TBPN - Google Gemini Strikes Back, China Hits NVIDIA on Antitrust | Bill Bishop, Pete Shadbolt, Sadi Khan, Lukas Czinger, Kyle Samani

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

(00:42) - Google Gemini Strikes Back (01:59) - TBPN in the WSJ (04:31) - Google Gemini's Comeback Breakdown (36:15) - China Hits NVIDIA on Antitrust (41:42) - Bill Bishop, an entrepreneur and former media executive, is the author of the Sinocism China Newsletter, which provides expert insights into Chinese politics and economics. In the conversation, he discusses China's antitrust investigation into Nvidia, highlighting the potential for significant fines and the strategic timing of the probe amid U.S.-China trade negotiations. He also examines the complexities surrounding TikTok's operations in the U.S., emphasizing the legal challenges and geopolitical considerations influencing the platform's future. (01:01:16) - Timeline Reactions (02:30:22) - Pete Shadbolt, co-founder and Chief Scientific Officer of PsiQuantum, a quantum computing company based in the Bay Area, discusses the company's journey from academic research to securing a $1 billion funding round aimed at building large-scale quantum computers. He highlights their focus on developing a million-qubit system by leveraging semiconductor manufacturing, partnerships with entities like GlobalFoundries, and collaborations with governments in Australia and the U.S. to establish quantum computing facilities. Shadbolt emphasizes the strategic importance of quantum computing, its potential applications in fields like chemistry and materials science, and the necessity of substantial investment and innovation to overcome technical challenges and achieve practical, error-corrected quantum systems. (02:44:43) - Sadi Khan, co-founder and CEO of Aven, discusses the company's innovative home equity-backed credit card, which offers homeowners the ability to secure lower interest rates and earn 2% unlimited cash back on all transactions. By streamlining the traditionally lengthy HELOC process to just 15 minutes through advanced automation, including remote wet signatures executed by robotic arms, Aven provides a seamless and efficient borrowing experience. Khan also highlights the company's recent Series E funding and emphasizes Aven's commitment to offering the lowest cost of capital to consumers, regardless of fluctuating interest rate environments. (02:51:41) - Lukas Czinger, Vice President of Operations, Automation, and Manufacturing at Divergent 3D, discusses the company's recent $290 million Series E funding round, which will enable the expansion of their Los Angeles campus and the establishment of new facilities across the U.S. He emphasizes the strategic importance of locating these facilities near key defense and automotive clients to enhance collaboration and logistics. Additionally, Czinger highlights the versatility of Divergent's digital manufacturing platform, capable of seamlessly producing diverse products without downtime, and shares updates on the Czinger 21C hypercar, noting multiple deliveries in the U.S. and Europe, with plans for future variants and models. (03:00:54) - Kyle Samani, co-founder and managing partner of Multicoin Capital, a leading cryptocurrency investment firm, discusses raising $1.65 billion in two weeks for Ford Industries, aiming to establish it as a top digital asset treasury company with aspirations of becoming a $50 billion publicly traded entity. He highlights the strategic team collaboration with Jump and Galaxy, emphasizes opportunities in mergers and acquisitions, and outlines plans to leverage capital market structures to enhance shareholder value. (03:11:47) - Timeline Reactions TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.comFigma - https://figma.comVanta - https://vanta.comLinear - https://linear.appEight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpnWander - https://wander.com/tbpnPublic - https://public.comAdQuick - https://adquick.comBezel - https://getbezel.com Numeral - https://www.numeralhq.comPolymarket - https://polymarket.comAttio - https://attio.com/tbpnFin - https://fin.ai/tbpnGraphite - https://graphite.devRestream - https://restream.ioProfound - https://tryprofound.comJulius AI - https://julius.aiturbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.comfal - https://fal.ai/Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.comhttps://x.com/tbpnhttps://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

watching tvpn today's monday september 15 2025 we are live from the tvpn ultrudeau the temple of technology the fortress of finance the capital of capital oh we got some uh we got some trust in the background got some trust we're trust up trust up uh we have made another improvement to the tbpn ultradome uh going to work on having more guests in person uh more fun activities we got a bunch more props It's going to be a great, great week, great month, great year, a decade, great lifetime. It's so fantastic to be back. It's so hard to be away from the Ultradome. It is. But we have some breaking news, of course. Gemini is at the top of the app store charts. We have some of our own breaking news. Actually, I don't know if we're not allowed to break this news yet.

Dylan, are we good to break the news? We are good to break the news. We're good to break the news. Let's tell everyone. So we are going to be having our first Mag 7 CEO on CBPN this week. And he is none other than Mark Zuckerberg. You can see a totally real picture of him here. So we're going to be taking the show on the road Wednesday. We're going to be up in the Bay live from MetaConnect. We're very excited.

There's going to be a bunch of other guests tuning in. I will wait to share the exact names, but they'll be going out on our X and our substack over the next couple of days. So very, very excited for this one. They have some crazy announcements, and we'll be there on the ground, recording live. It's all part of the long con to get meta on ramp. Ram.com. Time to sit, money, save both. Easy to use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more, all in one place. Go to ramp.com to get started.

So in other MAG 7 news, Gemini is surging. What about the MAG podcasting? Okay. We got to take me through it. This is the other. No, no, no. You can't do it whatever. This is more important.

This is amazing. They didn't put us in quotes. They didn't put us in quotes. They didn't put us in quotes. We made it. We made it. We finally arrived. A lot of people have been putting TBPN in quotes.

They're claiming that, like, you know. Oh, TBPN. PN, whatever that means, is that really the name of the show? Or is it something else? The journalist claimed historically that it was because we were a show. Yes. But it really, we were reading between. I learned that when you're writing in English class back in high school,

I learned that if it's a book title, you put it in italics. I thought quotes were only reserved for, you know, if you're not sure, and it's a quote from somebody else saying something, and you don't want to put it in your own words, you don't trust the source necessarily. I always viewed quotes as something of a point of skepticism. So it is fantastic to see that we have escaped the jail of quotes in the media. So very excited.

This one. So appropriate that it happened to the Wall Street Journal, one of our favorite publications. We have our favorite ever. This is, we will, a lot of people like to make comments about the legacy media. We will defend the Wall Street Journal with our lives. Randy Jacoby says, keep reading, fellas. It's quote, TBPN in paragraph one. I'm looking at the screenshots.

I see, no, no, no. paragraph one two three i i don't know i see i don't see any you got a different copy of the journal yeah what's going on uh coby brand jacobi we're putting you in the truth zone i don't know maybe maybe they added they added quotes later or something i don't know but um the copy that i have does not have it in quotes so i'm i'm happy and i'm sticking with it i've screenshoted it and i'm uh taking a victory anyways for those that don't know uh i hired dylan at party round back in 2021 yep uh he was my right-hand man through the chaos of the ZERP era, the joy. We did a bunch of work together that was that prior to TBPN was really the highlight of my career.

So very excited to have him on the team behind the scenes, helping us make the show better and better every day. Yeah, very excited. Anyways. Bigger and bigger things. You have some news you'd like to talk about. Yeah, the tech news. Anyway, the main news is restream. One live stream, 30 plus destinations, multi-stream reach your audience wherever they are.

Only possible the show is made possible because of restream. We are, of course, built on the back of a stream. But the real news is Ageny Midha over at Andrews and Horowitz says the Empire strikes back and shows a screenshot of worldwide Google Trends results for the past 90 days for Gemini versus chat GPT. And you can see that nanobanana launched late August, and Gemini has been surging in the worldwide results. And so I dug into this.

I have a bunch of thoughts on on what's going on with Google, Deep Mind and Gemini in particular. And then Ageny actually followed up a week later on September 14th and said, The Empire Goes Bananas, and shows that now Gemini has crossed ChatGPT in terms of worldwide, search results, which is even, you know, I think it's an important metric to be tracking. Gemini is also at the top of the App Store charts right now.

But... It's such a funny dynamic. It's like, like, you know, Google runs a large, you know, the largest search in the world, and then they're trying to get their alternative to search higher on the search rankings than their competitor running the technology. that they created. Yep. Yeah, it is a knockout, dragout fight

in the battle for the next AI platform. So I went and tried to get the even more up-to-date data from Google Trends, and it's true. Gemini is absolutely surging worldwide, and as of today, Gemini is significantly higher than chat GPT. Now, I think some of this is momentum-driven. I also needed to check,

is this related to astrology? because Gemini, of course, could be Gemini season. But Gemini season is in May and June, so it doesn't have anything to do with Gemini season, as far as I can tell. I should ask Gemini what the best, like if I were running Gemini, the AI application, what would be the best time of the year astrologically to, to like, you know, send it on marketing? Send it on marketing? Yeah, like what am I most likely to experience success? Well, so I wanted to understand a little bit more about the search interest and what's actually going on here. So I went to Google Trends and I started to segment by different regions and different time periods.

And if you go to the third slide, you'll see that in the United States, Gemini is seeing an uptick, but chat GPT is still dominant. And so you can see, so that is the worldwide data there, Jordy, you'll see. And then the next slide is, this is for the United States. And so for the United States, chat GPT is still dominant. You see this like up and down of peaks and troughs. I think those are weekends. And I think that you see a lot more chat GPT usage during the week. And then people kind of chill on the weekends, which is interesting dynamic.

There's also school stuff. Yeah, that's a school factor. Back to work. Yes. And so. I do, I wonder what that date. I mean, you can't necessarily. get that data for Google search itself, because people aren't Googling Google.

They're not Google searching Google search. Yeah, that's a good point. But you have to imagine, like, I'd probably use Google more on the weekdays. Probably, yeah, I think most people do. And so I wanted to know what was driving the worldwide surge in Gemini traffic. Scrolled around to a couple different areas, India is absolutely spiking. So if you go to the next slide, you will see right there, look at that chart. So Gemini is just kind of a flat line relative to Chat GPD and then just completely surged

just in the last few days. And so I think that that's what's driving the overall trend in Gemini dominance. Because if you go to, on the next slide I go to the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is similar to the US seeing a little bit of an uptick in Gemini searches, but it's not completely overtaken Chat GPD. So there's a, there's a few different narratives here. could just be Google has stronger penetration in certain international countries and they're pushing different things there with marketing or deals. There's a whole bunch of different dynamics that

can drive, even just A-B tests on how quickly a, like, how quickly are they routing you to that particular app? Like you forget that like when you have a billion users, billions of users, just setting the default user experience flow can route a ton of traffic to one thing all of a sudden. So I got prompted. I did a Google search this morning and I got prompted to use. that AI? Search overviews? No, no, no. No.

I got prompted to the AI mode. AI mode does not count as Gemini. That's not what we're talking about here, which is interesting. But yes, I mean, it's all the same, and I'm sure you go through the flow. I just assume they were counting that as the gate under the hood. So AI mode is within the Google search product. Gemini is its own product. And to be clear, Gemini is doing really well.

So qualitatively, V-O-3, incredible. I've made a bunch of fun videos, everything from Mottie's. from monster truck videos for my son to promo ads for what you know we do here at tbpn uh v o3 i was not a daily jemini user i had not paid google any money for gemini's pro plan i was paying for the chat chepd ptian v03 got me to fork over 250 a month which i think is probably around 500 a month now because i didn't cancel and uh and i'm very happy with that like it's been a good value trade and i feel like i'm getting access to a frontier model that I can't get anywhere else and so it's worth every penny.

Nanobanana has also produced incredible results and a lot of people are are citing the massive growth as driven by nanobanana. Now I haven't been I haven't been going bananas. Have you been going bananas lately? I've tried a little bit. I just I don't really have something in my workflow. It feels like nanobanana might almost be more useful if you're doing like professional. level work. I've been sort of like interested in using it, but it hasn't become part of my daily workflow. I think when we're traveling, you have a little less time to make memes and yeah, maybe that's it. You probably would have. I did find that it was fantastic at that specific thing. You can and I saw Dylan Patel post this. You can take you can take a meme template and two images and just say nanobanana like fill it in and it will just do it. It'll just basically do the Photoshop of like or like you know the layout to put the images over each other and it just does it flawlessly.

And so normally I would be going to something. That seems to be enough to take Google from three to four trillion. I would agree. Normally I go to something on like image flip and then I have to like type in the text and then put in the images and it's this web UI that's like decent. It works pretty well. But being able to just do that all in a chat box,

it seems really cool. Anyway, quantitatively, Gemini is crushing. It has 483,000. and ratings. A little hot on the levels there. I love that. Oh, Bobby in the chat says it's Google's birthday. So happy birthday, Google.

We are celebrating you today. It's like, yeah, it was a little hot. So in the iOS App Store, Gemini is now number one on the product of the charts. Google celebrates its birthday on September 27. But September 15th, 15th was when the Google Google.com domain name was registered. Domains are more important than anything else.

So I agree. Today is Google's birthday in my book. So to comp Gemini and ChatGPT, Gemini, about half a million ratings, chat GPT has almost four million ratings. So ChadGPT is still the dominant app in the US iOS app store, but Gemini is certainly growing. And there's an open question, you know,

I'm still noodling on like, how much is the Gemini growth driven by nanobanana versus back to school, back to work versus like international efforts and stuff? Tyler, do you have a thesis? I don't, we don't have your mic right now. Let's turn up, can we turn up Tyler's levels?

Hello, hello, hello? Just yell. Okay. There we go. So I'm looking at chat GBT when 4O image came out and it was March 25th. If you look at the trends, there's like literally no spike in Google search traffic. For images in chat GPT? For if you just look up chat GPT, yeah, there's no,

like you can't tell when the image came out. When, it's like very surprising. And you're specifically referring to like the studio Ghibli moment that's super viral. Yeah, yeah. Got it. Interesting. Yeah. So I like it makes me think that like maybe the Gemini stuff is not actually that related to Yeah, what do you think is driving the, like the massive growth on this particular chart, on the Google trends? It's probably just that like Google is pushing it really hard. I don't think there's really rate limits. The models are like pretty cheap. Yeah, it might be it might be free tier in India pushing hard.

Somebody account hello in the chat says there's an Instagram trend in India with Gemini and girls wearing saris. That could be enough to send it. Maybe, maybe. But yeah, there's so many ways that Google can drive adoption of the product. It always felt like they were holding back on like really opening the flood game. Totally. Yeah, yeah. And we saw some posts from folks who work on the Gemini app saying like the GPUs are on fire,

the TPUs are on fire this weekend. They're trying to keep it up. I've always thought the gap in functionality was pretty narrow between Chachup-G-T and Gemini. Like both have fast and free options. Both have reasoning models. Both have deep research modes. Both have image generation. I'm like chat GPT is still sticky for a lot of people because it's just, it's just default.

Like chat GPT is on my home row on my phone, but Gemini is just one one app above on the homepage. So I'm kind of going back and forth. But the, but I think, I think the wake. up call of like the empire strikes back is really just like what does it actually mean to be an empire and we saw a little bit of information come out from Demis the founder and now the CEO of Deepmind he was talking to David Friedberg at the all-in summit and he said something like they have 5,000 PhDs on staff which is just an insane amount of PhDs they're like the docky sign of hiring PhDs I need to put them all in a football stadium just to talk about the plans.

So OpenAI has around 7,000 employees. Yeah. And DeepMind has like, it's a similar organization. 5,000 PhDs. Yeah. And I think the reason why you see folks like Bucco Capital guy being so bullish on Google is that they're already vertically integrated. They're already a hyperscaler.

So they have their own data centers. You just had to look at all the different parts of their business, the data advantage, the distribution advantage. You know, you can go on and on and on and on. Ben Thompson had a great post about AI in the big five. So the five big tech companies that are taking AI really seriously. For Google, they have the best infrastructure. They have a good model. They have no partners.

They have the best data. They have distribution on Android devices, search, Google Cloud Platform, the core business. the core business. Chat, chat bots are disruptive to search. This could be bad, but it also could be like, well, it's the whole organization needs to be awake because it's obviously a threat. You can't just sit back and be, yeah, that'll probably benefit us. Like, you have to move. And scarcity risk, data feedback loops diminished, disruptive or sustaining. It could be disruptive, new business potential in the cloud, says Ben Thompson. So I do think that the Google Bulls might have over rotated a little bit against Open AI. I saw one quote that accused Chachapit of, quote, losing at least $2 for every $1 it spends, which I just don't think makes sense from like an accounting perspective. You can lose $2 for every $1 you make. if you spend a dollar as a startup and you lose two, like what, what, what, what, what, how does that work?

Like, can you imagine, just think about like, the actual financials of a business and think about like, okay, our expenses were one million dollars and, and our balance sheet went down by two million dollars. Like, what, what would have to happen? Like, I don't even understand how that's possible. Can you think of a way that? Does that just mean you're spending three dollars? No, no, no, no, no, not, not revenue. They're saying, so losing, losing, $2 for every $1 they spend. So expenses are $1 million. Losses are $2 million. How does that happen? Capax maybe? I don't know. You're saying how can your cost be bigger than your revenue? No, no, no, no. It's not revenue. How can your costs be bigger than your expenses?

Oh, oh, oh. Like this quote says losing $2 for every $1 they spend, they spend, not make. I understand lose $2 for every $1 you make. That makes sense. You have $3 in expenses. Very easy arithmetic. Do you think they just... I think it might have just been a typo? Yeah.

I don't know. It might have been a typo or maybe it's somebody that doesn't understand accounting. But it's just like mathematically is very, very confusing to me. And so I think people are sort of like running with this a little bit too much. Also, Brian Merchant wrote that OpenAI fails to have a discernible business model. And I think that's just crazy. Like the business model is extremely discernible. It's freemium.

Like there's a free tier and then there's a paid tier. Like you might not think that the business model is super profitable or it's going to work or they're going to win. But like their business model is not some crazy. Oh, I don't understand how they make money. It's like it's freemium. There's a free version. And there's a paid version. And they make money off the paid version.

Yeah. And they're investing a bunch and they're losing money. And, you know, this happens a lot in companies. They lose money and then they make money later. And discovers that a business. Yeah. And so I think people are like, Or like maybe getting over their ski.

At least some people are getting over their skis. And like, oh, like, no one even knows how open AI makes money or what their business model is. Maybe it's something about like paying to like train the model and they're paying all this money. They're spending money to train the model. And then they're still losing money on the model. Yeah, this was the Dario thing where he was like,

we, you know, we spend a billion dollars to train it. And then that billion dollar training run makes two billion over the next few years. And so you add all those up. Those are all good. But then you wind up with this like endless pit of money in the short, like in the overall business. But if each business individually was very good and made a lot of sense.

And then also just on the business model side, it's like, it's like they hired Fiji Simo. They're doing ads. Like semi-analysis broke it all down. They're going to take a cut of every of all the commerce that happens in open AI. Chat Chapti queries. That account that that supplement brand that we were talking about Friday, that's just like printing cash because they're ranked highest in in chat GPT. Yeah.

