TBPN - Apple Unleashes $100B Buyback, Palantir Crushes Earnings, OpenAI's New Open Source Model | Alex Albert, Scott Kupor, Kyle Harrison, Brielle Terry, Sean Henry, Andi Duro, Gabe Pereyra, Kareem Amin

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're watching TV. Today is Tuesday, August 5th, 2025. We are live from the TBPN Ultradrome, the Temple of Technology, the Fortress of Finance, the Capital of Capital. Jordan is, how are you doing? I'm actually seeing stars. People said, people said the intro could be louder. Yeah. They're like, that's the main feedback.

Starting point is 00:00:19 I took it there. I took it there. Good job. Anyway, let's kick it off of this post from Bucco Capital Bloke. Apparently, Variety has reported that Roku launches Howdy. A low-cost, no-adds streamer, but it doesn't want to compete with Netflix. Calling it a streamer is funny in itself. What is this streamer?

Starting point is 00:00:38 Streaming platform is a short for sleep streaming platform? Oh yeah, I work at a small streamer, American streamer called Netflix. Is that a, is that, does Netflix count as a streamer? I don't think of it as a streaming service. I don't think of it's a streaming service because streams the content to you. Yeah. Well, anyway, Bucco Capital Blok shares a hilarious post from the bangor archa. Orkboxer.

Starting point is 00:00:57 Orkboxer says, have you seen the new show? It's on tubu. It's on tubu. It's literally on hebe. It's on poody with ads. It's literally on Dippy. You can probably find it on a wee now. Dude, it's on gumpy.

Starting point is 00:01:11 It's a Feebo original. It's on poob. You can watch it on poob. You can go to Poob and watch it. You can log on to Poob right now. Go to Poob, dive into it. You can poob it. It's on Poob.

Starting point is 00:01:22 Poob has it for you. Poob has it for you. Where do they get these names? Where do they get these names? It's like the pharmaceutical industry, how they have, like every drug kind of sounds like vaguely like a familiar world with goofy and Ozympic. Like they sound like real words, but like the domains are available. It is one of the most wild things anyway. It's great.

Starting point is 00:01:46 Yeah, we should go check out howdy and you should check out Ramp.Ramp.com. Time is money. Say both. These are used corporate cards, bell payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. And we have our first story. So we talked about this a little bit yesterday. Take him, author of the Invidia Way, and a huge fan of Jensen Wong and invidia, says, here's what I would do if I were CEO of Apple, quadruple the RAM and iPhone, so 32 gigs,

Starting point is 00:02:09 have the max model at 64 gigs. Memory is oxygen for local on device AI. More, equal, smarter, more powerful. Take the margin hit. Memory isn't even that expensive. Then this is where we get controversial. This is what we were debating yesterday. Number two is buy mistral or end.

Starting point is 00:02:23 Anthropic and invest $100 billion compute annually. Annually. That is, I didn't realize. So buying Mr. All are Anthropic, that's $100 billion out the door day one. Then you're spending $100 billion a year to build a multi-gigawatt data center. Take him a great writer. And the more you spend time with this post, the more you can imagine a world where he takes Apple, you know, out of the MAG7. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:02:53 He says build multi-gaggagawatt data centers and enter the frontier AI model race in a big way. This would be fantastic for Nvidia. I mean, take him seems like he's really full tilt on Nvidia to 10 trillion right now. Anyway, Apple has the capital. Apple knows the AI computing shift is existential. Where's the bold action and urgency? So there's a lot to agree with here. We debated it.

Starting point is 00:03:16 The one thing we didn't debate is that you restreams the best stream platform. One live stream, 30 destinations, multi-stream to reach for your audience wherever they are. Go to restream to sign up. Anyway, what are you saying? What is AI is seemingly important, but what is the existential threat that we get? Just play this out. New computing platform, eyeware that's integrated with AI. We haven't seen anybody launch a hardware device or even plan to launch a hardware device yet.

Starting point is 00:03:45 That's not an additional device outside of your computer. We are both on MacBook pros or MacBook. Using iPhones. We have iPhones. They were additive. And then other people went further and they added an iPad to their life or they added a watch to their life. Not even Avi Schiffman, the most bold hardware founder in the world is saying, I'm going

Starting point is 00:04:05 to replace your iPhone. Yeah. It's just saying I'm going to give you a friend. So I mean, I do think that there is some potential, like if there was ever a crack in the foundation of Apple's monopoly on high-end smartphones, it's now. Because not, like, you're not going to get me to sway. with slightly different design or slightly different shape or it's folding like those phones have come to market no one has meaningfully shifted but a but a

Starting point is 00:04:34 phone that was designed from the ground up around AI and really really really optimized for chat GPT and really like AI first at the core just everything is infused sure like maybe there's a chance there versus anything else that came out like Apple was always like like 5G was never a differentiator. Apple was never behind on that. They were never behind on display resolution. Like they had the retina screen immediately. But you could imagine a situation where if Apple was three years behind on retina screens, people would be like, well, yeah, like I want the one that's sharper screen or something. And Apple's been behind on a lot of things by a year or two. And that's

Starting point is 00:05:13 what leads the Android fans to always say like, Android's had this for two years or that's why I have Android because I like the cutting edge because you're actually you actually kind of are in many ways more on the cutting edge when you're in the Android ecosystem but you just don't have all the integration that comes from. Android owners love to tell you. Yes, yes. The specs of their advice. They love to go spec for spec. Yes, yes, exactly. But the question is should Apple actually go so hard to play catch up? And so Apple beat earnings. I mean, going hard could look like buying perplexity. People have made the case. My voice is still shot from that. People have made that case, but it still feels insane when you look at the history, Apple's M&A history. And often, they're happy to acquire talent, but they don't do it at the VCs.

Starting point is 00:06:13 Historically, they're not doing it as sort of unicorn valuations, right? Yeah. Yeah. The like going hard could look like spending $100 billion or it could look like just figuring out what their next Google deal looks like because Apple has this insane deal with Google where Google is the default search engine on Safari and they make what $10 billion. I think it's $20 billion in profit every year off of that deal. It's like a fantastic deal and people are worried that it might go. away. So there's something in this, but there's something in here. But you know, you could imagine a situation where Apple is getting a massive payday from a foundation model lab to route iPhone customers to that model. And we haven't seen that dynamic play out. There's this question of will Apple need to be. One scenario is, is there's a

Starting point is 00:07:12 world where a foundation model gets the Siri button and Google keeps the this default search. Sure. And Apple suddenly is getting another, like 100%. Yeah. I mean, Ben Thompson's written about this. We've talked to a lot of folks about this. Like, there's this weird world where chat GPT is so dominant that they might,

Starting point is 00:07:32 like they could swap out the foundation model for a different model. And most people wouldn't know. They'd be like, oh, yeah, I use chat GPT. And they'd be like, 4-0 or 03 or Gemini or Lama. And then be like, I don't know. I don't care. It just gives me the answers. And so you could imagine a world where Apple is pumping users into monetized, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:56 LLM queries and getting a huge check from that. And maybe that's the most elegant solution here to like get back in the AI race. I would love to know how much OpenAI already pays Apple just through the app store. Oh, yeah. I don't know. Yeah, because if you subscribe to OpenAI in the app store, they probably take 30% of that. And if they're making a billion a year, And maybe a third of that is from iPhone subscriptions, in-app purchases.

Starting point is 00:08:23 Like, you're looking at, like, $100 million a month? Is that, like, are we in the right territory? That seems, like, extremely high. I know. I'm going to look in the app store right now and see how much they actually push in-app subscriptions. Yeah. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:08:39 I'm pretty sure I subscribed on web long before downloading the app, and then I transferred the app in. And chat GP team might, like the team might push you out into a web view. Like, you can do that now. It's getting easier every year because of the antitrust stuff. And it certainly makes, you know, economic, it's economically rational, especially if you're going to get somebody to upgrade to $200 a month. You can't make changes to your subscription inside this app.

Starting point is 00:09:03 Okay, so the answer is zero. So right now, I think $0 are changing hands between Apple and Open AI either way. But that could change. And maybe that's the end. But on the question of should Apple make a huge acquisition, Tim Cook actually addressed it in the earnings call. He said something like, we've acquired around seven companies this year, and that's companies from all walks of life, not all AI-oriented.

Starting point is 00:09:37 We're very open to M&A that accelerates our roadmap. We're not stuck on a certain size of company, although the ones that we've acquired thus far this year are small in nature. And he said, like, we're acquiring one every few weeks, which is not quite seven per year. I mean, I guess that's like one a month, but a few weeks, sure. So he's doing deals, but he's not looking at anything massive. And I think that actually makes sense. My question was, if you were the CEO of Apple and you had $100 billion burning a hole in your pocket,

Starting point is 00:10:08 what are the other things that you could do with that money? Formula One team. You could buy every team and the division and every track and all the sponsorships. I made a post about this joke. It's crazy. It's so much money. It's so much money. I made a post about this jokingly earlier this year.

Starting point is 00:10:27 I still think it would be cool for Apple to be an F1 in the way that Red Bull is. I think that'd be great. No, no, I agree. Yeah, I think that would be great. The one thing culturally is like Apple's brand is very premium and very high end. I don't know if they could handle a few losing seasons. This was the early bear case for Apple TV. I was talking to someone, a very successful Hollywood producer,

Starting point is 00:10:55 and he was saying that the nature of Hollywood is like venture capital. It is a hits-driven business. If you don't accept that you're going to have massive flops, an egg on your face and embarrassing moments, you will not make it. And just like any venture capitalist who is like, I only want to make investments where they won't blow up, you're not going to make it, right? Yeah, Mark Andreessen had a, there was a clip from an episode he did recently talking about how you lose sleepover the companies you don't invest in, not the ones you invest in and don't work. Exactly. Exactly. And so you have to be risk on. You have to be risk on in Hollywood as you do in venture.

Starting point is 00:11:35 And so the question was like, can Apple deal with spending $50 or $100 million on some show that completely flops and everyone's like this is a disaster? And they've navigated really well. I think that they have had some flops, but they've kind of tucked those behind the scenes. Whereas Netflix has started to get more kind of, you know, people talk trash about what was that red notice or they did some massive movie with the rock that kind of flopped. They've done a few of these big movies that haven't done that well. And it's sort of like, oh, like, you know, they're not, you know, God's gift to, you know, producing. But it doesn't matter because overall Netflix is doing very well. And all it takes is like one squid game to like carry the whole quarter, basically, just like adventure.

Starting point is 00:12:21 Or like one, you know, you sign the friend's deal and then or the office and people are watching that like 20 years later. So. And apparently, so F1 has surpassed half a billion dollars in box office earnings. as of last week. I mean, it's a fantastic movie. So that's an example of a home run. But it's not like they're doing that once a quarter by any means. Oh, and John Exley's in the chat.

Starting point is 00:12:46 Shout out to John Exley. Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to connect with him at our party in New York, but he did attend. You got to chat with him. A lot of the team got to chat with him. So thank you for all you do, John. We really appreciate you. The entire team is giving you a round of applause.

Starting point is 00:12:59 General. The general of the chat. You've done a ton of work for us, and we really appreciate it. Anyway, if you had $100 billion burning a hole in your pocket at Apple, what would you do? I have a bunch of crazy ideas. Go through your list. So most people would just say, hey, you're going to benefit from AI because you are the window into all technology. And it doesn't matter if it's if it's generative video or text.

Starting point is 00:13:26 Like people will be consuming it on devices. You sell devices. You'll be fine. Just like search did not destroy Apple. it actually made Apple stronger because people search on their iPhones. So most people would just say, hey, return it to the shareholders. Apple's already done that. They've returned over a trillion dollars to shareholders in the past 10 years.

Starting point is 00:13:44 Those are kind of rough numbers, but it's basically that, which is an insane amount of money to return to shareholders. But Samsung is worth $330 billion. They could buy the entire company lever it up with two-thirds debt, and they would just own both sides of the smart phone market then. Probably extremely anti-competitive. I think Lena Khan would have a connip. fit, but funny concept, funny concept. The other, the other, the other idea is massively expand the

Starting point is 00:14:11 retail footprint. So Apple right now, I was surprised by this. How many retail stores do you think they have worldwide? I don't know, like 599 or 601. Did you look at, did I tell you this? It's 535. So it's not that many. It's mostly in the tier one city is there's usually only like one in every city they don't really they don't take the starbucks strategy where they put them across the street from each other yeah but for a hundred billion dollars they absolutely could a hundred billion dollars is enough to open 6,000 new apple stores so they would be 6,600 so they would be up around 7000 stores which for reference is as many subways as there are and as many CBSs as they are and as many 711s as there are in America and so everywhere you see a subway you can see an apple store and I feel like

Starting point is 00:15:02 this would be a big upgrade for America. I feel like if you just walked around every American city where tier one, tier two, tier three city, you just see a beautiful sheet of glass and it's an Apple store on every corner in America. They could also acquire every firearms store in the country and turn them into Apple stores. They could do a take private of Figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. Get started for free at Figma.com. I'm still buzzing from Thursday. It was a fantastic day. Absolutely fantastic.

Starting point is 00:15:35 Exhausting, but we're back in the game now. Anybody that is tuning into the show for the first time today is going to be hearing our ideas for Apple and just thinking these are some of the worst I've ever heard. But they're definitely fun. Okay. So speaking of glass from the Apple stores, they could buy Corning, which makes Gorilla Glass. That's a $55 billion company. Then with the money left over, they could buy Interdigital, which owns all the patents on 5G and 6. So they could basically patent troll everyone else in the industry.

Starting point is 00:16:04 Just get extremely anti-competitive. They could also, with the money that is left over, we're still in the first like, let's vertically integrate this company mode. They could also buy 10 rare earth or cobalt mines. So they own the supply chain there. And then they could also build four battery gigafactories and lock up the Sapphire crystal supply chain that's used on the iPhone camera. So they could just completely own their entire supply chain for a hundred hundred billion. And that's just one year, one year. And then they, you know, the proposal was do

Starting point is 00:16:35 this every year. The other thing that was interesting about Tay Kim's post is if you, if you listen to the earnings call, Tim Cook and the team were very clear that they don't even want to finance like data center development themselves. They're still working with these sort of like third party lenders to like capitalize them. And so again, Tim Cook is the king of efficiency. Yeah. He knows his business. Should we get into some of that? No, I have one more. One more.

Starting point is 00:17:05 So Open AI, they act will hire Johnny Ive. They're coming out with something that's competitive. It's going to be some sleepless nights at Apple when that thing drops, right? It's going to be stressful because, like, maybe it doesn't go super well, but like, you know, it's a serious threat. Open AI is a serious company. They have a lot of customers. And they got Johnny Yves, your former goat, designer, ready to drop, you know, the next. And a bunch of former Apple employees.

Starting point is 00:17:30 Tons amazing, amazing team over in hardware at Open AI. So the question is like, how do you fire back with your Apple and you have $100 billion to spend? Here's what you do. The cogs on an iPhone are less because they have a margin. So you take that $100 billion. You buy 200 million iPhones and you send a brand new iPhone to 200 million Americans. And you're just like, oh, how much are you charging, Johnny Ive and Open AI? Well, ours is free this year.

Starting point is 00:18:02 We're doing a free iPhone for the entire year. They should just do something like that where it's like your 11th iPhone in a row. Is free? It's free. They'd probably have 200 million people with free iPhones. And they're just like, yeah, we're actually, we want to keep you in this ecosystem. We like our services revenue. We're excited to be a platform.

Starting point is 00:18:20 We're excited. We're just giving it back. We're just giving back. Can you imagine? I think that would also be extremely anti-competitive. I don't even know if there's a regulatory framework to stop that from happening. But I mean price competition is a real thing and like if you if you discover that your competitor is undercapitalized and can't can't win a capital war you could potentially cut

Starting point is 00:18:41 cut cut prices so dramatically that it's like yeah the other phone's like cool but you know this one's free I guess I'm just staying in the in the blue bubble world Tim Cook next earnings call all right we're going to buy all of the minds we depend on and we're going to make the iPhone free Stock just eats like 80%. He's like, I'm petty. I'm petty. And you know what, Johnny O, you know, I'm not going to let you win.

Starting point is 00:19:09 I would rather die than let you win. Yeah, I would destroy myself. Yeah, I've been reading a lot about cutting your nose despite your face. And I'm pretty into the strategy. Anyway, let me tell you about Vanta, automate compliance, manage risk, improve trust, continuously. Vantas trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliant. process and replaces it with continuous automation, whether you're pursuing your first framework or managing a complex program.

Starting point is 00:19:34 Go talk to the Purple Lamas, bansansans.com. Anyway, so Ben Thompson's been noodling on Apple and AI strategy. He had a rough go because he, I think he took some time off or shifted. He shifted his posting schedule right when all the earnings dropped and there was all this crazy stuff going on. So he's just writing about Apple earnings now, but he has. he still has some good takeaway saying, you know, even if they do, even if Apple does swoop in and buy Mastrol, for example, the overall point holds, Apple isn't going to compete with Open

Starting point is 00:20:10 AI Anthropic metaX and Google on pursuing AI superintelligence. Like five extremely well-funded, extremely serious teams. Apple's going to go their own way, centered on their devices, and their direct relationship with their customers, at least as long as Cook is in charge. And anyone that's saying that Cook needs to step aside, I think is in for a world of hurt because he's been on a generational run and he's solving the most important problem for that company, which is not the application layer in artificial intelligence. It's the supply chain and keeping the flow of iPhones coming and selling phones. Make and put the phones in the boxes. Tim, he's doing it. He's doing it. He's really, he's really,

Starting point is 00:20:54 he's really underrated. He's been CEO longer than Steve Jobs was. No. I hope he's the on this 10-year CEO of Apple in history. He better be bringing some of these AI researcher comp in as comps when he gets in front of the comp committee at Apple. Yeah. That is true. He should definitely be getting a bump.

Starting point is 00:21:14 If he does have researchers, I mean, he has AI researchers. They are improving different functionality. I feel like maybe I'm hallucinating this, but it feels like the text to speech engine has gotten better on my phone. I listened to a semi-analysis article with the default Apple Safari text to speech and it was very listenable. So I think we're getting better there.

Starting point is 00:21:36 Regardless, like he's got to get his AI researchers graphite so they can embrace code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. So anyway, Hunter SPX is shocked at Alex Karp's comments on the Palantir earnings call. Carp said the growth rate of our business has accelerated radically. after years of investment on our part and derision by some, the skeptics are admittedly fewer now, having been defanged and bent into a kind of submission, yet we see no reason to pause, to relent here. So good.

Starting point is 00:22:14 Citrini says, you can't accuse the guy of not having flair. These are so good. Palantir ticked up over 400 billion up almost 10% in the last five days. Let's go. Congratulations to everyone over at Palantir. Congratulations to Eliano, who's been on the show, a friend of the show. He says he's actually in tears after Carp went on CNBC and said, just tell the haters, read them and weep. I love it.

Starting point is 00:22:38 We covered this yesterday a little bit, but I wanted to go one step deeper. Friend of the show, Marcus Milioni was posting earlier, a bunch of cell orders that he had for Palantir earlier this year. And he was feeling very, weeping, very disappointed with himself. So Palantir Technologies boosted its full year outlook after posting higher profit and revenue for the second quarter driven by continuing demand for its artificial intelligence projects. The Denver company which sells AI software to manage and analyze large amounts of data. Everyone says what does Palantir do? It now expects revenue to be between 4.14 billion and 4.15 billion. What a narrow band for the year.

Starting point is 00:23:25 They know what's coming. Up from the prior outlook of $3.89 billion and $3.9 billion. So the interesting thing here is that they, where is it here? I missed it. So revenue from U.S. commercial customers rose 93% to $306 million. So Carp's been talking about this for a while. Just look at us. Like you say that we're just a government contractor.

Starting point is 00:23:53 look at our commercial side of the business. Like we're doing very well there. Companies are buying talking to. When they casually mentioned that they got like a nine figure contract in Japan randomly. On the corporate side? Yeah, on the corporate side. I don't know. We've talked to a lot of Palantir people, but it's all over the place.

Starting point is 00:24:12 I mean, everyone from like Airbus, like if you want to know like what Palantir does just, just the Airbus example is like the best because it's just like you're making planes. there's a ton of different parts that go in that plane. You need to see the lead time, the durability, the testing of all those. You need not just a database of what you have in stock. We need more seatbelts to get this plane out the door. We need more engines. We need more doors or whatever.

Starting point is 00:24:41 You've got to buy all these different things probably from TransDi or something. Some PE-backed small manufacturer makes the subcomponents. You've got to buy all those components. put them all together and then ship the, ship the final plane out. Well, you don't just need a database of what everything's in. You need to know how these things interact. And that's why Palantir always says like ontology. It's the layer on top of the database.

Starting point is 00:25:02 And so there's been a bunch of database companies that have grown a tonne snowflake and Snowflake and Palantir. We're kind of duking it out. And now they're kind of partners and friendly. You put all your data together into a data lake and put Palantir on top of it. And so it's driving, it's all good news for CARP. Two CEOs top $1 billion in raises. Palantir CEO Alex Carp's 2020 Equity Award has soared in value to $14.7 billion as the company's stock grows.

Starting point is 00:25:37 That was when the company first went public and he got a bunch of stock and it's grown and grown and grown as the share price has appreciated. Or Snowflake. Stock chart looks very different. What's the market cap right now? 68 billion. Not bad. Still up 30%. A little side project incubation for the folks over at Sutter Hill.

Starting point is 00:26:00 It is the latest ultra-exclusive achievement for executives of big U.S. companies. The billion-dollar year, two bosses made it last year holding stock-based pay that swelled in value by at least 10 figures in a single year. That'll buy a lot of cost cross-country skis. and a lot of aquanauts. Alex Car clocked more than $6 billion. He could effectively corner the entire. You buy all the aquanauts. You could buy them all of them.

