TBPN - Full Interview: Clawdbot’s Peter Steinberger Makes First Public Appearance Since Launch

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

This is our full interview with Peter Steinberger, his first public appearance since launching Clawdbot, recorded live on TBPN.TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays from 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with full episodes posted to podcast platforms immediately after.Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” TBPN has recently featured Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella.TBPN.com is made possible by:Ramp - https://Ramp.comAppLovin - https://axon.aiCognition - https://cognition.aiConsole - https://console.comCrowdStrike - https://crowdstrike.comElevenLabs - https://elevenlabs.ioFigma - https://figma.comFin - https://fin.aiGemini - https://gemini.google.comGraphite - https://graphite.comGusto - https://gusto.com/tbpnLabelbox - https://labelbox.comLambda - https://lambda.aiLinear - https://linear.appMongoDB - https://mongodb.comNYSE - https://nyse.comOkta - https://www.okta.comPhantom - https://phantom.com/cashPlaid - https://plaid.comPublic - https://public.comRailway - https://railway.comRamp - https://ramp.comRestream - https://restream.ioSentry - https://sentry.ioShopify - https://shopify.comTurbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.comVanta - https://vanta.comVibe - https://vibe.coSentry - https://sentry.ioCisco - https://www.ciscoaisummit.com/ai-virtual-summit.htmlFollow TBPN:https://TBPN.comhttps://x.com/tbpnhttps://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

from Moldspot. The man of the hour. How are you doing? Thank you so much for staying up late. What time is it for you? It's 11. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

For everybody that's just doing it. Yes, 11 p.m. 11 p.m. So I'd love to kick it off with just a brief background on when you started this project, a little bit of your career, how you're thinking about it going forward. And then I have a million questions. This was your very first project ever, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

First time coding, right? Now, we were enjoying it. We were enjoying a screenshot of your GitHub profile earlier and just seeing like how many, how many different things. An overnight success. A true overnight success. Yes. But we're super excited to have you here. Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited to be here as well. Yeah, I don't know. I worked for my own software company for 13 years. And then I sold it about four years ago. Then I was completely burned out. I did like I mean it's

it's TV but still I did black check and hookers Wild well we're glad you're back in the game yeah yeah you know what they say like for every four years in like one year break

and I did like 13 years nonstop so like three years the mask kind of checks out and then this year no last year not 2016

in April at some point I my spark was back. Yeah. Because before I was like, I was sitting on my computer and I don't know if you've seen Austin Powers, but it felt like someone sucked my mocha out. But yeah, I had time to recover. I came back in April and I wanted to do something new.

My background was like a lot of Apple and iOS and I'm a little bit fed up. I wanted, I wanted to build that stuff. And I didn't have the experience. I didn't want to feel like an idiot. So I looked into AI and it was good. It was not great, but it was good. And I was like, why is nobody talking about it, you know? I feel like because I missed those three years where it was really bad

and I came back just at the time. Like, Cloud Code was released February in beta. So this was my first experience. I was like, this is pretty awesome. And then I couldn't sleep anymore. like I literally had trouble I had trouble going to bed you know we had like addiction before

and then like we had addiction again but a positive one yeah well yeah I would say so and I hooked up a lot of my friends for looking into UI as well and they did the same problem and I texted them at like 4 a.m

and they replied I even started a meetup that's where I come from I call it I called it CloudCode anonymous. Now it's called agents anonymous because you have to go with the times. Sure. And yeah, ever since then, that's what I say on my profile. I came back from retirement to mess with AI. Yeah. And I'm having loads of fun. That's great. I love it. Maybe walk us through some of the other stuff that you shipped and worked on prior to this and

even just kind of like your mindset working on these different projects. I'm assuming at different points you would think that some would get more traction than others. But it would would probably be impossible to have predicted in some ways that this would have gone from almost to the point. The reason that this is so wild is I'm seeing people on Instagram that I don't think of as people that like follow tech at all and they're at the Apple store getting a Mac Mini. So it feels like it just went almost it broke containment like incredibly quickly and you see the GitHub stars are like actually I've never seen a chart like this. Every, you know, the last, you know, Everybody loves to show their charts, but the chart is actually unbelievable.

