $30,000

Starting point is 00:06:29 $30,000 DeVinci Resolve, the Black Magic Ursa's immersive camera, that's $30,000. He's like, that's nothing. You just put the number. And that's true for a tech company. And he was like, you know, Apple's paying Google a billion dollars. That's nothing. It's like they're both nothing.

Starting point is 00:06:43 Yeah, the whole thing with the... Apple's an $4 trillion dollar company now. The live, the, the, infrastructure, the hardware to do a live Apple Vision Pro broadcast being $30,000 or something in that range is like the fact that they could copy and paste that around every stadium and suddenly have like a probably a a, I imagine they could scale that to hundreds of millions of dollars of like. You'd think so. Paper view and stuff. Yeah, not not even pay per view, but just a subscription. It's like the court sets. I mean, the headset's $3,500. Yeah. You only need to sell 10 headsets to offset the price of the of one immersive camera. Like you should. You should. You should. You just sell. You should. You should. You just sell. You should be able to do that. Anyway, we covered the Applevision Pro in detail yesterday. Ben Thompson joined the stream. You should go check out the video if you haven't watched that. And he actually gave us a shout at. He mentioned his appearance in the Stratectory Daily Update today, which is very fun. So my take is that I think over time this will flip and I think over time Google will

Starting point is 00:07:44 be paying Apple for all of the LLM routing that happens because Google will be monetizing. those queries. You will go to Siri and you will say, what's the weather? And Gemini, under the hood, will tell you the weather. And they probably won't monetize that very well. But then every once in a while, you'll say, hey, Gemini, order me a new TV. And it'll say, what size do you want? And it'll just order me. Rainmaker. Yeah, yeah, it changed the weather. And they will get either an affiliate fee or a transaction fee or there will be an ad that's placed in the stream of content that comes back. And I would imagine that right now Apple's saying, don't do any of those ads, don't monetize these queries. But over time, I imagine that they will. But the big thing that I wanted

Starting point is 00:08:26 to discuss with Tyler, he was fighting me on this, he says that Siri does not need an app. I think that Siri will need an app. I think that the LLM chat interface is so dominant at this point that everyone has the experience of going back and forth asynchronously, like it's changed. chatting to a helpful assistant like you're texting with a friend. You want to be able to scroll up and see Yeah, if you think about it to be very annoying if you had a real life assistant and they were like, you can only call me. Well, I won't. Tyler, explain. Explain your position. So it's not that. Oh. No, you flashbang him. I hit him on a flashback. So I was trying to help you out, John. Opinion denied, Tyler. Opinion denied. We have a flashbag now on the stream.

Starting point is 00:09:15 What good timing. So, Tyler, once the flashbang wears off, please tell us. Okay, so it's not that I disagree. I'm not like anti-app. It's just like the fifth most important thing that they need to like do. Okay. Like I don't care. Like, okay, would you rather have the same Siri, but there's also an app or a new

Starting point is 00:09:34 series? There's no app. Yes, yes, yes. It's a better model. Like obviously you're picking the latter. Yeah, you're picking the better model. But what I'm saying is that as soon as you integrate a better model that has more, he's going to flashbang again.

Starting point is 00:09:45 I'm too powerful. I'm watching this. So as soon as you have deeper responses and more back and forth and more knowledge retrieval. Siri has, they had Wolfram Alpha integration. I think they had a Wikipedia integration for a little bit, but it was more just like pulling up a Wikipedia snippet. And then you would either open that, if you want to go deeper, you would open that webpage in Safari and look at the actual Wikipedia. Now there's new context and new content that's being created on the fly by these models. models because you can ask questions that don't exist in a single Wikipedia page.

Starting point is 00:10:21 Gemini, under the hood in Siri, will instantiate that for you, give you those paragraphs, and you might not be able to read through all of that in one screen time session. You might get a text message, you need to answer it, you might get a phone call, you might have to put your phone down to, you know, keep doing whatever you're doing, and you want to come back to it. And so, yes, you could just say your prompt again and reinstatiate it all, but that takes time. these models are slow, especially if you're firing off a deep research report. I mean, like, yes. I agree that these are important things, but these are like far from the most important thing. I could just say, okay, if I'm asking about chips yesterday, we have this long conversation,

Starting point is 00:10:59 and then I say, okay, yesterday we were talking about chips. Let's continue that conversation. That whole thing solves now. Yes. So that is a group, that would be amazing. But the current chat apps don't even have that functionality. If you go to a new empty chat box. You could very easily implement that.

Starting point is 00:11:15 There are, on all the, okay, on Cloud, on chat, you can search through your past chats. Do you know how bad the search is? The search is not LLM power. It's not. I've found the search. It's not that good. It's not that good.

Starting point is 00:11:24 It's not actually an LLM query. It's not just you're talking about something like you're talking with a friend. You have to use keywords again. You're back in like traditional search world. You don't just go to the same empty box and say, hey, remember when we were talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, pull all that up. It doesn't do that.

Starting point is 00:11:46 Okay, sure, but I don't think that's that hard to implement. You just put the embedding models. But we're talking about Siri here. It can barely pull up the weather. Like, we're going from, we're going from like a D-tier product to now we're baking in a new model, Gemini. Yeah, but it's going to take it to like B tier.

Starting point is 00:12:00 The implementation of the model is way more important than if the app works. If I can like search through it correctly. Yeah. Like the implementation of the model is like not a trivial thing. Like you have to get a lot of things correct. What do you mean? Like, what about it?

Starting point is 00:12:15 Like, if you... You mean like the APIs and the hooks and like the tools that it will be able to use within the iOS ecosystem? Yeah, for it to be like smooth, for it to be like a good product, like it has to be like fast. I mean, to give things that are more important

Starting point is 00:12:26 than being able to search through yesterday's message. Yes, yes. And I think that's why the language is like Gemini-derived models, Gemini-distilled models, because they do want to be able to run something that's like Gemini, but on device. And obviously they have great hardware for that. Apple Silicon. And then also, they've actually built out really solid APIs across the entire iOS

Starting point is 00:12:48 stacks since they have a shortcut functionality, which is woefully underutilized. But that was initially designed to be working with, it was initially designed to plug into Siri. So you should be able to order an Uber with Siri or order DoorDash with Siri. All of that didn't really take off in terms of Siri usage. But the APIs are there. So I think the implementation should be fairly simple, or do you think they need some sort of RL environment? I don't know. I mean, it's just like, so, okay, if you're doing a deep research,

Starting point is 00:13:20 are you even, like, are we even sure that that is, you want to be using Siri for that? Like, maybe it's just better to do it. Whenever I do deep research, I never do it on the app. I'm always on, like, my laptop. Nerd, nerd alert. Because it's just like way more information dense. There's a bunch of links that I want to click on.

Starting point is 00:13:35 No, people definitely fire off deep research reports on their phone. Maybe they go read them later on their laptop, but we live in a mobile first world and Apple, and that's the Apple customer base. Siri customers are going to ask long questions that get long answers, and they're going to want to come back to those from time to time.

Starting point is 00:13:53 And where else will they do that other than an app with the neatly organized? Also, you can't even remember. Part of what's cool about these apps is that if I pull out the sidebar, I can scroll through and I can remember, oh, wow, I was looking at, you know, the NBA's history.

Starting point is 00:14:10 and, you know, their attendance over different... I don't even remember firing this off. When did I ask about this? But, like, I did, and now I can go back and enjoy the fruits of its labor. And I can enjoy the results. Yeah, but I just think there's so many more things that are important. Like, okay, even if...

Starting point is 00:14:28 Okay, so they're using Gemini. Yeah. Like, what would you rather have? Would you rather have Gemini 2.5 and an app? Yes. Or Gemini 3 and no app. It's not a trade-off. They're getting the best Gemini, obviously.

Starting point is 00:14:39 But, okay, clearly... And then also, they, the app is coming. That's what I'm saying. Apple is bad at implementing AI. Yes. Do you agree with that? They have been to date. Yes. Okay. Yeah. No one debates that Apple intelligence was sort of botched. So I think there is definitely a case to be made that they need to prioritize certain things. And the implementation of the actual model, like them using the best model that's going to be fast, it's going to, like maybe on Siri people are used to having fairly short responses. You don't want paragraphs and paragraphs unless you ask for it. Okay. Stuff like this is, I think, much more important than having. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I wouldn't be

Starting point is 00:15:08 surprised. I mean, truthfully, developing the type of app that I'm discussing about Siri, like it should be able to be one shot by Klug code. It's super simple, right? Let's pull up. But what are the probability that you think an app comes out this year? For Siri? Yes. I think it's probably pretty high. So what's wrong with my logic then? No, I agree with me. I'm not disagreeing with you. Someone in the chat said they already have a Siri app internally. Oh, interesting. We're getting a no idea. If that's true.

Starting point is 00:15:39 Okay. Wait. I want to move on to whatever you want to say. But first I want to tell you about fin. Dot AI, the number one AI, agent for customer service. If you want AI to handle your customer support,

Starting point is 00:15:48 go to fin. com. Okay, let me say one more thing. Okay, so I'm just saying like, I'm about to flashbang you. Okay,

Starting point is 00:15:55 if you're like writing this, who's the audience, like Apple, right, you want to make a change? Yeah, maybe? Yeah, yeah, okay, so it's like,

Starting point is 00:16:00 Ben Thompson comes on yesterday? All I'm saying is that is that, is that I'm excited for, I'm excited to be able to access Gemini with a button. I feel like that's what this deal is giving me. Yeah, that has nothing to do with an app. But also, after I access Gemini with this button,

Starting point is 00:16:16 the triggers, trigger flashbang, then I want to be able to see my list. Lambda, Lambda is the super intelligence cloud, building AI supercomputers for training and information. that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. Wait, you have a sound cue for Lambda now? Yes, I do.

Starting point is 00:16:47 Pull up this clip from Gary Tan testifying in the Senate. Okay, okay, let's see. About who here actually uses Siri. I personally do not because I know that it does not have the cutting edge technology that... I don't get along well with her. Yeah, but, exactly, that anthropic or Open AI or many other American labs could provide.

Starting point is 00:17:07 And imagine if, you know, Apple opened it up so that similar to when you open Windows, you have to choose a browser. What if you could choose your AI agent? Then there are a billion consumers in the world who would suddenly have access to not just one self-preference Siri, but a variety of American labs. And that would open up investment. That would open up prosperity. That's a good pitch. I like this. The Trupa with the end card. When is that from? Is that recent?

Starting point is 00:17:41 Ian is on an absolute tear. Let's see. Oh, it's over here. Thank you, Ian. He says Apple's currently hiring 300 Siri focus roles. Oh, they're going big. They're going to do everything.

Starting point is 00:17:52 You don't think one of those is an app developer. Okay, no. Let me just finish it. Okay. So you think that's intentional? Wait, before you're... You think that's intentional, like, you know, kind of a reference to the movie 300? Oh, their last hand against the 10,000 Chatsypte employees.

Starting point is 00:18:08 I will let you respond. but first I'm going to tell you about graphite.dev. Code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub hip ship higher quality software faster. That's right. Continue. Okay, so Ben Thompson came on yesterday and he said he wants

Starting point is 00:18:23 one thing, okay? He doesn't, to change the Apple Vision Pro, he doesn't want, oh, a new productivity feature or, oh, I want to be able to FaceTime my friend while watching the NBA game. All he wants is to edit, to remove all the edits from the NBA game. Yes, yes. You have to choose one thing. You have to do it. You don't have to, yeah. Okay, yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:38 So if the audience is Apple, like, what I want them to know is, like, you guys need to pick the right model, you need to implement it well. I don't care about the app. That's like way later. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. I hear you. I think that makes some sense, but I don't think it's as much of a trade-off as you think it is. I mean, they did, just for Apple intelligence, they did like six different things. They had like the generative Genoji. They had a whole bunch of different things. Visual intelligence. They've had a variety of products. None of them. really hit. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:19:11 Is there one that was good? They need to choose one thing. That's good. One that was good. I don't know. But I'm ready to move the goalposts. Let's do it. We have the goalpost. So my new definition for Apple AGI, Apple intelligence, Apple super intelligence, Apple super intelligence. There's just a functioning search feature in IMessage. That would be very good. That's AGI for Apple. That's ASI. No, my definition is I want to be able to go.

Starting point is 00:19:39 to the new Siri and so I got an iPad and the iPad just accidentally installed like every app that I've ever installed on my phone on the iPad, which wouldn't be that bad because on my phone I have one home screen and then I have a second screen and then the third screen is just the app library and it just has a search box and then the app library actually very intelligently organizes things into productivity, utilities, entertainment. It does all that for me. I don't need to organize it. I don't choose where things go. It knows if it's a creativity app or a travel app or a news app.

Starting point is 00:20:14 It puts it in its correct category. I don't need to manage that. So it's great. I have a whole bunch of apps in my phone and they're all organized. For some reason, the iPad was just like, let's do pages and pages and pages of all these apps on actual screens. And there's no rhyme or reason to them. And I want to organize them all into a logical format.

Starting point is 00:20:33 But I think I'd have to go and at least remove all of them from home screen one at a time it would be like thousands of taps to get rid of all of them probably take me like 10 to 20 minutes it's annoying it's not going to happen I just won't do it but it's a good test of agentic AI to be able to with a single prompt one shot hey clean up the whole desktop because we're seeing that today with Claude co-work is the name could not co-worker claude co-work okay Claude co-work a lot of people are having fun installing Claude co-work and then and then saying hey go clean up my desktop Organize it. Now, who knows if this is valuable? I don't think you care about clean desktops. Are you a mess? I really don't. I did see a post somebody was like, wow, Claude Co-work cleaned up all the files on my desktop.

Starting point is 00:21:21 This is going to change everything. And I was thinking, you know, every once in a while, I'll clean up the files on my desktop, but it's never once changed anything. Everything. Yeah, no. Usually I just make a folder with, like, archive. And in fact, I don't find it. I don't find it. I don't find it. I do that again and again and again. Like if it was really important, we'd probably have somebody on the team that was like just really good at organizing desktops. Sure. And now we do. Cloud Co-Work. Yeah, I guess we do. But I want to be able to, but I do think as trivial as that example is, I think it's a good example of what an agentic system should be able to do if it has the proper hooks into the OS layer. Claude Co-Work can do it on desktop. What's the iOS equivalent of that? It's got to be Apple Intelligence. They have their walled garden. The walls are staying up. They're not letting Claude co-work go around your iOS installation and hook into all your different local APIs. That's the domain of Apple intelligence.

Starting point is 00:22:13 That's the domain of Siri. Series now powered by Gemini. It should be able to do this. Let's see if that's what they launch. And that's the model implementation that you're talking about. And that's what I agree with you on. I just think there will also be an app. Okay.

Starting point is 00:22:26 Yeah. But like the former is much more important to the letter. Yes, I agree. We're moving on. The germinator called all of this back in November. So anyways, this isn't even new news, but we should. It's now official. It is a critical.

Starting point is 00:22:39 We've got to give it out for Mark Gurman, though. The Germinator. The Germinator's back on the calendar. We're going to have him on. Can't wait to catch up. Because John Ternis is in the news, too. We'll get to that. First, let me tell you about Century.

Starting point is 00:22:51 Century shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps working. 150K. That's a lot. That's a lot. Apple ran a blind test of frontier models and picked Gemini. Interesting. And there's this old photo of the Tim Cook meeting with Sundar Pachai from Google in a dimly lit cafe or restaurant, probably in Cooperino or Menlo Park somewhere.

Starting point is 00:23:23 I was hoping they would do a jersey swap at this event because, of course, Mark Zuckerberg and Jensen Wong swap jerseys. Tim Cook very clearly mewing here. I think they're both mewing at each other. They're both mewing at each other. They're just having a mew off. Yes, that's how they really decided. They're not even talking. They're not they want to do business to the other.

Starting point is 00:23:42 Anyway, let's go over to the New York Times. New York Times has a new profile. Specifically, Callie Huang and Tripp Mickle. John Turnus, a low profile, but influential executive at Apple could be next in line to replace the company's longtime chief executive, Tim Cook, if he steps aside. They say, Around 2018, Apple considered adding a tiny laser to its iPhones. The part would allow consumers to take better photos, more accurately map their surroundings,

Starting point is 00:24:10 and use new augmented reality features. But it would also cost Apple about $40 per device cutting into the company's profits. John Turnus, Apple's head of hardware engineering, suggested adding the component to only the more expensive pro models of the iPhone, said two people familiar with the discussions. Those devices, Mr. Turner's reasoned tended to be purchased by Apple's most loyal soldiers. hostages, who would be excited about new technology. Average consumers, on the other hand, probably wouldn't care. Threading the needle between adding new bells and whistles.

Starting point is 00:24:41 Let's give it up for bells and whistles to Apple's products while watching the bottom line has defined the careful, low-profile style of Mr. Turn Us. And we have to take a minute to talk about the nominative determinism of Turn Us. Turn Us Around. Mr. Turn Us Around. Our AI strategy is failing. We need somebody to turn us around. Mr. Turnus could be the man for a job.

Starting point is 00:25:07 He joined Apple in 2001. He is now considered by some company insiders to be the frontrunner to replace Tim Cook. Apple's longtime CEO. Apple last year began accelerating its planning for Mr. Cook's succession, according to three people. Mr. Cook 65 has told senior leaders that he is tired and would like to reduce his workload. Should he step down, Mr. Cook is like to. to become the chairman of Apple's board. Oh, interesting. Look this.

Starting point is 00:25:32 They're also doing some numerology. Turnus is 50, and that's the same age that Cook, that Tim Cook was, but he took over for Steve Jobs in 2011. We see you, New York Times doing the hard-hitting analysis. Like Mr. Cook, Mr. Turnus is known for his attention to detail and his knowledge of Apple's vast supply network. Both men are also considered even-tempered collaborators, capable of navigating the bureaucracy of one of the world's wealthiest companies without ruffling feathers.

Starting point is 00:26:02 His rising profile caused debate amongst Apple alumni and rank-and-file employees about whether he would lead like Tim Cook, who succeeded by making the company more predictable and incremental, or Mr. Jobs, who laid the foundation for the company's success with risky bets and visionary. Venturi in the chat says Apple needs a social network. Do they have it already? I feel like I message is a social network. Ping, if you remember Ping. They had a social network that they acquired, I believe, from Jeff Ralston, the former YC partner.

Starting point is 00:26:32 But it was like Spotify where you could see where other people are playing. You'd go on Apple Music, or it wasn't called Apple Music back then. It was Ping, which was linked to iTunes. You could see what other people are listening to. And then every artist would have a profile where they could share content. It was a very music-driven social network. Follow me on Ping. Follow me on ping me.

Starting point is 00:26:54 Ping me. Never really took off, though. Other than that, I think IMSSage is a very, very strong social network. And I mean, certainly if Meta owns WhatsApp and includes that in the family of apps, and messaging is obviously a huge driver of social networking activity these days, people sharing content through there, Snapchat is a messenger. Instagram is, you know, you look and you see there's more shares on this reel than likes because people are sending it to each other.

Starting point is 00:27:22 That's what people do. That's how people are. Yeah, and I think the people have long had the idea to build a family-focused social network, and I don't think they'll ever be successful because group chats on iMessage function. Oh, yeah, totally. Do that very well. You just can't keep up with Apple on that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:39 Before we move on, Figma, Figma Make isn't your average vibe coding tool. It lives in Figma, so outputs look good, feel real, and stay connected to how teams build, create codeback prototypes and apps fast. Mr. Turnus's rising profile. Sorry, you got that. If you want to make an iPhone every year, Ternus is your guy, says Cameron Rogers. But how much should we read into this? They already do make an iPhone every year.

Starting point is 00:28:05 But I guess that's... But it says something, I mean, obviously, we don't have the context here. What he didn't say was if you want to build the next crazy, yeah, the futuristic, you know. If you want to get the Apple car project off the ground, Ternus is your guy. He said, if you want to make an Apple, an iPhone,

Starting point is 00:28:21 every year, like clockwork, keep the trains running on time. At Apple, Ternus is your guy. Yeah, people, we read that other quote about Ternus where they were saying, like, has he done any hard, has he made any hard decisions? No. And someone was clearly taking shots at him. It feels like there's a little bit of like politics going on over at Apple,

Starting point is 00:28:40 people jockeying for the next role. But whatever's happening with John Ternis clearly is working because it's one profile after another. And he's the name I keep hearing more and more, certainly above Craig Federigi, Eddie Q, some of the other folks who are sort of household names in the Apple ecosystem, they're not getting profiles like this written. Everyone needs to meet and learn about John Turnus. So Apple's plans for artificial intelligence are also a big question. Is he HGI pilled?

Starting point is 00:29:07 Is he AISI pilled? Whatever is timelines? Is he a dumber? We've got to get to the bottom of this. Hopefully the New York Times is asking the hard questions. We will find out. While other giant technology companies have spent tens of billions of dollars developing AI, Apple has largely been on the sidelines, and it pushed off making major changes to its products with new AI technology. It'll be up to Apple's board of directors to decide who will eventually replace Mr. Cook, who also sits on the board.

