Tea at Four - Jamie Windust on non-binary dating life, microaggressions from women and dressing for yourself

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

To celebrate Pride this year on Tea At Four, we’re inviting people from the LGTQIA+ community onto the podcast, to learn about their experience in a super open, honest, non judgemental, nothing off limits way for a 3-part series. For the first episode in this series, Lauren is joined by Jamie Windust, an award-winning non-binary writer, public speaker and model.They take us through non-binary slang words that we might not know, and points out the 'trendy' ones. They share their journey in trying to label their sexuality after coming out as non-binary, what compliments come across as microaggressions and why dating apps for non-binary people are a struggle.Let us know if you have any questions or dilemmas, send to [e-mail] or DM us @teaatfourpod x

Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Rogers Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fairs, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday, anywhere along the Go network. And the weekday group passes offer the same weekday travel flexibility across the network, starting at $30 for two people and up to $60 for a group of five. Buy your online go pass ahead of the show at Gotransit.com slash tickets. It's not offensive, but it's just like, it's like microaggression because again, it implies that like only women wear makeup. They take the sorting hat.

Yeah. And J.K. goes, they them. But imagine being Tate. I could have been like, you could have rewritten history. Andy, sit down. Hi guys, welcome back to T4. I'm Lauren and this is the podcast where we talk all things that normally stay in the group chats. To celebrate Pride this year, we're inviting people from the LGBTQIA plus community onto the podcast to learn about their experience in a very open, honest, non-judgmental, no question of limits way. And with that, we've got our first episode today with the brilliant Jamie Windhurst. Yay!

Thank you for coming on the part. It's a pleasure. Would you mind introducing yourself to our audience? Just a little bit about you. I'm Jamie Windust. I am a writer, author and digital creator. And I am non-binary, which is maybe like a bit interesting about me, other things that are interesting.

I like to do lots of things on my own. You might've seen me on the internet doing solo dinners, solo days out, That's my bag. Little big loner. And, you know, I love having a chit chat. I love dressing like a geography teacher. Amazing. And chatting.

I love that. So, of course, you're here today to talk about being non-binary. What are your pronouns, Jamie? My pronouns are they, them. Thanks for asking. What are your pronouns? Perfect. She, Jamie. My pronouns are they them. Thanks for asking. What are your pronouns? When in life did you identify that you were non-binary? And I guess, I don't know how

you feel about this term, but when did you come out? As a narcissist, I came out in a very gorgeous Facebook post. Perfect. Very nostalgic. Very vintage. Very vintage, yeah. Just on Facebook, I feel like I'm getting old because I've recently got back into it. Is it? So I've crossed the threshold of age. Right.

Where I find it interesting again. And when the local groups... Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it. You know. Yeah. I came out online because I'd figured out what non-binary meant through digital means. So social media, YouTube. I was in the era of like, before he was crazy, like Jeffree Star. That world, I was very much in that YouTube world. So I'd always been around people that were like androgynous or explored with their gender expression.

So I'd always been around that type of people. And then when they started using this kind of gender exploratory language, I language, my interest was peaked. And it was actually quite a non-event. I was just like, that's nice. Do I like that? Yeah, feels alright. And I just kind of stuck with it. And so I came out on Facebook. And I was like, yeah, if you don't like it whatever and then moved on what was the what the comments? I think I did it so that it was one of those things where I I never came out, you know like in film and TV when people were like But I never did that yeah, right

Don't know I did that boy, um, I never did that and I always did it online I think because I was maybe a bit scared to do it sit down. Yeah, and so I thought't know why I did that voice. I never did that and I always did it online. I think because I was maybe a bit scared to do a sit down. Yeah. And so I thought, I know, like good little PR girlie, I'll just do a blanket statement. Everyone will see it, get some likes. And it also just sends the message out there

without me having to be vulnerable. Amazing. And it worked. But what did the early days look like of you exploring, oh, maybe I want to be non-binary, maybe were there other things you were considering in terms of your identity? I think this was in my, not rebellious era,

but I'd gone from being like a very, like quite and quite perfect school child. Okay. Always had my shirt tucked in. I was the one that said, excuse me, don't we have homework? Oh my god, me as well. Going from that into kind of late teenage adulthood, I became a bit more rebellious with, specifically with the way that I looked.

I was like, let's shave my head. Let's put loads of makeup on. Let's wear crazy clothes. And that was fun because it was like an extension of my natural curiosity into like, who am I and what could I be? And at the time it wasn't really about finding out my identity, I was just kind of immersed in the dress up box and having a fun time.

So I wasn't really thinking about it. And then, like I say, when I discovered this language online and I discovered a community of people that were also just having a bit of fun, I thought, oh, that's a nice kind of community connector, this, this language. Um, and I just took it from there. And then with pronouns and stuff, that's something that, like coming out, it's kind of, you do every day because you have to, you don't have to, but like, you

can tell, you have to tell people your pronouns and that's in a way like what I would think of it's like micro coming out right because if you want people to respect or just know what your pronouns you kind of have to say them and in the act of saying saying that you're coming out which is why I got an agent that helps so she does it for me love that love that because I'm actually funnily enough I'm actually so British that I will just sit there and not say anything. You mentioned you were kind of digital, the community or the people you were kind of looking at as influence.

What was your in real life community like at that time? My physical community was quite small and it still is quite small in terms of like queer community. Like I don't have a huge group of queer friends. I don't have a huge group of friends period. Sorry, that's very American. Period. Period. Which is fine, but that's very American. Period.