It won't that will not continue forever. And so like it seems like my takeaway is like Google's executing well. They're seeing a lot of growth than Gemini. They're doing very well there. But it's not like opening I doesn't make any sense. It's just like, oh, no one knows how it works. Like it's not this mysterious thing. Like opening eye is still bigger on Google trends than Gemini in the U.S.

They're still making money from pro plans and plus plans. and then they're also going to start taking a cut of commerce that happens on top of Chachypiti queries. So I don't know. Overall, I mean, it seems that Google is in a great position to stay in the game for the next technological wave. At the very least, they'll be able to play in AI duopolis or oligopolis like they do with Android and iOS. They don't capture a ton of the profits there, but they capture a ton of the business value. And also with Google Cloud Platform, it's an oligopoly between Azure. My read on Gemini doing well is not that it's bearish for Open AI at all.

No. It means that it's an extremely important market. Yep. And there's going to be a number of players that go after it. Yep. Do I think that there's going to be 10 different consumer AI, you know, multi-purpose consumer AI applications? Yep.

That are amazing businesses. No. There's going to be a handful. Yep. Totally. There was another chart that was going absolutely, vertical and it's the adoption of Chinese LLMs. Did you see this? So we do we got to give them some credit work we got to give them some credit light so open open source

models from China are set to overtake the US as downloads surge in use across Hugging Face the American ecosystem has stalled in growth and the flip is happening right now and so you can see that hugging face downloads for USA based open source LLM models I mean completely vertically, very exponential growth there, but then China caught up and the flip is happening right now. And it's interesting, I mean, there's one take that's like open source AI will kind of cease to matter in the future

and it's not gonna be that big of a deal, doesn't really matter. And what's the argument there? Because I could see, I could see while, you know, 10, 20 years ago companies making the same case around open source software broadly. In the long run, open source is not going to matter. And yet it's still super foundational to. It is. I think the argument goes something like just the value capture around it. So yes, if you, yes, Linux is like dominant and Linux has a massive install base,

but companies that have built their business around Linux like Red Hat, Red Hat is like a unicorn, maybe like worth 10 billion at various points in time. It's been like taken private and taken public and whatnot. But Red Hat is like one hundredth the size of Android or Microsoft or Mac or iOS, right? Like the other, even, I mean, Mac built on Unix, so there's like a lot of lineage there. But a lot of the closed source operating systems have captured like 99% of the value. So I think the hot take on open source not being that valuable is just that there's not that much value capture that happens, even if there is pretty wide adoption. I don't know if there's more to it than that.

Then there's just like the, who had that take that was like the open source, I think it was Tyler Cowan. He said like the open source models, like, well, if they're distilled from American models, even if they're like Chinese, they still like believe all the American things. and they wind up, like, they wind up believing in free speech and believing in American values just because, like, they've been, like, trained on GPT5, exactly, yeah. Yeah.

And trade on the American internet. But my question is, like, how seriously is Google taking open source right now? They have the open weights, Gemma line of open source models. Do you have an idea here, Tyler? I mean, yeah, Google just has Gemma. Those are mostly, like, pretty small models.

They're used a lot in, like, like, mechanistic, interpretability stuff. So just like kind of like toy models. Sure. But and then there's like open AI they have their own. Yeah. I mean meta is really the only like big player and open source in the US. Yeah. My my take on this is that it feels like there is a there is a crown in Washington DC that is waiting to land on some big tech executives head for just dominating the American open source AI narrative. And obviously, that was Open AIs branding for a long time. Then they went closed source. They have an open source model now, but they're not known as like the leading open source lab, right? The leading open source lab is arguably Deepseek or Alibaba with Quinn.

But you could imagine that you could do a whole victory tour, whole victory lap in DC over saying, like, hey, I'm the American open source champion. And so I wonder if Google, Google will go for that, or if Mark Zuckerberg at Meta, we'll go for that with the next release of Lama and say, hey, I'm still taking this seriously. There's been a lot of rumblings about like, oh, is meta backing off of open source? I think John Ludig wrote in this.

It already leaked. They had a conversation. There were conversations internally, allegedly around, hey, is this actually important, or do we just want to deliver value for our own customer? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, can they keep, can they keep justifying the CAP-X and then open sourcing the results and then handing those,

handing out the freebies. Anyway. Did we want to read through some of these, this post from Zyfer? This format has been going like gigaviral. Have you noticed that? Every third post is this. It's like the four-channel.

Be Google in 2017. Small team drops quote unquote, attention is all you need. Execs nod politely, go back to selling ads for socks. Let Transformer gathered us for five years, like vintage Beanie Baby. B, Nome, Shazir, OG, wizard, quits, builds AI boyfriend app, character, AI. Millions of lonely hearts pay $999 to E-D8 to E-D-2B from near. Google HR.

Any chance you want to come back? Shazir, busy. My EGF is calling. I don't think this is what happened. I don't think this is what happened at all, but it's funny, funny revisionist history. 2020, opening eye drops chat chit-b-tie-b-tweil-loses mind. Google stock does a bungee jump. Sundar holds all hands guys.

we need a response by Q2. Team ships barred in three weeks, using 12 interns, 2,000 TPUV4s in pure panic. Bard hallucinates the earth is flat. Did that actually happen? I mean, I don't remember that. I remember there were some, I didn't use Bard.

I kind of missed the name Bard. Bard was kind of a great name. But there were so many. There was Palm and Google was like sort of promoting like their internal research and their external stuff. so they had like product names and then also model names and the model naming convention it's it's like way overstated to say that opening eyes the only one with confusing model name architectures because google had the exact same thing going on with like with palm and bard and all these different even now they have it's like jemini 2.0 flash light yeah yeah and then is like is flash better than light yeah or like pro 5 is worse than it's it's a right of passage to have naming uh you have to go through it before you actually just release the one good product,

which would probably just be Google.com. Like no, like, I remember a decade ago, people used to analyze like the updates to the Google.com algorithm. There was one release that was called, like, Penguin or something. I forget what it was called, but it changed the way search results ranked, and it was like disastrous for a bunch of companies that had built SEO around the previous architecture.

And then when Google shows, this change it like decimated a whole bunch of businesses but it goes back and forth but anyway BARD was a good name maybe they'll bring it back at some point but I think Gemini's cooking I think Gemini is gonna be around for a long time and I and I do think those I do think they'll go model router and I think though the we will not be seeing point fives very long realistically all these products probably go to an annual release cycle and it should just be yeah I'm using Gemini 2025 2026 27 like a

car. Anyway, you want to continue with this? Chazir finally answers HR's 47th email. It's funny, again, of course. This is not how it works. Not how it works. BARD. Anyways, fine, but I want my own parking spot and unlimited LeCroy. Return waves hand, Gemini 2 and two and two and a half drop. Context window is so big. It can summarize a Bible in your group chat. Google processing 980 trillion tokens a month equal to 40% of human SMS traffic. That's crazy if it's real. That is wild. someone sneezes nano-banana into the play store overnight, it's number one. App turns your selfie. We're not going to read that last part.

I'm not going to read that last part, folks. Go find it yourself. But this, I asked, how would Gemini the app do in September astrologically to Gemini? From an astrological perspective, September is a complex and transformative month for Gemini. While it may not have seen the same effortless flow as in Gemini season, It presents a significant period of growth learning and necessary recalibration. Yeah. It's just like the most classic, like astrological like generalization.

So like Gemini is generating this and then reading it and being like, wow, that's actually. It's very funny. Anyway, let me tell you about Figma.com. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. Great to see John Exley back in the chat. We were wondering where you're working on. World famous now. World famous now. He's been featured in Business Insider. Thank you so much to John Exley.

Yes, TBPN was in Business Insider this morning. Yes. John got the quote. I think everyone in this chat is a business insider. A lot of the folks were featured in there, but Julia Hornstein broke down. She, I think, explained and described aura farming and a number of other. I think that that was, overall, great piece. I think she kind of missed the definition of aura farming. We'll get Tyler to put it in the truth zone. That was the one thing where I read, I was like, I don't know if that fully fits Tyler's definition of aura farming, but it was funny to see it printed in the business insider. John's best quote was John Axley, that is. I look at TBPN as an existence of the proof of heaven.

Thank you. As existence proof of heaven. Thank you, John Ashley. We appreciate you. We appreciate it. Anyway, Ajini Midhusband on an absolute tear. He posted that AI is eating software across the handful of frontier AI startups that he's a board member in. Year to date, sales have gone from 1.3 billion to 8 billion.

Meanwhile, publics are bleeding the single most rapid reallocation of value from legacy companies to startups. to startups in history. And that's why we're to partner with so many of the startups that are taking it to the public. I wonder, I can't see what any of these companies are. So it's hard to give that great of analysis here. One of them is Adobe. Adobe is off 33% this year. It's a $150 billion company.

Yeah, I just wonder how much of these are selling off because of the overall narrative that the Gen AI, the labs are being. basically going to be able to just generate these companies from scratch. It's that, but it's also that there really is significant pricing pressure. This is what we were talking to Jim Kramer about with regard to Salesforce. Salesforce is a seat-based model, and they need to shift to an outcomes-based, value-based pricing. And that is something that is hard to do in the short term. Well, here's a question of, are you really-

Here's something. So this morning, Trump jumped on True Social. He said, subject to SEC approval, companies and corporation should no longer be forced to report, to report, he put it in quotes, on a quarterly basis. He's a quote enthusiast, quarterly reporting, but rather to report on a six-month basis. This will save money and allow managers to focus on properly running their companies. Did you ever hear the statement that, quote, China has 50 to 100-year view on management of a company, whereas we run our companies on a quarterly basis? Not good. They still have quarterly reporting requirements, don't they? I don't know. It's just more of like a I imagine if companies only had to report report every 50 to 100 years though

Can be pretty good imagine waiting. He's like you have your first Google your first Pallentier earnings as a young man You know average high on and then I'm riding with Pallantier. We'll see We'll see what you know right? It's like it's like you get the that that one earnings report decides whether you retire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At our last earnings, like, Google made... At our last earnings before the internet. Google generated $100 billion in net income last year.

Imagine going from like the IPO prospectus. Yeah, yeah, we generated $20 million in net income to being like, yep, we're ready to update you. It's been 20 years. $100 billion in net income. We've done very well. It's a beat. Green candle.

Anyway, regardless of what happens with the SEC, you got to stay compliant. You got to get on Vanta. Vanta.com. Automate compliance, managed risk, improved trust continuously. Ventus trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process

and replaces it with continuous automation, whether you're pursuing your first framework. It's so funny to think like, you know, DJT has his public company. He does. Truth Social. He's just like, ah, I'm getting really sick of this. What if I could cut the management teams, you know,

What if I could cut the management teams, you know, sort of, I do, you know, one, you know, I can see there, there, there being some, if this actually gets rolled out, there could be some bad side effects. Maybe companies get sloppier, right? Like the quarterly cycles, like a forcing function for, you know, just making, you know, continuous progress and running a tight ship and all these things. But if the burden of being public goes down, maybe more companies go public earlier, right? Yeah, maybe. Maybe. And maybe, yeah, CEOs that would just have. But again, I just, I'm not sure that it would be. Since we cover earnings, we should be strongly against this because half as much content would be devastating to us.

I mean, I mean, I don't know. There's plenty of it. cover earnings that closely. But it does make for a fun news cycle, getting new data points and new earnings calls. But maybe the podcast world can fill in for that, you know, do a quarterly podcast tour and chat about your business. Less quiet periods for sure, right? So be good on that.

Anyway, in other news, the Wall Street journalist is reporting that China has said that NVIDIA violated antitrust law. Regulators move against the chip company comes during Washington, Beijing trade talks. We're going to have Bill Bishop join the stream in seven minutes. China said an initial probe found NVIDIA violated the country's anti-monopoly law, heightening pressure on Washington during the latest round of U.S. China trade talks that ended Monday. Beijing's antitrust regulator cited the violations in connection with NVIDIA's acquisition of an Israeli company that was completed in 20, 2020, the regulator said the investigation was continuing and didn't elaborate. Beijing approved the deal after Nvidia agreed to conditions, including guaranteeing the supply of

its chips to China in, but since 2020, the U.S. government has blocked Nvidia and other American chip vendors from selling many of their top flight artificial intelligence chips to China. Nvidia said it complied with law. We will continue to cooperate with all relevant government agencies as they evaluate the impact of export controls. Beijing's move came just hours. before Treasury Secretary Scott Besant told reporters in Madrid that US and Chinese negotiators had reached a framework deal

on TikTok following two days of trade talks. If you're not familiar or you haven't been following it that closely, the TikTok divestiture has been pushed a number of times. We're just reaching the end of the most recent 90-day hold. Yes, I believe it's Wednesday. We have two days left. And so US and Chinese negotiators have been figuring out

framework for that. I believe Polymarket has Oracle and Larry Ellison still in the lead. I don't know if you want to pull up the latest data there on what will happen to TikTok. But it is funny that we're hearing so much more about Larry Ellison with the OpenAI deal, which we're going to go into tomorrow. It's still sitting at a 43% chance that a TikTok sale is announced in 2025. Okay. Yeah, might happen. Of course, there's way more. it, what does the sale actually mean, what will. So oh, the chart is spiking with a sale.

So yeah, unclear what exactly, what piece of the business would they sell? There's always been this nervousness around what if they sell the cloud infrastructure contract and the inference and they say, yeah, you guys can run the app. We decide the algorithm. And of course, a lot of people who are nervous about the effect that TikTok is having on the American populace think that it's actually the training of the model. that matters a lot more. It's like if our, you know, if we were in a,

in a, you know, Cold War with the country and they owned one of our most popular newspapers, he said, hey, we don't really want you doing this. And they were like, oh, it's fine. You can deliver the news. Yeah, you can take over the printing of it. Yeah, you can print it. We're still going to decide the words that go in.

But you can print it. Yeah, we're going to decide what's on the front page. We'll let you. Yeah, let you. Yeah. Anyone can post to this newspaper, but we're going to decide the sorting of the articles. Like, what makes it to the front page is important.

And so control over the algorithm should be relevant. And I've talked to some AI researchers who have said that it might be possible to run like a secondary algorithm on top of what algorithm gets shipped over, essentially fine-tuning it as it comes over. So you know, the TikTok algorithm comes over and it's prioritizing one thing, and then you run a secondary feed on top.

And this happens a lot with like different, you know, you might have a secondary algorithm that's running for, does this violate the terms of service of the app? Is this adult content or something? It might still rank very high, but if it triggers the filter, it gets deprioritized after the fact. So there are different ways to go about it. And certainly not having the data immediately exfiltrated.

Seems like a net win. But it is a complex topic. So we'll continue to follow the story as it develops. The two sides, the U.S. and China, are running up against a Wednesday deadline to do a deal to allow the popular video sharing app to continue operating in the United States. And it's crazy how big of a story this was what last year, maybe the year before, everyone was beating the drum on band TikTok. And it's kind of just melted in the background. People don't really think about it anymore. It's just kind of like become, it's fallen out of the

news cycle. Anyway, Nvidia has become perhaps the highest profile business, a business caught in the crossfire of the trade dispute between the world's two biggest economies. the company sells the most powerful chips. In December, China's antitrust regulator, the state administration for market regulation opened a probe into Nvidia's $7 billion acquisition of the Israeli networking gear maker Melanox technologies, which I believe was a fantastic acquisition.

I think they made a ton of money off that based on what they wound up selling because they bought this company before the AI boom and then networking gear became incredibly important as they built out these massive data centers with Nvidia GPUs. And so a week earlier, the Biden administration ratcheted up controls on China to China's access to high-end chips. Antitrust lawyers familiar with the case said Nvidia was in a tough spot because it had to halt supply of its most advanced chips to China to comply with the US export

controls. But that opened it up to criticism from Beijing. We will talk to Bill Bishop, who is in the Restream waiting room about everything that's going on in China with regard to Nvidia and elsewhere. So let's bring in Bill Bishop from the stream waiting in the middle of checking. How are you? Good. How are you? I'm fantastic. How are you? Have a good weekend.

I have to say thank you. Of course. And I have to say, Tashi's Laboo Boo Boo. Yes. And I will say that TPPN, you top tick the Laboo Bubble. Since you said you were sending this, I think Pop Mart stock is down like 20%. So good job. Let's go.

Boses are crashing in secondary markets, so it's awesome. We did say we were buying it so your dog could rip it apart. I actually examined it and decided there might be some toxic pieces, so I'm keeping it on. Oh, that's smart. He did try. Yeah, yeah, that is so smart. That's great.

Anyway, we were just reading through this, the latest news on the China saying that Nvidia violated antitrust law. I was wondering if you had any thoughts. And then we can kind of go into just generally, give us the update on what you've been talking about on your fantastic blog, synicism, and then also Sharp China, which is your podcast, which everyone should go subscribe to. It's in the Sertechari bundle. It's fantastic. But did you see this news? What was your take on the on the Nvidia antitrust debate going on in China?

So it's interesting timing. It relates to this Melanox acquisition from a few years ago and that Nvidia had agreed to certain terms. I think most were public. I think at least one term was not disclosed. And now the SAMR, which is the anti-monopoly group, is saying that they violated at least one of the provisions. And the timing, of course, is not coincidental, right? It dropped just as the US and China negotiators were meeting in Madrid.

It comes two days or three days after the announcement of investigation. in the dumping of analog chips, as well as discrimination in the sort of blocking of sales of certain other chips. And so I think this is, one, I think Navidia technically could be in a lot of trouble because if they are found to be violating their agreement, I believe they can be penalized up to 10% of their global revenue. In addition, and then have that be multiplied two to five times. So they could be looking at several billions of dollars, several billions of dollars, several

billion of fines from the Chinese government if it proceeds to its conclusion and they're found to be in violation of these of the agreement. You know, my guess is that this, the timing is again not coincidental and it is it is part of a way to further encourage NVIDIA and the US government to pull back on export controls. Yeah. And you know, clearly NVIDIA is already motivated to do that. This may motivate them more.

And whether or not then the Chinese government uses this as part of this broader discussion around export controls, that's not clear. Now, in the previous segment you were talking about TikTok, what was interesting in these discussions was from the statement so far from the U.S. side, they said that the Chinese tried to bring in export controls or things, but the U.S. side was solely focused on TikTok. And so, you know, but then they're going to keep talking and they're going to extend the deadline for the imposition of additional tariffs. and they're just going to keep negotiating. So I think that this is all part of the position on the Chinese side to push back on the U.S. government. The announcement last Friday of this investigation to dumping of analog chips is probably the Chinese getting ahead of what's to be expected

of this 232 investigation from the U.S. trade representative's office around legacy chips from China. And so there's just a lot of moving pieces. I don't think Nvidia is in any trouble immediately because of this investigation, but it just makes their prospects in China a little murkier. And again, I think one of the sort of waypoints for investors to look at is assuming President Trump approves this modified Blackwell chip, though, I think it's the B-30 that Nvidia is trying to create the cell of the China. It's much better than the H20. It's not as good as Blackwell,

but it's much better than anything that the Chinese can make anytime soon. If the Trump administration says, yes, Nvidia will grant you licenses, does the Chinese side actually start buying? Or do they do what they did with the H20 and basically say, we're not going to buy, and we still don't know why they don't want to buy the H20s, but it certainly doesn't look good.