Starting point is 00:29:31 The rest of the company's eight board members did not respond to requests for comments, and Apple declined to make Mr. Turnus available for an interview. They couldn't get the New York Times in the room with Turnus. The Financial Times and Bloomberg previously reported on aspects of this. So he's the youngest member of Apple's executive leadership team. He's getting some young blood in there. Sort of a doge situation, I guess. The boys, the Ternis child at the helm. No, he's 50.

Starting point is 00:30:02 It would be Apple's first chief executive in three decades to have spent his career working in hardware. Unlike some of the other candidates to replace Mr. Cook, Mr. Ternis has worked on many of Apple's devices as well as the global operations that manufacture those products. He would take over as a relative unknown outside of Apple. Inside the company, he's known more for maintaining products than developing new ones, according to six former employees. And Mr. Turnus, who has been an engineer in Silicon Valley for all of his adult life, has limited exposure to the policy issues and political responsibilities. That can be viewed as a knock, right? Like he's not just given Apple's history as an innovator.

Starting point is 00:30:42 But like where, you know, what's the highest leverage place that he can spend his time? Probably, you know, focusing on the products that are already hits that have real product market fit. The political responsibilities can't be that complicated. I mean, he knows the supply chain. All he has to do is make a solid gold iPhone. Send one to 1600 and call it a day. Make sure it's very ornate and you'll be good to go. He's a California native.

Starting point is 00:31:08 He received a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Penn, where he was on the varsity swim team. For a senior project, he designed a device that allowed quadriplegic to use head motions to control a mechanical feeding art. Wow, it's like a neuralink back in the day. In the four years after his graduation from Penn, he designed headsets and other products at a virtual reality startup. Wow, throwback. Then he joined Apple, first working on screens for Macs as the company transitioned away from the colorful IMAX of late 1990s. I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk to Mr. Turnus at some point, but I would love to know what people's VR timelines were when he was working on VR in the 90s. They were like 10 years max. In the next decade, for sure.

Starting point is 00:31:52 He was a man of the people, adding that the decision to sit with his team likely helped Mr. Turnus manage and motivate his staff. When he was working at Apple, their team, the team he was on moved office floors, switching from a closed office plan to a mostly open seating with flew offices. When he was promoted, Mr. Turnus had the option to move into one of those fancy offices, but he said, no, I'm sitting with the crew, I'm riding with my boys, I'm hanging out in the open plan, which is, you know, tells you a lot about who he is as a person. In 2005, Mr. Turnus had been promoted to lead Apple's hardware engineering team for the IMAX, as it made the G5 series, which helped inspire, who helped Michael Hillman hired

Starting point is 00:32:39 Mr. Turnus and worked with him at Apple for more than a decade. That team was working on using magnets to hold the computer's glass screen in place. Interesting. The technique was unusual for its time and faced skepticism, but Mr. Turnus still pushed for it. When presented with such an out-of-the-box idea, he would champion it, said Mr. Seafurt. Mr. Turnus spent extended periods of time working with manufacturers in Asia. He traveled between the continent and Silicon Valley and learned how difficult it could be to have a manufacturing supplier deliver on Apple's design expectations. Apple also paired Mr. Ternis with an external consultant to advise him on leadership. He got a leadership coach. He became a key lieutenant of Dan Richio, his predecessor as Apple's head of hardware. By 2013,

Starting point is 00:33:24 his role had expanded to include overseeing the Mac and iPad teams. In recent years, he has shouldered more responsibility for updates to Apple's products spearheaded the iPhone Air, which was released last year with a new slim design and was a key key. leader in Apple's transition from using Intel chips to Silicon, to Apple Silicon. And of course, the iPhone Air, not a really hot seller, apparently, not doing that well financially necessarily, but from an engineering perspective, people are very excited about... One of the Apple employee friend of mine said he got the iPhone Air was the worst iPhone he's ever bought. Really? Wow. Roasted. Absolutely brutal. Well, before we talk more about the iPhone

Starting point is 00:34:05 Air. Let me tell you about Label Box, delivering you the highest quality data for Frontier AI. Get in the box. The label box. Apple, you know you need some training data. You know you need some high quality training data for your Frontier AI. You need some data to train on Siri. Get on label box. Get in the box. So the iPhone Air, obviously, even my reviews are mixed. Reviews are not great. Some people complain about different things. Some people love it. But it hasn't been flying off the shelves, but when you see the x-ray, you know it's cool. The founder who said, this is the strongest iPhone ever made. Nobody can possibly break this.

Starting point is 00:34:42 It's impossible. What happened next? And that was quickly broken in half by a gunned out founder. That was an iPhone air. Smashed, smashed. But you can imagine the innovation that went into making the iPhone air so small could be used for a foldable phone, which was probably coming, could be used for more miniaturization. some sort of lapel pin or something else.

Starting point is 00:35:05 They're clearly have packed a lot of power into such a small form factor. So is he a nice guy? Yes, says Mr. Rogers. He is a nice guy. He's someone you want to hang out with. Everyone loves him because he's great. And here's the quote that lives in infamy. Has he made any hard decisions?

Starting point is 00:35:21 No. Are there hard problems he's solved in hardware? No. How can you say? How can you say he's never made a hard decision? says Cameron Rogers, who worked on product and software engineering management at Apple from 2005 to 2022. Cameron Rogers, hater of the year right here. Who is this person?

Starting point is 00:35:47 But Cameron Rogers is not a fan, clearly, not pulling out the glazinator for Ternus. It's absolutely brutal to say. Yeah, remember, the same guy who said earlier in the article, if you want to make an iPhone every year, Ternus is your guy. Yeah, you got it. Again, I read that and I was like, okay, that sounds good, surface level. Cameron Rogers does make an iPhone every year. We should have Cameron on the show. The hater in chief, chief hating officer.

Starting point is 00:36:16 It's crazy. I mean, certainly you cannot be at Apple for two decades and never have made a single hard decision or solved a hard problem in hardware. Like, that seems impossible. It's funny. There's a hardware engineer at Apple today named Cameron Rogers, but it is. Different person. different. Okay, okay. Well, in a 2024 commencement speech at Penn's Engineering School,

Starting point is 00:36:39 Mr. Turner told graduating students that in the future, they would be proudest, not of specific projects, but of the journey to make them all happen. Quote, now while you're on that journey, there's going to be many times in your career where you have to take on something new, he said, and sometimes you might wonder whether or not you can actually do it, giving a little inspirational talk at Penn's Engineering School commencement speech. Very fun. Well, good luck to him. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:37:05 I think you can figure it out. I would be shocked if he's really never solved a hard problem. Seems like he has some beef with this Cameron fellow. And I don't know. We'll see Cameron Rogers. Maybe Ternus needs to respond. Drop a disc track. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:37:23 I would love to see that. Public.com, investing for those who take it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries and more, all with amazing customer service. Open AI, they've acquired Torch. It's a healthcare startup that unifies lab results, medications, and visit recordings. Bringing this together with ChatGPT Health,

Starting point is 00:37:44 opens up a new way to understand and manage your health, says OpenAI. Okay, founders of Torch. Torch was a four-person company. Oh, small. The co-founder of Torch, Ilya, I believe one of the other founders. previously built forward. Ilya was also an early Uber GM, so trained at the Travis Kalanick School of Mugging.

Starting point is 00:38:11 Anyways, forward little backstory. Healthcare startup founded in 2016, they wanted to rebuild the healthcare system from the ground up. Sounds cool. They originally were trying to do this kind of like, the general belief was that healthcare was too reactive instead of proactive, right? You go to the doctor when you're sick, not to just kind of generally be healthy. They wanted the sort of physical spaces

Starting point is 00:38:41 to feel like Apple stores, right? They wanted this Apple-like experience for health. Subscription only model. They didn't accept insurance initially. A bunch of folks, Founders Fund, Kostla, Eric Schmidt, a bunch of legends. were in the round. 2018 to 2020,

Starting point is 00:39:01 they expanded to dozens of locations. They had body scanners, real-time blood work, a bunch of different software that they had built out. 2021 reached a valuation of over $1 billion, raised a quarter billion-ish series D round. At this point, from that point on,

Starting point is 00:39:21 they sort of pivoted to focusing on this thing called care pods. and these were like trying to be autonomous, like AI-driven medical kiosk, so honestly probably right idea, maybe a little bit too early. Eventually in 2024, they shut down very abruptly. It sounds like they basically just ran out of money, came back very quickly with Torch, and now they are, of course, being rolled into Open AI. So you can, I think the right way to read into this.

Starting point is 00:39:56 opening I just launched opening eye health. They're now acquiring a torch. I would assume that they want all of your health data. They really want to help you with your health. They want your blood. They're out for blood. They want your blood work. Maybe they could say like, hey, this month, instead of paying, you could be a blood boy.

Starting point is 00:40:18 Our researchers are working really hard. You need your blood. I'm ready to upload. upload me. Just let me know. Let me know what... I'm going to read the message that Torch wrote. Torch says, everyone deserves the best answers modern medicine can give them, and yet we've all had people close to our hearts who didn't get the answers they needed about their health. We have more data about our bodies than ever before,

Starting point is 00:40:39 but it's never been harder to bring it all together. Patients see only a fraction of their own records, while clinicians have too little time to parse the growing stream of data patients bringing in from wearables and consumer health companies, you know, like function, etc. AI is the most important new tool we've had in decades for turning the chaos into clarity. But AI can't help you if your health data is scattered across four hospitals, two labs, seven apps, and three web portals. We started torch to build a medical memory for AI, unifying scattered records into a context engine that helps you see the full picture, connect the dots, and make sure nothing important gets lost in the noise again. Mike has a little life hack here. If you're an early stage AI founder, rename yourself to Ilya and get an MNAO.

Starting point is 00:41:22 offer? Just crazy enough to work. I like it. Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds, online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. Every time I see one of these new features drop from Claude, co-work, or OpenAI, Chat, GPT, health, it just feels like the Siri thing is like bigger and bigger. back to what Tyler was saying about implementation of the model, because Apple has Apple Health. There's a whole promise there of what Apple Health as an app can do. You want that to be AI enabled.

Starting point is 00:42:05 So they need to update that as well. And there's so many different, okay, shopping, agent of commerce. Like, there's Apple Pay. Is Apple Pay integrated with Siri and the new AI function? So they really do need to go around and update all over the place if they want to stay. they have some dominant positions carved out, but every AI company is trying to eat off Apple's plate as much as they can,

Starting point is 00:42:28 but there's a really, really strong lock-in to most of the Apple ecosystem. So it's not over if they don't move right now and get the app out and get updates out, but it's very clear that if Apple or ChatGPT Health is rolling out, you know, it's going to take time for people to ramp up, start integrating things, start using it. But if that behavior develops and it's another two, three years until Apple responds,

Starting point is 00:42:56 like, yeah, they are going to be a laggard in that category. There's a Claude Co-Work reaction thread going on from Zvi-Mushowitz. Lots of people kind of mixed reviews. Eleanor Berger says, research preview. This is the future, not the present. For now, if you want a local agent, Claude Code is still the best you can recommend, even if it's for non-coding tasks. Some people are saying it's buggy.

Starting point is 00:43:22 Have you had a chance to try it out, Tyler? Can you install Claude Co-work today? Yeah, I mean, so I downloaded it yesterday, but it's kind of, we talked about this earlier in the gym. Like, I actually don't know what to do with it because I'm like already technical already have Claude Code. Yeah. My sense is that this is basically just a...

Starting point is 00:43:38 We get it. My sense is it's basically just a UI rapper. No, seriously, we get it. We get it, your technical. Hit him with a flashbang. No. It's too powerful. Okay, but it's like a UI wrapper around Cloud Code.

Starting point is 00:43:51 Yeah. So it's like not providing maybe an insane amount of like brand new functionality. I mean, there's a, there's a huge swath of consumers who are just never going to really open the terminal. Even if it's, even if you go to Cloud and say, how do I install Cloud Code? I heard it's hot. And Cloud Code says literally just hit command spacebar type T-E-R-M, hit Enter. It'll open the terminal. And then copy and paste this line.

Starting point is 00:44:17 and then tell it what you want, just like it's chat GPT or Claude, people still won't do that because it's like, oh, what's this weird thing? You need like 15 gigs for it, too. Yeah, you do need some space in your hard job, but that's not a huge issue for most people. Yeah, but it's not fully frictionless. Whereas, yeah, whereas an app might sort of hold your hand through that a little bit more. And so I'm optimistic about this, but I do think that the marketing and the messaging, and actually like the thread boy influencers are going to be pretty important.

Starting point is 00:44:47 here, where if you see someone demo something cool with Claude co-work, that's going to be a key to open it up. A lot of people, you know, in the early days of chat GPT rolling out, a lot of people were sharing prompts. What's a good prompt? You know, prompt engineering. Like, oh, you take this prompt and do this? There's a lot of people need inspiration.

Starting point is 00:45:09 It's the same thing with mid-journey. Like, if you just give someone a blank box and tell them, this is an image generator. I'll just say like dog, and then you just give them a picture of a dog, and they're like, yeah, it looks like a dog, I can go to Google images. What's special about it is, like, I want it to be my dog, and I want it to be fighting Darth Vader, and I want it to be in downtown LA, and then it creates something that you can't just find on Google Images. The same thing will be true on Claude Co-work. There are tools for just cleaning up your desktop. There's, I think Alfred is one of them. There's a few others that just do automated sort of deterministic cleanup of desktops.

Starting point is 00:45:46 But people will eventually be sharing Claude, co-work, workflows, prompts, best practices, and just giving people the idea as simple as that sounds, the capability's there, but there's this capability application overhang where you need to actually tell people, hey, this is something that you could use Claude Co-Work for. Mike says, think the position as co-work is actually really sharp.

Starting point is 00:46:06 I agree. I think that it's kind of a mouthful Claude Co-work, but going back to what I was saying last week when people, when some lab leaders have been talking about the potential of AI, they just say, oh, AI is going to do this, AI is going to do that. Obviously, the, at least near-term reality is humans are going to use AI to do things. And I think anthropic, trying to be more human about it and saying, like, hey, you're working with this thing. It's not, it's not clotimating you away. There are people having fun with the clawed puns, the portmanteaus. First, before we read through these,

Starting point is 00:46:41 let me tell you about Railway. Railway simplifies software development. web apps, servers, and databases running one place with scaling, monitoring, a security built in. Neer, friend of the show, says his job? Oh, it got clodomated away. No one has, no one, I can't believe no one has said this, not even a single end. 1,000 likes, people are into this. Paula says he hates AI. Oh, he's claudstrophobic.

Starting point is 00:47:05 Claudestrophobic, okay. These are getting a lot of likes, but not exactly belly laughing for me. Yeah, not quite. I'm glad people are having fun. I do think Claude's a funny name. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, John Palmer was really pushing like, hey, now's the time. To rebrand. To rebrand.

Starting point is 00:47:25 Rename. I mean, a naming exercise can be, you know, a very expansive project. But, uh, I do think it's probably too late where, right way Claude is going all the way. Yeah, they've all sort of worked out. I don't know. Chat, GPT. Bard and Heinz. I think I'm sorry.

Starting point is 00:47:45 Having a digital bard. Bard. Yeah, Bard was funny. But Gemini works. They're building up the brand there. And Claude works as well. ChatGBTGBT, BT, such a mouthful, such an insane name,

Starting point is 00:47:58 so clearly, you know, named by a developer, but, you know, just broke through in such a way. And then they did buychat.com, so, you know, it winds up working. Claude Code for the rest of your work, American middle class desk jockeys, watching the asteroid.

Starting point is 00:48:12 hit the dinosaurs. We will see how much this moves productivity, how much this move GDP. That's the big question for this year, is how much will people actually be able to, you know, use this to do the work they do every day. I've been in jobs where my job. Organizing desktop files was actually a $1 trillion industry.

Starting point is 00:48:36 Yeah. And I mean, I have been, I was an intern once. And my job was basically to open up an Excel template every day, copy paste some numbers, sort of make sure all the formulas held. And over the internship, over the couple months, I wrote more and more visual basic so that my job went from eight hours on the first day to four hours to eventually it was like 15 minutes. I would just like get there and just hit a script. I would just click a button and it would just do everything.

Starting point is 00:49:10 And that was just with like normal software. Now you probably have to, you have to, you know, reality checks. So make sure there's no hallucinations. But in general, like, some of these jobs can be automated. The question is, like, if someone uses this to automate their own job, will they just be sitting there, you know, watching reels in the small corner? And when their boss comes by, they alt tab. So they're looking, oh, I'm still working really hard.

Starting point is 00:49:34 Nothing's been automated. These models are slop. I definitely still need my job. You know, where does the value accrue? Who's reclaiming the value? I mean, we did talk to a friend who was saying that, like, you know someone who's a, has some sort of desk job, has been effectively automated by Chachypti,

Starting point is 00:49:54 but just spends all day golfing now. And the boss doesn't know that the job's been automated because the boss doesn't understand. We might see a bowl market and water cooler talk. Ooh, yeah, that's possible. As people automate more and more of their work and just decide to yap. Well, speaking of water, let's go.

Starting point is 00:50:10 over to Augustus DeRico, the Rainmaker himself. But first, let me tell you about Apploven, profitable advertising made easy with axon.a.I. Get access to over one billion daily active users and grow your business today. Augustus says, I'm AI-pilled after seeing what the new grad philosophy major I hired to fly drones from a mountaintop has automated at Rainmaker with Claude. He's very happy. Yeah, we keep asking Tyler, hey, can you automate this? And he says, uh, sorry, sir. It's, it's not, it's not possible yet. It's not possible yet. I don't believe it. I never said that.

Starting point is 00:50:47 He basically said everything. So, Boris Churny, who is... Run's Claude Code. He created code code. Remember, he popped over to Open AI for like two weeks, right? No, that was Curser.

Starting point is 00:51:02 Oh, he popped over to Curser. Wait, so he went to cursor, he churned, and went back to Anthropic? Yeah. So he's literally a crazy moment last summer. He's churning in terms of his jobs. Yes. Churning through jobs.

Starting point is 00:51:15 Interesting. Interesting. Good nominative determinants. Well, how much code did he write to develop Claude Co-work? He apparently used Claudecote entirely and did none of the coding himself. Fantastic. Very, very cool. So he said, since we launched Claude Code Code, we saw people using it for all sorts of non-coding work,

Starting point is 00:51:34 doing vacation research, building slide decks, cleaning up your email, canceling subscriptions, recovering wedding photos from hard drive, monitoring plant growth, controlling your oven. These use cases are diverse and surprising. The reason is that the underlying Claude Agent is the best agent, and Opus 4.5 is the best model. Today, we're so excited to introduce co-work, our first big step towards making Claude work for all your non-coding work. The product is early and raw, similar to what Claude Code felt like when it first launched. And that's the big question.

Starting point is 00:52:08 Tyler, is Claude Code was very bare bones rough around the edges when it launched. It's now so full functioning that everyone loves it and it's building whole new products. What do they need to add to co-work to make it an even better product? I don't know. I feel like in the app ecosystem, in the chat app ecosystem, the chat app ecosystem, the level of value that comes from product design, UI, U.S., is still underrated. Obviously, no one doubts that the models are great.

Starting point is 00:52:44 But if you use the Claude app and you have it, you generate a deep research report or something like that, you click the play button to have it read it to you, you can't fast forward or rewind, you can't change the speed, and you also, if you close your phone, it just stops playing. So you need to be sort of like touching the phone to keep it working, to keep it working,

Starting point is 00:53:07 to keep it open while you listen to this report. And that just feels like, oh, that's like not a good user experience. And ChatGPT has solved that and has some more they can do background audio. And these are all sort of simple APIs in iOS, but it takes time and consideration. You have to decide where the buttons go and what they look like. And Cloud Code can do a lot of that. But it takes time and someone has to make the decision. My neighbor, Murph in the X chat says, I'm interested in Noah, no work.

Starting point is 00:53:36 Claude go work. No, I know work. I like that. Something there. That's great. Anyway, MongoDB, choose a database built for flexibility and scale with best in class embedding models and re-rankers. MongoDB has what you need to build. What's next?

Starting point is 00:53:55 Netcap girl, Sophie, says, okay, Claude, take this unstructured data and turn it into dashboards that will give executives, deeper insights into critical business functions, make no mistakes. Cheer of tickets as all reliable because Sophie posts some version of this. Wait, really? Once a day? Once a day? Basically. No way.

Starting point is 00:54:13 He's gone viral with the same concept. Wait, but like, has it always been about Claude? No, no, no. Oh, just constantly being re-re-purpose. Just playing the hits. You've got to play the hits. Critical business functions. Atlas says, Claude, here is a picture of my crush.

Starting point is 00:54:28 Claude, here is her phone number. Make her my GF. Make no mistake. That's also his been playing the hits. Everyone has their role to play in the post-singularity hangout sesh. Turbo puffer. Serverless vector in full-text search, built from first principles and object storage, fast, tenets, cheaper, and extremely scalable.

