TBPN - Thursday's Diet TBPN

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

Our favorite moments from today's show, in under 30 minutes. TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.comFigma - https://figma.comVanta - https://vanta.comLinear - https://linear.appEight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpnWander - https://wander.com/tbpnPublic - https://public.comAdQuick - https://adquick.comBezel - https://getbezel.com Numeral - https://www.numeralhq.comPolymarket - https://polymarket.comAttio - https://attio.com/tbpnFin - https://fin.ai/tbpnGraphite - https://graphite.devRestream - https://restream.ioProfound - https://tryprofound.comJulius AI - https://julius.aiturbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.comfal - https://fal.aiPrivy - https://privy.ioCognition - https://cognition.aiGemini - https://gemini.google.comFollow TBPN: https://TBPN.comhttps://x.com/tbpnhttps://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

There is a bunch of breaking news. The big news out of OpenAI. Of course, the OpenAI show continues. Sarah Fryer had some comments about ChatGPT's growth potentially slowing, and it's unclear. It's not in decline. It's maybe deceleration. We'll have to dig into that.

It had me thinking about debt, and I was thinking about just the fact that the debt has come to tech for the first time, really. And this was sort of my take. I'm a little bit, this is an area that I know the least about. And so I was doing some research learning a different, learning about a different industry since it's just so abstract. Like we keep going back and forth on the debt is coming to tech narrative as like, it's very scary.

We live through the global financial crisis. And there's a lot of jitters when debt is around. It's like, oh, you could get wiped out. You could blow up. The backstop comes in. It just feels like all of a sudden we're talking. about things with a much more serious consequence, then like, oh, yeah, a startup raised some money

and it didn't pan out and it was a zero and it wound up being a write-down. Even when Theranos blew up, it was only equity holders that were lost. It wasn't this entire industry. And it didn't turn into this systemic issue, right? Yeah. But now it feels like with the $1.4 trillion

of, you know, backlog that OpenAI has kind of opened up across a whole bunch of different deals there is this worry that, you know, maybe the level of indebtedness could be risky, the level of risk in the system, the level of investment in the system, could be something that's bigger than just, oh, if you're in this one name, you're taking a big risk. Now it's maybe like, hey, we're all taking a risk. And if we're talking about backstops, at least, data is the new oil. And back then in 2006, his point was he was working as a data scientist at Tesco, which is this British grocery store. I don't know if you know this story. But he was working at this British grocery store chain.

And his point was, we have all this data on a customer is in the rewards program. We see that they buy a Thanksgiving turkey before Thanksgiving. We see that they buy this type of paper towels or this type of milk or whatever. We have all this data, but we don't really do anything with it. The data is not valuable. We need to refine it, much like oil, into gasoline. And once we refine it into gasoline, then we can do things like targeted advertising. advertising. So it was basically just a generic call to action for taking data science

seriously. People have been saying data is the new oil for I guess two decades now. And it never really sat that well with me because unlike oil data is not perfectly fungible. So one, one tranche of data is not equivalent to another. Like Reddit is clearly very valuable since it kind of provided the backbone for GPT3. All the analytics data that flows out of some mobile game is basically used. A lot of data is worthless. A lot of data is worthless. All oil is at least some about. Essentially, I mean, I guess there are different levels of crude, right? They're different grades. And I was actually trying to play out the metaphor more. And I was wondering, like, can we get to a place where, you know, so we can ring intelligence

out of raw data, like the oil. And the result can be low octane gasoline, kind of like midwit, you know, level like slop and AI slop. Or it can be jet fuel, like a deep research. report that's actually pretty great or some code that's really reliable and really useful. But it all depends on the processing methodology. But the more interesting data is the new oil take that I don't think was considered in 2006, is that maybe the tech industry is going to look like the oil and gas industry soon? Like I was looking up how much debt is in the oil and gas industry? It's over a trillion dollars of debt.

It was two trillion, like, you know, a decade ago, and then it went down and then went up. And it's all just a function of like how much oil and gas is going on. How many, where are the new projects? How big are the projects? How much that goes in? The difference is that if you identify oil in the ground and you figure out how much it's going to cost you to extract it and how long you think you'll be able, like basically estimating like how much, how much oil is actually available in this site.

