Tea at Four - “I had 9 failed IVF attempts, now I’m happier without kids” - endometriosis, declining birth rates and what needs to change

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

In the start of our Future of Fertility series, we have guest Emma Kemsley on to chat about why she is childfree by choice. From thousands of failed IVF attempts, to severe endometriosis not taken seriously by doctors, Emma opens up about her journey through trying to have children, including a heartbreaking experience in lockdown. Now that she’s living her best life, she talks to the Tea At Four team on why making the decision to be child-free was the best thing she could have done for herself. The Tea At Four team ask the important question - why is it so taboo to be childfree by choice, and how can we make women more comfortable to do so?Send any questions or submissions to [e-mail]

To support sustainable food production, BHP is building one of the world's largest hot ash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. Hi guys, welcome back to TF4. I'm Kristy. And I'm Lauren. And this is a podcast where we talk all things that usually stay in the group chat.

The fertility rate in the UK and globally is at an all-time low, with more people deciding to be child-free now more than ever. 49 is asking our audience, the public and experts what the future of fertility looks like and what needs to change. Our future fertility series will consist of three T at Four episodes, each focusing on a different theme with guests. We really do hope you enjoy. focusing on a different theme with guests. We really do hope you enjoy. Today for our first episode in our Future of Attility series, we are joined by a very special guest. We are joined by Emma, who has a very interesting yet devastating story towards her journey to be child free. So Emma, thank you for coming on today.

Would you mind sharing with us a bit about your story? I have, oh, I don't know where to start with this actually. Tell me your story, where do I start? So I guess today we're talking about being childless, childless by choice, but my childless by choice journey is quite But my childless by choice journey is quite complex, I guess. I guess I'm one of the only people that's done nine rounds of IVF, but wants to be childless. Right. Which I think is quite probably an obscure story. I suffer with severe stage four endometriosis.

And that has led to a whole world of problems. I was diagnosed when I was 27. It took 10 years to be diagnosed. So I was offered in and out of hospital and doctor's surgeries, screaming in pain and it just went unacknowledged basically. By the point I was diagnosed was via surgery and my fertility was already compromised.

Wow. So I was told at 27, you don't have the luxury of waiting, you need to have a baby now. And I suggested it will likely be IVF. Right. So immediately the choice of having a child is taken away and it's been replaced by science. Yeah.

Turns out he was right because it was actually very, very difficult to try and fall pregnant through IVF. I didn't start IVF until I was 32. And then we had nine IVFs following that. Off the bat, how much does that cost? I spent about 100,000 pounds on IVF. Oh my God. I guess it's one of those things,

you get so used to paying for it, it just become a part of life. For sure. There was no spare for savings, it was just going straight into IVF. I also paid for a couple of private surgeries as well because the wait lists on the NHS are just too long. And when you're in pain every day and you can't function,

you need it fixed. So we had nine IVFs. I got pregnant on my sixth IVF, but unfortunately that ended with a termination for medical reasons at 22 weeks peak lockdown. And then following that seven weeks later, I got sepsis and I nearly died. And that was a big recovery.

Oh my God, I'm so sorry. That's horrific. That probably overshown, almost losing my life, probably took away from what actually happened and having to end, you know, six IVF when you've tried so hard to get to that point. Yes, but I got to round nine and then I was like, I'm done.

I'm absolutely finished with this. I can't do it anymore. I don't even know why I'm doing this anymore. So doctors always told me if I would have a baby, it would help with my endometriosis. That was the best cure. That was the best plan they had. If I was pregnant and I have a baby, it would help with my endometriosis. That was the best cure. That was the best plan they had. If I was pregnant and I had a child,

it would ease this firing endometriosis that was spreading like wildfire. Because I'd had four surgeries and it hadn't fixed it. If anything, I got worse after every surgery. I'd be okay for about four to six months and then it would just come back raging. Was this like private, with private healthcare through the NHS when you're going through the surgeries? So my first surgery was NHS and then the other three were private.

Wow. Yeah I mean I haven't experienced this myself but was there something in you as well every time you'd have a surgery privately versus you know public health care, oh, this is gonna be the time that I'm okay after this. Yes, I think when I went into my first surgery, which was NHS, which I had, I waited six months for, so that was 10, over 10 years ago, 12 years ago, I think, that was an emergency surgery and that was six months.

And then wait times have got longer and longer. And even though there's campaigns around to cut those wait times down, they're still getting longer. So the next surgery was a similar surgery. I had an erupted ovarian cyst, but the wait time was a year. When you're in pain every day, be increased over. And normal things that you can't exercise

because you're in too much pain. Or I'd go to Tesco's and I could be on the floor creased over and be like people walking around me, I'm like, it'll pass, don't worry. Just because the pain is so intense and you're over it, you have to stop. I can't wait, I cannot wait a year. This is, it's unlivable.

So you'd pay it and think, okay, I'll be okay after that. And you are for a while, but then it all comes back. There's no stopping it. And every time it got worse. So my endometriosis has destroyed my uterus, my ovaries, my fallopian tubes. I'd have those removed in one surgery, my colon, my bowel. And I'm unfortunately in the 1% that's in my bladder too.

God. So it affects all my organs. Yeah. I imagine if you're in that amount of pain and it's affecting that many different things, how much was your brain going to, I think questions around fertility? Was that a thing or?

Well, I knew my fertility was compromised, but I had it in the back of my head. I was being told by doctors, if you have a baby, this will work, it will be better. But because my ovaries are so compromised, I was told, oh, you probably won't get an egg. But sometimes you have to, there's so much what science says,

and then nature takes over. And I have been very fortunate to always get an egg and get very good blastocyst embryos, which is unheard of. And doctors would say to me, how are you doing this? I don't know. Sometimes nature takes over, I guess. When doctors are saying to you,

pregnancy is the better option, IVF and having a child seems easier than having reconstruction surgery of my bladder, colon and bowel that would have lifelong consequences. Where yeah, a child does sound easier than that. So that's why I kept going, even though deep down, I'm not the most maternal person,

but I was being forced into this corner of I have to have IVF to fix this. Whilst you were going through this, did you have any friends or family that you could speak on, or similar people that were going through the same type of process as you? Or was it something that you had to deal with by yourself,

research by yourself? Of course you had the doctors there, but with anybody, the doctors would tell you something. You always go and do your own type of research. I would say about 75% of my friends have all had IVF. Okay. Wow, really? Yeah, I don't know if we've fed something because children, I don't know.