Period, which is fine, but that's why I started doing digital creation work and digital content is because before I moved to London, I was like, I don't have community, so let's find community in the palm of my hand. And then I came to London and slowly discovered community. But now I find community in ways that aren't necessarily queer specific.

So like at the gym or here or at the theatre or just like trying new hobbies and then finding community in that way rather than you know having like a big blowout group of of gays who like to go to that festival that rhymes with shmula boop. I do. Yeah. Yes shmula poop. Yeah. Because that's not my scene and sometimes it can be hard to say that but but I'm boring and proud. That's all right. I'm boring about that.

I'm boring. Boring and bored. No, you're not. How do you feel about people coming out as non-binary in 2025? I feel like with coming out as non-binary or trans or when there's like pronouns involved that may be changing or names that are changing Yeah, I feel like there's more logistics almost in comparison to say coming out as

Gay or queer because there are certain changes Like lifestyle changes that may need to happen that your friends and family may need to know about so I think there is a way that coming out is necessary in that respect because you do then kind of want to follow up with some extra information like, oh I'm non-binary and also here are some new things about me. So coming out can be quite helpful in that way. Other ways, yeah, up to you. I know what people mean when they say, up to you. I know what people mean when they say, aren't we past this? Yeah. But like for me, for example, I never got to come out

at school because people told me who I was. So I never kind of got that moment to like discover my sexuality and then like share it. People were like, you're gay. And I was like, what's that? And then didn't really get a chance to do it. So I think when people do come out, for some it's like their

moment to say this is who I am and I'm going to take ownership of that. Yes, sure. Okay. Just quite nice. Do you feel, have you ever felt, and especially now, do you feel a pressure to perform your gender or what you associate yourself with and not just exist? I definitely used to, yeah a lot. I used to have what I described myself as a career queer. So like when my identity and my world is kind of also part of my job. There was a time where they were quite enmeshed so I kind of performed, not like in the literal sense, but like the way that I looked in the way that I was, I was a lot more androgynous, a lot more kind of femme presenting and I struggled to kind of step out of that or explore that fully without feeling like I was letting people down or you know, I'd kind of become known specifically

in like the fashion and the modelling world of having a very specific look. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I can't change that because that's what I'm known for and that's what people expect from me. Okay. Whereas now I'm very, very less like that. Do you think that's the case for a lot of people? They feel that they have to perform and like overly present or like have it all figured out quite early to have people accept them and then maybe not think they're a bit of a fraud? Yeah and I think there's a, specifically with like being non-binary, there's, there's

so much space within it by, for example, presenting like feminine or presenting androgynous. And then perhaps in a year's time, kind of like with me, I was like, oh, let's think about presenting more on like the masculine side of androgynous and like exploring that. I think sometimes people can fear that they can't explore all facets of it because in their heads they're like, oh, non-binary people are like androgynous or white or thin or they have a very specific type of look. Whereas actually anybody can look however they want to look can be non-binary. And I think that's, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Let's celebrate that. 100%. How or do you label your sexuality?

Now, this was a funny one. Again, this is like the logistics thing. This was actually a moment for me like a year after coming out as non-binary. I was like, hold on. We can't really say gay anymore. And let's break it down. Right. Gay would infer like a gay man is somewhat, is like a gay man is attracted to another man.

So I was like, okay, if I don't identify as a male, like if my gender identity isn't like a man, then I'm no longer a man interested in men. I'm a non-binary person interested in men and other non-binary people. Right. So I was like, what does that do? And then I was like, queer. Let's use that one. Like an umbrella term. Yes. Yeah. For me, it's self identifiable. So like I could decide what it meant. So rather than being like, oh, I'm not gay, so I don't know what I am. I was like, queer is quite queer fits. Yeah. Because it's, again, it's, yeah, it's going to be whatever you want it to be. And I understand the historic connotations with the word. But I feel like in our world right now, people have reclaimed it,

or people have their own relationship with it, and we should respect that. But for me, it just fits. So I was like, that's great. Not in this weird, like, I'm not gay. What am I? Yeah. I'm straight. Is that hard, just to kind of find a label for it? Is it more you questioning yourself or did you feel that pressure from other people to have that

answer? Sorry, including me for this fucking thing. Yeah. So you're the problem. I think the latter. Yeah. I was kind of like, well, what do I say when I'm on dating apps and they're like, who do you like? Because I'll be like, oh, I don't know. And so yeah, it was a little bit of like, oh, people are gonna ask me, so I should know. Because this was kind of at the beginning of my like, dip into media and fashion world and getting out there. So I was like, I should probably know. So yeah, but I'm glad that I figured it out.

Amazing. Still single though so is it really important? What do you think is the most funny slash most ridiculous thing you've ever been asked about being non-binary? It's not necessarily super specific about being non-binary but I used to hate, this is quite funny, I used to hate Halloween because when I because I used to be very like I used to hate Halloween because when I, because I used to be very like, I used to basically look like David Bowie. Like all the time. And at Halloween people would be like, who are you dressed as? And I'd be like, no one. This is just my day today. I used to find it really sad because the people would be like, I love your costume and I'd be like, I'm just going to Tesco or any other shop.

So that was stuff. The questions I get a lot about non-binary are really random ones that are really like, you'll meet someone and they'll just be really invasive like, what do you say at the doctors then? Or like, what's going to be on your tombstone? I'm like, I don't know. Who even thinks of that anyway? Yeah, like whatever going to be on your tombstone? I'm like, I don't know. Who even thinks of that anyway? Yeah, like, whatever happened to hello. How are you?

