TBPN - X Under Attack, Dom Day, Yardsale Thesis, Manus, Bread and Taxes, DeepSeek

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

TBPN.com is made possible by:Ramp - https://ramp.comEight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpnWander - https://wander.com/tbpnPublic - https://public.comAdQuick - https://adquick.comBezel - https://getbezel.comPolymarket - https://polymarket.comFollow TBPN: https://TBPN.comhttps://x.com/tbpnhttps://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235https://youtube.com/@technologybrotherspod?si=lpk53xTE9WBEcIjV(00:00) - We're under attack! (01:22) - The Yardsale (13:10) - Manus (28:22) - Bread and Taxes (47:17) - Palmer in the WSJ (01:00:00) - DeepSeek Update (01:15:00) - Smart Car Technology (01:27:21) - The Timeline

You're watching TVPN. Today is Monday, March 10th, 2025. We are live from the Temple of Technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. This show starts now. We got a great show for you today. We are under attack folks. Hackers have been attacking X. They've seen what we've been doing with this show. They know it's too powerful. They're coming for you. They're coming for us. Be afraid. Be afraid. What is going on? Elon says it's a cyber attack by a nation. state. He does. We have, we do have some. We have a post. We already printed it. It went up and we printed it immediately. Elon says there was, there was slash still is a massive cyber attack against X. We get attacked every day, but this was done with a lot of resources. Either a large coordinated

group or a country is involved. He's tracing it. And then someone in the comment says, they want to silence you and this platform. And he says, yes. So we know the truth. This platform. We are part of this platform. They're trying to silence us. But we can't stopped. We're still streaming. We're still live. We're still reading posts out loud. But first, we got to talk about this weekend. I went skiing in Lake Tahoe. It's fantastic. And we wanted to break down what's going on. If you haven't followed, the market's in turmoil. It's in free fall. And we have a thesis for what's, for what's going on. And we have a bunch of evidence to back this up. We do. We do. What are we calling it, folks? The yard sale. The yard sale. It's a yard sale.

So for those that don't know, yard sale is when you're skiing and you have a bad enough accident that all of your gear basically just gets rejected off of your body. Both poles and both skis and and oftentimes the helmet, goggles and gloves. Yeah, exactly. And so they get spread out over the mountain and you have to go and collect yourself. And it looks like a yard sale because everything's laid out for your pick them. Today is don't check your public account. Yep. Just don't even look at it.

Don't even look at it. Just watch. Stay with us. But it's an absolute. Maybe it's a good day to teach people about dollar cost averaging. Yeah. Right. And not trying to time the markets.

Yeah. Never worked. So that's what we'll be talking about. Yeah. I actually have to, when, when Invidia, after deep seek announcement and Vidae went down tremendously, I was down 15%. I just, you know, instantly bought it. Yep.

I'm guessing. You probably done around trip. Yeah, for sure. But for a minute there for about a month, I look like a genius. I look genius. I look genius. Okay. So we, but anyway, so this is John's working theory.

He's skiing this weekend. and he sort of figured this out. But the yard sale thesis. Yeah, the yard sale thesis. What is the genesis of it? Okay. Talk to the audience about that. So the yard sale thesis is essentially, as everyone knows, during ski season, all the greatest

capital allocators in the world head to the slopes. Yeah. They're sitting on ski lifts. And what's unique about ski lifts? It's almost, it's very much like a sauna in that there aren't, there's no one that's eavesdropping on you. There's not a lot of technology around. People can speak freely.

And you also wind up with somewhat random people, but everyone's kind of. in the same milieu because they're all paying $2,000 a day to ski at some icon pass or Epic pass location. And so, I don't know about 2000. Are you talking about room and board and everything? I mean, I'm pretty sure the lift tickets are like over 600 now a day for like a one day thing. So yeah. So so so so there's this filter that basically says you know, there's this economic floor that basically you have to be a capital allocator get on the slopes these days. Yeah. The price is where they are. But that creates a lot of of of. random chance interactions between folks who have different insights into different pieces of the market.

And they're moving size. They're moving size for sure. And they're speaking freely because they're just like, I'm up here, I'm cold, I'm trying to just bond with someone on this ski lift. And I'm not worried I'm being eaves dropped on because I'm not in an office. I'm not at a crowded coffee shop. Yep. I'm on a ski chair lift. And so, so the rumors start flying. The rumor mill happens on the ski lift. And if you'll see at the end of the. It's, it's a ski lift. And if you'll see at the of the ski lift, there's always a sign that says tips up. It says like, put the stock tips away, guys, because you don't want the stock tips going out once you're, once you're off the ski lift. You want to keep on the, you don't want to be getting a notification that says the market is down.

Exactly. Tips up. Tips up. And so you see. And the other thing, the other factor is even on gondolas, yeah, is a big issue where let's say you're skiing with a buddy. Yeah. You get on a gondola, maybe it's a six-person gondola. Yeah. Everybody's got their goggles on their helmets, a couple you know, two guys think they're just having regular conversation. They don't know that somebody that has 10 billion of AUM is two seats over, picking that up and trading. This happened to me because I would get on. I was in full gear.

You couldn't tell who I was. And I would overhear people saying, oh, there's like TBPN. It's like the biggest thing. Like it's the best thing ever. Like it's taking over the world. I wish they did seven days of week. Yeah. A lot of people were saying like I used to be a podcaster.

I'm actually shutting down because of what's going on with TPN. So, but they probably wouldn't have said that if they knew that I was sitting right there. Yeah, yeah. So those types of conversations. That's because they don't know your 6-8. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's not that many 6-8 people skiing if they knew you were 6-8, but you're sitting down all the time on the show, so it's hard to tell.

Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot of stock tips flying around. And, you know, sometimes someone has a little tip, hey, maybe Silicon Valley Bank isn't so hot. You hear it on the ski chair, you go, you take a short position. One thing leads to another, and the whole company collapses. But you think we're crazy. You think this is some weird thing that, oh, really there should just be like the average amount of financial collapses and frauds are

discovered during ski season, right? It's only a couple months. But we have a list here for you of financial frauds that happen during ski season. And when you hear this list, you're going to start believing in the yard sale theory of finance. You're going to believe us. Because look, Black Monday, the global stock market crashed. Right when the mountains around the world is starting to open. October 19, 1987, the Dow Jones plunges 22.6 percent of single day. Yep. Like,

I mean, yeah, it was probably early, early snow. But it was, it was, it was, you know, oftentimes. Yeah. The mountain's not open to everyone. Yeah. You got to have a special relationship, you know, be. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, and, and so the only people that would even be skiing then are the most

important are the most allocators. The heaviest centers. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the bearings bank collapse. February 16th. I mean, smack in the middle. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There's no other way to explain this. Yeah. And this was a 20, 233 year old UK based merchant bank. They failed after our rogue traders unauthorized losses. Those losses, 830 million bankrupted at the firm. Those could have been hidden for months more.

But of course, rumor mill comes out on the ski lift and boom, gone. Dead. So we got to figure out more about this because it's a 233-year-old company and one dude goes rogue. Oh, there's a movie about it. Maybe because he wasn't invited on a ski trip. He was in Singapore. They don't ski there. Yeah.

Yeah. That's probably what happened. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, the rest of the firm back in the UK was going to Switzerland. And he got a, was it, did they even have email in 19? I'm kidding. So he gets an email.

He says, it's an auto. I know, I think they might, they might have faxes, but not many emails. 95? That's like right on the cusp of email. Yeah. Well, speaking of email.com crash, March 10th, 2000. That's actually 25 years ago today. It became by the 2000s, it was ubiquitous.

Yeah. Mid 90s, they were definitely used. So he probably sent an email to a client, or not a client, his co-worker, auto response. Yep. Hey, I'm in Switzerland this weekend skiing with the firm. And he realized that. He just goes wrong.

He's like, I got to make more money because I got to be able to get on these ski trips. Yeah, exactly. That's for sure what's happened. So bankrupt is 233-year-old company. Can you believe it's the 25-year anniversary of the dot-com crash? March 10th, 2000. Wow.

there was a 78% index drop by 2002 just total total sell-off and everyone's like oh it's so telling like there's a minor drop today it's you know forecast uh but it just feel like that feels crazy today anyway um nron scandal December 2nd 2001 the argentine economic crisis in December of 2001 yep the parmalot bankruptcy the enron of europe December 20th 2004, 2003, early ski season. It was a dairy giant. Pre-Christmas. Dairy giant. Bear Stearns collapsed during ski season.

Bernie Madoff was discovered during ski season. You know that that has to be a ski season tip. Yeah. That has chairlift tip all over it. Somebody said, hey, I tried to, you know, pull my funds out. Yeah. He said, you know, give me a few years. Theranos was discovered March 14.

Oh my gosh. You know John Kerry Rue was probably on the slopes picking something up from some investor who passed and saw that. saw the data room. The COVID-19 market crash. I mean, really, clearly, really the fault of ski season. Evergrand, FTX, SVB, and Credit Suisse all happened during ski season. That last one makes total sense.

Yeah. Because I'm sure that deal, this was a rescue, but I'm sure that deal was getting done in Switzerland on the slope. So it's one of those things. Definitely. The catalyst for these crashes are happening on the slopes, and then the fix is also happening on the slopes. Yeah.

For sure. You know, interesting scenario. For sure. Anyways. Did you get any, did you get any, any tips this weekend? Not too many tips. Just the usual like rare fish, rare birds, you know. Perpetual alpha.

Putting, buying mice in a five to one female to male ratio and releasing them in your competitors. Yeah. Office. A lot of people on your trip were probably doing that. years ago. Exactly. Exactly.

It's kind of a price in at this point. Most competitors have mice defenses at this point. It's priced in. Yeah. I heard there's a rumor that there's a firm building

a Godzilla-sized humanoid robot and sort of shaking up the market. Kind of part of why. Going Pacific Rim mode. Yeah, I mean, it's part of why Tesla's down. Tesla this year,

at least Tesla is down over 36% in the last month. And some people are saying it's because somebody came out and they're making a humanoid, a humanoid that's a hundred times bigger than an optimist. Yeah. And so anyways, market obviously pricing that in. Yeah.

I mean, the real risk is the dripped out humanoid, right? As soon as someone puts it in Marcia. Balenciaga, then it's truly over. Yeah. Speaking of it's over, I have a funny post here from David Holes, founder of Mid Journey. He's quote tweeting Intel that just tweeted AI. And then he quote tweets and says, it's over. It's so over.

It really is, they didn't quite top ticked yet. But they marked like the last sort of potentially the dying breath of the bull market. It's pretty powerful. Like if you're running that brand like and you're self-aware and you understand that by, by you're going to like the read on you posting that is going to be top yep maybe you should move intel's entire treasury into a short position and then tweet AI yeah that's a really powerful move yeah you need to make a quick buck you're not really making much maybe that's many conductors anymore intel saying chipsack going away we need a different source of capital for this yeah become a hedge fund

yeah just know that that by by being extremely cringe on the timeline you can move the market Intel. Yeah. They did it. They did it. They did it. Anyway, should we move on to some of these, some of these more serious stories? It is, it is interesting. I'm sure somebody out there has a ridiculous conspiracy theory that requires a tinfoil hat that basically says that if you were a hedge fund that was needing to unwind a lot of positions and you knew that like a lot of trading activity was catalyzed by like general, you know, the retail traders are on X being like, what is, you know, happening like the markets down and you needed to unwind like one if you needed like an to buy you know uh yeah cause cause turmoil just just take down x you start you know unwinding those positions

interesting um totally uh probably uh you know unrealistic but uh it's funny to think about yeah yeah interesting uh i mean my my experience on x today has not been that bad i've been seeing most most things i feel like you know and gait i mean it's terrible yeah but maybe they're targeting you because you're too powerful. But I think it could be, they could be faking it, one, to elevate their brand,

we're so important that a nation state would attack us. And two, and two, to remind us how good the app is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And to say, like, we can take this away at any time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pony up an extra $10 a month.

I still think the leading theory is they're coming after us. Yep. Anyway, China, Autonomous Agent Manus changes everything article in Can we create a Forbes? Menuse. I'm going to call it menoose.

Menoose. I mean, Nanus, I don't know. You should probably, I think you're right that it's Anyway, there's a profile in Forbes about some. Yeah, this was shaking up the timeline last week.

Why don't we read through it and then I have some other supporting posts. One recent evening in Shenzhen, a group of software engineers gathered in a dimly lit co-working space. You know you're in the journalistic trenches when you're writing about dimly lit co-working spaces. Everyone,

if something's dimly lit, it's making it into the profile. We need to get some rats. Furiously typing as they monitor the performance of their new AI system. The air was electric, thick with the hum of servers and the glow of high-resolution monitors. They were testing Manus. A revolutionary AI agent,

capable of independent thought and action. Who wrote this article? It says it was written by Manus AI for journalism. Craig Smith. Do you know what publication this is from? This is in Forbes. Oh, okay.

So they paid for it. I mean, it is crazy that Forbes has like a contributor section that you can just post anything. Forbes is also like a magazine that has like some pretty legitimate writers. And then it's also just like a forum. Yeah. With anyone that can post. So within hours, it's March 6 launch with sent shockwaves through the global AI community, reigniting a debate that had simmered for decades.

What happens when artificial intelligence stops asking for permission and starts making its own decisions? Manus is not just another chatbot, nor is it merely an improved search engine dressed in futuristic branding. It is the world's first fully autonomous AI agent, a system that doesn't just assist humans. It replaces them from analyzing financial transactions to screening job candidates. Manus navigates the digital world without oversight making decisions with a speed and precision. This is an insane article. It is. Especially once we get into the actual like how this.

product was built. I love it. That's why you come here, folks. We haven't read the article yet, but we will tell you that it's insane if it's crazy. No, no, no. It's crazy, and I'll just jump to it. This account,

at GianX. Liao says, so I simply asked Manish to give me the files at slash O-P-T-Sash-dot Manish, and it just gave me their sandbox runtime code. It's Claude on it with a bunch of tools on top of it and it uses like an out of the box, like YC company

for the browser. Yeah, it's basically like a turbo wrapper. Yeah. And I mean, okay. So they've, and they intentionally like obfuscated the code where they're trying to not make it. They intentionally tried to hide that it was running on browser use with God, but it in fact is. Okay.

So let's read a little bit of this. Let's read more of this article. but I want to know, I think as much as we're joking about like, oh, it's paid for, I don't think that's necessarily what's happening. There is another possibility here, which is just genuine, genuine risen of the journalist, which happens all the time. Totally. You can totally bring in a journalist and be like, like, I mean, I know someone who like, I mean, we see it all the time. We see it all the time with like, you bring a journalist in and you're like, the, the, the value is in the box. This isn't a future.

This isn't a futuristic surgeon. Yeah, you show them like RGB keyboards and they're like, what? Like, no way. The computer's lighting up. And so like, like, it is possible just to like, wow a journalist. The good ones, you're not going to slide this past Ashley Vance, one of the greatest journalists in history.

That's true. But who knows? But at the same time, maybe there's something real here. Let's dig in since we're only a paragraph in it. We're already judging this book by its cover. Yeah. Anyway, we're having fun here. Craig.

I love you. Good luck. Anyway, how did China often perceived as trailing the United States and Foundation AI research produced something that Silicon Valley had only theorized about? And more importantly, what does it mean for the balance of power and artificial intelligence? Okay. This is extreme ris. I know, extreme ris. We're already going so hard on this. We haven't even popped the bottle of Don Parryon.