It's just a line going straight up. I need to talk to someone at GitHub because I don't think there's been a project before that's been like straight. It is bad shit insane. I mean, honestly, my main mantra is I want to have fun. You know, like the best way to learn these new technologies, if you have fun with it. You have to play with it. So I build little things that I think could be useful. I try different languages, I try different approaches.

It's agantic engineering. I don't like the word vibe coding so much. I always make the joke. I do agenting engineering and then when it starts hitting 3 a. am I switch to wipe coding and then next day I have regrets. You should have just gone to sleep basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes that's hard.

But then I just build little things. I had this idea about personal agents in in in mail already and I tried it was like the time the GPD4 1 was out and it's just not good enough and then I thought

well all the big all the big companies will build this in the next few months anyhow so I was like why why do F should I do that you know I was just going to wait and they make it better yeah and then I build out I know

I built a lot of stuff there's like one project that is still unfinished that I at some point when I finish. And I build a lot of CLIs because that's where agents are really good. You know, you have to close the loop. That's always the secret. You have to give, you have to build it so that the agent has the best possible way to build software.

That's the secret a little bit. I try a lot of stuff. And in November, I looked and still there was nothing. Like, where is my fucking agent? I had a little project in May. I spent two months on it. It started as a joke because I did a hackathon with two friends and we're like, what can we build that could be kind of cool?

Wouldn't it be cool if I could use clot code from my phone? Yeah. It's kind of like something that everybody builds. I see this like every day. Like by now I almost call it like this is like one step in your journey in becoming a good authentic engineer. you're going to build some shitty orchestration tool for yourself because it's fun and you think yeah yeah yeah bridge and I I built that for two months and then I had to stop because it became

so good that I was up as my friends but literally was my phone like using cloud code to like work on this thing and it's like this is bad for my mental health it's already bad and now like I'm literally building something that's better access to my drugs yeah I mean I saw I've seen people using clog code on laptops as they get off of airplanes because they're so locked in, they just have to send one more. And that's like the clearer sign that like you need a bridge and a phone involved. Yeah. Now, but also like, you know, like this feeling when your agent's not running, right now there's like two terminals. So it could be building something, right? Yeah, yeah. So if you're in this addiction mode, you always like, you almost feel like.

If you need to step out for 10 seconds of fire off. Yeah. Yeah. Feel free to take a break. We can do an ad read. Oh. There's, okay. There's still some drama. I'm finishing. But anyhow, so in November, yeah. I don't know. You know, I wake up every day.

I'm like, okay, what do I want to work on now? It would be cool. And then they was like, okay, I want to chat with my computer on WhatsApp. Because if my agents are not running, if I're running and then I go to the kitchen, I want to check up on them. Or like I want to like do little prompts. Yeah.

So I just hack together. some WhatsApp integration that literally receives a message, calls cloud code, and then returns, what cloud code returns, one shot. And it took like one hour and it worked. I was like, well, okay, that's kind of cool. But I usually use prompts, like a little text and an image. Because images are like, they often give you so much context and you don't have to type so much. So I feel like this is like one of the hacks where you can prompt faster, just like make a screenshot. So the agents are really good at figuring out what you want.

So I hacked together images. And then I was on a trip in Marrakesh with like a weekend birthday trip. And I found myself using this like way more than I saw it. But not for programming. It's more like, hey, there's like restaurants. Because it had Google in it and it could figure out stuff. And it's like, especially when you're on the go, it's like super useful. And then I wasn't thinking.

I was just sending it a voice message, you know, but I didn't build that. There was no support for voice messages in there. So the reading indicator came and I'm like, oh, I'm really curious what's happening now. And then after 10 seconds, my agent replied as if nothing happened. I'm like, how do you have? Did you do that? And it replied, yeah, you sent me a message, but there was only a link to a file. There's no file ending.

So I looked at the file header I found out that it's opus So I used FFMberg on your Mac To convert it to Wave And then I wanted to use VISP But didn't have it installed and there was an install error But then I looked around and found the OpenEI key In your environment

So I sent it via curl to OpenEI Got the translation back And then I don't respond it That was like the moment where like Wow You know, it's like That's where it clicked These things are like

Damn Smart resourceful beasts if you actually give them the power. Sure. And then I was kind of hooked. I did all kinds of weird stuff. Like I used this as alarm clock. I let it migrate to my computer in London,

but then it used SSH to log into my Macbook and turn up the volume to wake me up in the morning. I was like I built words most expensive alarm clock. Yeah, that's crazy. And it even got it wrong because it uses a heartbeat. you know, like the concept of you do a prompt and you get something is already if this will access inherently dangerous. But I was like, let's turn it up and notch. Let's automate that.