Starting point is 00:26:30 100%. I've actually done this before. I've asked chat GPT, like find me the market cap of all the supercars. So you take the average selling price of the F40. It doesn't work this way because once you start buying them up, they get more valuable. But if you take an F40 is like a couple million bucks, but there's only a few thousand of them. you add that up that's like $5 billion market cap. One of the biggest market caps, if you use this kind of rough terminology, is fire trucks.

Starting point is 00:26:56 Because there are a million dollars each, and there's like a million of them in the United States. Now, they're all like slightly different brands, so it's not quite the same comp. F-150s also, huge market cap. Can you look into getting a fire truck for our road shows? I don't think there's enough space inside. Yeah, that's actually true. I think you want something else. But you could load up cables in all the different sides.

Starting point is 00:27:16 like, you know, we pull out the hoses and just a massive H.D. H.D.M.I. Cable. I think that's the move. So, Hawk Tan grew, grew, his pay grew by $1.15 billion at Chipmaker Broadcom. So Broadcom did very well. Only two other S&P 500 CEOs have hit that mark in recent years, according to data from a public company data provider. Cryptocurrencies Exchange, Coinbase Global Brian Armstrong in 2021 at $2.1 billion. Naturally, Elon Musk, the Tesla CEO can boast billion dollar gains in three years, including

Starting point is 00:27:51 a record 43 billion in 2020. Though all are part of a pay package that the Delaware court declared invalid on Sunday, Tesla granted Musk a new interim stock award that tentatively valued, that was tentatively valued at $23.7 billion with the promise of more this fall. Barely scraping by. Scraping by. The other note on Palantir, I think this was reported on Friday. They have a new U.S. Army contract worth up to $10 billion.

Starting point is 00:28:21 So this is consolidating a handful of contracts that they have into a single deal. And, yeah, so pretty significant. That's over, I believe, the next decade. So Palantir Classic 20-year overnight success. Some interesting history and kind of strategy of how they got here. So we talked about this before, but you remember the, famous story about Alex Karp talking to his employees early in the in the in the in the journey of the of the company he said when you're traveling for business I want you to

Starting point is 00:28:59 book a five-star hotel when you're in town visiting a potential client and Gary Tan was commenting on this other employees were saying like this we're startup we're burning money this is kind of a crazy thing what's the rationale here and can and Karp had a very contrarian take. He said that when you're doing business, you're going to meet a Fortune 500 company that you're going to be consulting with or rolling out or selling them Palantir, selling them software. You're going to be a forward deployed engineer. They will ask you, oh, you're in town, where are you staying? It's just a natural thing that comes up during introductions. Oh, you're in town, you're in, you're in Dallas, visiting us at our HQ. We're evaluating Palantir as a potential

Starting point is 00:29:37 solution provider. Where are you staying? And if you say the Holiday Inn, they will assume that you're selling holiday in level software, holiday and quality software. But if you say, I'm saying of the Four Seasons, they will assume that you are selling four seasons level software. And so Palantir had this culture of, Carp has joked about like steak dinners being like not the correct way to sell the product and the product actually has to be very good. But clearly from an early, from from early on Palantir focused on brand positioning and just taking travel and entertainment very seriously because there's going to be a lot of forward-deployed

Starting point is 00:30:16 engineers that are on the road a lot. You want their life to be, you know, manageable so they can go and show up and perform and they're not, and they're not, like, gassed and exhausted from an economy flight and then a tough bet. Holiday end. So, this was wrecking their financial stuff. When they went out and they went public. The narrative was that they were a consulting company masquerading as a software a company. Yep. And looking at the earnings yesterday and their margin profile, this is very clearly

Starting point is 00:30:47 not consulting business. Yeah. So when they went public, you can look up the market cap when they kind of went out early, but I believe that they were languishing in the low tens of billions. Might have even dipped down to $5 billion at some point, $7 billion market cap. The stock was not doing very well. If you bought a single share at the open, you could have paid $9.00. and 20 cents. Yep. And years and years later, you would have been flat. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:17 On that entire period. Yeah. It was, so they went out October 2nd, 2020. And if you look on May 12th, they ticked over that initial price. So not a lot of people were writing it off for a long time. And it still, it didn't, it wasn't like a fast IPO by any means, right? This was like, took them. what, 15-ish years to get out.

Starting point is 00:31:43 So 2020, 2021, they were in like the 40 billion, 35 billion. I think they probably dipped lower at a very, at varying points in time. But it wasn't, the stock was not ripping and it was kind of in this, it was languishing. The consulting meme was going strong and that was because they were spending a ton on travel and entertainment. But what's interesting is what happened during COVID. So during COVID, they couldn't travel as much, and companies didn't want forward-deployed engineers coming into their offices. They didn't, like, airlines were shut down for a long time. Everyone was working remotely.

Starting point is 00:32:23 So they switched to a remote first, you know, forward-deployed engineer strategy. And so by default, during an implementation of Palantir, you would just hop on a Zoom call or hop on a team's call or whatever. And so their travel and entertainment budget like cratered. And that was really, really good for their bottom line. And then they were able to just kind of like hold the line. And they didn't, sure, they added it back slowly. But it kind of revealed that this actually does have software margins. This actually is more of an enterprise SaaS company than a consulting business.

Starting point is 00:32:57 And it allowed them to grow very, very significantly. And so they've been on an absolute tear. And congratulations to everyone over at Palin. Well, while we're talking about earnings... Let's talk about linear. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps.

Starting point is 00:33:15 That's right. Ben and the production team are going to pull up a post from highlighting something from Reddit's Q2 earnings call. If we can pull this up and play this video. Oh, this is a video. That's fun. Okay, let's see. Let's play a video here.

Starting point is 00:33:30 Let's see, this is the hardest thing. That's why Reddit is the number one most cited domain for AI across all models. per data collected by Profound. That's why Reddit is the number one. Anyway, so I wanted to highlight this because we just partner with Profound. This is a company that I invested in earlier this year. James, CEO, has been on the show. Profound allows companies to understand and improve the way they show up in LLMs.

Starting point is 00:33:58 So today companies are using LLMs. Everyone's using LLMs to research products, make business decisions. And so if you're running any type of business, whether it's consumer or enterprise focused, you've got to actually figure out where you stand in these rankings, how people are perceiving your products through the models. And Profound lets you do all of that observability. I think the best way, the best comp for it is kind of like SEO optimization. There's a bunch of different dynamics here. But Profound is the clear leader, and we're super excited to partner with them. Let's hit the gong.

Starting point is 00:34:35 Hit the gong. Fort profound. And a new TBPN sponsor. Welcome to the lineup. Welcome to the livery. Welcome to the next drop of merch. Welcome, profound. We're happy to have you on the team.

Starting point is 00:34:48 Welcome to the show. In other AI-related news, open-a-I has announced an open-source model. They said they'd never do it. Everyone's saying, open-a-line. It was in the name. It was in the name. How could you have doubt it? Closed AI. Closed AI.

Starting point is 00:35:03 They're not open-A-I. their closed AI. Everyone thought they were so clever. They said they couldn't possibly open source a model. And they did. They did it. The unthinkable first open model in years, right? They used to have that was was a GPT one open source like when when was the last time that? So we're going to talk to Tyler about this. I want to say it's GPT2 was still open source and then they decided to close source something. It's tough that I treat you like things that I could Google and I know that you just. have to search it or chat GPT it. But good luck. Get me the information on the history of open AIs, open source models. In the meantime, I will read this post from Sam Altman.

Starting point is 00:35:47 GPT OSS, all lowercase. He's still in lowercase mode, although he uppercases the other sentences, but he threw in. He likes lower case. Is he sending you messages, John? I'm seeing it. I'm seeing coded messages in here. GPTOSS is a big deal.

Starting point is 00:36:06 It's a state-of-the-art open-weight reasoning model with strong real-world performance comparable to 04 Mini that you can run locally on your own computer or phone with the smaller size. We believe this is the best and most usable open model in the world. We're excited to make this model the result of billions of dollars of research

Starting point is 00:36:26 available to the world to get AI into the hands and the most people possible. Hit that soundboard again. I want to keep it going. We believe far more good than bad will come from it. For example, GPTOSS-120B performs about as well as O3 on challenging health issues. We've worked hard to mitigate the most serious safety issues, especially around biosecurity. GPT-O-SS models performed comparably to our frontier models on internal safety benchmarks.

Starting point is 00:36:53 We believe in individual empowerment. Let's hear it for individual empowerment people. I feel empowered the way that you're reading this, John. Although we believe most people will want to use a conventional service, a convenience service like ChatGBT. People should be able to directly control and modify their own AI when they need to. And the privacy benefits are obvious. As part of this, we are quite hopeful that this release will enable new kinds of research and the creation of new kinds of products.

Starting point is 00:37:20 We expect a meaningful uptick in the rate of innovation in our field. And for many more people to do important work than we're able to before. Open AI's mission is to ensure AGI that it benefits all of humanity. To that end, we're excited. I think I cut this screenshot off. We're excited for the world to be building on an open AI stack created in the United States based on democratic values available for, I didn't screenshot the rest of that, but oh, here it is, available for free to all and for wide benefit.

Starting point is 00:37:53 So I imagine that that was the voice that was in his head. As the author intended. Exactly, exactly. Will DePue has some more notes here, some context. So less than one year between 01 announced, which was September of 2024, and we have an 03 level model open sourced that's runnable on consumer hardware. Wild progress. You were highlighting earlier, Sam initially had a poll saying like, you know, should we, should we,

Starting point is 00:38:18 what do you want? Do you want an 03 level model or do you want something that you can run? He did both. And he did both. He did both. Wow. 4D chest. Yeah, so we were reading that.

Starting point is 00:38:28 So it was what, like six months ago or something, that post that you shared? Yeah, I think so. So I asked Tyler to dig this poll up. Sam Altman shared a post that it was a poll on X saying, what do you want? Do you want an 01 level model, reasoning model, a frontier model, open source? Or do you want something you can run on your phone? And it was, and it was neck and people were clicking on the phone model. They were like, we want the phone model.

Starting point is 00:38:54 And then Dylan Patel quoted it and said, oh, you idiots, don't vote for the phone model. You can distill. Let's get a truly frontier model. Let's get a frontier model. And so Dylan Patel was very much like, like, you guys don't know what you want. Like the phone models are available. That will be easy. The hard thing, we got to twist open AI's arm to open source the reasoning model, the O3 level model.

Starting point is 00:39:18 And Sam Oman just said, you wanted this or this. It was a false dichotomy. You get both. You get both. You get both. Yassine says, all caps. I'm so sorry for doubting you, Sam Altman. I'm so sorry for saying that you were the Antichrist.

Starting point is 00:39:30 I didn't realize your plans were measured in centuries. I hope you forgive me for everything. I'm so glad you kept control of Open AI. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. That's remarkable. Never talked out on the future first ballot hall of famer, apparently the future leader of open source AI.

Starting point is 00:39:48 We'll be very interesting to see how meta responds. Will they stay in the open source game? And also just how important is open source? Is this a Linux scale opportunity? Is this an Android scale opportunity? Like is this, you know, is this GitLab to GitHub? Like what's actually the long term play? Certainly cool.

Starting point is 00:40:09 Great for the community. We're going to see fun experiments. We're going to see interesting things done with this. I think do we want to talk about some of the ideas that we had for building on top of this open source model fine-tuning. I can just run through some. I know there was one you didn't want to, you didn't want to share because you thought it was too, too good, too much alpha. But what was it, what was I talking to you about, Tyler? What were our ideas? We had one that was, uh, well, initially we weren't sure there was going to be reasoning. That's right. So we were going to add fake reasoning.

Starting point is 00:40:39 Yeah. So it was going to be a model that gaslights you into thinking it's reasoning when in fact it's not reasoning. So if you pull up, if you look at the actual like, you know, reasoning reasoning you I yeah the it's just you I yeah there's no actual reasoning it's like you it's a time delay it's a time delay and it's delay and then while thinking really hard let me think about this what would a super smart person thing yeah so we can actually still kind of do that because it's not a multimodal model okay but we could like you know we just add some kind of like totally blank encoder or something for the image okay and then it's like this is an interesting image let me think about what's in it yeah

Starting point is 00:41:16 one of the best images I've ever seen a lot of people are saying this this is one the greatest images, thank you for sharing this PNG and or JPEG with me. It just there's nothing about the image. It's great. I'm seeing that this image is large in file size. It's purely metadata based analysis. It doesn't know anything about what's going on. Like, wow, this is a tough question. I'm going to have to generate a lot of internal reasoning tokens to answer this. Test time inferences really is magical, isn't it? Anyway, back to thinking. Okay, I'm reasoning about this now. Yeah. So our initial joke. The other obvious opportunity, you know, people have been frustrated with sycifancy with the models and models being.

Starting point is 00:41:57 Well, not me. I've been frustrated with the lack of sycicivacy. Yeah, you want more. You want more. You want the model to gas you up. But, you know, fine-tuning it to go, you know, over the top. Somebody could release the glazinator 3,000, which just tells the user, you don't, you don't just think you're goaded. You are goaded.

Starting point is 00:42:15 I know this. You know this. It's like, I'm asking you to solve IMO questions. six. Why are you talking about whether or not I'm goaded? It's like it just tells you like you got this one. The timing here. The timing here is interesting. I mean everybody's everybody's been banging the table saying where is the American open source AI or LLM leader? It was reported yesterday by the misinformation that reflection, the misinformation reported that reflection, the misinformation reported that reflection, one-year-old startup, we've had the CEO on,

Starting point is 00:42:52 before he's in talks to raise $1 billion, to develop open-source models to compete with deep-seek, meta, and Ms. Stral. And, yeah, all of the, you know, the Chinese open-source models have been on a tear. Quinn released Quinn Coder recently. Yeah, people are into Quinn. Or a new version of it that is getting good results.

Starting point is 00:43:14 So it's important work. So one interesting thing that's kind of related to the like US China like race is like so so when deep seek first came out Everyone was like up in arms because they said like it's it was less than five million dollars to train right? Yeah So in the in the model card for these models They actually reveal like the GPU hours it took sure which then you can like figure out how much it probably cost cost it to you know train give me the number and tell me if I need to ring the gong for them so so for the big model it was probably around like four million So just yes, but but the small model was like 500k probably a little less. But that's like 10x better.

Starting point is 00:43:53 The model's way better than deep Cgar one. Okay, okay. So I ring the gong. I mean, I think it's I wanted I wanted to hear 400 million at least. I was expecting nine hundred million dollars nine didge. They got a billion of revenue coming in every month. But it's cool that it's 10 days of revenue on the open source model. I you know, no, no, it is very cool.

Starting point is 00:44:15 So so we're ringing the. in the gong for the elegance of the training run. Efficiency. Efficiency. Congratulations. Congratulations. Delivering a great model. Saving time and money.

Starting point is 00:44:28 Putting money back in the hands of shareholders and not in the hands of open source developers, I suppose. But yeah, I mean, do you think that is this like a pre-training scaling wall narrative? Like, like would you as someone who is a potential consumer of an open source model, like, do you want a $400 million open source model? Would that necessarily be better? Because it seems like they were able to distill it pretty well, get it to the frontier, not, you know, burn a ton of money on training. Also, the question is like if they're, this is probably distilled from their other models

Starting point is 00:45:03 that are much bigger. So like, there is no world where you could just spend $4 million and get this level model without also having done the GPT4 run, the GPT4.5 run. etc right yeah maybe it's also just like even if they didn't distill it they just have the knowledge of like how they did it totally like arguably more valuable right yeah yeah yeah so like I think in terms of like open source it's either you'll want to go like super super cheap and super small yes they kind of did here yeah or you go super big like almost like the llama like the heath right yeah

Starting point is 00:45:36 yeah yeah I think it would have been really cool to see that like literally like state-of-the-art you know level model yeah you could also try and ask Claude hey build me a fit to your open source model, don't make mistakes. Yeah, we're gonna have someone from Claude on soon. This is funny because, wait, you said 500K for the small model? Yeah, probably less. So that's the same amount of money that they're putting up for this challenge,

Starting point is 00:46:01 the red teaming challenge. Have you seen this? So to encourage researchers, developers, and enthusiasts, that's me from, from around the world to help identify novel safety issues, this challenge has a $500,000 prize fund that will be awarded based on review from a panel of expert judges from OpenAI and other leading labs. At the end of this challenge, we will publish a report in open source and evaluation data set based on the validated findings so that the wider community can immediately benefit. So if you can hack this thing, if you can get it to teach you how to develop a nuclear bomb

Starting point is 00:46:36 or take over the world, you might have 500K in your pocket. Not bad. Go get some of that. That's a seed round in 20. 2012 massive day for the labs Anthropic announced a state-of-the-art coding model Claude Opus 4.1 which one ups 4-0 we are having somebody on the show from Anthropic later today Alex Albert cool to break all that down so I'll wait there and then Google also announced genie 3 a new frontier model a new

Starting point is 00:47:12 frontier for world models yeah Tyler, take us through Genie 3. What is it? Where are we in the deployment of this particular technology? Let me give a little bit more context on Jeannie. So given a techsprone, Genie 3 can generate dynamic worlds that you can navigate in real time at 24 frames per second, retaining consistency for a few minutes at a resolution of 720p. I got to be up at 60 frames a second if I'm pulling a no scope.

Starting point is 00:47:40 24. This isn't a 24 movie. This isn't a, this isn't cinema. This is video gaming. Get it up at 120 frames. I got to be on 144 hertz monitor. Yeah. So, uh, Google, deep mind.

Starting point is 00:47:52 Yeah. As soon as John can 360 no scope at 60. You got a customer, but for now. You got a customer, but I'm out. I keep pushing it. Uh, yeah, bring it down. What is this and, and where to come from? Why is this important?

Starting point is 00:48:04 Yeah. So I thought this was really cool. I mean, we're into it. We've seen kind of like worse versions of this. It's not like a completely new paradigm of like basically, um, you know real-time video that you can control yep um oliver cameron came on the show yeah uh he was at uh cruise self-driving i interviewed him years ago he came on the show and he demoed this and the production team was kind of freaking out because it was like this very trippy

Starting point is 00:48:27 like wandering around this like kind of uh elder scrolls landscape basically video we've seen the same thing with um i remember playing like a minecraft yeah minecraft people have figured out how to do etched has a Minecraft demo too that runs very quickly on some of their hardware um yeah but it's just Just like, I mean, if you watch the videos, it's like incredible. Like it looks, I think it looks by far better. This looks way better. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:49 Okay. So we're now in like, where like video generation was really, really crazy. And then V-O-3 came out and it was like, oh, it's good. And same thing with like mid-Journey. It's definitely getting to the point where like you could use this for training as like an RL thing, right? Because this is like kind of, I mean, this is how you like justify spending a huge amount on this stuff. Because then you can use that as like training data. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:11 Right for agents or whatever robotics. Synthetic data generation for robots. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. What else? I mean, there is like the long term of like, you know, people do just enjoy watching AI generated videos. People get joy out of looking through Studio Ghibli's for a few days.

Starting point is 00:49:31 So like there is value just in the inherent product aside from training. So you could imagine that this becomes like a game that someone. Let's pull up some of the examples. I have them in the timeline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's pull these up and try and flip through those. But how far are we from like the actual game mechanics when we played Oliver Cameron's one? I remember being able to move around with the arrow keys.

Starting point is 00:49:55 That was cool. Next thing I wanted to do is I wanted to jump everywhere because that's like the default mechanic. I mean, anyone who's played any game like with a jump button, you're jumping the entire time, you're bunny hopping. Like this is not something you just wander around in. And so does it have a jump button? Do you know?

Starting point is 00:50:11 I don't think it does right now. Wow, we're so far. We're so early. But you can, I mean, it's cool because I actually don't remember this exact one you're talking about, but you can prompt like all sorts of stuff, right? So in the examples that we can probably pull up, you can see them prompt in like, okay, a dragon flies in and they're in some like random, yeah. Okay, yeah, let's take a look at this here.

Starting point is 00:50:31 Okay, so it's a bunch of, this looks like an after-effects. Each one of these is an interactive environment generated by Genie 3, a new frontier for world models. world models. Mm-hmm. With Genie 3, you can use natural language to generate a variety of worlds. Did they make this demo for us? Yeah. All with a single text prompt.

Starting point is 00:50:49 Oh, too. I wanted to take the horse off the, off the ski jump. So we're looking through a helicopter. Let's see what it's like is for sure photo reel. Like, this is good enough. Genie 3 has real-time interactivity, meaning that the environment reacts to your movements and actions. You're not walking through a pre-built simulation. Everything you see here is being generated live as you explore it

Starting point is 00:51:13 And jump, jump, jump, press space bar. 360 knows go. Hey, 360. We just got a 360. World memory even carries over into your actions. This is, that's AI? That's wild. Okay.

Starting point is 00:51:26 When I'm painting on this wall, my actions persist. Whoa, okay, that's pretty good. That's way less hallucinatory. But when I look back and it's consistent. So it remembers that. Oh, that's big. Yeah, that's huge. We haven't seen that.

Starting point is 00:51:41 Yeah, because when we were walking around in the other world, we would like turn around and they would just be like a cave and then you do a 360 and all of a sudden it's like, it's like a church or something. Jetsky. Horses. I love me. There's a dragon.

Starting point is 00:51:53 Yeah, that dragon looks pretty good. You can use genie to explore real world physics and movement. I wonder how expensive this is. This will probably be extremely gated. I'll have to beg Logan to get me access. And even other characters. Oh, there we go, that's a job. That's really, oh, okay, that's really cool.