Starting point is 00:54:48 There's a billion dollars inside Opus 4.5 model weights, and you just need to type the right Claude Code prompts to get them out. Says Frankie. Very true. Lots of opportunity. Actually, knowing how to code is no one. Joanne says there's no point in learning or doing anything anymore. Just learn English.

Starting point is 00:55:05 and acquire a good mental model of things and just type, bro. Just type. Yeah. We'll see. I mean, you have to actually be inspired to come up with something that people want, talk to users or something like that.

Starting point is 00:55:18 Claude code is so successful, they had to make Claude not for code instead of just Claude. Plot code not for code instead of just clod. It is funny that there's these opportunities to retooling. the brand around, because we're now three levels deep. There's Anthropic, there's Claude,

Starting point is 00:55:40 and there's Cloud Code, and Claude Co-Work. And you could have just said Claude Code and Claude Co-worker are now just Claude. It's one thing. It works in the terminal. It also works on your desktop. It's one thing. But it's interesting that Anthropic clearly sees some sort of divide between technical and non-technical users that they assume that will persist, at least for a reasonable amount of time. Let's see. Introducing Claude Co-work, and it's giving an AK-47 to a monkey,

Starting point is 00:56:11 which is one of my favorite meme images ever. If you scroll up, you'll see. One of the best formats. It's one of the best formats, yes. You could definitely do some damage on a computer or in a corporate environment. If you really turn it loose on the network, we will see. I'm sure there will be more total,

Starting point is 00:56:31 just ridiculous mistakes than malicious intent, but it will be interesting. So deja vu Coder goes on to say, initially I thought it's computer use, but looks like it's Claude Code shaped with more UIUX focused towards non-technical people, especially those who... Real quick, Gold Rock in the chat is headed to an interview with Goldman Sachs. One, let's give it up for Goldman Sachs. And two, let's all send some good luck towards our boy. Yes. Shalto also posted, of course, because he's involved in this.

Starting point is 00:57:07 Oh, yeah? What else was going on? Yes. Oh, Ramp also has a coding agent. They built their own. Fax, Herbert, shared this. The TriRamp Engineering team built a coding agent last month called Inspect, and it's now dominating our internal use cases. I can't tell you how fun it is to continually have my mind blown by our technical folks.

Starting point is 00:57:29 Very, very interesting to actually. Actually, people are very confused by this, but it's a very special team, very special company. And so it makes sense in this particular context to build something special. And they also have an agenetic spreadsheet product at this point. And they've been having a lot of fun developing new software very quickly all over the place. Before we move on, CrowdStrike, your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches.

Starting point is 00:58:01 And Rune is back to vague posting. He says that the elves have left for Valinor. Please, sir, can I have a crumb of context? Just a crumb. The I-require context hat goes on. Elves, people who... We need a hat here. We do.

Starting point is 00:58:18 The I require context hat. Yes, I don't know exactly what he's referring to. It is a vague post, but we'll have to dig into it. Maybe we'll have to have him back on the show. Well, QT Cash is speculating. saying given that Rune is likely referencing his own quern comment talking about the downfall of open AI, what does this mean for the future? Quirn says,

Starting point is 00:58:39 apropos of Suscover, now having left open AI for good, I've gone back to my thinking about the long term consequences of Altman's coup and something I began to wonder in 2021 when the news about Anthropic broke. What if the elves have left Middle Earth? What if Open AI has lost its mojo? If so, what would that look like and how would we know? What's the rot narrative? Interesting. Interesting. Oh, wait. So Zumer also says he's talking about the California tax proposal, Fed shenanigans. You're misreading the tweet. So the elves could just be our most loyal. And this is the power of vague posting. Yes, you can interpret it a bunch of different ways. It's like sprinkling, you know, some tea leaves. People can find their own. Yes. I mean, regardless, you know, open AI, have they lost their mojo? Certainly not when it comes to vague posting. Tyler, what do you think?

Starting point is 00:59:25 Okay, yeah. So there's like the two different ways to look at it, right? It's about California or Open AI? Yes. But so I think he probably meant it as like, okay, this is about California, billionaire tax. But like all the news about that has broken like earlier this week. Like all the, everyone's leaving, right? It's kind of late to post that. Yeah. But it's a perfect time to post as you kind of see at least the vibes on X, like really hard going against Open AI pro-anthropic.

Starting point is 00:59:51 Sure, sure. So I think it's like if someone asked him about it, he's like, oh, it's about the billionaire tax. But, you know, subtly, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. It could also, it could also be. So the elves could also be Shalto and Dorcasch, and Valanor could be the gym, because they did a workout together with Atlas, Creatine Cycle.

Starting point is 01:00:08 And they're looking in fighting form. Well, let me tell you about Gusto, the unified platform for payroll benefits in HR, built to evolve with modern small and medium-sized businesses. And the backbone of TBPN. Yes, it is. So there's some, there's some, oh, we do. Yes. Let's do it.

Starting point is 01:00:27 In the Restream Waiting Room, we have Shervin Pishavar. And we will welcome him to the TVP and Ultrardome. Shervin, how are you doing? Good to see you. Thank you so much. We're good. Good to see you again. Thank you so much for taking the time to hop on the show.

Starting point is 01:00:42 Maybe you could start with just give us the highest level of what's going on in your world, what's going on around the world. How are you interpreting the news of the last few weeks? This has been going on for more than two weeks. How are you introducing this at the highest level possible? At the highest level possible, this is one of the greatest displays of courage by humans, young Iranians and Iranians of every age. By the millions are in the street the last couple weeks, demanding their freedom.

Starting point is 01:01:22 They've been living in an open-air prison for the last 47 years. The work that the Crown Prince Reza Palavi has been doing has succeeded in having millions of people calling out for him to return, for there to be a process towards a democracy, towards a transition process. The people are demanding their freedom. And just in the last 48 hours, the numbers are staggering. that 12,000 people have been killed by the army, the military, the supreme leader, Chominee, who is one of the most evil humans on the planet, has ordered the mass killing of people. So you have an open-air prison where people have no freedoms,

Starting point is 01:02:13 and now you have an extermination camp happening. So you have horrific videos coming out. These people are defenseless. They have nothing to protect themselves except their hopes and dreams that are demands for freedom. They're calling out for Reza Pallavi to return and he's the son of the last king. He's a big believer in freedom and democracy and has a plan for reconstruction and many of us, including myself, have joined his efforts and his movement. And now the difference is you have President Trump, you know, outwardly saying to the Iranian people, we have your back.

Starting point is 01:03:03 We're locked and loaded. That gave the people the courage to come out and protest for the last couple weeks. And this is not a protest movement anymore. This is a revolution. They want a complete change in the government. And what we're working on is essentially a process to have an interim government led by Rezapalavi, who millions of people are asking for. And the time to act is now. President Trump said that he has their back.

Starting point is 01:03:36 And at any minute, that can be – he had reaffirmed that today. You know, Prime Minister Netanyahu has said the same things. and the connection, by the way, is very biblical between the Jewish people and the Persian people. Cyrus, the great 2,500 years ago, earned a spot in the Bible by freeing the Jews from slavery in Babylon, returning them to their homeland in Jerusalem and rebuilding their temple. He celebrated by the Jews, he celebrated by the Persians, he celebrated by the Christians. He had the first declaration of human rights, and then biblical symmetry, 2,500 years later, it's the Jewish people who were helping the Persian people free themselves from the shackles of slavery

Starting point is 01:04:27 from these terrorists that have held them in an open-air prison for the last 47 years. The whole world has been reshaped by the huge mistake of 1979 of allowing these extremists, Marxists, Islamists, coalition to take over, and we've seen the effect they've had. They funded all of the terrorist organizations throughout the Middle East, including Hamas and Hezbollah. And now we see the invasion of Europe and the UK and, you know, potentially America as well by extremist ideologies. And that needs to end. It needs to end now. You see the people that's happening right now. What's the next domino to fall? Like what does forward movement look like for the revolution?

Starting point is 01:05:18 Do you want to get to like tens of millions of protesters? Is it just growing the protest movement? Is there an election process? Is there some specific mechanic that we're waiting to look for? We're beyond the tens of millions. Tens of millions were in the streets in the last couple weeks. It's the biggest numbers ever. The Crown Prince Rezapalavi has been calling for people to come.

Starting point is 01:05:41 in the streets at certain times and they've been listening. We have an open channel of communications because of Starlink. These freedom technologies, as I call it, I've been working on that since 2010. I had a dinner with the Secretary of State back then, and I said the last bastion of dictatorship is the router, and we need to be able to use satellites to bring beam internet communications to people so that dictators and tyrants can't block the internet. So what are they doing? So the regime is making efforts to neutralize Starlink.

Starting point is 01:06:14 Is that correct? That's right. I actually, when I started this project with a band of rebels, in 2022, we went to SpaceX Starlink, bought tons of Starlink and we figured out three different routes to smuggle it into the country to get it to the protesters. At the time, there were only nine. starlings in the country and now there's thousands. And those starlings are the way that these videos that we're all seeing from the protests are reaching the world.

Starting point is 01:06:50 Otherwise, now they're using military jammers to block and jamming connections. And luckily, you know, Elon and his team are some of the smartest humans on the planet. So they've figured out how to, you know, get around that. Ukraine was a great laboratory for that as well. And when the Starlink's went there, it changed the whole dynamic of the war. And I had played a role in making some introductions there. And now what we're seeing is the same dynamic in Iran. Now there's tens of thousands of Starlinked.

Starting point is 01:07:30 They're getting around the jamming. President Trump reached out to Elon. It's in the news yesterday for more help with Starlink. So, you know, this is something as an industry, as Silicon Valley and tech, that we should be very proud of. These technologies that we work on are what I call freedom technologies. And they're part of the arsenal of taking down really these criminal and terrorist organizations and tyrants that have taken over sovereign nations with nuclear bombs or attempting to get the nuclear bombs. So, you know, these are the technologies that can be used increasingly so to let humans have the freedoms and the democracies that we're so blessed to have in America. You know, I escaped Iran during the Iran-Iraq war at bombs falling on me as a kid.

Starting point is 01:08:25 And my father had to escape Iran because he was a journalist, radio intelligence for the last Shaw. and he bravely put the foreign language broadcast to let people know how to get out of the country to save it a lot of lives. And the Supreme Leader Dan Khomeini put him on the execution list. So I didn't see my dad for two years. Bombs were falling every night. And I remember as an eight-year-old kid, all my drawings were of war of tanks and guns. And I had this fantasy as an eight-year-old. I was really into remote control play.

Starting point is 01:09:02 And I thought, what if I could use these RC planes to bomb Khomeini's house? And now 47 years later, under the 47th president, that possibility is very real. Yeah. What is the dynamic between the armed forces that are killing protesters? How do you wake up and put on a uniform and then go gun down your countrymen? Like how to like how is that how is that sustainable at what point? At what point do those people start to turn? We've seen this in other revolutions.

Starting point is 01:09:44 You know, people, you know, you can't kill 50 million people. At some point, people begin to defect. And I was with the Crown Prince just a couple days ago. And, you know, one of the stories was that there's, you know, thousands of people are calling in sick from the military and the police. That's a form of a labor strike. And they don't want to kill innocent people. They've been shipping in mercenaries who don't even speak Farsi or Persian.

Starting point is 01:10:21 And they've been using mercenaries as well to kill innocent people. These are occupiers. They're not Iranian. Their souls are not Iranian. They're Islamic extremists that took over a country. We should have never allowed it to happen. And a free democratic Iran going back to the roots of who we are would be the greatest peace and economic dividend in the world. We've been working on something called the Cyrus Accords, which we want to basically join the Abraham Accords and have an Iran and in Israel that are at peace, in Iran and the Middle East that are at peace together.

Starting point is 01:11:01 a new digital Silk Road where all these economies are working together, jobs are being created. And some of the greatest engineers in the world are Iranian, as we all know, Silicon Valley is full of incredible Iranian-American entrepreneurs. The calculations I have, if you add up Uber, Google, eBay, all the different companies that were either founded or early on built by Iranian-Americans, it's in the trillions of dollars of contributions to the American economy, and that's only with a million Iranians. Imagine with 92 million brilliant Iranians what could be unleashed in the world. Instead of exporting terror will export hope and innovation. How have economics played a role, or the local economy played a role in this current revolution?

Starting point is 01:11:57 I know that's part of what's just frustration. with the state of things, I think was the regime offering some effectively like stimulus checks or something of that sort? I saw something like that. But what's going on that I'm sure that's kind of feeding into the movement? Well, the currency has collapsed. As of yesterday, the conversion rate to the dollar was zero. The currency has collapsed.

Starting point is 01:12:26 Inflation has gone out of control. I don't think this is the interview for soundboard. Yeah. We're coping. It's okay. But the water system has collapsed. The power system has collapsed. This is a perfect storm.

Starting point is 01:12:48 And we're days away. If action is taken and the head of the snake is cut off, I predict there will be 50 million Iranians in the street celebrating. and, you know, Reza Palavi returning interim government that would be recognized by all the governments in the world that are aligned with freedom and democracy and the Iranian people. This is a moral cause of our time. These are the brave hearts of our time.

Starting point is 01:13:18 These young people, by the millions, are sacrificing their lives for freedom that they might not live to see. Think about that for a second. You know, that is the kind of spirit that started American and started the Western democracies of the world. My great-grandfather started the first constitutional revolution from Tabriz in 1906 and recruited an American named Morgan Schuster. If you read the book, The Strangling of Persia by Morgan Schuster, is a Midwest American, a brilliant man who has a statue in Iran in his honor from back. back then, and they tried, they were inspired by Jeffersonian democracy to bring democracy

Starting point is 01:14:03 to America. And that paved the way for all the modern rebuilding the Palavi, the original Palavi Reza Palavi, and then his father, Mohammad Reza Palavi, continued. And by 1978, Iran had the fourth largest army in the world. It had one of the greatest economies in the world. was coming there, Sinatra, and it was a beautiful, beautiful place. And there was a coalition of Islamic extremists in the beginning of the woke Marxist socialist era that we're now seeing in places like New York and Mamdani.

Starting point is 01:14:41 And they've exported this strategy because it was so successful for them to take a major strategic asset and country with major resources like Iran. and own it and then use those assets that God bless Iran with to export that ideology and that terror. So this is the fight of our times. If we defeat the Islamic regime, we will unleash an era of peace and prosperity for the world. What's the history of protests in Iran? It feels like there's been small moments, 2009 with disputed elections, 2017, 2019, 2020, It feels like every few years there's a moment that could grow.

Starting point is 01:15:30 It hasn't in the past. Walk me through some of the history and then help me understand why this time might be different. That's a great question and also a good framework to think about what's happening exactly at this moment. The next 48 hours, I think, is do or die. Each time those protests got to a moment where it could have turned into a change, a significant change. in the government. Like 2009 and the Green Revolution of 2009 and 10, you know, the president, at the time, President Obama,

Starting point is 01:16:05 made a major, major critical mistake, and he didn't back to protesters the way President Trump is backing the protesters. And when you don't back them, when you don't give them the courage that they will have the support of America and other democracies in the world that care about freedom and care about this, you know,

Starting point is 01:16:25 destroying terrorism that is a threat to our way of life, it fizzles out. And then they learn, the Islamic regime learns, and they become even more extremists and abusive and, you know, causing, you know, the hangings by the thousands and imprisonments and rapes and to scare people and terrify people. They keep power through fear. And the thing I learned when I went to try to spread

Starting point is 01:16:54 satellite communications in those revolutions in Libya I went there two weeks before Gaddafi was killed and went to Benghazi, went to Tripoli a month after it was freed, went to Hear Square.

Starting point is 01:17:11 I wrote something called Fear is finite and hope is infinite. When the people lose their fear is when freedom movements actually succeed. And the people, as you can see, by the millions in the streets, even with all the killings, they're still coming out.

Starting point is 01:17:27 Last night, they still came out. They've lost their fear, and that's when these types of tyrants fall. So if there is support from the air, from the skies, like Starlink, that we began that project patiently in order so when this day came, there would be open communications with the world and coordination, but also support from the sky in terms of taking out some of these things. tyrants, you know, and we took out the nuclear capability before because that was an existential threat, but these evil leaders are as bad as a nuclear bomb. They're just a nuclear bomb in a

Starting point is 01:18:10 human form. I feel like a lot of people who grew up and came of age during the war on terror don't have a lot of optimism about regime change. They tend to think that even if they're someone, some interesting person, a lot of energy to come in and lead. The infrastructure is so important because a government's just not just one person. There's ministers and leaders and all sorts of a chain that needs to form. And if you don't have a full government ready to go, how can you just rip and replace, drop in someone new? Their minds go to the debathification in Iraq and all the chaos.

Starting point is 01:18:54 that happened there. How do you think Americans who've, you know, sort of been blackpilled on regime change in the Middle East should be thinking about a positive outcome here? Well, one experience in Iraq, first of all, Iran is not Iraq. It's 92 million people. You know, 87% don't even consider themselves religious. You know, and so it's a very different nation that is yearning for freedom, loves America, loves Western culture, wants their freedom. And let us not forget, America saved the world in World War II. The Marshall Plan rebuilt all of Europe. Look at Japan's success.

Starting point is 01:19:46 And so, you know, and then you look at Reagan and tear down this wall and the pressure. that he put on in the Soviet Union and all of the clandestine efforts that happened to weaken the Soviet Union, are, is Germany today a bad place to live? It wasn't until, you know, potentially extremist Islam invaded Europe. Is Poland a bad place?

Starting point is 01:20:14 I was just in Poland multiple times for my work and my investments. It's a thriving economy. So, you know, we have to look at the positive examples of what's possible when you unleash freedom, you have economic boom and you have humans that are thriving and contributing to our world. Well, thank you so much for coming and giving us the update. Best of luck to you and everyone involved and stay safe and best of luck. We'll talk to you soon, Shervin. Thanks so much. We'll talk to you. Cheers. Goodbye. Console. Console builds

Starting point is 01:20:48 AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR and finance support giving employees instant. resolution for access requests and password resets. We got to go over to the OpenAI device. There's new leaks, alleged leaks. We'll see. It's a new audio wearable, meant to replace AirPods. So the lines with what the information has been leaking. The code name, Sweet P.

Starting point is 01:21:12 Interesting. It looks like a metal eggstone with two little capsules behind the ear, aiming for a two nanometer chip, maybe a custom chip for phone-like actions. Big ambition, 50 million units in year one. That's a lot of devices to sell. Foxcon has been told to prepare for five total devices by Q4 of 2028. All not known, but a home style device and a pen are still considered.

Starting point is 01:21:38 I wonder how serious going to Foxcon, if you're opening AI. You go to Foxcon and you say, prepare for five devices. What does that really mean? Does it mean, okay, help me prototype, do some demo runs, build me one or two, and maybe we'll do one of the five, maybe we'll do two of the five. Is Foxcon really reorienting everything about this? Are they totally prepared to make five?

Starting point is 01:22:01 How serious is that? Serious is that? I don't know. All I know is that it's exciting. I like hardware. It's fun. We're seeing it. We're seeing glimpse of this with the kids,

Starting point is 01:22:11 with the board and with the, what was it called? Camera box? No. Sticker box. Yeah. Sticker box. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:22:19 I think, I mean, opening eye, it sounds like Johnny's team are the ones that are kind of pushing for this form factor, according to obviously this is a rumor, but picking a form factor similar to AirPods, which have insane product market fit, which last time I checked her like a $20 billion revenue line for Apple. It could be a standalone business by itself. And again, if you look back to the infamous interview with Gersner, Sam was saying, Like, we have a device coming. Yeah. We have a device coming.

Starting point is 01:22:52 Don't worry. 50 million minutes. That's a lot of revenue, potentially. I mean, I don't know if they sell them. What do you think the price point for a, for an open AI device would be? $300, $300, $9,99, $3,500? Like the Apple. I feel like they have to stay in the range of the AirPods.

Starting point is 01:23:13 And AirPods are between $100 and $300, basically. So low, single-digit hundreds. Well, Andrew Curran has a projection for what it'll look like. If they ship this, I think they had an absolute blockbuster on their hands. I would rock that. We're already wearing inner monitors. I don't know if you can see over here. Just upgrade it to this.

Starting point is 01:23:37 This goes so hard. The reason I like it is because the computer part is actually on the back. So it frees you up to just stay locked in. Super cool. And also, I love that there's a display that you can't see. but everyone else can. So everyone else knows, oh, he's doing a deep research report right now.

Starting point is 01:23:54 Oh, he's locked in. Let's check in on John. John, can you turn around for a second? Oh, okay. Three green lights. He's printing. He's making money. Ryan says, this will be as successful

Starting point is 01:24:03 as humane, friend, rabbit, et cetera. Oh, no. Yeah, let us know in the chat if you're bullish or bearish on the open AI device. A lot of risk, but a lot of resources. A lot of good people over there. Anyway, whenever they announce it,

Starting point is 01:24:18 you know that they're going to live that they're going to get on Restream. One live stream, 30 plus destinations. If you want to multistream, go to Restream.com. In other news, we got to go to Apple Creator Studio. Tyler, can you break this down for us? What are they doing? Who

Starting point is 01:24:33 are they taking shots at? Apple, Creator Studio. It seems they're basically just rolling all of their software. I don't know if there's actually any new software, but they're just like rolling it together into some subscription. It's kind of like Creative Cloud. Yeah, same thing. Yeah. Okay. Because, I mean, they already have the kind of same, like there's Final Cut in the premiere.