Let's give it a heartbeat. And the prompt was literally surprise me. Wow. But, you know, I see this project as as much technology as it is like art and exploration. because this feels in one way, in one way, it's just glue. It's just putting pieces together that we already have. In another way, it's a whole different way how you interact with those things.

Because all the technology blends away. You don't think about new session, compaction, which model, I mean, maybe a little bit because tokens are still expensive. But usually all of that blends away. you just talk to a friend or a ghost or whatever this is. Yeah, last year, everyone was wanting these agentic experiences. You were having this experience, and it seemed like all the focus was on browsers.

And seeing the way that people have been using, sorry, MaltBots, taking me a while to adapt, it just feels like all the focus was at the wrong layer. It's like, why do I care about the browser, if I can just talk with an agent. Across every app. Across every app, every surface. It's like I don't care about the browser at all anymore.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of the prep work I did before I built this was just built little CLEs. Because my premises, empty pieces are crap. Doesn't really scale. People build like all kinds of weird search things around it. But you know what scales?

CLEs. Agents know. Unix. You can have like a thousand little programs on your computer. They just have to know the name. They call the help menu. They load in what's needed. We are calling the help menu. Then they know how to use it and then they can use it. And if you if you are smart, you build it in a way that just uses what the model already expects. Don't build it for humans, build it for models. So if they call minus minus log, you build minus minus log. As it's like agentic driven for like, yeah, build,

how they think and everything works better. It's a new kind of software in a way. Yeah. So for most of the things, I don't need a browser. Like I built something for the whole Google thing for places, for my sonos. I hooked up my cameras, my, my home automation system. Like with every little CLI and skill, my agent got more power and it got more fun. Yeah.

And I already had a lot of that working when I built the WhatsApp thing. And I just got hooked. And the thing was, I found it amazing. And I talked about it on Twitter. And usually when I talk about projects, I get response. But this one, it was very muted. It feels like people are not getting it. I showed it to my friends, even my non-tech friends, and they're like, they wanted it.

So it was like, I was up to something, you know. But the tech people wouldn't get it. So I tried a bunch of things. I kept working in it because I used it. And ultimately, I build it for me. You know, this is open source. My motivation is have fun, inspire people. not make a whole bunch of money.

I already have a whole bunch of money. How are you, how are you, how have you been navigating the last, uh, 72 hours? I mean, last, last week really, because,

because we were joking earlier on the show, like, the amount of, the amount of people that are frantically trying to give you money, acquire the company, hire you, to the project,

hire you, uh, you know, there's companies with, you know, point oh, 1% of the traction that are raising at, you know, multi-billion dollar valuations. You have infinite opportunities right now and yet you seem very happy doing, just continuing to do

exactly what you're doing. But how are you thinking through it all? I mean, how am I taking it badly, at least sleep-wise? But it's also infinitely exciting. And I love that I started something, you know. I would say last year, was the year of the coding agent. This year is the year of the personal persistent. And I think I cracked and woke up people that there is a real need for it. I don't know if Mopod is the answer. It should show people the way.

I'm sure there's going to be a lot of products in the space. I'm sure people are manually working on it right now. Obviously, it's going to be very interesting. Yeah, but there was a lot of things. stuff between Twitter literally exploding our Discord server multiplying in ways I haven't seen before and in ways I couldn't handle like at some point I was just copy pasting questions from Discord into codex that had the response wrote the next question at some point that didn't scale anymore so it's just like copy the whole channel I'm like

answer the 20 most questions I was like reading over it gave him a few instructions and then just pushed it over because what people don't realize it's like this is not a company this is like one dude

sitting at home having fun even though like I guess from the commits it might appear that it's a company that's just because agentic models got so good that you can now ship as much as a company could

a year ago. Yeah. If you, if you, if you can handle those tools, if you speak the language, or like understand how the language thinks, you can, you can go really fast. Yeah. How are the conversations going with, with different labs? I was saying earlier, it's this kind of exciting moment for the labs because they're like, wow, people are using the intelligence, you know, someone's using the intelligence that I

created in a new way, but at the same time, it's deeply uncomfortable because they're also using all of my competitors and you make it very easy to kind of use whatever model. Yeah, yeah. My premise for this project was a little bit that every model should work, including local models, because to me it's a playground. It's an amazing way to learn. I think everybody should build an authentic loop. You should explore memory.