Hi. Yeah, how are you? No, I'm fine, thanks. What do you, how do you, do you reply like, sarcastically or just? I take my headphones off and I say, oh, I'm actually listening to, no. I, no. Oh, it's actually Prada Gucci. Yeah. A lot of this is kind of like, I get 50-50, these comments coming online or people saying them to my face. I think there's something very

British about people seeing something they don't understand and thinking they have their God-given right to just immediately ask. Like curiosity breeds this kind of sense of innate confidence, especially in men, to be like, what's that, don't get it, tell me. Yeah. Sometimes I play along. Sure. Sometimes I take the piss. Yeah.

I will act, don't I? Does it offend you? Do you feel offended? It used to, yeah. Yeah. It used to be, I used to find it quite offensive because it was very invasive. And when I presented more femme,

it felt wrapped up in kind of like transmisogyny and it felt kind of, I felt more vulnerable because there was often perhaps like a sexual element or like it, yeah, that's another question I used to get a lot of, like it would be instantly like asking about my undercarriage. Oh, their business, God, from strangers as well. From strangers, yeah. asking about my undercarriage. Oh. Yeah. Their business, God. From strangers as well. From strangers, yeah.

Once I did have a very bad situation where somebody, a drunken man, drunken sailor, put his head underneath my skirt, which. Oh my God. Did make it to the police station. Yeah, as it should. A cab, but I did report. Yeah.

Upskirting is illegal. May I remind you all? Thanks, Gina. I think no upscart is gonna be watching this, to be honest, hopefully not. But... In case, nothing, no. Yeah, so people, again, it's that, I really think that curiosity leads to that just

blind confidence where people are like, I don't understand you, therefore I'm going to dehumanize you in a way and just ask the really bizarre questions. Yeah. I don't do that. No. Imagine doing that to someone else. Grow up.

Yeah, grow up. I guess I was on a slight negative note, so I'd love to turn it around. What would you say is the best thing about identifying as non-binary? I think the thing that I love about it is that I actually, and again this isn't a read, I don't think about it. I don't ever think about my gender identity unless I'm either talking about it in a very fun way, in like an open way, or when a problem because of my identity is brought to me. So what I like is that being non-binary allows me to just, I don't think about, oh, I should be wearing that

because I'm a man or I should be doing that because I'm a girl or, you know, like I'm not ever really thinking about the ideals of what I should and shouldn't look like because I'm in this just like blurry place where like, yeah, does it look all right? Yeah, cool. I think that's actually more empowering than even me

as a heterosexual woman just getting dressed every day because I'm thinking, God, does this look feminine enough? Am I looking too masculine? Is this hugging me in all the right places? Am I trying to dress to avoid the male gaze? Am I appealing to the female gaze? And it's exhausting. So I guess I look at you and I'm kind of envious

at the way that you are so at peace, maybe? As you should be. Yeah. You're envious that I look at you and I'm kind of envious the way that you are so At peace maybe? As you should be. Yeah. You're envious that I'm at peace? I've not died. Yeah, not yet. You've got to decide your tombstone. Yeah. Whoo!

No, I've recently learned about something called... No, I'm not going to talk about that. Really? Yeah. You can. It's like when you, it's like instead of getting cremated you get boiled. Yeah, I think we'll save that one. Okay and onto that. I'm not having a tombstone. I'm gonna be boiled. You're not actually gonna do that. My mum's actually, my mum works at a funeral directors.

Oh my mum died two months ago. Sorry. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. I didn't mean to make anyone feel awkward. No, that's interesting though. She works at funeral directors. Are people asking to be boiled? Only me. Only.

She refuses. I feel you're as quick as me. Yeah, you are. Yeah. I've met my match. It's like Roger and Roger Federer and Nadal. I don't want Shannis. Wimbledon.

Actually, fun fact about me. Yeah. I made it to the final 50 of Big Brother once and it was the year that Andrew Tate was on it. Imagine that. Andrew Tate was on Big Brother? That's how he became... How did I not know that? He got kicked out like two weeks in because they found his... Online. Yeah, that's like the beginnings of him. But imagine me and Andrew Tate. I could have stopped this. This is like... I could have been like, You could have rewritten history.

Andy, sit down. Come on. You can't think of the women. Yeah. Like, what about living in this middle space, Andy? Oh. No. But imagine that.

Yeah, imagine that. I was in the... I was literally in, we had to do like a fake day where the audition was pretend Big Brother. And then I watched it. I didn't get on. I was like, fuming. Watched it. He's there. Oh God. Was he, was he being like that on TV? He was quite arrogant on TV. Yeah. But then like I say the Sun found his content and he got removed. Thank oh thank goodness. Okay well let's move on to the next uh segment so these are a series of questions taken from Google's most searched bar. Like the ones that come down? Exactly. Nice. Yeah. How do non-binary people choose their pronouns? She won't be happy about this but

do non-binary people choose their pronouns? She won't be happy about this, but they take the sorting hat. Oh my God, so... And they put it on their head. Yeah. And JK goes... They, them. They just say... The thing is, like, pronouns are so fun because you can literally do whatever you like.