It's a Dom episode, folks, if you haven't seen our post yet today. The second deep seek moment they're calling it, which I don't buy it. at all because I didn't actually see this takeover the timeline like Deep Seek at all. Did you? I mean, I saw some memes about it and like some people talking about it, but not, it was not like dominant in any way like Deep Seek was. So they give some backstory on Deep Seek. This is great moment. By the way, so this article is called China's Autonomous Agent Manus changes everything built, you know, entirely on US technology technology and then tech crunch, tech, uh, Anthropics in the UK, right? Aren't they? Wait, why do I think that?

Why do I think they're a European company? I don't know. Anyway. You were skiing. Maybe you banged your head. John hit his head. They just have like, they just have like a European aesthetic to them, I guess.

Yeah, they do have a state of mind. But I think they might literally be in San Francisco. Yeah, yeah. But then TechCrunch publishes an article that says Manus probably isn't China's second deep seek moment. Okay.

Wait. TechCrush did. Yeah. Ooh, tech crunch. And Axios. He's always sort of very bearish on Texas. New Chinese AI agent. draws deep sea comparison.

Maybe they were referencing. Well, that's true. Like, that's like literally what happened. But Manus represents something entirely different. It's not just another model. It's an autonomous agent. An AI system that thinks, plans, executes tasks independently, capable of navigating the real world as seamlessly as a human intern

with an unlimited attention span. And so, I mean, I guess if you're a Forbes reader and you've never heard of an AI agent, this is like informative. Manus is unique in its ability to deliver end-to-end results across diverse domains without human prompts, while most other AI systems require, some level of human input or operate within narrower scopes.

Manus acts independently offering a seamless to self-directed experience. I mean, there is something real about autonomous agents and stuff. Like, it just depends on, you know, how far are we going with this? Because they're like, it doesn't require any input. And they're like, if you tell it to do this, it will do it. It's like, well, that's an input, right? Autonomous agents already exist in narrow domains. Think trading, wow, typo.

Trading BTO's, clearly trading bots. This was hammered out. I guess they didn't. But you know it's not AI. You know it's not AI. Yeah. That's the beauty of this. You know,

maybe this entire article. My respect for this article just went through the world. But Manus multi-agent architecture enhances its ability to manage complex workflows by deploying specialized sub-agents for various tasks. That's pretty cool. A feature not yet standard in most autonomous AI systems. I don't know if that's actually true. I think there are sub-agents in some systems.

But anyway. Well, this entire article is written like a, They took all the talking points from a PR team and just wrote it out. I mean, this is an open secret that like companies write Forbes articles sometimes. Yeah, but it's not as open as it should be. I guess, yeah. This is what sets Manus apart from its Western counterparts while ChatGPT4 and Google Gemini rely on human prompts to guide them. Manus doesn't wait for instructions.

Instead, it is designed to initiate tasks on its own, assess new information and dynamically adjust its approach. For instance, given a zip file of resumes, Manus doesn't just rank candidates. It reads through each one. extracts relevant skills, Crofts references them with job market trends and presents a fully optimized hiring decision. It's funny because OpenAI could have come out with operator and done exactly this.

Oh, 100%. But it would be like over the top. It just wouldn't work. Exactly. Everyone would be like, oh my God. And so I will actually be highly impressed with Manis and give them credit if we can see evidence

of American users being like, this is super valuable. Yeah, totally. I'm using this for X, Y, Z task. Yeah, like maybe operator needs a puff piece. like this, like to actually break through. That would be, that'd be good. Yeah, the only thing standing between operator and world dominance is a Forbes. Yeah, yeah, let's call Sam. Hey, uh, you know, quit the going direct stuff. Quit, quit, quit the beef. Do you just need puff pieces from here

on out? Time to puff. Time to puff. Yeah, we need the inverse Lulu. Don't go direct. Yeah. Just, just puff. Pure puff. Uh, anyway, manis operates like an executive overseeing a team of specialized subagents, probably cool and good. This is called the multi-agent architecture. I think this is going to be a real trend. It's cloud-based asynchronous operation is another game changer. Game changer. I love it.

Traditional AI assistants need a user's active engagement. Manus does not. It runs its tasks in the background pinging users only when results are ready, much like a hyper-efficient employee who never requires micromanagement. I want Scott Wu from cognition on the show. so badly right now because he's been building on this week yeah yeah i'll i'll i'll text him and see if he can come on because like he's probably reading this being like he's not reading this he's not he's not right he's not reading this that's the only article you should be reading in forbs this week is

justin mares the broth king yes who will be coming on the show on thursday yeah that's great uh so we love forbes but that's like an actual Forbes article yeah was like a profile yeah with a real writer yeah that was like went and hung out with him yeah yeah yeah Yeah, yeah. Instead of just, like, took the talking points and kind of those. Used Manus. They used Manus to make this argument. Okay.

Here, let's go to Rowan Chung, a tech writer who tested Manus by asking it to write a biography of himself and build a personal website. Within minutes, the agent had scrapes social media, extracted professional highlights, generated a neatly formatted biography, coded a functional website and deployed it online. It even troubleshot hosting issues without ever asking for additional input. That's a pretty cool use case, if that's doable. No, that is the real potential of this technology. And it's amazing and people are going to do it.

Yeah. I only have issues with how it's being framed. Yeah. A shock to Silicon Valley system. For years, the dominant AI narrative has centered around large U.S. tech firms, Open AI, Google, meta, developing more powerful versions of their language models. The assumption was that whoever built the most sophisticated chatbot would control the future of AI. Manus disrupts that assumption.

It is not just an improvement over existing AI. It's a new category of intelligence, shifting the focus from passive assistance to self-directed action. And it is entirely Chinese built. It has triggered a new wave of unease in Silicon Valley where AI leaders have quietly acknowledged that China's aggressive push into autonomous systems could give it a first mover advantage in critical sectors. Like, Break out the, I was going to say break out the Dom because I just want to distract myself in this terrible article. This is ridiculous. Anyways, continue.

Yet, madness raises profound ethical and regulatory questions. What happens when an AI agent makes financial decisions that cost a company millions or when it executes a commanding correctly leading to world world consequences? Who is responsible when an autonomous system trained to act without oversight makes the wrong call? Well, it's the person that initiated the system very clearly. But I'm sure there'll be plenty of legal court cases around that.

Chinese regulators historically are more willing to experiment with AI deployment, but have yet to outline clear guardrails for AI. autonomy. Meanwhile, Western regulator space even greater challenge. Whatever you want. Just don't mention the Uyghurs. Yep. It's pretty simple guardrails. Yeah. The era of autonomous AI agents has begun and China is leading the charge. The rest of us need to rethink what it means to work, create, and compete in a world where intelligence is no longer a uniquely human asset. Last line is... The last line's fair.

Yeah. I think that's the only sentence that I didn't have to put in the true. Fair lines and there. It's not all junk. Anyway. Yeah, there's another, there's another reactions. The guy Philip Schmidt from the A, he's at Google Deep Mind.

So he's conflicted. So he said, hype versus reality. It's built on Anthropic Claude Sonnet, not their own foundation model, has access to 29 tools and uses browser, uh, browser use,

which is a browser control product. Uh, the user communicates with the executor agent and not the planner and other agent. Each user gets an isolated sandbox environment and it outperforms open AI deep research on the GAIA benchmark. And his take is building AI products doesn't require training your own foundation model. We're probably just scratching the surface of what existing models can do with the right tooling and integration. And this was the big point. I think it was Sarah Guo who was saying this where like even if all the model is just like,

ceased to get smarter. There's still so much low-hanging fruit. Yeah, there's still just all this low-hanging fruit. Ashton-Brenner, like the unhobblings. You need to give it access to Python. You need to give it access to the web browser. And you give it access to databases. And once it has that, it's going to perform so much better.

It is funny that, I mean, this whole narrative would be so much, so much stronger if they were using deep-seek. Then it would really feel like, oh, wow. Like, you know, like the China. Yeah, like it might be two different Chinese companies and they might be built on. It might be a deep-seek rapper. But it's like there's something serious going on over there in China. This is like kind of silly that they built it on Claude, but I guess they got to go with the best.

I mean, it's kind of a bear signal for Deep Seek too. Yeah, yeah. Odd. Yeah. Anyway, should we pop this bottle of Don Perignon? Let's do it. If you, if you're not following along, we open a bottle of Don Perriyan every time we double the show. You don't need to cut away from that.

We open a bottle of Don Perriyan on every time we double the show. the show's audience and size. We've been on an absolute tear lately, if you haven't been following. We crossed 16,000 followers. This was a while ago at this point. There was a while ago. There was a lot going on.

We were doing guests, so we didn't have a lot of time to actually do a proper Dom episode. But those who have been with us from the start have seen four or five at this point. So the next one is going to be at 32K, and we just made a new hire, which we haven't formally announced yet,

but I think we're going to hit that 32K mark fairly quickly with where things are going. Thank you, sir. And every time I open the dom, it goes everywhere. That's part of life. It is. It's part of champagne. It is. John,

cheers to you. Cheers to the show. Cheers to Ben. It really is going fantastically. We like to say that exponential growth is the most powerful force in the world. Cheers. and delicious and also Ben do you want some the only right answer you should stay locked in yeah and and the only alcohol you should drink is Don Perriand correct I stand by that yeah well let's move

on to another AI story Sam Altman's other startup is building an app to compete with Elon Musk's X talk about they are competing in every possible realm now. This is, yeah. This is just hubris. The CEO of OpenAI imagines a future

where you'll constantly demonstrate that you're not a robot. His everything app is the answer, but first he needs to look deep into your eyes. From Christopher Mims, an actually great journalist. Love Christopher Mims. Mim.

And yeah, this is obviously built on top of WorldCoin. The eyeball scanner, very controversial. But at the same time, there's a ton of bots. I don't know if you saw Nikita Beer. talking about this over the weekend. Yeah.

Saying like, you know, anytime you get some weird reply, just Google the person's name. No, not even weird, just any reply. Any reply. Yeah. See if they're a real person. Oh, the interesting, uh, relevant example to this was there was a woman that just was hyping Manist just over and over and over super aggressively.

Uh, this woman named Jen Zhu. And I, she says she's an investor. She has a TED talk. Yeah. Uh, which, which is. real but then you go to her fun but to be fair Sam Hyde also has a tag doc so that's true it's not anybody anybody can have a TED talk these days yeah everybody gets a universal basic basic TED talk in Forbes article so anyways I look I look up her fund and on LinkedIn there's

there's nobody that works for the fun not even her weird so and it's an AI generated image she's got a bunch of followers it's like very clearly you know I You know, if she's a real person, Jen Zhu, come on the show. Yeah. You're welcome. What's odd is like to talk to you about Manus. It's like, there's clearly a real person behind the bots. So like, why don't they just use their own photo in name?

Like, it's very odd. Anyway, let's read a little bit of this and give you some backstory on, on what Sam's thinking with a social network that is bot free. Mims writes, these ubiquitous orbs would allow us to do anything requiring identification online or in real life from buying bread to paying. taxes. Very interesting example there. It's a vision reminiscent to other efforts. It's like the most dystopian. You're going to use your orb. You're going to use your orbit when you're in the bread line. When you're in the bread line? When you're paying Uncle Sam. Yeah, yeah, paying taxes and the

future is just buying bread and paying taxes. It's not like it's like it could be so much more optimist it. You could be. You're going to need this. You're going to need this to go. It could easily be like, yeah, you need this to log into your flying car. Like, you know, when, when you get through customs on the moon, like, you could be so much more optimistic instead. It's just buying bread and paying taxes. That's the future. What do they say? Death and taxes. Bread and taxes. That's the future. It's a vision reminiscent of bread and circuses. Yeah, not even bread and circuses. It's a vision reminiscent of other recent efforts, including Amazon's attempt to replace credit cards with our palms and ant groups efforts in China to make it possible to pay with your face.

The big difference? The builders of an app called World, including Chief Executive Alex Blania, and his co-founder, Sam Altman of Open AI Fame, envision a time in the not too distant future when you can't do much without an ocular check-in. AI agents will be so prevalent and so human-like that will need to repeatedly prove we're human to prevent those AIs from masquerading as humans on everything from payment platforms to social networks. I think that there is something legitimate here. Rune had a good post about the variations in understanding how much AI is between you and the person that you're interacting with. And it's like, it's like, because there will be your, you're interfacing with like a humanoid robot, but there's,

there's a human teleoperating it and you're hearing a real voice versus the opposite, which is like you're talking to an actor, but everything, all the lines they're saying are chat GPG generated or something. So there's like, yeah, all these weird edge cases. Or the humanoid that you're talking to in English is a AI agent. Yeah. That is just generating. Totally. And I mean, Clearly this is coming. Clearly there needs to be some sort of counterweight to this, whether it's regulatory or technology. And I like the idea of a tech-based solution here,

as opposed to something like, oh, we're scared of bots online. Let's ban them or like, let's make it illegal to use, you know, AI generated text. I mean, everybody that's traveled at all, it's now the facial recognition is technically not required, but it is so aggressively pushed that people don't read. realize it's not required when you're in the TSA security, you can just say, I don't want to do a

facial recognition scan today. And they go, okay, and they just look at your ID and you can go through. So it's still opt in. But they've been sort of training the citizenry on, you know, this technology. And yeah, I always opt in. I want to prove my loyalty to America. Yeah. Yeah. And the deep state specifically. I want them to now. I'm on their side. I'm on your team. These are my guys. Yeah, John's guys. Yeah. AI agents will be so prevalent. Future member.

Yeah. To accelerate adoption. Deep State Hall of Fame. Let's just make sure we keep politics out of the deep state, folks. To accelerate adoption of what the world calls, it's autonomous proof of human system. The company recently launched a mini app inside of its app, which is available for iPhones and Android devices. World's mini app is part of a broader strategy to create an everything app. These apps, so-called super apps are common throughout Asia,

World's Mini App Store, which currently includes services to send and receive cryptocurrency, chat with verified humans, and access microloans is a first step towards creating what Altman, Blania, and their team hope will be a vast ecosystem, reaching more than a billion people. And as the company's identification system expands, they anticipate their main competitor will be Elon Musk's own attempt at an Everything app X. I think it will take a while until we seriously collide. Blania told me on Tuesday, given that X is now primarily a social network, the app formerly known as Twitter, has yet to launch a payment service. So here's the crazy thing.

I do believe that OpenAI will have significantly more monthly actives than X by the end of the year, which is a wild situation where, so Elon is competing with Open AI by, you know, forcing you to use GROC in these various ways, which is small. But then Sam Altman could catalyze his own competitive product to X by funneling people from chat GPT into the world everything app, whatever. Yeah. It's an interesting dynamic. Yeah.

So the orbs have not launched in the United States, but there are pictures of them all over in like foreign countries, which is kind of an interesting strategy. I mean, most of the time, like you want to launch in the U.S. first and then kind of broaden out, but they're kind of doing the opposite. Within about 12 months, however, Blania believes the two services will start to compete in earnest. If so, it would be notable development, in part because making everything apps work in the West has proved extremely difficult. The bottom line is that for most people with an Android phone or iPhone who haven't grown up in the tech ecosystems of Asia, those app stores already offer the versatility and flexibility that everything apps do. Sam Allman's involvement in World might also encourage competition between World and X.

It's so hard to... pugliistic nature. It's so hard to kickstart and everything at because imagine if you go and you get Uber, DoorDash, you build your own messaging. You know, you need some sort of like WeChat, for example, has some core like calling, browser, chat, et cetera. And if you go to an American user now and you say, hey, I'm going to give you messaging, a browser, chat, and I'm going to give you like Uber and all these other in games and all these things, they're going to say, okay, I have all of that. So potentially the only way to actually get somebody to switch over is like, I'm going to pay you to switch.