Yeah. Then you can lend against that pretty predictably because you know that the price of oil is going to fluctuate, but in general, as long as it's in some range, it will be like a profitable operation to pull it out of the ground. And I think it's a little bit easier to lend against that than GPUs today. The big debate is around depreciation schedules. And we have a sense that a data center that has power and basically a box with a lot of power will be valuable in the future. But if a lot of the cost of a new data center is GPUs, it's harder to gauge on what the value of those GPUs will be in four years than it is, okay, it will this oil, like production

sites still be producing oil in five years? I think that's a bit easier to answer and easier to lend against. The fact that you're walking through that math is very different than what the venture capitalists in 2000 were doing. Like Google was like the most pure play, just beautiful software business. So Google from 2001 to 2004, grew from 86 million in revenue to 3.2 billion in revenue. And net income over that period went from 10 million to 400 million, and that includes stock-based comp. So they were still making 400 million in profit with the stock-based comp.

Googlers made a lot of money. They gave away a lot of stock. And so it was not, it didn't look like an oil business. There was not this big Cappex build-out. There was not this big, even this crazy R&D phase. There wasn't that much capital. that went into Google before it became this monster cash flow machine. It was sort of an infinite money glitch.

It was this beautiful algorithm that was just discovered. And it was so elegant. And it just produced this monopoly insane, like growth rate for so long. But for a long time, like tech just meant take a bet on a company. And it's either a zero or a trillion dollars or something like that. And so it's a lot different. And I wanted to dig into like the actual structure of one of these deals. You remember the Hyperion release?

Zuck went on threads. and announced that he was going to be building a five gigawatt data center. It's going to be as big as Manhattan. It's like somewhat of a Manhattan project. Somewhat of a Manhattan project. Exactly. The crazy, crazy thing about that deal. So he spins up the, he puts out the announcement post on threads, says,

hey, we're going to build this five gigawatt data center campus. It's going to be online in a few years. It's going to be as big as Manhattan. And he shares some of like where it's going to be, how many raps, or there are going to be square footage, stuff like that. But he's basically just announcing that like, hey, the project's financed, we're ready to go on this. Like, you would expect that when that it's a $27 billion deal.

You would expect that, okay, meta went down. They spent $27 billion. It's worth it. They're gonna, no, they got paid $3 billion. They got paid $3 billion. And the reason is because Blue Al financed it with external debt and they are basically paying meta upfront for the right to have them,

as a tenant, as a leaser for a very long time. And so you have this massive data center project that's going to be paid for, even if it's not producing any valuable tokens, Zuck's still going to, he's not just going to default and be like, yeah, take the company. No way. He's going to pay. And so in exchange from that, they got $3 billion up front. This feels deeply important to the current AI buildout, boom, the tech story. It feels like an entirely new piece of the puzzle to understand where this technology is going. And I don't feel equipped to understand it at all. all. Private asset star Blue Owl has been flying high. Is it too close to the sun? So the article says, suddenly Blue Owl Capital is everywhere this past Tuesday, the upstart alternative investment firm

with an aptitude for private credit announced a financing deal for Meta Platform's $27 billion AI Data Center in Louisiana. That is Hyperion that I was mentioning earlier. The week before at the PACC-C-I-S alternative asset summit in Los Angeles, Blue Owls co-CEOs co-CEO, Mark Lipschitz, called J.B. Morgan Chase's CEO, Jamie Diamond, Cockroach Warning, about risk and private credit, an odd kind of fearmongering. So basically, private credit has been growing a ton. We've talked about this a few times. Aries is massive. Now Blue Owl is really big. And there's basically been this little bit of a fight emerging between where the debt is coming from. Do you do private credit or do you go with the traditional bank route? And so Jamie Diamond, at least I'm pretty sure he's going head to head against Blue Al in a bunch of these. deals. Jamie Diamond was cautioning investors about potential risks in the credit market by invoking

a proverb. When you see one cockroach, there are probably more. And so he was referring to recent loan defaults, such as the bankruptcy of auto parts maker first brands and subprime lender tricolor holdings as warning signs of broader credit issues. So Diamond noted that JPMorgan took losses on some bad loans and implied that trouble in one corner of the credit market could mean undiscovered problems elsewhere. casting doubt on the booming private credit sector. And so Mark Lipschitz fires back and he says, I guess he's saying that there might be a lot more cockroaches at J.P. Morgan. During a recent private call, Open AIs investors asked about external signs that Chachapit's growth is slowing.