But maybe we perhaps have all left it until we're in our thirties. But for lots of different reasons, no one's, none of my friends have endometriosis like I do. So we've all had IVF for very different reasons. So they were going through it, but their IVFs always worked. Okay.

There was lots of people around me that understood IVF, but not many people that understood what it's like to have it fail again and again and again. But I didn't react. I would just get up, okay, that didn't work, carry on, next. And I would just start the cycle all over again and think nothing of it. I guess I'm quite a strong person and strong willed.

So I was just like, okay, the mission is you get a child, it'll stop hurting. And that's just what I went with. God, you say you didn't have that maternal urge. So was your stance for pretty much a lot of your life, I'm not sure if I want to be a mother, like, and did you have a partner around that time when you were thinking about like, okay,

having a baby in the future is gonna be an option for me? I think, personally, I've always said, you know, I firmly believe in trust in your gut instinct. And I've always said, even from like teens, I feel like, I just don't think I'm ever gonna have a child. I don't think I'd be able to get pregnant. And it's always been in the back of my head. And it just so happens that I was right.

I can't. And I've never, I've always said, I think I'm too selfish for a child. Not necessarily, I know what makes me happy. And I don't think I'd be fulfilled by having just a child and doing that daily routine. And saying that, or maybe I'm too selfish, it doesn't mean that I'm a bad wife,

or a bad friend, or a bad daughter. I just know what makes me happy. And it's like choosing your own happiness. I don't think a child would do that for me. And I always knew that. So I think perhaps that's why I found the IVF easier to handle perhaps because I didn't mind if it didn't work.

Okay. I think what I appreciate what you just said is having the trace of knowing beforehand as you feel like in society, especially in the Western or my background, obviously you grow up, you go to school, you get married, you have kids. So from young, I'm ready thinking, yeah, I'm gonna have my twins, I'm gonna have this, but you never know.

And I feel like it's easier to accept that, you know what, maybe this is not for me, it's all right. And if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Whereas where you're female, especially I'll be brought up to be like, you're gonna be mothers, you're gonna be this, you're gonna be that. So once you've got that implanted in your head growing up,

and then let's say for instance, you come through these complications, it's harder for you to kind of like let go. So it's something that you're striving for, which what you've just explained is. I think I'd already set myself up to know that I wasn't gonna have children from being a teenager. Like late teens, I knew that that wasn't an end goal for me.

I knew I'd get married by a house, but a child maybe would be a bonus. It wasn't vital. It's just unfortunate that my health problems led me down to having to have so much IVF and forcing me into that. So it's been complicated when people say, why are you doing IVF if you don't want a child?

I'm like, well, because I have to. And you feel like you need a child. If all your friends are having children, your family wants you to have children, society feel like you need a child. If all your friends are having children, your family wants you to have children, society says you should have a child. It's a natural thing. We'd bought a house, we got married. What's next?

A child. But in the back of my head, I was always planning trips or when can we move abroad? When can we relocate? Where could we go? And the child was always the fault after that. Was your partner on the same page? Yes, I'm lucky that he is.

He wanted to quit round six, IVF six, he's like, I am done, stop wasting money. Yeah, well how do you like, I know you say you're obviously a strong person, a strong-willed mentally, but was there any part through that that you wavered? Like, so I'm sure a lot of people relate to your story. And I think endometriosis is so unbelievably common,

whether it's been diagnosed or not. And I feel like maybe not everyone's got the mental strength for that kind of process. I think having endometriosis has made me stronger. Okay. So I think that's probably another reason why I handle the IVF so well. Because when you have endometriosis,

every month it's like you're going to war. If you have a period, it's a battle to survive every month and that over time is gonna grind you down and you can even fall or you can get up and you can get on with it. And I think that's what I've always done. I will not let a disease define me or be me. So I've always picked myself up and tried to power through

and don't get me wrong, there's times when I shouldn't have powered through because I've got myself in terrible hospital situations. And I've ended up like, no, I can go out, I'm okay. And then collapse in pain and have to go to the hospital. You're an incredible woman, I just wanna say. Because I have had instances where I've gone to the doctors thinking I possibly have endometriosis,

but I've never gone through with it and never really advocated myself as much as I should have done. So I wanna commend you for that. You've inspired me to kind of. You have to stand your ground with dangerous. Stand my ground, which I know I should do. And I'm sorry to kind of take it back to this,

but that kind of instance that you had within where you had to force terminate your pregnancy. Termination for medical reasons. What was that whole process like? It was, it's difficult to explain. So again, that gut instinct, that intuition, I just knew that pregnancy wasn't gonna get to the end. I just knew, even when I got to 14 weeks,

I was like, I just don't know. And it was just something a bit weird. I had a scan and everything was fine. And my mom and my husband was like, I think you can relax, I think you're okay. I was like, I just had this feeling. And it was at week 18. I was like, I just you can relax, I think you're okay. I just had this feeling and it was at week 18. I was like, I just feel like I need another scan.

Yeah. And I was right, there was something wrong and I paid privately for that scan because then I just like, you're fine, you're fine. And I wasn't gonna have my 20 week scan until 21 and a half weeks because of COVID and everything was a little bit delayed. And I had that 18 weeks private scan

and it showed that the baby's bladder wasn't developing properly, which as a result would then stop lungs and brain function. And I called a midwife and I had to really fight to get a scan and they still couldn't get me in until 20 weeks. So it was two weeks of calling every hour. I mean, borderline stalking and harassment. But no one was listening to me.