Like, so many people I know that are non-binary. Yeah. So she would, like, turn in her living grave if she heard that. I'm gonna get fined. Get under her skin, please. Again, this is maybe like a misconception that if you're non-binary you have to change your pronouns. Okay. Some people will be like, I actually don't really mind you still calling me he-him because don't care. Like it doesn't feel perhaps because don't care like it doesn't feel perhaps like alarming to them or it doesn't for me like if someone calls me when people were calling me he what I describe it as is like if someone was

saying your name wrong so if you were calling me like James yeah it's like a twitch I'd be like yeah it's not really comfortable but like it's not it's not necessarily like super offensive because you might not know. Yeah. Someone might have called me James to you and you just being innocent. No, I'd always call someone out on that. Sure. Yeah.

Thanks, Becky. Yeah. Shut up. But do you know what I mean? Like choosing pronouns, just whatever fits. Yeah. Shut up. But, do you know what I mean? Choosing pronouns, just whatever fits, and they can change. They can move around. Some people do a combination of like they and he, she and they.

I know people with she, they. It's quite fun to get just spruced it up. Writing an email is very exciting. Yeah. Because... All sorts. Yeah. Love it.

So yeah, just choose what you like. My mom actually asked me recently, she said, Jamie, what does he they mean? She said, am I using one or the other? This is about someone else that she saw on the internet. It's basically just like interchangeable. So it kind of broadens up language in a way because you can use both. But most of the time people would use it because they feel like there's the comfortability within both of those pronouns. So they're happy for you to use both. But if I

was talking to you now and you used she, they, I would naturally make an effort to interchange. So as not to perhaps like exclude one because it might be tricky. So some people, for example, can sometimes, if you say you're she, they, they will sometimes don't use she. And I think it's good to use a bit of both. I get that. So say if someone's pronouns were he, they,

and you were like, you had someone that was like consecutively just using the he, would that be considered a bit of a microaggression to a non-binary person? Yeah, perhaps because there's perhaps a slight avoidance there of using the they. But again, it's completely individual, you know, most people are not vindictive, and most people aren't being horrible. Yeah.

And so having conversations like this is really great because we can kind of talk about these things. And yeah, being able to have that conversation with the person to say, oh, by the way, just like reaffirming these are my pronouns will be great if you could switch it up or do what I did, get an agent and you can ask them to say it for you. Yeah, amazing, love it. Okay, next one. Is non-binary the same as trans? It's again, it's a question I get a lot because I would identify as

non-binary and trans. Okay. Because it falls under the umbrella. So for me, like the definition of being trans is that your gender identity does not match the sex you're assigned at birth. So for me, that's true. Because I wouldn't identify as male. the sex you're assigned at birth. So for me, that's true, because I wouldn't identify as male. So for me, the term trans fits,

although for some people they would say that, and this isn't exclusionary, it's just the way that they perhaps identify the word for themselves, is that they would see trans as more of a binary thing. So they would perhaps say that they're just non-binary. But for me, they're one of the same same because non-binary falls under the trans umbrella. So you can have trans people who transition in the binary, like along the binary.

So you know, like trans men and trans women. And then you can get people who are trans that transition from say, male to female, and then they also identify as non-binary. Okay. Meltingbinary. Okay. Melting pot. Yeah. I think things like that, we get so hung up on like, what's this and what's that? Just ask the person and then they'll tell you their definition.

Yeah. And that's not the homogenous homo. That's not the homogenous decision. Yeah. Or like definition. It's just theirs. Okay. So, you know, we don't all speak for each other.

100%. Who do non-binary people date? Apparently not me. Oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah. Hello? Hello. Dating is interesting because for example, online dating, the way of the land currently.

When I say that I'm non-binary on a dating app, what happens is I am then shown to people, because when you sign up it says who are you attracted to, like who are you looking for and you can click men, women, non-binary people. Right. So if, what happens is you'll get a straight man, click women and non-binary people, because people who are assigned female at birth can identify as non-binary. But then I'm also saying I'm non-binary. So what happens is all of the people who are non-binary,

dependent on their body types and how they live, are then shown to all these straight men. So I actually find it quite frustrating dating online, because I get quite a lot of straight men who are actually looking for non-binary people who are assigned female at birth. That's tough. That's challenging.

They enjoyed the breast boobs and the tits. Yes, right. All three of them. Ah, which is fine. Unfortunately, a cup. So do you know what I mean? So like it's tough. It is tough because then I'm like having to root out the people

that actually might be interested. So I'm saying yes to this lovely straight man from Hackney, but he's actually just looking for a woman or a different looking non-binary person. So the pool can feel quite small. Hence why I've gone analog. We're going into hobbies. We're going outside.

We're going into the real world. I'm having conversations with people. I love that. How do you find that? Deeply demoralizing. Oh. I find dating apps deeply demoralizing. I actually think it's like better or more healthier rejection therapy in real life. Do you know the one thing I like to do on that? To get conversations is I like, I've started giving compliments.

Nice. What sorts of example? Well, I'm also truthful with them, so I'm not just going to... Yeah. If there was a non-binary person, is there certain things you shouldn't compliment on versus you should? Like, are there any grey areas or... One thing I used to get a lot, actually I still do when it comes to makeup is they'll

be like, especially from women, they'll be like, you've done that even better than I can. Right. And I'll be like, yeah, I know. I've got a rougher canvas. Right. We're dealing with different terrain. Yeah.

But for me, I find it, it's not offensive, but it's just like a slight microaggression, because again, it implies like only women wear makeup or like they have ownership over makeup so they're like you this this different person who's tried this thing if not been like I used to work on the makeup counter yes 2025 I mean people will make bowie will make up come on come on go with the times things like that or like you wear that better than I ever could or I well I used to wear heels, people would be like, you can walk better in those than I can. Like, yeah, I know, you're 80.