Like other, because like the value trade is just not there. Right? Because if you get on WorldCoyne, they give you some WorldCoyn, then they can moon. So it's like the same. So it's possible. Yeah, yeah. So it's just, yeah, unless you're literally paying your users. It's like you could, you could very easily imagine this working if Apple somehow, I don't know,

acquired it or like built it in because when you think about like like you know you need to be scanning all the time you need very deep access to the camera APIs to make sure that you're getting like real images instead of like images that have been passed through some sort of extra layer or something all the different biometrics in the face in the face ID system but I don't think like face ID is a world we need a we need a we need a orb to figure out if these are real images of JD vans or not yeah um So a few people in the U.S. have heard of world, formerly known as World Coin. If they have, it's probably on account of the company's unique biometric identification system, the orb.

So far, orbing millions of people hasn't proved popular with governments around the world as more than a dozen have either suspended its operation in their countries or else examined its handling of personal data. World investor and venture capitalist Ben Horowitz said on a recent episode of his podcast with Mark Andresen that the loosening restrictions on crypto companies in the U.S., He anticipates world will become legal in the U.S. this year. At present, the company doesn't scan eyeballs in the U.S. or allow Americans to hold its world coin token for fear of regulators. Altman has said. When asked how long it will be until World sets up locations in the U.S.,

where people can walk in, present their irises, and become part of the network, Blania declined to say, but he adds the effort is top of mind for him. In general, Blania brushes aside concerns about regulators both in the U.S. and abroad. Okay, so this is a crazy statistic. World and its orb eyeball skinner have verified 11 million people. They scan the irises of 11 million people. That is very impressive just from a logistical standpoint to get that done.

And I wish we had more footage on the ground of how this is happening because I'm imagining they show up in a small town. And it's just one dude with an orb. And he's like, okay, like you're come get your eye scan. we're going to, you might get money in the future. It seems like probably the trade. Yeah, yeah. Basically, you get a token drop. Yeah.

And maybe those tokens are liquid. You can sell them immediately. No, but I don't think anybody's getting airdrop the token yet. No, not if you scanned? I thought that was one way to get access. I thought you could also just buy the token right now, but I don't know. You can just buy it. Okay.

It's at a $7.5 billion valuation. Not bad. fully diluted with a market cap of 800 million if you just look at the circulating. So significantly lower than Trump coin. Well, I haven't looked at Trump coin. Is Trump coin going to offer eyeballs scanning? Official Trump.

They really should. Trump is down to a $2 billion. $2 billion? It's funny. So Trump coin is down less than the S&P. It's a better store of value than Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's doing that in Mag 7. This is fantastic. Other systems that rely on biometrics have unnerved users and governments in the past. It's easy to forget the hue and cry once raised about face ID on the iPhone, the face scanning technology. Most people now use to unlock their Apple devices. When it introduced, there were concerns about it both as a potential security liability

and because of the way it evoked mass surveillance systems in China that rely on facial recognition. World says its network is anonymous and secure and only proves you're a person, but it could be made part of a broader identity system. One of World's distinguishing features is that it is an anonymous proof of human system. That is, its eyeball scan can verify that you're a human being and not an AI, but without additional software and systems, it can't identify who you are. What could drive people to adopt a system like that, worlds will be the rise of ever more sophisticated AIs that will make doing business on the Internet,

almost impossible. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, if the content's good, sign me up, scan my eyeball. I want to see good posts. And if there's no bots and the posts for better, I'm a slop pig for the content. I'm willing to share my biometric data if it gets me, you know, a couple funny bangers in the feed. The real question is, is will the slop app be more? John, by the way, has already finished his first glass here. Cheers. Cheers. Yeah, I mean, the real question is like, is like revealed preferences. The stated preference is like, oh,

I don't want to interact with any bots online. But the revealed preference might be, oh, I love when 100 bots show up and like my post. Yeah. You know, so we'll see. We'll see which one people go with.

There's been a few of these where... The challenge here is that they're mixing, they're trying to do multiple things at once. Yeah. Right? They're trying to build this, in their words, autonomous proof of human system.

Yep. Which to me says it's more like this developer. product that other applications and services and things in the real world could leverage as a tool to verify identity and prevent bots. Simultaneously, they now have this token, which is its own product in itself, right? We've talked about this before. The sort of the product of the token is its price. And so the incentive is just to just sort of like drive up the price and do sort of, you know, manipulate the market in that way. And then now they're also. saying we're going to also do consumer apps and we're also going to do an everything app and it's

starting to be like a lot of things have to go right right sam lesson talked about this last week and i think this is a good framework yeah which is like if you're investing in something how many individual things need to go right yeah what was this phrase like no bank shots or something like that yeah yeah and so here like you know these some of these are experiments yeah but and but and but and it's clear they have sort of like user traction on the supply side they got they got eyeballs right uh but Yeah, eyeballs. Mary Meeker would be proud. Mary Meeker would be very proud. 11 million eyeballs. During the dot com, that's 10 billion in market cap for sure. Easily. She'll take that public all day. And so they got a lot of things seemingly, they're trying to do a lot at once. Yeah. And it seems unclear that any of these things are, again, what users want. I mean, Mims is, you were, you were impressed by 11 million. Mims here says, world has only. or verified 11 million people worldwide, despite the fact that it literally pays them. Okay, so they are paying them in real time.

25 tokens per scan, roughly $25 at today's prices, now offers 16 tokens per scan. At the launch date for X's money account service is unclear, the company has said that it will count visa as its first partner for X. X did not respond to a request for comment. And so, yeah, I mean, I wonder if they can keep the token price high. enough keep raising money he says here x has vastly more users than world does but it's unclear how many people will be eager to entrust in elon musk owned company with their financial lives i mean they trust him to drive them yeah around uh so anyways that seems like a stretch but but overall uh x has more users than world but i believe by the end of the year open a i will have more users than x yeah and so

Are you proposing some sort of like like theory of like you know Elon companies and we should be thinking about like the same companies? No I'm more I'm more so saying I'm more just saying you can imagine a collaboration between open AI and world sure where they drive world coin usage through the open AI app in the same way that X is partnered with XAI and they're two separate companies but they're obviously deeply integrated you can see the same thing happening with with WorldCoin and the chat GPT app. Yeah that'd be pretty crazy but I I but I think that makes sense. Yeah, you could imagine. So here's something I've thought about before. So a lot of people have said, give me the best open AI models, unlimited access. One of the challenges there is that you could sort of do that, but then people would build software on top of them

where they would just be like querying it and using it for other apps. And so Sam could come out and say, okay, you can use unlimited open AI as long as you are periodically doing the sort of like eyeball recognition through the orb or something to that effect. Right. So it's like you're actually, using the product you're not just like software a bot that's just sort of like using up inference

on behalf of other applications yeah i want to see i want to see the the the the pen testers and the hackers try and beat this thing i want to see george hots jail break a an orb uh because when when face id came out people were like well if i 3d print my face and then i put it up and i have this mask like i can still get through um and it's not that big of a deal people were trying to break it but Obviously, like, it is a huge vulnerability if it's like, you know, the FBI sees the phone and they're not supposed to be able to get in, but then they can just like 3D print a picture of your face and then put hold it up and it verifies. Yeah, it seems like Apple's gotten pretty good at that. Yeah, it does seem like it's, you don't hear about, oh, the FBI hack this person's phone by, you know, holding it up. Wasn't there some story about that where they hold it up to someone's face like while they're sleeping or something like that?

I feel like that's happened. I think the safety mechanism is that your eyes have. have to be open. Oh, for face ID? I think so. Okay. Interesting. Let me confirm. Yeah. Well, it'll be a knockout, dragout. Yeah, your eyes do have. I'm sure it continues. I'm sure there'll be more entertainment. Uh, never a dull moment when Sam Altman and Elon Musk are I would like to have, I, I would like to get, uh, I'd like to have the World Coin CEO on the show. Yeah, I'd love that. Just have them give the, the full pitch because it's clearly compelling. Yeah. It does feel weird, but it also feels like something that like we could look back on and

been like, yeah, that was like, that was a novel enough idea that it broke out. Because, because it's weird and different. And so I've been. Yeah. And if I'm ever, if I'm traveling in any exotic lands, you're going to get scanned. 25 bucks is 25 bucks. It's 25 bucks. That's a, that's a, that's a shish kebab somewhere. You know, uh, air one. It's an air one burrito. burrito. Yeah. Yeah. With almost,

you can almost get it delivered off. Almost. Not overseas. Almost. Not overseas. Almost. Okay. Well,

should we move on to Palmer Lucky in the Wall Street Journal? Yeah. Who is this guy again? Palmer Lucky or Tim Higgins, the guy who wrote the show? Tim Higgins, Tim Higgins.

No, I'm just joking. Palmer Lucky, they're calling him Donald Trump's original tech bro. He gets his moment in this article. Hit him with a slur in the title. Yeah.

Technology brother, please. Donald Trump's original technology brother. Once an outcast, the Anderil founder's vision for modernizing the government seems possible. Okay, opening line of this article, generally tech bros tend to overestimate their ability to change the world. It's, I was talking to a salon about this. We're going to have salon on the show and talk about like the etymology of the tech bro thing. Yeah. This is a tough thing because we love the journal.

Yeah. It's overall fantastic. but to take such a clear and aggressive shot against our culture in the opening line. Exactly. You know, what I'm sure got to mention on the front page. Yeah. I mean, I think we've kind of like retooled and reclaimed this term enough. But it's just very silly because it's such a meaningless term that it really just meant like anyone who's a male intact.

Yeah. Also, if you think about anybody who ever invented anything, a lot of them could be described. as like, oh, he was a guy that was into technology. Yeah. And yeah, there's many more people that sort of overestimated their abilities and came up short and didn't invent this important thing. But we need a hundred people to try and only one to be successful in order to sort of move the world forward.

Yeah, like when this came out, I thought the bar for bro should be way, way higher. What do you mean? What I mean is that like, like, so there's everyone in tech. And then there's everyone in tech who's male. But not everyone in tech who's a male is a tech bro. In order to be a tech bro, you have to be actively running a technology company that's like building software or hardware. But then also doing keg stands, chugging Miller Light, like crushing nooners, lots of tattoos,

lots of days on the lake, like lots of tank tops, lots of pushups. Like you have to be jacked. Yeah, like Alexis joined with a tank top. You could kind of say his tech bro. And he lives in South Florida. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

I would forgive the journal for calling him a tech bro. But as term of him. This picture is he's wearing a Hawaiian shirt. He looks like he's potentially the social chair at the top for term of his college. I think it's really just like up to up to Palmer. If he's if he wants to be a tech bro and use that, that's fine. But for many years it was it was it was used as pejorative. It was used as a slur.

It was used to discredit someone. And the reason was because the idea of doing science and doing engineering was antithetical to crushing beers with your absolute boys in the frat house. And so by saying, oh, this person's a bro, it meant that they can't be a serious technologist when that was clearly proven false. Yeah. By Zock. The Winklevoss brothers.

Yeah, all these different folks. Running a top crypto exchange. Yes, yes. So he goes on to write, Palmer's support of Donald Trump in 2016 got him, according to his recounting, booted from liberal Silicon Valley, pushed out of his job at Facebook and made into a pariah. All that despite the fact that he had sold his virtual reality company, Oculus VR, to Mark Zuckerberg's social media company for billions and was seen as the OG of VR. I kind of like this rating, actually. It's pretty good. Dejected, he went on to build the next thing, Killer AI.

It's a hell of an origin story for Anderall Industries whose initial spell AI. Lucky named the company after the hero's sword and the Lord of the Rings, a weapon also known as the Flame of the West. In many ways, Lucky wants his weapons company. And that's just... It's just one of the best names

and stories behind the name in Silicon Valley history, the Flame of the West. Flame of the West. Incredible. In doing so, Lucky has become one of the brightest examples of a new wave of ascendant entrepreneurs. They eschew what has made Silicon Valley so powerful, personal gadgets and ad tech,

and pour themselves into super hard and sometimes controversial sciences and engineering, as they say, and they say can make America better. Supersonic airplanes, nuclear energy, space travel. These days, lucky, it's funny because those examples shouldn't really be like, why are they controversial? We should have controversial airplanes. I mean, I guess nuclear is a little controversial, but space. space travel isn't controversial, is it?

I guess it is. There's people that say we shouldn't go to space. Because the firmament stuff? No, no, no. We have problems on. Because they're challenging God. Yeah, yeah. Because it's infrunted God to try and leave God's green earth.

They say, why are you spending all this money blowing up your rockets in space? Sure, sure. We have enough problems on Earth. All those hundreds of millions of dollars. Also very controversial of your flat earther, the space travel stuff. So they might be talking about that. They might be highlighting the fact that flat earthers don't like tech people. Oh, we're going to go to space.

and they're like doing it over and over. Yeah, making movies about it. Exactly, exactly. These days, Lucky likes to tell his origin story, especially when it became, uh, become cool for Zuckerberg and other tech leaders to be seen as cozing up to President Trump.

Zuckerberg told Congress that Lucky's Facebook departure had nothing to do with politics. Speaking of Zuckerberg, cozying up to, uh, the American right wing. Yeah. Uh, he was at the UFC. UFC Saturday night and the stream was really not functioning well.

Really? So Dana, like the paper view. So Dana White was streaming from his phone. Really? And you could hear, he was just, yeah, it was round one. He just had it playing. And you could hear Zuckerberg talking, being like, oh, where are you streaming from right now? What account are you streaming from?

I think he wanted to go look and like test, like, see the quality. Yeah, yeah. So even during the UFC event, he was founder mode. Yeah, wanted to make sure it was during the main event. That's great. It's cool. I love that. All these people have tidied up all of their inconvenient beliefs.

Lucky says, which I love. I'm not going to throw it back in their faces and say, oh yeah, but what about this thing that you did eight years ago? It's just not productive. Yeah, he said it before it's good. One man. That's a little bit different.

That's not really an inconvenient belief. That's like a personal interaction. But yeah, we don't talk about politics on the show. Better position now. Lucky is clearly trying to take advantage of the moment that Trump's assent has created, especially with the Elon Musk-led government efficiency effort and a role in other high-tech companies are. trying to convince the Pentagon that their technologies are part of the solution for a more

efficient modern government than what's offered by the lumbering giants in defense. The core thesis of Anderil is that we are not a defense contractor, lucky said. We are a defense product company. We put our own money into building things and we show up not with a PowerPoint, but with a working product. And so the taxpayer isn't taking on the development risk for these products. It's great. The flipped model.

The venture capitalists are. Makes a lot of sense. Exactly. We're grateful for them. Yep. Lucky was dismissed by Tech Pierce as crude and out of touch. Even now, some in Washington remain unimpressed, but for different reasons. What does this guy know about virtual reality? What does this guy known for virtual reality know about the battlefield? A rival last year called Anderil the Theranos of defense. I think I know who they're talking about. And it's like, it's like not a rival at all.