That wasn't a good outcome for Nvidia. Yeah, it feels like there's definitely like multi-party interests here with the CCP maybe not wanting a bunch of chips to come in from Nvidia because they want to spur their domestic homegrown chip manufacturing business. But then the companies, Alibaba and Deep Seek, these companies just want the best chips to actually compete. And so there's like a tension there.

Is that kind of the correct narrative? No, that certainly is how I look at it. And I think that ultimately, and that's why I said, if Trump administration approves the B30 and China still says no, then I think the answer will be that the party, the sort of security forces, the party forces have decided that they are going to just rip off the band-aid and try and move faster towards indigenization of the chips. If it turns out that actually they start buying B-30s in bulk, then maybe the H-20 rejection was effectively

employed. It said, no, no, we want the better stuff, right? And so they set up this sort of made it look like there's some confusion or, you know, but ultimately it's a benefit to Nvidia. We just don't know at this point. One of the big questions too is, you know, certainly a company that would want Nvidia to, in Chinese companies, to not buy Nvidia would be Huawei, right? Because Huawei has the Ascend series.

They're the ones who are claimed they have potentially the best potential ultimate competitor to Vividia chips is whether or not Huawei has actually been over-promising what they've been able to make, both in terms of actual capabilities and also in terms of production volumes. Scale. Do you think- So there are some whispers that the Huawei was sort of, blowing smoke up towards the top of the system that they're further ahead than they are. Do you think there are certain members of the CCP and the party broadly that are

extremely AGI-pilled and then others that are just thinking like, you know, this is an extending technology for the internet and it's going to, we're going to develop, you know, valuable services and software with it, but we're not building machine God. So it's okay if we get sort of set back, if we set ourselves back, you know, five or so years because it's not, you know, necessarily critical to national security. That's a great and key question. And I think you look at, I think it was last week or the week before, the Chinese issued this AI Plus action plan, which really is more about how to bring AI into a whole

bunch of different sectors. A big focus on directional applications, not at all AGIPIL. It's really basically how to, um, Increase business efficiency. Yeah. Business efficiency, increase governing efficiency. Make it better for the police, right? Get AI models for the police to do better predicted policing and better social governance.

Impleative education, improve the health care system. Not at all. They don't need the Ferrari of AI models. They don't need the Ferrari of chips. They need good enough. And the question then is, at least on the open source models in China, like Quinn, like the Deep Seek, are they good enough for what the Chinese need? And are the chips that they're now starting to make?

in more capacity and more volume, are they going to be good enough for what they need? And that ultimately, I think, is, you know, if the answer is yes, then Nvidia is probably screwed in China. If the answer is no, then they still have a bit of runway. Give us the update on TikTok. It feels like everyone was, there was like an odd coalition on the left and the right, like last year, everyone was like banned TikTok. It felt like it was a fever pitch. It was a rallying cry for tech execs. And it's like everyone had a good good reason to want to ban it. Like the, you know, a lot of the tech leaders compete with TikTok, whether YouTube

Reels or, you know, or, uh, X or, or shorts on Instagram. And then there were the security and the China Hawks. There were so many people that were saying like, yes. And then the narrative kind of turned to like, well, Trump kind of liked TikTok and it helped him get elected and he felt like there was a groundswell of support on TikTok and so maybe he wasn't worried about it. But now we've like kicked it out a couple. Yeah.

And then the, the new kind of potential. emerged of the cloud contracts, which hands. And that felt like the example, I don't know if you heard, but the example we gave is like, if you had a national, you know, rival, geopolitical rival, and they owned a popular newspaper in your country, and you didn't like that. And they said, well, it's okay. We'll let you print the newspaper and we'll let you do, like, physically distribute it. You'd be like, well, it's not really enough because I want to control, I don't want you

controlling what's in the headline and what's on the front page. and how the con you know yeah and it feels like if we end up with a scenario where like oracle gets a big even bigger cloud contract from from bite dance and that's the end of it that doesn't feel like it's resolved kind of the key issues that the the real hawks were worried about well so a few months ago i had a conversation with one of the drafters of the law that um effectively banned ticot if they didn't meet certain conditions and this person just said you know the only thing we didn't contemplate was a president who didn't enforce the law and so what's been happening is is the extensions that President Trump has been giving,

none of them are legal, right? That they are completely blatantly in violation of the law, doesn't matter, right? And so now though the question is, in this particular, you know, today we got the news that they apparently have some framework deal, Trump and Xi Jinping are gonna talk about it on Friday,

is whether or not the framework deal involves both the bite-dance share going below 20% of Nuco or whatever they're gonna call it, and that the Chinese side, the Bait-Dentz, has no input, no connection to the algorithm. And so, because the law is very clear. And actually a few months ago, some of the investors in this mooted sort of consortium that was going to create this new code of buyout TikTok US, they were trying, they were lobbying on Capitol Hill to get a sentence inserted in any bill that would take it, that effectively indemnify them against breaking the law.

Because they understood, you know, they're potentially putting billions of dollars at risk. they are smart enough that they don't want to actually do that in a deal that technically is in violation of a law on the books that survived a Supreme Court challenge, right, 9 to 0. And so, you know, this is, I think, if what we've, and we don't have really any details yet of what the Chinese and the U.S. sides agree to today in Madrid. But if it turns out that the Chinese side, the Bight dance is going to go below 20%, and, for example, the U.S., the new code is going to have to rewrite the algorithm. then it probably, and there's no data connection, there's no technical connection to China. It's logically, physically separated from anything that touches China.

Then that deal probably works. But then what is TikTok to who's going to write the new algorithm? I mean, last I heard machine language engineers are expensive and hard to find these days. Well, yeah, and we have some of the smartest engineers in the world that YouTube and Instagram, like trying to make the algorithm as good as people report TikTok.

is. Right. I wonder how much of an olive branch can be given on the cap table because there's a lot of American investors who invested in Bightance or TikTok have huge stakes. Jeff Yass at Sesquahna is a good example, 15% ownership. Bill Ford at General Atlantic. Yeah, General Atlantic. And so there's a very neutral outcome here where you say, oh, well, like, you have this massive

stake. We don't want you to take this huge write down. You can just have an even bigger stake in the U.S. entity. and so that's probably even more valuable, and you get your money out of China, so you have more liquidity, you can IPO the company. There's a lot of things that you can do there, and it's not value-destructive.

One of the things it probably does is it probably unlocks, if this deal gets done, it probably helps, if Bight-Dan wants to, helps them sort of clear the path to an IPO in Hong Kong. Sure. Which, and again, the U.S. of all the investors, Bight-Tan, I think, in the last private round, was valued to like $500 billion, right?

So there's a lot of money at stake here. You mentioned Oracle, you know, to assuage U.S. regulators' concerns, Oracle and BITANS. had gotten together. They've done this thing called Project Texas, where they were going to segment out all the U.S. user data. They proposed that they would actually review the code, the algorithm code, even though the algorithm would be updated from China. They would have engineers who could go through the code and make sure it wasn't being manipulated. That didn't satisfy the national security concerns. That's one of the reasons why the law was passed last April. April 24. There had been talk over this year of a Project Texas 2.0 to kind of cut a deal,

but ultimately I think there were enough people in the GOP on the hill who made it clear the Trump administration that actually that wasn't going to fly because it still was in violation of the law that passed last April. And so really I think again, we'll see what has come out of this. What's interesting too is how the U.S. side made this TikTok the focus of the negotiations this time. not soybeans. There's an article in the Washington, New York Times today, about how soybean farmers are about to go bankrupt because China's not buying soybeans.

That wasn't the focus. The focus was TikTok. And because, you know, think about it, there's only upside for the president, right? And the investors, because now if TikTok is saved, TikTok is beholden to the president, it's another algorithm that probably, you know, has favorable feelings towards President Trump.

He's helped a bunch of big investors, including Oracle. It's an interesting moment when, like you said, year and a half ago people were going nuts on across the aisle about how dangerous TikTok was and now it's like okay whatever as long as it abides by the law whatever give me the broader update on what's happening in Beijing and Sijing ping's like grip on power there's been some rumors that maybe he's losing control there's always rumors like how are things just overall looking there he was recently caught on a hot mic saying he's going to live to 150 which I think is a very.

Watching a little too much Brian Johnson. So I'm wondering like what the next. Honestly, I think those, I mean, those rumors, from what we can see, there's nothing to them. Yeah. And what we saw at the, you know, the big parade on September 3rd, some other personnel stuff. There's just people every, every year there are these rumor cycles. They came a little earlier this year. But every year they turn out to be BS and so far they're looking like BS.

Oh, well. Trump said this morning that he thinks that he thinks companies in the U.S. shouldn't have to report quarterly. He referenced Chinese companies thinking on a 50 to 100 year time horizon, yet Chinese public companies do have to report quarterly. Do you know if the, do you know, are, I mean, is it, is it common for public company management teams in China to say like, you know, we just missed on everything this quarter? Let's look at this at 100 years. Let's see him out a little bit. That's that's one of those true social posts that just who knows where it came from. Yeah.

I was saying it's probably Trump, Trump has a public company. He's like, realizes how laborious quarterly reporting is for his team. And he wants to free them up to work on product. And now the lobbyist for like the accounting firms and the lawyer, the law firms are going to be cycling up in D.C. Like, wait a minute. We make more money on a quarterly basis. importantly quarterly reporting is their business yeah there's definitely some people there index to that when we were joking about that we cover earnings we want as many

earnings reports as possible we like that let's do daily daily earnings so CEOs can say you know take that day's revenue and say we're at it multiply it by 365 and that's just have a public view of like your zero or ramp or whatever your accounting system is yeah yep there you go what's the latest any updates on the export tip donation tax whatever whatever it was yeah with NVIDIA's 15% for the big man yeah no so I think but again I think what you know a broader perspective there last week a nominee for an important position at the Department Commerce is BIS which overseas export controls his his nomination was

He was someone who's quite hawkish on chip, like high technology exports to China. There, right now, the Nvidia, the chip firms are, I think, feeling like they're in a pretty good position here in DC and there's, I think, going to be a lot more pressure to try and in roll back a bunch of these export controls. I think that the actions from the Chinese side may be potentially Nvidia today, that announcement, But then the announcement last Friday also may give ammunition here to the folks who are proponents of rolling back those chip export controls to further push the White House to say, this is not working. We need to take a different approach. And so that ultimately would be good for a lot of these chip companies.

Again, back to the Nvidia conversation, the question is, will the Chinese still buy the better Nvidia chips? And I mean, I think they'd be crazy not to, but again, this is not necessarily an economic or technical decision solely. Totally. What are you, when will we have clarity or will we have clarity on the conversations in Madrid? So I think the call Friday should, you know, the supposedly she and Trump were talking Friday. After that, potentially we'll get more information. So far there have been, you know, both negotiating teams gave statements and there's been a little bit of leaking of the press, but there's nothing like specifically around TikTok.

They're just very, very few, if any, details other than there's. some sort of a framework agreement. And you guys, I mean, you guys have been in the tech world for a long time. And what does a framework agreement really mean? And how is it legally binding and sort of where? Yeah, it sort of feels like you say framework when you stop and figure out all the details. Yeah. Makes sense.

Well, we'll be watching. We have concepts of a plan. I don't, yeah, I don't like these private phone calls between Siegeen and Donald Trump. I would prefer a podcast. I want them to sit down together with. A subsect live. Live subsect.

Yeah, yeah. Open invitation to see you. Ping and Donald Trump, if you want to come hash it out live on TBPN, we're happy to host you. You can discuss the plan, the concepts of a plan, the framework for the plan. We'd be happy to have you. And it has been great having you, Bill. Thanks so much for popping on. Have a great rest of your day, Bill.

Cheers. You too. Thanks. See you. Bye. Really quickly, let me tell you about Graphite. Code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster.

And Tim Cook was on the red carpet. flogging iPhones like a guy selling knockoff pocket watches from under his jacket let's play this video phone 17 tell me all about it oh my god i'm so excited i'm so excited that you brought it up this is the 17 uh pro max and in this beautiful cosmic orange it's a totally new design it was re-engineered from the inside out it's the most pro phone we've ever designed and so the 16's pretty good that 16 is good but But the 17 is a must. I love it.

That's why you got to give him a raise. That's give him a raise. Give him a raise. Give him a raise. He's not taking days off. He's not taking days off. He's not being, he's not underselling. The market loves it.

The market loves it. I love it. He's a, what is this? The Emmys, the Emmys, which I believe is for, what is the Emmys? It's for TV, movies. I think it's an award show. I don't know.

That's a good question. Oh, yeah, it's TV because we're going for a daytime Emmy. We want, we want, we, uh, for your consideration. That is, uh, Dylan Abrasado's number one KPI. Get us a daytime. I love to see Tim out there selling. I love it. Every single person.

I love it. I love it. I love it. It's at a company. It should be selling. Yes. It's in it. And it starts at the top.

Yeah. And you don't, you know, soft play it. You're not like, oh, yeah, you know, it's, it's another year. No. It's the best iPhone ever. It's the thinest, lightest, best biggest, fastest, awesomeest iPhone in history. It's a must.

So it's a you love, you gotta have it. It's pretty good. The last one pretty good. But this one is a must. It's good. But I mean, he is right. It is re-engineered. There's that whole, you've heard about the vapor chamber thing,

a single drop of water inside the iPhone. Do you hear this? Oh, it's amazing. So inside the iPhone, there's a single drop of water in a chamber and it heats up, evaporates, and moves to a different part away from, away from the hot internals to cool the phone. And this has been one of the complaints

for the last few years. I haven't had any problems with heat on this phone on the 16, but- That's cool. But yeah. My phone- overheats? Overheets?

Overheets all the time. Do you find that it overheats when you're like using software on the phone? Camera. Oh, filming or video? Photos. Just taking photos. And you notice it overheating.

Wow, that's wild. It doesn't turn off. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. It just heats up a little bit and it feels hot. Well, that should be a thing of the past with your new iPhone 17 Pro Max in orange. I'm excited to... Do you think that the orange color is a nod to YC or Stratereckery?

What were they going on? Or Bitcoin. Which one do you think they were going for? Probably nod to Ben Thompson over it. Probably Ben Thompson. Yeah. So a hat tip. Yeah.

Ben Thompson's been covering the stock for, what, almost two decades. He's done a lot of great reports. on Apple and why not give them a little nod with the Sturtecary orange iPhone? I like it. Or the McLaren Orange. What else is orange? I don't know. There's a lot.

Andrew Cote says, I propose a technology brother pilgrimage to Starbase to look at rockets, feel better about the world, and maybe throw a giant warehouse party or something. Maybe go over to you. He runs a hard tech conference in San Francisco. I didn't have a chance to go last year, but they, wait, was it in, say it was it, it was on like a, like a, on an aircraft carrier or something.

He, he got, he really pulled out all the tech bro little touches. I believe there were cyber trucks on top of a, on top of a aircraft carrier. And there were sponsors and stuff. I would like to, I would like to have a house party in a nuclear submarine. House party. Some flip cup or some beer pong? Yeah. Yeah.

in the nuclear sub. The nuclear sub, it's pretty tight quarters. Have you ever been on a Navy ship? No. But, you know, it's not giant. But, you know, you can, it could be a really, you light it properly. It could be a really fun vibe, you know.

But going to Starbase makes a lot of sense. I'm pretty sure. I mean, imagine 24-hour, 24-hour trip, Starbase in the morning. Yeah. Abilene, Texas in the afternoon. Oh, yeah. Stargate. Or some type of house set within a Crusoe data center.

Yeah. Something there. It would be fun. Well, get on Julius. What analysis do you want to run? Chat with your data and get expert level insights in seconds. Asked Julius to analyze your data. Over 2 million users trusted by individuals.

It's got to be 3 million at this point. Yeah, we need to update that for sure. Anyway. Rahul posted yesterday on a Sunday. Bad day to be a manual workflow. I don't even know what inspired that. I guess he was just automating things. It's a Sunday.

He's grinding. He's automating workflows. That's great. What more do you need? Base is beginning to explore a network token. We're in the early phases. This is from the official base account. That's Coinbase's new product.

We're in the early phases of exploration and don't have any specifics to share around timing, design, or governance. We're committed to bridging the community, bringing the community along with us and building in the open. Brian Armstrong, CEO and founder of Coinbase says, we're exploring a base network token. It could be a great tool for Excel. accelerating decentralization, expanding creator and developer growth in the base is interesting. It's a blockchain without a native token.

Yes. And we asked Brian Armstrong about that at the base launch event. And he said, no comments right now, no news to share. But that was a question that everyone was asking us to ask, because it did seem like there might be a logical conclusion of this project, is to eventually decentralize the project. So there's no definitive plans. Stay safe out there. Don't go buy the wrong base token. Getting, get too excited, but interesting development from Brian Armstrong over at Coinbase.

So congrats to them on the progress. And congrats to Fall Generative Media Platform for developers. The world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place. Develop up and fine-tuned models with serverless GPUs and on-demand clusters. Bill Gates, someone resurfaced Bill Gates is ready. resume as a freshman at Harvard. The resume and experience is still probably better than 99% of college students in tech out there.

And so it says his objective was to become a systems analyst and systems programmer. On his resume, he puts his heightened weight, 510, 130. What a hilarious thing to put on your resume. Interesting. Is that to make your, is that to make you more interesting from, from a like a health insurance standpoint? It's like, hey, my caring cost is not going to be. be that high.

Yeah, free lunches, I'm not going to be doing double protein. I'm just a $1.30 when I'm wet and wearing boots. He says, no dependence. He wants a $12,000 salary, but he's open to whatever. And he's open to relocating. He needs at least $12,000. He's open to $120 billion. Look at this resume, his experience.

He knows Fortran. He knows Cobol. He knows basic. He knows machine languages for most of the above computers. Lest. Or he even built a payroll product. Oh yeah. Traffic flow analysis system, school scheduling payroll. He's a systems programmer and in partnership with Paul Allen, of course the co-founder, designed and put together a system for traffic engineers to study traffic flow. The system is built around Intel's MCS 8008 microcomputer. The software and hardware setup has been fully tested using a prototype. Demonstrations to customers are planned for May 1974. Wow. Information Sciences. Fun.

I wonder how that surfaced. Like, when did he publish this? Did someone else, did someone else publish this? Leak this? I don't know. It's interesting. He was like working with a recruiting services firm. Probably a good client for them. Seems like he would have had a lot of options. Indeed.

Junk bond analysts, we already covered this. The screenshot of the truth social post about subject to SEC approval. Yep. This seems with the SEC, Yeah, I mean, we're going to need to see the art, like, why. Report. It's funny to say, like, put it in quotes, because, like, it very much is definitely a report. It's a real report.