And I knew from previous experience from the endometriosis, you have to shout to be heard when it comes to women's health. You really do have to fight your own corner because no one else is gonna do it for you. I finally got a scan and the hospital said, I'm really sorry, there is nothing we can do. It's, you're gonna have to terminate.

It's your choice, you can take full term or terminate. They said, you'll need to give birth, which confused me. So I said, well, you've said I need a C-section because I can't give birth because of my endometriosis. But now you're telling me I can. We don't perform that surgery here. Here's a number from an abortion clinic.

So I then had to arrange my own termination. And again, I think the language that we use around that, termination, abortion abortion feel very different. 100%, yeah, yeah. But it was referred to as, you know, there's an abortion clinic. I called them and they was like, we can't touch you, but we don't have the facilities to deal with you.

If something goes wrong, we can't fix you. Oh my God. So I was like, okay, so what do I do? Yeah. And I had to figure that out for myself while you're going through this, probably the most traumatic thing that a woman can go through, one of.

Yeah. And then I had to figure it all out by myself, peak COVID, so no one's around. I think the frustration for me, just hearing your story, is that the medical professionals, the ones that you're going to for help, they're the ones that in this process that you're going through, they don't know what to do,

so they're just, it's just taking you to the side, sending you off somewhere else. Whereas you're trusting them to find a solution for you. So I can only imagine how like your mental health during that period, how was that affected? It was stressful, really stressful. And in the meantime, you're knowing this is going to end and you're thinking, you almost wanted it in naturally to end and you're thinking, you almost wanted it in naturally. Yeah. You know, please just let me miss Gary.

It'd be easier than having to do all this admin around it. My husband bizarrely sent a tweet to the head of the fertility department at UCLA, which is a hospital I'm also under for my endometriosis. She got back to him. I was like, email this. Here's the same. Of course, in this modern day, that my endometriosis. She got back to him and was like, email this, here's this email. Of course, and this one day that is how you get heard. Shocking, and it's annoying with a man. And he only got it at about 1 a.m.

because he was like, we don't know what to do. Yeah, wow. And he was just awake in the middle of the night. I know, I mean, it's amazing that he did that, but it's classic that a man shouts about, obviously, for you and then that gets heard versus you in front of people in a personal capacity, doesn't it? Yeah.

And we was in within two days, we had another scan, it was much, it was a much more in-depth scan to really tell us what's going on, and he had come to the same conclusion that this isn't viable, and if you do take it, there's such a slim chance of survival, you're looking at a whole lifetime in hospital.

Yeah. But again, they couldn't perform the surgery either. So I was still fighting for this. And then we found a hospital in Hackney. Hackney? To do it. Yeah. And I went in, there was no one knew where I was there.

I had to say declare why I was there in front of a waiting room of women that just had babies. No. It was just dealt with so insensibly. It was, yeah, it was horrific. That's, I am. But it was the only way for me to get a surgical termination for my safety. And then I got sepsis seven weeks later, so it probably wasn't that great anyway.

Jesus Christ. I am so sorry. Sometimes, you know, these stories make you stronger. They make you who you are. It's life experience. You'm so sorry. Sometimes these stories make you stronger, they make you who you are. It's life experience, you learn from it. That's incredibly inspiring. I think one of the reasons we wanted to do this series is a lot to do around the stigma

of admitting to people out loud that you even feel like you have a choice to say, I don't actually want children. I guess from your perspective before that was like, I don't think I really want kids or I don't think want children. I guess from your perspective before that was like, I don't think I really want kids or I don't think that's destined for me because of my health. So then becoming pregnant

and then having conversations with people, did you feel like people treated you different or? I don't think they could understand how I could, I guess, grieve less over it. Not necessarily grieve less, but I know friends that have been in a similar position and they were devastated and they couldn't move on with life and they were heartbroken

and they wasn't pregnant six months later, they were still devastated. And I can understand why, because if you are a maternal person, that is very traumatic, but because I think IVF changes you, and you know it's so fragile, and the chance of ever conceiving is so slim.

I mean, it blows my mind that even people get pregnant. But when you look into the science, it is so hard. And I think because I had that knowledge, I perhaps handled it a little bit different. And it was sad, but rather than feel heartbroken all the time, I channeled that into something else and I taught myself what I actually wanted instead.

I wrote articles on it and blog posts and shared on platforms and podcasts and panels to help other women be strong through it and show them that there is, that the other side, you will come out of this okay. It's awful, but you will be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'd love to focus a bit more on life post IVF and coming to this conclusion. Could you tell us a bit about, I guess, what happened afterwards? And you obviously don't live in the UK anymore How did that kind of transpire after the termination medical reason we did continue to do another three rounds of IVF. Oh, wow

I don't know why yeah, I was proven a point. My mom wanted a grandchild my family want Mmm, when a child and baby to adore, you know, my cousins and I are all only children We've not had a baby in the family for 30 years They they want a child to adore and you know friends want you to be part of their my cousins and I are all only children. We've not had a baby in the family for 30 years. They want a child to adore and friends want you to be part of their group and their farm days or whatever they do, I don't know. And those stinky soft play things.

I don't know. I did continue thinking, no, okay, I know that's still what we've got to do. I'll be better, health will be better. And then unfortunately my mom passed away shortly after my ninth IVF cycle. That's obviously the worst thing that's ever happened to me. Like everything else is incomparable, it's nothing.

I just thought, I don't have anyone to do this for anymore because I'm not doing it for me. Yeah, so I just stopped and I thought, I don't have to do this. There's no one, I can just focus on what I want. I don't have to conform to what everyone else wants and I'm done. I'm gonna walk away, we can rebuild our finances.