Starting point is 01:24:53 So, Jaws here says, Meet Apple Creator Studio. It's giving creators every kind, of every kind, easy access to powerful, intuitive tools for video, music, imaging, and productivity, all supercharged by intelligent features that speed up and elevate their work. Were they previously selling Final Cut Pro separately? I think they were, right? Yeah, usually. Yeah, I remember as a kid paying two, I was like, well, I'm going to spend $200 on a piece of software, and that felt like $200,000. And you got some for free. Like, you get I Movie for free, but then Apple, but then Final Cut is an upgrade. And I was actually thinking about purchasing a Mac Mini or something. I was going through the checkout flow. And one of the options that they put right there is, do you want to buy Final Cut Pro for an extra 200-something bucks? And so it seems like they're maybe doing away with that. Let's dig in. Apple has just introduced Apple Creator Studios, says Aaron here, analyst at Mac Rumors.

Starting point is 01:25:49 Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, PixelMator Pro, motion, compressor, and mainstage, plus new AI features and premium content and keynote, pages, and numbers come together in a single subscription. They have the games subscription. They have a, don't they have a health subscription as well? There's music, there's news. Apple has like seven different subscriptions now that I think about it. Yeah. I would love to know what the average.

Starting point is 01:26:13 iPhone customer spends on software monthly, and what Apple's take is on it. Both, they're printing. Their services, businesses is everything at this point. Yeah, I guess you could just divide services revenue. Well, services revenue, they don't really break it all out. Whenever they talk about services, they talk about Apple TV, all the wonderful TV shows and movies that they're producing. But then a lot of the services revenue comes from the app store, 30% cut. You're laughing. what's funny. Dave says, Jordy,

Starting point is 01:26:44 you dork, you didn't pirate it. Honestly, I, my father was very much like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't steal from the grocery store,

Starting point is 01:26:55 don't, don't steal from, you wouldn't pirate a car. Big computer, big Apple. Yeah, respect, big tech from day one. Respect, cognition.

Starting point is 01:27:04 They're the makers of Devin, the AI software engineer. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. I mentioned it earlier, but Dwar Keshe Patel and Shalto Douglas did a gym workout with creatine cycle. There's a new series. He's going to hit the gym with AI researchers.

Starting point is 01:27:22 This is what the modern media landscape needs for sure. I love it. Very, very fun. And Dworkesh says, in his defense, Shaltow was almost Olympian. Very, very good. Qantian. Atlas looking absolutely diced in this. It's insane.

Starting point is 01:27:38 It's insane. Oh, quick shout out to Don. Donnie Honeg, who says, TVPN is the only show I like hearing the ad reads on. They just make it so fun. Well, you're welcome, Donnie. Here's another ad read. 11 Labs. Build Intelligent Real-Time, Conversational Agents.

Starting point is 01:27:55 Reimagined human technology interaction with 11 Labs. Thank you for the sport, Donnie. We've got to talk about 11 Labs growth. Maddie highlighted it yesterday. He said zero to 100 million ARR was 20 months, 100 to 200. 10 months, 200 to 300 to 330 was just five months. So little quite the acceleration. Really, really good. And he is looking sharp here on Bloomberg. And also just it's such an interesting story because when this came out, it was it was the textbook critique of like the

Starting point is 01:28:30 other labs are going to steamroll you. Like they have all the researchers, they have all the compute, they have all the money. Oh, it doesn't matter what you raised. They raised a hundred times. that, this is a side project. They're going to be able to whip this up in a cave with scraps. You're going to get steamrolled, and it just hasn't happened. And I think it goes back to the focus on, you know, pure play focus. We've seen Anthropic with the focus on code do really well. This focus on voice and the focus on taste, sort of the mid-jury of audio is my new frame, like frame of mind here, that it's less of a commodity, more opinionated. I think people realize when it seems like just put the weights in the bag and you're good to go.

Starting point is 01:29:15 Anyway, do we have our next guest here? Let's read through this back and forth between Tim Sweeney and Palmer Lucky because they're going back and forth. PC Gamer reported that Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney argues banning Twitter over its ability to AI generate adult images of minors is just gatekeepers attempting to censor all of their political opponents. Tim Sweeney fired back and said, this is a vile lie by PC Gamer. I criticized a government official for pressuring Apple and Google to block a speech app owned by their political opponent, deplatforming 500 million users on the pretense of stopping a small number of users

Starting point is 01:29:52 from distributing disgusting content. And Palmer, Lucky, chimed in and said, PC Gamer loves to make things up about people they don't like, and he's going back to a report that PC Gamer put out about This is insane headline. Tech billionaires, including Palmer Lucky, set up dumb new bank for those who didn't get burned enough in the 2022 crypto crash. You could write a headline like that. That's insane.

Starting point is 01:30:21 Why does PC Gamer... It's so hard. They literally use the word dumb. I mean, I guess this is opinion piece or something, but it's all about the stable coins, and they call them a bond villain. Wow, they really don't like him. This is crazy. Palmer replied, he said, quote, the point of SVB and thus Arab War is risky bets on fledgling startups that are unlikely to be backed by traditional finance, which has all these pesky rules and regulations. Why are you lying? The point is literally the opposite. Yeah, you don't want to recreate SVB because it didn't turn out.

Starting point is 01:30:54 We don't want to keep our next guest waiting. We don't. So before we bring them in, let me tell you about vaub.com, where DTC brands, B2B startups, and AI companies advertise on streaming TV. Pick channels, target audiences, and measure sales, just like on meta. Well, we have the president and CEO of Booz, Alan Hamilton, here. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining. Hey, guys, good to see you.

Starting point is 01:31:18 Good to see you, too. Great to be. I love your, I want to talk about the partnership with Andrews and Horowitz, but first I want you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your journey because it's a classic overnight success that we love here on the show. Overnight Success. I love it. Thank you for the special effects. I was wondering if you're going to use some. I'll use a lot as much as you want.

Starting point is 01:31:41 Born and race in Argentina, I came here to go to school, find my way to Wisconsin, O'Clair, of all places, loved it there. I went to grad school, joined Booz Allen. This summer will be 35 years. I was a summer intern with Booz Allen. Wow. And here I am, you know, and I thought I was going to be here for two years. fill in love with the people, with the work, with the culture, and I kept getting challenged. And every time I wanted to leave, they promoted me. So I stayed. That's amazing. That's a virtuous cycle for you.

Starting point is 01:32:17 Were there any breaks? I know that a lot of my friends who were interns in consulting or banking would leave for a couple of years doing MBA and then maybe come back. Was there any of that? Or were you just there the whole time? No. Right through. I'm truly a lifer. It's amazing. What advice are you? you giving to the next generation of folks who might be interns right now at Booz Allen. Is that opportunity still there? Do you see the lifer path as being one that you recommend to the new intern?

Starting point is 01:32:48 100%. 100%. Look, I mean, I think, first of all, I tell everybody, you got to find that organization that were your personal values and what you want to do matches the organizational values and what they want to do. And when you find one, grab on with both hands, because that, that's, you want to do. that alignment is what keeps you going. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:33:07 And then I say to people, look, I mean, I, early my career, I wanted to get promoted and this and that and the other thing. And then I, at some point, I said, you know what? I just want to learn stuff. And then they were like, you got to be to see you up. Yeah. Yeah, what, uh, it is kind of as. And I started getting promoted faster.

Starting point is 01:33:23 Yeah. That's great. Well, yeah, it's kind of rough. If you're really good at getting promoted, it's kind of rough to kind of, you've kind of capped out a little bit here. But, uh, not many, not many promotions left. I come to work because I love what I do. And this has been true for the last 35 years.

Starting point is 01:33:41 And yeah, at the beginning, you know, I wasn't a bit of the rat race. I got off of that. And literally, I just said, let's go learn stuff. You know, what do I not know about? Let me try and go learn how to do that. Yeah. And that's what keeps me here. How of the last few years of the AI boom been?

Starting point is 01:33:58 Has it turned it more into a rat race? Has there been more Greenfield projects that have been less of a rat? race. How is the AI boom transformed your business, what you're working on, how you're spending your time? So this has been awesome. First of all, you should know I have a background in statistics. So I was like doing early work on neural networks. And if I've been born 20 years later, I would have been a data scientist, but we didn't have cool titles like that. But I was a big data guy when big data was tiny compared to what it is now. Let's give it up for big data. We love big data.

Starting point is 01:34:33 We love big data here. Yeah, you know, about a dozen years ago, I took the strong form view that said, you know, AI really is going to revolutionize everything. We need to get, as Booz Allen, at the leading edge of that. We built essentially the largest, we're the largest AI provider to the federal government. Most of our businesses with the government, we've been the largest cyber player in the federal space. going back now maybe 20 plus years. And I've always thought about it as AI and, right?

Starting point is 01:35:10 It's this intersection of AI and cyber, AI and space, AI and autonomy. And that's what we've been trying to build. And, you know, Boozell and really people think of us as a consulting firm because we were one once. That's the company that I joined. Sure. But if you look at us now, our business is we're in the business of taking. leading-edge technology and bringing it to government missions. Everything from military missions to space, to payment systems, to public health.

Starting point is 01:35:45 We're bringing tech into all of that, which is why we build this amazing partnerships. How, yeah, how has the last year change your relationship with the government that, you know, if you start 2025, I think, about Doge and a bunch of political energy around reducing cost and maybe reducing budgets and doing more with less, which of course software and technology can help with. At the same time, I saw a headline that President Trump thinks the defense budgets to be $1.5 trillion. And that feels like, okay, expand, and we're in a different mode. So has that been whiplash? Or have, how have you processed setting up your business to deliver what you need? to the government across those sorts of narrative arcs that have rolled out over the last,

Starting point is 01:36:38 you know, 12 months. So if you think about our business, there's two pieces to it. There's work that we do for national security. Yeah. That's about three quarters of our business. Wow. And then there's work that we do for more of the civilian agencies. Think about things like the VA, human health services.

Starting point is 01:37:00 Treasury, IRS, those kinds of agencies. The administration has been pretty consistent. On the more of the civilian side, they've been looking very hard for ways to reduce cost. On the national security side, they've been looking to reprogram against top priorities. And so this idea that we're going to spend more on defense going forward, that obviously needs to be approved by Congress.

Starting point is 01:37:30 and all of that. But the president has been pretty consistent about wanting to rebuild the military, ensure that our military continues to be the preeminent one in the world. And we view bringing technology into that and working with the commercial technology providers to make their technology useful into those missions,

Starting point is 01:37:49 which is not a straight translation by any means, as a big part of what we do. So we develop tech that sits on top or together with their tech, and together we build things said that neither one of us could do. So what does that mean for hiring? I imagine that you're partnering with the foundation lab companies, not necessarily trying to

Starting point is 01:38:11 go up against Mark Zuckerberg and pay a billion dollars for some fancy AI researcher. Let Google DeepMind, let OpenAI, let Anthropic and other labs build the foundation models, and then you can go and implement them. So what type of person is really excelling? How technical are they? Are you hiring computer scientists, MBAs, both? Who's thriving? We're hiring largely, think of it as AI researchers.

Starting point is 01:38:40 We have a very large quantum team where we hire astrophysicists. No way. And so we're really at the leading edge of these technologies working side by side with all of our partners. I joke about the fact that I knew Jensen back when he was only worth a couple billion dollars. And he and our companies have been working together on some of these things since like 2017. So we've been at this for a while.

Starting point is 01:39:10 I mean, you talk about Mark and Meta. We took Lama and working with them translated into something that could be ported onto the International Space Station. Okay. So it became space. which is, it's made for some pretty cool memes. But now on the research side of the International Space Station, there is for the first time a large language model there so that instead of going through all of these paper manuals,

Starting point is 01:39:38 every time they need to fix something, they can actually do natural language queries and do all of that. So that's the type of work that we're doing. If you think about it, most commercial tech, it's oriented towards the idea that you're going to be in a data center that has perfect access to energy, perfect access to fiber. You know, it's 24-7 uptime. When you start dealing with some of the missions that we support,

Starting point is 01:40:04 you're at the edge, you're in the desert, you're in space, you're underwater, you have no connectivity, form factor matters, power matters. And we need to take all of these amazing technology and these trillions of dollars in investment and make it useful in those settings. And for that, we build an additional tech that is proprietary to us that combined with theirs really does wonderful things. And we started working with some of the companies that are A16C. Yeah. And discover that, you know, there's a lot we were doing there with the companies that were already oriented towards our market.

Starting point is 01:40:44 But I know you had been on the show on Friday. they have 1100 companies or more in their portfolio. The vast majority of them are not thinking about these missions, but they're building many a building technologies that are highly applicable. Sure. So if we grab their tech and our tech and put it together in a different way, we expand markets, create differentiation. It's all sorts of good stuff that happens.

Starting point is 01:41:10 Yeah, you mentioned you knew Jensen when he was just worth a few billion dollars. When did you meet the Andresen team? How long has this partnership been in the works? And then I'd love to know more about the nature of the exclusivity of the partnership, how that all takes shape and anything else you can tell us about it. Sure. So we've been working with companies that are in their portfolio for years without actually engaging with A16D directly.

Starting point is 01:41:41 So Wuzell and Databricks, for example, have done a number of things together in the Department of Defense. We do things with Andrew. We have a partnership with Shield AI that makes a ton of sense because we're building our tech and our cybersecurity tech on top of HiveMind, which is their core autonomy product. And then we about a year plus ago, I started talking to Ben and to Mark. And we started shaping this idea that there's more we could do together at their level that, you know, that, you know, know, we could begin to think about not just the companies that are obviously playing in this market, but the broader ecosystem and thinking about, okay, how we create a way to even do that?

Starting point is 01:42:29 What's that discovery process look like? How do we create opportunities? How do we vet them? How do we manage our tech? So that, you know, and that's been over the course of the last year, we've done a bunch of stuff that has gotten us all super excited leading up to this announcement on Monday. What are some of the earliest stage companies that would qualify for this program? Are you working with like Series A stage? They name an accelerator. There's companies that come in with just one or two co-founders and they get $100,000 check. And then you have a data breaks, which is a $100 billion business.

Starting point is 01:43:06 How do you size the partnerships? So we're working, you know, we're almost working problem back. So what is the problem we're trying to solve? and who has a piece of these puzzles. So we even have our own little corporate VC. Sure. Fund, and there's companies in there. Seek is a great quantum company.

Starting point is 01:43:25 Elbedo is doing very low Earth orbit. Yeah, I love L'Bito. Satellites. Let's see, Scout AI is doing autonomy on the ground. Sure. Firestorm is doing essentially 3D-printed drones. Oh. And we think about, okay, so what's,

Starting point is 01:43:44 what is Firestone doing? What's Shield doing? What are we doing? If we bring all of this together, can we solve a unique problem that we know exists that doesn't have a solution today? So, you know,

Starting point is 01:43:58 we're not so interested in the size of the company so much as we're interested in problem back, what can we solve and how do we scale it? So we're working with Mistrial, for example, which is in their portfolio, on NATO-type problems and European ally problems. As you know, Europe is beginning to spend their fair share on their defense budgets.

Starting point is 01:44:20 Well, they got a series of issues that we can tackle together that weren't on anybody's radar. So that's the kind of stuff that frankly super excites me. And I think this is where there's a ton of energy and some really cool stuff coming along. Sure, sure. Jority, anything else? Yeah, very cool. Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time. Yeah, it's great to meet you.

Starting point is 01:44:40 Talk with us. Congratulations on the partnership. and we're excited to hear more. I'm sure a bunch of portfolio founders will be on the show. Yeah, join us again as you guys have more announcements. Yeah, we'd love to keep doing. Absolutely. Thank you guys.

Starting point is 01:44:52 Have a great rest of your day. Cheers. Goodbye. Let me tell you about phantom cash, fund your wallet without exchanges or middlemen, and spend with a phantom card. Parker Conrad, the founder and CEO of Rippling,

Starting point is 01:45:08 chimed in on the one-time California billionaire tax. says leave before the series B. I don't think of Parker is outspoken against the California Democrats very often, but he's quoting Jason Lemkin here, who has more contact. Yeah, I can read through this. So Jason says, my take on California's one-time billionaire tax, it's much worse than it looks. Will it pass? Yes, likely. It only needs 50% plus one voter approval. CEI, you and CTA have done this before, Prop 55-1-63% in 2016. Will it get tied up in litigation? Almost certainly retroactive wealth tax on a tax type California has never had. Equals due process challenges. Billioners have the legal budgets for years of fights. But it's clearly only the

Starting point is 01:45:58 start that the goal is an annual tax, not one time. And the target is 25 to $50 million net worth, folks, including illiquid holdings, i.e. early stage founders raising a series B. And the one-time framing is strategic. Same coalition already has AB259 written an annual 1% wealth tax at a greater than $50 million threshold with plans to go to $25 million. It's been introduced three years running. The one-time tax removes the constitutional barrier. Once that's gone, the annual version becomes a much easier ballot measure. California Policy Center said, This SEIU hopes to keep Medi-Cal spending growing. It may need to place repeated wealth taxes on the ballot,

Starting point is 01:46:40 potentially lowering the threshold as billionaires flee. The risk for founders at $1 billion, you're taxing 200 people at $50 million. You're taxing 23,000 households, including the most successful founders on paper before any liquidity event. To imagine you raise a series B, suddenly you have 50 million of paper gains,

Starting point is 01:47:02 and suddenly the government's coming over and saying, like, yeah, we need you to come up with a piece of that or get on a payment plan. And so then you're effectively like, you know, just like building up a debt to the California government that as of right now seems like it just doesn't go away, even if your company fails, it's like you owe that to the state. So what will happen here is people might,

Starting point is 01:47:23 if this goes through as is, people will start companies like Parker saying they'll start the company. And maybe they'll raise it. like a pre-seed round, seed round, something like that. And then they'll be like, okay, I literally have to move the company. Or maybe they won't even start it in California in the first place. And Newsom has come out in the last 24 hours and is against the tech. So he is on siding with the tech billionaires.

Starting point is 01:47:55 Interesting. When I see names like Parker Conrad, Vinod Kosovo, like I don't think of these as like the tech right. I just think of these as like tech people. And so to see them pushing back against this is it's less of a political issue and more of a more, more of a practical issue about where companies will be led from. I saw a different angle that potentially the super voting, like control could be used to determine how much you have to pay. And so you could have a founder who has super voting shares. They have 90% of the voting shares. But they take on a lot of.

Starting point is 01:48:32 million dollar company yeah the bill as the the the the way it's written today they'd be taxed as if they have a 90 million dollar position in the company yes which is just insane they might have a by that point they might have a 25% exactly might have less depending if they're yeah yeah yeah you know multiple founders so uh pirate wires has a great piece on this at courage everybody to read it's california's tech industry kill switch from mike salana yeah uh he says it's not a tax on wealth the union's ballot prop is designed to target the very concept of founder-controlled companies. Yeah. And it will force the technology industry out of the state.

Starting point is 01:49:08 Yeah, it would be very, very weird to see a situation where a company gets started. They still go to San Francisco because that's a fun place to be. That's an exciting place to be. But then slowly, the executive ranks are just relocating to Inclined Village or Las Vegas or Texas. Eventually you pull everyone. I was surprised at Jensen, Jensen was like, yeah, I don't mind it. It's like, were you just trying to earn? points, right, with the general population?

Starting point is 01:49:34 Like, at what point, like, so many of his employees would be subject to this, right? At a certain point, yes, and I don't know, it could be very complicated. It certainly seems like a, like, yeah, just very, very complicated position. Austin Allred says, I wonder how many founders in California know that if you are making 250K a year and move to Texas or Florida, you pay $2,500 a month less in taxes. Switching state of residence will save enough to cover rent. And of course, Austin, I believe he, doesn't he believe, doesn't he live in Utah? I don't think he lives in California, although he is part of the Silicon Valley community.

Starting point is 01:50:13 And Newsom did chime in. He vows to stop the tax. Where are the prediction markets on the tax? Will this happen? While we look that up, let's pull up Gary Tan. He says it's time for Silicon Valley to actually get involved and organize in California. one, financially tough times are ahead for California. California's government will almost certainly try to loot Silicon Valley.

Starting point is 01:50:34 Silicon Valley will flee. Four, this will create a severe loss for the Bay Area in California and for the United States. Five, the only way out is for successful technologists to run and win for office at every level in the 2020s, midterm elections, especially for governor. Quotes from Newsom says, this will be defeated. There's no question in my mind. I'll do what I have to do to protect this. the state, the governor has long opposed to wealth tax because of concerns.