On a quarterly basis. And then also in parentheses, so it's subject to the SEC approval, companies and corporations should no longer be forced to report on a quarterly basis, parentheses, quarterly reporting, exclamation point? Like, why are you putting this in parentheses? But rather report on a six month, six, and then six in parentheses, month basis in case you couldn't read S-I-X? I really don't understand the texture of this. This is definitely not LLM generated. This is going from the desk of the president. It ends up being like the exact same amount of work, right? Like the report, it's the six-month report just like doubles, you know, doubles in terms of how intensive it is.

function is that the lawyers and the accountants get paid exactly this is a wild post did you ever hear the statement that quote china has a 50 to 100 year view on management of a company whereas we run our companies on a quarterly basis question mark question mark question mark not good exclamation mark exclamation mark and it doesn't close the quote like there's no there's no end to that quote and also since when have we been looking to china for best practices on anything i thought i thought we were like near peer adversaries. Very, very odd. Anyway, Elon Musk has perched over 2.56 million shares of Tesla worth $1 billion. The purchase happened on September 12th with an average price of $389.22. This is Elon's first open market stock purchase since February of 2020. He is squarely in the one trillion club. What do you mean? Tesla. The market cap is currently 1.28.

trillion. Wow. It's crazy that only a little while ago it feels like Meadow was at like one one like you know just just north of that. But yeah I feel like there's there's going to be news here especially around. Robotaxie? Yeah there was also news exaI terminated of like 500 employees over the weekend. Yeah. Which again I don't I don't want to like read too much. Put on the tinfoam hot, bro. Go crazy. Give me, give me the theory. He buys the stock. I think, the stock goes up and then use that to merge in XIA. That would be the 3D chess if something if something crazy happens. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I mean, obviously Tesla, fantastic AI team built self-driving like one of the best, if not the best self-driving system. The employees that were laid

off were doing like data labeling, right, which which can be. Probably non, equity comps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And increasingly there are tons. Yeah. It's interesting because there's been tons of competition in that space between scale, Mercor,

handshake, what's that other one? It's not Volt, it's like a surge. So there's a few. Turing, Mercor, Surge. So there's a few companies that are outside contractors. Label box. Label box, yeah. I just heard a label box add on Dwar Cash.

It's fantastic. So this is a service that you can very much buy from a highly competitive market and effectively outsource that role. A few companies have brought it in-house. It seems like XAI is going from in-house to outsourced. But I think not too much to read into on the X-AI side. There was a post in here. Maybe we can pull it up. But let me see.

It's deeper, deeper, deeper. The, uh, yes, so another one of those posts by Zephyr. Zephyr's really been on a tear, 1.4 million views on this post. B. Elon, co-found open AI for humanity. Watch Altman flip it into Microsoft's loot box, quietly.e. Launch XAI, post, post, poach the best GPU whispers from deep find open. So, uh, meta, yes. At 1.23 trillion this year.

Mm-hmm. This year. And now this year. Okay. And now Zuck is, sorry, Elon is, like, is north of that today. Okay.

Says, uh, yeah. Considering the revenue and earnings difference between those two companies, it says a lot about Elon's ability to, uh, make people believe and give them like optionality on so many different tech trends. Yeah, I mean,

he's making transform. They're making chips. Yeah. It's a very, I feel like the market still very much believes that self-driving cars will be a thing and it'll be big. And Tesla's bleeding in that market and, or, you know, at the top of it. And same thing with robots. Like, you know, we grew up watching sci-fi films or some of us did. I don't know if you did, but watching sci-fi films of robots.

If robots are a thing, Elon is going to figure out a way to make money on it. So that's always been the story in recent history of Tesla's bull case. And certainly Elon's betting on that. But the bull case for XAI, this is the data that came out from OpenRouter, which I was talking to Tyler about a little bit over the weekend. So GROC code Fast 1 is now the number one ranked model on OpenRouter with 1.06 trillion tokens generated. Claude Sonnet 4 is at 343 billion tokens.

GPT-5 is down at 72 billion tokens. And I sent this to Tyler and was like, I don't believe that GROC is four times bigger than Claude and 10 times bigger than GPT-5. Like this just doesn't seem right. And Tyler kind of broke it down for me what's actually happening on OpenRouter. So can you explain when people use OpenRouter,

what type of data would be included in this particular data set versus, the broader LLM inference market. Yeah, so is my mic on? Yeah, you're good. My thesis is basically like, you use OpenRouter when you're doing kind of low intelligence, but like high volume things

when price matters a lot. Because if you look at the top models, a lot of them, there is like Claude, there is Gemini, but then you see a lot of open source models, which are like super cheap to inference. So, like, at least for me, whenever I use, like, I do a bunch of inference on different models. Whenever I use, like, OpenAI or Anthropic or Gemini, I'm usually hitting their, like, actual API. I'm not using OpenRouter.

Directly. Yeah, because, like, maybe there's some sense where, like, there's different params that aren't actually exposed via the OpenRouter API or something like that. I think it's probably generally true for a lot of people. But if I'm using, if I just need like super cheap intelligence, then I just go in open router. I see, okay, this is like a pretty good model. It's like super cheap. I'll just hit that. And then sometimes if the inference is like super slow, I just, I can really easily switch to a different open source model.

Sure. So that's kind of my thesis. So it's also why if you look at the kind of total like tokens inferenced, it's like, okay, Claude Sonnet 4 is at 500 billion of the past week. which if you kind of map out what the actual revenue is from that, it's like a super tiny amount of what their revenue like is probably. If you kind of think there's some numbers leaked. The leaked numbers for Anthropic are,

it's around $4 billion a year in business, probably more now. So you work backwards and you get to like, they should be making like 250 million a month. And this data, only, accounts for something like $12 million of that 250. So the the actual frame is like 95% of their business or something like that 90% of their business is happening directly on their API and then 5% of their business is happening in open router. Yeah or something like that I didn't include the input tokens we

yes like about it's like 10x cheaper so it's like at least in that order of magnitude yeah but it's significantly less than like what it should be where like I've used grok a fair amount via API or I've never used it through GROC's API I've only used it through open router got it so I think that's probably true also like one of the reasons you might see GROC code fast one being surprised that at least since it's release I think it's still free in cursor and Klein and I don't know if they're using open router they're using some kind of router in the back right because you can cursor is yeah obviously because because you can select like

GROC or Anthropic or... Well, isn't that just their own router? It could be. Okay. But they could be sitting on top of them. Yeah, I mean, it's like very easy to use it. So, yeah. I think those are some of the reasons why you might see.

Yeah, so I think. Yeah, so I think this, this post, this is sort of like, you know, meme incendiary, written for virality. The default story it's telling is like, oh yeah, like, grok is, you know, 10 times bigger than Open AI. And that's probably not right, but... Charts are great for marketing. Yes.

And whether you're hitting number one globally in the HEP store, here, where your charting matters a lot, right? And it's natural for companies to share the charts that are good. When they're good. When they're good. Exactly. And they're just snapshots, too. And charts, yeah, charts are... And so what is this actually...

What is the actual interpretation here? here. Like they're winning on open router, which means that they're like GROC has successfully delivered a level of intelligence that is affordable. Yeah, I would say like you I would almost put this model, um, yeah, comp it to like just open source models, like coin or something, rather than like kind of the, the, you know, frontier reasoning models. Got it. Um, so you could say they're, they're winning kind of in that field, even though it's not

open source, it's still in that similar like price range. Yep. Um, there does. seem to be value in soaking up some of the demand that's further down the cost curve or maybe more price sensitive users? Yeah, it could also be like, I mean, the model is still good enough where like even if it's worse on a single shot compared to like chip D5, if you just run it 10 times, it still will be a little bit cheaper and you're like kind of at a similar spot.

So where you can just kind of max out on volume instead of like your intelligence per token is less. But if you just run way more tokens, then you're at similar intelligence. It'll still be cheaper. So maybe there's some kind of factor there. So, like, lightly bullish for the XAI team. They've clearly built something that people want at a specific price point. It's definitely good.

Yeah. I mean, I haven't seen, like, I don't really use, like, the newest GROC model, like, their frontier one. Is it three? Yeah, I guess three. I almost never use it. Yeah. So this is maybe, like, one of the first examples of GROC models, like, really being used a lot. Yeah.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the company. Yeah. The roll-up theory is kind of interesting to toy with. There's a bunch of... Imagine Axe the Everything app integrated with Tesla. That's a funny outcome if that's what happens. I would be basically forced to buy a Tesla. I would definitely buy a Tesla.

I mean, buy one and then take it to the shop and manual swap it and naturally aspirated V-12 in there. What if they just came at and said you can't use... X when you're moving fast unless you're inside of a Tesla. Force people to transition out of traditional cars. That's the next catalyst for the next five million. I really hope Tesla ships the Roadster. I saw someone on the timeline maybe a week or two ago talking very sad.

Like a super Tesla bowl owns multiple Teslas, owns the stock saying that they canceled their roadster two, reservation after maybe eight years of waiting, something like that. And I'm, I still put down like a hundred bucks? No, no, no, no. The Roadster was like, was like over 10 grand. I'm pretty sure. So a real, real deposit. But also you hear this crazy stat where people are like, well, if you'd put it in Tesla stock instead, it would be worth $5 million. And it's like, well, that's not really like a fair comparison. The cyber truck reservation was like $100. bucks. But the Roadster 2 was, I mean, it's, you know, I think people knew that it was going to be several hundred thousand dollars, supercar territory, but it just hasn't, hasn't moved. But I think

that they should do it. I think it'd be good. They need a, they need a halo car. The cyber truck's kind of working as a halo car, but the design language is a little bit, a little bit too disparate from the core portfolio where if you see, if you see an Audi R8, you're like, oh, Audi's cool. Maybe I'll get an A4, right? Like, because there's some styling cues that are the same. But if you walk into the Tesla dealership and you see a cyber truck, you're not like, yeah, Model 3 really like speaks that language, right? It's like they're wildly different designs. So maybe if over time, the three and the S and the X and the Y, they all update to have a little bit more of that cyber truck language, the cyber truck can work as a halo car. But right now it feels

like a very different car from like a very different like brand world essentially it's cool but I want to see in other Elon news per frock four is their smartest the boring company posts the smartest fastest safest tunnel boring machine in the next iterations five five six and seven are already being built at the boring company factory in Texas goal is continuous mining and zero people in tunnel Z pit and they're they're hiring exceptional mechanical engineers electrical engineers and software. The boring company has just not gotten really any attention for the last few years. We've been grinding.

It's so funny to think about a world where you look up and you see starships being launched. And if you could look down, there would just be, you know, tunnel boring machines everywhere. But this one's a sleeper. I hope to see more out of them. Yeah. I mean, it's tough. It's heavily regulated. to build stuff underground.

Not going deep enough. Takes a long time. Go deep enough, nobody, the regulators won't know. Yeah, I heard one interesting thesis that was like, it's just like the underground domain is like, it is a resource. It's essentially real estate if you can build stuff down there, even it's just a tunnel. And that's extremely valuable because it's effectively free.

Like, it's a free resource. Yeah. Just like space. Tyler, can you, I'm not going to pretend like you're supposed to know this, Can you try to figure out, like, who regulates once you get? Because I would assume, like, a hundred feet below your property is, like, probably, like, there's some traditional property law. Yeah, I would think that there's nothing.

If I could dig a tunnel down there, I would just assume that I have some ownership over what happens there. But I think if you go deep enough, I mean, is that not, like, the play? What would you be okay with? If some random person was like, Jordy, hey, I got a tunnel. I'm building a tunnel under your house. Don't worry, it's 500 feet. Would you be like, yeah, cool? Or would you be like, I would prefer not to happen?

500 is fair game. 500 is fair game. As long as if they can prove out safety, right? I don't want any type of collapse. I like the level of which my home is at. Yeah. And the Ultradome. Yep.

I don't want to suddenly feel a jolt to fall through the earth. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I have yet to tour the, the boring company tunnel built one in Las Vegas is kind of a demo. There's been a few that have built. But I mean, this is one of those businesses that I think has just been building, building, similar to Neurrilink, like working, chopping wood, grinding stone in the earth.

And yeah, maybe something happens here. Tyler, did you get any closer to an answer on how unregulated the underground domain, the subterranean, subterranean domain? Yes. So this is Chetabot. It says courts generally say that you can go, you own the ground beneath your land, only to the extent that you can reasonably use it. There you go.

So there was a court case in 1946, the Supreme Court rejected the to the center of the earth doctrine. So you don't just own everything below you. So usually it's like maybe a thousand feet is kind of the extent. And then below that is just, I guess it's just free rein. Do you know this? You're not using more than a 10 feet below your, I'm sorry, Tyler.

The second you have property, I'm burrowing a tunnel. underneath it, I'm going to be hanging out under there, and you're going to have to prove that you can get down there. I do think that there's a massive market for bat caves. You know, it's very hard to do ADUs. ADUs are booming now in California, but it's still hard to actually go and add real estate to a house. We have a housing crisis. Why not just have the tunnel company come build and just be like, hey, we built you the perfect man cave. underground your house, under your house. If you want us to build a little tunnel up to your bedroom that you can climb down and go enjoy your new movie theater.

Can you imagine being like an angry teenager getting a fight with your parents about? I'm going to the main. I don't want to eat this for dinner. And then you just go in the tube and you go, and then you're down in the back cave. Huge, huge untapped market if they can figure it out. They don't understand me above. Do you know the story of the subway that goes out to Harvard University in Cambridge? I do not.

This is fascinating. So the MTA, the Massachusetts, MBTA, Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority built a subway that goes from Boston out to Cambridge. And when they built it, they wanted it to go through Harvard, Harvard's territory, Harvard's land. And it would have been a straight shot to get from Boston to Harvard. But when you're on the actual subway, it slows to a crawl at one point and starts the wheel screech and go, as you're going around, this weird

curve. And I was very unclear on why the metro, why the subway needed to take a curve when you can clearly draw a straight line between, you know, the logical places to go from Boston to Cambridge to get off and go to Harvard University. And the reason is that Harvard does own the ground underneath. And the reason that they did a deal. And do you know who they did a deal with? probably some baron uh close he wasn't a king it was our first president george washington well so they got in a they got an illegal battle and the Harvard administration fights the Boston Transportation Authority and the Boston Transport and the Boston and the Boston

Transportation Authority says we have eminent domain we you know we own the land we we govern this land you need to let us build this this this in a stray line, it'll be better for everyone. Harvard says no, and we have proof that we actually control the land all the way down to the bedrock. And our evidence is a letter that is signed by George Washington, who said, I grant you this land. And it held up.

And so the subway had to go around. Mogged. And honestly, super inconvenient to Harvard students. And I don't know why Harvard wasn't just like, yeah, obviously build it in the convenient way. but there were probably other considerations. Anyway, turbopuffer, search every byte, serverless vector and full-text search built from first principles on object storage,

fast, 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. Happy birthday to Casey Hanmer, friend of the show. It's been 15 years in this incredible country. He says it's his American birthday. On September 14th, 15 years ago, 2010, he became a U.S. citizen. He says he feels like he's still getting started. Incredible addition to the squad. Thank you to Casey Hanmer for all that you do for America.

Let's play that American Eagle sound. Happy birthday, Casey. In other news. To 150 more. Yeah, to 150 more. In other news, debate continues to rage between Salesforce CEO, Mark Beny. This account is, this account we're featuring here. Just calling balls and strikes.

Yeah, yeah. This is media edit bet. This is journalism. Not conflicted at all. So Palantir hotline with the target says CEOs will do the math and would rather pay Palantir 10 million to make save $100 million instead of pay CRM $5 million to break even or worse. Value creators, greater than value extractors. So not conflicted at all. Not conflicted at all.

And this is a post from John, who was excellent in clipping our Alex Carpenter view. This is such a great quote. Yes. He says, I'm so inspired. I listen to this. Beniof tried talking smack with Kramer and saying, you know, we're winning deals. Carp fired back on TVPN. And now Benioff is taking the high road.

He says, I'm so inspired by that company, not just because they have 100x multiple on revenue, which I would love to have. Dude, are you pulling up? I'm pulling up the video. Let's pull it up. Let's go. It's in the chat now. They're going back and forth. I mean, there is a real discussion.

We talked about it earlier in the show about how Salesforce positions its revenue model, how the market will treat that in the short term. Benny Off and Jim Kramer had a back and forth on mad money talking about how Salesforce it actually makes money and charges the cost. customer and yeah, there is a question about where both these companies go. It's a big, it's a big battle. Anyway, let's pull up the clip of Mark Benioff talking to CNBC about Palantir. You know, an idea out there, and you see it in the valuation of the company, Palantir,

this idea that that's the future of software, it's disrupting software and it's doing so without a marketing team. Oh my gosh, I am so inspired by that company. I mean, not just because they have 100 times. you know, multiple on their revenue, which I would love to have that too. Maybe it would have a thousand times on their revenue soon. But the prices that they charge to their customers, I mean, there's got to be the most expensive enterprise software I've ever seen.

I've been like looking at their demos this week saying, my gosh, how do they get these prices? Because I thought I had analytics, I thought I had data management. Maybe I'm not charging enough. And you're competing with them. We compete with them. In fact, we just won a huge deal at the U.S. Army against them. be insane insane Beniof's a legend yep we're hoping to have him on the show next month we're working on it but that is insane levels of cope you think so

yeah I mean I think this is guy notorious for selling expensive software is angry that someone else is charging more money expensive software that's a good point yeah when yeah on a long you know on a long enough time horizon, this is about the value that you deliver to customers. You need to deliver more value than you capture. And Palantir's got a fantastic pitch. They have fantastic, you know, I mean, we were at,

we were at AIP con, we talked on air and off air with people that are using Palantir's stack. And it's not, I think, you know, they obviously compete in a real way, but there's also plenty of companies on Palantir stack that are not even in conversations with Salesforce around a bunch of different use cases. Yeah, I was about to say that. It does feel like Palantir's position themselves

completely differently from a product perspective in terms of what they do. People think sales, I mean, the ticker is CRM. And so when I hear about like an army deal, I'm like, are they getting a CRM? But I guess that they're just so big at this point that they can do a lot of different stuff. The company, C3, you know them?

C3.A.I. They have the ticker AI. AI. I was going to say, Mark Benioff should buy them just to get the AI ticker to come into the next era. Yeah, just rebrand your ticker. There's been a lot of ticker foo. People, I mean, Mark Zuckerberg with the meta rebrand, getting your core brand on the theme or defining the theme is somewhat of an underrated strategy.

It's like a good dot com, a good ticker. that people can just go and say, I want exposure to AI. I'm getting C3 AI. I want exposure to CRMs. I'm getting dollar sign CRM. That's a potentially new fund with the strategy of just investing based on the narrative surrounding, the narrative that you construct around the ticker.

Yes. I need an AI company. Maybe, maybe. I need a CRM company. Well, whatever you're building, you need to get your brand mentioned on chat, TPT. You need to go to profound, reach millions of consumers who are using AI

to discover new products and brands. Good and profound. Should we go through the Wall Street Journal article? We were featured in the Wall Street Journal if you're just tuning in. Dylan Abrascato says on acts. I'm joining TVPN as president, John, Jority, and team have built something incredibly special.