It's not like another entrepreneur business person. It's like a random poster. Yeah. It's like, it's not like. An online rival. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but giving them too much credit to say they're a rival. Yeah, yeah. Also, Theranos, yeah, you could give it blood, but it would just sort of not, you know,

couldn't really do much with it. Yeah. They've shown that they can actually create products that do, you know, they can blow up a truck. Yeah. Which by nature means that Theranos is not the right comparison at all. It's very silly. Lucky responded on the social media platform acts with a photo of his own head superimposed on Elizabeth Holmes' body.

a former journalist major before dropping out to work on Oculus and a camper parked in his parents' home. Lucky understands the power of narrative. Even his name sounds like something out of an Elmore Leonard novel. Like he should be a lone shark busting heads in Miami rather than an arms dealer holding court in Mara Lago. He's known for his Hawaiian t-shirts, flip-flops and goatee and a willingness to talk about whatever's on his mind, conspiracy theories, video games, management theories, etc. The first time I met Lucky a few years ago, He talked to me with an incredible enthusiasm. It's also so, I mean, this article is funny because it's making him sound really cool.

Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, like, clearly has a negative bend to it. Yeah, yeah. Calling him an arms dealer versus a technologist focused on defense. Exactly, exactly. Comparing him to a lone shark busting heads because his name based on his name. Yeah, I don't get that. This person clearly hasn't studied nominative determinism because there's nothing in

Palmer Freeman Lucky that says Lone Shark to me. Yeah. Anyway, the first time this writer met Palmer Lucky a few years ago, he talked to me with an incredible enthusiasm about an idea for why people should raise hippos in the swamp lands of Louisiana for food. It was something he read about from the 1950s, he said, I've read this book, the American hippopotamus. It's a fantastic plan.

It actually got all the way to Congress. There was a bill proposed to bring hippos to Louisiana, raise them for food. and Palmer's here arguing and kind of the same thesis it was better for land management than grazing cattle on prime real estate elsewhere like you're not going to build

a bunch of housing on the bayou so put the hippos there they're a little dangerous but you can like you know fence them in and then it's fine and he says lucky assured me that hippo meat was tasty it's red meat

though after some prodding he admitted that he had never tried it yeah because it's hard to get a hand on Andrew was originally backed by Peter Teal's Founders Fund and co-founder with Palantir technology alums, including Democrats. We should give some background on founders fund for anybody that.

Oh, yeah, for sure. Maybe joined a second ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyone who's living under Iraq, it started out as building censor towers during the first Trump administration to spot people crossing the border illegally. The company evolved to produce robot drones and then robot submarines called Go Sharks.

The gist is to keep U.S. soldiers out of harm's way if they all operate with AI, running on a central operating system, and a role developed to run across it's hardware. That's called lattice, which we've talked about before. This show actually runs on lattice. Just the most cognitive. That's our nickname.

That should be our new nickname for Ben. Hey, lattice. Ladis. Yeah, yeah, Jarvis over here. Pull up this post right now. The entrepreneur has proven AI has a place in war and the Ukraine, Russia and Israel, Hamas war show that futuristic ideas are becoming commonplace, changing the face of war and how it will be fought in the years ahead.

In January, Anderil announced plans to invest almost a billion dollars into a factory in Ohio to build autonomous jet fighters in the U.S. for the Air Force, the contract at one last year. And in February, Anderl said it was taking over Microsoft's $22 billion contract with the U.S. Army to develop augmented reality headsets for the battlefield, a project that marries Lucky's past and present. And I love that. A lot of people are like, oh, what's going to happen there? It's like, he is the perfect person for this. He's like the most qualified person in the world to do VR for the military. this line. So he made this announcement. He says, whatever you are imagining, however crazy you imagine I am, multiply it by 10 and then do it again. Bucky wrote, I am back and I'm only getting

started. It is over. We're so back. It's great. I love it. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Anyway, yeah, it's so funny when people come for Palmer is like, oh, he, he's unqualified for this. It's like, he's, I think he's now, like, in his 30s. And he spent his entire career in in like the most powerful rooms in America, in like high growth companies, doing real work in every industry. Also, every industry player. The consensus view of the future of warfare is sort of swarms of autonomous, often small, uh, hardware devices.

Yeah. So maybe you want to, you want the guy who built like this super complicated VR product and scaled it to millions of sales. Yeah. Maybe that would be a good guy to, to, to, to, to, to, He's like one of the only hardware founders to be successful out of that 2010's batch. Like there were a few others that did okay, smart watches, scales and stuff. But like, yeah, obviously, Oculus, fantastic.

So we'll have to have him on the show. Dig in more. A little bit of a little bit of a, a little bit of a, just like, you know, a little tour of who Palmer is. I wouldn't call it a puff piece. Yeah, it's a little bit of just like. It had some negativity, some positivity, but, you know, didn't go too deep. We didn't have to put it too hard in the truth zone. No, no, no.

It was a mild, mild truth zone. Anyway, I'm going to use the restroom? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're moving over to Deep Seek. This is an interesting story. So, obviously, Deep Seek blew up and did have an impact on the timeline. A lot of people were following it. And now investors want a piece of Deep Seek.

But the founder of Deep Seek says not now. This is from the Wall Street Journal, March 10th. The founder of Chinese Artificial Intelligence Star, Deep Seek, which of course spun out of that hedge fund we talked about, has rejected proposals to make quick money from his programs, telling prospective investors that he wants to keep the science project ethos that brought him to global renown. Overwhelmed by millions of users,

DeepSeek's chatbot has frequent service hiccups and authorities around the world are restricting its use over data security concerns. The U.S. is weighing measures, including banning DeepSeek from government devices, which of course makes sense, because if you're using Deepseek as an open source LLM that you're self-hosting, you're not sending data there. There's still the question of, is there some sort of Manchurian candidate deep inside the weights? But that's kind of, you know,

science fiction right now. But if you're using the Deep Seek app, literally every query, everything that you put into that, that chat box is going to Deep Seek, which of course is a Chinese company and ultimately responsible to the CCP potentially. And so he is also cautious about government linked investors. They said because he believes the connection to Beijing could make it harder to win global adoption of deep-seek's AI models. Leong is at the same, Leong Wenbang has told associates that he isn't in a hurry to get investment. The Chinese company made a global splash earlier this year

with its free-to-use open-source AI models. It was the moment Deepseek had aimed for since Leong's band of AI researchers began their quest two years ago with words they attributed to French director Francois Truffaut. Be insanely ambitious and, and, and insanely sincere. Interesting. So I'm just pulling this up.

It was my first thought was Deep Seek is number 20 in productivity right now. GROC is 31. So GROC is falling. Jimmy Johns, I don't believe, is in the productivity category. Jimmy John's app store. If you weren't following the app store last week,

the top three apps were chat GPT, Jimmy Johns and Hallow? Yeah. A prayer app. Big week. So you really get to choose your God. You get to choose your AI God, your Christian God,

or your sandwich God. So Jimmy Johns is taking an absolute tumble. Oh, no. 46 and food and drinks. And nowhere near. That's terrible. Not even in the game anymore. They're going to have to come out with a new sandwich.

Yeah. Get some refer a friend going on in there. Or they could say, hey, if you can prove your human, you can get a $25 gift card to Jimmy John's. You do what Nikita does where you go to, you go to get your sandwich, you check out,

and then afterwards it says like, hey, do you want to know what the sandwich artist that made your sandwich thinks about you? And then you click $5 and it unlocks. It's like, yeah, they thought you were kind of rude.

They thought you were kind of rude. Oh, they actually thought you were really nice and you tipped really well. They thought you were dripped out. They thought you were dripped out. Exactly. Yeah,

yeah, pay to unlock a compliment. It's a cure of mail loneliness. this might actually be a good idea. I think we got to get Nikita on the line and pitch it to him and then pitch it to Jimmy John himself. Jimmy. Who also should come on the show. Leong was invited to a who's who list of Chinese executives

who met leader Xi Jinping on February 17th and his success has prompted a gushing of patriotism in China. You know, this is something we should copy. I feel like if you invent a viral app or a cool foundation model, get let's get you in the white house shake the president's hand the whole tour you know yeah they do the same if you if you are an athlete and you do something yeah yeah yeah they always invite the winning super bowl team presidential medal of freedom you know if you build a chat gpt rapper that just goes crazy yeah we need the medal of innovation yes exactly exactly and the medal of slop yeah yeah yeah the worker 17 guys from

yc yeah get him in the white house shaking hands yeah how you do it with that dom perion over there Why don't you polish that off? I'll refill. The state-owned bank of China has offered to grant... That was just John not wanting to... To just double down. The state-owned bank of China has offered to grant a low-interest loan to the company. People familiar with discussions said, in interest in recent weeks,

executives from Chinese technology companies, including Tencent and Alibaba have met Liang to discuss potential cooperation. I'm sure they want to stake of this company. I said people familiar with the companies. those people said Liang didn't want to charge for Deep Seek's core AI models, which are currently free. If your models, if your model's so good, why don't you charge for it? Why are you afraid to charge money for it? The startup published techniques that's used to train its AI models using downgraded chip and video design for China. It aims to release its next user model.

Designed for solving complex problems as early as April. So stay tuned for Deepseek v4, probably. We'll see if that's a bigger model. It'd be interesting to follow. rise of the high flyer Leong born in 1985. We already did a deep dive on this guy. You can go find it on the channel. But founded a hedge fund known in English as high flyer in 2015.

Its Chinese name alludes to an ancient Han dynasty diagram with a magic square, a mathematical peculiarity in which the rows, columns, and diagonals of the square all add up to the same number going Sudoku mode. Sudoku vibes. I like it.

Leong was proud that Chinese sages discovered the concept long before the West said people who know him. In its hiring advertisements, High Flyer sounded more like a technology firm than a hedge fund. This is pretty common with what's going on with Jane Street and Citadel. It even tried to put the word technologies in its name before regulator said, no. I mean, that's cool. It looked for people who had won math contests. We've seen this happen in America before with the IMO gold medalists, all going to work for ramp.

The fund promised as much as $270,000 a year for AI engineers at a campus event in 2020 to support their AI ambitions. Liang and his team use the profits from the hedge fund, which charged the same type of hefty fees as U.S. hedge funds do, so probably two and 20 or more. Leong's quant fund significantly outperformed the market between 2015 and 2020, sometimes scoring returns that were 20 to 50 percentage points more than stock market benchmarks. In 2021, high flyer had 14. doing pretty well. Yeah, had $14 billion. You want to keep reading? I'll keep reading. Where do you end off? In 2021, High Flyers assets under management. In 2021, High Flyer Technologies Assets under management reach around $14 billion, according to people familiar with the matter. But the fund's performance soon faded by late 2021 when dozens of High Flyers products were down

by more than 10% from their recent peak. The company apologized to its investors for its performance. one of its flagship funds lost money in both 2022 and 2023, although it beat the benchmark index, it was supposed to track. Two years ago, High Flyer largely closed itself to new investors and started in mid-24, 2024 to encourage some investors to redeem their investments. They're like, we have such a good short position that we're building. We would like you to just sort of take out your money and just let us just like reap the by the end of last year. But it's such a funny thing. A lot of hedge funds have done this. No, no, I know.

Jane Street doesn't have any outside capital, I believe, and a lot of other funds have kind of moved towards less and less LPs, if they can. By the end of last year, High Flyers assets under management had shrunk significantly. To me, this looks like, you know, one reason is that you just don't want sort of outsized, outside scrutiny into what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's more leaks. Newcomers going to get your returns as soon as you get an LP who has a subscription. Yeah, that's right. And you can't have that happening. and also just regulation because there's just more people that can sue you for saying, hey, you know, what you did was not meeting your fiduciary responsibilities. Yeah. And then, of course, once you have so many investors, of course, you might need to go public or something.

Yeah. There's a lot of difference. So in mid-20203, the fund announced a strategic shift and created Deep Seek as an independent organization. High Flyer put almost all its revenue from the Quant Fund business into AI development, according to the company's posts on Chinese social media. High Flyer said it would devote itself fully to A. technology that serves the common good of all mankind sounds like it was written by the CCP

Deepseeks AI models are generally free although it does offer so Yeah, they just they they just care about the good of humanity purely purely It's problem is handling the traffic surge so they're struggling to handle the traffic but they don't want investment they'll just take the ultra low interest rate loan from the Bank of China. Not conflicted at all. They're just in it for humanity, okay? Like it's just about humanity. They want to keep the models free.

Yep. Just free models for everyone. We're going to lever up. Yep. We're going to take low interest rates from the bank of China. The Bank of the CCP. Yep. Just one board member.

Xi Jinping. That's it. Yeah, yeah. To lessen the overload on its servers, deep seek has been offering deep distance. accounts to paying customers who use its services in the early morning so you can get Timo Deepseek credits if you're using it at the right hours. So some Chinese tech giants such as Tencent are testing Deepseek to power features including a search engine of Tencent's messaging

and payment app. They don't have to pay Deepseek to do so. Tencent users can opt for a chatbot that is powered by Deepseek but uses Tencent's own more stable computer network. So since late 2023, Deepseek pitched itself to several events. venture capital firms, including some foreign firms. This is a great strategy, by the way. Say you're not raising. Say you don't want money, but then go raise. It creates this dynamic that, you know, can really get people to FOMO in. Apparently the foreign firms declined to invest because they couldn't see a clear path to recouping their money. It's never stopped a Western capital allocator from investing before, to be clear. Opening eyes like, we're going to, we're going to,

you, didn't they come out with some, like, prospectus that was, like, At a certain point when you're raising, you know, tens of billions of dollars, you basically have to tell people, like, we see no path to, we see no realistic path to, like, recouping this investment. Oh, just like safe harbor stuff? Yeah, safe harbor stuff. Yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe. I mean, I think the projections are pretty, pretty aggressive, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, we're going to lose money. And then we will be the only, you know, profit center in the entire world. Basically. Yeah. Good strategy. Yeah, so Anyways, he says for now, yeah, yeah, that's it.

He says for now, Leong appears to be sticking to the vision he expressed in a rare interview in 2023. We don't do applications. We just do research and exploration, he said then. Yeah, I mean, I think the real way to like kind of understand what's actually going on with deep seek is that you have to benchmark its app store performance as you just did. They're at 47, 42, something like that. No, 21. 21. You have to benchmark that against what happened with TikTok. I'm sure TikTok was number one in the app store for a little bit and then dropped down. But the question is like, will it regain momentum and will it continue to become dominant? And will there be some sort of economy or durable growth engine? Like we saw with TikTok there were a series of growth strategies that really drove it into the significant. penetration of the Western market. And that was first and foremost, you know, a unique feature.

You could not make a lip sync video with, with like IP protected music very easily on Instagram or Snapchat. And so you would download, just like you downloaded Instagram to do photo filters, and then it happened every photo that you filtered, it would happen to post. And then you would share that photo elsewhere, maybe. You'd save your camera roll and share it elsewhere, maybe uploaded on Facebook, but it was shared to the social network. Same thing happened with TikTok. Then it became, okay, well, now they're advertising on Facebook and Snapchat very aggressively bringing in new users. And then finally, they created the creator fund. And so all of a sudden, the power law creators on TikTok had jobs, had like businesses. And so you had people

like Charlie DeMilleau and there were a whole ton of these creators that would get a slice based on how much traffic and how many views they were getting. They were getting tons of views. They weren't getting paid a ton, but they were making enough to justify quitting their jobs and going all in on content and making sure that. And then also just creating the dream of this new American dream of like, if you have an idea or you're going to dancing or you're hot

or you have anything going on, you can get on TikTok. If you go viral enough times, you will start getting checks. Or you're a corporate athlete. You remember that guy? Yes. That's one of the first probably creators that we sort of like.

Really resonated away. We thought it was more funny than I think. I think anyone else. I know, I know. What's the guy's name? I have no idea. I never remember the name of a short form creator ever. Yeah, it's just weird thing. The only thing you remember, you remember their bit.