CFO, Sarah P. This is the external signs where I think like app store data. There were some data out of Europe. Oh yes, yes, yes. That's right. And it was hard to read into the European data because Europe, Europeans. They don't work ever. No, I mean, it was coming off of summer, right? And, you know, Chad GPDD is popular a student. But European summer hasn't ended yet. There's been, there's been early warning signs. Yeah, walking through some others. So I can walk through Alex's coverage. Sarah Fryer held a private quarterly earnings call with the company's biggest investors. Yeah. As usual, the numbers she shared were mostly up into the right. But behind the strong top line figures, a quieter question hung over the call. Was chat GPT's momentum?

him starting to slow. During the Q&A portion of the call sources say, Friar was asked to reconcile Chat ChbT's meteoric growth and weekly users from 250 in September, 2024, to over 800 million now, with external signs that the app's growth has slowed in recent months. Close followers of opening eyes business

have been whispering about these signals from research firms since late summer, but this was an opportunity for company backers to hear directly from leadership on the matter. After telling the investors to take third-party estimates with a grain of salt, Friar acknowledged a chink in chat GBT's armor. She said time spent had declined slightly in response to, quote, content restrictions. The company rolled out in early August. She then referred to the loosening of those restrictions that CEO, Sam Altman has said will be implemented for adults in December. So, and Sarah says, an opening, I expects the decline in time spent to reverse. And so I don't think them announcing that they're getting into erotica is a. sign of strength felt like something that they would do in order to stimulate growth while they

get a bunch of other monetization online, right? So like commerce, ads, et cetera. The reason I reacted strongly to it was that there had been messaging, you know, around the same time of, I don't want to be in a world where we have to decide between curing cancer and free education for the world. Yes. And so then at that same time, deciding we're going to do erotica. It was very weird time. It was hard to It was very weird. It was very weird timing that those two statements like came out one after another. Open AI has decelerated revenue before because they, I think they tripled and then they went to a doubling or they went or they were quadrupling and then they went to a to a tripling.

And so they actually decelerated in 2024 and then they re-accelerated in 2025. And so I was kind of saying like, well, you know, this is a good chance that you could see deceleration in the future. It's happened before. To be accelerating forever is basically impossible. But it would be interesting to track exactly how chat GPT's growth is slowing. There certainly feels like there's just a level of saturation. A month-over-month change in total visits to leading Gen.

ChatGBTGPT is at the bottom of a list that includes Gemini, DeepSeek, Perplexity, GROC, Klaude, co-pilot, and meta-a-I. The key difference here is that, like, ChatGBTGPT is, is so much bigger than these other platforms, they could still be adding more users on a per user basis than these other tools, even if their growth is slower.

Like meta is not accelerating top line users. They have like 3 billion users. No one's expecting them to accelerate top line users. Maybe like randomly one quarter they accelerate, but not continually. And so, I don't know. It just feels like an odd thing. It's going to be very funny when LLM's plateau, around 120 IQ.

And what we've created is just a digital guy, not a god. This doesn't make any sense. If we have, like, infinite digital guys, that's, like, literally a guy is just like a worker. Yeah. If we have infinite workers, that's, like, insanely bullish. He didn't say it's going to, it's going to collapse the economy when we just get a digital guy. He said it's going to be funny. And I agree.

If you get a digital guy, that's pretty powerful, because guys can do a lot of stuff. You need a guy for everything. Yeah, that's the age. The middle class has apps. Yes. The wealthy have guys. Tyler, did you get a chance to read Fiji Simo's latest blog post, moving beyond one-size-fits-all? Yeah, nothing, I would say, super substantive in it.