And after starting my career at CNBC, this feels full circle. Dylan also ran partnerships for HQ trivia during their heyday, which is a crazy journey. He'll have to jump on the show sometime to talk about it. Dylan also,

knows about sports, which is huge. This is a major unlock for us. We're going to learn so much about sports. We now have expertise on sports. It's also very into collectibles, so he's going to be helping us build out the museum. We should sit down with him and ask him, like, what are all the sports?

Like, how do they work? What are the sports? What are the leagues? Yeah, what are the leagues? What are the plays? Yeah, the plays would be interesting. I would love for him to name every play, get up to speed on the plays.

That would be very cool. I don't know that we have to go through this. Maybe we can just, maybe we can pull out some of the key, some of the key quotes. Yeah. What else is here? They call this podcast, but they didn't put us in quotes, at least not total.

Total victory. Big, big shout out to the. Total victory. To the Wall Street Journal. I wanted to highlight one quote in here. Let me find it. This was my favorite part. And I hope that that doesn't sound important.

Who said this quote that's your favorite quote? It's a quote that I have said when talking with Katie, the journalist over. I said, well, we said, this is Katie's reporting. She said, the duo has a laundry list of moves. They have zero interest in making, forming a content studio, creating a network of shows, pivoting to political coverage, raising capitals, setting up a,

a venture fund and selling. And I said, we're perfectly fine with there being somewhat of a ceiling on the size of the business. Hayes said, we're not building for an exit. We want to retire on the mics, on the air. I love it. I told Katie that, at some point decades into the future, there will be a final show. I hope it is many decades from now.

But we hope to retire here on the mics. I hope to see John Exley's name. the chat or one final salute but um anyways absolutely love the journal and um fun to to be in there for the first time very fun uh did you see mike tyson dropped mr beast i did i just dropped in the timeline that's pull this up mike isaac said Tyson nearly houdini'd mr beast on camera are you familiar with this story didn't houdini didn't he houdini himself i don't actually know what is being hudina Tyler what happened with houdini i i mean this is like from when I was in like fourth grade,

but I was told that basically he got punched in the stomach just like this, but he like, he didn't like clench or anything. Oh yeah. So he had a, I remember now, so he had a whole bit of letting any guy could just punch him. Whoa. And if you flex in the right way, pretty much, you can take a punch.

You can take a punch. Sure. But a guy, I guess, caught him when he wasn't like ready for it. It just broke a rib or something, internal bleeding and Houdini passed away. RIP to a real one. Let's pull this video. Let's play the video of Mike Tyson.

For Mike Tyson. Whatever you're ready, up. Is that straight to the liver? Oh, that is intense. Whatever you're ready? Up. He really. Whatever you ready?

Okay, okay, that's enough. That's enough for that. Do you think he was doing a bit of acting there because there was such a viral moment? I don't know. It wasn't like a liver. I don't think that was a liver shot. There's like a longer version I saw and he's like still down there for like another 10 second. Yeah, yeah.

That's just. Yeah, but is he just acting? He's an entertainer. He's an entertainer. I think he knows, I think he knows to entertain, but at the same time, I think he knows that it is like he can talk to Tyson and say, hit me hard, but don't actually take me out entirely. And Tyson can dial it into a point where Tyson knows, yeah, I'm not going to break your rib, but I will knock the wind out of you. The thing seeing the Tyson Jake Paul fight is watching Tyson all these years later with just like this. incredible form and like movement despite being like long retired was yeah it was cool it was cool to see it was literally like riding a bike for him I pulled up we were talking about tickers earlier people that wanted to to invest in CRM could buy hashtag CRM

yes could buy C3 by buying AI on public.com investing for those that take it seriously of course they have multi-acid investing industry leading yields not financed by millions trusted by billions soon yep But I pulled up some tickers here, and I wanted to help you build a portmolu. Oh, you have more funny tickers? Okay. Start, we can do ticker cake. Cake.

For the cheesecake factory. No way. That's good. That's hard not to go on a cake. Taco. Taco. This was Del Taco. It used to trade under that before they got acquired.

What else you got? Bud, Anheiser Bush. Okay. Yeah. Boston Beer Company traded under Sam. I'm still, yeah, that makes sense, but I would expect the ticker being beer. Like, I want the ticker to be generic, you know? For Budweiser, I would expect the ticker just to be beer.

I would expect the ticker. I got another one. It needs to be generic. You're totally generic. I got to, okay, next up. Hog, guess. H-O-G. It must be a baking company.

makes bacon. Close. Harley Davidson. That's still, it's still stepping away. That's good. That's good. You want to invest in hog?

That is a very funny ticker. If you want to have broad exposure to hogs. Yes. No, no, no. It doesn't actually give you

exposure to hogs. What else? Anything else? There's a few. There's a few. There's a C.R.Z. Y. Crazy Woman Creek.

C.R. Z. What is that? That's a tiny bank in Wyoming. OTC. Somebody made a cannabis ETF called YOLO. I wonder how that's doing. I don't know. Probably not great. Yeah. There does seem to be some alpha in having a unique ticker. Like a unique dot. Yeah, YOLO is down 87% all time. Hopefully you didn't actually YOLO into YOLO. Be careful. Just absolutely brutal. If it looks like you only lose, you only live once. You only lose once. Go down.

down 87% you only lose everything once you're only gonna be able to if you don't lose everything once you're never gonna be able to make it all back yep yeah one trade hey maybe maybe the thesis for Yolo was this is a generational opportunity to go short you could be up 80% if you went short yeah with size what you got uh guess so I have one play play yeah Dave and Busters that's okay that's pretty good yeah long playing it's not as much of a pure play as as AI or CRM There's also a love, which is love sack, the beanbag furniture retailer. It's a rival to moon pods.

Don't like it. Yeah, don't like it. Boo. Boo. Boo. Boo. Boo. Yeah.

Good luck to everyone over there. Anyway, there was an incredible exchange between Secretary Wright and Jason Calicanus about solar and Elon Musk at the All In Summit. So Elon has a complete wrong. Yeah, I have the video pulled up. Let's play this. Let's play that. He has a wildly exaggerated view of where solar and batteries will go.

And I'd like, if we could make a bet 50 years out, I'll make a bet solar never gets to 10% of global energy. So Elon Musk has it completely wrong. So this is the US Secretary of Energy, very clearly like long nuclear relative to solar. And it's a hot debate. I still feel like nuclear is growing and there's so much, like how many startups would we talk to in the atomic world? There's something there. Elon, he seems to be a purist about solar and purist about,

you know, not using LiDAR on the self-driving cars. And Elon likes the purely elegant solutions of just like the most efficient thing. But if the, if energy capacity is like messy and you need it at night, like there's only so much that you can do. What do you think? Yeah. I just want more energy. Just give me more. I think that's what, as much as possible.

I think that's what Secretary Chris White is saying. It is interesting. Doug, Doug from Radiant, worked with Elon on a plan to power Mars and ran all the numbers on what it would take to generate. enough power to create fuel out of the ice on Mars to bring a rocket back and concluded that nuclear was the best option left SpaceX started a nuclear company and Elon somehow was unconvinced and went and is still super long solar what's also what's also interesting is that for all of his Elon for as much of a solar bull as Elon is he doesn't seem that indexed to the trend right like you own Solar City

but he's not he doesn't have like a mega production facility he feels longer energy storage than he is totally like yeah solar yeah yeah certainly makes a ton of batteries makes a ton of cars and stuff but it makes sense that you know solar is important to as a story that but I mean if you charge your Tesla in 10 years off of a nuclear power plant like he's still a winner yeah so it's not like he's he's bet his entire career or his entire I've never I don't remember any I'm sure he's spoken about nuclear, but I never remember Elon saying that he was anti-nuclear. Yeah, I think he's just, he's been amplifying a bunch of posts that have been basically from like solar maxis. But anyway, if you're planning your build out of a nuclear power plan, do it on linear.

Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps. Internal Tech emails has some Larry Allison data information from 2002, March 22nd. We cannot remain in denial if we talk with our users every day. Larry Ellison says, our top priority is to get Oracle users delighted with the quality and function of our CRM products. Until that happens, I doubt we will achieve success in the market. The biggest problem is missing features as opposed to show stopper bugs. There are a few of those as well, but they are much easier to fix.

Every applications meeting now centers around representatives from our user community who report back on application quality and set priorities for development. We cannot remain in denial if we talk with our users every day. We need to work very hard to achieve a high degree of customer satisfaction for our sales and marketing products as soon as possible. We will have major improvements by June, but we are unlikely to deliver all we need until September. Doing it by September will require unrelenting focus and a Herculean effort. It will be done, but not unless we change our development and testing process and do a better job of listening to our user community. Larry. Pretty interesting that they were taking such a run at CRM.

I feel like Oracle is not particularly known for that. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what their revenue for the CRM product is today, but they bundle it into cloud applications. Sure. Which is still significant, you know, 3.8. $3.8 billion a quarter. They're already reporting their first quarter fiscal year, 2026. I just hope we get Larry taking some shots at Mark Banioff and some putting the timeline in turmoil. That'd be fun. Anyway, did you see this, did you see this app? Okay. Do you see this? Yeah, we got to get, we should actually get the team on. Yeah, I was, I was texting with the founder,

we should definitely bring him on. But Austin Allred interacted with their chat. It'd looks like he had signed up, given their phone number, and wound up texting with their AI support wrapper, their AI sales wrap. And Austin Al-Read just says, WTF is going on. And so, Pokey identified that Austin is the founder of Bloom Tech and says, what brings you to my digital doorsteps, trying to see how the real AI companies do it?

And it's like this super sassy fine tune of an LLM. And Austin says, yeah. And the Pocke's bot says, Quotes, yeah, that's all the effort you're going to put in. I expected more from someone who tweets about AI productivity all day. Maybe you should enroll in one of your own courses on how to convince AI bouncers to let you in. Austin just says, too much SaaS from AI. SaaS is literally what I'm here for, Austin.

But fine, let me be more direct. Why should you get pokey access when you're already busy running BloomTech, managing angel investments, tweeting about AI productivity? But here's the thing. access to POKE isn't just about follower account. We're looking for people who will actually use it, provide feedback, and help us improve. Your work training devs to leverage AI is interesting.

Tell me more about what you'd actually do with POKE if I let you in. And yes, tweeting about it would help your case. I think that's me, depending on how good you are. Depending on how good you are. And so he has this like sassy exchange with POKE. This is, I don't know if this is intentional, but letting, making the screenshy, of the product marketing for the user's business is pretty smart if it was intentional because he has an incentive to share this because it's saying it's so ridiculous it's funny and it's also look you built an entire business around teaching devs to use AI effectively yeah respect that yeah and so uh Austin kind of closed it out look let's get one thing straight I know you're an AI model you're a bunch of linear algebra running on a machine if you can give me productivity gains then show me how otherwise I'll stop using you I'm not here to impress you you need

to impress me. And so he has this interaction, but it wound up working, right? Like he posted about pokey. He got a bunch of views and likes on the post. It definitely drew our attention to it. So I guess mission accomplished, I still don't fully understand what pokey does. So maybe there's a little bit more to do there. But it is somewhat impressive that during the onboarding flow, the system was able to identify who Austin Allred is. I mean, I guess he's enough of a public figure at this point that if you just hit any LLM and asked who is Austin Allred, it would give you the high level summary of he's an angel investor. He's the founder of Bloom Tech and he tweets about AI productivity. And so maybe that's baked in. But if you could bring this level of personalization, I don't know

that I agree with like the sassy tone necessarily, but if you could bring this level of personalization to interactions, maybe that's good. I don't know. I saw somebody posting that Apple should acquire Pocay, I mean, which is, they, interaction company of California. Oh, really? That's their sub-brand? That's their parent. The parent company.

No, no, no, really? Yeah, yeah. And they've been that way for a while. So remember, we gave it cut off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No more, but then they were the last one through the gate right before the cutoff. Oh, well.

Yeah, I would be interested to hear from the founder, like what the, this is at least like a teaser for what the product does. Like clearly it's a friend.com, sassy, fine-tune on AI. I think it's more, so the difference between this and friend. Friend is not trying to be functional at all other than being a friend, and this is trying to be a functional kind of tool assistant type thing that can, that has more is for friend code. I just mean that there is a world where you're a company and you want to bring

an LLM into your product. And if you're trying to bring in like any other tool off the technological shelf, whether it's a UI component, HTML5, the way a link looks, you will express your brand through CSS, right? Like you will, you might have, everyone has a button on their website, but every button looks different. It's an expression of their brand, right? And so if you're going to bring LLMs or chat interfaces to bear, it makes sense to actually try and bring your brand through in some way and this is a more extreme brand than I think most people would go with but there is something to the idea that even if you're just a large enterprise company you might want your your your LLM voice to actually be an extension of your brand whether that's just being slightly friendlier

or slightly more corporate or slightly use more or less jargon you might just not you might not want to just show up with the default chat chitp t or jemini or whatever flavor of LLM that like people are no people are used to interacting with you might want something that's a little bit something something tells me that's the okay team could help the apple team figure out how to summarize messages without watching them 90% of the time that's a good take yeah um anyway interesting 400 episodes of the greatest podcast of all time in history future Hall of Famer Founders Podcast. Coloss, warm it up and give it a good hit.

Great contact, John. Colossus had the write-up this morning. This week, David Senator has just released his 400th episode of Founders, a milestone that represents far more than a number. It's a testament to one of the most extraordinary learning projects in podcasting history. Over nine years, David has read and re-read 400 biographies and autobiographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, distilling their wisdom into a treasure trove of timeless business principles from episodes one to episode 400, founders has become the ultimate masterclass in entrepreneurial thinking. David doesn't just summarize books. I know what you're thinking.

He excavates the core ideas that built empires, the mental models that created fortunes, and the philosophies that turned ordinary people into business legends. off a little syntax that's not bad form. Do you think that, um, maybe, who knows? Who knows? It's well written. It is, it is funny how Chachapit has just like ruined that entire stylistic will flourish,

which was very, very useful for a long period of time. And now it's like, uh, there was a big movement on, on X, you probably saw where it was like, bring back the m dash, like make, make, make am dashes. legal again because Chachibatiya is like so so clearly like stolen the M-Dash from from writing that you can't use one without getting accused that you know the open AI team doesn't seem to be lying off the m-dashes you see more than ever I thought I think the same amount yeah I thought that the it's not this it's that using the M-dash that was going to be like a stylistical flourish that was

going to be left behind with 4-0 and that five would have a different flavor different structure over the weekend I kept seeing accounts commenting that were clearly running software to basically like look at the original post and write back a response automatically to it. These are people that are trying to build bot accounts up or maybe it's their own account and just want to grow. And I kept wanting to just like break, you know, my phone and just slam it around because it's so annoying to start reading something and then halfway through.

Realize it's. But anyways, this is a very nicely written piece. And a huge congratulations to David Senora. They say, that is 400 episodes down, 1,000 to go. I would put it more in the range of 400,000 episodes to go. That's about right. But if you love David Senora as much as we do, the best thing you can do to make his job,

his life and his job better, is to become one of history's greatest entrepreneurs. Yes. Go on a generational. Get a book written about you. Get multiple books written about you. Maybe die. That helps you.

Some of the founders featured are no longer with us. And you'll give him content that he can immortalize. Yeah. And no, he does cover a live entrepreneur. He made three episodes about Larry Ellison. In 2020, he was on a serious run. Went on a full Larry Allison kick, read three books, wrote three episodes.

Made three episodes. David's story, maybe we'll have to do someday, We will make the Founders episode on David. We will just fully, we'll study for months. We'll just emulate his entire process. Yeah. And, and, because his story is truly incredible, right? It's also, yeah.

He was toiling, he was toiling away for years. Nobody knew his name. Yeah. When I, I discovered the show, I knew from like, I just knew from 20 minutes listening that he was special talent. And I don't know if I was, I think I was one of the first few, I had to be one of the first three sponsors or something like that. You knew this.

Yeah, I think you did mention that. And I said something that was totally, in hindsight, so offensive, I was like, would you consider like selling? That's funny. Because he wasn't generating like, you know, a ton of ad revenue at the time. I was like, look, you can probably make more. And he was just like, no, he said very nicely. He was like, no, I'm not not interested.

But thank you for the offer. And knowing David now, he was thinking like, I would not sell founder of a podcast for $100 billion. It is funny how Sandra's impact and his like, his cachet in Silicon Valley and business broadly is like massive. And he's never written about. Like if you were to actually try and do a found. episode about David Senra.

It would be very hard because he's not someone that people just, like, profile left. He's never really done press. He doesn't do a lot of press, doesn't try to do press. And also gets left out of, like, articles because he just exists in this, in this, like, in this completely insider space where he doesn't really break out all the time.

He doesn't cause a lot of controversy. He doesn't get canceled by random people. He's not out there, like, duking it out. And so I think the mainstream media just doesn't realize how big he is in the podcasting world. And so you have this, You have this weird dynamic where it would be extremely hard because he wouldn't just be like, oh yeah,

just pull up like one of the many profiles on him. Like there are profiles about a lot of people. There aren't that many about him. I think by this time next year, people have I think they'll pick up on it. Yeah. Woken up and written the proper profile. Numeralhq.com, sales tax and autopilot,

spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance. We're getting a little bit of an ERAs tour going on. Andrew Ross Sorkin is on a book tour. This is going to be close to ERA's tour level fervor. And revenue. It's going to be Listomania level. I think people will be shaking, crying, if you're big into financial journalism, fantastic research,

business histories. You're going to want to attend this. Andrew Ross Sorkin is on tour for his new book, 1929. It's a minute-by-minute account of the Great Depression, how it happened, who was in the room, at a very concrete level. I talked to him a little bit about it. It seems like a fantastic book.

I'm very excited for this. He's been working on it for years. Yes. And just a completely different take on the story that you've heard many times about, you've heard it at an abstract level of like there was a financial bubble. The person who was shining the shoes

was giving stock tips and there were all these different accounts. And you've heard them at a very high level about the 1929 bubble. But I don't think the story's ever been told at this level of detail. So very excited for this, obviously. It's one for the finance heads more than the... I just think anybody that's...

I think this will be exciting. And if you are in any of these cities on these dates, I highly recommend going and checking it out and joining Andrew Ross Sorkland for a tour of 1929, his latest book. Matt Palmer hit the timeline last week and said, And there is insane demand for people who can understand and explain technology in a compelling way. Zephy went viral by saying sales. It's called sales.

Kind of a, kind of a, kind of a. Do you think Matt was getting at that? Like what was Matt? Because Matt is, is basically saying. Gabby Goldberg was also saying this is another word for comms. Like comms in its purest form is not about just connecting you to like media and managing those relationships. It's about like figuring out how to position your, position your product and generate attention in your market and drive revenue and all these other things. No, Listomania is a real phenomenon during when Franz List would play.