Starting point is 01:51:03 All of that is just very, very complicated, but there's really good news because now you can book a hotel on the moon. A new startup backed by Nvidia NY Combinator is planning to develop the first hotel on the moon by 2032. I'm going. I'm going. It's starting at $416,000 per night. We'll see where that actually lands. You can book on the... their website. But we have the perfect guest to discuss because we have Glenn Fogle, the president, CEO of booking.com. Hopefully we'll be able to book a hotel on the moon. We can ask him about it. He's in the Restream waiting room. Let's bring him in to the TBPN Ultradome. Glenn, how are you doing? What's happening? I'm doing well, and that's so exciting to hear hotels on the moon.

Starting point is 01:51:50 I know. I love it. A TamExpander. You guys were looking for more for more assets to bring on the platform. Why not go interplanetary? This thing is quite a lot of renders. So, you know, fingers crossed, they can turn it into reality. Yeah, but here's the thing. Do you remember the TV series? It was like, at

Starting point is 01:52:10 Venus, oh God, it was an AMC? It was Mad Men. Do you remember that? Yeah, Mad. There was an episode where the person who was supposed to be the head of Hilton, Conrad Hilton, and he'd hired the guy, and he wanted to have the Ed be about

Starting point is 01:52:26 putting a hotel on the moon. Ahead of their time. Ahead of their time, definitely. This company should go back and reference it. I'm sure there's some great copy buried in there. But fantastic to have you on the show. Would love just an introduction on yourself and the journey on how you got here. Well, the CEO of Bookingholdings and Booking.com, which is the largest subsidiary of booking holdings.

Starting point is 01:52:52 We have a number of different companies that I think many of your, watchers would know things like not just booking.com, but OpenTable, for example, or Kayak, or Priceline, and people who are out in Asia certainly have heard of a Goda and a number of other companies as well. And we do travel. Open Table, of course, doing restaurant reservations, but we've been around for a long time. Priceline.com was the first one in the States, and that went public in 1999. And I've been to the company since almost the start. I joined a 2000. So been around for a while. Where did where were you before before you joined? Before I joined it in 2000, I was a head trader for a guy named barn Biggs who was kind of a

Starting point is 01:53:38 legend on Wall Street and Morgan Stanley asset management and I left to join price line during that first internet boom period and I joined a week before the NASDAQ peaked in March of 2000, thereby proving a couple things. One, I absolutely should have left my job as trader because I just done what's known as top ticking to trade. That's amazing. Amazing time to leave, but then you're sitting there being like, is, are I going to have a job? Totally. Well, yeah, what matters is you, you saw it through. Did you ever, was there any, was there ever a point that you, uh, or any of your peers were like, okay, maybe the internet is just over? Or was it like, hey, we just, we really, we, it's just like we needed just really

Starting point is 01:54:24 hunker down and we got ahead of our skis and this is all inevitable, but it's just not, you know, like most things, it's not always up into the right forever. Well, yeah, a couple of things. First of all, certainly our stock went down. I'm going to do the reverse split number because it went, it went to under $8, but to stay listed. We had it actually do a reverse split. So we'll call it what at that time. So you can see in the chart, it's $6 because we'll get it back up. So even my mother at the time thought like, gee, do you still have a job? Is it coming up yet or not? And I left a pretty good job to do this.

Starting point is 01:55:02 But here's the thing. A long time ago, my career, I started out when I came out of college, and this is in the 80s. My first job is I was an IT guy, again at Morgan Stanley, different time period. He was in their back office doing coding for doing a whole bunch of real exciting things. One of the exciting things was things that we're doing in terms of algorithmic trading. Now, that was back in the day. We weren't calling it AI, though that's exactly what it was. You know, go from the mid-80s to joining in 2000.

Starting point is 01:55:33 I really believed in the future of using technology to make life so much better in so many different ways. Price line at the time was using technology to make it cheaper and easier to travel. So I never doubted the concept of technology is the – it's always been the – future. I mean, go back a couple hundred years, go back to the industrial revolution. Technology is a wonderful thing for improving the human condition. So I would not doubt that. I was a little concerned about our cash position. Everybody should always be. But in the general sense, I was there. Yeah. Never lost faith. How have you been processing all of the agentic commerce news? We had Harley from Shopify on the store on the show yesterday, talking about what Google's doing. Obviously,

Starting point is 01:56:19 ChatGPT is interested in Agentic Commerce being able to complete transactions in the LLMs, in the chat bots, in the apps. How are you thinking about your strategy in a world where people want to purchase things through text and chat? Well, look, people always want things to be easier. And agented commerce has a concept, is fantastic. And we are doing a lot of work with all the frontier players, absolutely, to be very hand in glove, working together to come up with solutions, using agentic ways so people can do things

Starting point is 01:56:55 easier, faster, better, et cetera, et cetera. That being said, it's going to take some time for things that are very complex, like a lot of travel. Now, I'm not down in that. We're going to be doing a lot of agendic travel transactions. Absolutely. It's just not going to be tomorrow. I'm really glad with some of the deals we've already done with all the players. It's not a single one that we haven't either set a deal with, done a deal with, working with, making progress with etc. But even more so is what we're going to do internally, what we're building ourselves. We have thousands of engineers. You know, one thing I don't know if you're watchers or if you watch your show, really understand the size of our company.

Starting point is 01:57:34 You know, we're approximately 170, 175 billion market cap company. Hit the gong, John. We've got a gong here. We'd love to hit it on your behalf. But what's even better is that, you know, that's twice as big as the next biggest player in travel. And I'm talking, you know, distribution of travel. I don't know all travel. Like number two, maybe it's Marriott today.

Starting point is 01:58:00 Oh, wow. Maybe I. And then after that, it falls off pretty dark. The biggest airline in the world is about a third of our market cap. I mean, Expedia is a fifth. I mean, so we have the size. We've got the scale to do the work to come up with these wonderful things that are going to be coming down to the pipe. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously it feels like it's advantageous to have as much experience as you have at the company for another tech transition. How are you thinking, we were talking to Harley about this, like, is this the, is this similar to the mobile moment or social moment? Obviously, with Shopify, they think a lot about brands, which were very much transformed by influencers showing off some leggings or some product that you want to buy, and so you go right there. And there was a

Starting point is 01:58:47 debate. Will it would that transaction happen on Instagram or on Facebook? It ultimately wound up happening on Shopify, but the ads platform was very valuable and there was an integration there. How are you tracking lessons from previous technology shifts in purchasing behavior to kind of prepare for the agentic transition if it happens this year or next year or whenever it happens? Yeah, and because it's so hard to predict the future, as we all know, is making sure you're covering all the options, trying to balance the amount of resources you're putting into things that you're building now versus making sure you continue to improve what you currently have going on that's producing the cash.

Starting point is 01:59:27 I mean, that's the thing is that it's always difficult when you have an ongoing entity like ours that's doing very well. And our investors like seeing the cash flow that we produce. They like the growth that we're showing right now. And they are always cautious, as investors should be, is where are you putting that, you know, cash that you're producing, is it going to be put into things that are not going to produce future increased cash? Is it going to be wasted or not?

Starting point is 01:59:52 And I believe we've got the right balance set up. We've got the right people. But in terms of people, I want to know, I'm asked this all the time. It's two questions. Are you going to be disintermediated by something new, something different, and be, are you growing fast enough right now to event that? I think we have it going well right now. I like the progress that we're making.

Starting point is 02:00:13 I like the numbers are showing up, and I like the new products we have coming out. So we'll see. But look, nobody has a guarantee. You have to every single day be working incredibly hard to keep up because the competition is very, very stiff. How difficult is it to, for an AI to act as a travel agent? Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. We've had this question where the AI model seems so powerful. They can build whole website.

Starting point is 02:00:43 they can write more complex code than I could write in a month. They can do it in just an hour. And yet I actually can't just say, hey, I need to get to New York, book me a flight. Because I wind up having all these weird preferences. I don't want to lay over. I'm okay flying early, but I don't really want to fly late. Yeah, when people talk, every lab wants to build the best, you know, super assistant.

Starting point is 02:01:06 And when I think about the moments where, like, a real EA in my life has delivered the most value. It's when I'm like, okay, this meeting's running late. I'm going to miss my flight. I need a rear, you know, and I'm just firing off a text being like, you know, I need to switch the car to pick me up like in an extra hour and I'm going to miss my flight. Find me the best flight. I don't want to lay over. Like I want to lay flat.

Starting point is 02:01:29 Like all these details that today that still takes, you know, that still takes real time. And so I'm curious for you like where do these experience, where do you see these experiences actually sitting? Is it in, you know, chat, GPT? or Gemini, or it's going to be sitting in Siri, or will it be sitting on booking.com, and you guys want to own that experience or both? Right. Or will it be in many of the places you just mentioned?

Starting point is 02:01:56 Because, for example, right now, let's look at what we have right now. We have some, we have 60, approximately 65% of the people who come to our site to buy something who do something, want to actually do that. They are coming to us direct. Now, I'm doing that number. I'm not including our B to B business on the site.

Starting point is 02:02:13 there, but 65% of the people are coming in directly to our site. There's a loyalty thing. Why? Now, why? Because it's easier, because we know who they are. We already have established certain things that they like and are able to provide them with that. That's great.

Starting point is 02:02:29 The thing in the future, though, with the ability of memory of LLMs to remember what your preferences are over time, that is obviously a powerful thing. Now, we are doing that within ourselves, creating our own ability to make sure, your example, I want a flat bed. I only like to take the flight at night. All sorts of those things. Those are things that we are putting in because what we really want is using technology to replace what you just said, that executive assistance who knows everything about you, who loves to make sure they do exactly what you want. And you don't have to ask him or her how to do it. They know how to do it. That's what we are building, but even more so. Because

Starting point is 02:03:11 your EA should know, but may not know, for example, that, oh, I forgot I got to stop by and buy a president because I'm going to visit my, you know, friend in France. May not know that, but we want to have it so much so that we know so much about you. We know that. We know that. We know that's going to take a 10-minute delay. And, oops, you may not make that flight because of the delay on the highway. So we're going to switch all this stuff around for you, suggest, should we do this?

Starting point is 02:03:40 because it looks like you're not going to make it. So then you can get on a flight, you don't miss the flight. And then because it's a new flight, we automatically are changing the car pickup that you have. And we're changing because now your dinner reservation is going to be later. We're changing that too. And if there is no availability at that restaurant, because we've opened table,

Starting point is 02:04:01 we're looking for a restaurant that's very similar to it right near it, and we're going to put a new reservation for you and your friend there. And in addition, because we know you're going to be incredibly, tired and you're going to be all upset. What we're going to do is get you a special favor from the hotel. So when you show up at the hotel, you got your favorite bottle of wine. And all these things can be done. The technology is there. We just have to stitch it together. That's the hard part. How are you processing the rise of voice agents? I get really excited about, you know, there's so many moments still, even with the internet, where you, if you're traveling, you end up having to,

Starting point is 02:04:39 like, call a hotel or talk to somebody in person, never really want to do that, right? It's just like, give me the information, et cetera. But it feels like we're moving to a world where eventually it could just be agent to agent directly, no voice, but it feels like there's a middle ground where you have agent to human or voice agent to voice agent, and they're just having a conversation. Even voice agent to like legacy phone tree, which is all recordings, but it's a deterministic system. And just having an agent be able to run through that, it speeds things up. Well, one of the wonderful things about right now that's already, we're already doing it.

Starting point is 02:05:18 And other people are doing it too, is using Gen. I to really speed up and make that customer service issue go away. So that's something that's really powerful. And it is the idea that you don't want to spend time talking to somebody. You certainly don't want to be put on hold. You just want to solve the problem. And what we've been able to do with some of our vendors, some of the things we do internally, is create a much better thing.

Starting point is 02:05:42 When you need customer service, you can solve it instantly almost. That's great. Creates a greater loyalty because I like using booking.com because I don't have to wait. It fixes it right away. That is a really powerful thing. But I agree with you. It's going to be a commodity. Everybody's going to be doing that.

Starting point is 02:06:01 what's the key to a great celebrity partnership hiring spokesburn yeah the great thing is that it ends up with more business than what you pay them yeah there we go what are the keys to success what would you recommend we've been we noticed we were watching the xbox launch at cES and bill gates is standing on stage and he's next to dwayne the rock johnson and he refers to him just as rock it's very funny it's it in funny ways, but it's cool, it's interesting. Obviously, everyone knows the price line negotiator. But what's the key to success? What would you recommend?

Starting point is 02:06:40 When is the right time to bring in a celebrity? Do you have a mental model for this? Or have you just delegated it to someone else on your team? Like, how do you think that's? Yeah, that's one of the important things is knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know and making sure that the person you're spending a lot of money to be the chief marketing officer that that person knows. If they don't, you had to get a different one.

Starting point is 02:06:59 And that's why you're paying the money that they're paying the money. But here's the truth is this is an old saying. It's uncertain who really said it first. And half of your brand marketing is wasted. You just don't know which half is a problem. And that's the thing. And by the way, I love it when you hit it and it goes out of the park, goes viral like you just mentioned. I know you've mentioned that one before about Bill and the Rock. But here's the thing is you can't predict those things. Sometimes you just hit that lightning in a bottle. A lot of the time, it's just wasted money. Yeah. What's your workout routine? You're looking absolutely jack. I got to ask. Well, I'll be perfectly honest.

Starting point is 02:07:37 I do work out every day. If I'm home, not traveling, half the time I'm away from my home. And, you know, there are a lot of gyms in Europe that don't have a lot of hotels that don't have gyms. So you're doing it in the hotel room, you know, small hotel room and stuff. I always bring some bands so I can get something done. There you go. But I tell you, it's so important because. You know, one of the things when you're doing all,

Starting point is 02:08:01 every single person right now in the tech world, we're all working incredibly hard. And to stay healthy, it's really important to work out. What do you, have you ever, we've joked on the show before we get frustrated at gyms having a dumbbell, a weight limit. We think it's because of the insurance, but most gyms, the weights, the dumbbells stop at 40 pounds, 50 pounds. They don't allow barbells. I think that could be a booking.com features. I could be a filter.

Starting point is 02:08:28 I want hotels. Yeah. So first of all, you guys are big guys. Okay? Yeah. Let's face it, you know, 6-8 and 6-1. I mean, you're tall people. You're big people, okay?

Starting point is 02:08:38 Normal-sized people, don't worry about this quite as much, okay? I know, but you have a small but, you know, very passionate audience. Yes, yes. Look, you know the answer to this, by the way. It's not the amount of weight. You can do more reps. You get the same impact. There you go.

Starting point is 02:08:56 Less weights more. More reps, you'd be fine. I love it. Sometimes you just want to stack a couple 45s on the bar and move a big number. How are you? No, no, wait, wait. This is important, guys. You guys are young guys, you know, young 30s, late 20s.

Starting point is 02:09:12 You can do that stuff. I'm 63 years old. Okay. I know, but you look 50, so that's why I asked. Yeah, yeah. Book recommendations. What's on the shelf behind you? What would you give to somebody the next generation?

Starting point is 02:09:26 What do you think is worth reading? Oh, God, there's so many things. There's not enough time to read everything. I'm giving them some instead of reading. Here's the piece of advice I give all the time. And I was actually a classroom situation yesterday, a guest lecturing something. And what I really like to get across is the idea of prioritization and self-discipline. You know, there's a book out.

Starting point is 02:09:49 You don't have to read it. It's called 4,000 weeks. It's kind of like the average time you have a lifetime. Okay? You get the choice how you want to spend it. a lot of that. Make sure it's on the things that matter and things are important to you. And I see too many people wasting their time. I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to dedicate social media or any of my partners or anything. But I'll tell you, a lot of people

Starting point is 02:10:11 are wasting a lot of their time doing stuff that it has no impact in their life. And later on, they may regret not having used that time more efficiently and more effectively. That's possible. That's one outcome. But it's also possible that I'm on my deathbed being Like I wish I watched a few more Instagram reels. I wish I scrolled TikTok just for a couple more minutes. No, I think I think what you're saying, there's a very real scenario in the future where people, you know, are towards the end of their life. And they're just looking at their lifetime screen time on their iPhone just saying like, don't do this. Don't do this.

Starting point is 02:10:50 One more, one more serious question. How are you guys thinking about the live events category broadly? There's a lot of people talking about excited about live events specifically because they feel insulated from. Well, that, but also insulated from AI. Yeah. No, look, obviously there's a lot of truth to that that people really are really enjoying those live event things. Now, for us in the travel business, there was a lot of talk when you had the Taylor Swift, Effective was called, where she'd be going, doing a cut. and there would be an increase in travel to that location,

Starting point is 02:11:27 and then all the local economy would build up a little bit on that. But for us, because we're so global, and all that's doing is transferring what would be the normal amount of travel to that location. For us, we're indifferent. So, for example, we have this whole thing about World Cup, and, you know, it's a partnership between the U.S. and Canada and Mexico and stuff. And a lot of people are really hoping it's going to build some of the people coming to the

Starting point is 02:11:53 U.S. for travel and how much is that going to help our business? And be perfectly honest with you, I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference because all it means that the people do choose to come to watch World Cup and come to the States for that. That's a trip they were going to take anyway. They haven't come to the stage. We would have gotten that business anyway. Now, it's good for the cities that have the actual games. They'll get the benefit. But us as a company, I don't think there's a huge difference. One of the challenges of scale. You're like, we are the market. We're just shifting pieces around. I have one last question.

Starting point is 02:12:23 That's right. We'll let you go. You travel a lot. You run a travel company. What's the secret to avoiding jet lag? And just keep doing it. And then you'll be in normal state all the time. You'll never stop moving.

Starting point is 02:12:38 This is good. I like that. Just don't stop. That's essentially just mad up. Just suck it up and just disregard. Just ignore it. I love that. That's the best advice I've heard.

Starting point is 02:12:48 People will tell you all sorts of take your shoes off, do this, do that. I like that one. That's great. No, no, it's ridiculous, okay? And I've never felt jet lag per se. This is breaking. We need to put this on a headline, breaking. It doesn't exist.

Starting point is 02:13:04 It's just a figment of your imagination. Yeah. No, it's not the imagination. It's going from JFK to Amsterdam, okay? It's a six and a half hour flight. You're going to, at best, because you've got to wait to take all the, and then they wake you up when you're landing. Maybe you'll get four hours good.

Starting point is 02:13:20 Maybe. You're going to be tired. Is that chill leg? You got four hours sleep. That's why you're tired. Yeah, there we go. Makes sense. Well, hopefully the rockets can get fast enough that when we're booking,

Starting point is 02:13:33 we're booking a hotel on the moon on booking.com, it'll just be, it'll see like we just, you know, teleported. Well, thank you so much. This is super fun. Come back on again soon. Really enjoyed it. Have a good, much. Cheers.

Starting point is 02:13:46 Goodbye. Do you want to change the world? Go to the New York Stock Exchange. And raise capital. Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Just do it. Just do it. No more excuses. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:13:57 It's our number one piece of advice this year to anyone who asked. What advice would you give me? That's going to be our advice for our next guest. Just raise money at the New York Stock Exchange. Hey, next round, J.D. Do it in the New York Stock Exchange. Just raise capital. Do a little road show.

Starting point is 02:14:12 Just do it. Stop making excuses. Yeah. Really, just stop making excuses. JD here. He is the co-founder of With coverage, an absolute dog. Absolutely don't. We got some breaking news from him.

Starting point is 02:14:25 J.D., how are you doing? Good to see you. He's back. Good to see you guys. Welcome. Back to the show. Glenn has energy for 60 whatever. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 02:14:33 That's how I was like, I need to know this guy's workout routine. Everything. He's like jetlight doesn't exist. He's also workout every day. There's a couple of these corporate athletes, Strauss Zelnick, the CEO of Take 2, maker of GTA, is absolutely diced.

Starting point is 02:14:47 He's in his 60s. He's on the cover of men's fitness every once in a while. There's a couple of people that figure out how to just keep that. motor going. I'm a big believer in the 65 to 95 era of a business person's career. Warren Buffett came mostly. Everything everything before that was a warm up. Everything else is a warm up. Sixty-five is where the real game starts. That's where the compounding begins. But you're much younger than 65, but you have some breaking news for us. Give it to us. It's all peptides. You wouldn't know. Okay. I guess that's the

Starting point is 02:15:17 news. But no, tell us about the business. Tell us what's going on in your world. Yeah. So, We are arguably in the most boring of the enterprise businesses you could possibly be in. I think we're not boring to us. Not boring to us. That's why we're here every day. That's why we have a gong. And I know we're going to ring it. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:15:37 So we run insurance. We're modernizing insurance brokerage. Basically, we replaced the traditional insurance broker with a ramp for risk management. Up, wrong side. There's a there we go. There we go. And we just raised $42 million series B. from founder

Starting point is 02:15:53 Mill Great stuff. Can't even get a word in or just having too much fun. Head him with the flashband. That wasn't very good to be able to that. Watch out,

Starting point is 02:16:08 JD. Watch out. We got to join them with the flash thing. Anyways, once you get your bearings, you can and continue.