Starting point is 00:52:13 Yeah. And that's just the beginning. Yeah. Worlds can help with embodied research, training robotic agents before working in the real world. Okay, give me a top-down simulation of World War I. I want to play parts of iron. Now, give me a spreadsheet. I want to play Stalaris or Eve online.

Starting point is 00:52:33 Think about some of the use cases here. Spread sheets in space. Some of the use cases here. are insane. Yeah. All right, we can pause it now. You can imagine a world in the future where you give Jeannie some images of you, like, with family growing up when you were five, and you could just, like, be, like, have a third,

Starting point is 00:52:52 like, you could just like, Very trippy. Generate, like, a synthetic memory. Yeah. Like, this is where we're headed, where people are going to be having to kind of simultaneously hold their real memories and these sort of, like, simulated, like, Wow, it's just like, I put on my VR head, so it's just like Christmas. No, super VR sick.

Starting point is 00:53:10 I'm throwing up everywhere. Just like when I was a four-year-old and they ate too much candy on Christmas. It's very realistic. I think this would be really cool for Lama to do, or for META to do some kind of similar thing that you can run on to VR. What do you think the training data set for this is?

Starting point is 00:53:24 Do you think this is YouTube gated? It's got to be YouTube and it's also probably just like video games. I mean, you can see, so if you look at the old, this is Genie 3. If you look at the first papers, it's very clearly like, okay, that looks exactly. like, you know, GTA 5. Oh, really?

Starting point is 00:53:41 And the first one, it's like some kind of very simple, like, 2D game that you can tell, like, okay, that's a video game that they either built or found somewhere that they trained on. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like the pulling from the different video games would be cool. I wonder if you run into IP because you're basically like distilling GTA into a model. Probably not okay. But you blend them all together. You create something new.

Starting point is 00:54:05 That's probably transformative and fair use. But I keep wondering, I was running the numbers and I think YouTube has like 20 xabytes of data, which is 20 million gigabytes or something, or 20 million terabytes or something like that. It's like, it's so much that you can't exfiltrate it. You can't put it in a suitcase of hard drives. It is just the storage is like a data center of its own, like, as opposed to like the, the, uh, common crawl, all the web text is like, it's like you can put it in a server rack. Like it's not that much data. And same thing with like some of those image data sets.

Starting point is 00:54:48 And I always wonder like, does Google have like a permanent advantage here or will we see the other labs catch up on this pretty quickly? Like open AI seem to have caught up pretty quickly in image generation. Mid Journey is doing great there. But a lot of the images are out on the open web, whereas a lot of videos are locked in YouTube and like if you can't get access to, if scale really matters there, Google has like a serious,

Starting point is 00:55:12 serious. Yeah, I mean, they have SORA, which is like, it's kind of very slow. Like the architecture is definitely different than what do you've seen from Google? I don't even care about the speed of Sora.

Starting point is 00:55:21 I care about the fidelity. So Sora, the latest Sora feels like V-O-2 and V-O-3 feels like a full step. I've put the same prompt in both, and Sora is like way more hallucinatory. Like, it's way crazy. V-O-3 still hallucinates and does like,

Starting point is 00:55:37 crazy things where like you'll be watching a car drive forward and then all of a sudden it flips around it looks like the car's driving backwards like it gets confused but just the visual fidelity is really really high done that in real life yeah yeah yeah flip flip the car on uh anyway get on numeral hq sales tax on autopilot spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance numeral hq.com um anyway we have a post here from close so so so investments How do you not know how to pronounce Cloussau? Do you know Inspector Cloussoe? No.

Starting point is 00:56:10 No. No. Lour. Is he French? It's actually I'm going to blank and I'm going to look really embarrassing now because I was trying to mock a mock you. Fictional character. The Pink Panther. That's right.

Starting point is 00:56:21 Yeah. Movie? Is that a movie? It has been adapted into a movie. It was originally, I think, an animated show. Okay. So not, not my. You don't know what the Pink Panther themes are?

Starting point is 00:56:31 Dunna. Dunna. Dunna. Dada da da da da da the guys. It's coming back. It was real. So investment says, I haven't done it yet, but I really want a short Uber. In New York City, there's a taxi app called Empower, which charges drivers a flat fee.

Starting point is 00:56:44 In exchange, takes 0% of the ride costs all of it goes to the driver. If you're in NYC, I encourage you to try it. I've been using it for two weeks now, and every ride is 30% cheaper than Lyft and 40% cheaper than Uber. LGA to Manhattan is around $25, sometimes 50 to 75, depending on Uber or Lyft. I think Uber should be in the cash generation phase, but they somehow flush the $25 to $30, make a ride doing literally nothing down the drain, bold statement. There will always be a market for Uber because some people value their time at a thousand an hour, but for most people like me,

Starting point is 00:57:15 waiting two minutes instead of one to save $30 is worth it. I still do not understand what the engineers at Uber, PayPal, et cetera, do because it seems like the marginal improvements they make are not worth their cost. Anyways, maybe I can sell a call on Uber or something because despite Uber and Lyft using lobbyists and dirty tricks to try to stifle competition, eventually instead of pocketing $30 from a $65 ride and giving the cab driver 35. Someone like Empower will catch on and charge 40 and give it all to the drive. Give it all to the drive. All to the driver and Uber.

Starting point is 00:57:47 Anyways, type of. But I think the interesting thing here is like I can easily see something like Empower working in New York City. Yep. Can't imagine it. Yeah, high density environments where there's a lot of taxi cabs. Yep. I just think in the, I've never seen a taxi cab. 10 square miles around my house once.

Starting point is 00:58:07 And the question is like even if the model works, if they're not taking a cut, then they don't have money to invest in onboarding both sides of the two-sided marketplace. And so the question of like, why did Uber and Lyft burn so much money? Well, it's because they were running insane amounts of ads convincing everyone to be an Uber and Lyft driver. And so they created, they brought all this liquidity to the market.

Starting point is 00:58:32 And New York City has had a few of these competitors. There was another one for a while. There was one that was owned by the taxi. There's been a few. Some of the major. And yeah, I mean, it's very clear that like certain markets are gonna have, you know, different ways to slice it.

Starting point is 00:58:48 You go to some markets and I mean, when we were, I think we were in New York City, right? And Uber had clearly lost some fight with JFK because it was like, oh, if you wanna take an Uber, just like get in a taxi cab, drive 10 miles, and that's the Uber pickup zone. And it's like, what? Like the Uber used to just come directly to the exit and act like a normal person.

Starting point is 00:59:09 But same thing with LAX. Yeah, LAX is LAX. You have to call it black. Which just makes sense because it was really congested and it was kind of crazy. And it was like actually probably net worse for everyone. I think a bigger point here is just what is why is the company not generating obscene amounts of cash when their when their margins feel like they should be able to produce. we're going to be having David Risher from Lyft and CEO of Lyfton, I think, later this week, post earnings. A bunch of questions for him around autonomous vehicles, and we can maybe bring up this post as well.

Starting point is 00:59:47 We'll see, yeah, see the rebuttal. Well, let's tell you about Finn AI, the number one AI agent for customer service, number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bakeoffs, number one ranking on G2. That's right. Go to fin.com.A.I. to get started. Take him has a great post here from Jeffries. Apparently, this looks like it was in some deck from Jeffrey. This is hilarious. Like memes are, I've seen memes in VC decks.

Starting point is 01:00:13 Like, oh, we're doing a quarterly update on the market and somebody throws a meme in there. Jeffries is a very serious investment bank and they're throwing an AI generated image. It says a lot. You see the source? Source co-pilot. You know what that means? So they made it? The AI image generation they used is from Microsoft.

Starting point is 01:00:31 copilot everyone thinks oh everyone uses chat GPT not Jeffries they use copilot because this is an Excel shop that's right hands off the hands off the mouse when you're prompting in copilot to be a Jeffries associate generating this but it's a funny meme because Azure and GCP are dancing meanwhile AWS is a sad puppy in the corner you know we talked about this with a WS like sort of lagging not having a strong you know horse in the AI race Google obviously has a fantastic foundation model lab Azure obviously is the open AI bet and is growing like crazy through the ad-d-a-d-course amazon has has anthropic they do yeah the work they're

Starting point is 01:01:14 doing with the tpU there somebody was saying that like tranium is is underperforming or people don't like trainium as much they prefer just give me a ton of a ton of invidia GPUs um but you know who knows never count out the goat the man who invented the cloud the cloud cowboy Andy jassy The man himself. I mean, truly in the age of like AWS being the most important driver for Amazon as a whole, like the perfect person to run the business at Andy Jassy, right? Because he created it. So they're in a pretty good spot.

Starting point is 01:01:42 We have a post here from Joe Wisenthal, flying first class on my flight out of New York City. I was a little bit surprised here. I expected him. I expected Joe to be flying private. He says, everyone in the front is solo, quiet, and isolated. I look back to the rest of the plane. People are joyously traveling with friends and family, sharing humor. an adventure was just an interesting observation well i mean i understand why i understand why people

Starting point is 01:02:05 in the front are solo quiet and isolated because uh first class flights have become extremely draconian yeah they really have terrible we we should share our experience so we we flew a mixture of first class and an economy to new york city uh with with our lovely team and crew and uh jordy were jordy and i were up in first class and uh were served we were flying uh Should we name? Yeah, we're going to name him. We're going to name him. We're flying.

Starting point is 01:02:34 We were flying JetBlue Mint. Which historically, I've had great experiences with Mint over the years. David SEPA was singing their praises, said it was the best first class experience he's ever enjoyed and said it was fantastic. But we had quite. At times, it's been fantastic. We had quite a different experience. This was devastating. Let's run through our problems.

Starting point is 01:02:53 So the seat was comfortable. Lay flat. It was great. You didn't think it was comfortable? I thought it was great. The fall off is real. Everything about the experience is degraded over the last couple of years. You know the worst thing about the lay flat seats?

Starting point is 01:03:04 This is such a me problem, but they're clearly designed. They're like, they're like 99.9% of people will be able to lay down completely flat here. And the seat is six foot six. So I'm two inches short. And so I have to curl up in a little ball. Exactly. Like a child. Yes.

Starting point is 01:03:22 Well, it gets worse. It gets worse. That was just the beginning of our nightmare. I ordered steak. and I wasn't hungry. Yes. So, of course, as soon as the flight attendant left, I got up and I walked the steak dinner back, and I gave it to Michael and Scott.

Starting point is 01:03:41 Yeah. And then I went back to my seat. Yeah. And I was just relaxing. And the flight attendant came up to me in a little bit later and said, would you like dessert? We're serving gelato, I think it was. I said, I would love gelato. Thank you.

Starting point is 01:03:54 And the flight attendant went back to the front. I ran to the back, and I started. handing the gelato to Michael and a hand jumped into frame and grabbed the gelato. Grab the gelato out of my hands and said, you cannot do that. And of course, there's a rule that says you can't pass food between cannons. But I was just shocked because I was shocked. Possession is nine-tenths of the law. Once I take possession of the steak, it's mine to do what I want with.

Starting point is 01:04:25 I think I should be able to distribute the steak evenly amongst the entire First class cabin. I should be able to auction it off. It's mine. I should be able to resell it in a secondary market. Whatever I want to do with that. Yeah, there should be a stock expert. Either you gave it to me.

Starting point is 01:04:37 Yes, yes, this is what we're going to do. We're going to start. We're going to vibe code an app that allows you to sell first class meals to economy customers and it runs on the JetBlue Wi-Fi. Okay. So credit to the flight attendant. Yes. It could be annoying if I'm distributing the plates and the forks and the things like that around the plane.

Starting point is 01:04:57 It's annoying. Maybe it's, it's, um, it's, it's frustrating to the other other other clientele. Sure. But I was more on your side. So anyways, I brought the gelato back to the front. I gave it to you. You ate it.

Starting point is 01:05:08 You enjoyed it. Yeah, it was great. But then after that, we looked, we did a quick deep dive on JetBlue. And I got very concerned because JetBlue. Nothing more shocking than. So the real shocker is. In a metal tube at 30,000 feet and realizing you're flying a penny stock. Basically.

Starting point is 01:05:27 So JetBlue is now trading at... What's the ratio between just like... I was just going to say their market... Is it bigger than perplexity? Because I feel like perplexity is like pretty solid business. They're over ten times smaller than perplexity. Yes. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 01:05:45 Yes. Okay. And their entire market cap is less than Miramirati seed round. Wow. And so usually if I was going to get in a tube, a metal tube, and fly thousands of miles... I would trust Mira for sure. I would, you know, I'm starting to think, you know, optimize for market cap a little bit more on the provider.

Starting point is 01:06:07 But yeah, anyways. Joanna, CEO, welcome to come on anytime. Get down to the TBP and all the gentleman. Defend your first class policies. I was talking to the flight attendant and I said, I'd like to speak to the manager. I'd like to debate the manager because I don't think, I'd like to debate the manager. You don't want to speak to the manager. You want to debate the manager because they have rules.

Starting point is 01:06:32 They're going to pull out some rulebook. I want to go a level deeper. I want to go from first principles. Why do those rules exist? I was thinking, you know that company pipe dream? Yep. They make tubes that run underground that you can transport goods. I was thinking if you could create some type of advanced straw that you could run from first class, put it.

Starting point is 01:06:51 Yes. Run it on the side and then run it back like telescopically. Yes. Like back to your boys in the back. And then just feed them and use like high pressure air to feed them little bites of steak. Yes, yes, yes. And so you could do this. Yes.

Starting point is 01:07:05 You could do this without anyone, potentially anyone knowing about it. Yeah. Passing back scraps to your boys is like the, it's so American. I was deeply offended. And then it got worse because the flight attendant kept bringing different trays of snacks. And I remember when they brought the one tray of snacks? They're like, do you want any of these? This was after the, after the steak debacle.

Starting point is 01:07:26 and we start taking them and we're clearly taking more and more than we need. Just give us the entire try. And I asked specifically, I was like, can I bring these back to my friends? And she said technically yes. Because they were for the whole cabin.

Starting point is 01:07:43 These snacks are cabin wide. But then less than 10 minutes later, she brought some nuts that looked very nice. And she said, you cannot pass the nuts back. But you can pass the chips back. Anyways, very, very frustrating. Yeah, it was brutal.

Starting point is 01:08:00 It was brutal. Anyway, we had some fun. Ben definitely said at one point, you know, we're flying with like 10 people. Shouldn't we just, shouldn't we just charter a jet? And he made a good point. Yeah, I made a good point. Well, you will have to get on Adio. Customer relationship magic.

Starting point is 01:08:16 Adio is the AI Native Suram that builds scales and grows your company to the next level. You get started for free at Adio. Kevin Kwok has a screenshot from LinkedIn. He braved LinkedIn to bring us this. He says, this is the funniest LinkedIn title from now on. People should only use LinkedIn like this. That's great. And Peter Sellis over at Discord in the title of his LinkedIn that says,

Starting point is 01:08:40 I have full purchasing authority over Discord's extremely large and lucrative cloud contracts, and I am presently leading their renegotiation. Basically putting up a billboard. Just getting exactly what you want. I want to talk to the most senior person possible. at every hyperscaler. Take me seriously. Great.

Starting point is 01:09:00 His username on LinkedIn is disgruntled. Disgruntled. And his title, if you go to the experience section, is personality higher. Prior to this, he was vice president of product at Snap. So, good stuff. University of Chicago. Come on the show, Peter. He's connected to a live option.

Starting point is 01:09:22 Orrin Hoffman's connected to him. Orin's been on the show a couple times. We should do a live auction with the hyperscalers. And you should get on public.com investing for those that take it seriously, multi-asset investing, industry-leading yields, trusted by millions. Is Discord out yet? No. They're about to go public, right?

Starting point is 01:09:39 That seems to be the story. I haven't been following too close, but the founder was removed. Yeah, I know Deline was saying like it was the wrong move. But regardless, love Jason and what he's built. Fantastic. One of the coolest founder stories went to a, a college for like video game design I believe started an app sold that and then was building a video game built a League of Legends for your phone like a MoBA and took that

Starting point is 01:10:04 to TechCrunch disrupt and was demoing it was just like super into the gaming world eventually got lucky with Discord and found the correct product market that scaled the the moon put the KPI's in the orbit the building games to building dominant messaging platforms pipeline undefeated Slack Discord Paracletes in the chat says, what kind of country is this? We can't even pass back little stakes to our boys. I know. I agree.

Starting point is 01:10:30 He also says that I love Adia. Thank you. Welcome to the same way. Good to have you here. Good to have you. Let's talk about Scott Wu. There was a report about cognition. He is replying or kind of sub-tweeting the coverage.

Starting point is 01:10:45 Basically, 30 out of the 200 people that were acquired from windsurf got laid off. And then the rest got buyout offer if you're not interested in staying on the boat you're on a go ship now you're on the titanic no not the titanic you're on the you're on the you're on the carnival carnal cruises it's uh it's a destroyer yeah you're on a battleship you're on a battleship and uh everyone's got to be pulling in the same direction everyone's got to be hoisting the sails on this galleon uh and so scott woo says people have asked about our culture and recent employee communications cognition has an extremely performance culture and we're up front about this is Scott Woo's

Starting point is 01:11:25 this is my Scott Wu impression we are routinely at the office through the weekend and do some of our best work late into the night many of us literally live where we work that's true they have a house in in Silicon Valley somewhere and they a bunch of them live there we know that people who joined windsurf didn't expect to join cognition and we're proud of how we work we understand it's not for everyone We gave our team the opportunity to decide. We offered for all employees who joined via acquisition to opt into our culture with full clarity on what that entails. We know that we will lose some strong talent in doing this, but we truly believe the level of intensity this moment demands from us is unprecedented.

Starting point is 01:12:07 While not everyone is looking for a culture like ours, everyone deserves respect and appreciation for their work. Regardless of their decision, we accelerated and cashed out all four years of equity for everyone. a windsurf, even for the 85% of employees who didn't hit their one-year cliff. And for those who opt out, we're providing an additional nine months of pay on top of this. This is just good guy, Scott. He's just doing everything right. He's setting the bar high. He's letting people know, hey, we take this really seriously.

Starting point is 01:12:36 We just don't want there to be a culture clash. Look, we took care of you. If you got, if you, if you just went from almost acquisition from Open AI, ended up on the go ship through the Google deal. ended up at Cognition, got all your, got the full upside from the deal. Yeah. Even if you had invested. And then now you're at Cognition and realize, I don't want to work as hard as everyone else here.

Starting point is 01:13:00 Yeah. And you get the opportunity, you get nine months of pay to just walk away. Yeah. That person is, there's going to be some people in that group that are. Totally. I mean, it's not, it's not like the norm, but there are definitely people who are like, I was actually excited to rest and best. I was actually excited to hit the ping pong people, you know?

Starting point is 01:13:18 I wanted to just be on the beanbag chair for a while, and I wanted to kind of cruise and have, like, a normal nine to five. Like, there are people who, who, like, that's what they, maybe they, maybe they, maybe they're, this was their third startup. They already got some liquidity. They're doing great. And they have a family. And they're, you know, they want to be a little bit more flexible, take more time off. And like, that's the beauty of, you know, the American labor market is you can kind of choose and pick your own adventure. But that, you know, Scott wants to create a cohesive team, a cohesive culture.

Starting point is 01:13:47 He doesn't want this idea. It's very tough when half the team is staying up really late grinding and they love it. And then the other half is like, I'm dipping out early. It's just awkward for everyone. It's just awkward for everyone. So he's just saying, hey, like you're welcome to stay on the team. But you got to buy in or you got to bounce and go, you know, take your, take your liquidity from the accelerated investing you got. Take the nine months of extra pay and go find something that actually brings you joy.

Starting point is 01:14:16 go do your life's work. So I think this is well managed. It seems like the comms leaked prior to this. I don't know. I don't know. Would it have been better if you posted this beforehand and just kind of own the narrative? Maybe that would be the move because you kind of know that people will frame this poorly. And so you get out and say, hey, I'm going founder mode. I'm offering this buyout offer. Because there are plenty of companies that have done these buyout offers before. I believe that there's one major company. I forget which one that has a standing offer at 24-7 every single day. Like it doesn't matter if you just joined I mean of course you can't just like join and leave

Starting point is 01:14:50 immediately and get the buyout offer But basically like you if you hit a cliff And they're like we'll re-up you we'll keep you incentivized We're gonna keep paying you But like the buyout offer is always there For you to take some cash Go figure out what's next Find a better fit because we just don't want people

Starting point is 01:15:06 Who are just like hanging on to this job Because they are like just hesitant about going somewhere else When they should just figure out the next thing Yeah Anyway you don't want to be losing sleep, get a pot five ultra. Go to 8Sleep.com. Five-year warranty, 30-night rest of trial, free returns, free shipping.

Starting point is 01:15:23 I got a great night's sleep. I slept for eight hours last night, and I think it's showing. Didn't you say eight and a half? Something like that. You put up some crazy numbers. I got a 95 last month. I've been down in the dumps. I had a 45 Sunday night.

Starting point is 01:15:34 No, you're back in the game. The energy's coming through. And you can feel it in the intro. Your sleep is great. Sleep for you is inversely correlated with your voice. Yeah. The more sleep you get, the more horse you will get from screaming into the microphone. You can tell my sleep score by the intro.

Starting point is 01:15:52 Yes, exactly. Scookes says after they put GLP-1s in the water, being obese will be back in vogue, a sign of indomitable vitality and enormous wealth. This is not obese. This man is not obese. He is prosperous. Prosperous and prosperity should be celebrated. Yep.

Starting point is 01:16:08 Love the cane too. It's a wild build to run. Our next move, bring back Cains. Cains, smart Cains. it's going to happen. A lot of battery life in a cane. Plenty room for a ton of batteries. A lot that you can do with a cane.