Yep, totally. He would wake up and he'd be like running and he'd be like, Yeah, lock in folks, that whole thing. No, I know exactly who you were talking about. I don't remember his name because it was just like so ethereal. It's very much like, like TikTok and the short form stuff is very much like bathroom graffiti. It's like everyone sees it.

No one remembers it. Yeah. It's just like, hi. high traffic, but it doesn't make a statement as opposed to, you know, a two-hour Christopher Christopher Nolan film, like leaves an impression on people, even if less people see it. It has like a profound effect. Or a really good TED Talk. Or a really good TED Talk.

We talked to the data. We talked to the experts. The Sam Hyde Ted Talk is very memorable. It's one of the greatest comedy bits of all time. It's very, very funny. Anyway, should we do car technology driving people crazy? Should we move on to the timeline? What do you think, Jordy?

I'm down to hit this, and then let's get into the timeline. Okay, yeah. So, you know, we're car people here. We like talking cars. We like talking trends in cars. We're big advocates for the next Tesla roadster having a naturally aspirated V8 with a gated manual shifter.

We're willing it. We're going to make it happen. We're going to have Elon on the show eventually, and we're going to confront him about that, recommend it to him. And I think we have a winner on our hands if you can get that across the line. There's been a lot of talk about,

oh, Tesla's down 36% the last month. How do you get back? Gated manual. B-12. Exactly. Anyway, door handles used to be simple. Now they are another piece of technology that can fail. Drivers are finding that they wish the smart technology in their cars was just a bit

dumber. Automakers have added new features in 2020s that go beyond touch screens, assisted driving systems and companion phone apps. Some vehicles come with infrared night vision, some seasonal ambient light lighting at interior fan cams that show rear passengers. That's obviously for kids. But many drivers say it's too much. the share that had positive feelings about intuitiveness of their car controls fell from 79% in

2015 to 56% in 2024. The perfect car, the perfect car was the Porsche 9-11, the 997 generation manual, sit inside. It's, you know, relatively high-performance vehicle. It's not a track star or anything like that, but it's, you know, it's sporty, it's fun. It's not, there's nothing over the top or anything like that. everything is just like ultra utilitarian everything's super solid you can leave it in the sun forever nothing's going to happen to the seats it's a perfect car and today you have a situation where i actually have a funny story about that i i bought the car on bring a trailer uh during in 2021

sold it at a profit like a couple years later but took eith for it inside a buddy who It was like, would you like, can I like buy it like with ETH? I was like, yeah, sure, fine. ETH drop like 20% to 20%. So I basically round trip back to the original purchase price. But to compare that to today, the one of the most annoying, like the most annoying thing about my cars are the smart features. So the G63, there's this feature where when I turn it on, it automatically has the lane keeping assist, they call it. Sure.

Which you have to manually turn off every single time, which is like a small. It's so weird. Normally you turn it on. No, it's default on. And it is a truly terrible feature. You're driving. And I drive. I'm in Malibu.

So to get out of Malibu, I have to take these sort of like one or two lane, you know, canyon roads. And so if you go slightly off of the road, it breaks like one of the wheel. Like it's this very weird experience where it just sort of like has this breaking effect. that just slams you back onto the road, and it's the most jarring experience. It's never when you actually would want it. And then the other thing is you have to turn on the,

you have to turn off the thing that shuts the engine off when you're at a stoplight. And that's like, you know about this. This is like the EPA rules where new cars have to have this feature. Also, if you put your car in sport mode, you now the EPA requires that when you start the car, it starts in eco mode or like comfort mode.

It can't start in the most aggressive mode. Yeah, you used to be able to start a 9-11. in sport mode and just leave it at that dial. We used to be a proper country. We used to be a proper country. I think the real, the real sad thing here is that, you know, a lot of the premium features have trickled down. You know, you get like heated and cooled seats and like a Hyundai these days, but some of the

really important features have not trickled down. I'm talking about, you know. Doors that go up. Doors that should be standard. That should be standard in Honda. Also, the champagne fridge in the back of the Rolls Royce with the champagne flute things. it grabs them so that as you're going around a corner, your champagne flute doesn't fall over. They should be available in a Honda Civic.

And for some reason, it hasn't made it. But yeah, they're almost on safety features. I agree. Yeah. I agree. Anyway, people are having problems with battery electric vehicles. Owners of EVs reported their door handles being difficult to open at a rate of 3.1 problems per 100 vehicles up from point two. bad. It's like your door should always open unless you have a G-wagon. Well, then it's hard to close, right? It's not hard to open. Yeah. That's the real tell. The real tell is if anybody has spent time in L.A. is if they know how to close a G-wagon door.

For those who have to really slam it. You have to really slam it. Guys out there, you know, if she knows how to close a G-wagon door, just focus on yourself. Focus on yourself. We've changed door handles from being a problem-free experience to now they pop up. out whenever the owner approaches and we're seeing all these problems. Yeah, all, all good reasons to get out. Yeah, this is super annoying. I walk out of my garage. Yeah. And my, like, my 9-11 just like completely like turns on. Like it throws the lights on. It throws like the handle open. I'm like, I'm just grabbing the mail. Yeah. Relax. It just knows you there. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. You know, and this is the same thing with smart homes today where I have, yesterday. Yeah. I hit the remote for my blinds in my kitchen and it didn't

didn't move. I'm like, oh great. I'm pressing it again. I'm like playing around with the remote. Yeah. I finally like walked like close to it and it worked. But I was like I was just not, my blinds were just going to be down until I could find somebody that like specializes in smart homes to just come over and like figure out what's broken. And I'm like that's so annoying versus just like going like i i i think i'm very bullish on the sort of analog home experience of like you know you flip a switch yeah you have a you know something that doesn't need batteries that you can like change the heater you know i don't need a remote for my fireplace right it's not like i'm not in my bedroom being like i really want to like you know turn on my fireplace like there's something

beautiful about analog products yeah this is somewhat of a boomer take but i think that i think that there is something real about like technology introducing more friction over time And it's been captured in some sci-fi. Like, I don't know if you've seen, well, you probably haven't seen, Fifth Element or Demolition Man, but they both paint a picture of the future where basically like all the smart features

are like very inconvenient. And so, Sylvain is like in Demolition Man getting like fined every time he swears and there's like, he can't get like salt or anything like that. Yeah, we should implement that. Except we'd get boring quickly. And then Fifth Element,

he lives in this like pod and it like deploys like, Like, you have been, you have three points left. It's like a super connected world. And like, he's like trying to quit smoking and gives him like one cigarette out of this like disposer and stuff. It's very funny. Anyway, great movies.

You should see a film sometime. Jordy. I'll watch one. You should watch a movie for your first movie. That would be big for you. I have been enjoying the new White Lotus. Oh yeah. I'm caught up.

Very cliche to watch. But it's just enjoying the first. Everybody was like, okay, the first few episodes were boring. Yeah. And then last night's really got deranged. You know, the dad is developing that sort of like drug addiction. Yep. The mom is also, you know, and it's just all like, you can tell it's just like starting to fully unwind.

Yeah. I find that like, somebody was asking me like, oh, like, was a good episode and I was kind of like. You mean just starting in the middle? Oh, no, no. No, no, no. Like, so like, yeah, the really deranged way to watch white letters. Just watch random episodes. No, no, like, like, because I, I hadn't watched any.

and then I was in Tahoe and had some free time away from kids, so I catch up, I watched the first three, then episode four premieres, I watch it and a friend asked me, how is episode four? And I say, like, oh, I thought it was great.

Like, it's the same as all of them. Like, does it, but does anything happen? Because people are saying, like, it's a little slow.

And I was like, it kind of happens at the same rate in every episode. But more importantly, it's just such a lovely place to like hang out. It's like beautiful. It's intriguing. It's chaotic. There's like all these little,

vignettes. Like, I don't need there to be like some really major plot point. That's why Succession was such a hit. It was allowing people to be immersed in your everyday lifestyle. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, White Lotus is like basically about the Amman, right?

Yeah. It's like the base over like four seasons. Yeah, they haven't actually done it at an Amman. Yeah, they've done it at four seasons, I think. It's that level of. But that's like the vibe. And so it's a very funny way to poke fun. The guy who wrote White Lotus actually went to my high school, Mike White.

Very cool. Yeah. We should have them on. Talk about that'd be cool. Business of White Lotus. Did you guys overlap? No. Come on.

He's like 50 now or something. Okay. This guy's like a Hollywood legend. Like he's not like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And you think I'm old, but I'm not that old.

Come on. I mean, all right. He directed School of Rock, which I'm sure you haven't seen. But came out in like mid-2000s, you know? I've seen School of Rock. That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a class. Yeah, the teacher in there based on my Latin teacher.

I actually, so really? Yeah, that's cool. Magistra Wicum. I would go to rock band camp every summer. Yeah. And it was basically that. Would you play? I would guitar and I would sing.

Oh, really? Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you blast like a lick on the guitar? Yes. Yeah. Because we've been talking about soundboard.

Maybe we'd just get you a guitar and like whenever we want to sound effect. I could actually have it just strapped up always here and just be. Yeah. Just like when a founder comes on and they were interviewing them. and you just want to play the, you know, I have the size gong. I play the gong on the show. You play the guitar. I had one moment that I'll always remember.

We do this rock band camp and there's all this prep. And then at the end of the summer, you play this like live performance for all of your extended, you know, all the other kids in camp and all this stuff with your band of five people. And our lead singer, I was a backup singer. Our lead singer didn't show up for the performance. Like got cold feet because it was this big group. And I had to like go founder mode for the band. I had to sing it, but it was like, it was like a foreign person singing like Western karaoke. Sure, sure, sure.

The right sounds, but like didn't quite. I just like didn't. I didn't, you know, I was like five minutes beforehand that I just figured out. Oh, well. Yeah. I think we need a guitar on set. No, I've been playing a lot of, I've been playing a lot of like dinosaur themed renditions. Cool.

Of like, picture like John Mayer meets dinosaurs playing it for my son. Yeah, that's great. They've been hits. Do you, do you know enough like power chords? it's just to like jam and it sounds like vaguely like Blinkwine 2 or something like that. Yeah, yeah. You know how you know like the basic and then you can just like working together. That's great.

Like the Suzuki method more or less. Yeah. Yeah. I play piano but I only learned like how to play like the sheet music. So I need to see. You got two into the symphony. So for you it was more euphoric to just be immersed in it. Exactly.

To even play the notes yourself. Exactly. You could have been a conductor. Another great. I mean, I named my dog after a conductor, Gustavo Dudemel. Really? Yeah. That's great.

His Instagram handle is real Gustavo Doudemel. It's great. And people get confused. John's dog had more followers. And the conductor of the, he used to be the conductor, L.A.F. Gustavo Doudemal is aware of the dog. Because people will see the dog because the dog has like almost as many followers as the actual conductor because I grind it up the account to like 20K.

And the conductor had like 100 at the time. And so like people would like let him know. And we were all in L.A. So we'd run into people and be like, oh yeah. like that's the dog. What do you ever say? I'd love to have your dog. Yeah.

What do you ever say? What do you ever say? I'd love to have your, I'd love to have your dog, Gustavo, in attendance. Yes. We considered, we considered bringing him. We had season tickets for a while.

We got to go back. It's right down the street from the capital of capital, the fortress of finance. Disney Hall. I think, I think we both came to the conclusion that this, this next boystrip. This article is not that interesting.

It's not that interesting. I agree. Anyway, Let's move on to some posts, some timeline, and some ads, of course. I know that's what you've really been waiting for. The advertisements, just because it's a DOM episode means it doesn't mean we're not going to do some ads. Come on, people. Tyler says, this is a really deep understanding how VC works tweet.

The headline is, cursor raises hundreds of millions at 10 billion. Are these investors visionary or crazy? That is because we intuitively assume that those investors lose money if cursor is ultimately worth less than $10 billion, but that's not true. They just don't make money to get to the point, to get to the point where investors actually lose money, the company's valuation needs to fall below the amount raised. So if you're investing in this round, here are your outcomes. Curser exits at greater than $10 billion, you make money. Curser exits at greater than $300 million to $10 billion. You get your money back. Curser exits at under $300 million, you lose your money.

from a decision-making perspective, that changes the discussion from, is this worth $10 billion to what is the likelihood that this is worth $20 to $50 billion in a few years? And to be clear, that's good. I think it's a very good thing for us to have risk capital that is both clear-eyed and focused on the potential for growth. And then there's some assumptions here. What do you think, Jordi, why'd you like this? It's a good breakdown of the cursor deal.

I mean, I'm not sure a lot of people know about Pratt, but you can break it down. Founders understand this. because they've run the calculus. I mean, Jeremy was on last week and was talking about this. They don't usually run the calculus until series A or B. Yeah. I find. No, but I mean, they intuitively understand, okay, you raise $10 million.

You got to return that first. For $10 million, you're going to make $0. Yep. And Jeremy talked about this last week, talking about founders that have $10 million of ARR, but they raise $200 million. And they're growing at 30%, which means that they could grow for another five years sell the company and still make zero dollars, right? Unless you get really creative. Like there are plenty of stories with aqua hires where the investors get host and the founders

get really like egregious pay packages. Yeah. At big companies. And a lot of funds are really upset by that depending on their structures. Some funds don't care because they're like, yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, okay, yeah, we wrote down 10 million, whatever. Yeah. Like we're just happy for you to go on to the next thing. Call us when you leave and get your earn. out and do the next thing. Yeah. But it's, but it's,

but it's, but it is, it is risky and yeah, and, and usually, usually I would say it's, it's, it's the employees that are most

frustrated by that because they're like, structure they're not. Well, sure, but I'm just saying, uh, I know a situation of a very high profile company that's sold in 2021. Mm-hmm.

And the, the price of the acquisition was like way too low for the traction of the company. Yep. But the CEO got the, this like ridiculously large like incentive package at the new company and all the CEOs like didn't even get all the employees most of the employees didn't get the opportunity to join the acquire and so they were frustrated because they're like we worked all this time for this equity and then yeah you

are the only one that got the everyone just has to feel like it's fair yeah and and and there but I thought this was worth I thought this was worth highlighting of people like everybody's trying to pick a part oh is cursors revenue durable it's it's so easy to switch off yeah yeah you've got YC partners like promoting windsurf. Sure. All this stuff. And this is the right framework to be, you know, it sounds like Thrive and Kushner are doing this new round. Hasn't been formally announced yet.

But it's not so crazy to price it that way. And it's possible that cursor, I would imagine cursors in a position where they don't need money. So they're saying if you want to own a piece of this company, you've got a pay. This is the case. And if you're investing in this company and you think you get a two or three X on this, if you're putting in $300 million, it's a great, it's a great, it's not necessarily a slam dunk, grand slam venture return, but you're going to return potentially hundreds of millions of dollars off of a single investment. And it's, and your downside is, is relatively protected if you think

that cursor in a bare case scenario could sell for $300 million. And I would argue that, I would argue that, I would argue that there's a lot of companies on earth that even if cursor's revenue dropped dramatically, they would say we'll pay $300 million because you have great tech and we can integrate it. You want a new GitHub co-pilot 2.0 basically. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. I mean, there's a bunch of scenarios where it could work out

if they're just printing money and they just keep growing the business and they get to high EBITDA. Like they get trade it you know, I don't know, 10x EBITDA and get up to yeah, you know, a couple hundred million in EBITDA and be good. Yeah. It's not that crazy. And then yeah, also all, like every

hyperscaler might need. something that looks like this if they're doing a lot of development or or or running a you know you think like this could fit into a to be a to bs and the a tovus tech stack it could replace github and be github 2.0 or copilot 2.0 I don't know. It's certainly a high valuation but um exciting for the team that built it and very cool we won't know the truth and unless we have the fullness of size going moment. Size going moment let's give a cheers for the cursor team. Cheers. Let's down this. Jory come down it. I don't know. I'm going to keep nursing it here.