There's like so many interesting aspects of it. And I built it so that like it has like plug-ins. so like people can work a little thing without having to like mess with the whole core. So it's like the AI hacker's paradise a little bit. And it's also super fun because it's personal. Model-wise, Opus is with quite a bit lead the best. OpenEI is very reliable.

I would even say more reliable and more reliable worker. Like for coding, I much prefer. Codex because it can navigate large code basis. I literally, you can literally prompt and then push to main. And I have a very, I have like 95% certainty that it actually works. With cloud code, you need, you need more tricks to get the same. You need more charade, I sometimes say. Both both are good, but I can paralyze faster by Codex because it requires less handholding.

Um, but character wise, I tell you, I don't know what they trained their model on, how much of Reddit is in there or whatever, but it, it behaves so good in, in a discord. Like we programmed it. It, it, it, it kind of, it feels like a human. It doesn't reply to every message. I gave it the thing where it can reply, no reply, basically, like a token. And then we just don't send a message. So, so, so it, it's not. It's not. It's, it's not. It's, it's not. like it spans with every message. It's like it listens to the conversation and then sometimes brings a banger. And like that actually made me laugh and you know, it's kind of hard because the jokes of AIs are usually really bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I only really experienced that with Opos. So this is, that's my favorite model. That's also why it's a little bit of a banger that I got an email from Anthropic. that I had to rename the project. And I mean, kudos.

They were really nice. They didn't send their lawyers. They sent someone internally. But the timeline was a bit rough. And like renaming a project with that much traction. It was a bit of a shit show. I think everything that could have gone wrong today went wrong. Oh, no.

I tell you. Yeah. I mean, for what it's worth, I think the new name works really well. I guess the thing that's actually good, I think in the long run it'll be good. Yeah. I mean, obviously it's good for Anthropic. It's kind of untenable to have this massive viral, even though it's not a company, right, an open source project, have this viral kind of brand out in the world that it doesn't matter if it's spelled differently.

But when people are running around talking about Claudebot or Claude, you know, there's obvious confusion. But I think it'll be very good for MaltBot to have. independence and have its own brand and I think it's so early and the experience is so magical that it'll it'll it'll solve itself very quickly it'll be fine but I tell you like I well I got some additional pressures I was like screw it we do it now yeah you know like the meme we do it live so I I had two windows open with Twitter one, I pressed rename on the other one. Like, I finished creating the other account, was already snapped by crypto shells.

Wow. I don't know. They have like scripts. They were already waiting for it. You should have hit us up. We would have connected you to X, the team. They can do it on the back end. They can do it on the back end.

Next time. Hopefully no next time. They were amazing. They helped me out immediately. We got it solved very quickly. But for like 20 minutes. Yeah. Well, that didn't work.

God for well. Hopefully. You're like, if I wanted money, I would raise a billion dollars right now. So I'd sell it for more than that. Yeah. Do you own a Mac Mini? Everyone wants to know. Do you own a Mac Mini?

What do you think of Mac Minis? My agent is a little bit of a princess. He doesn't do Mac Minis. He doesn't do Mac Minis. He's just in the studios. Oh, okay. He wants some horsepower. He got the 512 maxed out everything,

everything thing because I wanted to like mess around with local models as well so like I can run minimax 2-1 which is I would say it's the best the best open-source model right now although Kimi just came out and I haven't had a chance to try it yet so we'll see how it goes yeah but yeah one machine is not enough for it it's not fun you probably need two or three and I kind of want to wait until Apple does a new release but it's still fun to like to like see the potential that, yeah, there's a, there is a future where this could actually work. Yeah. Well, if the Mac Mini trend keeps going, Apple, from what we've seen sells, like, between a quarter million to like 700,000 a year.