Starting point is 02:16:24 Who did the deal? It's been awesome. I'm keeping back up with Keith Rubei, who is my co-founder at Open Door, and we brought on Sequoia as a new investor. It's amazing. The PayPal Mafia coming together. You're a made man.

Starting point is 02:16:37 Yeah, you know, it's, I think it's the first time Keith and Rulov have co-led a deal together. So it's the first time I've co-led something since PayPal. Yeah. You're a wise guy. Getting the band back together. That's fantastic.

Starting point is 02:16:53 Well, walk me through $42 million series B. What does that actually mean? Because insurance, like, at some point you have to have reserves. There's, is there, like, are you acting as an intermediary? And there's a different financial institution that's dealing with the actual, the capital that goes towards that. Is this capital going towards the operations, the hiring, building of the product? Or is it actually, like, if there's a insurance claim, you're paying it out of this $42 million? How does that all work?

Starting point is 02:17:24 So what's cool about our business is everyone else in the industry gets paid more, the more money that you spend on insurance, right? They're brokers. We don't bear risk. We're just helping you be placed with the right insurance carriers. And so what we've done, which is actually like shockingly innovative and say, hey, instead of charging you based on how much you spend, we're going to charge you based on how complex you are and how much, you know,

Starting point is 02:17:49 servicing you need and how much, you know, product you need. And so we replace it with a flat fee and then say, hey, we're going to net out all the commissions from your policies. You're not going to pay commission as much as legally possible. And it's just one fee for us for service. And what that does is it aligns incentives. And as a result, you know, over 700 companies now have moved over from, you know, GoPuff and AIDS Sleep to, you know, chomps, bambas, tons of these incredible businesses. I thought you were saying, when you first said that I was like, wait, GoPuff had a enterprise insurance. product.

Starting point is 02:18:24 No, no, no. So we don't do the insurance. Yeah, so almost like asset light, I don't know exactly the term, but more of media platform technology company. But at the same time, I feel like I've heard so many amazing stories about it's

Starting point is 02:18:40 really hard, but once you get the insurance business actually up and running, you wind up with Berkshire Hathaway or what's happening with Apollo. Like, you just have this float and this cash machine that can go towards other things. Is that enticing to you, even if it's going to happen when you're in your 65 to 95-year-old run? Is that something that might happen decades from now? Or is that just like never in the picture because it's

Starting point is 02:19:03 fundamentally incompatible with what you're doing? I think you have to start with your customer, right? Like when you go from like the like, oh, wow, that's really enticing, you start like twisting upside down to find a way to make a bad business decision. Sure. And this is kind of what I think some of our earlier competitors did in the last round of insured tax, is they said, well, that looks really nice, let's go after that. And then they were fundamentally mislined with their customers. Our job is never to, our job is to get you the cheapest insurance possible for the best coverage, right? As soon as you start selling our own book, there's no way for us to be able to do that job.

Starting point is 02:19:39 And so we don't do reserves. The $42 million we've raised is for product development and sales and growth. Unfortunately, we haven't found a way to spend money yet as a company. We even touched a penny of our series A when we raised this. It was kind of more to say, yeah, we were profitable last year, which is crazy. Wow. But I'm confident we will solve that problem this year. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:20:01 How does this actual sales cycle work? People are, you know, signing up with, you know, for a specific insurance plan. And then there's like, you know, it's cyclical. Like, how does that motion working for you guys? Yeah. So usually it starts with an introduction or like, you know, someone saying, hey, you got to talk to these guys. They're awesome. And our first conversation is they're already on board on the product.

Starting point is 02:20:27 It's get them on. We'll show them exactly how it works. Instead of like going through PDFs and everything else, you see everything in one place. And we're going to do this very strong, like in detail risk analysis saying top to bottom, here's your company. Here's like the opportunity for someone to get hurt and slipping and falling in your restaurant. Here's what happens when someone in your manufacturing facility, you know, might get in or if a product injure as a customer, all the different cases, you might need a product recall.

Starting point is 02:20:52 And running through those scenarios and saying this isn't is where you are currently covered and not covered and how we can fix it. And also here's how you benchmark against everyone else just like you. So instead of working with that sort of generalist insurance broker, we bring on this specialized team almost like the Navy seals of product recall and say, here's exactly what you need to do to deal with this when it happens. And for us, risk management doesn't end with insurance products. It goes through like, what do you actually do when that happens?

Starting point is 02:21:20 What's your playbook for dealing with a product recall? Who, what lawyers do you need to talk to? How do you actually, like, file this with, you know, the relevant regulatory bodies? There's a whole bunch of stuff. And we do this for customers in kind of every single, uh, industry that we work with, from, you know, aerospace and defense to health care, to construction, to consumer brands. How do you think, uh, is insurance of playing a factor in like these legal, cases with the big AI labs I saw Anthropic paid a billion dollar fine for scraping some books.

Starting point is 02:21:54 And it's just something that if I'm underwriting Anthropic at Seed, it's like, how am I going to predict that they're going to scrape books that they shouldn't and this lawsuit's going to happen? It's going to be this huge settlement. And that feels like something that would be way out of coverage, but are people even thinking about ensuring for these entirely new dynamics that can happen only in the AIA? Absolutely. And there's really cool new carriers who are kind of stepping in. And we've seen whenever there's a new innovation in kind of business, some new insurance company that becomes a giant leader is the first one to come in and step in and say, hey, I'm willing to take a understand,

Starting point is 02:22:32 like really understand this and take a bat. Interesting. And so coalition did this with cyber insurance. It's now a five plus billion dollar company where no one else really understood what cyber insurance meant. Yeah. They came into that. And now they're doing, you know, really well across G&O and a number of their spaces. Same thing with crypto. That's a lot. been more kind of broadly adopted, but you know, it sure is like, well, been amazing there. Oh, interesting. And in that, in, walk me through the, that cyber insurance example, like, do they have to raise money? Are they raising debt? Like, how do you, if you weren't doing what you're doing and you were just building a pool of capital to ensure companies directly,

Starting point is 02:23:07 what does the, what does the build out of a company like that actually look like? I've never really told it. Yeah, you literally need to raise tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of equity. And then it's like, yeah, to collateralize the issue and then partner with, you start by partnering with existing insurance companies if you can. But if they don't understand it and unwilling to underwrite it, you have to just raise huge pools of capital. Wow. I mean, this is the oldest business of all time. It's basically Lloyd's of London is a syndicate of people who were just pooling capital for these literally pooling capital for risk for ships. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:23:44 Yeah. Traces all the way back to the Don Adventure, the whaling and whatnot. Fascinating, fascinating. Well, congratulations. You get these crazy things in insurance, too, where, like, the words that are used don't make any sense. You're like, why would trucking be called Marine? Oh.

Starting point is 02:23:58 It's because you're shipping, you're literally shipping things, you know, on ships over water. And they just adapted it. Wait, so marine insurance refers to trucking, like physically. Yeah, like, it's called inland, inland marine. Inland Marine. Interesting. Yeah. Wow, wow.

Starting point is 02:24:12 What an awesome industry. Well, congratulations on all the progress. Where are you guys seeing the benefits from AI in the business, not on the product side, outside of coding? I think what's really cool is we can measure this stuff right. And I think last year I would have said, oh, we get rid of data entry, we get rid of whatever. Now I can say each person in our team is writing three times as many emails today as they were six months ago. Wow. Like we've scaled the business.

Starting point is 02:24:45 We're breaking the scaling laws of financial services through AI. We're pulling in all the context and it's becoming much less human reliant on the day-to-day operation of the business. So the people are actually just focusing on like high-end problem solving strategy, the things that, you know, people are good at. But I have no idea how sort of the, you know, entry-level kind of paper-pushing jobs are going to keep doing this because we just don't need them. Interesting. Where are you building the business? So the company is based in New York. I'm the odd man out in Austin.

Starting point is 02:25:16 And I think in San Francisco, if you're building a model company, you've got to be an SSF. If you're building applied AI in financial services, it's just much easier to do that in New York. Like, the people actually understand what that means. And so for us, we don't sell software, right? Like we're building a competitor to Marrish Aon locked in these kind of 50 to $100 billion brokers. and we're coming in and saying, look, we can't sell software to you. You can't buy software.

Starting point is 02:25:47 You have no idea how to even deploy this. You have like 10 different factions in your order to do this. If we were to do that, we would do that maybe in San Francisco. In New York, you get to go head to head and say, look, I'm just going to go after your clients

Starting point is 02:25:57 and we're just going to do your job better. We're going to lunch. Yeah. I see your point. I'd like a bite. Your lunch is for Martinez. Yes. That's amazing.

Starting point is 02:26:07 Well, thank you so much for stopping by and giving us the news. It just makes so much sense going in. and, you know, talking with coverage and having them not just be incentivized for you to spend the most amount of money, but to get the best plan and actually get the most out of it is just, I love the alignment. It's fantastic. I'm waiting for you guys to do your first, like, events so I can show you. You know, we'll cover all your, like, awesome giant conferences with the fireworks and stuff.

Starting point is 02:26:34 You're inevitably going to learn there. Yes, if I catch on fire. We need, we're trying to get an intern catches up fire from a fog machine. We want like a CO2 cannons in here. That could be very risky. And so I don't think we're insured for CO2. We're not doing that yet. Good insurance.

Starting point is 02:26:50 So we'll talk. I actually own two industrial snow machines. If you ever need to rent one, just leave it out. Whoa. We needed that during Christmas. Where were you when we were dressed up in Santa Claus? We had the fake snow going over the show. But next year, real snow for sure.

Starting point is 02:27:05 Real snow. I'm shipping it out. Thank you so much. Thank you. Great to see, J. We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Let's kick it over to this video by Storm Crew on YouTube.

Starting point is 02:27:17 The boss asked me to take on 10 robots by myself. An individual has assembled a set of 10 unitary or humanoid robots, got in the boxing ring and fought them, and the results are very, very interesting. We'll have to sort of click through a little bit of this video. But he fights. incremental amounts of Robots. We've been wanting somebody to do this forever

Starting point is 02:27:45 I've wanted to do this personally. I want to fight the humanoids Look at this so it's one-on-one and it's not too bad he can just hold it off He's just he's just holding can't do anything now keep in mind this is the unit tree. I believe it's the G1 The the cheaper smaller version now he's one on three Let's see what happens He's kick they're kicking. Oh, he does the pole rush. That's a I had not thought of that strategy Oh, he's pushing them over and with these small unitary Guys once you get them down they can get up but they're pretty easy to pin

Starting point is 02:28:14 He starts he starts fighting five this is one on five now He needs a flash bang and he is it they are hitting him. They are hitting him he's taking some blows Oh he knocks one down that's a good hit their movement looks surprised oh he picks it up oh we're going w-dhue mode. Okay he picks it up and slams it down oh he gets back up he's gonna throw it They really they need bigger robots because it looks like he's just bullying when they when they pop up that is that is a scary animation Okay, okay. Okay. Okay.

Starting point is 02:28:42 Oh my God. Slammed onto the ground. Yeah, slammed onto the ground. Well, he finally, he's fighting like six or seven here. They're really closing in at this point. This is where it starts to get intimidating. Gets a little hairy. I feel like seven, you know, you can't keep your eyes on all of them at the same time.

Starting point is 02:29:00 But if you use them against each other, yeah, creating the pile, the pile method, that's what you want to go for. You want to create a heap of, of, you know-binoid robots. This is the only benchmark. The Terminator benchmark. Terminator Bench. This is the only benchmark I really care about. Who wins? AI or humans?

Starting point is 02:29:15 But then he adds the G2, which is the newer Unitary robot. And this one is a little bit more athletic. And things start to get a little bit riskier. Do we think they're teleoperated? I imagine all of this is teleoperated. This seems like some sort of ad integration.

Starting point is 02:29:31 Nice. Some AI. We're ad appreciators. I don't know what's going on. Let's skip to the final bit. We can skip ahead. I think it starts at 208 maybe. We can see.

Starting point is 02:29:43 Robot 10x. That was a clean. Yeah, so he's boxing the big guy and he hits, yeah. It's pretty, he gets knocked on the ground. It's not looking good for humanity. Very, very rough. If we skip to... I think he's getting a little fatigued.

Starting point is 02:29:59 Oh, yeah, he is. He's running out of gas. It's tiring. I think he... I think the conclusion of this... Did you see that headbut? Did you see the headbut from a scene of position? That looks very dangerous.

Starting point is 02:30:10 I think the conclusion of this video is that he loses. Who knows how scripted this is? It's a lot of fun. Yeah, a lot of cuts. A lot of cuts. You know, it's mostly entertainment, but it's good entertainment. Challenge yourself to fight robots with difficulty levels ranging from one to ten robots. See how many you can ultimately.

Starting point is 02:30:27 That could be a good sort of, you know, those VR centers where you go and do VR in person? You could go and do this. And your local, put that next to your CrossFit gym. Anyway, we have our... We have our Lambda Lightning Round. Yes, the Lambda Lightning. Nick from Sandstone is the co-founder and CEO. He's in the Restream waiting room.

Starting point is 02:30:46 Get that gong ready. And now he's in the TBPN Ultru now. Nick, how are you doing? What's happening? Let's get the gong going. How much did you raise? What's going on? We're announcing our $10 million seed round. There you go.

Starting point is 02:31:02 A humble, a humble mango seed. We love to see it. Real question. 10. You versus 10 humanoid robots, do you think you could beat them up? I don't think so. Okay. But I think we all need those robots in our life.

Starting point is 02:31:21 We're going to get them in the office as soon as we can. And I think that's your first round to come work at Sandstone, is you actually have to fight off the robots to get into the office. There you go. That's a good qualifier. You're building AI for in-house legal teams. I imagine if the humanoid robots get deployed and they start harassing people. The in-house legal teams will be full-upiling robots.

Starting point is 02:31:45 It's a net-positive farm market. It's a huge for our market. But this is something we've actually been excited about. We've been wondering where legal AI will land. There's obviously companies they're selling to large firms. You can do some stuff in the apps by yourself, but that feels a little bit risky. Sometimes the chat apps will push back on you. hey, I'm not a lawyer. I don't want to give you this type of advice.

Starting point is 02:32:08 And maybe you don't want to upload your employment agreement to an app that will ultimately train on it and maybe leak your information at some point. So how are you thinking about building the product, the go-to-market, the value prop in a world where the other platforms exist and there are some DIY options? Yeah, I mean, first of all, thanks for having me, guys. It's great to be here. I think the way that we've thought about approaching the in-house market is really from sort of two pain points that we saw,

Starting point is 02:32:38 and I saw this when I was serving legal teams at McKinsey and as an engineer, in-house teams have a ton of requests that come in from the business, from external users. They're basically getting bombarded with emails and slacks and teams messages, right? And they don't have a single platform in the same way that we have linear or Jira,

Starting point is 02:32:56 if you were an engineer 10 years ago, to manage your work and who's doing what. And so that's not even yet an AI problem, but rather a data problem. And so that was the first thing that we wanted to solve, which was like, can we sit across all these systems that lawyers have to deal with and pull in all the requests into one place

Starting point is 02:33:13 so that when the AI goes to redline the agreement or answer the question or draft the contract, it already has context on the entire thread that you're working on as well as all your other business systems. So one of the issues with, you know, whether it's Claude or ChatGBT, GBT, or even some of the legal solutions out there is, you know, I open a contract and I ask for it to be a review,

Starting point is 02:33:34 But if it's a sales agreement, I need to know, like, you know, have we worked with this company before? Yep. Is it high ACV? How does it compare to our other deals in Salesforce? Does the seller have a good relationship, right? These kinds of things are like what the lawyer actually goes and, like, they spend admin time doing to go gather that information. We want to be the context layer that pulls that all in. So when you go open that picket in your system in Sandstone, which has the sales agreement, all that context is there and ready for you.

Starting point is 02:34:01 So how do you pull in all that data? Are you a big, like, Zapier customer and you're integrating with everything on day one? Are you writing MCP integrations, API integrations? Is it client by client, and it's more high touch? Because you're going with really big companies as starting customers, and you go to their in-house legal team, and if they're using some custom CRM, you'll build a custom CRM integration because it's important to them.

Starting point is 02:34:27 How do you go down the stack of integrations to get that full context? Yeah. So mostly API integrations, I think there's some MCP that we're working with. The way that we think about it is being pretty opinionated about what data from your CRM or your ERP is important for legal workflows. And so we're able to, you know, on day one, have the team come in, set up an integration and then essentially tell us what are the, you know, according to these critical fields that we need, where can we find them in your system, right? Salesforce systems are very complex. And so we ask them, hey, here's, you know, the 10 things that we're going to. a need. Where do these live within your Salesforce so that we can much more easily query that going

Starting point is 02:35:06 forward? This has allowed us to, you know, even for some, you know, five to 10 person legal teams, we can onboard them within a week with multiple integrations. And I think one of the things that's important is like, this isn't going to be an overnight problem, right? No legal team's going to solve their data issue in one night. But if you can integrate even Google Drive and maybe your contract management tool and Slack, and that's 50 to 60 percent of your data, that's going to change your ability to answer questions and get legal work done by, you know, several fold. And then we can continue to integrate over time. What are, what's the mindset of your buyers? I think, you know, if you're, if you're Harvey or one of these other legal AI players and you're selling into a law

Starting point is 02:35:46 firm, they're doing this dance right now where they're like, we're going to make you way more efficient, but we're all, you know, there's this kind of the elephant in the room is like, okay, is this going to impact billables? But if I'm an in-house legal team, you know, you're, you know, that's, team, that's not really on my mind. I just want to deliver great work and protect the company and keep the company compliant across a bunch of different dimensions. I imagine there could be like more pull, more excitement, more kind of urgency to adopt than maybe some big law firm that's like, hey, we've done it this way for a long time and our business is doing great right now. We don't need too much AI.

Starting point is 02:36:25 Yeah. Before I started Sandstone, most of my work was at McKinsey helping big law firms think about AI and tech strategy. And we would actually go out and deploy AI solutions for some of these big firms. And I think the hardest thing was you have to go to every partner in every practice area as if it's its own business and kind of sell a one-off solution to them and get them on board with the fact that, hey, this might have some implications on your billable hour model going forward. Within house, it's completely different, right? When they see AI, solutions that can take a lot of the admin work off their plate. Generally, the GC thinks, hey, now my team can go focus on being in more of the business strategy conversations and become more proactive around potential risks and issues with our company rather than reactive and trying to play catch up on all the requests that we have coming in. I think this is like one of the bigger paradox. Paradoxes within legal and within AI more broadly is like as legal teams get more efficient

Starting point is 02:37:22 on the admin side and collecting the context. which we're working on, they're going to be able to be in more business discussions, protect the company for more risk, but also have more work ultimately. And so a lot of our legal teams, I anticipate they'll continue to grow as they adopt more AI, but they'll just do it in a more effective way for the business. And we'll see a world where, like, you know, the top law firms in the future need to be AI-native and AI-enabled, but I think the top legal teams in the future and even the top companies will have to have these AI-native legal teams.

Starting point is 02:37:51 Similar to how, you know, Ramp, I think if you're using Ramp as a smaller company, and your finance team is using it, you're probably spending a little bit less on, you know, services that you typically might have on the financial and accounting side. And it's also helping your business move faster. I think historically we didn't see that in finance. You see the same in HR with Workday. And so I think legal will get there over time. How's growth been? Growth has been great. So we started working on this, you know, five months ago. We've got, dozens of companies using it today. We got we got dozens. of companies using it today, you know, a mix of earlier, smaller in-house teams all the way up to

Starting point is 02:38:29 Fortune 500s. Let's go. Let's go. Let's give it up for the Fortune 500. For sure. Our team is, you know, a team of 15 engineers and lawyers in New York and Brooklyn. One of our mantras is that everyone ships. So we have four lawyers on our team.

Starting point is 02:38:48 Every single one of them codes. Three of them are actual full-time engineers. My co-founder was a lawyer. He became an engineer. We have a general counsel who became a software engineer for five years, and they're shipping every day. And so that's sort of how we want to build this. We want to build this like a tech company would build today, and everyone has some sort

Starting point is 02:39:08 of a legal background or engineering background. And whether you have that from your experience or it's something that you've learned by being at Sandstone. Well, congratulations on the round. Congratulations on the progress. Yeah, the company just makes so much fun. Such a short about a time. Congratulations.

Starting point is 02:39:23 Fantastic. Yeah, very, very cool. sure I'm sure you'll be back on this quarter. That's my, that's my bet. That's my bet. Great, great to meet you and good luck out there. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks. Good rest of your day. Goodbye. Up next, we have Rob Slaughter of Defense Unicorns. You've got to check this website out. It's fantastic. Intense name, very cute for himself, very cute name for his business. And then intense business, because he's getting software to warfighters. He's in the Restream waiting room.

Starting point is 02:39:55 Let's bring him in to the TBPN Ultrodome. How are you doing, Rob? Welcome to the show. Look at that. Look at that. Friendly unicorn. Friendly unicorn. Please, introduce yourself.