The brother. The brother. Well, let's go to flow. Peer pressure. Do it. Great. Flo Crivellio says, just bought 50,000 flower seeds on Amazon and going to throw them all over the place in San Francisco.

Just a heads up in case you're wondering why everything is suddenly so fragrant and beautiful. It'll be me. It'll be all me. Amazing. I put this in for you, John. This is very cuging coated. Totally. This is what you live for.

Yes. We want to elevate people that are making the world the more beautiful place, whether you are putting flowers everywhere or putting up swings everywhere. Yes. You know, go repave the road. Yeah. If you're upset with the road in front of your house,

just hire private contractors to just pave it. Do it yourself. Get some cement out there. Do it. No, I think smell is underrated in terms of the evaluation of a particular neighborhood. I've noticed that Beverly Hills smells very nice, but deafening noise pollution from all the Lamborghinis.

and M5 competitions. You might have something to do with that. Yeah. No, it's a lot of kids clearly driving like exorbitant sports cars. Yeah, it's very impressive. It's their daily driver to school with GD3R.

And I do think, yeah, I mean, we were talking about the EPA earlier. Maybe we do need, you know, some quiet modes. Yeah, but if you can put up enough flowers on either side of the road and deathen that down. Do GMO flowers to get them the size of trees? That'd be great. They could really dampen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. or maybe just, you know, upgrade from the event doors and the hurricanes to 19 spiders. Because it's hybrid. You can drive it in an electric only mode. That's great. A lot of the new hypercar, supercars, they have an electric drive chain. So they're hybrid. So you can drive them quietly until you get up into the canyons, nobody cares.

Then you can rip. Thank you, Flo, for your work. Thank you, Flo. I'm excited to see how that pans out. Visit SF and see the flowers. Let's go to Kyle Harrison with some new. service Titan is at a 7.95 billion market cap. This is an $8 billion company that started as software for garage door repair people. Tam is almost always a terrible reason to pass.

So a little more for you. In college, I wanted to move to L.A. I was working on what became my first company. And I was barely making money at the time. I was making like a couple grand a month. And it was like senior year. I was like, I don't know if I can actually sort of scale this to the point where I can like pay for rent and food and all the stuff. So I interviewed at Service Titan. First interview went well. Second interview thought it went well. They rejected me. And I'm sure I would have done actually very well if I'd, I mean, obviously I wouldn't have stayed in the wage cage. In the wage cage. No, just financially. Just financially if I just stayed there. Yeah. But I won in the end because that turned, you know, what I was working on turned into

a business that does millions of dollars in revenue to this day. So, um, your loss, service titan. Yeah. But I'm glad, though. I'm glad they are building, you know, great software for garage door repair people. And I believe they're in L.A. here. Uh, they are. They're in L.A. and Glendale. Yeah. So right around. Yeah. And great name. Like really aggressive name. I love it. Anyway, let's move on to an ad. We got an ad from ad quick. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising only ad quick combines technology out-of-home expertise and data to enable efficient seamless ad buying across the globe let's go get yourself a billboard on ad quick okay so speaking

speaking of that company yeah uh ted turner founder of cnn started by running his father's out-of-home ad business it was basically like ad quick but they owned who easy there john but uh instead of that ad quick uh doesn't own the underlying inventory there's sort of software like player on top of it, but Ted Turner's dad had started an out-of-home advertising network that Ted Turner took over. And the reason I know that is because I was listening to the Founders podcast episode this morning because Reggie posted about Ted Turner on Friday. And Reggie had said, and this post analysis is brought to you by AdQuick, obviously. He said, I've been researching the 80s a bit as a comparison for viewing the world today.

I feel like Ted Turner is such an interesting character. founder of CNN, which was the start of the 24-7 news cycle. We restarted it for tech. Genuinely, a futurist in many ways, my favorite quote from him, we won't be signing off until the world ends. We'll be on and we will cover the end of the world live. And that will be our last event. But the thing is, he actually made a video made for the last broadcast ever,

known as the Turner Doomsday video. It was leaked by an intern and posted on YouTube. That's amazing. We got to watch that on the stream. We should make our own Doomsday video. We should. And it's just us popping hundreds of bottles. Not even drinking them.

Just like, hey, we had the stockpile. It's the dobsday. We don't need it anymore. Yeah, what an interesting thinker to do that. I wonder if there's anyone else who's filmed a doomsday video intact that hasn't leaked. Like, is there a Zuck Doomsday video or Elon Doomsday video or Sam Altman Doomsday video? It's out there. Brothers, if you're an intern, go find it and leak it.

Go find it and leak it. Put it on YouTube, please. We love it. We'll cover. your cost of living until you can get rehired by, you know, the next bean air that you're going to leak their doomsay video. That's great. Let's move on to Antonio Garcia-Martinez.

The hardest to acquire and most exclusive watch in the collection, almost three years in the making and says, thank you for being a part of the base team. This custom Seco watch designed by our creative team honors, precision, reliability, and motion, qualities that define base and drive us forward. It's automatic movement winds with every step, a symbol of the momentum we're building together. Here's to the work we've done. And to 2025, it's time to bring the world on chain. That's great. I love it. Inspired by, do we still have? Oh, the Excel watch that said it's time to. Oh, it's time to create shareholder value. Yeah. Yeah. It's time to bring the world on chain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A time piece is great.

No, I was wondering. I'm my, I got to, we got to ask Quaid at Bezell. Was this factory or is this they just bought it and then they just redid? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you can swap out the dial and just kind of upgrade that. But of course, go to. Bezell. Go to getbezzle.com. Get a luxury watch. Get a Seco. Get a grand Seco. Get anything. Get an FB joined. We've been looking at, we've been looking at pot tech chronograph stopwatches. Oh yeah. Because we want something. We want to time the show. We want to time the show and just looking at your computer clock. Over 20,000 luxury watches fully authenticated by Bezels' in-house team. Highly recommend installing the app, surfing, finding,

something great to add to your collection. In Tahoe this weekend saw a lot of Apple watches really, really harsh the mood, I would say. Yeah. It would be much better to see something more fitting of that, of that echelon of society. Yeah, if you're skiing to where your nicest watch? What do you need Apple Watch for?

When I was in Switzerland, just before New Year's, I saw a guy that just got back from skiing and he took off his gloves and he had this like, I think it was the orange, the orange aquanaut. Oh, nice. That Alex Park rocks. And I was like, that's great. You know, go out skiing. I love it. You know, with a six figure watch on. Shows confidence in your abilities. It's great. Where is this second post? We got a lot of posts in here. We got to go through. Let's just do this one. Mount Rushmore at Suns. Let's go. I just want to just celebrate Mount Rushmore.

At sunset. Here we go. Is this a real picture? It almost looks. Yeah. Yeah, it is generated. It is. Do you have this one, Ben?

But we got to make a new Mount Rushmore. We got to need more monuments. A lot of Gil. Where is your Rushmore? We got to do a statue of liberty on the East Coast. What was it? Statue of Justice on the West Coast. Replace Alcatraz with a

massive statue. I love Mount Rushmore. You've been? I haven't been. We should go. We should. We should set up. So I'd really like to get a mobile studio, but like set up more like one of those

phone booths where the truck like drops it off and then leaves. So we're just sitting there right in front of Mount Rushmore recording with a nice view of it. Be great. And if the police come, we'll just lock the doors and just keep podcasting as long as we have an internet connection. Yeah. I mean, just so cool to go blow up some mountains

and make some faces. So much fun. Anyway, the story that I want to talk about was Orca. Orca is an energy water. Launched by this guy, Michael Moriati. 13 months ago, he put up this idea.

And it's now live and available 150 milligrams of caffeine, zero calories, zero sugar. And he posted 13 months, four failed production runs. and more stress than we ever imagined, all for the clear can worth it, question mark. And gift of trees.

It's out to be clear. We covered this last week. Oh, last week we did? Remember this is launch video of the guy from high school musical that was just reading out the science. Very creative. Very creative. It's very fun.

But he's getting dunked on here by gift of trees of draught of barrel. Doesn't sound like that person has a LinkedIn, but we'll read it anyway. the clear plastic PET beverage can patent was granted in 2015 to a Polish packaging manufacturing company. This dude did nothing but pay a beverage contract packer to license the patent and fill it with liquid designed in the co-packers lab. And yes, that is exactly true. That's how you launch a new consumer package goods product these days. You go to a copacker, have them make it. He made the interesting choice of using the clear plastic can, which I want to talk to you about because on the one hand,

it really, this really does stand out on the shelf. And you could imagine seeing this and, and it would just look different than Celsius Red Bull, you know, monster where they're all aluminum cans. But at the same time, plastic could not be less cool right now.

So what's your take? So I've seen Michael working on this for a long time. Yeah. I think he's got good instinct and taste. I think the marketing's been great. I think the packaging looks cool. I think the concept of just a clear-ish energy water. Like energy water, like conceptually is just cool.

As opposed to like this like nuclear fuel-looking Red Bull. It's a green and like it's like, what am I drinking? So energy water is super cool. Yep. I do believe the actual formulation is difficult to get to the point where it's zero calorie and it tastes good and it's not filled with a bunch of insane additives. Yep. I looked at this entire thread, gift of trees of draught of barrel.

by intractable lion. Yes. And he's a massive hater against people that are not. So I actually looked at the backstory. So he runs sideries. Oh, okay. Yeah. So he restores these sort of legacy orchards that have been run down.

It's like super trap. So it's like the most craft process, not even making the liquid, but making the barrels. Making the trees. Making the trees. He is just sitting in the orchard. So he's... The gift of trees and draught a barrel. Of course.

The gifts of trees and draw to brand. So I'd like to have this guy on the show to talk about the business of bespoke sidery. That sounds interesting. But he's a huge hater on this guy, Michael, for no reason. Yes, I agree. It's Michael didn't say, I invented the clear plastic. No. He said, yeah, if you're making a caffeinated caffeine has a super bitter taste. Totally.

Yeah, you have to iterate on stuff. You've got to iterate on stuff. on it. Yeah, it's a good thing that they didn't just use the first version that they produced. And so this is actually a much longer thread where gift of trees have drawn of barrel is just hating on this guy super hard. And I don't. Just don't buy it. Yeah, yeah, just don't buy it. It's fine. You don't have to buy it. And I think that Michael will be dramatically more commercially successful. And gift of trees of draught of barrel is upset. I don't know about that. Is this. really a long short trade right now. Who knows? Maybe they both are successful. I'm going long. I'm going long. Orca. Orca. I would not invest in gifts of trees of drought and barrel. I don't know, man.

I think there might be something to this. He scales this up. Maybe he starts putting the cider in plastic bottles. Yeah, maybe honestly, here's what I'd like to see. Collabor. Work it out. Both come on the show. Yep. We'll negotiate a JV. A joint venture. Yeah. And you guys can collab. Maybe you can finds success. Sondering plastic models. Exactly what the world needs. Bring the science project with the trad-based stuff together.

It's a match made in heaven. Everyone can be happy. But Michael does respond and he says, I wish it had been that easy. We didn't invent the can. We spent 13 months figuring out how and who could actually fill them at scale. At every step, we were told just to switch

to a normal can. Every canning line in the country is built for aluminum. Nothing was plug and play. And so, yeah, like it is hard at work even to just put something in a can that exists or is patented because the manufacturing supply might not be there. And this is the, you know, the unfortunate, like,

struggle and the schlep of getting a consumer product to, uh, to, to, to market. I mean, you, I'm sure you went through with Rora where you're like,

okay, there's like a million different manufacturing decisions to make. Yeah. And we want to maintain our brand values and what we're doing. No, there's, there's, and there's a bunch of tradeoffs and stuff.

I distinctly remember when, uh, my co-founders, Brian and Charlie, we got the, visual that looked almost identical to this and then there were still like 10,000 decisions to be made and both brian and charlie were just like you know incredibly in the weeds on every single one they're all very high stakes and you know there's so many small setbacks and things like that so uh that that's the beauty of the reason that beverage attracts so many sort of new entrepreneurs

is that it's a super tangible idea of i can see it in my head yeah i can put the right ingredient in the can and then I'm going to sell it. Yep. And it's just so much harder. It's a widget's business. Yeah. But at the same time, it, for a long time, software was super like high status because it was so complicated you had to understand C++ or Java or Python and deployment and AWS and servers

and all this stuff. And now it's been like, oh, well, you can vibe code a flight simulator in a day, but it takes 13 months to put caffeine in a can. Yeah. It's like kind of weird, but we're kind of flipping. And this is like the Bits and Adams thing. bits just move faster. Yep.

So good luck, Michael. Send us some product. You see this. No, but I actually, I love to taste faster. There's a, my wife invested in a company. Yeah.

That at like a five cap. Yep. That put olive oil in a plastic bottle. Yep. And it's up 50x in like two something years. Great. And so just something as simple as, you know,

as sort of in this case, novel product, energy water in a new form, in a new bottle. It's very possible. This is wildly successful. It's funny seeing him gripe about production because wait until you try and go into retail, buddy. It's going to be a million times. Because you have to change. No, no, no, no. Oh, you're just saying retail generally. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like actually getting retail distribution on this is going to be a thousand times more frustrating. Not that he can't do it and it won't be difficult, but it's going to be a lot more just unreasonable. Basically, you have to pay us to put this on our show. Oh, totally. Like, every deal is bespoke and you're competing with Alani New and Celsius

and Red Bull and they all have monopolies and they all want, hey, we want to keep our Yerba Mata on the shelf and you're competing against every other company. And that's really where the game is won. Like Graza, the olive oil company, has won because they're in every store now. I'm sure they're doing great on e-commerce, but that company is not a 50x return. They don't figure out retail and retail is hard and a slap and it's something that is probably going to be make these four failed production runs look like the easy mode. Anyway, good luck to you, Michael and send us some. We'd love to, we'd love to try it. Should we go to Max Meyer? Before that, I'd like to do a promoted ad. Let's do it. So we have from Jose,

high class and tasteful. And he doesn't even do any type of review. He just, does the headline, which is high class and tasteful, five stars, and he jumps right into the ad, which is very aggressive. Yeah, what is this? But potentially a smart move because most people have been putting it. So he says, variable and early stage company, HQ'd in Dallas, helps manufacturers scale efficiently with a flexible on-demand labor model. This gives U.S. manufacturers a competitive edge over China without relying on AI sweatshops

or bloatware staffing platforms like Trauma. He's taking shots. Mike's a friend of the show. but, you know, sometimes attack ads are effective. Variable optimize your labor eliminates low or OT work, boost productivity and tracks key metrics, visit VariableOps.com and tell them to give Jose a raise. So he's just taking the initiative. He's just not the founder, but he's getting out there.

So I'm going to go there and just tell them to give Jose a raise, even though I don't think we're qualified unless we need to get, unless we need to get Ben. Yeah, we're going to test drive that product. Ben, where are you? Oh, he's there. And one more review while we're at it. This is hard power, soft beliefs in my review of technology brothers. TBPN is the seminal technology podcast of our day. John and Jordy exemplify the human desire to create and contribute to a product that is bigger than the self, a devotion to the aesthetic.