Do you know what I mean? They'd be like, yeah. You've got scoliosis. Yeah, hello. Look at my limbs. Spritely. Yeah. So things like that, like comparing me to like the traditional archetype of what like should and shouldn't be doing.

People are like, wow, you shouldn't be doing that, but you're doing it great. That's interesting. That's a good thing to know. So if you want to give a compliment, just be like, I love your insert. Insert. Don't say anything weird though. No. Yeah, we don't like that.

So you say they give the three options on dating apps of the female, male, non-binary. What would your preferable option or scenario for the algorithm be? This is why I think AI will kill us all. Algorithmically, big word, it's tough to leave an open box. For example, on lots of forms and things like doctor's forms or like digital forms, leaving an open box for me to just write however I identify is often really great because it's not necessarily being like cataloged

into a way for me to be then shown to other people. Whereas on an app, like with a dating app, it can be difficult because if you release an app to seven billion people in the world, obviously not all of them are dating because there might be children, babies. But do you know what I mean? Like if you release an app to the general public and you, if I get, if you gave them a box to describe themselves, that could be quite hard

for the app to then show you to the right people. Matchmake. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. There are lots of options you can have. Male, female, non-binary is, it is limited, but I think what's better and what dating apps do a lot better is before that, before you even say this is who I'm attracted to, when it comes to the self-identification, there's loads of ways you can identify. And some do offer that space to say, this is what I want.

You know, the smaller apps, the boutique apps. Yes, boutique, that's a good way to describe it. Thank you. But yeah, for example, if I'm saying I'm non-binary and then I'm matching with straight men who are also saying they're interested in non-binary people, sometimes it's interesting. I'm thinking about what to say without being judgmental.

And again, this is my personal experience. I can end up dating incorrect. Just my experience, but I can end up matching with people. Let's say straight men who say that they're interested in non-binary people who are perhaps exploring their identity, their sexuality, and are curious, perhaps slightly fetishizing of androgyny or transness. And so they may, rather than me, looking for love in this crazy world, they're looking. On July 18th, it's the Blue Crew to the rescue. It's smurfing time. Hefty. Can you even lift, They're looking. Delivered to your door from no frails with PC express shop online and get $15 in PC optimum points on your first five orders Shop now at no frails dot CA

Experience they're looking for some afternoon delight, right? Very different angel to like yeah, and is it a way of exploring or is it like you say like a like a fetish? Fetish thing like don't get me wrong, afternoon delight. Let's just say sometimes the clock strikes the afternoon. Exactly, it's an opportunity to kind of maybe... Hello! Yeah. A broken clock is right twice a day.

Yeah. But sometimes I'm like, well, you know, if I'm honestly looking for love. Yeah. I'm like, oh, this person just wants to have, just wants his perhaps his pornographic fantasy fulfilled. Yes. What a compliment that he's come to me. But it's not, I mean, sometimes it's a bit like, oh right.

And I can't judge people for exploring their sexuality. We all do it. We all have to find out who we are, but sometimes that's a barrier. And just being caught in that can be quite psychologically difficult. Because then I end up not really getting any further than you up. Hey you up? Yeah I'm fucking up. Yeah I'm up. Got IBS. Thank you. Yeah, I'm up. I'm watching reruns of Gordon Ramsay. Yeah. I'm up.

Jokes, okay. The next one is, is using gendered terms like girl, queen, king offensive? No. No. I call my brother girl. Girl. I'm like, oh, you're doing too much. I like a girl.

I say it all the time. Is that for everyone, not everyone though? I guess it's. I don't actually tend to say it in like a girl. I say it all the time. Is that for everyone? Not everyone though? I guess it's. I don't actually tend to say it in like real life. I tend to say it either to myself or in my head. Yeah. If someone said that to me, no, I personally wouldn't find it offensive. Yeah. If someone called me, the only thing I can think of when people say king is like short king. Yeah, you don't want to be a king. And I'm 5'10", so make up your mind. Am I talking? Talking, yeah. Well, yeah, we are.

We're on podcast. Exactly. Talking, talking. This is not the same thing, but I love to call people pearls. I went from girl, and now I call people pearl. Why? Do I look like I live in a clam? Yeah, you do.

What do you mean? I don't know. I just like, I went from girl to pearl. It's quite sweet and endearing. Yeah, I like it. Isn't a pearl quite sweet? What, you'd be like, I went from girl to pearl. Okay. It's quite sweet and endearing. Yeah. Yeah, I like it. Isn't a pearl quite sweet? What? You'd be like, hey pearl. Hey pearl.

But no, not offensive. Come on. Amazing. That's a classic like thing that like older generations would think. Is an issue. Is an issue, whereas, don't care. Yeah. What would you call a non-binary partner?

I couldn't tell you. I'm sorry. A dream, a goal, an aspiration. A pearl and a clam at the bottom of the sea. What would I call a non-binary partner? My partner. Yeah. And straight people love it when you say that because then they're instantly like, partner. Are you in business it when you say that because then they're instantly like partner.

Are you in business or are you gay? Right. You know, like if you go and watch someone or if you like see someone and they're like, oh, my partner and you don't know who you are, instantly like nails, ring, dangly earring, eyebrows. Yeah. Gay. Do you know what I mean? So. Yeah. Context clues.

Just. Yeah. Context clues. Yeah. Gay. Do you know what I mean? So. Yeah. Context clues. Yeah. Context clues. Yeah. Yeah.