Starting point is 02:40:06 Introduce the company. Tell us what you're building and how it's going. Yeah, Rob Slaughter, you know, spent my career in the military. I spent about 13 years active duty. Got out with some co-founders about five years ago. I like to joke around that I spent the first half in my career struggling with soft in the back half of my career trying to solve the software delivery challenges. It started this company because, you know, we saw a real huge problem.

Starting point is 02:40:31 You know, it's hard to tell because most of the ecosystem, most of the industry, especially on the defense or especially on the tech side, doesn't have a ton of exposure to defense. You obviously read the big headlines, so you get the big news. Everybody understands we have the best military in the world. You know, the recent operation in South America obviously highlights this stuff. But there's real significant tech challenges that, you know, as a company, we really strive to solve. So we're super excited to talk about the Series B and, you know, announce a lot of the good stuff. How much did you raise?

Starting point is 02:41:05 How much? We have officially raised 136. So it's quite, you know, it's fantastic. You know, we're obviously excited to get back to building. Obviously, love what we do. And you're a unicorn now, which is, yeah. amazing because we got to we got to we got to a capital allocator acknowledgement Bain capital is is the leading the round it feels like if you put unicorn in the name of

Starting point is 02:41:34 your startup you're really asking for you like you're you're calling your shot so aggressively that everyone's going to be like oh they they'll never do it and you did it so congratulations I do I do wonder if there was ever you know during the the deal process they were like well we want to do nine yeah about nine nine nine you're like I'm sorry I can't Possibly who will destroy the bread. Where does the name come from? Yeah, so a couple things. First and foremost, we hire unicorns.

Starting point is 02:42:04 And so it's hard to find those people that are mission focused, you know, typically have clearances. They typically have like clearances. They're based in the U.S. Sure. That's the other things. So one of the biggest things is that we hire defense unicorns. The other thing is if we're successful as a company,

Starting point is 02:42:22 Yeah. One of the biggest things we'd like to see in the ecosystem is like it's not going to be just, you know, one, 10, 20 defense unicorns in the ecosystem. There's actually going to be hundreds or thousands. So just like, you know, quick back of the envelope numbers, you know, for folks, you know, you look at somebody like Nvidia and they do, you know, 200 billion-ish a year revenue. You know, you have a Department of War that spends a trillion a year. That's 5x that. And, you know, as you guys mentioned earlier on the show, you know, Trump's talking about increasing. that to 1.5 trillion. And so when you think about this from like a market opportunity perspective, what you actually find out is that there's most likely probably several, you know, multi-trillion dollar companies. And then when you cascade that down, what you're actually going to find is that there's not just dozens, but hundreds of defense unicorns that should be entering the ecosystem. Okay. Very cool. And I agree. I think it would be positive for the ecosystem. how do you guys work with other software companies, like break down the platform for us and how everything actually works?

Starting point is 02:43:32 Yeah, so first talk about the problem. One of the biggest issues is a combination of three things. One, these are mostly air gap systems. And to define an air gap, air gap is either fully disconnected, semi-disconected, or extremely high firewall. So think about like security policy settings to where things like GitHub are inaccessible. The next issue is like the super high cybersecurity standards and a lot of the accreditation standards that the government expects. And then the third thing is that there's actually a huge skill gap, delta between what you see on industry expectations and what you typically see in like military spaces, not just the defense industrial base, but a lot of times the people who are actually operating these systems are actually active duty. airmen, soldiers, sailors, and Marines.

Starting point is 02:44:21 And so a lot of the technologies that we work with are Kubernetes-based. And so to just say how this is really operating is you have people generally wearing a uniform that has to actually operate things that's incredibly complex. Their core day job is firing missiles and guns on target. Their primary day job is not IT operations. And so what we do as a company is we have an open source baseline called UDS. that allows people to integrate in an open source fashion. We have the ability to take those applications

Starting point is 02:44:53 and unclassified environments, classified environments, and really our bread and butter is extending those to actual edge weapon systems. So things, F-16s, F-22s, our largest customers, the Department of Navy, specifically the submarine community. And so really for us, it's about how do we have like a whole of nation approach? You know, if we're going to enter in a near-peer adversary

Starting point is 02:45:17 type of engagement. How do we actually, you know, have the ability to inject latest and greatest technology from anywhere around the country to some of these, you know, new weapon systems? Last question for me. I remember talking to Shams Sankar at Palantir, and he told this amazing anecdote about the early days of Palantir. They built a piece of software, put a bunch of dots on a map, right? He goes to deliver it, and the machine that they tried to install it on had like, you know, one megabyte of RAM or something. And so it just couldn't run the software. And I'm wondering, you know, you have this Panasonic tough book on your website. How do you think or how do you work or do you work with your customers to understand where products can be actually deployed?

Starting point is 02:46:03 Because once you're beyond the air gap, you're probably doing more things on device, on at the edge. What are the hardware constraints? I imagine that there's a ton in the age of AI. You can't just run Lama locally on some 10-year-old tough book. How are you working with clients on understanding hardware and how it will enable their software to be delivered? Yeah, you nailed the problem, which is in these military systems, if you want to do a software update, you effectively have to update the hardware. And that's why the hardware is so out of date is because for the new iterations of systems, they've struggled to integrate it. It hasn't worked successfully. So that latest and greatest program that was supposed to deliver, didn't deliver, so you're stuck with the legacy system.

Starting point is 02:46:48 Now, that happens two or three times, and before you know it, people are still stuck on, you know, Windows 95, you know, to take your, you know, true story, you know, those types of things are super common. So, so how do we actually, you know, find success? How do we actually enable the warfighter? Well, if you actually make it easy enough to deliver, in many cases, you don't have to update the hardware. In your example, certainly you do. It's already gone too far. But a lot of cases, what we're doing is we're finding, you know, certain weapon systems, you know, they've had a hardware, you know, refresh, if you will, say a year or two, you know, go. It's not the latest and greatest.

Starting point is 02:47:22 But it can actually run way more software than what was available two years ago. Can you actually do a software update on that slightly older hardware to make it mission effective? And then you also nailed, you know, key fundamental point, which is, you know, these things, you know, modern AI is a memory hawk. Yeah. And if you're going to war with outdated hardware, which is the reality. and you're trying to get the latest and greatest AI, you actually have to have the ability to update the software on demand. So you might be flying a mission and saying,

Starting point is 02:47:52 hey, I need this specialized local AI model. And then the next day, you're running a new mission and you might actually need a different AI model. The way war is conducted today, that would actually be a full reset. That would be a whole new maintenance period, the jet or the Navy ship would actually go down. You know, it's not really viable.

Starting point is 02:48:12 With defense unicorns, you actually have that capability. That is good to hear. Well, congrats on all the progress. Thanks so much for coming on the show. I'll break it down for us. I love a business where it's so clear that you had to experience the problem as a team for a decade and make so much sense of just keep hiring veterans that have experienced the real pain,

Starting point is 02:48:34 not just heard about it on a podcast or something like that. So super, super exciting and really congratulations on all the progress. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah, great to meet you. Have a good rest of your week. We'll talk to you. Cheers. Goodbye.

Starting point is 02:48:49 Up next, we have the co-founder and CEO of Ben Shling calling in from the JPMorgan Health Care Conference. We are very excited to welcome Sagi to the show. Welcome to the show. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, guys. Thanks for hopping on the show. First, I mean, kick us off with an introduction on yourself and Ben Shling.

Starting point is 02:49:11 I think most people are familiar, but we'd love to get enough. update on the shape of the business today. And then I want to go into the JPMorgan Healthcare Conference as well. Sounds great. Yeah, I'm the co-founder and the CEO of Benchling. We make software that helps scientists discover and develop new medicines. We spent about 10 years helping bring science to the cloud. It was pretty much trapped on-premise and in spreadsheets before that. And then today we're very focused on bringing AI to scientists everywhere by putting models and simulation directly in the workflow of scientists and building agents that automate all the toil and drudgery that's that drug discovery is filled with yeah uh someone was pitching me

Starting point is 02:49:50 cursor for bio and i said that can happen because there's no vs code for bio and it's did you love open source or hate it like it's just it seems like it's just a a fact that if you can't fork something quickly uh how are you going to spin up and grow as quickly as cursor has grown Has that proven true? Do you feel like you're the cursor for bio and that your setup, the structure? They're the benchling for benchling. Yeah, really. I mean, I shouldn't even try.

Starting point is 02:50:19 I like that pitch. Yeah. But walk me through what you're actually building. Yeah. Yeah, I think AI in bio is kind of like, it's kind of like GPT without the chat. So GPT came out and like it didn't explode until someone put the right interface on it. That's how I feel a lot of AI in bio. you have these amazing new models and capabilities for doing different tasks.

Starting point is 02:50:42 But making a medicine is so hard and complex that putting it all together in the right interface and making it super easy for the scientists in the labs to actually use is a really difficult problem. And that's what we're focused on at Benchling. And what's the, we've seen in coding, which I think people are most familiar with, you know, auto-complete gets better and better. Then you get sort of the back and forth, the copy-paste. from the LLMs, then you get the fully agentic prompt systems, cloud code. And is there something similar happening where there's an auto-complete for bio before there's

Starting point is 02:51:19 an agent for bio? What is the shape of the interaction that the scientist is having with the various ways you can interact with AI models? I think there's even lower-hanging fruit than that. We have customers where they're using our AI agents to ingest all this data that's trapped in spreadsheets and PDFs and sharepoints that's, you know, been, you know, it's six, 10, 15 years old. The people who made the data of, like, long moved on, and they're able to understand what's been done before and sometimes not even rerun experience. We had a customer

Starting point is 02:51:53 who, you know, brought 10,000 different experiments into Benchling that previously hadn't been touched. And a scientist was about to run some studies that would have taken about eight months, and they realized that someone else had already done the work many years ago, and they were to cut a bunch of them out. And like, life science is just full of example. like that, that's going to help compress the time it takes to make drugs and get them to market. Where do you think... Yeah, where do you think AI is overhyped in life sciences, and where do you think it's underhyped? Oh, man. I think it's, I think it's, there's a lot of excitement. I don't want to say overhype,

Starting point is 02:52:28 there's a lot of excitement about these models that help you create a new hypothesis. And that's really important. But drug discovery is 9,999 steps after. after that, many of which are incredibly hard and full of toil. And there's a lot of opportunities, especially when you get to things that are regulated or in animals or, you know, closer to manufacturing to make huge differences in the lives of scientists ever to get medicines to patients faster. How do you think about speed of token generation? We were talking to the CEO of Cerebrus, and he was very optimistic about applied AI speeding

Starting point is 02:53:07 up in bio specifically because more and more of the questions that scientists are asking look like deep research reports, whereas consumers might just ask, oh, you know, what's the capital of, I don't know, Illinois, and it's a quick, you know, LLM, it just fills the next word in, it takes one token. But a lot of scientists might say, for every question that I'm asking throughout the day, every 15 minutes, I'm effectively firing off a deep research report that might take a half an hour, And so speeding that up makes sense. How are you feeling about the different options on the silicon side? What partnerships have you done?

Starting point is 02:53:43 How are you thinking about accelerating the actual workflows? Yeah, we've got partnerships with both Nvidia and Anthropic, which I can talk about in just a second. But I think life science is actually not even at the point where token speed is the rate limiter. Obviously, you know, in San Francisco, AI is everywhere. your billboards are selling you GPUs and whatever. But if you go to Boston, other life science hub, or I've spent time in Europe in the last couple months, I was just in Asia and December visiting biotech and pharma companies.

Starting point is 02:54:12 AI adoption's not going to just happen spontaneously in all these organizations. Most of these scientific organizations actually are just getting, like, co-pilots and whatnot turned on. There's a lot of legal, safety, regulatory, security concerns that they have. And scientists' workflows are so, so complicated. They're already jumping between a bunch of, of different tools with really complex data that AI is not necessarily purpose built for. And so there's a lot of like last mile work to do before token speed even becomes a problem.

Starting point is 02:54:41 And that's what we've been trying to focus on at Benchling. Is the decline of Boston as a biotech hub overstated? We read a piece by Wilmanitis declaring Boston dead almost. He was very dramatic about it. How are things going in Boston? Is it still a competitive place? There's been a number of different reports around hiring, maybe, you know, weakening and softening.

Starting point is 02:55:05 But what are you seeing in Boston? I think there's still a lot of, like, really good scientific talent in Boston, and they can come out to San Francisco to raise money if they need. They're just a plane flight away. I think maybe zooming out what you're probably hearing is, like, biotech went through a, like, it's a pretty good vibe right now at JPM, but biotech went through a really tough couple years. Like they, the biofarm industry went through, like, the dot-com bust equivalent for a few years,

Starting point is 02:55:31 you know. What was the driver of that? Because it feels like during COVID there was a lot of biotech energy and then through the GLP1 boom, we're seeing more. But is this CRISPR overhang? Like what is the foundational technology of the dot com? If the internet was the thing that ultimately caused the bubble of dot com. There were a lot of great new scientific technologies, but it takes a lot of time to make a

Starting point is 02:55:58 drug. It takes seven, ten years. The industry, how many drugs do you guys think get approved a year? Can you guess? Under hundreds? I don't know. Under 20? What is it? For the last 10 years, we've gotten about 50 new medicines approved per year. Just 50. And how much do you think the industry spends on R&D? Is it like $10 billion a year? The industry spends almost $200 billion worth on R&D.

Starting point is 02:56:25 And you get 50 new drugs a year. year and it takes 10 years to figure out if you're right. Okay, so like, and by the way, though, like drugs, drugs are amazing. Like, we want more drugs. And drugs get cheaper over time. They become generic. Hundreds of millions of people take statins and all kinds of other drugs that they don't even think about how cheap they are and how impactful they are. So we get to add 50 to our stockpile every single year of new life-changing medicines. We should want more of them, we should want them faster, we want them to be better. And I think because it takes so long, and it's such a difficult artisanal process.

Starting point is 02:57:02 Like I think everyone got excited with MRNA and COVID, and I think a lot of money went in. And I think science takes time to become durable and turn into businesses and have medicines get commercialized. And I think some people, a couple years after COVID, also got impatient. And there's other things to invest in.

Starting point is 02:57:19 And so the money kind of went back out. And so it was a really difficult couple years for the industry. And, you know, interest rates, geopolitical things. If there's any industry that doesn't like uncertainty, it's biotech. You know, you're underwriting something that's going to take 10 years to see the results of. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:57:34 How should people think about JPMorgan Healthcare, like the conference? Is it an opportunity to raise money? Is it an opportunity for companies that are thinking about going public? I know the financial profile of a lot of drug companies is very different than startups. At the same time, there's a lot of companies that are now taking a more traditional Silicon Valley path in growing their business and raising money. What's the purpose? Why do people go to JPMorgan healthcare? What are they get out of it?

Starting point is 02:58:02 It's actually really funny. A lot of people are here for JPM, but they don't actually go to JPM. It's like every conference kind of has their ratio of at the conference versus ecosystem around it. JPM might be the most lopsided where like 90% of people here are not going to the actual conference. It is a banker conference for CEOs and CFOs to raise money, but it's like this barometer for the industry.

Starting point is 02:58:23 And most people are actually here for all of the ecosystem around at all the events. Like, we're having an event at our HQ tonight. That's like an AI and BioPanel with, you know, Eli Lilly and isomorphic labs and pro-fluent and anthropic. But, you know, people are here to get customers, to fundraise, to see their friends, and to their pharma companies

Starting point is 02:58:41 that have alumni reunion parties here. And so it's like, it's just the gathering to kick the year off. And the mood is good, by the way. Like the XBI has been trading well. There's been a bunch of M&A in biotech, which has sent a bunch of money back to investors. I think some of the tariff and MFN

Starting point is 02:58:56 stuff has settled a little bit for now. Eli Lilly, as you said, becoming the first trillion dollar pharma company. I think that's raised everyone's ambitions a bunch and then, you know, yeah, there's a, there's options for AI to benchling next. Yeah, benchling next. It's easier now since, you know, it's already been done. The fast follower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, exactly. I'll have you back on when, when you hit the one T. But I'm so glad to hear things are going well. Thank you so much for stopping. Yeah, great to meet you on the show. We've been wanting to make this happen for a long time. Yeah, this is great.

Starting point is 02:59:26 Thanks for having me. You guys need more biotech on the show. We do, please. The TBPN for biotech. You're our new correspondent. You'll be our expert. So tell us the companies that we should have on. Yeah, we'd love that.

Starting point is 02:59:38 And yeah, enjoy this. All right. I'm here for a vibe check anytime you need it. Fantastic. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers. Goodbye. Well, we have a very special guest in the TBPN Ultram

Starting point is 02:59:51 live in person. We have Scott Nolan from General Matter. Welcome. How have you been? How was the holiday party? How was your new year? Is 2026 off to a good start? It's been great.

Starting point is 03:00:09 Yeah, thank you guys for having me on. Of course, of course. Just look at the headlines, you know? Yeah, it's long overdue, but I'm so glad we get to catch up. Take us back. We've talked many times, but take us back to the process of finding this category, finding this opportunity. I think most people will know that you're at a bit.

Starting point is 03:00:29 Founders Fund in an investing role for over a decade, I believe. But talk to me about the process. Overnight Success. You didn't hear it, but he just played the overnight success. Sound cute. But talk to me about the process of actually finding an opportunity, picking this one, and then making the move. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:00:50 And for people who aren't familiar with the general matter, with an American nuclear fuel company, enriching fuel here in the U.S. using U.S. tech. So the whole background was, you know, finding it overnight took about a decade. Yeah. And there was certainly no intention of starting anything. Really, this was in response to a huge market need. So like you said, you know, at Founder's for a decade meeting a wide range of advanced reactor companies. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:01:17 All of them had the same message, which was we have no, we have no fuel. We have no source of HALU. Sure. And we've got to depend on Russia and China for that fuel that we need. And so I said, why don't the U.S. fuel companies make that fuel? they said there aren't really any. You say depending on Russia and China, is it true that the HALU, the nuclear fuel that comes from Russia, is they actually take it out of a missile that's nuclear?

Starting point is 03:01:42 Does that happen? Or they take it out of a nuclear submarine? Where are they getting in Russia? Why do they happen? Why don't we? Yeah, not a wives tale, but they have their own enrichment capability in Russia. They do. They do.

Starting point is 03:01:54 Yep, they're actually the world leader in enrichment. More than half of world market capacity is in Russia. You've got Europe number two and China quickly growing as number three. US used to be number one back in the 80s. We were about 85% of global enrichment. Today, less than 0.1%. So we went from first place to basically last place. And what were the catalyst for that?

Starting point is 03:02:15 It was exactly what you're saying of the downblending. Back from pre-Cold War, obviously, there was post the fall of the Berlin Wall, there was mutual disarmament goals, and there was trade. And so it was called the Megatons to Megawatts program, where the U.S. worked with Russia to downblend weapons into fuel that could be run in reactors. That was the start of it. And then with the fall of the Berlin Wall, I think the U.S. basically said, hey, free trade, let's go get our fuel from other countries who do this very affordably and consistently.

Starting point is 03:02:46 And maybe we don't need to have this outdated capability of gaseous diffusion, which was running at a few sites in the U.S. So over time, we basically outsourced it. Other countries were better than us at it. and we allowed that skill to atrophy. Yeah. When you look at the S curve of nuclear power growth, we went through this exponential period

Starting point is 03:03:04 and then it basically flatlined for, I don't know, 40, 50 years. How much of that is due to Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, like, fear-mongering? How much of it is due to just the oil and gas companies being elite and just compounding and they're just so big that they can hire all the best talent, do all the best lobbying? What are the different factors that go into the plateau that we've seen in nuclear power generation? Yeah, on limiting nuclear power, I think everyone lists those things. People will also mention the regulator.

Starting point is 03:03:37 Yeah. I think it's none of those things. Interesting. Yeah. So if you actually look at the data, nuclear has been the safest, cleanest form of baseload power. Yeah. But it hasn't been the cheapest. And so, you know, that S curve followed a period and maxing out the S curve.

Starting point is 03:03:53 really was at a time where costs were just rising dramatically on nuclear builds. They were run like huge construction projects. So most of nuclear all the way through the 90s was classic light water reactors, you know, billion, $10 billion projects, over-schedule, run just like highway projects, like other things that just were not done efficiently. The move you now see towards advanced reactors is all about changing that. So all the advanced reactors basically have two goals. one is often increased safety, the other is decreased cost.