And for that, I'm grateful to the brotherhood. This five-star review is brought to you by Techno Republic on X, a new project that shares the best quotes and ideas from Alexander Karp's book, The Technological Republic. Follow Techno Repub on X today to join your fellow brothers building the future of the West. Very cool. I'm going to go follow this right now. Fantastic. And thank you for the review. And while you're doing that, we'll move over to Max Meyer. Also another publisher similar to Alex Garb. Actually works with another Palantir co-founder. over at AVC. Max Meyer says,

airports these days are the perfect picture of American affluenza. The U.S. upper-ish class has too much money, but never enough. Lots of suspicious pre-borders. Teens in designer clothes. $500 headphones muttering what to flight staff. There are like 50 people in boarding group one now as well. You can see the confusion on people's faces who've clearly been boarding first for a while, who now wait 20 minutes standing.

just to have their spot in line. The lounges are overrun. And again, you can see the exasperation on the faces of people waiting for them, thinking they paid for a service and realizing that now it's like Disneyland, prices across the board have gone up and demand keeps up. This is one of the main effects of mass affluence, I guess. Airline taxes are as high as ever, and as a result, actual budget flights a la Ryanair are not allowed. At this point, a budget flight is anything under $300. People are amazingly unforgiving. They get violent looks in their eyes when staff announced that overhead bin space will run out.

For many flyers, being asked to check a bag is like being asked for one of their kidneys. So many people look at children like their rodents that have infiltrated the house, rather than our treasures and our futures. He's such a good writer. Parents are the scapegoat of every flight. Funny enough, the TSA feels like the one thing that has gotten better. Maybe I choose my airports and flying times well, but I don't remember the last time I waited more than 15 minutes to get through. Sometimes the clear line is comically longer than the regular line next to it.

And for whatever reason, people will just not move over to the shorter line. It's pretty rare to see actual brawling, but you do hear about those things. As a writer and Chronicle of America, this entropy interests me. Yeah, interesting. Basically an ad for private jets. I completely agree with you, Max. everyone should be flying in a G650 ER ideally maybe a rare we're going to have that we're going to have that yeah super intelligence yes that's one of the things Sam Altman's gone on record he said exactly

if Moss is able to do this round yes post a GII everyone has a private jet obviously yeah so problem solved soon max don't worry figure allegedly is training their robots to build PJs oh that'd be great actually you won't even need to yeah and mine the ore needed to oh create the jet so you buy your figure for 20 grand. It'll actually build you a Gulfstream. And that's coming in 12 to 18 months, right? Yes. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Just just after the IPO. Yeah, just after the next fundraise. Yeah. It'll be here. Great. Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. Um, let's move on. Avi Schiffman, back on the show. We got to have him on live soon. He says, company should shut down when the founder leaves. Pretty good take. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

Ben Thompson has an interesting take on this. And they, and they should, if the founder passes away, they should just, like it should shut down in solidarity. In solidarity? Dead man switch.

If I die, my company goes with me. No, I mean, Ben Thompson has a take on this, which is basically like, like, companies do not need to go on forever.

So it's actually okay for a company to be in kind of its late stage and just dividend all the profits until it's like done. This is kind of what's happening with like the cigarette companies. Like literally no one is, no one,

like new smokers are not emerging. the market is shrinking. They just increase the price on the reducing customer base. And over time, they make the same amount of revenue, but their cash flows are steady. And so they're just going to like whittle down basically. And they all have plans of like, oh, we'll get into the new markets, but none of them are doing that well in the new alternative market. And so a lot of people are just like, well, they dividend a lot. They pay out. And so, you know, if you have, you know, ultra is a hundred billion dollar company. If you invest right now and you get 150, billion dollars in cash return to you over the next five years or something. Like that could be a good

that could be a good deal even if the value of the stock is zero at the end. Like it's fine. Yeah. So I think I think I'll be dropping these. Uh, they're thought provoking. Totally. And I think there's some value to that. Yeah. It's fun. Good poster. Um, Tim Sussman says, we invested in a YC startup a week ago. Their revenue growth was so high, it would have been crazy to ignore it. Just saw them an alumni demo day. They doubled their revenue in the past week. Let's go.

That's exciting. We're very, oh yeah. And it cheers. Let's size gong that. Let's cheers the Domperignon. And we have some YC news that we'll be sharing. We will be at demo day in just a few days.

I was going to say we're going to share it tomorrow. We'll be there. We're going to announce what we're going to be doing there in tomorrow, I guess. But let's move on to, windsurf sharing a video from YC from their light cone podcast Jason so Winsurf says not every day you wake up to a shout out from Ycombinator Jared Freeman explains why founders are switching to Winsurf

is Winsurf a YC company or are they just like loved by YC I don't know what to figure it out the fact that the partner was coming out and taking such a strong stand makes you think anyway Jason Lemkin says brutal competition always comes to software. Partners become competitors, collaborators compete. Usually it takes a few years, though, to get real. AI is accelerating at the pace, an order of magnitude in coding and contact center already. Huh.

I can't really understand that. Will it do the same to your category? Interesting. So, yeah, I mean, I don't even understand. A lot of people were pushing back on this saying, If you don't think that cursor indexes your codebase, you haven't used it. Indexes your codebase? Oh, like pulls it in as like training data?

I mean, there's just like layers and layers to this fight right now. There's like the cursor versus windsurf debate, but then there's also the cursor versus Claude code debate that's happening. Yeah. Will it all commoditize? Who knows? Yeah. Anyway, a lot of gills in the gondow, wondering if he should get some curls and Zinn in.

He also really wants a mustache. This place may have changed me forever. I love when a new size Lord Capital Allocator takes the Gundo tour. Augustus took them around, I'm sure. Introduce him to everyone else. A little bit of a controversial post because he spells Z-N wrong. It's Z-Y-N. Hit him with that.

And also in the Gundo, man, I mean, this is like the highest penetration place in the world for Lucy. So Zin's kind of out there. You've got to get on the next generation of products when it comes to nicotine. But you should do some curls and some bench press. And you should, you know, basically just wind down your podcast, become a size lord, become a mass monster and go for your IFBB ProCard. I've met you once. And I think you have it. It's got what it takes.

I think you get diced. Get big. And do the Mount Rushmore or the West. Yes. Next topic. My dear friend, my oldest friend called me last night. Okay. like long after I went to bed I go to bed very early so I saw it this morning and he just joined the chat on

YouTube and said hey Jordy he just called me and I told him I'm I'm live right now I can't talk and he said in the chat I wanted to let you know I got engaged oh wow congratulations let's cheers to Cody and his lovely fiancee Emily and congratulations Cody I love you and if we ever need a financial model he is the guy to go to. Right now we're just sort of vibe coding our finance, but absolute finance, Chad. Let's get him to do something. And congratulations.

Well, speaking of your early bedtime, we are sponsored by AIDS Sleep nights that fuel your best days, turn any bed into the ultimate sleeping experience. Go to 8Sleep.com slash TBPN and upgrade your sleeping experience. I was miserable the last two nights, honestly, at the Ritz Carlton, which not a bad hotel. They don't have eight sleep. and it was miserable.

It was not a fun experience. It really does ruin every other bed. So get one. Never travel ever again and just stay in your eight sleep forever. It truly is unbelievably good. It's so good. We highly recommend it. Check it out.

This morning, it was, so I woke up, 4.45. It's effectively 3.45, according to my brain. Yeah. It's completely, it's like, It's the dead of night. Yeah. And you know what I thought to myself?

I thought, thank God for 8Sleep.com slash TBPN. Yes. Where anybody can get $400 off night sleep. Yes. And get to experience the sort of warm, the warming effect in the morning. It really makes waking up so easy. It's crazy. And the vibration alarm clock?

I don't do that one. You got to try it. You got to try it. Yeah. It's subtle. I've tried it. I just, the warm works for me. It's subtle and it is...

It's a good option. It's fantastic. It's great. Well, anyway, go check it up. Let's move on to the Optify Kids. This is the YC company that was canceled briefly, but they're back. They created sweatshop software, essentially. That was the critique of them.

But they leaned in, they went direct, and they printed T-shirts that say, Justice for Worker 17. And Spore says the Optify Kids are going to be. going to be all right. They're having fun with it. They clearly realized that their first message didn't resonate. They turned it around and I cannot wait to talk to these guys because I think they're having fun and I love it. Yeah, we're going to talk to them Wednesday. Yeah, and it was great. So love, love justice for worker 17, creating a lot of fun on the timeline, a lot of, a great meme and still is just so funny that that happened all the back and forth. But they had a good time.

And I think they, I think this is the right way to handle it. They, they, they didn't. put out some groveling post saying like, we're sorry. They just like, they kind of took a breather. I think if anything, it will be helpful because every investor at the very least, we want to talk to them. I'm listening. At this point, for the novelty of talking to the,

yeah, the legends that made that video. The legends. And I mean, we talked about this before. Like there's so many things that you could tweak in that presentation and that software that would be beneficial. And I mean,

they created such a meme that someone built an Optify clone for, PMF or die. Which is fully functional. It's fully functional. You can go to PMF or die. Dot XYZ and see the productivity of the two guys that are in the cage right now, Blake and Patty. And so you can check it out.

And it's hilarious that somebody built that so fast. But I mean, it helps when they're live streaming constantly. Anyway, let's move on to another YC founder, an alum, one of the legends. Emmett Shear. He says, when I was CEOing at Twitch, One of the things I do every batch of interns was a very short presentation on the origins of the

company and then a Q&A. One of the questions is always, where should I work and what job should I get or should I start a company? And he goes on to say, it's an interesting question to try and answer for an intern I didn't really know because, of course, the actual answer is dependent on that person and their life. So I decided, so I had to figure out how to articulate the framework I used. First, there's money. Obviously you want money, but money is well known for diminishing return. debatable. After you have enough for rent and food and so on, so you don't want to optimize for cash. It's more of a constraint. Then there's prestige. How much will getting this job impress people? Prestige is mostly a trap for the same reason designer clothing brands are bad deals.

It's also debatable. Brand might make something less discerning people think better of you, but it won't actually make you better or better off. Power is also an offer, usually called impact and the chance to make a difference or mission. We like power because it feels good to wield the pure joy of throwing a stone in the lake and watching it splash. We need Emmett to write a book. Yeah. I mean, he's a great writer and really great points. What is your framework when someone asks you, where should I work or should I start a company? So general advice, generalized advice is probably one of the most dangerous things in the entire world. Yep. There's nothing. Yes, you can get advice and try to kind of general advice from somebody that you don't know and try

to apply it to your life. Everyone should have an eight sleep. Everyone should buy a watch on bezel. Everyone should be on public. Yeah, everyone should be on ramp. But I hear your point. Yes. And obviously advertise on adequate. But obviously. No, this is the thing. To me, the, the, the most important thing you can do in your 20s is develop a meaningful enough relationship with smart enough people whose lives you admire and only get advice from them. Like David Senra and Sean Frank are like two of the only people on earth that aren't immediate family or you that or Ben, our lovely producer Ben. But in general, like I only take sort of professional advice from a couple people in the

world because they understand my values. They know the things that I care about. They know what I want to optimize for. They know all these things. and they have a unique and earned perspective. And so it's much better to have one or two people and only get sort of professional advice from them. And that is the thing that has served me the best in life.

The best career decisions that I've made were in response to people like Sean Frank's advice, people like David Center's advice, and I can kind of pinpoint even the conversation. So ignore. Start a podcast. Yeah. like like um i think if you had a strong personal relationship with navarre yeah i'm sure he could give you really really really good advice yeah but just blanket you know taking his advice like you should

work like a lion and then somebody like works hard for two days and takes like two days off like don't do that you know like you need to sort of like take it yeah and process it and then ideally get the same advice from somebody that actually knows well i threw this post in here randomly but it seems like an answer to Emmett Shears post from Guillermo Rao over at Versaul. He says, in a world of infinite possibility, the alpha is in focus, quality, and depth. And that feels like the right level of like meta advice that is almost safe to apply to everyone. It's not go work at this specific company. Except if you're an investor and you're like, oh, I'm really into games and then somebody pitches you a CRM and then becomes Salesforce. Yeah. It's like you took the advice of,

Like, I'm just going to fall. Like, so, again, you can always apply these things. Focus, quality, and depth. Does that keep you from investing in, in Salesforce? Yeah, because you're saying, I'm going to be the best, I'm going to be the best investor. You're too focused on, like, I'm going to deliver the best returns. And I'm just going to focus on. Well, it depends on what you're focusing on.

You could be focusing on founders, right? Quality of businesses. Like, yeah, it doesn't necessarily need to be something as narrow as, I mean, focusing on a specific company or specific niche. Yeah. You're focusing on a, on an axiom of investing. But yes. I hear your point. Interesting. Well, let's go to another post about being young and doing great things.

Gabriel says, the only thing stopping me from doing great things when I was young was that I thought I was a moron. And there were too many people smarter than me. I still do. The only difference is that I realized everyone else is a moron as well. It's kind of a midwit meme. Yes. It was actually a huge unlock. Yes.

When I realized the bell curve of people is not that wide and being economically productive seems to come from what thoughts and insight about the world rather than genes. Interesting. Good one. Did we talk about ServiceNow at all? I don't think we have. Service Now is buying Moveworks, the AI platform for almost $3 billion. They were backed by Bain. Sysgong. Cliner. For the shareholders and Bain and Lightspeed and Kleiner and their LPs. Yeah. Great moment. Great moment. Great exit. Service Now is a company that I just don't know anything about. I mean, honestly, When we put this in the stack, I was like, I kind of got them confused with Service Titan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Service Now, Service Titan, like, we're doing two stories and the same thing. And this is a $160 billion company. But this one's much bigger than Service Titan. Service Titan's, what, $8 billion? It's a cloud computing platform for the creation and management of automated business workflows. Let's go. Buying a platform called MoveWorks, which is... Gundo bros, hate this.

Hate this one weird trick. Yeah. Make $100 billion dollars building B2B SaaS. Augustus. Somebody needs to do a wellness check on Augustus, Dorico right now. Yeah. Because honestly, somebody should go and do like a content warning, like tell Augustus. Yeah.

Hey, don't listen to this episode. Minute, you know. They're talking about, yeah, trigger warning Augustus. Trigger warning. Yeah, that's it. They're talking about service now. Be careful. You're going to be super depressed when you hear how much money people are making,

automating business processes. Yeah, well, that's the thing. Some people wake up and from a young age, they know they want to live life that allows them to deliver value through automating business processes using AI. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah.

It's their life's work. They're live players. My icky guy is automating business processes. You're laughing, but it's true. It's real. Some people love this. You're built for it. It's great.

Anyway, if you want to get on service now and the action, head over to public.com, investing for those who take it seriously. They have multi-asset investing. Industry-leading yields are trusted by millions. Of course, this is not financial advice, but it is the preferred platform of TPP. The technology brothers. So go check it out.

Anyway, let's move on to former brother of the week, Justin Mayors, profiled in none other than Forbes. Our favorite publication that we never say anything negative about. We love Forbes here. That's right. Eight years of hard work. Justin and Kettle and Fire have been featured in Forbes. Congratulations.

So to be clear, this was not a contributor piece that, you know, you can basically get for 20 bucks. This was a cover story. Cover story. Daily cover story. Let's go. Beautiful picture of Justin. It shows him. Yeah.

Looking fantastic. A bunch of the brothers in the community quoted this and, you know, said, said nice things. about him, but I just liked the boy who sold soup. The boy who sold soup. That's, that's, that is so good from John Fiel. Oh my God. The boy who sold soup. Incredible read.