That's another thing people seem to be obsessed with when they're talking about non-binary people is like, what are they going to call their mommy and daddy? Oh yeah. For example, I made an Instagram, I believe you call it an Instagram reel. Yeah. With my niece saying, I love being Uncle JJ. Right. Because you know why I like being Uncle?

Why? It's because sometimes non-binary people get things wrong. Because the non-binary, the neutral word for an uncle or an auntie is a nibbling. We're not doing that. It's giving guinea pig, it's giving kind of gerbil. Don't know who I need to speak to. The head of LGBT, you know, HR, LGBT. We're not doing nibbling. It's criminal. Yeah, it's criminal. That sounds a little bit suspect. What are you nibbling at? When did you start that? All jokes aside, you could like call yourself whatever you desire. But for me, I was like, Uncle JJ works great. What I love is that I love being an uncle,

best part of my world, is because I'm very interested, I see it as like a slight experiment, because they've only ever heard me be spoken about with they pronouns. Okay. Or like as they actually don't know I'm called Jamie, they think I'm called JJ. Oh. So it's fun to see them just like adapt and pick up on what my family are all doing. And so when people are like, young children shouldn't be around this. It's like, well, they're actually just...

They're different. Yeah. And they don't know anything other than what they're being told, which is nothing inappropriate. That's just that I'm Uncle JJ and I live in London with Paddington. I love that. The last one of the searches is, is non-binary legally recognised in the UK? No, and you know, you might know me from other things such as campaigning the government.

That was something I did. Okay. Funnily enough, I was on a train back from Leeds. It was 2019, it was Valentine's Day. And do you know what I did? I said, I'm going to petition the government. So on that train home, I started a petition to say, hello, please, can we have X markers on official documentation to have this legal validation?

Because we didn't have it. And that was 2019. It still hasn't happened. I've actually learned since then that there are pros and cons to not having legal verification, let's say. For example, some people, let's say some non-binary people who are black or some non-binary people who are like immigrants or asylum seekers, they would rather not be like tracked, let's say. Put that in a variety of comments. But like have all of their business known to the government, especially that sensitive type of material,

because as we're seeing now, as governments become increasingly more right wing, actually in Germany as well, like that data, the government know that data, and there are some kind of difficult things going on in Germany in response to when anti-trans laws come in because the government then knows who is essentially identifying outside of the binary. So my views on that have changed and there are actually really amazing ways that

people can have their identity affirmed officially in ways that aren't necessarily legal documentation. So like people changing their name by deed ball, people having like renaming ceremonies. That's cool. People like hello, Jamie is now JJ. Yeah. Ta-da, here's some cake. And things like that where you can kind of have things that are more socially, kind of like social moments where you can celebrate and say I've got a new name, whilst also having a little bit of official, an official change that's not, you know, we can't necessarily have the legal, like my passport, for example. Some countries you can. But then again, like we're seeing now with trans people, for example, I know a trans woman who went to perform in the US and to get her visa because of Trump's new executive order, her visa came back with a mail marker and people in the US were having their passports renewed,

their passports are coming back, even if they've lived as a trans woman for 30 years, coming back with an M. So legal official certification is not always the silver bullet that I think sometimes people think it is. Bit of a protectant then I guess Yeah, it protects you and some in some in some ways correct. But um, for example yesterday I went to give blood well done you we should all be giving blood. Yes, they just had a drop-down box

Yeah on and I could choose so for example my title Is MX on the form? That's what it said. And I was like, brilliant. I can't officially change my gender identity in the law, but the giving blood people said, go for it. And I know entirely, I know you're saying a hundred percent about like wanting to normalise that like, it's not even something you think about now, the fact that you identify as non-binary something you think about now the fact that you identify as non-binary. In the list of things that are important to you, how much is having that official ex-gender, to be able to use that on your passport, how important is that to you? I think there is a level to it where it would be lovely and it is important to me but I think about it in the context of what's going on right now

and I think for me in the priority context of what's going on right now. And I think in the PR for me, the, in the priority list of like, what's going on globally, it's not a priority. And you could say this is quite pessimistic, but it's not a priority because I don't think it will happen. And it's not looking like that will happen. So for me, I'm like, okay, we'll put that down, you know, it would be nice. However, it's not necessarily going to change my day-to-day life. It might make certain things like the NHS or travel or, you know,

visas and that type of thing more affirming. But I've had to reprioritise and say there are actually other ways that I can have a sense of affirmation, social affirmation. Like things like I say with my niece and nephew, like things like that and having just a family unit and friends that support me, I'd rather that than, you know, I can go to Honolulu with an ex on my past. I love that answer. Thank you. It's okay.

For this next part, we would love to quiz you. It's not a quiz, just questions. Ask you about some slang or terms associated with being a non-binary individual. Sure. Slang. Slang. Love Cockney rhyming slang. Yeah, it's absolutely not Cockney rhyming slang. Oh, okay. Cool. No, it's not that. Right.

Sorry. No apples and pears. So the first one is presenting. What does presenting mean? Presenting. Okay. so like femme presenting. I have no idea, just in terms, like, if I heard that associated. Presenting is like, sometimes you would hold a mic and sometimes it would be like in the studio and so.