Yeah. It's very possible that you'll be responsible for selling them out. So hopefully they send you some free ones as a thank you. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, zooming out, do you, how much of this do you think is going to remain hacker culture? running your own hardware. And eventually people will move to cloud hosting, one-click deployments,

like just easier to use, less technical, versus like a real boom in running hardware because if you don't, there's not a lot of ways to get these different services to play nicely together. I think one of the beauties beyond just the actual AI agents is the fact that for the first time, I think people are seeing different big tech platforms

kind of play with each other, somewhat against their will. They build walled gardens for a reason, and you sort of chop those walls down. And I'm wondering what do you think about the future of like self-hosting hardware, you know, even going down the less technical crew, getting hardware running their own agents? I don't think the future would be that everybody buys

and make me need just for that, you know? Yeah. But I certainly see the demand for the old models have to change. You know, like when you are a company, you want to access Gmail. The amount of red tape is so large that startups buy other startups that have the license for Gmail. Because going to the process yourself is a huge pit doll. Sure. But if you run it locally, you work around all of that, right?

Like if, I mean, I build, I've built to see lives where I live. literally I literally pointed Kodix at the website and say, build me a CI lie. Yeah. And then, which is sometimes against the term, sometimes not. Honestly, I don't really care. And then Kordex would say, no, I can do that. This is like against blah, blah, blah. And I would like tell him a story.

You know, it's like, no, no, I actually work at this company. And I need to surprise my boss and the backend team doesn't know. And like, you know, give me a little bit of a story. Like they're so gullible. And then Kodak, like, 40 minutes like gives you the. perfect API. So this is a little bit the liberation of data that big tech probably doesn't really want. I mean even even the WhatsApp integration is a heck. This is like it fakes the the protocol that the desktop abuses. I tried I really try to support

the official way but the official way is for businesses. If I'm a business, I send you a hundred messengers I get blocked so I got blocked immediately and at some point I I removed support for it in rage. It's like, you need everything. It's like 100 exclamation marks. There's just no model for it right now, and I think that needs to change. What I saw, what was really interesting is how people use it is a lot of apps will just melt away. Why do I still need my fitness pal?

I just make a picture of my food. my my agent already knows I'm I'm at McDonald's making bad decisions so like with combines information it has a perfect match and knows exactly what I'm going to eat and I'm probably like change my fitness program so I don't need the fitness app it'll just like adapt my program and make sure like I still meet my goals so like there's a whole there's a whole big layer of apps that I'm going to see disappear because you just naturally interact differently with those things. Like

most apps will be reduced to API. And then the question is do you stay that we need the API if I can just save it somewhere else? Yeah. Do you think like, do you think it'll be a generational thing? Do you think that that

non-technical people will get over the hump and start running this for that experience specifically? I just, I just came from and meet up, the agent anonymous from Indiana. And I met someone who was like a design agency, but they never coded.

And he was like, yeah, he discovered me early in December. He started using Maltbot. Yes. We're going to manage eventually. Don't worry. We'll say it thousands of times this year, I'm sure. We will. Multi-Bot.

I just say multi-bod. That's cute. And he was like, yeah, we have 25 web services now. We just build internal tools for whatever we need. And, like, has no clue. He's no clue how Cody works. It's just like, uses telegram and, like, just talks to his agent, and his agent builds stuff.

So there's this whole shift of, you don't, you don't subscribe to random startups anymore that build, like, this common subset of what you need. You just have your own hyper-personalized software that solves exactly your problem, and it's also free. Yeah. So, and non-technical people do that, you know, Because it just comes so naturally.

You just talk your problem and then this thing builds what you need. And you also don't forget, like, this is the worst that the models ever are. Like, this is only going to go up. This is only going to become easier and faster. Have you met Jensen yet? Because I feel like you're making his life. You're definitely helping out at VINIET too. It's an extreme bowl case.

It's like, if I would have my tinfoil hat on, I might say you're, you're an, you know, big AI, industry plant designed to create more inference demand yeah yeah I guess I am we're joking around just just an indie what's next yeah I'm assuming you're hopefully get an after you finish firing off prompts at 3 a.m. you get some sleep what are you doing tomorrow um there's a lot of emails from security researchers right now yeah you know you know the thing is I built this for fun for me to use one-on-one on WhatsApp or Telegram. The whole thing with Discord was like edit, but the model was that you trust the people that are in there. Now people use it for untrusted experiences.