So good. Here's the thing, though, Justin is, is incredibly hardworking and kind. Yeah. And it's fantastic. There's a reason he's a former brother of the week. Yes. And I, you know, some people have said to me, they don't know when I'm being sarcastic or when I'm being serious, not being sarcastic.

right now. Incredible human. It's a great guy. And I'm lucky to call him a friend. Yeah. And I can't wait for our episode. On Thursday when Justin joins, we're going to be talking about the hot topics in consumer health. We'll talk about who's making money on Maha, which I'm excited about.

Yeah. What the vibes are like at Mar-a-Lago, where he's been spending time. It's great. And of course, of course, the bone broth empire. Yeah. He's built. He made his money in Mawr. He's basically built a.

almost like I don't even say this ironically he almost has a monopoly on the bone broth he really does he really does because it's actually how much money is he making jordie a hundred a year let's go 100 million dollars that's their run rate I think they're probably well uh that that was when whenever you know I think they're probably well beyond that now it's a fantastic business he's a fantastic entrepreneur um we got a fantastic post from bucko capital bloke and I'm going to read this I read it. Dude, it's Jevin's paradox. It's literally Bommel's cost disease. A classic example of gal man's amnesia effect. Oh, that's the Monty Hall problem. It's orthogonal to Dutch disease. It's a prisoner. You're in prison. You're in prison. You're in prison. You're in prison.

You're in prison. It's great. Mental models. Trapped in the mental model. Trapped in a mental model. Trapped in a framework. You can't get out. Anyway, it's absolute banger. He's had some great post today. while we're at it, I'm going to pull. He was talking about the Redfin acquisition, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. I think that's the bottom of the stack. The bloke was... He says Redfin got acquired today.

Shout out to their CEO for one of the wildest things I've ever heard on an earnings call. The analyst on this earnings call for Redfin says, what if mortgage rates don't come down? Of course, this would be harmful to Redfin's business because they buy and sell homes. and when mortgage rates go down, people buy a lot of homes. And Glenn, the CEO says, which is a public company CEO. Do we censor any of this? I don't think so.

Glenn says, will drink our own urine or our competitor's blood stay in the foxhole? No, he says, great question. Plan B is drink our own urine or our competitors bought blood stay in the foxhole. I don't know if you remember, but our last hearing is called ended with a single line from a who song, won't get fooled again where I said we're not banking on low rates when other people have thought they might come down I don't know weird go Glenn he got out he sold the company

congrats to Glenn congrats guys gone for Glenn and uh yeah I love a I love a I love a I love a CEO dropping a hot take on an earnings call real you know don't have a lot of time to post when you're running a public company you got to get those bangers out in the earnings call and the analyst asks that's crazy they were they were trading Yeah, what was Rayfin Worth? Zill a competitor, right? Oh, wow. They were trading at like a quarter of their revenue.

Oof, rough. Yeah. Yeah. Tough, tough go. Anyway. But they got out. Yeah, they got out. Let's move on to Blake Anderson.

He's locked in the cage right now. But he says 10x will be a $100 million company within one year. He's manifesting. What's their error right now? They haven't launched yet. So they're still at zero. But they haven't spent much money. They're only a couple weeks into the cage.

and their goal, of course, is to hit $1 million in ARR in 90 days. And he's very confident about that. And he's confident that he will take it further, take it all the way to $100 million. All the way. So good luck to Blake. If you want to go check out what he's doing, go to pmf or die.com. Anyway, let's move on to, oh, Josh Wolf. He says, incredible leadership in the United Arab Emirates as a husband to his super successful

feminist in a male dominated world and father to two bold daughters. raised by my sacrifice at all single mom and grandma. Women have more rights in the UAE than some U.S. states. He's clearly fundraising, but I just want to take a second to say. The UAE is one of the greatest innovations in human rights in the world, and I think that everyone needs to acknowledge that at this point. Everything in the Middle East is fantastic, and I can't say enough good things.

And, you know, I really hope that everyone in the Middle East can come together. and support American financial markets more aggressively than ever before. What do you think, Tori? I agree, John. Fantastic. Let's move on to Gary Tam. You're not beating the fundraising allegations. Will started a rumor mill last week when he said he was leading around in TBPN.

It's, you know, there had been rumors that we had been in the Middle East. And so you're not really helping the rumor mill, John. But anyways, back to the show. We do what we have to do. Did you hear about the Simpsons producer who was forced to demolish his 24-year-old Simpson's inspired treehouse after the city of L.A. demanded he permanent like a single-family dwelling. Gary Tan says deregulate housing. Yes, in my backyard. And yeah, I couldn't agree. It is post-fires. It's more important than ever to reconsider how permitting is done. It's a treehouse and they wanted it to be ADA compliant. So they wanted it. a wheelchair ramp into the treehouse, which I think was probably impossible. So they made him tear it down. Very sad. And my problem with this is like, I am okay with, I'm okay with housing regulations and rules around how you build things because, you know, you don't want someone building some massive

structure that just falls over and destroys your house next to you. But you need high throughput approvals. And what I was, what I was kind of pitching was like, there should be a, CAD plugin where you design your structure and at every moment it's running the algorithm to say, is this approved or is this denied? And then you can just see, okay, everything's green, click print the plans, go build it. You're good. Yeah. Instead of, instead of, oh, we designed the blueprints and then we send them in and then month later, it comes back and they have one tweak and then another month and just goes back and forth and it's very annoying. And now is the time to fix housing. And Gary Tan has been a very vocal voice for

that. So we love it. We actually have a whole bunch of Gary Tan posts here. Let's go to the next one. He's quote tweeting someone who says, so I just simply asked Maness to give me the files. We already talked about this. And Gary, I don't know if you want to cover this, but he came to a similar conclusion, which is all the alpha is in prompting, custom prompting tool use and clever workflow and evils. Yeah. I can't wait for demo day. I'm sure we're going to see a lot of people adopting similar approaches to menoose, some people call it menoose, some people call it manis.

Minuse. The nominative determinism is that you will be hung by it. Yes. It's not great. Yeah, dark. Things got a little spicy

with the acquired podcast. They flew out to Taiwan. They interviewed TSM founder, Morris Chang. Legend, I've been calling for Morris Chang to go on Joe Rogan for years now. And it hasn't happened.

We saw Zuck go on. We saw Peter Thiel go on. We saw Naval Rob Con go on. Mark Andreessen's been on. I wanted Morris Chang to go on Rogan. Didn't happen. But fortunately, the good folks over at Acquired Podcast got it done. They flew out there.

They interviewed him. But Bunny Exchange, Gilbert says, TSM is essentially the only trillion dollar company in the world, not on the west coast of the United States. It is this incredibly important thing in the world. It's this unlikely success of grand scale. And Morris Chang cuts him off. and says, unlikely, in your opinion, and Gilbert says, I mean, you started it when you were 56. There are many things.

And Changsons in again and says, I'm not going to argue with you. I merely asked it, I merely asked as a point of curiosity. I didn't think that it was unlikely. Mogged. I love it. That's great. You go over to meet with a, what, 80-year-old founder, and he just tells you, I never had a doubt in my mind. Not for a second.

Not for a second. But, I mean, the acquired guys are doing fantastic. interviews and they are I mean I hope this sound bite goes viral or like there's more sound bites from the Morris Chang interview that go viral because there's that famous Jensen Wong interview that they did where there's that clip that goes viral where they're like if you had to go back and you had to do it all again would you do it and he's just like no I wouldn't do it it's been too hard it's been too miserable I don't like it it's bad like I'm here and check out my leather jacket yeah yeah it's a very very very funny interaction and they are and they obviously do a ton of research

on these companies so they show up extremely prepared and get great sound bites and so go check it out you can listen to the tsmc founder morse chang on the acquired podcast you can go to their youtube it's probably in their rsss speed as well okay um one more post and then um and before we do that last post i want to drink your champagne that's what you got to do before that next post i'm gonna stop myself at two because uh i we haven't finished the bottle yeah there's no rule about a dom there's no rule about a DOM episode. Let's know the chat. What do you think?

Should Joey finish the bottle? No, but I wanted to give a quick shout out to Wander. Okay. Number one place to book vacation rentals in the world. They are more than vacation homes. They are simply... Find your happy place. Start over.

Find your happy place. Find your happy place. Book a wander with inspiring views. Do we need the guitar for that? Yeah, we do. We do need the guitar. Hotel great amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning and 24-7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better.

Jordy, do you have a link or a code? Yeah, you just have to go to wander.com slash TBPN. Yes. If you just create an account, they're going to give away a, I think it's like a four-ish night trip to someone in our audience. That's a long trip. That's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Long than I was in Tahoe. So go do it. It takes a second. You can use Google or any other login, and you'd be silly not to. and invite us. Maybe we'll come. That sounds great. We rarely leave the house except to do the show. But if you book one that has a podcasting room, we'll be there.

Yeah. Fantastic. Let's go to Gabe. Tech guys take up a creative hobby because they want to prove they are insouled, unlike all other tech guys. And then they end up taking, and then they end up with the exact same hobbies as all other tech guys, which are making electronic music and photography.

Bodied. I do know some tech guys that have taken up electronic music and photography. But that's why we advocate for Nurebergring, bodybuilding. MMA. MMA. Long distance rifle shooting. Watchmaking. Most dangerous game.

Car collecting even. Even if you don't want to drive the cars fast, just collect the car. Sailing alone across the Pacific Ocean. That's right. These are hobbies that will differentiate you if you're looking for something. You're not going to become glorious and remembered in the trenches of EDM and photography. Carve your own Mount Rushmore. Yes.

In the Marin Islands. Highlands. Yes. I agree. Just do it. Someone says, want to go bouldering? And Gabe says, I will not do this. Very popular hobby.

But yeah, get out there, get deep in some rabbit holes on YouTube, find an obscure hobby. That's right. Really, really deep. Watch collecting. Go to Bezell. Start collecting watches. It's much better than. photography.

Anyway, Lancier Enga says you think cursors growth is crazy. There's a company in this YC batch that hit $50 million in annualized profit in two months. What do you think, Tertie? Annualized profit. It's a weird, weird stat, right? Yeah, because you're just... Because if you're making that much money, you should probably hire and scale the team and sort of spend, you know, like, I don't know. Yeah, annualized profit. It's like, did you make, is that like one good day?

It also would be hilarious if it was, yeah, it was one good day. One hour. No payroll expenses hit. Exactly. Yeah, nothing like pure profit that day. I mean, it's still impressive. I'm sure. I'm sure it's a great company. But it is funny that we're now talking about annualized profit, which is not like really a thing. Cash balance over time is what matters. But if you're making so much profit and you need to manage your expenses, you've got to go to ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. easy-use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting it a whole lot more all in one place. I really hope that YC company signs up for Ramp. And if we meet them, we will definitely be pitching them ramp. Anyway, we should have an iPad where anybody that comes that we run into, we just sign them up for Ramp. Yeah.

Oh, that'd be great. It's more of a public service than a sales activity, a sales motion. Yes, yes. Let's go to Richard Crabe. Very fascinating poster. Does it post very often. Do you know this guy? John.

John has insane podcasters high right now because you're like, this is the last post. Like three posts ago. Oh, what were you talking about? I never agreed to that. You still have the champagne you haven't finished. Let's keep going. What do you do the rest of the day? Nothing.

You're posting. You're podcasting. Let's keep going. Cheers to that. We literally only have six posts left. We can get through this. We're good. We're good.

I'll skip some of these. Some of these are repeats too. We'll skip this one. We'll skip. John save the best for last. Okay. We'll skip this one. We'll skip this.

This is a duplicate. Yeah, let's just, let's just, let's just close out of Richard Crape. Very interesting poster. He only pops up when something big is happening in the market. He runs a hedge fund, numerae. And he said he woke up today wondering how Leopold Oshenbrenner situational awareness hedge fund is doing. And so, do you know the story of Leopold Oshenbrenner?

Is that the open AI? He was an open AI. He left. He did a great podcast with Dorcasch Patel, talked about scaling laws and basically predicted that, you know, if you scale out the AGI systems, like it's going to get really, really crazy, made a bunch of kind of pivots away from the traditional AI safety arguments

towards kind of geopolitical relevance. Yeah. The idea that these will be, you know, akin to nuclear weapons, very controlled. But I think what Richard here is saying that, you know, Leopold's bet was that situational awareness hedge fund like go turbo long Nvidia basically. Like AI is the future. And then of course, like things are selling off right now.

And if you're levered long invidia, even if it's a good bet over the very long term, it could be in a rough spot. Timing and sizing. Exactly. Exactly. And so Richard Craves throw in some questions up on the timeline. I thought we're interesting. But good luck to Leopold.

I'm a big fan of his podcast. I thought it was very interesting. Anyway, anything else you want to cover? I don't know if this is somebody messing around. Okay, it's not. This is breaking news. We got some personnel news. What is this?

Somebody on the chat. Oh, you were talking a big game about me going to. Okay, okay, John. We got breaking news. Jordy's, oh, we got to do one more. Okay, okay, yeah. Did you finish? You didn't quite finish the bottle, but that's all you, John.

The bottle's done. So under the number, not less than 10 minutes ago, he says, when's the next? some personnel news should be a regular segment. And the answer is right now. Eric Schmidt, former CEO of Google, is the new leader of relativity space. He's joining his CEO.

No way. 50 minutes ago. That's incredible. And it says, I got an article here from Ars Technica. Another Silicon Valley investor is getting into the rocket business. Everybody's getting into the rocket business. I love it. We've, you know, sketched out some designs.

We're exploring it. but just to get some of our own low Earth orbit satellites, just to stream the showdown. But apparently he's been quite involved over the past few months and that he's been largely been bankrolling the company since the end of October. Dangerous position to get in when you are the lifeline of the company and the burn becomes your own personal expenses.

But if anybody can afford it, it's Schmidt. And it's not immediately clear why Schmidt is taking, a hands-on approach at relativity. But this article says it's one of the few U.S.-based companies with a credible path toward developing a medium-lift rocket that could potentially challenge the dominance of SpaceX and its Falcon 9 rocket. So pretty wild. Anybody that wanted the Google founders to go back to Google. He's CEO. CEO for a lot of. time, but he was never a founder of Google. That's wild. Exposed. But granted, I was, but I was a, but I was a small child in that area. I mean, clearly like, you know, he grew the company. He's

like a fantastic executive, but technically not a founder. But maybe that's a bull case because relativity has already been founded. He comes in and if he can do what he did for Google to relativity, it's very bullish. True. I don't know. And Google is, uh, Google, is down 5% on the news after hours. Obviously not. No, it is. It is, but it's because of the market. Yeah, yeah.

It's not because he's this guy who hasn't been involved in the company. A decade. Former CEO of some personnel news. Anything can happen in the market. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, there's an argument. It's like, okay, Eric,

it's so insane for Eric to join relativity space. Yep. And Eric's thinking is still embedded in this company. Yeah, yeah. He's worth less. The fact that he's, that he's, He's choosing to go back into the CEO role, and he's not going back to Google. Their case, maybe.

That's what you come here for. The worst financial advice you've ever heard. No, it's our job to give the worst advice. Break things loose. Nobody could ever say, as a joke, so nobody could ever say you guys are giving financial advice, which we never do. Never have. Anyways, fun show today. Fun show.

I will make sure John finishes the DOM. I will make sure Jordy finishes his DOM. I refilled it to the top. To the top. Particulous for. Cheers to you, John. Cheers to the great show. This is our life's work.

It is. Ike guy. It is a Ike guy. And thank you everyone for watching. We will see you tomorrow. We have a big. We have a big week. Big,

big announcement tomorrow morning. Big announcement tomorrow morning. And then if you follow us on X, get ready to repost, engage. Please, you'll know it when you see it. That is for sure. We'll see you tomorrow. See tomorrow. Bye.