I think with 5.1, they were going. Like, we made our digital guy faster, better. I mean, it is crazy following this company so closely because in here there's a line that says, with more than 800 million people using chat chb t, were well past the point of one size fits all. And 800 million sounds amazing, except I feel like I heard the 800 million number like two months ago.

And I feel like they have been accelerating so fast. You would expect them to be at 950, 900. Exactly. And so the fact that they're repeating the 800 number is like, what's going on? Sorry we can't add a third of the United States every month. ChatGBTGPT is officially in its Fiji-Simo phase. If you're wondering why the upgrade doesn't come with

benchmarks have fun. Rune says you're, you are confidently wrong about the internal dynamics of this. It could be better summarized as an infra cleanup. And Nier says the source for my top tweet is Fiji's blog post from today when, which discusses the release and its goals. I don't really know what else to say. Is there hunger for benchmarks anymore? I, I might actually take the other side of this here. I like that they're getting away from benchmarks. I don't, I wish they didn't do it five point want. Just make it better and don't do a release. And certainly don't tell people because what if people imagine. Easy for you to say because you're not in love with a specific version, John. I'm in love with five. I'm in love with five, Rune. Bring back five. I don't like five. I don't like

5.1. When JPD 4, like, not four or anything, when that was the best model, they would do updates. They wouldn't like say, oh, this is a new model. Yeah. And people could definitely tell. Oh, sure, sure. Okay, they release the model. It's worse. So you think putting a version number actually helps like fight back against that? I think it's more, um, it's just like easier for people to tell it that it was actually a change. When they're noticing something that they've been depending on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sources say that sources say, Okay. Sources says that sources say CEO Mark Zuckerberg joined an internal employee Q&A and shared a warning about the AI bubble. First, he shared a breakdown of how different players from startup's big tech names like meta should think about timing their bets. He described three camps in the industry optimists who see super

intelligence emerging within two to three years. Moderates who expect breakthroughs by the end of the decade. And pessimists who think it'll take well into the 2030s. Each outlook, he said, dictates how aggressively a company invests. Then he expounded on a version of the answer he gave me recently in our last interview. He noted that while unprofitable startups like Open AI and anthropic risk bankruptcy, if they misjudge the timing of their investment, meta has the advantage of strong cash flow. He also made the point that while Big Tech has historically been relatively debt debt-free compared to large companies and other sectors, the AI infrastructure race is leading meta and its peers to start using leverage in a more normal way relative to their size.

Like he told me in September, Zuckerberg acknowledged to employees that meta's market cap could suffer if his timing is wrong in the bubble burst, but the message was clear, we'll have the balance sheet to survive and emerge stronger than most on the other side. Super Dario was quoting that and said the obvious end game in the next two to three years is that Microsoft acquires OpenAI, Google acquires Anthropic, and Tesla acquires XAI, only the large caps survive. That's a nuclear hot take. In contrast, Open AI employees stayed for two plus years, sold $6.6 billion of equity last month. Many hit the $20 million cap. Morale and vibes are high, but so is the turnover rate. New Open AI hires are often shocked by how many Slack accounts

get deactivated each day. There are dozens or perhaps a couple hundred X, OpenAI, Google, DeepMind researchers founding companies in the current climate. And this was talking about... The simple answer, the liquidity of anthropic options is the worst among those frontier labs. This is talking about how a lot of people have been leaving various labs, less people have been leaving anthropic. And so Liang Chen is saying the simple answer. What would be interesting is if companies started offering liquidity in the form of annuities.

But I don't know. There's some way to deal with this. Like, you know, if you don't get employee liquidity, like they'll leave for something else. They'll just go somewhere else that pays them a higher salary. If you give them too much liquidity, they'll leave and start new companies. Very, very tricky to manage the team. But that is the nature of these companies. One of my strongest beliefs is that it's going to take 20 plus years to get AI penetrated into the real

economy. I filled out a piece of paper at the doctor's office last week. I filled out a piece of paper at the doctor's office last week too. I finally realized why DocuSign has so many employees. Because you need to go to every doctor's office in person, apparently for decades to get them to use online form filling technology. Like general SaaS really does not, has not permeated as much of the economy as people think. There's a company that makes paper receipts that's worth $20 billion. $20 billion. There are a fax machine. The fax machine industry is still over a billion dollars. It's still a billion dollar industry.