Starting point is 01:16:20 On device inference, GPTOSS, run it on the cane. Run it on the cane. That's really the ultimate status. Does Nvidia make a narrow 4090, like a GPU that could be put in? Maybe we just need to string together a bunch of iPhone chips. I really think building a smart cane might be a challenge. I don't know if you can. I mean, I guess the chip is.

Starting point is 01:16:45 the iPhone is probably small enough to fit in the cane, but you'd have to figure, it might be, it might have a thick part to the cane. Well, yeah, you could make a very wide cane, right? Almost like an elephant's, you know, like. That seems like not the vision I'm going for with the cane. I want an aesthetic cane. I want a cane that, that it doesn't jump out of anyone.

Starting point is 01:17:04 You doubt, well. Doesn't jump out of anyone. We'll put Tyler on it. Tyler, just try to make one by the end of the show. Yeah, build us smart cane using open source LLMs, please. Thank you. And then when you launch the can, buy a billboard for it on ad quick.com.

Starting point is 01:17:17 Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising. Only ad quick combines technology, out of home expertise and data to enable efficient, zeemless ad buying across the globe. One of our billboards was taken. One of our billboards was taken down this morning. Was that by a, after a good run?

Starting point is 01:17:35 By a state actor, do we think? Probably. Probably some type of nation state hacker group. Or was it a false flag? You'll never know. Zach Pogrob noticed that it had been taken down. I was very disappointed. So working on getting more up, Zach, we're on it.

Starting point is 01:17:54 Maybe SF next time. Maybe, I don't know where else we should go. Probably Santrape. That makes sense for a billboard. Abilene. Abilene would be good. Abilene would actually be great. Abilene would be the way.

Starting point is 01:18:08 Audience of one. I just want Chase and Sam to see it, basically. audience in two. There's also a lot of people at Abilene that are just getting into data center. The billboard in Abilene should just say, it shouldn't even say listen to TV. It should say, come on TBPN. Call into TBPN. Sam, call into TBPN.

Starting point is 01:18:27 We'd love to chat with you. If we put that up, I think we get him. Okay, he'll of course come on the show. Welcome to Data Center USA. Yes. Yes. Congratulations. Saga and Jetty says, I can't help but love every iteration of the moon swatch.

Starting point is 01:18:42 Yes. What do you think of this? Collaboration between Omega and Swatch. Is that the same company? Does Swatch Group own Omega? Omega. I always listen to the James Bond pronunciation, the Daniel Craig. He says, Omega.

Starting point is 01:18:56 Does Swatch Group own... Anyway, it looks nice. History of the Moon Swatch. The Moon Watch was an Omega. It was worn by the astronauts. Same company. Same company. Same company.

Starting point is 01:19:09 Very big, very big company. So if you're not familiar with the moon watch, there was a knockout, dragout fight. It was like the AI Talent Wars all over again in the 1960s to decide which company would send the watch to the moon on the wrist of the astronauts. Everyone expected it to be Rolex. Omega won the contract. The Omega Moon Watch went to space, went to the moon, and came back and now is a celebrated timepiece. The ones that went to the moon are obviously in museums. and the models from that year traded a very high premium, but they issue new moon watches regularly.

Starting point is 01:19:46 And the moon's watch is something that's a little bit more, I think, affordable, certainly more rugged and has a nice fabric strap. We'll release Saturday, August 9th, and it's priced at $400. Oh, okay. And if you're looking for your own watch, go to getbezzle.com. Your bezel concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch, you can get an Omega. you can get something worn by Mark Andreessen.

Starting point is 01:20:12 He's an Omega guy. Yeah, we clock that. We clock that early. Came out with an interview. We were expecting. What's on the wrist? Yeah, we were expecting a graft diamond hallucination. Maybe four of them, ideally.

Starting point is 01:20:24 But, you know, he went with the budget option. Yeah. But we'll get him. He's coming on the show, I believe, tomorrow. And we will pitch him on picking up a couple of graph diamond solutions with the pennies in his couch cushion. He's got a lot of real estate. Everybody's got a lot of real estate.

Starting point is 01:20:39 A lot of people, I don't know what's up with people just wearing one watch, especially allocators, his caliber, right? Why stop at one? You've seen a couple of people that wear a watch and then the whoop band or a watch and then an Apple watch or something, but why not for Daytona's? Anyway, something there. Congratulations to Joe Wisenthal. Again, on the absolute run, Oddlots is the number one business podcast in the world

Starting point is 01:21:04 and the number six podcast in the world. after cold-blooded from ABC News and crime junkie and the Joe Rogan experience is sitting at number three. Mick unplugged leadership because growth, which I'm not familiar with, is number four, and the daily from the New York Times is at five. And to be clear, this is not because we are, our episodes of Odd Lots release yesterday,

Starting point is 01:21:30 it is because they got a profile, a glowing profile in the New York Times on Sunday. Yes. They're on a junk. generational run. We love to see it. Yeah, and Joe said the business category of the Apple charts is very funny. It is funny because money rehab, Andy Frisela, real AF, like a lot of, like, I think Jacco Willink is in the business category and it's very different than the odd lots stuff.

Starting point is 01:21:56 Like odd lots is like, let's talk to an expert on the grain market. Like, let's see what's going on. One of these is not like the yield curve. Yeah. And it's very much listened to by by hedge fund. and capital allocators and a lot of these other podcasts are listened to more by lifestyle entrepreneurs and small business folks and they and obviously that's a much larger audience much larger addressable audience but it's good to see odd lots on an absolute tear and joe says okay

Starting point is 01:22:24 gonna stop with self-congratulations but fun to be number one for what will be a brief moment surreal week also one last thing if anyone knows how i can parlay my 15 minutes into throwing out the first pitch at a cyclone game I have no idea what the Cyclones is. Is that some sort of, is that sports of some sort? It's some, I've never heard of this. High A affiliate, the Brooklyn Cyclones. Okay.

Starting point is 01:22:49 High A affiliate of the New York Mets. This is, so this is baseball? Yeah. And that's the one with where you throw the ball and then you hit it with the, is this like a feeder team? This is the one where you throw the ball and you hit it with the bat? And there's like gloves too, right? Well, good luck to Joe throwing out the first pitch.

Starting point is 01:23:06 That would be great to see. good content. Nikita says things that will cause a user to churn. One, friends leave. Two, product stops growing and becomes culturally irrelevant. 998 feed has a bug where it flashes. 99 bookmarks are not searchable. You have to imagine Nikita's DMs are potentially gnarlier than Elon's at the moment of thousands

Starting point is 01:23:30 of his mutuals and friends messaging him every possible bug in the app. I know we would do the same to Chicago. before he left. I mean, I was just talking about this. Like, we don't use the bookmarks feature. We use the shared groups feature to kind of track posts that we want to share on the show. And I was like, oh, I wish I could search it across all of these.

Starting point is 01:23:49 But I was like, I'm literally the only person that wants that. Like, I'm the only person whose entire job and career depends on this one niche feature. And so it's not even worth requesting. I'll just figure out a workaround, hopefully scrape it out of there and then make that searchable or something. because I can work on a workaround. But yeah, fortunately, friends have not left.

Starting point is 01:24:12 And X continues to be culturally relevant. It's where news breaks. And we saw that on full display with the Soham Parikh saga. The entire thing played out on X. Started with a post, wound up with everyone else chiming in on various posts, kind of ended with like us interviewing him live on a stream on X. It was very cool, all within the X ecosystem.

Starting point is 01:24:34 You know, stuff still happens. else where the tech conversation is happening it's entirely it's entirely actually there's no there's no even close second now I do think it's interesting to see I want to get better at understanding like what what is the current thing on Instagram today and where what is the real community that is formed on various other platforms that are adjacent because I know some people that have grown accounts and when I was big on YouTube and really focused on YouTube I would notice things like we were talking to Samir yesterday about like different metas that develop and different

Starting point is 01:25:16 themes and you sometimes these break containment but a lot of times it's just just a story that happens within the YouTube ecosystem somebody posts a video and then there's a reaction to that video there's a whole cycle of news that happens within the YouTube ecosystem. X still feels, you know, if you're generally interested in tech, it feels like a shared experience. Totally. Whereas if you're interested in tech and you're on Instagram, it doesn't feel like you're, you have an feed that feels at all similar to even another friend that's like loosely interested in tech. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:25:49 I'm trying to think on YouTube, the big, the big discourse is always, it's always about YouTube. Like Colin Samir really are at the center of the, of the discourse on. on YouTube. Creator industrial complex. Yeah, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that on YouTube, you have to have a YouTube account and you have to publish a YouTube video to have a voice whatsoever.

Starting point is 01:26:12 Yeah. Like anyone can show up on X and type out 280 characters, go viral and be the main character, be the current thing, start a conversation, engage with that conversation. But the bar on YouTube for having a voice, like the comments section just doesn't rise to the same level as like a reaction video.

Starting point is 01:26:30 And so when, like, when Mr. Beast is embroiled in controversy, there will be other YouTubers. Like there was this, the Mr. Beastification of YouTube, this idea that Mr. Beast had created this meta. And then other YouTubers were copying it. And it was all this like yelling at the camera and fast-paced editing and lots of like in your face, high saturation, graphics popping up, all this different stuff going on. And that entire, that entire news cycle played out on YouTube. and it was because there were commentary channels and cultural and analysis channels that replied essentially.

Starting point is 01:27:07 But instead of it being like a quote tweet dunk, the equivalent is like responding. Another viral video. Another viral video responding to the analysis. So someone put out, so Mr. Beast was on a tear and then other people were copying it and then somebody put out the Mr. Beastification of YouTube which went viral and then other people would respond

Starting point is 01:27:24 to the Mr. Beastification is overstated. Or it's not that big of a deal. Or it's even worse than you thought. And so people will take the conversation in different ways, but it moves much slower because if you're like, yeah, I want to do a reaction video. Okay, see you in a week, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:36 Anyway. Find your happy place. Find your happy place. Book a wonder with inspiring views, hotel great amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning and 24-7 concier service. It's a vacation home, but better. Is that gong new?

Starting point is 01:27:49 This gong is relatively new, a couple months since our new studio. We do have another new gong over there that we haven't, that we haven't actually, showed anyone. We haven't hit on air yet. And we got a completely new gong for the Figma IPO and we had Dylan Field hit it on the day of his IPO. It's game hit. It's a game hit IPO gong.

Starting point is 01:28:08 It will be retired. It will hang in the rafters of the TBPN Ultrodome. And eventually this, eventually this dome will be filled with gongs from historic technology moments. And we're going to give the computer history museum a run for their money. They might have Commodore 64 or whatever. They have the original. like touring machine it's like this it's this computer that you crank it's like the craziest thing and it can do calculations and it's like it's literally no

Starting point is 01:28:37 electronics and it's a computer it's like it's all just like basically like marbles flowing around not really dream rig yeah dream rig imagine posting on that but we're gonna give them a run for our money with our gong collection anyway 11 labs has a new launch today big news we pull this video up so yeah I want to listen to the 11 Labs music. They're saying 11 music is here created with leading labels, publishers, and artists. It lets you craft studio quality tracks with control over genre, style, and language using just text. Built on license catalogs, every song you create is cleared for commercial use. That is pretty insane. I had an eye-opening moment probably two years ago at this

Starting point is 01:29:18 point. One of, I enjoy the music of the rapper Gunna. Sure. And somebody made an entire album. a Gunna album that was entirely AI generated. Was it good? And it was solid. It was solid. It wasn't necessarily, I listened through it a couple times. You could, if you paid it, if you were not paying attention to it, it sounded just like a regular gunna song, album. Did any of those, was it on Spotify?

Starting point is 01:29:46 I think they published on Spotify, but I believe they got it taken down. Did any of those songs migrate over into a playlist? For me, you're saying? No, but I don't think. the casting the cast and would be like it's in your liked feed or it's in your it's in your spotify's in an interesting place here because you're one way to piss off artists oh yeah is allow people to generate AI versions of the same artists yeah artists are losing revenue and yeah i knew a team a friend that was working on on basically Spotify for just

Starting point is 01:30:17 a i generated content they uh ultimately pivoted because they didn't feel like they wanted to withstand decades of lawsuits but it sounds like 11 labs has found a solution here. Let's play this video. Yeah, let's play the video. Let's see what they have to say. Hopefully we don't get copyrights, right, strike.

Starting point is 01:30:35 I think we should not, because this is the first time this music has existed. Okay, so we got some orchestral music. It's pretty epic. I told the founder to make us a WWE theme song, a really aggressive over the top track for us. This is, this is, This is not quite our vibe, but it's nice.

Starting point is 01:31:01 It's nice. Okay, this is definitely past the uncanny valley. Like, this could just be a real song. This is hitting it. I'm digging it. Okay. Let's see. Did they do any gunna?

Starting point is 01:31:21 Okay. Okay, you got some fast-paced. A little elevator coated, but I'm getting a drift. What else we got? Their customers must just love, like, falling asleep. Reggae. This is pretty cool. Give me some heavy metal.

Starting point is 01:31:47 Okay. It's a hip hop. It's a hip hop. I like this one. This is epic. I want this song. I'm sold now. Oh, this is good.

Starting point is 01:32:03 It's hit. That's great. Get me that track. I want to listen to that track. This is a good time to talk about. So last week, the Panama playlist came out. John and I were featured in them. Doxed.

Starting point is 01:32:17 We were targeted by the Panama playlist. If you go to Panama Playlist.com, they basically scraped a bunch of people's Spotify's without them knowing and then published their playlist. I was wondering, I was looking at this playlist and I didn't immediately have a memory of it. The playlist was called No Cap. And I was like, why would I name a playlist that?

Starting point is 01:32:41 And it took me a second to come back to me. It's because I was collecting songs. rap songs with obscure references to venture capital and investing. As one does. As one does. And so if you look at the first song, God did. Clearly for a party round drop that never happened. Never happened.

Starting point is 01:33:00 But first song God did. DJ Caled or one of the other rappers on the track says, I'm at the cap table. What the splits is. Not that cap table. Boy, we live this. And then you have OK, OK. Kanye West.

Starting point is 01:33:15 Price went up, Angel Investor. and anyway, a bunch of other random references, but it's all making sense now. What else we got, John? We got GPT5 news on Polly Market. GPT5 released by August 10th is now sitting at 92%. It was sitting at 75% yesterday earlier this week, 80%. And so by the end of the week, there is a 92%. chance that GPT-5 is released.

Starting point is 01:33:51 And it has mooned recently. Just back on August 3rd, it was sitting at 31% chance. So it has just in two days gone from 31% to over 92%. So people are definitely expecting GPT-5 to be released in the next five days, which should be exciting. I'm sure there'll be lots of coverage, lots to talk about, and we will want to hop on with as many legends, as many legends, as much. many as many medist list AI researchers as possible to get the deep dive.

Starting point is 01:34:25 Absolutely. In other news, Flying Private is the new wealth yardstick. I know our audience is going to want to know about this. We talked about Joe Wisenthall. Is this news? This is news? Is this new news? People hearing about this for the first time?

Starting point is 01:34:39 But I love this because do you know Max tuning? He started a gummy candy business, sour candy business. He sold it to Hershey for 75. million dollars. I just love the name. Max tuning with two X's like a great name. So he was a YouTuber. He started a sour candy business, sour strips, and just grew it and grew it and grew it and wound up selling it for 75 million and did very well. But the first thing he did before buying a Rolex or a dream home was a private jet for his wife and six friends to veil on a desult Falcon 900. They skipped security lines, zipped straight to the runway and seated themselves in leather recliners with gold accents in the wood paneled cabin. the price tag for this adventure, $100,000. Worth every penny. Chooning's Golden Doodle, dude.

Starting point is 01:35:24 This guy is phenomenal with the names. Naming artists. Love it. Sprawled at their feet. The joke is I had to get a private plane so I could bring my dog, the 35-year-old said. I didn't really care what the price was. The ultra-wealthy have always enjoyed flying private. That exclusive club is growing as soaring stocks and crypto prices.

Starting point is 01:35:43 Mint more millionaires and billionaires who now have a range of choices to book a seat on a jet. and you know the best part. He can give the steak to his dog if he wants because he's flying private babies. He doesn't have to deal with the draconian rules of JetBlue Mint. Flying private has become the ultimate luxury splurge for many wealthy individuals, surpassing Ferraris, Hermes, Birkinbags, topping $14,000

Starting point is 01:36:06 or even Waterfront Hampton homes. Why not all the above? Which we recently learned are very interestingly priced where property in the Hamptons is somewhat reasonable, you know, five, ten million dollars might get you in the game, but renting a house in the Hamptons for a single month during the high season, $250,000, right? Something like that. That's what we're seeing.

Starting point is 01:36:27 Very, very expensive. And the rental rates are so extreme because you really only want to be there. You only want to be there during the summer, the hot season. And Emily Sunberg will be out there. For many of those aspiring to join the ranks of the truly rich, having private jet money is the new goal dividing the 1% from the point 1%. The pandemic unleashed a burst of demand and providers say popular culture has turbocharged enthusiasm and envy for the fly private lifestyle.

Starting point is 01:36:58 Social media has given, I mean, Swift's A-10. Zahar in the chat says his friend flies their dog private solo. Well, we talked about on the show earlier, a dog that flies private alone because the owner signed a contract to do the interior design for the private jet, and as part of the deal, their dog gets to fly private. And we were laughing about, one of the worst deals. About what if you want to get to, you know,

Starting point is 01:37:29 New York to Miami, and the dog wants to get to L.A., and you have to do a layover at Van Nuys to get to Miami because the dog has to fly private. But the younger people are getting a glimpse into the, lives of jet setters whether it is a model flying with friends to a bachelorette party in los cavos in mexico or a hedge fund manager hopping a plane for a birthday in st barts realistic expectations are in or in order it's my dream to fly private set a user on a reddit forum for so-called

Starting point is 01:38:02 henries which refers to high earners not rich yet i think that's everyone on our team adding that he earns about $300,000 is married and has a kid in daycare, definitely closer to broke than flying private. Another user responded, mocked. Yet the number of people are rich. The Henry term emerged during the D to C boom. I never heard of that before.

Starting point is 01:38:25 That whole era where a lot of D to C brands were kind of looking at their customers as people that weren't necessarily going head to toe, Laura Piana, but they would, you know, maybe buy, flex up and get, you know, an item or two or buy some away luggage, that whole thing. Buy in a Clydesdale, not a thoroughbred, that type of money. Yeah, something like that. I mean, the rain, I did a deep dive on, like, the horse market recently and the, as one does,

Starting point is 01:38:58 and the spread between the cheapest horse and the most expensive horse is staggering. You can spend millions or you can spend just a couple thousand dollars. So no excuse not to have a horse, one horsepower. What's my, how much power do you need? At least. The U.S. added more than a thousand millionaires every day last year on average, according to UBS.S. The billionaire club grew more than 50% between 2015 and 2024.

Starting point is 01:39:23 Private jet hours flown touched a high in 2022 and then have stayed elevated since, according to data. Travelers can now use apps to snag individual seats on private jets or pay for flights by the hour. Others charter flights paying for just the occasional trip from New York to Miami while there are a rare business moguls who might spring for the entire jet. Some jet providers except payment in crypto. Shrimp cocktails and facials. Ken Ritchie, a pilot and chairman of FlexJet, a private company said the frugal wealthy, high earners who don't typically splurge, started spending big on travel during the pandemic because of health concerns.

Starting point is 01:39:59 Many of them have found it tough to go back to flying commercially. Yeah, because of the JetBlue rules. we know this, and years of economic growth have helped ease the stigma around conspicuous consumption that's set in after the financial crisis. It's in vogue to be wealthy, he said. Sometimes we love the rich, sometimes we hate the rich. It isn't just avoiding the security line or the Hoy-Poloi. Flying private means trading Biskopf cookies, which were also given to us on the JetBlue

Starting point is 01:40:24 Flight, for freshly baked ones and packing lunch with such items as shrimp cocktail and filet mignon from menus spanning a dozen pages. Chef Nobu Matsu Hisha crafted a menu for Vista jet that includes miso-samen. Some cabin hosts are trained to give travelers' facials 40,000 feet above the ground with Dr. Barbara Sturham's line of luxury skin care. Very nice. Anyway, fly private. Stop making excuses.

Starting point is 01:40:56 We had a breaking news. Tyler, actually. I made us a surprise. song on 11 labs. Okay, Brayne. Yeah, yeah, can we play it on the stream? I think so. I think we have set up. Let's hear the song. W.W.E. style and code where pitches rain and valuations

Starting point is 01:41:11 grow. Brace for the venture showdown. Let's go. Wired for disruption. Seed rounds. Is this like a rap? This is not how W.W.E works. I don't really know. I'm not into this. No. Go do some

Starting point is 01:41:28 research. Go do some research. Shut down. Shut down. Shut down by John. No, no, no. The whole point of the W.W.E. intro is that, is that it has no words. It's purely instrumental. Oh, okay. So look up, look up some W.W.E. intros because it's meant for the announcers to speak over it.

Starting point is 01:41:47 And so I'm sure you can just prompt it and say no words. But also like the words are going to be the hardest thing to get right because it's like telling jokes. It's creative writing. It's very, very difficult for the models to get that right. Obviously, amazing work by 11 Labs. loves. Very convincing, but we got to do some work on prompting. This one's. Yeah, go back to it. I don't, I don't want any of that cringe, like, rap. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, yeah. And the, and the abstract, like, chat,

Starting point is 01:42:14 GPT compression of, of the concepts that we talk about. Good effort. Good effort. And impressive that it was able to be turned around so quickly. This isn't something that cooks over night. Before we, before we go into the next story. Yeah. Funny story from earlier this year, we were flying back from a trip. Yeah. and we're joining a buddy, friends of the show on their jet. Yep. And the morning of, it was a super early flight. We didn't text him to remind him that we were coming.