Matt Baker, no, femme presenting, Claire Balding. Claire Balding. Femme presenting, masque presenting is like the way that you present the world. So it's often as like, so I used to say that I was more fem presenting, which would be like, I present femdening to the world. But as I say it now, it sounds like a word that it sounds funny. Present as if it's like, like a debutante ball, like presenting lady or the manner. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's essentially just how you show up in the world. Okay. So again, it's something that I think a lot of trans and non-binary people are familiar with. But I mean, I guess maybe a question for you, is it something that it sounds like something you might think

about, but you probably wouldn't use the word presenting for example You know earlier when you said you think about the way that you show up and yeah Female and male gaze it might it sounds like we all have that but we just have a funny word for it Yeah, I agree and I think as well and I don't know Microgression is not the word but if you're hearing someone say presenting puts a lot of pressure on the individual to be one or the other Yes, do you feel like it's a bit of pressure on the individual to be one or the other. Yes. Do you feel like it's a bit of an outdated term now then? Or it still could be used to be associated with non-binary? I think there are ways that it is good to be used.

For example, like going back to dating, you could say that you're more attracted to femme presenting non-binary people. So it's a good like perhaps indicator of a group of people. But I do know what you mean. Sometimes it can feel a little bit pressurizing or that you have to present in a certain way. But yeah, that's that one. That's a good question. Good slang.

Cool. What is gender dysphoria? It's essentially a term where you feel it's like on TV and film, it's kind of often, and this is quite clunky, but it's kind of, you know, the moment where people would be like, they try, they'd like put on a photo for person put on like a suit. And then, but they were like a trans woman or they're exploring their identity and they'd be like, feel uncomfortable in this.

It's kind of that feeling of unease and dysphoria. So like a feeling that there's not a match between the way that you see yourself and for example, like as a trans person and the way that your body may look or the way that you may present. So like for example some trans women would have gender dysphoria about the more masculine traits that they may have so like broad shoulders or their voice or their hands or things that perhaps they may feel dysphoric about. But it's essentially something that is quite medicalised for example in the UK you need to dysphoria to be able to have a gender recognition certificate. Oh, really?

So you have, it's kind of, there's a part of it that's very medical. So you have to go to the doctors and they, they say, yes, you have gender dysphoria, but equally, it's also something that people just live with. For me, not, I have not experienced that too much because I feel quite comfortable exploring lots of, you know, the, the, the, gender dysphoria, but equally it's also something that people just live with. For me, I have not experienced that too much because I feel quite comfortable exploring lots of physical presentations of gender. Perhaps I might experience gender dysphoria if somebody was calling me the wrong pronouns consistently. I might feel a bit like dysphoric.

Yeah. But for me personally, not something I have hugely, but it differs between each person. Yeah. Well, my second one here is gender euphoria. Gender euphoria. It's like, so Zendaya, it's Jacob Elordi. Labyrinth kind of doing the soundtrack.

Yeah, they took ages to do the new season. Gender euphoria is just a fancy and very, doing the soundtrack. Yeah, they took ages to do the new season. Gender euphoria is just a fancy and very, it's quite an Instagram way to say that you feel good in about yourself. Yeah. Do people say that? It's not a feeling?

It is, yeah. I mean, it's just quite dramatic. Like, I'm euphoric. I've got a tie on and I feel great. Oh my God. I don't think I've ever felt euphoria. Yeah, like this is what I mean. great. Like, I don't know if you've ever felt euphoria. Yeah, like this is what I mean. One direction.

I think thank you. It's the last concert I went to. You're joking. No, I don't like music. Oh. Yeah, no, gender euphoria is a lovely feeling. It's often something that people describe in the like first moments where they feel content

in their identity. So like the first time you might, for example, like a trans man, the first time they might have their hair cut in an affirming way or that they grow facial hair or if they start hormones or if they have an affirming experience with a friend, like socially, there's lots of ways that you could say, oh this is gender euphoria. It's basically just a way where you feel great because you've either self-affirmed or you've had someone else affirm your identity. Okay. It's a good nugget. Thanks

everyone. Thank you. And the next one is Enby. Yeah, again, this is up there with nibbling. It's not a vibe. It's spelled E-N-B-Y. It's a very, it's very Twitter. Very, so it's like a... It's very Reddit. Right. Do you know what I'm getting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love to you all. It's basically just a shorthand way of saying non-binary. Yeah. And when I hear people say it,

I think they're saying envy. It's essentially just, it's again, often used on like dating apps or social media profiles to say that you're non-binary, but in like a cool and hip kind of way. Previated. Yeah, even though it's arguably longer and more annoying. Yeah. Okay.

And the last one is genderqueer. What do you call me? Sorry. Genderqueer. Okay. Great question. Again, this is perhaps, this is something that is an identity that I feel like I'm playing that game where you can't say the words, but you have to describe it. You can say it. There's no rules to it.

Even though I can. Genderqueer, for some people, they would say that instead of non-binary, they identify as genderqueer. So for some people it would be their identity. I'm not 100% sure actually, I'll be fully truthful. I think again, it sits in that middle ground of non-binary transness, gender exploratory space, but as someone who doesn't identify as genderqueer, I'm not 100% sure. And I think it's good to say that. Yeah.

You don't have to know everything. No, no, no. We're all learning. You're speaking from your personal experience though. You're not saying you've got the authority to be the knowledge of everything. Yes. All things non-binary. Which was a hiccup I fell into at the beginning of my career where I thought I had to do that. So now it's very freeing to say, do you know what, don't know. 100%. Something that I would encourage

people to do if they're with non-binary people, if you're not the non-binary person and you don't know something. You can also just Google it. Yeah, not everything has to be asked face to face. That's with a lot of things at the moment I feel like. Exactly. Yeah. It's very similar to non-binary. It says here, genderqueer is an identity term

and an umbrella term for people whose identity falls outside of the traditional gender binary, man and woman. So I guess they're kind of interchangeable. It's just another way of phrasing non-binary, I think. Love it. Love it. The more you know. Okay, well, we wanted to round off by asking our audience if they had any questions for you.