Yeah, so we spent the last two and a half years after my mom passed, like, okay, let's move, let's make this happen. So we road tripped all around Portugal and Spain a few times and Italy and really did our research to where we wanted to be. And then we relocated in May, 2023, so a year after. And we lived in San Sebastian for a year,

which is an amazing city. And now we are living in the Costa brother. We've just bought a house to renovate. And now my life is very much beach every day and blue skies. It's easy and stress free. My health is better than ever. I'm practically pain free.

I used to be on the morphine in the UK to get through a period. That's not, well it was my norm. But I don't, I can't even remember the last time I took a paracetamol, which is crazy to me. But it's working and I wouldn't change that for the world. So you put that down to just purely lifestyle changes? I think so. Yeah. so for the first time, I have to have a MRI every year to check that my organs aren't about to malfunction.

And for the first time in 15 years, my endometriosis showed no progression. And I was speaking to the doctor about it, and he thinks it's a change in lifestyle. And the number one factor was produce. He said, there's less hormones in the food. I'm eating fresher produce, more locally sourced produce. I swim in the sea every day, so it's cold water.

No inflammation. It has such a huge effect on my health. I could have saved myself 100K. I could have just gone, I could have gone 10 years ago. God, and do you see, this is gonna be be really weirdly put, but does Spain seem quite fertile? So a lot of people have kids there, so people like, with everyone living that lifestyle and taking that produce, are they popping out babies? Do you know what I always say in Spain?

There's a lot of children, but they're not heard. Oh. Sounds Victorian. Well, they just go off and play. You know like I just find British children really whingey. That is a good point. It's the weather. It's the weather.

Yeah and the bad vibes. They know that if you're in a restaurant they're there. Like. iPad. iPad. Yeah. That noise. Right.

Spanish children don't seem to do that. They go off and play. If you're on like, I was out with friends, we was in a bar the other week and it's like outdoors and there was about 10 children there. They weren't whinging around the table, like getting into adults' conversations. They were playing, climbing on things

and swinging from a tree or something. But yeah, it's a very, it's one thing I've really noticed in Spain. I've watched, I've seen and watched. And I think the way children are raised and the family dynamics are very different. It's very interesting to see. But it also comes down to lifestyle.

Yeah, and in terms of moving across the world, was it easy to make friends? Do they have children? Interestingly, all my friends here have children. And so you always have, in the UK, so you always have to kind of go, when friends have children, you love them, you adore them, but those adult conversations do dwindle.

And I think that's what we really started to notice. Like you'd go to your friends and then conversations are interrupted because someone's dropped a spoon or I don't know. You never have that flow. And we knew we kind of wanted to change our lifestyle so that we would have friends that perhaps were more like us freelance

and didn't have children. And we found that in Spain. So we've got a lot of friends that are our age, late thirties, early forties, they don't have children and we found that in Spain. So we've got a lot of friends that are our age, late thirties, early forties, they don't have children, they're freelance. But that's because they've had the choice to be able to move. Because they don't have children,

they've had the freedom to relocate and live the life however they want. It's actually funny you said that because we did a Vox Pops, just asking the public on questions on being child free. And a lot of like couples especially were saying the reasons why they didn't want kids is having the freedom to relocate, the freedom to travel. And they found kids as like a restriction. We had a lady that made an interesting point. And she said that having a child is like a thankless task where you are giving up your body, your lifestyle, your

work, your career at a cost of a child. Oh wow. So you're putting... That's a really good way to put it. Yeah. It sounds crazy, but then if you think about it as well, it's like life on earth is limited. We don't, obviously people are not living for longer time on earth, but it's one of their own ways. You want to structure your life. You want to travel. You want to have the best job. We don't obviously people are not living for longer longer time on earth, but it's one of them ones way is

You want to structure your life? You want to travel you want to have the best job? You want to see xyz, but then you also need to factor in a factory moments of having a child And when you're moments of commitment a lifelong responsibility, so then now you're focusing on This said human being put putting your dreams on pause, putting your aspirations on pause, whereas the man can travel as a female. What are you? Yeah.

I think I always would have had this feeling of entrapment. Yeah. And I would have been stuck. And that for me, that fear of that feeling, I don't think I would have coped very well with that. No. Yeah. I like to feel free and I can do,

I can structure my day how I want. Granted, I'm lucky that I'm also freelancer, but I've designed my well of that. I like to feel free and I can do, I can structure my day how I want. Granted, I'm lucky that I'm also freelancer, but I've designed my life like that. A lot of my friends say, oh, you're so lucky. No, I'm not lucky. You could have made this choice, but you chose to have children. You could have this life.

I designed the life that I wanted. I guess you've been quite lucky in when you move away maybe getting to meet people is slightly easier. I feel like in the UK I hear it quite a lot about adults struggling to make friends when they have had children and they'll use like baby groups as a way to like you know mingle with like-minded people going through the same things that you're going through. How did you moving abroad make moving abroad, make friends and also make friends that were childless?

This is one of the biggest things I think people without children come across. It's really hard to make friends because people meet at school gates, they meet at play groups. And if you're not a part of that circle, it's difficult, where do you find friends? I think I posted in one of these ex-pat groups

a few weeks ago and a lady reached out and said, oh, I've moved to the area too, hi. And I was like, oh, hi. First of all, you know, could just be a nutter off the internet. We started talking and I was like, oh, actually she's quite normal. And all I knew is that she was American,

that she'd moved a similar time to us. She was about 10, 15 minutes away from me. And we met out for coffee and she was lovely. And I've made a new friend. We've got a doggy play date on Monday. Love it. I'm sure my dog will ruin that for me because it's an absolute nutcase.