Starting point is 01:42:45 And so we got to the terminal, got on the golf cart. We're driving out to the plane and just watched it take off. No, we didn't watch it take off. It was taxiing. It was taking off. We watched it taxiing. No, no, no, no. It didn't leave the ground.

Starting point is 01:43:03 Oh, we got out of view from it, so I thought it left the ground. No, no, I didn't leave the ground. But it was running down the runway. It was on the runway, taxiing still. It was not, it was not actively. I thought it had turned around. I don't know. But either way, they turned the plane around for us.

Starting point is 01:43:17 It was the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. We felt really bad. If I ever go on, you best, like the best, what's the nicest thing everyone's done for you? Turn around the PJ for sure. That's up there. It was mortifying. It was a low point. But then the rest of the fun was fantastic.

Starting point is 01:43:31 It was fantastic. It was a lot. It was fantastic. And we are forever. You deaded, yes. Anyway, in other news, the New York Post is launching the California Post. The New York Post goes to Hollywood. Plans to launch, plans launch of the California Post daily newspaper.

Starting point is 01:43:47 New York Post, you probably know them from their hilarious and wild front page, what do you call them? Just like headlines. They write really great, great headlines with like these hilarious puns. And so they are going to come to California and launch a daily newspaper, which of course will probably be instantiated on the web very seriously. But they call it the new venture. They're bringing the signature high-brow low mix, high-low-brow mix of content that the New York Post is famous for alongside fearless, common sense journalism, celebrity entertainment news, world-class sports reporting, and legendary covers. We got to get We got to start getting

Starting point is 01:44:29 the California Post delivered. Yeah, I'm very excited for this. Do you know who founded New York Post? I don't. Who? He happens to be a founding father

Starting point is 01:44:40 of this country, Alexander Hamilton. Wait, what? You're kidding me. Yes. New York Post was founded in 1801 by Alexander Hamilton. No way.

Starting point is 01:44:49 Father. That's amazing. George Washington appointed as the nation's first secretary of the treasury. Wow, what a story. We have our next guest, but in other media news, Barry Weiss is apparently looking to sell the free press for

Starting point is 01:45:03 $250 million. I'm going to hold off on ring the gong until it's confirmed. We're all rumors. The rumors actually come from the New York Post, but this would be a fantastic outcome for a new media company that's only something like four years old. Barry Weiss left the New York Times, opinion page. There was a huge dust up. That happened in 2022, and she's reportedly met with Skydance Media CEO. David Ellison at the high-powered Allen & Company Summer Camp for billionaires and David Ellison is the son of Oracle founder Larry Ellison and he's apparently reportedly interested in buying the free press as Skydance continues.

Starting point is 01:45:42 We think originally covered this briefly when they were meeting at Allen and Company's event earlier this month or I guess earlier in July. Yes. This screams like talent acquisition as much as it does. Barry, Barry is on a tear and she, yeah, is a, she does, she leads the podcast interviews and brings great guests on and she writes. But then they also high, they also have gotten a bunch of great people on the team. Tyler Cowan has a column at the free press. Like that was the, that was the thing that got me to subscribe.

Starting point is 01:46:17 Because I love Tyler. And I was like, I want to see what he has to say. And I don't want to like, it's paywall. So I have to pay. And so she's been very good at like hoovering up talent, building this thing. and they publish a ton when you go to the free press. You just see tons of articles, all sorts of stuff. Just today, I was looking at the free press's homepage.

Starting point is 01:46:35 They have basically an op-ed written by Palmer Lucky. Like, they got Palmer to write about his thoughts in the free press. And I thought that was just like, that's the example of like great, great written, written works. And very, congratulations. Barry would be able to help make CBS relevant again, even if she was continuing to run the free press. Anyway. Anyways, without further ado, we have Alex, Albert. Alex, welcome to the stream.

Starting point is 01:46:57 you so much for joining on short notice great to meet you great to have more you do it great to meet you guys what's new in your world and John I'm hoping you hold on to that that mallet so we can get a gong ring in give us some news what you got we went from yeah it's oh go ahead no you go for yeah I was gonna say it's an exciting day we dropped Claude Opus 4.1 let's go hit that three hours ago you're gonna give us a number how many parameters how much money do you spend on the thing I give you a sweet bench score okay Here we go. Yeah, give me this sweet bunch.

Starting point is 01:47:28 How about, what is it? Let's go. There we go. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a very, very exciting week. We're shipping like crazy and a lot of stuff happening.

Starting point is 01:47:40 Don't know how you guys are even keeping up over here. Yeah. It's amazing. It's, yeah. I mean, we've been talking about streaming for seven hours a day. We'll get there eventually. Fortunately, three hours is like just enough to barely cover, scratch the surface of what's going on in tech.

Starting point is 01:47:54 Talk to me about where this fits in. about where this fits into the rest of the landscape. There's a ton of stuff going on in Anthropics world from Claude code, different consumer models. There's so many different projects. How does this fit in? Yeah, so this is our best model yet for just general capabilities and intelligence really really is pushing the frontier

Starting point is 01:48:15 on all sorts of agentic reasoning coding tasks. Back in May, we kind of hinted at the launch of Cloud 4 that we want to get on a more continual release schedule, their upcoming models. And this is kind of our first step towards that vision of now being able to ship models faster and faster to our customers and end users. One of the narratives that's kind of stuck around

Starting point is 01:48:36 with Claude for a long time is this idea of like, the vibes just being really good. And yeah, it does great on the benchmarks, but it's just like fun to talk to. People like the way it talks. But at the same time, Anthropics been fantastically successful in the business context. Is there an important overlap there?

Starting point is 01:48:53 Like, are you hearing from business customers that the vibes being good is driving bottom line results. Well, yeah, more so how much do developers care about vibes versus just raw? It seems like developers are the only ones that can tell that the vibes are good. But I'm always interested in like, how does that actually translate to like my bottom line if I'm an enterprise SaaS company and I need to use an anthropic API for something? Am I happy with the vibes or is that just kind of like a nice to have on top? Yeah, I mean, the vibes are kind of, you can measure vibes in a lot of different areas. So if you're a developer, you're measuring vibes in the coding domain and how long of a task can these models complete?

Starting point is 01:49:31 Can you just let it go off agentically and work on your files? If you're creating an application, your enterprise that has end users and you're having those end users actually interact with the model, you want those personality vibes to be pretty stellar. Otherwise, you're just going to give a bad experience to your customer. I think Claude has like a really wide range of things there. And of course, we're known for kind of that natural feeling personality. And we've done a lot of character work there. We've some really great researchers on the team that focus on that.

Starting point is 01:50:00 But then on the other side of the spectrum for the developers, for those folks that are building agents, that's where we really get into that other type of vibe, which is how long of a task horizon can these models operate on. Is there a good benchmark for task horizon yet? We've heard baby AGI, 15 minute AGI, 20 minute AGI, we've seen a lot of people like, string these things together in but like in terms of like most consumer interactions I think the where where most people hit the interface of an LLM they feel like like 20 minutes is the kind of the upper bound of what the average AI user is experiencing do you can you talk to me about that yeah I mean I do think LLMs right now have somewhat of like a jagged intelligence frontier

Starting point is 01:50:49 where in some tasks of course they spike more than others For me personally, when I'm trying to assess that capability in a model, there's a couple places I look. One is especially coding benchmarks. These are really, really important because often it's the model trying to complete a PR end to end. So it needs to take a lot of actions. It needs to call a lot of tools and modify a lot of files. So things like SweetBent are actually like good proxies in some degree to measuring that. There's also third-party institutions that are doing.

Starting point is 01:51:21 this research right now. So one is called meter, their model evaluation threat research. Yeah. And they have that really nice, that really nice line goes up graph of like plotting out the models and how long the task they can do compared to a human developer. Sure. And Claude has always been pushing the frontier on that. And I'm assuming once they get 4.1 up there, it'll be up into the right as well. Yeah. I mean, we've seen like the in terms of the spiky intelligence, like Arc AGI is like the main thing that people point to is like a weird valley of capability because it seems like it should be obvious and easy to do and yet it reveals something about the models are there any are there any places in the coding world that are more

Starting point is 01:52:03 specific where we're underperforming either just because we haven't focused on it i'm thinking about like like i imagine that most models are better at python than fortran yeah yeah but but is that is that an outdated take is fortran now just kind of like solved because somebody had just just got all the training data together and RL done for Trin and now we're good. Yeah, I definitely think there's still probably, if you were to like take Sweet Bench, for example, and you translate it into every coding language. I'm sure Python and JavaScript TypeScript would be ahead of the other languages. But we are seeing, especially with the Cloud 4 models, that they're able to handle a lot more

Starting point is 01:52:43 of those older languages or the languages that don't really appear as much in the training data to a much better degree. and that's through a combination of things from RL to just general architecture improvements. So we're kind of covering the bases with the models, but yeah, it definitely started in one way and that was expanding out. What have reactions been to 4-1? I'm assuming a variety of people got access to it, you know, pre-release. What are the areas that people are kind of most excited about? Yeah. Again, it's kind of those coding and agentic tasks have been really the start of the show here. What I think is interesting about that is that coding is kind of the proxy for allowing everything else.

Starting point is 01:53:27 So if you think about how a model actually interacts with things on a computer, everything can be done through coding operations. So when we say coding, it's almost like a little disingenuous to just like narrow it to that domain. But some of our early customers that were playing around with 4.1, WinSurf being a great example in one of their benchmarks, they showed that from Opus 4 to 4.1, showed roughly the same performance. performance jump from Sonnet 3.7 to Sonnet 4. And this was like a real world junior developer task eval. So something that I definitely would pay attention to. How are things going on the rate limit side?

Starting point is 01:54:03 I've heard that like capacities generally constrained for everyone, everywhere all the time because we don't have enough data. Obviously people are working on that. But like I guess like broad update on like how things are going. But then more specifically. Like when you're talking to companies that are building on top of anthropic APIs, are there specific strategies that you recommend to just embrace the realities of the modern AI era and capacity constraints?

Starting point is 01:54:35 Yeah, I mean, the rate list of situation is something we're just continuing to iterate on. And of course, we have like very, very smart people. They're much smarter than I think about this problem in terms of building out compute and also working on making our inference just overall more efficient. generally we want to provide the best experience we can to our customers so whether this is on the cloud code or through the API there's various things that we do whether it's like through our applied AI team helping our enterprise customers with their specific deployments or on cloud code making sure that our rate limit system is fair and actually allows for people to

Starting point is 01:55:11 utilize it as much as they can without rewarding people that might be like abusing the system and kind of detrimenting the other users so it's It's really about like kind of monitoring and keeping you consistent, so we ensure like great experiences for everyone that's trying to use clot. What about pricing? Is there a step up in like costs associated with 4-1 versus 4-0? What does that look like? Pricing is the exact same. We really do intend for this model to just be like a drop-in replacement for Opus 4.

Starting point is 01:55:41 So if you're using Opus 4, you should just be able to cleanly kind of switch over the model string and you're good to go. That's awesome. Yeah. What are some of the weird use cases that you've seen for Claude code? I've talked to some people that are like, yeah. Like they, because coding is kind of like an abstraction over like everything that a computer can do, they're coming to Claude code with tasks that don't, that feel more like just general like personal assistant agent stuff, but then it just writes a much of code.

Starting point is 01:56:13 Are, is that real? Is that, is that something that it's more just like when, you know, you know, when people, do those like beautiful artworks in Excel where they like this color every single cell as like pixels and it's like you're not you're kind of abusing the tool here but it's still impressive or is that actually like you know a glimpse into the future i think that is a glimpse into the future um there there was a tweet i posted a few days ago kind of asking the community for hey what's all the best non-coding use cases you're using CloudCode for. And it got hundreds of replies.

Starting point is 01:56:47 And really the answer is kind of, we're super wide-ranging. Everything from like managing your own personal knowledge base, second brain on your computer, you know, maybe you have a ton of notes and text files. So some folks are actually using it now for like video production. So we have we have a guy on our team that uses CloudCode and uses like an open source library to create animations and things for like all our product launches. Oh, that's very cool. which is just absolutely amazing.

Starting point is 01:57:13 I didn't even know that was possible. But it is kind of hinting at this thing, then it's like, well, if you can control code, you can really control anything that happens on a computer. Now we're moving it to this, like, operating system abstraction almost. And I think that's really the direction you're going to start to see CloudCode heading in.

Starting point is 01:57:28 That's awesome. Anything else, Jordy? Any, I'm curious to get an update on, it seems like a lot of the companies that we talked to, you know, we were talking with Dylan Field, the day of the IPO and he was talking about updates they're making with with mcp what's going on in that realm any updates while you're here on that front or interesting use cases yeah i mean mcp's been absolutely just ripping lately um the community is awesome and it's like really got to this

Starting point is 01:57:59 point now where it's almost its own like self-sustaining thing uh where there's like meetups and gatherings that are being hosted completely outside of of like are facilitating and um thankfully we get to participate in them and that's just like been super cool to see. I think MCP is going to be a large part of like making sure this kind of agentic future goes well. So if you can spin up easy integrations and connections to any service or any product or any internal application, all of a sudden you kind of unhobble Claude to some degree and you give it access to that knowledge that it needs to actually go

Starting point is 01:58:35 out and do those correct operations. So very excited about the team there and yeah, hopefully a lot more good stuff. coming on the way there soon as well awesome very cool well congratulations to the whole team on the launch it's a massive day thank you a week and uh love to have you back on soon i'm sure they'll i'm sure uh 4.2 will be right around the corner oh yeah a lot more coming soon yeah stay tuned guys have a good one cheers bye up next we have Scott kippoor from formerly andrewson horowitz he was in the o pm business the other people's money business now he's the director of OPM for the US government, the Office of Personnel Management.

Starting point is 01:59:15 Welcome to the stream. Scott, we are excited to talk to you. How are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you guys doing? We're doing fantastic. It's great to have you on the show. Thank you.

Starting point is 01:59:25 We're in a very funny era where more folks from Silicon Valley have moved over to the government. And every time they do, I have to have them explain to me like I'm in the VC world, what they do. I think I learned about the OPM, like the entire, office was a new term to me just a few years ago. Explain the office of personal management to me. You mean to tell me that you guys don't know what OPM is that is really disappointing. I'm shocked to hear it. I probably learned about it about a year ago. Explain it like I'm a venture capitalist

Starting point is 01:59:55 that's about to write a thread. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like I've always known about it. And I'm an expert in it. Yeah. My wife asked me the same thing when I got appointed to the job. So I'm not surprised to hear that. Hey, so really quickly, what it is is we are the talent management organization for the government. So in simple, in our corporate BC terms, we would be the HR department basically for the company. So our job is like make sure we have the best talent, make sure we have actual things like performance management standards, which by the way we don't have, which we're working on, make sure we have the ability to, you know, kind of understand the employee base through technology, which we don't have currently. So, but basically think of us in very simple terms as we would be

Starting point is 02:00:34 the HR department inside, you know, any other, you know, traditional VC back company. And does this cut across all the other departments? Or are you like where the boundaries of your? Yeah. So it's a hybrid is actually what it is. So basically so like there's some stuff that we have exclusive province on. So like I'll just give you a simple example. Like the president puts out a hiring and executive order saying we want merit hiring to be the standard in government,

Starting point is 02:00:58 which you and I can we can talk about that forever if you want. But basically so he says, look, I direct OPM to figure out like what are the standards that we need to do cross government to make merit hiring a reality. So we will go put out a bunch of regulations and research it and say, great, okay, now this is the law of the land for all the other agencies. This is what we expect you to do. And, you know, OPM will not formally approve and issue offer letters and stuff like that unless you guys do that. So that's what we do. And then, but there are HR departments, obviously, in the different agencies. And, you know, so think of it as like, you know, in a company, you might have like centralized HR, but then you have like business partner HR that might sit in the sales organization or other stuff like that.

Starting point is 02:01:36 And they may be kind of, you know, do things that are domain specific. But all the big things about like how do we recruit people, how do we train them, how do we actually manage them, you know, performance-wise, we will provide guidance for. Yeah. And sorry, Jordy. Yeah, I was just going to say, like, getting into it, what are your priorities first 90 days, 180 the year? I'm sure there's you've, like even any, you know, I'm assuming you're trying to bring in best practices that you learn. Fix the government. Don't make mistakes.

Starting point is 02:02:07 Yeah, exactly. Just ask a model to do it. We're going to make some mistakes, which is okay. That's part of the problem, by the way, which is like we've been living in this environment where you literally cannot make a mistake and so nobody actually tries anything. So yeah, really simply, there's three big things we're trying to do. One is create a high performance culture in the talent. So in other words, like we, my simple goal is, look, we want like the best and brightest

Starting point is 02:02:28 people to take government jobs. But as you guys know, look, A players want to be around A players. They want to be in an environment where they're held accountable. where when people do well, they actually get rewarded. We have a very, like, tenure-based and conservative risk management-based system here in the government, which is, like, you get power and you get promotion by having more people in your organization and a bigger budget, and the longer you spend time in government. So we've got to just flip that on his head and say, look, we're going to award things like innovation.

Starting point is 02:02:54 We're going to reward. I've been using the term measured risk-taking because, look, we can't go just, like, literally, throw stuff against the wall and see what works like we do in Silicon Valley. But anyways, that's thing number one. So like goal is how to like all the smartest people in the country feel like coming to work for the government actually is great for them. They learn stuff and they'll go get paid for that in the private sector. Number two is we've got to make operational efficiency like a core tenant of government. So again, I know this sounds crazy coming from, you know, the world that I know you and I came from.

Starting point is 02:03:22 But today, basically, there's no incentive for efficiency. So again, you need to like make it into people's performance plans and say like your job every day is, are you doing a great service on the behalf of the American people? and are you constantly like turning the crank to figure out how do we use technology? How do we use AI to do stuff? How do we like reorg to do things? Spend less money? Spend less money, right. Today, again, right, I mean, it's the exact opposite incentive, which is more money

Starting point is 02:03:48 means more people, it means more power, right? And so like everything we have to do is, yes, spend less money to deliver a better service. And so we've got a ton of like technology initiatives that we can talk about there. And then the final thing we want to focus on is we've got to make like, we've got to anticipate what living in an AI first world looks like for government, and we got to not be flat-footed and realize that we have none of the talent we need, and we don't even know what the jobs are. So this is, I think, a huge opportunity, quite frankly, where I think we should work with the private sector and say, great, you guys understand what AI is going to do.

Starting point is 02:04:19 Let's figure out ways where we can have information sharing, even, like, quite frankly, swap employees back and forth, but find ways so that we don't wake up five years from now and realize there's all these new jobs that are being changed and or augmented by AI, and the government is not like, you know, figuring out how to actually get that talent into the government. Yeah, you mentioned spending less money. Yes. I want to know about the potential of spending more money. Is there a world where we remove salary caps on government employees?

Starting point is 02:04:48 Like, you've seen this in Silicon Valley. There's not, like, you know, obviously founders are very driven, but they have uncapped economic upside. Like the venture capitalists have uncapped economic upside in so many ways. The AI researchers that are getting poached. Like, it is just moneyball at the end of the day for a lot of sectors of the economy. Is there a reason why the government is fundamentally structurally different? Or do you think that we just need to make a better pitch for civil service? Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both.

Starting point is 02:05:19 So, okay, so look, we're never going to solve, we're never going to solve like the ultimate, like, uncapped upside pay gap between the public and private sector. And look, that's just, you know, politically that it never work. you know, we're not going to, you know, like, you know, we're not going to have a Zuckerberg equivalent of, like, paying engineers a billion dollars a year, right? Yeah. But we can do two things. One is we can change the compensation structure so that, yes, like, A players actually get rewarded. So I'll give you a very simple example here.

Starting point is 02:05:43 Everybody gets ranked one through five at the end of the year in their performance evaluations in government. Five's the highest, one's the lowest. 70% of the people get ranked a four or five, okay, which means, like, they're awesome. They're doing outstanding work. Zero point two percent of the people get ranked to one or a two. Now, again, mind you, this is across a population of 2.4 million people where at a minimum, you might expect a normal distribution, but like there's just no way that 70% of the people are above average, right, unless you're in Lake Wobagon, basically. So we've got to solve that problem. And then if you solve that, then the incentive structure can follow it, right? Because, again, a typical government employee gets 0.5% of cash bonus at the end of the year. That's because, again, there are too many people highly ranked. And the delta between low and high is like, you know,

Starting point is 02:06:27 50% or something, right? So what I'd like to do is say, you ought to have many fewer people ranked a four or five, and let's give those people like most of the bonus pool, for example. So we can't solve all the problems, but like we can solve that. And then your other points are really good one, which is we've got to change the pitch. So again, I'll give you a story here. When I first came in, one of my, one of the employees here said, the pitch that we use for government is job stability, basically. Like, that's the pitch. And I was like, I'm sorry to say, but like, unfortunately, I think somebody's been lying to you because like, there's no job in the world where we can guarantee job stability for people, even in the government. To me, the pitch has

Starting point is 02:07:00 got to be, you can see things at a scale and solve really hard complex problems. And yes, like, you can, you know, do a public service as well. But we've got to get people excited about, like, you know, putting people on the moon or all the things that, you know, guys like Elon do. You know, it's the whole, like, founder story of, like, what's the mission of the organization? The mission of the organization cannot be we provide job stability. So we've got to, like, tell that story. We got to go tell it on college campuses and we got to go like show it. And look, people don't have to commit their life to being in government. But if you could come here for two years and work on really hard, really cool problems and you could actually advance in the organization because you're not

Starting point is 02:07:34 tenure limited, but you actually are skills, you know, you're awesome at skills. We should be able to promote you faster. Like there's no reason why we can't compete for really smart people in that environment. And then again, go take that skill set and go work for, you know, Elon or go work for Zuckerberg and get paid a billion dollars a year after that. Like you can do both things. So we've got to sell the story. Yeah, I was talking to a friend who had some experience in China and he said that the main difference that he noticed was that the really, really top performers over there just kind of got sucked into government work. And he was kind of framing it as like, it wasn't exactly optional for them. And I know that that's not on the table here. We love freedom and choice and

Starting point is 02:08:15 independence. We kind of decide a long toe that we actually, like democracy is actually a good thing, right? Yeah, of course. But I guess my question is like, is like, should, I, I know, that like when the when the administration changes over I mean this happens every four years now eight years most there's there's a push to bring in new folks and there is some recruiting that goes on and and there's like whisper networks of who's really talented and let's make the pitch to them that maybe now's the time to go and serve your country and a lot of people do swing at that pitch and they and they take it and some of them do very well with that but should it be more

Starting point is 02:08:49 aggressive should have should recruiting be be 10 times bigger in terms of just every talented founder, engineer, venture capitalist, anyone who's high agency, high intelligence, high EQ is at least hearing the pitch for where they would fit in in the U.S. government. Because I think a lot of people, I know a lot of people that got calls. I know a lot of people who were talented and didn't get calls. And I'm wondering if we should have reached them with something. Yeah. It felt like at the beginning of this year and maybe the end of last year was just recruit, Doge was just dominating. It was recruiting.