People would shake and cry and be so excited and faint as a popular thing. Tyler, are you familiar with Listomania? Oh, you got to get up to date on Franz List. It's great, great music. 2.6 million in the chat asks when will TBPN go on tour? That's a great question. We have a lot more to build here in the studio, a lot more to do with the show as it is,

but live events would be fun. We want to put our own twist on them, of course, so we will be figuring that out in the future. Until then, we will be telling you about fin.a. AI, the number one AI agent for customer service, number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bankoffs, number one ranking on G2. You've seen their billboards all around. around Silicon Valley go check them out trunk fan shares the r slash iPod subreddit is full of gen z

and gen alpha kids recommending which mp3 player to buy and bring to school after majority of u.s states have banned smartphones from the classrooms oh that's interesting people are reselling old iPods for 500 plus on ebay old is new this is interesting we had a viral Instagram short talking about the fact that the iPod might be coming the older iPod might be coming off of patent and so there might be

an opportunity to your new version of it. Like the play if you just wanted to generate return clearly a play would have been to go back and just buy if you could go back in time just buy Apple products hold them, don't box them

etc. The question is are people going to attach incredible value to the iPhone 15? Yeah, yeah. The 16. The 17, are there going to be specific generations? I think the original iPhone trades above its value, but I don't think the iPhone 6 does, for example.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure. That's interesting. That most of them lose value. And even something like the original iPhone, I don't think it's outperform the stock market. So it's very much like the collectible car market

where even if you're in, unless you're in the absolutely best performing car, even if you're in a car that held its value and went up in value, like I believe the Carrera GT has not outperform the stock market, even though it's maybe doubled or tripled in value. It's, you know, mid $1.5 million car.

Yes, you can buy a brand new iPhone 6, 16 gigabyte, silver, unlocked. How much? Actually, okay, this is interesting. So the first result is just new. You can tell the box is open. Second one is the iPhone 6, factory sealed, unopened investment grade going for $5,000. 5,000.

But is it going to sell, I wonder? But 5,000, that's a lot. For an iPhone 6, you said? Yeah. Okay, that's a good return, actually. That was a $500 product at the time. Okay, but here's another one selling for, that's sealed for $88. Okay, okay.

I think the market might be. Which one am I going to buy? I mean, yeah, probably. Well, is one of them signed by Tim Cook or Steve Jobs? I mean, it's signed iPhone. Signed iPhone. Very. Anyway, Antonio Garcia Martinez has an interesting anecdote here.

Hyperliquid is generating more than $1.2 billion net income surpassing NASDAX, 2024 net income of $1.13 billion. Remarkably, it achieves this with a workforce, 832 times smaller while directing 98% of revenue to hype token buybacks. And Antonio says, funny that the proverbial four-person unicorn was achieved faster in crypto than AI. Well, and this has happened before there was a, there's a Y-combinator company called like Axe.

I remember you, yeah, you were talking about this. Were they a unicorn? It came out of a batch that we covered. I don't know if they've been valued at a scene. Sure, sure. They were doing like hundreds of millions of revenue. Yeah, yeah. I think comparing hyperliquid, which is like a, is a, is a, a,

Is it more of like an exchange product to an actual stock exchange? Is like that, is that? I mean, it's not the craziest comparison. Yeah. I mean, it still sounds crazy to be like, you know, tiny company generating. No, no, no, no. No, it is remarkable. I mean, you could go further.

Bitcoin, it's a trillion dollar asset. It's a one person unicorn, right? Or maybe a couple contributors, but mostly, you know, extremely tiny. extremely high revenue per employee. But yeah, wild. I still think we will probably see the four-person unicorn in AI eventually. But we'll need to keep tracking it. Can we pull up this video in the timeline tab?

And while we do that, let me tell you about Adio. Customer Relationship Magic. Adio is the AI Native CRM that builds scales and grows your company to the next level. They need a stock ticker. CRM 2, CRM AI, AI, CRM. Five letter stock ticker. I don't think you can do five letter stock ticker yet. We, we know some people at NICC.

That would be a whole, it's like when the new dot AI domains came out or dot XYZ domains came out. There's like this flourishing of new domains that flood the market. If one of the exchanges went to five letter tickers, that could be bullish. Anyway, you wanted to pull up a video. What do you got for us? Rune has a post here highlighting this new humanoid demo. Okay, let's play it. Let's pull it up.

We can't see it. There we go. Whoa. That is crazy. It has some feature that gets it to. It just pops right back up. That's remarkable. Wow, that slow-mo is really insane.

This gets kicked over. Trips. It slips. That's so fast. That's so fast. I think a use case for humanoids that people are always talk about humanoid. Oh, they're going to fold your laundry. Yes.

Yes. I just want to be able to box one. It's a huge market for shadow boxing right now. Yeah. Yeah. Under monetized. Yeah. When you can just kind of be, you know, throwing, you know, big.

Haymakers. I mean, you can go as hard as you want, I guess. Go as hard as you want. You can train the robot robot to, to, all right, you can punch back. but just like, don't, don't take my head off kind of thing. That is wild. Hopefully there's no bucks. That is wild video.

We keep getting those. Do we know what company produced that? Is that Unitary? I think this is pretty cool. Let them go public in the U.S. Yeah. And in five years, we're like, we have seven delays in the divesture. There's going to be, there's concepts of a plan to get unitary, to divest.

in the United States, who knows. Anyway, speaking of tech in Washington, Will Minaitis has a little thread for us. The cultures of tech in Washington are fundamentally incompatible, says Will Minitis. In tech, the foundation of a good career, the foundations are reckless sharing of favors, expecting nothing in return,

endorsing young ideas and people and public networks of influence. In Washington, any of these will end you, says Will. In the fullness of time, tech will end up having dramatically less influence on American politics than finance or any other industry that was once a similar size. We are used to infinite positive sum games. Tech came in like a conquering army and we will be run out by the midterms. It will be a record year for lobbying firm profits, certainly a record year for state house lobbyists as tech learns their ABCs of government.

And you should expect a lot of consolidation and retirements in this space. I love that. But the number of bills will be an all-time. low, this two will fade. If I had to make a trade, I would be willing to bet that we have, that we will have two vice presidents that spent some of their career as venture capitalists before we have a tech native lobbying firm with over $10 million in durable bookings. And Tay Kim says, I think that this is generally true for small to medium-sized startups growing rapidly, but as companies grow larger, the bureaucracy, empire building, power warfare,

gaming of metrics, and internal politics creep in, tech is not immune. interesting to see where tech is going in Washington. Will was on a tear talking about... What's your major takeaway from this? I think Will's really breakaway take this weekend was that... Oh, this is an older post from August 3rd. I don't know how this resurfaced. But I think it was because Will was saying that the tech industry

needs to focus away from the sci-fi stuff, the LEAs. Like tech kind of in AI, technology AI, the foundation model labs, it does feel like they let Eliezer Utikowski set the agenda for what was discussed. It was like all paper clipping debunks and fast takeoffs and Will's discussion of this has centered around this idea that the discussion needs to, if you are engaging in American politics, if you are engaging in Main Street politics, people that actually vote in elections, you have to put it in terms that are relevant to them, which means what will the impact of AI be on your job, on your community? Will it be positive? Will it be negative? There's a lot of work being done right now on like what AI means for Main Street for the average American. And it's definitely an open question. Like the models are at a level that can displace labor for sure. And the impact of that can be positive

if it's handled appropriately, it could be very negative if it was handled inappropriately. And so I think that's where I think the sci-fi concerns have landed on deaf ears broadly in America. And they've been written off just as like, yeah, like, of course, I'll put that in the bucket of maybe there's unlimited fusion energy and we'll be on Mars and we'll be have faster than light travel and we'll have AI super intelligence and all that sci-fi stuff's cool. We'll keep it in Hollywood folks. Talk to me about, like, can I get a job tomorrow? Yeah. And for a lot of technology, there's been a debate about, like, what has the effect on the labor market been?

Unemployment in America is still really low, but are the jobs as satisfying as they used to be? Did people prefer being subsistence farmers? Or are they cool with only 3% of the population doing farming? Like, I think that that's a net gain. I think people are happy with that. I think people actually do like their email jobs, more than being on the farm.

But, you know, I don't know. Some people, you know, it's not that crazy to say, like, yeah, it was actually really rewarding to just be a hunter in a cave and go out and hunt a gazelle. I mean, look at the, look at the trad movement, right? Yeah. So people want to return to just going out. This was the, this is a, off the land. Yeah, this is a transposition of the Unabomber take, that the power process of having the work that you do directly relate to how you survive.

So if you go out and you hunt the gazelle and you bring back the gazelle and you eat, that provides for survival. And the further you get away from that, wants the point that you're doing an email job to buy food at the grocery store, That is an abstraction that makes it harder to satisfy the fundamental power process that every, that is innate in every human. And so AI could wind up benefiting everyone, but making everyone's job more abstract. Because it's like, I don't even paint the painting anymore. I just prompt it. And even if I'm making the same amount of money. Did you see two people now, like if you wanted, like the models are actually better at prompt engineering than human?

I saw this. So they used to be like, oh, don't worry, you're going to be a prompt engineer, you're going to be fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, actually just saying, asking the model, what's the best way to prompt if I want the model, if I want this kind of output? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've done that a lot. I actually go to ChatchipT and say, build me a V-O-3 prompt that will describe this particular scene and flesh it all out with the level of detail that will get me consistent video output. But there's still obviously a ton of value in creativity.

coming up with interesting ideas. There's still a ton of value all over the place that hasn't been eroded. And at the same time, one day we'll be saying, okay, well, the models are plateauing and the enterprise adoption isn't that high and labor productivity isn't spiking. So the actual rollout, like, we're looking at like,

what, $4 billion in Anthropic, $12 billion at Open AI? Like, there isn't that much value that's being generated. China's AI action plan is, we're gonna integrate AI into, manufacturing workplace. We're going to drive productivity and efficiency across the enterprise. Soham, not Sohom Perique, soham ETW says my Twitter account has more MRR than most YC

startups. And I think that is entirely untrue in itself. It's true in two ways. or it's untrue in two ways. There are two flaws. First off, the average MRR at YC startups is certainly higher than the X creator payouts. Like the X creator payouts are usually,

I would be shocked if it was over a few thousand dollars for some. He's kind of just taking a shot at YC startups for having like low MRRs. But when we talk to these companies, the MRs are usually in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars. Oh, so this guy created an open source version of Clue Lee and called Cheating Daddy.

A free and open open source app that lets you gain an unfair advantage. What you were looking for, what everyone wanted. Well, Casey Flint put Soham in the Truth Zone. Said one day, people will learn what the middle are in MRR and ARR stands for. Not today though. Tyler, do you know what the middle R in MRR stands for. Isn't it recurring? It is recurring. Why did you have to take so long? Did you think it was Millie and the reply says R for random monthly random revenue? Yeah, we had

a bit of revenue here, a bit of revenue there. We counted, you know, this revenue that was over these four months in this month. Yeah, there was someone. No, that some people say I am at a hundred million ARR and you can say that can be also seen as annualized run rate. Yes, ARR. Somewhat disingenuous if you're trying to market it as like annual recurring revenue. Contracted.

Yes. But I mean, to be fair, like there is a wild, there is a wild like gap between the quality of ARR. Like there are some, there are some companies that have contracts that are so ironclad, they would bankrupt the customer to try and get out of them. Like it is written in stone that you're paying that bill every month for the next five years. Yeah, Elon went to war with a bunch of SaaS providers during the Twitter. When he got in there at Twitter and he was like, wait, we're spending how much.

How much on this? How much on that? And just said, you're not paying. And he probably was able to pull out of a lot of those that were booked as ARR as true annual recurring revenue. Yeah. At the same time. But again, it's like if there's a degree, even if something is contrary, If they have to sue Elon in order to get the money back, it's like, or get what they're owed.

It's like at a certain point they'll spend more in the lawsuit than the actual value. And Elon probably ran the number. Yes, don't misstate your MRR. Don't misstate your A-R. Just be honest and tell your investors and folks what's really going on with your business. How did you sleep last night? I slept fantastic. slept fantastic. Me too. That must be why we're feeling so good. I only got an 86 but I got so I got I I spent

not the full night in the in the eight sleep. So I got a 76. It says I only slept six hours but I got another three in the kids bed before. So I got like nine hours. I'm feeling fantastic. I need to get an eight sleep in his room so I can like merge all the data together give it the real the real picture. Anyway, you can go get an 8Sleep at 8Sleep.com. Get a pod five, five-year warranty, 30 net risk-free trial, free returns, free shipping, net cap girl. We must. It's from 2022. Yes.

This is what started at all. We must return to an era of naming companies like American Computing Corporation or U.S. semiconductor. The days of cute and silly startup names are over. No longer is it sufficient to just drop a vowel from a word and call it a day. We must build serious companies with serious names. Wow. And again, this was the browser company of New York already existed. Yep.

They had kind of done that. It was the start of the trend. It was the start of the trend. Yeah. But then we got the AMCA. But then we got AMCO. American Manufacturing Company of America. No, advanced manufacturing.

He doesn't have two Americas. That would be the real final boss. The New York browsing company of New York. Yeah. The American browsing company of New York. of America. People have been having a lot with this. This meta, this meta is over. Should be no, the American Computing Corporation or US

semiconductor. I still think this is wide. No, I think it's I think it's over. I think going forward, I want it's Cougain and Sons. Yeah, last names. Cougain and Sons. Chris Amadon did this. Oh yeah, he did. He did this. But it's an evergreen meta. Yes. No one can say, oh you name the company. You can take it further.

Amidon sounds like the name of a startup a little bit. It kind of works like it's not amadon and sons it's not amadon and amadon that's what I want I want someone to come in with the with the Cosgrove and Cosgrove Cosgrove and Cosgrove LLC and build a biolp solution or something business process outsourcing something like that anyway whatever your startup name is throw it on a billboard get on adquick.com out of home advertising made easy and measurable say goodbye to the headaches and I don't want to advertising only add quick combines technology, out of home expertise, and data to enable efficient,

seamless ad buying across the world. I'm going to let you run through these legendary Hacker News comments. So Hacker News is legendary, Tyler. Are you a hacker news user? Occasionally I'll go on, but I never go into the comments anymore. Yeah, I've only gotten one really solid post on Hacker News. I think I have like 154 karma. But I mean, when I was your age, Hacker News was like the place.

Like it was the spot. Like every single day opening up reading threads. That was where news broke, where the discussion happened. I used to go on there a fair amount. I think I've kind of replaced it with marginal revolution. Oh, really? Tyler posts like whatever five or six links every day. Yeah, yeah.

Are you in the comment section? Even those I don't read those. You don't comment. You're just a lurker? Yeah. Okay. Well, Hacker News is legendary for not enough lurking. These people really have some all-time bad

takes. These are legendary Hacker News comments that age like milk. So the first one, Dropbox, one of the greatest YC companies to come out of the early batches posted. This is from Drew Houston, the founder. He posts on Hacker News. My YC application. Dropbox, throw away your USB drive. Of course, Dropbox is the way to sync and share files on the internet. And Brandon M. chimes in in 2007, right when the company was getting started. I have a few qualms with this app. One, for a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with Curl FTPFS, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted file system. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account

could be accessed through built-in software. Why don't you just do that? Why don't you just build your own Dropbox? It's so obvious. And I love this because obviously the take was, It was wildly incorrect. Dropbox became a multi-billion dollar company. But it's a beautiful bubble to live in where you assume that everyone is comfortable booting up Linux and building a Dropbox competitor on their own. Maybe with vibe coding it's possible. But still, I think people are still using Dropbox. The company's actually been doing quite well and has not been really affected.

Anyway, second, Hacker News posts that age like milk, Bitcoin, peer-to-peer network based on autonomous, anonymous digital currency this is from 2009 and the top comment here says well this is an exceptionally cute idea but there is absolutely no way that anyone is going to have any faith in this currency that is a wild I mean it was reasonable at the time it was a crazy idea and and and it was it was in and the faith in the distributed system took years to build up it was it was seen as a as a toy and then a joke and then a meme and then a bubble and the and then a crash and then another bubble, then a crash and then another bubble.

But eventually it became accepted. And now people have lots of faith in Bitcoin. And even with all the turmoil that we've seen in the market and turmoil in international geopolitics, Bitcoin is now at $115,000 a coin from what was probably a few cents when this post went live. What was the price of Bitcoin May 8, 2009? That is an interesting question.

I imagine it was very low, and now it has appreciated quite significantly. Probably enough to buy a luxury watch on Bezell. Go to getbezzle.com. Your Bezell concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet, seriously any watch. Tyler, do you have the price of Bitcoin? So everywhere I go just says zero. Yeah, so...

Zero. No, but here's the story. Yes. So it didn't have a market value at the time. I'm sure... They were free. Yeah, it was basically free. It was free.

The first recorded real world transaction for Bitcoin occurred over a year later on May 22, 2010. No way. When a guy bought two pizzas. That was the pizza transaction? Two pizzas for 10,000. Wow, I didn't realize it was that old. That is crazy. Somebody was posting about this on Hacker News in 2009, a year before the pizza transaction.

That is crazy. I mean, the pizza transaction is famous, famous. How many, how many bitcoins was it? 10,000. 10,000 Bitcoin. I wonder if there'll be another for two pizzas. I wonder if there will ever be another trade. Like that?

Where you could just pick up. They should make a whole documentary about that trade. Where that Bitcoin went. Do the next person hold? Did the next person hold? How the value accrued? Fantastic. Anyway, in 2020, in 2023, this is a more recent Hacker News comment that age like milk.

Michael Truel from Cursor now worth, I think in the secondary market trading almost north of 20 billion, certainly north of 10 billion. A massive company used by probably millions of developers at this point, posts on Hacker News cursor, a code editor built for programming with AI. And the top comment from YAC account 4 on March 24th of 2023, there's nothing on the official website or GitHub that indicates what this software is other than a cropped screenshot that looks like VS code,

with a prompt pop up over it. And I still can't figure out if this is some sarcastic joke software or something. Wow, age like milk, not great. And the final Y Combinator, Hacker News comment that age like milk, Y Combinator's airbed and breakfast casts a wider net for housing rentals as Airbnb from TechCrunch in 2009. And a hacker news commenter chimes in and says,

Airbnb isn't just casting a wider net. They're changing their entire business model. This is what two decades before Open AI started using their chat. Upti started using this syntax. Airbnb isn't just casting a wider net. They're changing their entire business model because the original one is severely flawed. Renting a room or bed out of your home like a hotel most likely violates multiple tax and business laws in just about every U.S. city, let alone the severe liability that a guest slips in your shower or breaks their collarbone. I've worked at a resort hotel. Cities have specific bed taxes. Hotels have to be inspected. They have liability insurance, vacation rental owners pay taxes. Some cities don't even

allow short-term rentals. Of course, none of that mattered. Airbnb figured it all out. They paid the taxes. They fought the local governments and created new legal structures to satisfy all parties involved and now the business is worth tens of millions of dollars. They say if I wasn't a VC, I wouldn't touch, if I was VC I wouldn't touch this site. That's what it says? Yeah. That's hilarious. Well, if you're looking to go upmarket and find a vacation home with inspiring views,

hotel grade amenities, dream events, top tier cleaning, and 24-7 concierge service, get on wander and find your happy place. Good call cutting to Tyler on that one. It's a vacation home, but better. Hayden identified exactly the trend that you were feeling. This is who you're arguing online with, and it's just a picture of a neural network, of course. And 31,000 people enjoyed it. It really is, the bots are getting wild, wild, wild.