So I've made friends that way. We made friends. I've made quite a few friends through Instagram. I think the algorithm pushes you together because obviously you like the same things. You're doing the same things. You're in the same location. And so I've made two really good friends

in the area that I live through Instagram. Who were also friends through Instagram and then I kind of got into the group too. I'm happy that you have your own community. So here you could be like the cool aunt, you know what I mean? I'm the cool aunt of the kids. I am literally the aunt that comes back from her travels, drinks the wine, has the fun and then leaves again. I have become court aunt of the kids. Take them back. I am literally the aunt that comes back from her travels,

drinks the wine, has the fun, and then leaves again. I have become that aunt. The court aunt. And then back in Spain, you've got your community where you guys can talk, you just live life. So you don't have that burden of, oh, I should have done this or I should have done that. No.

You're good. I've never met anyone that's regretted not having children. A lot of my friends who have had children have said to me, why did I do this? Wow. I have no regrets. This is exactly the life that I should be living and I have no regrets.

I do have a question. You mentioned you embraced that term of like the crazy aunt, but I think- The cool aunt. The cool aunt. Yeah, the cool aunt. She called me in. Come on, Lauren. The crazy cool aunt. I also think I said the cool aunt. Yeah, it's not crazy. She called me in. Come on, Lauren.

I also think I said the drunk aunt. He did say that, so I was going more that way. But I guess that's a whole other stigma as well, is that the fact that someone that's decided to not have children and take that kind of empowered stand gets them put in this bracket of like, oh, the crazy aloof figure that comes into our life every once in so often. Not that you're that, but I've definitely heard

it represented, especially in the video as well. But it's another persona that we've created. That's what happens to women that don't have children. Yeah. Do you know what? It's so funny because my dad's older sister, we call her international because she travels everywhere. So she's the elder, there's 10 of them. And out of all of her siblings, she doesn't have kids. This woman, she has traveled.

She always comes here, brings her stuff. It's like she's still living life. So the children are not the be-all end-all. You can still have life and enjoy. And I feel like I see that through her. So if I ever wanted to be like, you know what? The twins can wait. I don't think I need the twins right now.

I could see myself embodying my aunt. Sure. You need people like us as inspiration. It's true. Yeah. There we go. Big up, big up you. We show that life continues without children.

There you go. It's not a necessary part of life. You can still have a very wonderful, lovely life without them. And you can still have love. And I love my dog. I wouldn you can still have love and I love my dog. I wouldn't love a child any more than I love my dog. And he doesn't have to match. Yeah, that's a really interesting point, isn't it?

That you kind of have to attribute a persona even still when it's empowering. We're almost trying to attribute a reason still like, oh, the cool aunt, like why are we giving us a character? Yeah. But the good thing is about being the cool aunt is that you can be fun and play and have great time with them. And then when they scream, you can be back.

I know it's not comparable, but I looked after my friend's dog when he was a puppy and not being able to get up and go to the shop when I wanted to. Oh my God, I can't do that. And I don't know when I'm going to get to that point. And I think one of the interesting things as well is that like the birth rates are declining in the UK and globally. And I think for a lot of reasons that's like, we want to have kids late in our thirties when our fertility is

declining and then there's like the health implications and financial barriers, all these things. And I think the happier we are with accepting that like motherhood is not a thing we have to do, the happier we will be in life and be more present because this thing is looming over us. And I think, do you think it's better to have more conversations about like being child free or not, or just like not bring it up at all? Oh, that's a good question. because if you're going through YVF and you really really want a baby and you know that is the only goal for it you're not doing for health reasons

you are doing it because you want a child when someone comes to me oh you're not having children yet you haven't when you haven't baby that is gonna sting. The language. It hurts. But we should be having conversations around, don't feel sorry for a woman that doesn't have a child if she's happy living her life. That's the conversation that we need to have. I still don't think we should be going up to women saying, when you're having children, because you don't know what's going on behind closed doors

and how difficult it can be. But definitely don't feel sorry for someone or pity someone. You do get those looks. Like, no, no, I'm ready. I'm ready. Yeah. Yeah. Do you find your partner has the similar kind of conversations with his friends? No, I don't think they do. That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. I don't think it really comes up. I don't know what men talk about. What do they talk about?

I don't know. Do they have conversations? I don't think it really comes up. I don't know what men talk about. What do they talk about? Do they have conversations? I don't know. He's never come home and been like Well, my men don't come home and gossip do they but they've never come home and been like Oh god, guess like guess who's like trying to have a baby or oh, you know Who's had a miscarriage or like where those I would come home be like, oh god, guess what's happened Or someone's trying for a child. Yeah, maybe he doesn't have those conversations. He's never said anything like that.

It's crazy. It's always put on the woman, isn't it? Yeah. Because we have to carry it, we have to grow it. And like you said, we're the ones that give up our whole life. Men can just carry on living. Yeah. There's this kind of idea that women who choose

not to have children are seen as selfish. What do you think of that? I don't know why there is this concept, we can choose to do what we want. You know, we're not, we're not Victorians. We're living in 2025. We have the ability to be able to choose our own destiny and our own life and our own happiness.

And I often wonder where this comes from that it's a selfish act. It's not, there's a plenty of children in the world. It's not a selfless act. No, no. If anything, it's far from that, because why would you, if you're not naturally maternal, you wouldn't want to bring a child in to the world

and not be able to perhaps give it everything that a mother should. When men insert themselves and be like, it's being selfish, no, it's not. Cause you don't know what our bodies go through. You don't know what we're giving up. So until you guys are in the position to learn and understand what we're going through,

then you guys can speak until then. I can't, I don't think I've ever come across a woman to say that. No. It's definitely always men. Yeah. I think I disagree on the point that you say that men shouldn't comment on things

that don't concern them. I think they should but they should Shut their mouth until they are educated and informed and compassionate as to women of course Because I do think this is a really good point and I think as much as this series when we were positioning it we were thinking you know a woman's child a woman's choice to be child free or like You know the queer community and everything like this, but it's just as important for men to be thinking about this too. And for

like the way that they come into a relationship and they think it's just like an expected thing for women just to be able to reproduce is like, it's not always like that. And there's a reason why the fertility rates are declining. And I think we should feel comfortable talking to men about this. Communication is key, learning. I think that's what it is. And then also the media as well. They need to do their part as well.