Starting point is 02:09:23 It's a fantastic recruiting engine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I didn't see that. I didn't hear like, oh, I have a fintech founder who, you know, they were great, but they got kind of clobbered and now like the IRS is calling them. Like I didn't hear that story that often, for example. Yeah. So, yeah.

Starting point is 02:09:38 So let me try to just unpack that a little bit. So first of all, you're absolutely right. We should 100% do that. So there's a problem we have today, which we are working on fixing, which is today, believe it or not, you can actually, there are weird hiring procedures in the federal government, which makes it very hard, in some cases, literally to hire people based on their skill skill assessment. So I'll give you a great example. So people have gotten really good at, we put a job description up on this thing called USA Jobs, which is basically the website. And people essentially

Starting point is 02:10:06 tailor their resume to exactly the words that are in that job description. And the filtering process puts them at the top of the list, but it's all self-assessed stuff. We actually literally, like, you could hire an IT network administrator in the government today and not have a technical person interview that person to see do they know like what like you know ht ps means basically um and their good news is we just ask part of it is because like people are worried about okay is it are those tests discriminatory we actually just had a good legal ruling the other day that clears the path for this but believe it or not literally like we do not have skills based assessment for many jobs in the government so the the way to so like it's just really hard it's really hard for those people to come in we but you're absolutely

Starting point is 02:10:50 right which is look the real solutions problem is we got to do both We've got to fix that piece. And then we have to literally go tell the story. Like, I don't think this is the solution. We're not going to do TV commercials like, you know, the Army and Navy and, you know, we need a few good men, basically. But we need something like that. We got to go tell the story. And you're absolutely right, which is I would bet there are, I don't know, I bet there's thousands of data scientists jobs open across the government today.

Starting point is 02:11:12 You as an employee, if you're interested in that, you should just be able to apply once and we should then send your resume to all thousand of those jobs. Like, we don't even do that today, basically. So like, you literally have to go find out where those thousand jobs. So there's all the stuff that, again, they're not bad people. It's just that the system has not been set up for that goal. The system has been really set up to say, let's really be conservative. Let's really be kind of careful on these things. And we just have to change that paradigm.

Starting point is 02:11:36 Yeah, it feels like we're fishing with a really large net. You know, you put up a big ad. We need a few good men. And whoever gets caught in the net comes into the organization. And we need to get some harpoons out and go find the really like laser focused people for the perfect job that will thrive. military you know it's been interesting i think things have changed but there was a period where military recruiting to my knowledge was was really really tough and that's still with a lot of a lot of people

Starting point is 02:12:02 that do end up joining having been marketed to and and and and kind of exposed to army navy marine corps air force since they were kids right but nobody's getting nobody most most americans wouldn't know they think o pm if anything is other people's money like you're saying and they wouldn't know it. And so how do you, how do you get somebody like even open to the idea? You know, a lot of kids today in high school, college, they know they want to work in tech. Nobody's going through those periods of life knowing they want to work in a specific organization or very little. On the technical, you're absolutely right. So look, yeah, and we got to just like have a presence on college campuses and be there just like Goldman Saches and just like Facebook is. And we got to

Starting point is 02:12:42 go tell our story. Like, you know, you guys know this, but I used to work for a head of sales one of my companies and his famous thing was, you know, show it, sell it, hide it, keep it, basically, right? And right now we are hiding it, basically. And people find us because they're looking for stability as opposed to us finding people who are looking for like an actual real interesting challenge. It's an interesting time, you know, apparently CS grads are struggling to find roles. Exactly. You can see the variety of reasons for that. You know, we just had someone on from Claude. Claude Cod code performs really well now. Maybe it's performing at the level of a junior engineer, but the opportunities in government where you don't need to be, you're not

Starting point is 02:13:21 out there competing with other foundation model labs or. Luke Feritor. Like he is a programmer. From that massive Bloomberg article, it didn't seem like 90% of what he was doing was programming. It seemed like, yeah, he was able to scrape some data together and do some analysis to know how to make a decision. But a lot of it was just sending emails, having phone calls, having meetings. But Luke's also an example of somebody who's truly elite in his cat.

Starting point is 02:13:46 agree and I'm talking about like the next like 10,000 people. But I feel like if you're a new grad and you can program, that gives you a superpower that then you can also just be effective to be rigorous and first principal thinker in a meeting where you're just trying to decide how much money should we spend on this thing. Yeah. Did you see, by the way, did you see the quote from the unnamed government source in that article about why they didn't like, why they didn't want Luke? They're like, he's not qualified because he didn't go to college and he didn't have five years

Starting point is 02:14:09 experience, right? And that is exactly the problem, right? All of our criteria for evaluating people are based upon credentialing. and based upon tenure. And this is where merit-based hiring matters so much. Like to me, if you're Luke, I don't care, if you're 18 years old and you can actually function at the level of somebody who, like, you know, knows programming at a high level, let's pay you at that level.

Starting point is 02:14:29 Let's hire you that level. And okay, like if you need some help around the edges to like, you know, make sure you can sit in meetings, you know, with your shoes on, that's great. We can teach you that basically. Yeah. But we can't exclude people from the process because they don't have like, you know, a sheepskin that says, you know, they went to Stanford for four years. I mean, that's crazy.

Starting point is 02:14:45 Yeah, exactly. How is your AI strategy forming when people hear AI in government as citizens, they get scared. That sounds scary. If you're working in the government and you hear AI, you're probably thinking, I don't want to lose my job. But clearly it should be able to be beneficial. The big thing, it just feels like get every government employee access to an LLM. Because before any of the job displacement, any of the cyberpunk terminated, like let them search the knowledge quickly.

Starting point is 02:15:19 Like, please. So anyway, what was your take? Yeah, no, you're exactly right. So today on my government computer, if I want to do something on an L.M, I have to like go to my personal computer to do it, right? That's not crazy. And how many government jobs are email jobs?

Starting point is 02:15:30 Yeah, yeah. Right. Look, the privacy issues are real and we gotta be talking to that. But like there's, but there's, but so much of what the government does is already in the public domain. So let me give you a very simple example. So one of the things my team does, as I mentioned is we develop like rules and regulations for, you know, let's say how you should do merit hiring the government, okay? And the way the process works, which I won't bore you with, but basically like, we put out a rule

Starting point is 02:15:52 and then we have to invite public comment on it and literally people submit comments. So we're doing a rule right now where we got 40,000 public comments on this rule, okay? Some, a group of people in my team literally read all 40,000 of those comments and they write a written response to them and do it, you know, the old-fashioned way. Now, I'm not going to say, like, let's just have, let's just get rid of all the people and have AI do that, But there's no question in my mind that we can get a 10 to 15% easy efficiency advantage if we actually had a very simple LLM that we could train on totally public data. I'm not talking about private data. All that regulation stuff is public.

Starting point is 02:16:24 You know, help people manage that process. But like we have to start with that. So like what I'm doing here in OPM is I'm actually going to have somebody come in from the outside and like do the full landscape of like what's happening in customer support and what's happening in, you know, HR organizations. and like what are all the use cases out there? And then what I'm doing is just telling my team, look, now your job is to go back and find like what are the small wins we can make on little use cases. And again, I'm not asking you to like,

Starting point is 02:16:51 you know, get rid of 100% of your people. But like, you need 10 more heads and you need to find some place to get 10% more productivity. We ought to be able to do that within our current budget without actually having to, you know, add headcount. So we just got to start with little baby stuff that doesn't scare people, get them educated. You're exactly right.

Starting point is 02:17:08 Everybody should have, you know, an LLM on their day. desktop. And then we can tackle the hard problems, which is, okay, are we going to put confidential government data in them? And do we need them air gaps and all that crazy stuff? But, like, we don't even need to do that right now. We just need to, like, educate people and then come up with use cases that are based on, like, literally public data with human authentication. Is the, does the federal workforce have a, like, an aging problem? You know, we'll talk with CEOs on this show or investors that say, you know, the majority of factory owner operators in the country are going to retire within the next five to 10 years, right? That becomes concerning because

Starting point is 02:17:43 there's a lot of just like general know-how and process that could just kind of get lost or evaporated. Is that a challenge that you're facing in terms of, you know, people that have been in the government for 30 plus years and are getting to the point where they're ready to retire? Yeah. If you look at the demographics of the government, I don't know the exact number, but there's no question. Like, the government is very skewed towards people who are kind of later in their career. And again, I think this is a problem that we've had, which is we haven't figured out a way to actually get people in at earlier stages in their career because we've got all these impediments that I talked about that make it hard for you if you're a recent Stanford grad or

Starting point is 02:18:19 whatever to be able to get a job here. So yes, we have to solve that problem. Look, I mean, sure, there's going to be knowledge that walks out the door. Look, I'm more worried about the long-term thing, which is, do we have a steady pipeline of really smart people who will come here? And then then we can solve that aging problem by just, you know, over time, kind of changing the demographics. But yeah, like I don't think, I'm not worried like there's a cliff here where, you know, 10 years from now, all the experience people walk out the door. But I do think we have to have like a demographic and a set of hiring practices that allows us to actually kind of, you know, build a funnel from the very bottom of folks. Yeah, it'd be cool. I remember maybe in 2012, like Teach for America was really popular. And obviously that was like non-governmental, but like aligned with this idea of like a tour of rough service.

Starting point is 02:19:03 And there was code for America. And, you know, it's like cut out the middleman. just go straight for America, like work for the government. I love that. Yeah. It'd be great culturally. It was like, yeah, somebody. So, yeah, because now, like, I feel like if you did four years just in civil service

Starting point is 02:19:17 and then you jump into Silicon Valley, it's kind of like a weird track, but like it shouldn't be. It should be completely normalized. Yeah. A long time ago, right there, and this is not the perfect analogy, but there used to be something called like the Civilian Conservation Corps, which was exactly that, right? It was like people came right out of school. They did some heavy labor for a while, and then they went to the private sector.

Starting point is 02:19:34 So, yeah, like, we ought to do this. So, like, what I would love to do is, I would love to do is I would. love a program where we say, you know what, take all the smartest people, have them come here for two years. By the way, if we can do this, let's forgive your, let's forgive some student debt as part of that, right? So like, let's actually have a real tradeoff, which is you do public service and we'll give you some financial compensation. And oh, by the way, I want to work with the private sector and say, you know what, we're going to get a private sector employer to guarantee you a job when you finish your two years here. And they might even give you full credit for those two years. You come in as a third

Starting point is 02:20:02 year and that and like just work on that stuff right so uh you know that's what we need to do and and look i've been using this term that's terrible that my kids joke at uh which is make government cool again which is magaca if you pronounce it out loud my my my uh my uh marketing team who's sitting here next me off camera yeah don't doesn't run off the tongue doesn't really yeah it's not it's not the great attack but like that's what we have to do like we have to make civil service like super exciting and the good news is like we've got no shortage of like moonshots now, right? So like AI, right? Like, how do we transform the government with AI? That's a great moonshot. Let's go do that. But we need like a, you know, Apollo mission like moonshot, which I think the president has given people with AI. And we got to go tell that story. And, you know, if we can do that, then I think like we're in a totally different situation. Are you going to be visiting college campuses for career fairs at all? Are you going to be pounding the pavement? I would love to. Look, you all know this, having been in the Valley. Look, if you're in the valley,

Starting point is 02:20:59 99% of your job is recruiting, basically. Like, that is, like, probably the most important thing that any manager does. And, yeah, like, I don't think any of us is beneath that. We got to go sell. So, yeah, I'd love to go to campuses. I'd also, look, I want to, we've been talking about campuses. I also want to be clear, though, one of the priorities the person has, which I totally agree with is we shouldn't use credentialing as a shortcut for this stuff. So, look, I don't care if you went to college or not. If you have the skills to do this job, like, we've got to go find you, too. Look, college campus. or nice aggregation points and make it more efficient.

Starting point is 02:21:26 But like, we need to go find anybody who has a, you know, technical degree or not a technical degree or a trade degree or anybody who's just really smart and capable and go find those people. And we hire them not because they, you know, have a, you know, a diploma, but because they actually can contribute to the workforce. Or even like experience of the startup. Like they've been there for a couple of years. They've vested.

Starting point is 02:21:44 They run the next thing. Go do a tour in the government. Yeah. Yeah. Last question. Have you had any pleasant surprises since starting your job? Anything that you're like, oh, that's actually run pretty well? Oh.

Starting point is 02:21:55 Yeah, you know, look, I'll be out. So to be totally honest, look, there are, my pleasant surprise, which is, I don't think is surprises, look, there are very good people here who are really care about what they're doing. So look, you know, everybody in the government here, there is a serious element of public service and they all take it very seriously and believe it and believe it. And it's incredibly like noteworthy. What I really think is, look, I think the system has failed them, which is, look, as leaders

Starting point is 02:22:19 and managers, we have created a system where, you know, we've told them, do not ever make a mistake. Do not ever risk innovating because we don't, you know, look, you guys know the valley, right? In the valley, we always talk about, look, we're looking for uncapped upside on stuff. Yeah, you get fired for not taking the risk. That's exactly right. There is no value today in maximizing for uncapped upside if that means you also take an extra 5% of downside risk. And again, look, I want to be totally clear. We can't be cavalier. You know, we're dealing with people's, you know, social security or we're dealing with national security. So we can't just, you know, literally throw caution to the wind. But we can accept that there are some things where we may not get in the 100% right. And then we'll. fix them when we do, and we have to have a culture to do that. So that to me has been, again, the very positive upside surprise, which is, and which I hope will prove true, which is, if we can change the incentive system, I think you have really good people who will do what the incentive system incensed them to do, basically. But right now, we just, we have an incentive system that, in my mind, at least, kind of encourages behavior that just is not, you know,

Starting point is 02:23:15 efficiency maximizing, is not innovation maximizing, and, you know, is just outdated, I think, in a world where, you know, we know technology and the needs of the government are going to change very rapidly. We need to be an innovation maxing. Let's do it. I love it. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you for serving our country and rallying so many smart people to join you. And thanks for writing it down for us. This is very helpful. Thank you so much. I appreciate the time. You take care. Bye. Cheers. Bye. We need a Luke Ferritour for the CIA. We need to send Luke Ferritour to North Korea, infiltrate Pyongyang, get behind enemy lines, and turn it into a capitalist utopia. Make South Korea look like a complete blackout by

Starting point is 02:23:53 comparison using that map of the North Korea's dark and South Korea is super bright. More lights in Pyongyang than all of South Korea combined. Luke Fairtor on the front lines. So we have our next guest. This is breaking in real time. So John actually hit up Peter Sellis over a Discord. Oh really? HR apparently just threw a note on Peter Salas just posted guys at TBPN WTF.

Starting point is 02:24:20 John actually I think I'm in trouble. HR just threw this on my calendar. And it's Peter and HR discuss TBPN issue. Wait, is this real? No, I think he's joking. But very good stuff. I love it. That's amazing.

Starting point is 02:24:32 Thank you for sharing that. Peter, come on the show. We're going to figure out your cloud. We're going to get you live. We're going to have people live bidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should have three. We should be Shark Tank.

Starting point is 02:24:44 He's the Shark. We have three hyperscaler cloud SDRs. Come on and pitch. Okay, this is what we can bring to you. This is what we're asking. We're asking for, we got 100,000 H-100. It's an auction for who can deliver the lowest price. Exactly, exactly.

Starting point is 02:24:59 Anyway, we have our next guest in the Temple of Technology. We have Kyle from Contrary. How are you doing, Kyle? Good to see you. What's going on? Welcome to the stream. How's it going, guys? What's new in your world?

Starting point is 02:25:08 Break it down for us. Well, we're just launching our latest deep dive from Contrary Research. Very cool. So for folks who don't know, Contrae Research is our private markets research database. We launched a couple years ago. Contra's a venture fund, but our focus is on talent and on research, so finding the best ideas, best people bringing them together. And so Contra Research has published research on 500 different companies.

Starting point is 02:25:33 I think we've got most of your sponsors on the list, so we're working our way down. But we just published all the latest deep dive on building an American TSMC. So TLDR, the piece, is the idea that we're completely dependent on Taiwan for 90-plus percent of advanced semiconductors. dumbest bottleneck that we could possibly be in. And it feels like we're basically just hoping that it doesn't become a problem when it could become the most significant geopolitical flashpoint and effectively lead to World War III. And so it feels like there is something we should do about it. And so we kind of go through the options of do we build it from scratch,

Starting point is 02:26:07 do we borrow it from TSM? Do we try and buy it from some willing sellers? It seems consensus that Intel is not the American TSMC, is TSMC the American TSMC, is Samsung the American TSM. We've seen a lot of progress from both of those companies. Elon doing a big deal with Samsung. TSM obviously seeing great results out in Arizona. What's your take on just porting or expanding the current set of FAB companies that are doing quite well? Our biggest takeaway from doing the research is that a little bit that the ASMC is more of a mindset than a specific company. It's an ecosystem that we have to build a lot of different aspects of this. Yeah. There's a ton of startups that are building a lot of advanced stuff in chip design and using AI in that.

Starting point is 02:26:55 TSM is pouring 165 billion into the U.S. more so. So there's a ton of things that we can take advantage of. The biggest limitation is that when you try and build a lot of this stuff from scratch, you just don't get there quickly enough for it to make a difference, right? There's a bunch of stuff like the folks at Anderil, and they have this idea sort of internally of China 27, where it's this idea of, you know, if China's going to invade Taiwan, it's probably going to happen over the next, you know, call it four or five years.

Starting point is 02:27:22 Xi has talked about 2027 specifically. So this is an urgency thing. This is not a long-term bet. And so the question is, how do we get to scale where if China was to take Taiwan tomorrow, is there something that we could do to have some capacity here? The unfortunate reality is that the startup ecosystem, as great as it is, and as much as it can benefit us in the long run, it's not going to get there quick enough.

Starting point is 02:27:42 As much benefit as we get from TSM partnering a lot of the results they're having in Arizona. and there's a huge cultural blowback in Taiwan because they have this silicon shield where they think of our dependence on them as their protection from China. And so yes, TSMC wants to pour a bunch of resources here. But whether we get those sort of leading edge nodes that allow us to compete for things like AGI and to really compete with China, that is a much longer battle. And so despite the fact that Intel is struggling, it's basically sending up emergency flares. You guys talked about it on the show. Basically in their last quarterly earnings, they talked about, you know, We're going to do our best.

Starting point is 02:28:18 And if we don't get material customers, it may not be economical for us to continue to compete in leading edge nodes, which is going to be a huge hit for the U.S. to stay competitive. And so our thesis in the piece is that we basically have to take Intel as our only hope of getting to scale quickly enough. Intel's not going to do it on their own. There's a bunch of stuff that we have to do to make that possible. Yeah. So what's the biggest request from TSM or Taiwan? Like should we be pulling the, hey, we'll invest alongside?

Starting point is 02:28:47 you will subsidize, we'll give you tax cuts to build the second, the third, the fourth fab in America, or should we be more focused on let's commit more defense resources, more government spending to Taiwan to create, you know, an American shield that's independent of the Silicon Shield or maybe both. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely when you talk to all of the major defense companies, Palmer Leakey has a great line where he talks about turning Taiwan into a prickly a porcupine, that people don't want to step on. That is absolutely priority number one to give them all the capabilities that they need

Starting point is 02:29:22 and the folks standard roll are on the ground in Taiwan all the time. So that's a huge component of sharpening the partnership. I also think that you need to emphasize that American companies need to be, the government needs to incentivize American companies to be purchasing American-made semiconductors as much as possible.

Starting point is 02:29:41 So as you reshor more of this stuff to, whether it's TSM efforts, whether we literally, you know, nationalize Intel and take it and take the Foundry business private, right? Like Dylan Patel, who you guys have had on the show and is an absolute rock star, he has made it abundantly clear that the survival of Intel Foundry is critical to America's economic and technological dominance. And so we have to take that seriously as well. And there's a bunch of incentives that we can build in terms of making, you know, getting people access to semiconductors that are made by Intel in the U.S., by TSMC in the U.S. we have to incentivize people to be using our own ecosystem so that we get the reps we need

Starting point is 02:30:18 to get as far away from dependence on Taiwan as possible. Do you think that Lip Bhutan is the right leader for this transition for Intel? It seems like they need to, with broader support, reinvent themselves, and yet hearing Lip Bhutan on earnings calls and just talking through, it just feels like cut after cut. He's good at firing people, but is he really good at fire? I haven't been inspired by, he's definitely not CARP on the mic. It's not exactly inspiring people.