Well, I have some tips for those of you who are using X, the Everything app. I recommend going into the notification filters, and you can turn off notifications from accounts that you can turn off notifications from accounts that you're don't have a verified phone number, don't follow you, you don't follow them. And after you do that, you will basically only see notifications in the notifications tab from people who you're mutuals with, people that you can evaluate their full account to see that it is in fact a real person, maybe someone you know in real life, maybe someone who has enough exhaust on the internet that you can, they've established themselves as an interesting

poster who's clearly not just a bot. And then you will only see those folks in your replies. And then you can always see who's replying to your posts if you click on the actual post. But for the most part, that has dramatically upgraded my experience. I don't get, I really don't get any notifications from just random accounts. I only see stuff from people on mutuals with, people who I actually care about. And it feels the actual experience of being on X feels like being in a very small chat room. Even if I have a post that gets thousands of likes, I'm really only seeing, oh, Tyler liked it.

Oh, you already liked it. Cool. I made them smile. They're my friends. It creates a much tighter, you know, small hometown feel. If I don't like one of your posts, it's got it really bad. Yeah. Because if the, what's the quote?

If there's one person liking one place. There's one like, it's me. It's me. Fantastic. Anyway, we have our first guest of the show or second guest of the show because we already had Bill Bishop on the show in the re-stream waiting room. We'll bring in Pete from Cy Quantum. Pete, how are you doing? What's happening?

Hey guys, how you doing? Doing fantastic. How are you? I hear you have some big news. Break it down for us. What's new? Introduce yourself with the company, please. Oh yeah.

Thanks a lot for having us. I really appreciate it. I'm Pete. I'm a co-founder of Psy Quantum. We are a quantum computing company based in the Bay Area. And yeah, I moved here 10 years ago to build a quantum computer and thought I'd be on the boat back six months later and we're still here and we're still here.

and we're really just like humbled to be now announcing a billion dollar fundraise for us to go ahead and actually build giant quantum computers. Incredible. There you go. It's massive. One billion dollars. Okay. Give us, give us the 10 years in two minutes. Well, I'll give you the, prior to 10 years, that 10 years, myself and my co-founder spent about a decade in the university.

system doing what people think of when they think of quantum computing, which is science experiments in a research lab with single photons and chips and so on and so on, published a ton of papers and then got fed up with that. And some of my colleagues made a bunch of breakthroughs in the architecture for optical quantum computing. And so we sort of developed a conviction that we could actually build a million qubit system. You know, Google and IBM and others are all in hot pursuit of useful. all quantum computing. Everyone today can make systems of tens or hundreds of qubits, but you need about a million qubits. You need a huge system. And so we sort of convinced ourselves that we could actually build that quickly through leverage of the semiconductor industry. And we moved to Silicon Valley, basically to build the organization

that would do that. That meant taking weird devices like single photon sources and single photo detectors that you know you can't find in a regular manufacturing process and putting them into a commercial fab so we spent north of a hundred million dollars and many many years putting superconductors and single photon devices into global foundries fab eight which is very big very mature commercial semiconductor foundry in upstate New York last remaining bastion of pure play semiconductor manufacturing in the United States and um So yeah, like big emphasis on semiconductors basically for many years. We were doing other stuff as well, kind of architecture and algorithms and systems and so on,

but really spending money on semiconductors. Now we have these wafers. We can make like high volume. We can manufacture in pretty high volume the devices that we need. And so our emphasis is sort of switching towards building data center like machines. And so last year we announced about a billion dollar Australian deal with the Australian government. for us to build our first system just outside Brisbane. A few months later, we announced that we'd be the anchor tenant

of a new $500 million quantum computing campus on the south side of Chicago, former U.S. steel site used to make a million tons of steel a year. We are honored to be breaking ground there in a very, very short period of time. And, yeah, just thrilled to be at this level of maturity and sort of readiness now to actually realize these systems. How does the Australian government even assess something?

like this. I feel like the government is not known, I mean, at least the U.S. government's not really known for having like tons of technical expertise internally. Famous examples of like the government struggling to build a crud app for, you know, registering your health care information. It feels like the technical due diligence to understand how to underwrite that investment and then actually get any sort of value out of it. I mean, you have to rewrite systems to actually to actually write something that's going to run on a quantum computer, correct? Like, what was that deal like? What was that, what is Australia optimistic about in having a billion-dollar facility?

Yeah, I mean, governments struggle terribly to build cred apps, but like the entire might of Silicon Valley also struggles to build a good to-do list app. Like, there is still no good to-do list as far as I'm concerned. I have a sort of provocative thesis that building to-do lists is actually harder than building quantum computers but that one will get me in trouble. But, you know, governments have excelled, obviously, in Manhattan projects and James Webb Space Telescope and, you know, space shuttle and you name it, like semiconductors, the internet. And you can also look at companies like SpaceX and Tesla and TSMC and ASML, like the pillars of our economy and our advanced society, those companies

wouldn't be the companies that they are today without literally billions of non-dilative government support in every case. And so I don't think it's unusual that a government supports this. I think governments increasingly understand that hard technology and this kind of frontier technology is sovereign and strategic and dangerous if you don't pay attention to it. We see that very acutely with semiconductors and AI supercomputers. And then you asked about the sort of diligence. So the chief scientist of Australia spent about 18 months together with a pretty big team evaluating what we're doing.

They came to our labs and held us by the scruff of the neck and made us reproduce measurements that we were claiming. There was a Freedom of Information Act request that revealed her emails early in that process. And her emails revealed that she was highly skeptical of us when she first met us. And the Australian press wrote about this in the frame of like, you know, chief scientist, highly skeptical of psych quantum claims, which I'm like, what do you want that to be? Do you want to be like high? Yeah. It's her job to be skeptical. Yeah. And, you know, we were just like super gratified by the end of that process that, um, uh, obviously after speaking to a lot of different different outfits, they, they, uh, they chose us. And then so in the US, so, so sorry to cut you off, but I, what is? So the Australian government, you guys are partnering with them, what is the value that they're hoping to get out of this project? Yes, I mean, I think like if you look at semiconductor fabs, if you look at the current effort to get DSMC into Arizona, if you look at some of the sort of horse trading that's going on around the location of AI supercomputers,

I think nations now understand that it is strategically important where these systems, are built. And, you know, when the US incentivizes TSM to build in Arizona, the U.S. government isn't buying chips from TSMC, you know, they're not owning the fabs. They're just making sure that that infrastructure is built on a piece of land that they care about. And to first order, the Australian thing is structured the same way. It's worth saying that Australia as a nation has been historically forward thinking in investing in the academic foundations of quantum computing. So a lot of the basic research, two of my co-founders, a lot of the early work on optical quantum computing and error correction all came out of Australia.

And so it's pretty poetic and touching actually that it's heading back to Australia where it all started. What's the, what are some of the use cases that you're excited about? talk about like, oh, you'll be able to break Bitcoin. That'll be like disruptive or cryptography. But is there... Or quite profitable. You guys do it.

It's the same as like asteroid mining gold. If you get, if you bring it, you know, $10 trillion of gold to America, what happens. But in the context of AI and supercomputing, like actually like delivering business value is there sort of like a near-term scenario where quantum computing can drop the cost of inference or unlock a different scale of training or or will the the architecture of what we are doing with AI fundamentally change once a million cubic computer comes online? Yeah, so we're not going to replace DPUs, we're not going to replace AI supercomputers and although there is sort of some papers that talk about quantum machine learning, that stuff is

really early at the moment. If someone tells you they know how to do quantum machine learning today, you should be pretty skeptical. Sure. What we're excited about is, you know, the way I think about this is that language models now, I visualize them as this sort of expanding frontier that's just like eating through everything we do with computers and by the way, everything we do in our lives and so on. There's a known limit to that beyond which we don't expect conventional computers will go.

And on the other side of that threshold is chemistry. material science, drug discovery, fuels, catalysts, fertilizers, semiconductors, like the microscopic foundations of our physical world, where conventional computers have a really, really hard time doing those simulations and where we don't have the training data in general to train AI models that will reach far into that virgin territory. And that's what we're really excited about with a quantum computer. A quantum computer calculates from first principles rather than making approximations from from data. And through that kind of first principles calculation, we think we can reach much, much further into unexplored territory. The other thing that's maybe interesting is that at

CyQuintan, we make the highest performing photonics in the world against the whole bunch of figures of merit. And of course, Photonics is increasingly being viewed as a potential solution to what is otherwise maybe a difficult situation in the scale up of AI supercomputers, where we run out of power, run out of space, run out of money, et cetera. What were the key unlocks that allowed you guys to put together this billion dollar round? It's certainly the larger than most IPOs. Yeah. Yeah. So we, I mean, it's pretty surreal, to be clear, right? Like, this is the only job

I've ever had. The only other real job I've had is working in a garden center stacking compost. So, yeah, it's, I should be clear. Like, this isn't, this doesn't feel normal. It feels pretty crazy to me. I'd put it also in context with other things that have happened in Silicon Valley where people have spent a way larger amount of money before they get to a product on things that are debatably more or less valuable than a quantum computer. But the unlock one of the biggest things that we did when we raised our Series D with BlackRock and Tamasik and others, Bailey Giffords, We told them that we were going to unlock one of the hardest problems for us, which is a new material for optical switching. We had to build an enormous crazy machine here in the South Bay, biggest molecular beam epitaxy tool in the world, molten titanium inside, liquid helium inside.

Huge risk for us, and without that, there's no way we're building an optical quantum computer. The shipping company dropped that into the Alameda Bay and broke it, so we had some trouble during COVID. But we got it done on time. We delivered. We got it built. And then the other thing that we've done is, is it still at the bottom of the ocean? Or did you get it back? It just like fell and cracked.

Okay. We were like late on the schedule. Some scuba diving equipment. Go down. Not quite. John scuba certified. I like scuba diving. I like treasure.

willing to help out. That's amazing. I mean, there's got to be some amazing stuff down there, like out on the port at Alameda. It's got to be some beautiful stuff. But then the other thing we did, you know the chandelier, like the golden chandelier that politicians love to take photographs with. We got rid of that. Okay, got it. That's in the trash.

What do the energy requirements look like over the next decade if we assume that there's a million cubic quantum computer running? Are we going to see a similar race for just like intense energy production that we're seeing in the AI supercomputer computer buildout? No, it's like it's like the same story but told backwards is what you should expect with quantum computing. So like, yeah, AI and conventional data center. It's pretty helpful for us given that we're talking about building big machines. Ten years ago in Silicon Valley, if you were talking about supercomputers or HPC or like building a big computer, people would like fall asleep in the meeting and throw you out of their office, right?

It's nice that we're now surrounded by people who are sort of brave about building big machines. But we are going to build a big machine. And then the good thing is that the three months into building it, it's already going to be out of date, right? Like we're at the beginning of that sort of densification, miniaturization, power efficiency journey, whereas AI and conventional supercomputers, I think, are coming to the end of a multi-decade journey

of more and more efficiency and so on. So it's actually pretty exciting that we should be able to further miniaturize and densify these systems over time. Yeah. It's fascinating stuff. Thank you for hopping on the stream. I learned a lot. Thanks for having us.

This is such a complex industry, but it's been really fun tracking all the progress. I don't think we've had any, any, this is the very first. This is the first quantum company on this show. I haven't put, I haven't thrown out a lot of invites because I'm so out of loop on it. But thank you so much for taking us through it

and actually explaining it in terms that even I can understand. I really appreciate it. Have a great rest of your day. We'll talk to soon. You're the man. Our next guest is already in the stream waiting room to bring them in, and I will let you take the introduction. What's going on?

Welcome to the show. Please pronounce your name before I butcher it. Sadie, con. Sadie, great to meet you. Great to meet you. And welcome to the show. Introduce yourself and the company. Yeah, I'm Sadie. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Avin. Avon is a home equity back credit card company.

We launched our home equity card about four or five years ago, and it's been on a tier since then. In 15 minutes or less, you can say 50% or more on your multi-interest rate as a homeowner in America. We just announced our Series E last week, and we're excited to do the company. Thank you. Series E. Hard to get into those numbers across four years. What, uh, walk it, walk us through, I guess, um, yeah, I'd love to, I think it's, I think our audience will generally understand how if you have a credit card backed by your home equity, it'd be easier

to be competitor, uh, competitive from a rate standpoint, but, um, break down the actual way that you, you make this, uh, work. Yeah. So as you know, there's about, traditionally a home equity credit card take home equity in general takes about 30 days to originate and cost thousands of dollars. And as you know, a credit card takes a few minutes to get from Capital One or Bank of America, any great bank. And so we started with this mission of how do we make it as fast as a credit card to get a HELOC? And so we got it down to as fast as 15 minutes by machining down this process for maximal efficiency. And so whether it be like robot arms that do signatures to automatic income verification with the IRS, to everything in between, we're able to compress this thing down to,

15 minutes, so it feels as convenient as a credit card, but you get the rates of a helot and the rewards and the convenience of a credit card. And so we offer 2% unlimited cashback on every single transaction that you do on a he lock for the first time ever. And you get it in the form factor that you can go to Home Depot and spend $1,000 on lumber, or you could go to Whole Foods and spend $5 on a banana. And our customers have been able to do both. That's pretty incredible.

What I guess what were kind of the key unlocks in the journey? Was there, how did you navigate, like, how has like the interest rate environment kind of impacted the business as well? I mean, ultimately there's always going to be a lot of home equity that's just locked up that people aren't able to leverage, regardless of the rate environment. But I'm curious what trends you've seen. Yes. So I think at a very high level, our goal is to build a product which has the lowest cost of capital for consumers after your primary mortgage.

So regardless of the interest in environment, if it's high or if it's low, that's something we don't control. Jeremy Powell controls that. So regardless of what the interest rate does, our goal is to come in and offer every single consumer the lowest cost of capital after your primary mortgage. And we've generally historically done that. And when interest rates go up, there's generally two. two or three things that happen and interest rates go down, roughly the inverse of those two or three things happen.

So I think we're all expecting interest rates hopefully to come down a little bit for consumers over the next few months on the next Fed meeting. And the three things that I think will happen are, A, we will expect more demand for capital, right? More people will use more credit, generally speaking, across not just our product, across all products. We become actually more competitive in some ways because if you kind of think about it, the interest rates dropping drops to a larger proportion. they drop affects a HELOC or a mortgage by a larger proportion than a traditional credit card, which is also a variable rate product. And then finally, there is some kind of trace effects of how interest rates and mortgages kind of interact with one another where due to the very low historical interest rates,

people are sitting on extremely low mortgage rates. But because of the increase in interest rates, people are not able to refinance their mortgage and get a cash out, which they've done historically. And so they're tapping HELOCs to do home improvement projects, make their home better because it's getting harder to move to a new home and it's getting harder to do a cash out of refinance. Yeah. You said something about robotic arms doing signatures, anything more to that story. What? Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know if you guys, when you guys bought your home,

after Cisco or elsewhere, when you closed your mortgage deed of trust, you had to go to a notary or you had to go to a title closing station and you had to sign a stack of papers, yeah, thick. And we looked at that. And if you wanted to get a mortgage, you had to get a notary, or you had to go to get this thing down to 15 minutes, there was just zero way we can do it by having a notary show up at your house or you go into a title company. So we went, well, how can we figure out a way to be able to do a remote wet signature? And so we invented this robot arm that literally you control from your phone and you can execute what is something called an original wet signature that is acceptable in every single country across the United States. So we can close this thing

down in 15 minutes. We do some crazy shit. Is that that? Is that? Did you guys ever get, I don't know if many people, I'm sure. Regulators hate this one weird trick. Well, it feels like potentially, it feels like potentially a workaround that, how different is it for me to move a pen than it is to move an arm that signs a dock, right? Why do I need to be in the room? I love this. We spent probably, yeah, we spent months going through every single, I mean, people have tried this before,

like trying to build, like a robot arm to do wet signatures. There's a lot of detail in our. our patent that goes down to like the exact amount of memory buffer we have to keep on, you know, the device versus the wire versus your phone to ensure it is always an original signature and not just a remote signature. Well, because my thought was like you could spin this out and it's probably like a billion dollar business by itself. We've been told that before. You've been told that before. There we go. We've been told that before. But we're just very focused on making sure homeowners can get access to the lowest cost of capital today. That's amazing.

Well, congratulations on the funding milestone. And yeah, I'm sure you guys are just getting started. John, how much was it? $110 million. Congratulations. It's the week of the Series E. Overnight success. Overnight success.

Love to see it. Thank you so much for coming on. Great to meet you, Saudi. We'll talk to you soon. Awesome. And our next guest is in the Restream Waiting Room. We have Lucas Singer again from Divergent. I wanted him to drive one of his supercars into the ultra.

I know, I know. And I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that he might be down for that at some point. Couldn't make it happen today. Welcome to the show. How you doing, Lucas? Good to see you. Doing great today. Kick us off.

Did you raise a series what now? Series C? Series E. Series E! There we go. How much? Yeah. Late stage, $290 million.

$1.000. Boom. Congratulations. Triple. It's a hat trick of series ease today on the show. Congratulations. What does that unlock? What's the next phase of divergent?

Accelerating this platform that we've built. So really taking this into scale manufacturing with a focus on defense work. As you might remember, we started an automotive or a deep technology business. We've built this over a decade. But now it's really unlocking additional capacity, capacity to make the most meaningful, frankly, weapon systems primarily in the world and to supply those to our great prime customers and to the U.S. government directly to add over 50,000 square feet to this campus in Los Angeles, but then also to fund the buildout of our future facilities across the U.S.

How are you thinking about the footprint of that buildout? across the U.S. We've heard that famous story about there's an F-35 part that's made in every single congressional district. Maybe it's a coincidence. It does seem like it's important to have a balanced footprint across the U.S. What's the courtship process like? Is it based on tax incentives or local talent?