Cause I think if they're not showing on like adverts like you said, people being child free or like, it's always, think of a typical Christmas advert. It's always the family unit. You're always constantly seeing that. So it then puts that thought in your head that you must have a child, but you're entitled to make your own choice.

You don't have to. Why are we not showing people like us that drinking champagne? I was dancing around my living room with karaoke till 2 a.m. on Christmas Eve. I love that. No mince pies out for Santa. We're just having a great time.

Yeah, do you know one of our most engaged with, most liked posts of 2024 on 4ix9ine's TikTok and Instagram pages was like a carousel of women who spoke about proudly being child free. And it was obviously celebrities. It was like Miley Cyrus, it was Oprah, it was all these well known names. But I think equally it's important to show

the fucking average Joe, sorry, average Joanna. And Joe and Joanna talking about like how empowering it is to live a life without children and I think it was mad the amount of engagement that kind of got and I think that just shows how important this conversation is to make people feel confident about knowing there's not just one road of motherhood or nothing. Question, how do people respond when you tell them that you're child free? I will honestly say, because I can't. And I will just cut them down. It's quite fun to see their face fall.

When you say, I can't have children, and it's just like the horror on their face, and they feel bad for asking. So I've made it quite amusing to do. Is there a difference between older people and younger people asking that or do you feel like generally people are cheeky enough to ask in a certain way? I think probably older generation ask. But sometimes even if you say, oh, I can't have children and I'll just stop trying, relax. It'll happen. Not the voice.

And then I was like, I don't have fallopian tubes. They were removed like that's physically impossible. You never know. The amount of people that don't know basic biology is shocking. Is there any advice that you would give to maybe women in a similar situation where their health is not forcing them but leading them down that path of considering having children maybe if they're unsure about it? So I've since I started speaking about endometriosis, IVF, fertility, I've had and then stop in my IVF journey. I've also written about that quite a lot because it's not something that's mentioned.

You only ever hear the success stories. You don't hear about the ones that don't work because it's a business, people don't wanna see that it doesn't work. The healthcare system doesn't wanna show you that. But since I have started talking about that, I've had so many women reach out to me and say, how did you do that?

How did you stop? Because IVF is addictive. And I remember the last time when I walked out of, my last one, I was like, that's it, I'm done. And my doctor laughs at me, you'll be back. It's like, crack, you can't stop. I went, no, no, I am done. Thank you very much.

But like I said, I've had a lot of women reach out and say, how did you do this? How did you stop? Simple as, I was brave. I took the plunge and I just stopped. If you are thinking of doing it and you're on the edge of stopping IVF or don't know whether you want a child or not,

don't feel pressured by anyone else around you. It's your decision, or if you're in a couple, you both need to be on the same page. I'm very fortunate that my husband and I have always been on the same page. It's your decision. Your happiness matters over everything else. And be brave.

A child is not the end all to life. You don't need a child to have a happy life. And when you do stop, you'll rediscover yourself. You'll get a little piece of you back because your mind's not just filled with trying to conceive or IVF or because it takes over your mind. You stop being able to have conversations and doing things. You start getting your life back. You stop and you'll get your life back. You'll find happiness again. You'll find yourself again and you'll find what you really, really want. And there is a whole world out there

that does not involve children and it's really nice. Love that, thank you so much Emma. You're welcome. You mentioned the point about being an only child. I'm also an only child and my mum actually calls me a miracle baby, so it was not easy for her to conceive and I think when I did finally come along it was like, wow. That's the only conversation I've had with her around having, you know, what it's like to have a

child and I would like a child in the future but that's not something I had a conversation with her about. Did you feel like that missing of a sibling when you grew up and even going through IVF did you think, oh I I'm gonna have multiple children out of this? Like, what was your thoughts around being an only child and fertility? I love being an only child. Do you? Yeah, I love it.

But I was really, really close to my mom. She was impressed about how strong I was about it and just got on with it. But yeah, I don't think it's played too much of a factor. I think when I was thinking of IVF, I always assumed I'd get twins. I think you always hope for twins. They do say this, don't they? Because played too much of a fact. I think when I was thinking of IVF, I always assumed I'd get twins. I think you always hope for twins. They do say this, don't they?

Because you pay so much money, it's like buy one, get one free. In once, out two kids, it's even again. So if you wanted one child, that was fine for you. And you just like were not that obsessed with like. No, I think we'd spent so much money on it and it was such a hard journey to get there that one would have been absolutely fine. But do you think that if you'd had a sibling,

do you think you would have maybe realized earlier that that pressure was coming from a familial place and maybe you would have decided to be child free earlier? Because for me, I'm an only child. Oh wow. And I just think, there's a lot of us in the room. I've never had this many only children in the room. I never know any.

Who else? Just us. Reveal yourself. I feel like if I had a sibling, maybe that pressure would be lessened, because they could have a child and I wouldn't need to. Yeah, perhaps, yeah. I guess if you had a sibling,

it would overtake the pressure off. And I would have probably got to the conclusion of not having children earlier. But as an only child, I guess you're never gonna know that. That's one of those things. So around that conversation about when you had to terminate the pregnancy and go through that, I know it's not a thing in the UK

to generally get time off for a loss of a child or abortion. Do you know anything around that or how much that feeds into like sickness leave and it's really? Difficult, I think it's still considered. I think you only get two weeks with some employers perhaps I know there's a lot of campaigns to change this It's absolutely vital because you cannot recover from something like that in two weeks. I think a termination at the moment is still considered like a miscarriage again, which still doesn't have enough leave behind it.

I think employees are becoming much more aware about the need of recovery and hopefully it does change. But I guess it didn't really apply to me because I've been freelance. Of course. So, but the reason I've had to be freelance is because I can't work a full-time job with severe endometriosis.