Starting point is 02:30:52 So I'm curious. Carp also has like 1,000 employees and I'm pretty sure Libbuton has like 100,000 employees or something. Yeah, they, so Intel has more employees than TSMC and Nvidia combined. Yeah. So he's got plenty of people that you can fire. The biggest thing that is compelling about Intel is that they are already in this process of cultural change, right? You look at that, and it's back to 2005 was the first time they had a CEO who wasn't an engineer by trade. And basically they went through 15 years of financialization.

Starting point is 02:31:23 Like it was literally the Jack Welch playbook of just dumping money into stock buybacks and robbing R&D for decades. And those CEOs were the ones that put them on the path sort of stumbling, losing their lead. So like even with Gelsinger, like that transition is already in its way. Like putting engineer, they talk about bringing the nerds back. And that transition is already in the way, which is important. I think the cultural leadership that you should be paying more attention to is the leadership level at Intel Foundry specifically. When you think about Intel's two core businesses, you have Intel products, Intel Foundry. Intel Foundry has had four different leaders over the last three years, like some of them lasting no more than

Starting point is 02:32:02 two months, right? And what was compelling this idea that like you can, you can have this sort of within a division leader who can be really inspirational. I think the folks at Waymo, they have a co-CEO setup, but it's their former head of policy and then their former CTO. You have the technology, you have the policy. That's a great duo for sort of Waymo setup. Something at Intel Foundry that could be similar could be really compelling. The thing that's the biggest concern for me is that the first person they had, once they started breaking out Intel Foundry into a separate P&L, the first CEO, the first leader of Intel Foundry that they had, they called him the president of Intel Foundry. He reported directly to Gelsinger. Four leaders later, it's now,

Starting point is 02:32:43 this person is the general manager of Intel Foundry. They're also the chief global supply chain officer and the chief technology officer of Intel's core business. Meanwhile, like Intel products has its own dedicated CEO with the title of CEO. I think the biggest problem is not necessarily even Liputon, but it's more about are we actually acknowledging that Intel Foundry needs to be a growth engine that you can invest in to be able to build back dominance. And that's absolutely not how they treat it. Was, I feel like earlier this year, there was a rumor that, that Elon was kicking the tires on Intel. How real was that?

Starting point is 02:33:18 Did he kick the tire and? It was the PJ tracking. That was how they all knew. They were all in Mar-Lago together. The PJ tracking felt like a bit silly because everybody was in Mar-a-Lago. Yeah, everyone was there. That's right.

Starting point is 02:33:29 You could spend probably a lot of compelling narratives based on all of the people who were there at the same time, right? Yeah. In terms of like what is actually sort of official, the two things that you know for sure are, there was talks that TSM was going, going to acquire Intel's Foundry business, their board flatly

Starting point is 02:33:47 denied that, that that wasn't true at all. Then there was talks that they might invest heavily and run a joint venture where they take over operations of Intel's Foundry business, even if they're not buying it outright. And what's funny is that they did not deny that outright, they refused to comment. And so the general census of folks

Starting point is 02:34:03 is that that was a conversation that was active. Yeah, that makes sense. How much of the race for American semiconductors is driven by the question of like founder mode, just that abstract question of, you know, do we need Elon in the seat leading? He said he was going to be walking the floor at Samsung. Obviously, like the founder mode pattern has seemed to work in so many stuck kind of stagnating worlds like rocketry, electric cars,

Starting point is 02:34:33 or Elon's gotten in and kind of jarred things loose. But is that something that we should be looking out for optimizing for? A hundred percent. I mean when you contrast Lipu versus Jensen, it's like night and day difference, right? You do not have visionary leaders in chip manufacturing in the U.S. because we don't do it anymore. Like it's not a fundamental part of what we do. There's not a core DNA there. And so do you need somebody who is that visionary leader? Absolutely. And does Intel have any of that DNA? No. And so when you think about what needs to change, I think our thesis and take away after doing six months of research and drilling into all this stuff, is that you cannot ignore the entire ecosystem.

Starting point is 02:35:15 And that visionary leader role is absolutely critical. And that is an unanswered question. Like we don't have that. Like we don't have an, you know, somebody you retweeted our post today and said, we just need an Elon Musk like, you know, Herkorean act of God to be able to make this possible. And like, the takeaway is accurate.

Starting point is 02:35:36 The how to do that is much more difficult. Yeah, it can't be manufactured. But, I mean, green shoots all over the place, lots of cause for optimism. So hopefully the piece starts a conversation can be a catalyst for change. What are you hoping to see out of like the immediately next quarter for Intel to get on the right track? The biggest opportunity is for Intel to stop treating Intel foundry like it is an ugly stepchild. Like it is this like embarrassing accident that they happen to have and they're trying to distract people over this other thing or dress it up. up like it's this fancy thing. And the biggest problem is, and this goes back to this is a great

Starting point is 02:36:13 conversation. I've heard a couple of folks have. They talk about the, I think it was Bucco Capital talking about like the greatest thing that Elon Musk has built independent, even even thinking at Tesla, SpaceX, everything, it is the investor base at Tesla is got to be the most incredible investor base any public company has ever had to let him do what he's doing and to have the vision and everything. Intel is just smattered with what Palmer would call Wall. street weenies. Everybody's just thinking about it is how can we optimize this thing as effectively as possible. And it's like that is not how you build the future, nor is it how you build American dominance. And so really you need that investor-based turnover. And it feels like that comes

Starting point is 02:36:51 from narrative, where if you're telling the story of Intel Foundry, we can get a visionary leader, we can have this opportunity. They're already at scale. They have a lot of the technology. They've sort of caught back up in many ways. They're still failing operationally, pretty miserably. And so the opportunity is like tell that story and get an investor base that is stoked to be investing in the ASMC. Well, thank you so much for joining. It's a pleasure catching up. We'll talk to you soon. Have a good rest of your day. Thanks for you guys. Thanks for coming on, Kyle. Great work. And speaking of Anderl, our next guest works for Anderrell. And she's the general manager of Anderil RMS. And we're excited to talk to her about the new rocket motor facility.

Starting point is 02:37:31 But we'll let her break it down for us. Welcome to the stream. How are you doing? We have one minute while we get real just keep clapping just keep clapping. Welcome to the street. How are you doing what's happening? Oh, it's a really good day just commenced or finished a ribbon cutting with our new facility in coastal Mississippi with Chairman Wicker about 10 minutes ago. So good day so far. Fantastic. Tell us more about this facility. What are you making? How big is the facility? facility. How big were the scissors you used to cut? You know the scissors were not as big as I was expecting. I mean they were big but they weren't like the economically big. No we just finished the a full rate production facility for kind of what the 2020s can do for automated robotic full rate production of solid rocket motors. We have a 450 acre facility in coast of Mississippi about nine buildings and when we moved in here it was a multi- bulk facility in 2020 and we saw the good bones it had and the ability of what it could do.

Starting point is 02:38:40 So we took one of the buildings on the far south end of the campus, nearly quadrupled the footprint, got world-class engineers specifically from the automotive industry to really look at what solid rocket motor production could look like in the 2020s with robotics, automation, and really putting, you know, robotics everywhere where there's a safety critical, or a quality critical component. Speaking of robotics, what's behind you? That is one of two robots that are involved in the casting assembly.

Starting point is 02:39:16 So we go through a mixing of solid rock a propellant, and then you have to cast it where you're essentially filling a mold. Like you were, solid rock a motorist is a lot like making a cake. You mix together dry ingredients, wet ingredients, and then you pour them in a mold, and you cure it in an oven. And so this is the robots that you, for the casting process.

Starting point is 02:39:36 Can you give us a view into the shape of the company? I know Adronos was the Rocket Motor Company that was acquired, but it sounds like you've hired a lot of people. How big is the organization now? So you are right. We started as Adronos. I was one of the two co-founders of Adronos back in 2015 with my co-founder, Chris Stoker.

Starting point is 02:39:58 And we grew that into about a 40-person company, the time of acquisition by andral, who was previous to that had been one of our customers. So a little bit of a vertical integration play. We have since grown that organization to just about 200 people today for and or Rockermotor Systems. I sit as the vice president and general manager of that business line. What did you see back in 2015 when you started the original company that kind of caused you

Starting point is 02:40:30 to take on the mission? And it felt like broadly Silicon Valley started kind of being aware of rocket motor like supply chain challenges. I want to say like in 2022, but you clearly saw it way, way ahead. Yes, this is all very much before all of the, I guess, need that has risen for sawed rocket motor production enhancements. Really back in 2015, I had developed a brand new formulation called Alatex. that can bring more performance to the industry. I saw a need to commercialize it. And naively thought that I would be able to progress it to a spot

Starting point is 02:41:11 where the two kind of incumbent providers of Solid Rocket Motors would fight over themselves to get access to the IP. But what I quickly realized is the desirement for them to innovate and get these new propellants was not there. And the only way I would ever be able to see full adoption and utilization of that product was, was if I was my own customer, if I was the solid rocket motor provider. And a big piece of my PhD at Purdue was looking at innovative ways to process energetic materials,

Starting point is 02:41:44 new ways of mixing, new ways of doing things. So I was able to leverage those lessons along with taking what is state of the art for kind of automation and different manufacturing processes, put them all together to create what my vision was for what solid rock production could look like in the 2020s. Very cool. And we really were kind of ahead of, you know, all of the other suppliers that have joined into that market. Amazing.

Starting point is 02:42:12 Well, thank you so much for calling in on such a busy day. Congratulations on the massive launch and good luck with the next phase. I'm sure you're going to be making a lot of product very soon. Yeah, and hopefully copy. I don't know. Last question I had, is the idea for this new facility to be a model that you would copy and paste to scale production, or is this going to be able to kind of take you guys all the way?

Starting point is 02:42:37 No, that's exactly the purpose of what we are wanting this facility to do. It's really looking at a manufacturing line that is agnostic to what goes through it, so we can do anything from a small two-inch diameter motor to something that's really big, up to 32 inches in diameter. And we are agnostic in the manufacturing process, but really focusing on kind of the one-piece flow out of manufacturing practices we can take this this facility and copy-pasted elsewhere on our 450 acres i could fit another two full rate production facilities each one if you look at a mid-scale tactical motor like say nine inches

Starting point is 02:43:15 diameter we can do about six thousand of those a year out of one facility so if i place another two of those here you know that's just a linear increase in production without having to have a brand new giant explosives campus. Then alternatively, I can take this small footprint, agile manufacturing process and place it strategically for integration purposes with our different customers, both domestically and abroad. And we are on the record looking at, you know, multiple places for that, including Australia through the new guided weapons enhanced ordinance program. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining. Thank you for the update. Have a great day. We'll talk to you soon. All right. Thank you. Bye.

Starting point is 02:43:56 We have Sean Henry from Stored. We ran into him in New York City. Got a chance to sit down and have the same hotel. Yeah, you're staying at the same hotel. We just said, well, we had breakfast. He just sat there and listened to us. Yeah. He was walking by.

Starting point is 02:44:08 He was busy. We said, hey, sit down. Sit down and listen. Supply chain and logistics. About tariffs and de minimis, the de minimis exemption. We will welcome him to the stream. How you doing?

Starting point is 02:44:23 Great to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. Good to see you. It's great to see you last week. Where did you land? Where are you now? Back home in Atlanta, no longer having fun in New York, having some breakfast with you guys. Yeah, very nice.

Starting point is 02:44:36 And businesses go to overall. Crashing breakfast, I should add, I guess. It was a great breakfast company. We were crushing breakfast. It didn't feel like you were crashing because you were probably, it was a busy day for us. But you were probably even busier. And we requested that you hang with us. It was fun.

Starting point is 02:44:54 and shared some insights on all the different things happening in your world. So yeah, give me the update on tariffs, the de minimis exemption, where things, how we kind of got here and then where we are now and then we'll get into where we're going next. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess background, there's two types of core tariffs. One is the general commercial, something's coming into a U.S. port and you're charging a tariff based on the commercial value of the goods at that time. And that's largely what was rolled out at Liberation Day a few months back was all of these tariffs, particularly around large imports.

Starting point is 02:45:29 But there's a separate category that had a big action last week, which is the minimus exemption, which is really started in the early 1900s, mostly for international travelers, think, I want to send a package back to my family. Well, there's these rules created that, as long as that package is under $800. And in these categories, you don't pay any tariffs. Well, what's happened the last few decades is if I want to store my inventory locally in the U.S., meaning bring it through a port, hold it in the U.S., now ship it locally, if I'm say, let's paying $2 for warehousing, $7 for delivery, and $5 for the tariff to get it in, I'm paying $14 to ship that locally. But if I never bring it into the U.S., if I just keep it in China, keep it in Europe,

Starting point is 02:46:16 put it in Mexico, Canada, and instead I'm making it, maybe paying $1 for local warehousing and labor, a more expensive package like $9, $10 internationally, but I never pay the tariff. I'm not comparing $14 to ship my unit through the U.S. versus maybe $10 to ship it from international. That's a big difference on your average product. And so Trump and the administration had formerly said that they've been waging more on this since even before election day, but they formally said it was going to go away in 2027. So since the start of the year, brands thought they had maybe two years to get ready for this. And all of a sudden, last week, you saw it announced on Wednesday that's going away on August 29th.

Starting point is 02:46:54 And so now brands are rapidly trying to move inventory into the U.S. Yeah. And is it apocryphal to say that this all like Timu and Sheehan like kind of started this trend? Or did they just merely capitalize on it? Where there other other companies that kind of found this? it's not necessarily a loophole. It's more just like an opportunity that if you exploit it to the max, you can scale a multi-billion-dollar business. A lot of people were using it. Nobody exploited it to the same degree. Yeah, I wouldn't call it Chian and Timu just like, you know, the tourist example.

Starting point is 02:47:27 It's like they're shipping billions of dollars through this platform. But are they the real progenitors of the idea? They've definitely exploited it at a greater scale than anyone else. Sure. But what's crazy is that if you look at the real progenitors of the idea. at the top 100, let's say Shopify businesses, over 50 of those, roughly was the estimate, are tipping out of Mexico into the U.S. So this is very prevalent across brands of all sizes, particularly very large in the apparel category. And just some quick numbers. Last year alone,

Starting point is 02:48:00 there was an estimated $64 billion of commerce that entered the U.S. through the de minimis exemption, which is roughly 10 billion of missed tariffs and roughly four to five billion of missed logistics infrastructure revenue. And so broadly speaking, logistics, U.S. oriented companies like ourselves are very excited by this because it's very hard to compete with Chinese and Mexican and other labor, real estate and no tariff versus local fast shipping. So yeah, what, I mean, this sounds like a huge tailwind for your business, but what are your customers actually coming to you with question-wise? It sounds like there's a very quick shift on the horizon around the de minimis exemption. So they're coming to you and saying, hey, I need to move all my inventory from

Starting point is 02:48:47 Mexico or China or Taiwan or Vietnam into Atlanta or somewhere else as soon as possible. Is that basically what's happening? Exactly. Because one, I think it's important to note that when you look at tariffs, a lot of people apply it linearly. Okay, a 10, 20, 30 percent tariff product cost is going to go up 10, 20, 30 percent, that's on the commercial value of the individual unit. And so much of the cost is both margin for the brand, advertising, local U.S. logistics. And so these tariffs don't translate one to one for how it's going to impact the consumer. But at the same time, we're not necessarily talking to the brands as much about changing manufacturing origin to get away from those tariffs, because the impact can often be absorbed for these mid-market brands who have real profits,

Starting point is 02:49:35 it's real growth. What we're talking about is back to that math I gave of, if you were spending $10 to ship it internationally avoiding a tariff, but you're doing a one to two weeks shipment, so a slow delivery cheaper. And it was, you could do two, three day delivery in the US, but maybe $14 all in with the tariffs, well, all of a sudden, if you're now spending, or I said 11 at first with the tariffs or in the US, all of a sudden now if you're going to jump all the way to 14, it doesn't make sense to pay more and deliver in two to three weeks cheap.

Starting point is 02:50:05 cheaper. But now all of a sudden, there's this massive influx of volume where all these brands are saying, how fast can you get me live in the US? I'm in Mexico. I'm in Canada. I'm in Europe. And the problem is with outdated technology, most logistics businesses are going to tell them four to six months and or with the influx of volume, a lot of capacity is becoming challenged again like we saw all the way back in 2020 and 2021 with such shortages of warehouse capacity. It's not that there's not leases on the market. It's that ready to go warehousing. capacity with all the infrastructure, technology, and labor, that capacity is rapidly getting gobbled up. And so we actually had a case study on our website from exactly what's going on,

Starting point is 02:50:46 where True Classic T's, great example, massive $800 million, a t-shirt retailer wearing one right now. Earlier this year, they were stuck in Mexico, and the Mexican president first signed away their exemption, which was, hey, if you first bring it into Mexico and it's here for less than 180 days because we know you're going to ship into the U.S., you also never pay our tariffs, but please pay our labor, our real estate, et cetera. Well, they first signed that away. There's since been a pause put on it, but we already migrated customers. Take someone like True Classic.

Starting point is 02:51:16 They were often told, we can get you live in the U.S. in six months. That's insane cost that they're going to face for those six months relatively. We got them live in 18 days from meeting us to go live, and that's all because we're really the cloud in comparison. Exactly. Thanks. Last question from me. How solid are we, I mean, when we went into Liberation Day, a lot of it was just uncertainty from the business community.

Starting point is 02:51:43 How confident whether or not it's good or bad for your business? How confident are we that we will be at least on the same course whether it's good or bad for the next few years, for the next 12 months? Like how much confidence do people have that these set, this set of rules that are in place right now will stick. Personally, I think the confidence is going up. I think this is one of the last exemptions people were curious about. And while there are still a few negotiations going on with specific countries, the kind

Starting point is 02:52:12 of broad general tariff, the reciprocal tariff and even key countries have already been set. And frankly, I tend to believe the administration is liking the results. So far, we've taken in over 150 billion of incremental revenue since Liberation Day just via tariffs alone. There was a GDP positive, sorry. kind of balanced budget, positive month, salt, to these tariffs and more. And so I don't think we're going to change course and go backwards.

Starting point is 02:52:37 And I think some of the logic is, while it may drive a slight increase in cost on the front end, you have to wonder what it's going to do on the back end when there is more production in the U.S., more middle and lower class jobs that have been competing with Mexico, China, these other countries labor on logistics. And ultimately, if they're able to use tariffs to impact other taxation on citizens, since leaves me thinking the administration is going to stay course on this makes sense awesome well congratulations on the growth and it seems like a lot of these decisions are going your way so happy to have you on

Starting point is 02:53:12 the on Team America building infrastructure and everything that we need to bring products to market in the United States so thank you so much for joining great to see you Sean we'll talk to you soon absolutely have a good rest of your day I'll talk to you by up next we have Andy from Two Sense we've highlighted his posts many, many times in the show. Excited to meet him and chat about the business and his day job outside of posting because he's built a very, very fun social network where your username is your net worth. Andy, welcome to the stream. How are you doing? Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Are you in a secure location? You've probably upset a lot of people with what you've built,

Starting point is 02:53:52 but it's opt in. I guess it's opt in, but it just feels like people would push back on, right? You've gotten push back for that, right? To a degree, people have been a lot more positive about it than I thought they would be actually. Okay. I think what happened is I tapped into a latent anxiety that everyone actually had and it seems sort of like people are like, thank God someone's doing this so that I don't have to worry about it anymore. So is it, is it anonymous? It's just your network. Yeah, yeah, quickly explain the product for people that haven't seen it. I think a lot of people have probably seen it without realizing it. Maybe seen screenshots of like polls or comments or things like that, which I think are

Starting point is 02:54:31 fascinating. But yeah, explain it for the audience. Yeah, so we're building an anonymous social network where your username is your net worth. The main idea is to provide a verified place to have financial conversations that are difficult to have in person or with other people around you because of the inherent private nature of finance. And so we're collecting net worth information from bank accounts, brokerages. crypto wallets, and then later we're also going to do real estate and all kinds of other financial

Starting point is 02:55:00 assets. And we're trying to calculate this one big number that we can assign to everyone and allow you to speak from your position, basically. What are some of the key learnings, insights? I mean, I think the polling function where users can ask a question and then see like, you know, let's say it's a yes or no answer. You can see how much net worth is like backing up the results. And so I feel like it exposes like, okay, what does, like, what side is wealth on on this specific issue? But I'm sure you've had a bunch of other interesting learnings. I think probably the most interesting thing is when I set out to build this, I thought it would be inherently a place for financial discussion where people would talk about tax strategies and ARBs and alpha and stuff like that. And it's really become more of a general place to hang out.

Starting point is 02:55:49 And what I figured out is actually every conversation is a financial conversation. Your net worth and the experiences that have led you to that number sort of dictate the way that you are going to look at other things as well. And even if you're talking about something that's kind of boring or weird, that number is still relevant in that conversation, even if you don't bring it up every time you talk to someone. Totally. I feel like there's a lot of anonymous social networks that have gotten,

Starting point is 02:56:16 like, problems with like bullying and stuff. just like toxic communities because of the anonymity. Have you run in any problems? Are you fighting it in any particular ways? Or do you think it like... Yeah, do people ever come on there and try to eat the rich? It's just net worth negative $2,000. We are actually in an incredible position as a social network because our moderation strategy

Starting point is 02:56:39 is to just ban your bank account. And so if you break the rules on the platform, we can just block out the accounts that you've connected with. That's so interesting. because normally on like reddit you could have somebody that's angry and then they could just create they could be getting banned and just recreate accounts and how would you create new account with a huge you have to set up a new bank account transfer all your money over there like that takes a long time and if you do that enough times eventually you will uh make other people angry who will ask you why you're

Starting point is 02:57:06 making so many bank accounts and we don't even have to worry about it that's very funny that's wild how's growth been what's the news how's uh are you monetizing yet i can imagine i could see i could see uh you know You have interesting data that other social media companies need to kind of piece together through behavior and things like that. Like I imagine the big social networks try to build a profile to understand like what is this person's purchasing power. You guys get it. You know, the user's, you know, providing it. But how are you thinking about monetization? I think there's a couple of big strategies that we can try to go after.