How do you think about picking a new territory to expand to? Yeah, we think about where we can have the most impact for the nation. So where can we be closest to the customer that's making a product that we can truly be helpful with? And what is the greatest concentration of products and customers? Where is that in the US? And that's where we want to be. And internationally, we think along those same lines, but also strategically, if we're going to be near theater, where does it really make sense to have a facility? And the beauty of these factories is they are digitally defined, right? You've got hardware that can go from making auto parts to defense parts back to back with no downtime in between. So you can be driving a capacity-based model and you can make almost any part, any assembly, one factory, any product, that's our marketing tagline because that quite

literally is what this system unlocks. And we're not ready to say exactly what states we're going to. We've got conversations with multiple, but it's really about the government customer and the prime customer. And of course, yes, the economics and incentive that we can get. I imagine people are competing to win win you over in terms of off you know trying to create the best environment for for a diversion is that is that correct oh yeah yes absolutely and the states get competitive you also see the congressional side of this you see the various stakeholders get involved and you want to be first as well you want to show that your state or your exact county is on the forefront of this and they're bringing digital manufacturing they're bringing the next generation of that

to their location. So yes, we're seeing, thankfully, a lot of demand, a lot of interest and a lot of support for these facilities. Fantastic. Talk about the actual integration with the customer. You said you want to be, you want to deliver value to them. What are the considerations of actually being near a customer? Is that like they're going to have forward deployed engineers in your organization? You're going to have forward deployed engineers in their organization. Is it actually beneficial to be like, walk across the street or is it drive across the town or is it like I need to be near a big airport that's a hub that everyone can fly in and out of I'm not I'm not trying to do 20 questions to figure out where you're going I'm actually just interested in like the business of how you decide that where to

yeah not yet so made my job easy you gave half the answer there so I appreciate that but um no it's really partially logistics as well for our customers so if you think about one of the large they're going to end up doing the integration, say, of a missile system. Integration meaning they're going to put the avionics in it. They're going to put the payload in it. They're going to do whatever their end-of-line testing procedure is, right? And if we as the primary structure supplier that's making that full airframe for them can be right adjacent to their general assembly facility, that's a huge win for that.

Right. And that's almost obvious in how you want to architect your production process for a complex system like that. So as being adjacent to these primes, right, like walking distance or very easy from manufacturing process, potentially even being on the campus of these primes is in our minds. And then on the government side, you look at these depot centers and sustainment and maintenance. And can we be right adjacent to these bases? So if you look at Oklahoma, for example, Tinker Air Base, can we be adjacent to that air base, partner with their Air Force Sustainment Organization and supply parts directly to the base from that factory? At the same time that that factory could flex, use some of its capacity to do work for the primes that are in that locality as well.

And that's also the beauty here is no one is burdened with the full cost because this is a platform and you can share the capacity. you're not asking the government to pay for 100% of it, 100% of the time. You can actually scale and flex and have elasticity to the capital and the risk associated with that capital. Doherty? Any updates on Singer, on the automotive side, specifically the supercar that you guys built? Yeah, no, it's been an amazing few weeks for us. We've got more cars on the road now. So we did our 10th delivery.

As you know, we started deliveries this year. So there's now multiple cars on the road in L.A. It's amazing. Multiple across the U.S. We actually have our first couple cars in the U.K. as well. So we've made our way onto greater European turf with America's hypercar. So I'm very excited to keep building that business out, deliver more cars this year, and then look into actually developing variants of that hypercar.

Won't announce those now. and then also our next vehicle, our next model altogether. And that feedback loop, that integration with Divergent remains very, very attractive. And frankly, when the government or a customer comes and they come to this campus and they see the Divergent facility, then they walk right next door and they see the General Assembly of the 21C, the Hypercar, that shows them almost the relationship between us as a subcontractor and the prime as the prime integrator, right? we're actually putting our own dollars in front of our statements there on how you can integrate

for full product development. What's the shape of the workforce going forward? Obviously, new capital comes in. You're probably hiring. You're probably always hiring. But give me some advice for young people that want to get into doing work that might still be around in 30 years. Yeah.

Yeah. This and that we truly are software and hard. We built our own software, design engine, we've got our own manufacturing software, but we also build hardware. We build our 3D printers, we build our assembly cell, we actually engineer those materials. So in terms of scope within one business and amount of vertical depth in each of those pillars, is really tremendous here. When you're starting out, we were mostly hiring, or I was mostly looking for talent that could bring a lot to the table day one, both in terms of their connectivity, but also their knowledge and their ability to operate.

We're now at a point where we're actually able to hire on some of the brightest and youngest engineers and production staff, which is an amazing position to be in somewhere where I've wanted to be for it for a few years. And what we look for in that sort of more entry-level role is really how scalable is that person going to become? What are they already showing today that I can tell is going to make them a great learner and eventually a great operator. And then we have the individuals here that can add to their expertise that they're bringing in. And within one, two, three years, I want to see that entry-level engineer have progressed to a lead engineer or have found his management track.

And pick one of the two and that's what we're screening for is individuals that are going to scale to that next step. That's fantastic. Well, congratulations on the massive fundraising round. Always good catching up with you. Have a great rest of your day. Good to see you. Great to see you both. We'll talk to you soon. And we have our next guest in the Restream waiting room. Kyle Samani, coming back on the show for the third time, I believe. Talk about creating the world's leading Tijuana Treasury Company.

Kyle, can you hear us? How are you doing? What's going on, John, man? Good to be here. Hey, Jordan, John. We're back. We're back. It's great to see you. Good to see you. Always great to catch. You've been busy. You have been busy. Oh, dude, have I been busy? It's been crazy. Break it down. What's new? Well, I spent two weeks fundraising and then two weeks we raised 1.65 billion. Is that good? Is that good? Two weeks, 1.6 billion?

Oh, congratulations. I'm kidding. That's, it's hard to do. It's hard to do. Wow. Definitely the most hectic fundraise I've ever done in my life, but it has been super, super fun. Were you on the, were you on the road or were you holding court just like this? like this? Did you do? Oh, Zoom. Zoom in my office. There you go. That's the modern road show. It's just Zoom link. Yeah. Zoom out. Give us the pitch that you gave the investors.

Yeah. So, you know, we think, look, there's obviously a lot of digital asset treasury companies out there. And we want to be not only the top Solana based digital asset treasury, we want to be the top digital asset treasury in the world. Our aspirations is that this is a publicly traded permanent capital vehicle, and we have aspirations for this thing to become a $50 billion plus publicly traded company over the next you know, half five to 10 years. And we think the key to that is going to be the team. The folks I'm working with at Jump and a Galaxy are incredible. I think we have the absolute all-star dream team, not only have salon of Dats, but of all that's

out there. We bring together that mix of deep trading and technical experience. that deep experience across capital markets function and being a very large counterparty that trades with almost everyone in crypto and the deep VC experience in Salonacore and Salon ecosystem. How do people think about digital asset treasury companies these days? There's one world where you're like, this is a hedge fund and I'm backing a trader who's going to pick good entry and exit prices and it's almost like investing in hedge fund.

there's another which is just because of where my money is locked up for a variety of reasons maybe it's a 401k I don't have access to this particular asset class and and wrapping a particular digital asset in a public ticker gives you access to that which are are those reasonable narratives are there other narratives that people are talking about like what what how do people justify underwriting and investment yeah like there's a bunch of reasons you might want to invest in Ford Industries. And by the ticker is Ford, it's F-O-R-D, like the car company, NASDAG listed.

But I think there's a few. The first is like you have to believe that we as the sponsors of this vehicle can do interesting things to deliver increasing sold per share for our shareholders. And there's a number of things we can do to that effect. I think probably the most interesting is actually M&A. There's probably going to be 30, maybe 40 of these digital asset treasuries. out there, not only salon related, but all the other assets too. Yeah. And I don't think the market's going to sustain 30 or 40 of these things.

And so there's going to be a ripe opportunity for MNA. And I think given the caliber of our team and just the knowledge we have with banking across, especially Galaxy, like we're in a prime position to execute on that. The second, I think really lucrative opportunity is in actually arbitraging capital market structures, meaning we're working on getting loans from banks, you know, hopefully in a 5-ish percent, maybe 6 percent range. And then we can deploy that into Salana D-D-5 at, you know, today probably close to 15 percent. Sure.

And arbitrage that spread. That's obviously a very sexy story. Shareholders love hearing stuff like that. Yep. The particularly cool thing about that is also we can even use that to fund preferred share issuance. So micro strategy or I guess strategy now pioneered this concept and they're issuing these preferred professionals. And the problem strategy has is they are paying a 9% coupon, but they have no cash flow off of their Bitcoin.

We can actually produce cash flow both in sole terms and in dollar terms by tapping into the native Salana staking in defi ecosystems. So it actually makes the vehicle as a whole a lot more financially congruent than something like strategy. So I think those are like the best reasons why. And look, in the long term, we're going to be capital allocators across the salon ecosystem on crypto. And in the long term, it's obviously a bet on our ability to do capital allocation. Was there an alternate timeline where the groups that kind of came together into Ford went

and did their own treasury? Like, did you really have to wrangle people and say, like, look, fall in line or let's do this together? Or what did that, what had putting the team in the investor group look like? Yeah, the jump in the galaxy guy started talking together before multi-coin got involved. And they kind of realized they were like, hey, we really need kind of a third leg of the stool. And so they called me and it was pretty natural fit. I don't have to spend too much time thinking about it. There were some legal questions that we had to work through in terms of compliance for multi-coin. But we worked through those. And we said, all right, guys, let's do this. And they've been absolutely phenomenal partners.

Take me through some of the other stories that are happening in the crypto world broadly that might be bullish or bearish or, you know, something to keep an eye on from your perspective across stable coins. There's that new Stripe project. There's a few other like chains that are launching L1s, L2s. Like what do you think is worth keeping an eye on and what's your interpretation of the news? Yeah, I think there's a handful. So one is Solana ETFs are coming. I think they're going to be here in the next few weeks. That's obviously like a watershed moment for the rest of the industry. Bitcoin and Eid have always been kind of like blessed as special assets and and I think Salon is about to get that same treatment. So that's super exciting.

Yeah. The second one, this one's really in the weeds, but the team at Pump. Fun has been, they've had a live stream product for about a year now maybe. Oh yeah. And this past weekend it really blew up. Yeah. A handful of creators started making tons and tons of money this past weekend and a lot of creators from Rumble and Twitch are now publicly experimenting on the Pump platform. that could really snowballing game momentum and really kind of change the dynamics around creative monetization. That's actually funny that this happened over the weekend. I was at the All In Summit last week, and I gave a presentation there on Internet Capital Markets.

I think that video is going to drop in the next couple days. And one of the examples I actually highlighted in the presentation was the next generation. I talked about entertainment finance. And, you know, Jim Kramer was Entertainment Finance 1.0. Yeah. And in my presentation, I highlighted Roaring Kitty and Dave Portnoy as being emblematic of entertainment finance 2.0. Yeah. And I think we're about to have this just onslaught of streamers who are going to be entertainment finance 3.0.

And it looks like that a lot of that's going to happen on pump and all of pump is built on Solana. Yeah. Yeah. Play that out for me. I mean, that's fascinating since we're in the live stream world. We don't give financial advice to talk about specific stock prices. But I could imagine someone comes out and does something that's much more. We once joked about somebody was like, how do I invest in TVPN?

And we said, well, LVMH, of course, because it's the best proxy. And then somebody immediately, while we were live, created a salon a token. We had to kind of disavowed. But I am interested. Do you think that there's a near-term world where stocks go on chain, they get wrapped? And then that live stream pump ecosystem, you have like a true Jim Kramer type who's like talking about public companies but has some sort of like wrapped exposure to the to the coin that's underlyingly tied to the public company or something like that is that is that something that could

happen yeah so it's already a fairly common behavior you'll see a lot of the crypto traders they'll just pull up their finance screen or whatever they're trading on they'll just live stream and you know trade and talk with their friends and stuff there's never been a great way to follow along yeah like what buy and a sell button like built into the stream kind of the thing I do think that now exists with PUMP for the native token of that stream. So that's already a thing. I think you're going to see more of that kind of streaming products continue to evolve in the pretty near future.

As it pertains to tokenized equities, yes, the team of Galaxy actually announced the deal with Super State to tokenize Galaxy's equity on Solana. It went live a week or two ago. And this is obviously something relevant for forward industries for us with our four ticker and we're working on that. I hope to talk about it very soon. And once it's up, we have this tokenized equity, then you'll be able to kind of do that same configuration that you just described. So what I'm not sure this is correct. So Ford is already trading. Is that is that is that correct? That's correct. And but but what is the is it is it what like why?

Why is it trading it? You guys, it's saying, is this correct? It's saying the current market cap is somewhere, it's 67 million. Is that, is that correct? Yeah, so we closed on the pipe transaction last week, but it has $165 billion. Okay. Yeah. The SEC has, so the company has issued these shares to all of the investors who came into the pipe,

including multi-coin, Jump Galaxy, and many others. And the SEC has a process by which you have to register new shares that are created, and that process takes roughly 30 days. So the Yahoo finances of the world and the other kind of major stock screeners only show registered shares. Got it. Got it. Interesting. Awesome. What a fascinating world.

Well, you're our resident Salana expert. Thanks so much for hopping on. Anytime. Congratulations on putting this together. It's got to be up there in. maybe I don't know you know top top 1,000 road shows ever the one however much you raised in a couple billion two weeks not bad definitely top maybe probably top five pure zoom road shows it's pretty great anyways great stuff Kyle good to catch up pretty good at hey guys last thing we are hiring at forward industries you know we're

obviously building out this permanent capital salon of strategy if you're watching the show and you're looking for a cool new role and opportunity when we work with us please get in touch we're looking to hire awesome people Fantastic. Well, good luck. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers, Kyle. Thanks so much for wrapping on. Thanks, guys. We'll talk to you soon. The team they put together is pretty, pretty wild. I haven't had a chance to dig into it. We'll have to.

Some heavy, heavy hitters. In other news, Kimball Musk, he came on the show a few weeks ago. He posted that he's deeply honored to have been trusted with Vatican as a stage to bring grace to the world with his dear friend. No way. Pharrell Williams and Drea Bocchelli and Jennifer Hudson. We made a miracle. We probably saw some of these photos. It's a drone show that happened over the Vatican.

He said, because it's grace for the world. And some of the images and videos are, I mean, they look like AI. They look like CGI. But they are actually... I didn't realize he was behind this. Yes. No, this is his project. What I was saying, imagine being the tribe and the Amazon.

Kimball Musk starts, flies over. That is a euphoric. Yeah, pretty wild. And what, what a fantastic, like, launch strategy to go to the Vatican, like, the biggest possible. Like, it's such a striking. Everyone has seen this building because when the Pope is elected and the Pope comes out and Pope's chosen gives a speech. And whenever there is news in the world of the Catholic,

Catholic Church, the TV cameras descend upon the Vatican, of course, and to put your product right there is remarkable. And so I'm sure the full video is out there. We'll have to watch the full thing and see. And I'd love to have Kimball and the team on later. I think that there's probably more news. The company's growing. We should-

We should cap off on this post from barely AI, which is- Stay safe out there, folks. Yeah. But this is Trunk, Trunk fan. Yes. Company. This is an AI startup called Inception Point AI is flooding podcast apps.

Yes. They've launched 5,000 podcasts, make 3,000 episodes a week. They spend $1 to create an episode and monetized by getting programmatic ads, break even on most episodes, if only 20 people listen. Types of podcasts go from lowest effort,

like weather reports, simple biographies, to higher effort. It created 50 AI personalities, including food expert Claire Delish, Gardner and Nature expert Nigel Tisseldown. Thistledown. Dissle down and Ollie Bennett, who covers offbeat sports. The company has built 184 custom AI agents. Let's give it up for AI agents using various LLM to create the podcast and occasionally spot checks the output.

The CEO, a former exec at podcast studio Wondery, says she wants to make that. thousands more AI personalities, including an AI Oprah. Wouldn't you like to create an AI Oprah? Interesting. It closes by saying, so basically an article content farm for podcasts. Well, Trung, it's not an article content farm. It's a radically new AI podcast strategy. It's Sloth.

Put it in GPD's speed. This is actually extremely annoying. I've searched for biographies on the Apple Podcast app every once in a while to try and get up to speed on things. And the amount of just AI generated content is overwhelming. And then I'm like, well, I could just go to Chachybee for that. If I wanted that, that's what I would get. I want something.

There was a beautiful time where when you wanted to do some research on somewhere, you could go and talk and have, and know that somebody like painstakingly spent hours trying to handcraft the story. I think that the long, the long term outcome here is like institutions get strong. And so now I've noticed that if I'm searching for the history of an entrepreneur, I just won't search for the name. I search Founders Podcast and then the name because I just know that like if it's not that it's not it's not worth listening to. Yeah, I wonder where the article content farms like how they've done obviously they're getting like you know if I'm sure some some have done quite well but are actually getting hurt by language models now that are just collecting the information and not actually hitting the site as a human.

but yeah I think the funny thing anyone can stand one of these up so they don't have a they don't have like any sort of like real technical advantage and so on a long enough time horizon like consumers might

that they might today go I want to go and get I'm going to go to Spotify to get the weather report from this inception point AI company or there's a world in the future where they're just they tell Gemini

make me a podcast every morning about the weather today, tomorrow, and the next day, and just like have it ready for me in the morning. And that just kind of runs. That's kind of a notebook L.M. Yeah. No, that's what I'm saying. It's like every consumer AI app will be able to make a podcast. What is crazy is that the CEO gave an interview to the Hollywood Reporter, which is basically just like a massive target. Compete with me. Like how many startups do you think launch? after this article went out. Like, oh, it's easy to just drop.

Wait, you're turning one dollar. You're profitable after 20 listens. Great. Okay, I'll do the same thing. It's like, great. Classic. This is going to be the new hustle. This is like, this is something where like anyone with an open source LOP

are going to be like, this is the new, this is the new wall. For sure, this is new drop shipping, new. Which will, of course, get competed away. Destroy the opportunity. It will. But good luck in the short term. And maybe this grows into something better. Yeah, the funny thing is if out of this they get one true hit.

Like if they were to make an AI personality that goes on an Oprah-like run, it would pay for all the slot. Yeah, I would imagine that it's got to be crazy fine-tuned, like what we're seeing with Friend, like what we're seeing with that other LLM where you're like, oh, this is an AI, but it's not just the default. So you can't get this level of reporting or this level of content out of Notebook LM because it's so...

So notebook L.M has a very notebook LM flavor to it, which is good. It's default. It's information. Tyler, you have a take? What you got? You're absolutely right, John. Thank you, Tyler. The chat was asking for more Tyler cutaways and we're working on it.

Also, I love when Lucas Singer came on the show. The Chow was just, Siri Z, series, he did the meme. Thank you, chat. You guys have been fantastic today. Great to see you all. great to see uh rgaov and bobby and dac and john exley of course elhan so many good folks so many names we know and love in the chat and on that note have a wonderful afternoon yeah we will see tomorrow we'll see you for being with us today go subscribe uh to our newsletter brandon tbpfn dot substack.com very hard on it

or you can just go to tbpn.com you can subscribe there wherever you want we'll be in your inbox and leave us five stars on Spotify, Apple Podcasts goes a long way. Remember, we still have our arrangement where if you leave a review on Apple and you put an advertisement for your company in the review, we will read it out on stream and advertise your business. So thank you to everyone for tuning in, and we'll see tomorrow. See you all. Goodbye.

Cheers.