I can't say to a employer, I'm sorry, I can't come in for two weeks because I'm in pain. I can't get out of my bed. I was fortunate that I had the most wonderful employer who was very understanding and would let me work from home when I needed it, let me work from bed. But the job prior to that, I had to leave

because I'd be pulled into an office and screamed at every day for having time off or being late because I'm crippled on the toilet because my bowels not functioning, my bladder's not functioning. I had a very bad experience once at one retail job I was working and I had like excreciating pain. Like it was the worst ever.

My first days are usually the worst. And I remember speaking to my manager, I was like, I honestly cannot do this. I need to go home. And we had literally a back and forth for a good hour and she still didn't let me go home. So the whole, I had to make a stand and literally- And that's a woman.

Yeah, it's a woman as well. I had to make a stand and I just stayed on the floor. I was like, I'm not moving. Until you guys understand that this is what I'm going through. I am not moving. Obviously I've got disciplinary is what it is, but I think the fact that, like you said, it was a woman, people don't take it seriously.

There's no compassion because- If you have a normal functioning period and a normal functioning body, you'd be like, what? Right. Cause what do we see on the body form adverts and the tampon adverts? A woman rollerblading. Right.

Who is this woman? I can't get out of bed and I'm hooked up on more things. Thank you. We give the wrong impression with these adverts. So I've, similar to you, I've laid, I've not been allowed to leave before in pain and I've laid under a death vomiting into my bin through pain. And later that day, actually, I was put into hospital

with an eruptive cyst, ovarian cyst. And they made me lay there. That's horrific. We're gonna play a quick game of facts, stats, or fiction in which we're gonna get quizzed on aspects around being child-free and fertility. Cool, let's do it. The fertility rate in the UK has been declining.

In the 1960s, the average amount of children a woman would have was 2.9. What is the average number now? What is that? Oh! How'd you get 2.9? 2.9? Were they missing a leg?

I don't know, it's weird, but what is the average number now? Oh, way less, surely. I would say so, because everyone had children in the 60s, right? Yeah, they didn't have anything else to do. Pop it out, pills. They didn't have contraceptive, they were just having sex and getting pregnant. Yeah.

I'm gonna say the average now is 1.2. I was gonna go for around the same. Yeah. 1.2, 1.... One, two, three, seven, five, four, two. Thank you. Yeah. 1.1 point 1.1 point 1 2 3 7 5 4 2 thank you yeah 1.44 closest yeah I mean that's a significant drop yeah yeah I guess everyone I know has two or one in 1971 just 18% of 30 year olds had no children. Today the figure has risen to question mark.

Oh, that's gotta be way higher. I think it's gone up. I'm gonna go 42%. 42%. Somebody's telling me 47. I'm gonna go 50. Oh, 50%? 50%?

I win. What? What? What do I win? Right? Oh, win. Wow. 50% of over 30s in this day and age don't have children. Yeah. That is... It's quite mad isn't it really when you think about that. That's an obvious... you can see the decline in birth rates if that's 50-50, from 18 to 50. It's quite a big jump.

Yeah. In the 1980s, the average age for women to have their first child was? 13. What? Chrissy! So odd. So odd.

So odd. So odd. So crazy. The 80s. The 80s. Sorry, sorry. Oh my God. That's. I'm going 22. Yeah, I'd even go younger. The 80s! The 80s! Sorry, sorry! I'm going 22.

Yeah, I'd even go younger, like 21. Maybe? In the 1980s? Yeah. What hair were they doing back then? Oh, okay. This was like rock. Oh my god, you're making me feel so old.

Oh no, sorry. Sorry! This was like rock rock. Oh my god, you're making me feel so old You know what it was? Sorry, like wasn't that like Mauds? Granny over here Is that Michael Jackson era? Mauds era, yeah Michael Jackson era Sing Whitney, everyone dance with someone, big hair, leotards Oh, what about somebody? Green eyeshadow, shoulder pads

22 They were dancing, they were dancing, they were shagging Shagging about. Yeah, 22, yeah. 22, I would've said 22. Did you have to sing Whitney Houston to make a guess on how many, how old you were? Yeah.

Yeah. The answer is 24 to 25. Oh! That's so young. It is. My mum was 24 when she had me. Really? Yeah, my mum was 24 when she had me actually. 25, yeah, it's what it looks like.

So why didn't I say 24, yeah. Today, the average age for women having a first child is? What, the average age? I think 36. 36. 32. 34. I'll be in the middle.

Late 20s to early 30s. Do you think 36? I'd love for it to be that. I think that the conversation with a lot of my friends is that I like, I've still got so much I want to do, travel in my 30s. I would have thought that was to be later than that. Yeah.

But I'm saying- I know a lot of people that like, oh, no, granted, you tend to have IVF around that mark. I know, yeah, quite a few women that have probably late, like mid-30s, 35, 36, even 37 started, yeah. Next one is, what percentage of women go back to work after having children? I should know this, I was reading about this the other day.

I think it's gonna be about 35. Maybe 50-50 split again? It's less than 24%. It is less than 24%. Christ. Yeah. It's less. I knew it was low because it's the childcare costs that are really stopping women going back

because some women are working and childcare costs is more than their salary. It's insane. Yeah. It makes no sense. I think there's a stat like the average, what was it, the average salary you end up spending, like, what was it?

85% of your wages on childcare no sorry why would I even do that yeah it's crazy but why is childcare so expensive i don't know because it's privatized interesting so i need to become a child care person you need oh you'd open a nursery yeah literally yeah because my friend's nursery fees when she told me that i said excuse me i said no yeah you're gonna earn a lot yeah so warren a five-day childcare and then if you have My friend's nursery fees, when she told me that, I said, excuse me? I said, no. Yeah. You're gonna earn a lot to warrant a five day childcare. And then if you have two, that's like double.

Choking. I don't know, don't you get like one by half price or anything? I don't think so, I don't think so. Promo code. Yeah. I know where I'd rather see my money, in my wardrobe or on a plane.