Starting point is 03:04:27 Glad they're care about safety. Often passive safety, so not relying on active measures. But essentially... And the goal here is, like, you have a private company who has somebody, they have potential customers that will pay for power or even help them fund the CAPEX, and they're heavily incentivized to stay on schedule and deliver it at a cost,

Starting point is 03:04:50 or deliver effectively the system. at a cost that, whereas like a government, you know, funded project has maybe less of an incentive to actually hit cost, you know, stay within budget. Yeah, I think the key dimension is that they want to be factory built. And so if you're factory built, okay, we can get these coming off an assembly line. We can have the parts made with extreme, you know, consistency and bring costs in over time. And then those pieces can be deployed out to a site and installed and turn online. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:05:20 And that's what the, you know, the acronym SMR is small modular reactor, where the small part is small enough to be built in a factory. So that's the whole point. Now, if you go that small. How is that, is that plane size that the, at the length? Think of like extremely wide load size. So highway transportable. So Dougat Radiant is shipping container sized one megawatts. So replacement for a diesel generator usually. Exactly. And now people are talking about, well, what if we get a thousand of those together? We get a gigawatt. Maybe we can power. an AI data center. Is the AI boom and the AI narrative changing anything for you? Is there more maybe about your business, but also just about regulatory openness, excitement about the category, just getting real about a transition to a different fuel source? Yeah, I think you've seen a few tailwinds in the nuclear space. AI has certainly been a huge tailwind. Yeah. And the hypers have always wanted baseload power and they wanted to be clean. That really points you towards nuclear where the missing piece has been cost. And so they're turning towards SMRs as the way of reducing the cost. Whether it's one megawatt, a thousand of them together to make a gigawatt,

Starting point is 03:06:28 or maybe it's 20 megawatts. People are coming up with different formats to solve the need in AI. And there's even companies that are bringing old nuclear facilities back online, just building, okay, I'm going to go get a Westinghouse, but that was not an option a while ago. And so, I mean, just this week didn't met a partner with Oaklow to bring some nuclear power online. The timelines are depressing in AI world, I think about AGI next year, and then you see that they are doing a deal that won't come online until 2032. But at the same time, better than than never. How are you thinking about timelines? Imagine that since this is a big step moving into this role, you're thinking in decades or longer.

Starting point is 03:07:08 How do you think about when to hit certain milestones, how to grow the business, what you can do in a 12 to 18 month cycle? Right. So for us, we're online by end of decade. That is our goal. That's our line in the sand. Late last year in August, we announced a lease with the DOE in Kentucky to re-industrialize a site that used to host enrichment in Paducah, Kentucky. That's right. That's right. So we are now breaking ground and preparing that site to build on. That'll be online by end of decades. That's roughly our timeline. That timeline is dictated by construction and by licensing. Basically those two things. scale of construction and the scale of actually bringing it online on day one will be increased through this award that we received last week. So that's the main way it impacts us is it actually

Starting point is 03:07:56 brings commercial scale, domestic scale, satisfying all U.S. needs forward a few years earlier. Are you a dependency or are you going to be a dependency for some of these other projects that are saying like, okay, we're going to build all of this infrastructure, but ultimately we're going to need fuel. Otherwise, the whole thing doesn't actually matter. That's right. Yeah, so after the decade of meeting different reactor companies, I realized none of them had a good source of fuel. And if you take a step back, fuel is upstream of everything. So if energy is upstream of all economic activity, fuel is upstream of energy. And if you can't make your own fuel, you can't do all the other things that you want to do. So within nuclear, there's this missing step of enrichment in the U.S. And so to answer your question, yes, we think that enrichment is the key bottleneck for nuclear energy. Yeah. How on earth have you approached hiring? Like, who's the oldest person on your team? Oldest, let's see, oldest person, I'm not sure. I mean, north of 50. Okay. I was, maybe there's some 90-year-old who's like, I still, I was at Chernobyl.

Starting point is 03:09:03 Well, in the industry, you will see this, what's effectively a bathtub curve, which is a lot of young people that are very... Getting started. Nuclear. And a lot of people that were in at the very beginning when it was exciting and new and growing very rapidly. And in the middle you have enthusiasts, people who really believed in even when no one else did. But the number of people seems to follow that curve. And so we've had consultants on our team who are in their 80s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I figured, right? Which is like they're maybe not like, sign me up for a new W2, but I'll be around the table and help you guys think through how to actually do this.

Starting point is 03:09:36 On the young side, how, where are you hiring from and how much retraining can you do? Can you take a great engineer and bring them up to speed on all the particulars of nuclear? Or do you want to go with someone who knows more about nuclear broadly and teach them something specific about refinement? Like, how do you think about training and building like the next generation up? Yeah, so one misconception of team composition is probably that it's all nuclear engineers. The reality of an enrichment facility or refining operation is that there's actually no nuclear reactions. Okay, yeah. So there's actually no chemical reactions.

Starting point is 03:10:13 Interesting. All there is is taking a material and separating it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's a sorting operation, it's a refinement operation. Interesting. So you do need some nuclear engineers, but it's not the bulk of the team. What we really need is, you know, the team today is comprised of aerospace engineers, like applied physics, electrical, software, chemical engineers, mechanical, all these classic engineering disciplines and then a few nuclear engineers. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:10:35 So we're really just looking for the best from every discipline. And then the facility in Paducah, can you give me a idea of what? scale we're talking about, we've seen Crusoe building these gigawatt campuses. They're massive. Are we at that scale or are we smaller? Like, is this a mega project or they're, you know, can you hop in a golf cart and drive around or can you hop on the bulldozer and push the dirt around? Or is it like, you know, those huge, you know, dump trucks that you see going into mines? Not that. Okay, not that big. So all above ground. So to set the stage, Paducah, Kentucky, yeah. Over 3,000 acres, used to host enrichment.

Starting point is 03:11:13 the number one enrichment site in the U.S. It's what made the U.S. the world leader in enrichment back in the 80s and 90s. That site was a DOE site that was then fully shut down in 2013. So the town still remembers when there was enrichment there. They're very supportive of it. The reason we picked Paducaa was actually the local community being extremely supportive of enrichment and nuclear operations there. Through conversations with the DOE, we found 100 acres at the south end of the site.

Starting point is 03:11:39 So to answer your size question, it's really 100 acres. inside the DOE fence where they are currently taking down the old gaseous diffusion plant and planning to re-industrialize that. So our partnership with DOE was around re-industrializing that site and potentially using some of the depleted uranium that's already there to help produce new fuel. So we're talking ballpark a million square feet of building on 100 acres. Got it.

Starting point is 03:12:06 You talk a big game about being upstream of the nuclear energy generation, but what's upstream of you? Does America have uranium in the ground? Do we have deposits? Do we need to mine this? Are we mining it? Yeah, I heard you guys have a whiteboard somewhere. We do. Please. Let's get the whiteboard out. I would love to have you wipe this out for you Whiteboard out for us. This is a live demo, which is always risky, but you are an expert in this. Let's see how this goes. We have them on the light on the mic. So explain to us What is this? The nuclear fuel reaction process or refinement process? This is yeah, this is This is just the five steps to make nuclear fuel. Okay, great.

Starting point is 03:12:46 So it's pretty simple. Step one is milling and mining. You get it out of the ground. That's U-308, often called yellow cake. Okay. You then convert it into a gas. Once it's converted into a gas, you can enrich. Once it's enriched.

Starting point is 03:13:04 Is that a centrifuge process, basically? There's a bunch of processes. We are not yet sharing our process. Maybe I'll come on later this year and share that one. that one, but there are a few different processes. Everything from centrifuge, gaseous diffusion, laser, aerodynamic, you know, aqueous. Once you enrich, you then can deconvert back into a solid, and once you have a solid, you make fuel pellets, that's fuel fabrication. Yes. So in the U.S. today, we already have U.S. mining. We do. In a few different states. And do we have the deposits here,

Starting point is 03:13:35 too? Is America rich in this natural resource? Yeah, we have plenty of uranium in the U.S. Our deposits are not as rich as some other countries, but they're still economical to mine. And so you see new mines coming online in Texas, in Wyoming. But if someone throws at you, do we have enough fuel to power, you know, 10 gigawatts of nuclear power during the next wave of the AI boom? You're not blinking at that. This is not the issue. So plenty of U.S. mines. U.S. conversion is actually right across the river from our site in Kentucky.

Starting point is 03:14:09 So there is a U.S. conversion facility run by Honeywell. Oh, interesting. And that's going well as well. That's working. That was mothballed last decade, bringing it back online now. So that production is coming back. Enrichment is the one step where there's no capacity, less than 0.1% of global capacity.

Starting point is 03:14:25 So effectively out of the game here, there is R&D scale in different locations, but nothing that's commercially relevant for either our existing reactors in the grid or the advanced reactors coming soon. Is that the hardest step in the process? I think it's a step with the most technology leverage. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:14:41 That's part of the reason we thought we can make a big difference here. Yeah, so you said you're not sharing your process there. I can think of a lot of reasons for that. Jordy quickly grab the mic. Is there any risk with this business of like fast follow risk? People see, you know, the business has traction. Yeah, I mean, it seems so easy. I imagine like every YC founder will just be I'm doing that.

Starting point is 03:15:01 No, I think to me it looks like the business with the least fast follow risk because you'd have to be insane to go after this opportunity. especially because like it feels like pretty quickly you'll have a talent vortex and a lot of the people that are the enthusiasts the people on that that sort of bath tub curve you talked about why would you want to work at the sort of you know second or third you know horse in in the race uh or how do you think about that I mean as a as a former FF guy I imagine like you want the you want to build a business with the lowest possible fast fall at risk yeah the main the main goal here is just bring this capability back. Your intuition's right though. It's not an easy thing to start. So to build a facility like this is over a billion dollars. Multiple billions at full scale. You know, obviously it's a sense of technology. So a lot of the people on the team, almost all of them have to have security clearance who are working on tech. And so, yeah, there's a lot of different hurdles to get started. But, you know, I think at the end of the day,

Starting point is 03:16:03 we want there to be multiple U.S. players in the space. We think this is a lot like, you know, There's so many parallels to space launch where I started my career at SpaceX. SpaceX did become the place that a lot of aerospace engineers wanted to work. They moved fast. They did innovative things. They were making a real difference in the industry. But ultimately, even SpaceX wanted there to be many players. Because the ultimate goal wasn't to build a business.

Starting point is 03:16:26 The ultimate goal was to make human spaceflight happen. And for us, it's really about making nuclear energy, not just the safest, not just the clearness, but the cheapest form of baseload. And the SpaceX thing is so interesting because, you know, obviously the Blue Origin teams worked very hard, but you have to wonder, would Blue Origin be as dominant as without SpaceX? Probably there's like some knock on or competitive effect, just like, oh, if he's going, I got to go. And now America has the two best space launch companies. It seems like, it seems like China's massive. To build a viable competitor, you might need to spend a decade at the company and actually learn the problem.

Starting point is 03:17:05 And with Blue Origin, people forget, Blue Origin started before Space. Oh, that's right. So I think the big difference was that Bloorgen had someone that everyone on the team knew would just fund it continuously until it succeeded. SpaceX was do or die, basically. Yeah. And so their whole mindset was always, we're bringing the cost down. Yeah. We're commercial.

Starting point is 03:17:24 We have to stand on our own two feet. That's our mindset as well. Yeah, every penny matters. Interesting. Talk to me about the fuel. You said fuel pellets. We've had Doug from Radiant on the show before. He talks about triso fuel.

Starting point is 03:17:36 What is trisof fuel? Are you able to make it? Are you solving his problem? Or are you just one piece of the puzzle for him when he needs fuel? We are this middle step of enrichment. So down the gas that's converted one step ahead of us, turn it back into a solid, and then turn it into fuel pellets. Triso is one type of fuel pellet. So triso is typically used for HALU, the more enriched fuel. And the basic idea is that it's additional containment for the fuel. So not only is a containment, but it also has a negative reaction coefficient with temperature. So as things get hotter, it slows down the reactions and basically self-regulates. Got it. And so a lot of people like trisot. Safer.

Starting point is 03:18:19 Safer. Sater. It adds a little bit of cost. Okay. Reduces packing density inside the core. Yeah. So there's some drawbacks, but overall net positive. But if triso becomes a massive industry, you'll be part of the supply chain.

Starting point is 03:18:32 That's right. That makes sense. Okay. Got it. There's really two form factors. People are thinking about. lot. One is HALU inside of trisopelots. Second is traditional LEU cylinders, ingots. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What are you seeing in terms of timelines to bring new reactors

Starting point is 03:18:51 online? Obviously, we talked to Doug about going to the dome and testing a new reactor design. There's a constant line I hear repeated about the regulators having approved new designs. It feels like there's a lot of energy to change that. When do you expect sort of a blip in the graph, an uptick in the growth of nuclear power generation in America? Yeah, we really expect to see that growth curve really getting steep at the end of the decade. So you've probably talked to a few reactor companies beyond Doug.

Starting point is 03:19:23 A lot of people are aiming for this year for first test. First criticality, first tests. You then would go through a licensing process that now under NRC executive orders is meant to only take 18 months. And so, you know, that puts you at, let's say, 2028 for really having the ability to go build and deploy a lot of reactors.

Starting point is 03:19:42 I think we then see that really curve up early 2030s. Got it. Yeah. And I imagine that even if you get a radiant or any of these other companies to produce a few units, it takes a while until it actually puts a dent in the curve, right? That's right. Talk to me about the relationship with the White House. I love seeing you in the Oval Office.

Starting point is 03:20:03 It's amazing. It's such a tangible example of the work that you're doing. But how do the other energy players think about nuclear today? You could imagine a world where big oil is saying, yeah, it sounds good, but let's just not do that. Let's keep doing what we're doing because it's our core business. Or we could see what we're doing in AI where Google jumped in on the AI boom immediately. And so do you think the oil and gas companies will be, They've created it.

Starting point is 03:20:32 They created it, I guess. Maybe it's a bad analogy. But you get what I'm saying. Like, you can see a world where oil and gas companies become very synergistic. They're partnering with you. They are excited about the new technology. Or maybe it's more just competitive till the end. How do you see that playing out?

Starting point is 03:20:47 I don't worry about the competition piece. Really? Yeah, I think one microcosm of this is really looking at the Department of Energy, and it's, you know, Secretary Wright comes from the oil and gas industry, yet he's been one of the biggest advocates for nuclear energy. Interesting. And so a lot of people will ask the same question around, is the oil and gas industry an enemy of nuclear?

Starting point is 03:21:08 Hasn't been an issue for nuclear? I'd say not at all. The oil and gas industry has been trying to increase U.S. energy production by whatever means are available. And that's the lever that they have. The nuclear industry has not done the same thing for, I think, a variety of reasons. But people blame outside parties. I think, you know, in the principle of just taking ownership for things, I think it's the, the

Starting point is 03:21:29 industry needs to take ownership for why it has not grown. And I think the advanced reactor vendors are trying to solve that by bringing down the cost while increasing safety and increasing deployability. Yeah. Jordie? Where, how are you setting up the company geographically? I'm assuming you're spending a good amount of time in Kentucky, but, you know, where, where's the team mostly? Hard of San Francisco. Yeah. Yeah, right downtown. No. Kentucky is where we're really growing the team aggressively, but engineering is also in LA. Yeah. So two pieces, engineering,

Starting point is 03:22:02 headquarters, GNA, really primarily California, and then the facility itself, construction, production, primarily Kentucky. Talk to me about solar. You worked at SpaceX. Elon's a bit of a solar maxi.

Starting point is 03:22:18 At least it seems like he's a solar maxi. It's always hard to read the tea leaves from his post, but solar seems like a similar opportunity. It's a big scale. It's unlimited. It's the fusion reactor in the sky with unlimited energy. And a lot of folks have painted sci-fi solar punk futures. You obviously looked at those companies, too.

Starting point is 03:22:39 How do the two technologies play together? Why did you think nuclear was the real bottleneck? What are the benefits of nuclear relative to solar? When do you pick one over the other? What does the blend look like over the next couple decades? Yeah. Yeah. So the solar AI data center in orbit concept is a,

Starting point is 03:22:56 new thing. You know, it's probably the last few weeks that's really become something people are talking about. Yeah. If we rewind a couple years ago and we're talking, okay, data centers on Earth and do you want to do solar or do you want to do nuclear? Solar obviously takes a lot more area on the ground, but there's there is plenty of area for that in general. The missing piece was really storage. Yeah. So solar is inherently cyclical. Yep. You need to smooth it out. To smooth it out, you need very cheap grid scale or at least gigawatt scale storage. Batteries. Batteries or other forms. We haven't had that yet at a cost point that I think can compete with nuclear.

Starting point is 03:23:30 Sure. That could change. And that would be great. But for now in the foreseeable future, on Earth, it's nuclear. And that's what you mean by baseload. Nuclear power plant. Once you fire it up, you're getting whatever it says. If it says one megawatt, you get one megawatt, 24 hours a day. It doesn't matter if it's sunshine, rain, snow. That's right. Versus turning off at night time and having to go off the batteries that were charged up during the day. Now when we talk about in orbit, it's a whole different ballgame. Because you can be in sun synchronous orbit, you get sunlight like 99% of the time, correct? That's right.

Starting point is 03:24:00 Got it. So if you have very cheap launch capacity, if your GPUs don't weigh very much, which they don't and their high value, you could potentially put all of that in orbit, have your solar panel completely in sunsync, solve the battery issue. The one remaining piece is you've got a lot of incident solar energy. You're going to run those GPUs. How do you cool them? And I think that's the piece that people are going to be working on for the next few years.

Starting point is 03:24:22 Yeah, that's the material science question. So you're saying put the solar panels in orbit, keep them off the Earth. Earth is your domain. We're going to do nuclear down here. That works? Of course, we'll do both. Until, of course, you know, the 2040 pitch for general matter, we're putting a reactor on the moon. On the moon. Moon reactors. Nuclear does have applications in space, though, right? Didn't the, what was it, the Mars lander, the Mars helicopter that we put out there, had some sort of nuclear fuel in it? How do you get energy without putting a full nuclear reactor there? Do you understand how it works?

Starting point is 03:24:55 Yeah, typically you'll have a fuel source that has a shorter half-life and can emit a lot of energy more quickly. Uranium has a very, very long half-life. Some of these other ones have much shorter. So you can harness heat off of that and charge batteries continuously. So it's basically just a hot rock. That's right. It's not actually a full reactor with rods going in and out. It's not Chernobyl or anything like that.

Starting point is 03:25:15 It's just a hot rock. Yeah, that's right. If you're talking about lunar reactors, that would be a different story. Sure. If you're talking about interstellar things from science fiction, more like a reactor is what everyone's always talked about. But the things that have been deployed so far are usually radioisotopes. Yeah, that makes sense.

Starting point is 03:25:32 What are the biggest bottlenecks leading into the end of the decade? 2030, that seems like an important moment for the company. Obviously, jobs not finished then, but talent, money, approvals, regulatory, anything else? What else is going on? Yeah, the way we think about it is the primary bottleneck to get online by end of decade and to be at huge scale with the world's lowest cost of enrichment is all about the team. So it's all about recruiting.

Starting point is 03:26:01 It's all about engineering. It's not just engineering of what goes into the building. It's the construction of the building. So out in Kentucky, we're building our own EPC and general contractor in-house to run that, just like was done at Tesla gigafactories. In L.A., we're doing the engineering on all the components that go inside to cost and scale optimize. those. How do you balance the desire to run quickly with not swinging at every pitch when you get a new applicant? It feels like hiring is maybe similar to investing. You don't want to just say,

Starting point is 03:26:33 I have to make one investment every quarter because my fund is exercise. You also might not want to say, I need to hire one engineer every month. How do you stay sane in an environment where you have to hire people? Yeah, right. It's lumpy. Yeah, you know what your open roles are. You know what you want to have on the team. If we look at that, we're hiring over 100 people this year across sites. Oh, we got to hit the gone for that. Boom. How's it feel in person?

Starting point is 03:27:02 It's like you can really feel it in your bone. It's louder in person, right? I can feel it. Yeah, that's great. But like you said, you have to, you know, the key thing for scaling a company is keeping the bar high. Yeah. I think Naval has said this a bunch of times. The team you build is the company you build.

Starting point is 03:27:17 Yeah. And so we're trying to find people that are just extremely passionate, great, engineers, great operators who are aligned and just want to work on this problem and solve it. Yeah. What's the biggest lesson from working with Peter on the board, on the team, like with your career that you're taking through this business? I think for this business, it was really the lesson of, you know, a lot of people want to go after a trillion dollar market and own a tiny percent of it. Sure. We're trying to solve first the HALU shortage in the U.S.

Starting point is 03:27:47 That's going to prevent all reactors from coming online if they can't have the fuel that they need. That's arguably a small market today, but you want to start, it's okay to start in a small market and then grow into a bigger one. And so our markets are really HALU, which you could say is maybe a $100 million market today, something like that. And then L.EU in Richmond, which in the U.S. alone is a couple billion dollar market. And then you go from there. So I think probably the best lesson is the zero to one lesson of start small, solve a real problem for some known customer and go from there. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Jordy, anything else?

Starting point is 03:28:19 Very cool. Thank you so much. the full breakdown for coming on the show. The whiteboard moment. We appreciate a whiteboard moment. Well, we will leave you there. Thank you so much for tuning in. We will see you tomorrow at 11 a.m. Pacific. Leave us five stars on Apple. Can't wait. Yes and Spotify. And sign up for a newsletter at TBPN.com. See you tomorrow. Cheers. Goodbye.

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