Starting point is 02:57:46 Referrals is something that I've looked at. for a while. If you look at a public company like NerdWallet, a lot of their revenue is coming from referrals to loans and mortgages and credit cards. And from our position, if we have a bird's eye view into your finances, we're actually pretty well equipped to show you products that would benefit you financially. So we're not just selling you something, but we're also trying to sell you something that makes sense with the type of portfolio that you currently hold. Yeah, it's like, hey, we notice you're not using leverage. Did you know that you could lever up We'd love to refer you to Harry Winston, rare jewels of the world.

Starting point is 02:58:20 Discover the Sunflower Collection. John, what are you reading? I'm reading how to spend it. It's the wealthy section of the Financial Times that comes on the weekend. Refer you to Vacheron Constanton, the quest. Vacheron Constiton celebrates seeking excellence for 270 years, of doing better if possible. What were you doing before this?

Starting point is 02:58:42 These are going to be great referrals. You got to contact the ads. salesperson at HTSI. They got the graph diamonds ad in there. This is going to sell like hotcakes when you go when you start monetizing. That's the broad plan. That is the broad plan. Before this, I was doing basically a bunch of different side project apps. Two cents started as a side project. Sure. And I was just trying to figure out something that could ship out the door three or four times a month or a year and see if anything would get traction. And so the early growth on Two cents has been really amazing. It's probably the most popular thing I've ever built and almost entirely organic.

Starting point is 02:59:20 So it has come from Twitter on the timeline from other posters wanting to sign up and be on it. I've actually gotten a lot of comparisons to this earlier app poster, which was popular a couple years ago. I invested in poster. Yeah. It was a wild place. Last contrary. But it's so, you know, people are, it's interesting. A lot of people will use two cent that have never had an alt or an anonymous like account and I think it becomes extremely freeing for them to feel like they can have conversations online without being tied back to their LinkedIn you know or not being tied back to their family and I and I do think yeah I just think you've tapped into something super interesting because money is so is just at the core of everyone's

Starting point is 03:00:07 life whether they want it to be or not and giving people a place where they can talk about it freely. Of course, there's still going to be judgment. Like, of course, there's going to be people on the app that are going to think a certain way about someone's financial situation or, you know, what they're saying or how they're spending their money. But it does. I feel like the next, I feel like it'd be funny to build out. I'm curious, would you ever build out, like, a feed of, like, the users kind of like if they obviously opted into it, but just like purchasing, I feel like a lot of people would be very fascinated in that. that in a different way than like Venmo used to do it which I was like why is Venmo a social network

Starting point is 03:00:49 you know it's like I don't want like I don't want people to know what what I did you know whatever but yeah this is on the roadmap we would love to have a feature where you can opt in your transactions your recent transactions and then almost quote tweet them and say like I bought this $18 shawarma at this bodega it's fucked here's a picture of it and it kind of proves that you did that right like You're not just saying it. And same thing for brokerage movements. If you sell a bunch of Apple stock or whatever, you can write your due diligence and then also prove that you actually made that sale.

Starting point is 03:01:22 So you're not just saying you did it. We're proving it through financial history that it happened. And obviously, that's going to be entirely opt-in. You can choose to show things or not show things. But it'll be the only social network where you can have these types of conversations, where you can prove that you're actually moving your money or making these transactions that you're claiming that you are. Very cool.

Starting point is 03:01:42 Speaking of money, have you raised any money? We have. We have raised $3 million from Dragonfly and starting line. Congratulations. Was that just announced today? I didn't see it anywhere. It was yesterday. The official two cents account on two cents increased by $3 million.

Starting point is 03:02:01 Right. And so you saw it. Our spot on the leaderboard has jumped up a couple of places, which I'm very happy about. There we go. That's great. What's the number one spot on the leaderboard right now? Oh yeah. Who's the richest?

Starting point is 03:02:12 Right now we have, well, so I don't know because it's anonymous, but they are at 26 million. 26 million. Verified liquid. Wow. That's pretty crazy. That's pretty crazy. Might be an AI researcher. Maybe.

Starting point is 03:02:24 Maybe you got to get us going up by 8 million, 333 every month. You're like, oh, okay. I know who this is. Got a $100 million contract. Anyway, thank you so much for stopping by. Great to meet you and have a great rest of you. Congrats on the round. It's super exciting.

Starting point is 03:02:39 Thank you for having me. Bye. Cheers, Andy. Up next, we have Gabe from Harvey AI. Very excited to talk to him about legal AI and the impact of open source. I want to know if anything changed this week for his business. We will bring in Gabe from Harvey AI, the legal. Hello, welcome.

Starting point is 03:02:58 How are you doing? What's going on? Good. How are you guys? We're great. Great background. Is that mahogany? Yes.

Starting point is 03:03:05 The official wood of business and law. Yes. Mahogany, some bucks. Got to look professional. Fantastic. What's the latest, give us the update. I have a bunch of questions that will go all over the place, but give us the update in your world. Yeah. So last week hit three year anniversary, have kind of scaled up to 350 people, 500 customers, just hit 100 million in revenue. Let's go. There we go. Love hitting the gong for revenue. We hit the gong a lot for $100 million rounds, but it feels better when it's real customer demand.

Starting point is 03:03:40 We have this silly soundboard where we play the overnight success sound, but... Overnight success. Yeah, that one. And usually it's because some founders been grinding for like 10, 20 years and then they finally hit breakout success. But like, Harvey is kind of an overnight success. What actually set you up for this? Obviously, you were in a unique position to actually go after this opportunity.

Starting point is 03:04:04 This wasn't just something that you just lucked into, obviously. So give me a little bit of the prehistory. Yeah. Yeah, I actually started doing AI research in like 2012 and tried to do some other startups. And so I think there was a lot of this experience of trying to build these companies. Yeah. Without this technology. And I think I was at Meta on the large language model team right before Harvey.

Starting point is 03:04:28 And my roommate, who is now my co-founder, Winston, was an associate at a law firm. And I was showing him kind of the GP3 models. And he was showing me his kind of the legal work he was doing. And I think it was pretty obvious these models were going to get much better. And that seemed like a great application. And then I do think there was like some factor of luck of, you know, raising from Open AI, how good GPD4 was and then kind of really focusing on big law. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:04:53 So you add all that in, then we can do the overnight success. Because it's like easy. If you want to just grow really quickly, just spend a decade researching a fundamental technology that will change the world. Anyway, what, yeah. So much to go into here. Yeah, I mean, one thing I want to, you at this point, I'm sure, are talking to or have closed all, you know, pretty much all the top law firms in the United States. I'm sure the reaction internally at all the different firms.

Starting point is 03:05:23 I'm sure there's some excitement. I'm sure there's clearly excitement. Otherwise, they wouldn't be, you know, signing up and becoming customers. But I posted something last week I was in New York, and I spoke with, I was speaking with a lawyer randomly, and he was telling me about their AI adoption internally. And he said, and this was his point of view, he said, adopting too much AI will hurt our bottom line. And I posted that note yesterday, and it sparked a big conversation.

Starting point is 03:05:56 You know, the obvious response is that you don't pay great law firms and lawyers for, for the execution, you pay them for the overall product and the sort of like guidance and advice and strategy and all these other things. It's not just like the raw generation of documents or reviewing contracts and things like that. So how do you know, how are, give us kind of the overview of how different firms

Starting point is 03:06:23 are reacting and sort of leveraging AI. And then I wanna hear how you think law firms might need to like reinvent themselves and like kind of even, even adopt new business models and approaches and things like that over time. Yeah. So it's definitely like a wide range, both law firms, but also kind of individual partners within law firms.

Starting point is 03:06:44 And so we have, you know, firms that are still in the, let's test this out, let's see what to do with this. And then firms that are, we have already co-built software products or models with them. And they are, we are revenue sharing and selling that to their customers. So there is kind of the full range. And yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I think my guess is long term where this is going is, I think your point is exactly right. Like I actually think if you look at partners billables, they're actually undervalued, where it's like if you want to do a massive public merger, that partner is worth much more than $3,000 an hour, but it kind of gets subsidized by all these associate hours.

Starting point is 03:07:25 And so I think there'll be some changing of, you know, how you charge for these. but so far I think we're still kind of early days in that conversation and it's much more how do you you know get adoption how do you start upskilling lawyers to use this technology but do have a lot yeah the interesting thing I think you know we obviously have a bunch of founders that watch the show and I think it's interesting to look at invoices you get from your law firm and and just like look line by line where was I getting like real value and legal advice and strategy and all these things that are extremely high leverage. And where was I paying to like recreate a variation of this document or fix a punctuation error

Starting point is 03:08:07 and things like that? And obviously you can't see exactly. But it is easy to imagine in the future where in the same way that you have 100 X engineer today that's using, you know, cognition, Devon and WinSurf or Claude or whatever variety of cursor, et cetera, where they can be ultra high level. leverage because they effectively have an army of people, you know, working under them, uh, agentically. I think you'll see that in, uh, it's hard not to imagine that happening in, in law where you have this like incredible individual player who's able to like produce

Starting point is 03:08:44 potentially in order of magnitude more work, uh, in the very near future. Yeah. And one thing we're also starting to think about is like it's always interesting to ask, why do you have this billable model structure in the first place? And I think, I think one big problem is pricing legal work. And so like the reason you have this model is like these projects are so complex that it's actually impossible to do fix fee without this technology where it's just how much does it cost to do this merger. It's like you're going to have all these things that come up.

Starting point is 03:09:16 But I think as these models get better, the same way it's hard to predict like how long will it take to fix this bug. But now with these models you can kind of look at a code base and say, oh, actually I can tell you know some good error balance. I think there's things like that you can start exploring that make more of these new business models interesting. Have you seen lawyers in big law spinning out and building firms from the ground up to try to disrupt themselves and create new models? I mean, we've seen, we've had the founder of Crosby on, which is like they're building a firm themselves and like focusing on like a few specific types of contracts initially. And I could imagine it's kind of hard.

Starting point is 03:09:51 If you have a law firm with thousands and thousands of lawyers, it's hard to like totally change the business model. if three people spin off and they come to you and Harvey and say like we want to leverage this ground up build a firm around this are you seeing that at all yeah one of the fastest growing i think they might be amla 200 firms now is actually partner only and so i think this model is i think that the challenge is it just depends on the type of legal work you're doing but this is also traditionally like not traditionally in the past couple years what uh firms like pwc have also been doing of how do you bundle this legal work and provide alternative ways so So I think some of this work is getting unbundled and with different models you can kind of tackle

Starting point is 03:10:31 different parts of the legal work. How much do you guys care about models getting more intelligent versus just delivering on the current capabilities? Yeah. I think for us, the big challenge we definitely still have is like the models aren't good enough to do the very complex legal work. And so I think for us, you know, Sam has the quote of like try to build some company that like as the models get better, your company gets better.

Starting point is 03:10:57 And I think we are very much in that position where it's like, I think as amazing as these models are, and I think lawyers get a lot of value, we still have so many use cases where it's just like the models can't draft these very complex like merger agreements and things like that. They can't look at these massive case law research corpices or discovery corpuses or data rooms and like really understand them. And so I think there's a bunch of room both for the foundation models to get better, but also we're starting to think about like, can you, you know, custom build these reasoning models given this kind of. specific data you have. So I think there's huge room for improvement for the law. What about what about the back office? There's a lot of costs that go into law firms that are that non-legal work, operations, billing, you know, all that. Is that something, is that a focus at all for you? Is that something you think about or is there just enough work to be done on the client side? Would you do like a legal billing product too? Yeah, I mean, I think that's something we've thought

Starting point is 03:11:53 about of, you know, partnering with the folks doing that in the future. We've had law firms ask, can you, you know, help us automate parts of how we do billing? We have a bunch of firms that just buy Harvey seats to do some of this back office work again. And then there's clients that have asked about, you know, can you help us build spend management, things like that? But I think right now the focus is still kind of building the product for lawyers for law firms. We have a question from the chat. Is the company named after Harvey Specter, the fictional lawyer from Suits or Harvey Dent, the Batman villain, who I think also had a law degree? Harvey Specter.

Starting point is 03:12:27 Harvey Specter. There we go. Makes sense. It's a great character. I want to talk about costs, obviously, tons of revenue coming in the door. Also, we're seeing this weird phenomenon. Maybe it's another weird, but like with test time inference, reasoning, you want to put, you know, GPT, what was the Arc AGI? They were putting $2,000 of inference behind every task just to crack that puzzle. If I'm, you know, coming to you and I want, you know, to really,

Starting point is 03:12:55 make sure that the AI is checking its work fully. I probably want to put a ton of tokens behind that. What does the cost structure look like? How does that evolve over time? What is, what are the relevant changes that could happen and changes in the landscape? We saw the open source model come out from open AI at the same time, even if you're running, even if you switch to open source today, you still have to pay for energy and GPUs and stuff. So how does the cost side of the business evolve over the next couple of years? Yeah, I think. I think our bet kind of from early on has been focused much more on like capabilities. These models are going to get cheaper as you scale, get economies of scale, you can kind of solve

Starting point is 03:13:34 these problems. I would say right now our cost structure is similar to, you know, if you're using like a chat GPT where, you know, like as amortized over the tasks, you have some tasks that are low compute, some that are a lot. I think people is actually one of the very unique domains where you have these tasks where I want to draft a motion and typically this is going to cost 250,000 I want to do document review and this can cost a million dollars. And so you have these specific problems where you can actually just run models over every single document through just a ton of compute at this. And so we're starting to kind of explore like what do those different models look like if you're doing tasks like that. But yeah.

Starting point is 03:14:13 Lessons from Atrium, lessons from Clear Spire, lessons from binding a actual law firm to a technology company. seems like it hasn't not doing that certainly hasn't hurt you but did you know yeah and I'm sure I'm sure you got a lot of investors that say why don't you sell the work instead of the software exactly yeah we actually we actually had the opposite like when Winston and I started the company we talked to the founders of Atrium and like 30 of the folks that worked at Atrium and actually Jason Kwan who at the time was the GC of Open AI was at Y Combinator when they did AETRium and actually Jason Kwan who at the time was the GC of OpenAI I was at Y Combinator when they did Atrium and Sam was as well. And so we kind of like mentioned that and they were like, you guys should focus on building

Starting point is 03:14:59 tech business. And for us, it seems like the scalable play here is like we don't want to build a professional service firm ourselves. We want to enable every law firm, every professional service firm to kind of become the next generation of firm. Yeah, it makes so much sense. Microsoft Excel, their team didn't build an investment bank. And yet it's used by every investment bank.

Starting point is 03:15:21 And that will continue for a long time. Anyway, I think we have to jump to the next guest. Thank you for coming on. Thank you so much for coming on. This is really fun. Incredible progress. Congratulations on all the growth. Huge.

Starting point is 03:15:32 We'll talk to you soon. Bye. And up next, we have another massive gone moment. Let's bring in Kareem from Clay. We'll get the update from him. Welcome to the stream. Kareem, Clay, AI. How you doing?

Starting point is 03:15:47 What's going on? How you doing? Give us the. latest. Give us the update. What's new in your world? What do you do? Break it down for us. I can give you all those things. Excited to be here. Thanks for having you. Yeah. Well, today we announced that we raised a hundred million from Alphabet's capital G. Congratulations. Thank you. That's a $3.1 billion dollar valuation. Wow. Three jet blues. That's crazy. Amazing.

Starting point is 03:16:18 We've been dogged on jet blue a little bit. That is fantastic. So, so classic. Classic over success you started the company like a few months ago yeah like eight years ago yeah so I was gonna say so the story so give us give us like the journey how you got here because I think like you guys have been a massive beneficiary of all limbs from what I know over the last few years but it was not a was not an overnight success I'll call it a spiral yeah I mean we started the company with the idea of how do we give the power of programming to an order of magnitude more people?

Starting point is 03:16:57 And I was saying it took me some time to reformulate that to, how do we give that to what we call go-to-market engineers? So it's like half of the company can't code but has all of these ideas of how to grow the company. And Clay basically gives them the power to program revenue instead of just program software. Let's make a lot more concrete. There's been this cool wave of designers going. from zero X engineers to one X engineers and that's had a lot of a lot of benefits in organizations but what does that actually look like concretely on a go-to-market

Starting point is 03:17:32 team is that just generating emails faster managing a CRM like what are we actually talking about in terms of yeah the actually like most important part is who should you reach out to that's actually like I would say 60% of kind of like there's two ways to grow your company either you find new customers or you expand existing ones. If we just talk about finding new customers, 60% of that is finding the right person, right? And then kind of like reaching them at the right time is another 20%. So what we do is, let me give you an example. One of our customers, they have a ton of people just going on Google Maps, looking at all the different locations that they sell to, finding

Starting point is 03:18:14 warehouses, and then manually counting the number of parking spots that that warehouse has, because that's a good indicator if they're a good customer. And so we can use Google Maps API and LLMs to do that counting for them. Oh, that makes a tons of us. Yeah. So really, most of it is about like account selection and finding the right people. And then the second part is, you know, that they just raise a round of funding like us. Was there some kind of new news story that did they just hire a few people in a department that you're selling to?

Starting point is 03:18:45 And it's very specific to what your company does in their product. Got it. Is this, every of us this question on the show before, but it feels pretty common that, you know, some random private equity firm will just be spamming people on the internet trying to buy their companies. Oftentimes there's probably good targeting. Oftentimes there's bad targeting. How close are we to just like eliminating those emails that are just kind of those out that outreach? The spray and prey outreach. When is spray and prey era going to end? I hope now. I mean, I think that that's kind of like one of our top goals is if you actually, I think you can think of it as what if you actually put in the effort and the thoughtfulness into figuring out who actually wants your product. One, you reduce spam and two, you actually increase like your own productivity. It's just that that's hard to do at scale.

Starting point is 03:19:43 And the best companies like ramp, like there's a lot of companies who figured out how to do that internally. what Clay is doing is giving that to every company. And really what that means is that businesses can find each other faster and more accurately. So I think it should end up benefiting everyone. That makes sense. Anything else? $100 million. How are you going to spend it?

Starting point is 03:20:10 Hopefully we don't spend it. Yeah. Always a good play. Yeah. I think that one of the key really exciting things about Clay's, that we have this huge community that has emerged around us. So there's claygencies, so people who implement clay. Oh, that makes sense, yeah.

Starting point is 03:20:29 There's like 60 clubs in 29 countries where people meet up to talk about different techniques. Because if you think about it, in sales, like you're always figuring out how to be creative, how to be unique. And clay is a tool that lets you do that. I almost think of it like Ableton is for music or like you said, Figma's for designers. Yeah. Clay is for go-to-market teams. They're doing deals. Interesting.

Starting point is 03:20:50 Exactly. So we want to use that money to support that community. So we're having a conference actually sculpt in September in San Francisco. So we're going to do more events like that. And then there's a lot of investment into the product. We're just touching the surface of what we can build. Yeah. Is there any functionality to share workflows or create some sort of marketplace for workflows?

Starting point is 03:21:16 Like, you know, yes, there are agencies on top of Shopify that do. design, but then there are also templates. And so you gave some examples of, you know, new funding announcement in my category. That seems like something that I could be able to just pull off the shelf and not even, not even build from scratch within Clay. Yeah, totally. I feel like you should really join our team. This is exactly. There you go. I'm looking at right now. Yeah. So we'll leave it there. Yeah, we'll leave it there. Well, good luck. Very exciting time. And congratulations on the math. massive round. Awesome. I appreciate it.

Starting point is 03:21:51 Thanks for having you. We'll talk to you. We'll talk to you. Bye. Good stuff. Well, John, I got to get on with London. And I'm sure you got to get on with Taipei. I do have to get on with Taipei. Why don't we end it there? Thank you for tuning into the show today. Thanks to everyone in the chat. I agree. The deeper the V-neck, the more funding you get. That's right. Good strategy. It's a good, good. I didn't say it, but I think it's true. A hundred million dollar deal. Really deep V looking good. I, you know,

Starting point is 03:22:19 the next round is down at the belly button. It was funny because clearly you could see the bottom of the VNAC if we had shown the full screen, but we have a ticker. And so the ticker made it look like, you don't know where that thing ends. It could just kick it go forever. But Palmer Lucky has made. He's actually a vest.

Starting point is 03:22:35 Palmer Lucky has made the Hawaiian T-shirt iconic. Maybe Kareem makes the DV iconic at Klai. You get good energy. I was into it. Anyway. Awesome folks. Thank you so much for watching. Leave us five stars on Apple.

Starting point is 03:22:48 Podcast and Spotify. leave us some reviews, leave us some reviews, send us some notes, send us some reply to some threads, whatever you want to do. Whatever you want to do. We'll talk to you. Have a great evening. Bye. See you soon.

TBPN - Apple Unleashes $100B Buyback, Palantir Crushes Earnings, OpenAI's New Open Source Model | Alex Albert, Scott Kupor, Kyle Harrison, Brielle Terry, Sean Henry, Andi Duro, Gabe Pereyra, Kareem Amin

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