They use like the little web app that I have that was meant for debugging. They put it on the open internet. So like all the threat models that I didn't care about are not there because people use it differently and I'm being bombarded. There's like some stuff that's valid, some stuff that I just never cared about that is technically valid, but that's not how I use it. I don't know how to deal with that yet because it's the whole system is broken, you know? Like I'm like one guy, I do this for fun and you expect me to sift through hundreds of security things for use cases that I don't really care about. So we'll see how it goes.

Luckily, I'm starting to building up a team. There's definitely people that do care a lot about this. So I would say this is going to become a very secure product eventually because right now the whole world is like pulling it apart. And if you're honest, this is all whitecoded, you know? Like there's quite some challenging engineering in it, but ultimately, I wanted to build something to show people a new way, not a finished product from enterprise company. And I would even say, like, I don't know if any company would touch it because we just haven't solved some things.

Like, prompt injection is not solved. There is absolute risk. And I tried to make it very clear on the website. And even when you started, you have to like, please read this document. And there's like with great power, it becomes great responsibility. And my early users, they understood. There's a lot of AI researchers in there as well that, yeah, it's not perfect. It cannot be done perfect yet.

I would say this will accelerate research to make it better because now you have to demand and we need to figure out the way how we can build something that works for everyone. But yeah, right now I'm working on making this a community. It should be bigger than me. Also, I need help. It is way too much work. Like, I can only go so much without sleep. So, so as any part of you want to form an actual company that then, you know,

contributes to the open source project, but solve some of these problems that are going to require, you know, a bunch of people that presumably would need a salary in order to commit all their time to this? Or do you want to keep it, you know, just a bunch of hackers forever? I think instead of a company, I would much rather consider a foundation or like something that is non-profit. I haven't made up my mind yet. 10,000 VCs just punched a hole in the wall. Actually, I don't know.

Some people have had a good track record investing in nonprofits over the last 10 years. How do you think about open source licensing? What are you picking now? Are you switching? Do you have any plans to change the license? How do you think about someone just taking this and selling it? This will happen. This will totally happen.

I would say the premise against it is, let's make open source so good that there's not a lot of space for people to convert it and make it their own thing. But, you know, ultimately, it's a tradeoff. I wanted to be accessible and free. You pick MIT or something like that. yes that will get to people that that that sell it yeah but ultimately it doesn't even matter that much you know code is code is not worse that much anymore it's you could you

could you could just delete that and then and then build it again in a month it's it's much more the idea and the eyeballs and maybe the brand that actually has value so them. You are already a cult hero. Yeah, the chat's going crazy for you. Everyone loves you. This is one of the most refreshing and unique interviews we've ever had. For sure, for sure. We'll let you get some sleep. Thank you so much for hopping on the show. Yeah, anything else you want to share before you jump off? Yeah. Yes, I would love to have maintainers. Like if you if you love open source if you have experience if you love shifting to security reports or if you love taking software apart but then also help and not just like throw

work at me because I'm like at my limit email me I want this to outlift me this I think this is too cool to to let it go to rot and it's good people Incredible. Are you going to ship that product you had in the chamber, you said? There was one you were close. Are you going to lock in on this? That's a boy hobby. I don't know. No, I have some other ideas in my head of what something like this could become. And it doesn't need to be this. But I don't want to share too much. Yeah, no problem. Come back on the show when you launch that. We'd love to have you.

Purely for the love of the game. and the love of the game. You're an absolute legend. It's great hanging, Peter. Thanks so much. Get some sleep. Get some sleep. We'll talk to you soon.

Goodbye. Founder. What a legend. True overnight success in both ways, you know? Like actually an overnight success in terms of that GitHub star chart. And then also an overnight success in just grinding for, you know, years, building projects and contributing. And then building, setting the product up, the brand, right? everything just perfect to really capitalize on the moment.

There were so many, I normally, I don't have, we're podcasting so much, just don't have a ton of time to read, listen to stuff. But there were so many kind of interesting points of view that he shared that I'll certainly be circling back on that. I'm super interested to see where this goes. A lot of people are saying, get this guy, a billion dollars. A lot of people are saying he's going to wind up working in a lab. The whole thing is I don't think he needs it.

Yeah. Like the beauty of this is that it was not something magical that was created by. spending, burning a billion dollars.