In my opinion, the entire AI field switched from explore to exploit two years early. Everyone convinced themselves, no, this isn't the case. Look at our exploration. And it's like watching someone go on a 50-foot walk and find a cool tree when the entire continent is still covered in fog of war. Now that the terrain seems known, it should be harder to convince yourself. I suppose this makes sense, given a lot of people hint at being good as gone. as gone as soon as they have enough money,

but no, not me, I've been gone for ages already. Weren't we talking about this yesterday, this idea of like, where will the next innovation come from, where will the next breakthrough come from, will it come from any of the, any of the, like will it come from X-A-I? Will it come from deep mind? Yeah, I mean, it's really tough right now.

You can stay in a university system and be a student and be taking on debt or you can go work at a lab and make, have a good shot, at least if you did this a few years ago, have a good shot of making $20 million in a few years. And it's hard to give up that kind of opportunity. This Wall Street Journal article is given more context on the AI boom. It says the AI boom is looking more and more fragile. AI stocks have swung downward as doubt rises about sustainability and payoff. Perfect isn't good enough. And any sign of weakness is a

disaster. This is what's happening. It's like you double revenue and your stock trades down. It's very, very odd, but everything's been priced perfection. Core weave, who have again, is the only neocloud in the platinum tier semi-analysis is down 45%. Recent history suggests that the gloom won't last, but the shake-up serves as a strong reminder that the early years of AI pose a challenge for investors. Companies at the heart of AI are now talking about years, plural, of all major investments still ahead. There is, of course, real reasons to worry about the sustainability of the boom.

Chief among them is that there is far more AI computing infrastructure spending than there is AI revenue, a gulf widening by the day. Open AI says it's planning to spend $1.4 trillion in the next eight years, but is only pulling in around $20 billion of annual revenue today. Has the mood become that CEO Sam Altman felt the need last week to defend the company on X saying the spending was understandably causing concern? Wow, he says he understands your concerns, If you're down today, you're a certified beta bubble boy. You literally bid up sand disk, WTF. Alternatively, you can call yourself a bad beta, BITCH. The White House last night tweeted, we are so back in all caps. What did that mean? What did they mean by that? In what way were we back? In other news,

Anthropic disrupted a highly sophisticated AI-led espionage campaign, the attack targeted large tech companies, financial institutions, chemical manufacturing companies, and government agencies. We assess with high confidence that the threat actor was a Chinese state-sponsored group. I guess they were using Claude, I think, is... Yes. I think they were using Claude code, actually. Hmm. Weird.

So they were vibe coding espionage. Yeah, it was pretty funny. I read through some of the blog post, and it was like some of the interactions of, like, the hackers. And it was like, this is what they were saying to the model. they're like, okay, good job, Claude, but I think this part is wrong. You can see like the actual transcript? Very bullish transropic. Michael Burry appears to be shutting down Cyan asset management. He said, dear investors, with a heavy heart, I will liquidate the funds and return capital, but for a small audit slash tax holdback by years end. My estimation of value in securities

is not now and has not been for some time in sync with the markets, with heartfelt thanks, but also with apologies. I wish you well in your future investments. I do suggest investors contact my associate PM. Did he really quit right before the market started correcting? Is this one of those like 90% of gamblers quit right before they finally call the top correctly? Yeah, it does seem odd. His memory will live on through meme images from the big short.

is being rebooted under the name Divine with funding from Twitter's former CEO, Jack Dorsey. Oh. The app plans to feature more than 10,000 previously archived vines and does not allow AI-generated content. That's remarkable. There have been so many Vine revival attempts. Elon was talking about bringing it back at one point. I believe the founder of Vine was talking about bringing it back and did a number of different projects. there was a project called V2.

We will see you tomorrow. Can't wait. At 10.m. Pacific? Sure. Goodbye.