Amen. I hear that. Also, of that 24% that go back to work, it says that less than 79% end up leaving anyway due to not being able to maintain the full-time role. Wow. It's just nothing really out there that sells have a child, is there?

Not my thankless task that she said. Thankless as well. It's like, oh my friend is so stressed and miserable and spending loads of money on childcare and whatnot. And then you can't travel because it's school holidays and then that goes up in cost. If they want more people to have more children, they need to do some kind of campaign around it.

To promote it to look good. They do, they do. Well, some countries are doing incentives. They're like pay 10 grand for one child and then 20 grand for a second child. But at what cost? What's the clause? Cause I think there's a catch for me too. Yeah, I feel like there's gonna be a catch. There's definitely a catch. Yeah, 20 grand for a second child. But at what cost? What's the clause? Cause I think there's a catch for me too.

Yeah, I feel like it's gonna be a catch. Yeah, definitely a catch. Yeah, the government probably owns this one. Yeah. You have to go into like slave labor, like like the girls stuff. I don't know, like what is that? They have to go into an army or?

I'll have to look into that. Yeah. Before I move to Singapore. The country with the best maternity leave offers 410 days of paid leave at 90% of their salary. Which country is this? Amsterdam, I know they're amazing.

Is it? Do you think it's Amsterdam? I know the Netherlands and Denmark are incredible for their childcare and. Something's telling me Sweden. Definitely, it could be any Scandi country. I would put it down as a Scandi country. They've got it right, haven't they?

Like the working weeks, prioritising your personal lives over professional. So it's actually Bulgaria. Oh! Where's that? I got that wrong. Bulgaria. Europe?

Eastern Europe. But you're half right, because Norway's the next best. It's just slightly less days, but Norway offer 100% salary. Wow. That's brilliant. Whereas England is only 273 days and 90%. But in England sorry. Geez okay well I've been moving to Bulgaria. How long does it take for the average endometriosis diagnosis? I know this. I actually have no idea. It's around seven years right and even And even with that, like, you don't get

the actual keyhole surgery situation. Like, how, I don't know, seven years? You're close, you're close, it's eight. Eight to 10, but I think the diagnosis time is actually on the rise, it's not going down because of the weightless time. Yes, great. Cool, amazing.

What are some of the current reasons for being child- free by choice? It's gotta be having more money. Yeah, definitely finances. That's house situation I'm gonna be renting in a fucking house share until I'm 65. I can't I literally look at my room I'm like, where would the cock go? I've got my clothes here my clothes here here, my floor job there, well, the can't go. Just a feed a child and clothe it as well, I guess. Yeah, forget about that part.

I think having support could be one of them. Cause if you don't come from a big family, you don't have that support to look after the child. I've lost two friends to childbirth. So childbirth, the risk of it as a black woman is also. It's high, it's a lot higher. That, yeah, I'm getting emotional now. Yeah, that's why.

But I guess I think it's the healthcare system as well that's probably a choice of why people don't want to have children. If you think the wait list for endometriosis is getting longer, your fertility is highly compromised. That list gets longer, you're not getting the surgery, you're not gonna be fertile. Definitely.

It's a matter of life and death, because even now I'm thinking that I want children, but I could potentially die having children. So it's like. I think that's what scared me after getting the sepsis afterwards. I was like, whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's what scared me after getting the sepsis afterwards I was like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. For me that's. That's true. So I think freedom, healthcare systems that are in place and support finances. Yeah. And maybe career. Cause I don't think they really wanna give up their career. That's very true.

Yeah. I don't know, this might not come into it, but like one of the things that really bothered me when people spoke about having children is like the saying it takes a village and like The prospects of me going into being a mother and not having my close family around me because I'm not that close with my family that's one of the reasons why I think I would go like oh I don't want children because people assume that you have to have like grandparents

that are gonna be there to date on these children. And that really bothers me. Yeah, I often think that as well, that we wouldn't have anyone around us and I would just be stuck with those children from day in and day out. Yeah. That's interesting, that's how I've been brought up

because even my sister, when she gave birth, literally all the aunts, she didn't do anything anything it's like you you recover take time for yourself whereas your village are the ones are looking after their kids but not everyone has that yeah it's true yeah and now we can't afford to even put like i like my mum had to go back to work after like less than amount of time of time of maternity leave because she had to start earning again and there was only fucking, she sent me to nursery when I was like nine months old. Wow. Can you even imagine that? And that's the thing that I think women having to do these

days. That's interesting because you're in the nineties and I'm eighties and my mum didn't go back to work. She was at this kind of, oh, I've had a baby. I stay at home now. So that's changed from the nineties. So you think how much that's now changed in 2025. We've had this shift in how women approach it. I don't think it's as easy to have a child anymore. No. All those things are correct.

Child care is too expensive. The paid parental leave policy in workplaces puts people off. Obviously recently, one of the big things is in the US, the recent loss of reproductive rights has had a massive impact on women's choice to get pregnant. There was a study that we saw that was like 30%, I think,

women in Michigan at the moment have decided to be child free because of the- Because of that. Because of what's happening in the US. The whole, there was a whole thing that I think Trump said about embryos that you have in storage that are frozen, that if you destroyed those, you could be held liable and put into prison.

I mean, it's frozen, it's not even life yet. It doesn't become life until it's actually attached and functioning and that is shocking. It's horrible and it's horrific, but I hope this kind of conversation empowers a lot of people to think about their options and Feel empowered in their decision whether they want to have a child or not because we're not sitting here bashing people that do want to Have children at all, but I think equally you shouldn't be seen as the crazy aunt You shouldn't be seen as like this fucking anomaly for deciding that you don't want to go down the path most taken

It's good to have options. I've always lived life by that role It's nice to have options and being childless is one of them and how lucky are we? Definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on our pod And yeah, we'll see you guys next week for another episode of our future fertility series. Bye!