Hi, Jamie, any tips for dressing in a way that feels gender affirming without overthinking it? Without overthinking it, great question. Do you know what is a great place that often, if you're shopping for clothes and isn't too gendered, because high street can be very gendered, go to the charity shops, go vintage.

Less gendered, more to choose from, cool bits, trendy girl, or man on non-binary. I think the one thing that I always try and do is, I know it's easier said than done, but you know when people are like, people are thinking about themselves, not you. And I think that is true. For people who may look different or may pose that question of like,

you look, I've not seen someone like you before. Sometimes people are genuinely just like, what's going on? But I always say, look in the mirror, dress for yourself before you leave the house. I always feel great before I leave the house. Sometimes I leave the house, I get home and I feel a bit rubbish because people have been rude. Right. But as long as you feel content in yourself,

don't put too much pressure on yourself. Like I say, you don't have to present in a certain way if you don't want to. There's one clip that my parents still mock me for when I went on ITV news in a headscarf, wrapped around like dot cotton. It's chic. It's chic. It's chic.

I looked great. And this was the time when I was wearing full, the foundation was called clown white. So I looked like if you, if you wrapped an Easter egg in a bow. We listen and we don't judge. I remember leaving the house and being like, I look amazing.

Did the internet think I looked amazing? Oh yeah. No, but I did. Good. So I took that photo, framed it, saw my wall at home. Love that. Yeah. Wake up for the morning. Morning star sign.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good answer. Nice. And I love that about charity shops as well. I think they're good at kind of bridging the gap. Not sponsored by Vinted and or eBay. Yeah. Also good for that. I love Vinted. Yeah. Yeah. Great shout. The next one is my parents keep misgendering me and telling me not to

correct other adults in our family or circle because they've lived longer and they will also not understand it. So just to keep the peace. I hate upsetting my family and being the problem, but I also can't sit there just being misgendered constantly. What would you do in this scenario? A difficult one because it, especially with age, like if you're young and you don't necessarily have the financial autonomy or just like literal legal autonomy to leave, you kind of, you know, that's really difficult. First of all I'd say it's like, it's not your fault. And I think when you're young and you feel like

you're bringing something into the family unit that is different and they've not seen before, it can feel like you're the problem. Because like this person has said, they're reacting negatively. Secondly, I'd say find community outside of that space, whether it be digitally or physically. Yeah, things like that can be difficult. However, I would say I...

Dependent on the family unit, I remember one Christmas I bought my dad a book that was like kind of like a children's book when it was for adults about how to... Navigate? Like pronouns. Okay. My mum actually also set up a swear jar, but instead of swearing, it was misgendering. how to navigate like pronouns. Okay. My mum actually also set up a swear jar, but instead of swearing it was misgendering and I got to keep the money.

That's fucking fair. Which is great. Yeah. You know, there's funny videos of people online where they'll have like a megaphone if you get it wrong and they'll be like, no. So there are lots of silly ways, but realistically, I think for me, what helped was finding community digitally that affirmed me or physically, however you find it, to remind you that you aren't the problem.

Okay. Like I say, if you're young, it can be difficult, but as you get older, you can kind of, I know it's a bit cringe, but like choose your family and you can decide whether or not you want people to stay in your orbit. 100%. That's difficult and obviously context dependent. Yeah. But you are not the problem.

Yeah, that's beautiful. As Taylor once said. Yeah, and she is the... Problem. I've noticed a lot of non-binary people also talk about being neurodivergent. Is there a link? Yeah, interesting one. In my work as a writer, you know, I'm often looking at news, I get a lot of news and research

coming in. So I have heard of that link. And I know that there is kind of, it's a space that is being studied, and I know that there is, especially within like community spaces, I know that a lot of queer spaces also happen to be very accessible

to neurodivergent people. As someone who is not, let's say, officially neurodiagnosed with any neurodivergence, I would be, I wouldn't wanna speak on that too broadly, but it seems like there is a lot from my observations, there is a lot of community spaces for people with, who are queer or non-binary and trans in that space and who are also neurodivergent and it's growing conversation. Okay, so this part of the podcast, we play a game called Facts, Stats and Fiction in which we kind

of debunk or we demystify some kind of facts and stats around being non-binary in this case. Sure. So would you like to go first? What was the first country to offer ex-gender identity on passports? Ooh, I feel like Spain is quite progressive. Sure. From what I know in terms of like IVF and things like... It's hot.

It's hot. They've yeah. They're probably quite good about that. Absolutely. I know Germany have it but I don't know if that's new. Right. The Scandinavians are quite chic aren't they? They are chic. They'll probably get on board. With their four-day work week because they've got time to make this in like this. They've got time yeah, Ikea. Exactly. I'm gonna go Germany. Okay. Rogue. I'm gonna go with Spain. So it was actually Australia in 2011, but you're both right because as well as

many European countries, including Germany and Spain, and Canada is another country as well, those countries allow an ex-gender marker on IDs, but many others don't. And in most of the world unfortunately there are no legal protections for non-binary individuals for health care documentation and anti-discrimination still. True or false there are other gender neutral pronouns other than they them. Oh true true true there's loads of funky ones loads z z z z z is that right or is that German?

Zee. Zee. Zer. Is that right? Or is that German? Yeah. Ja and you. Yeah, there's loads of funky ones. I love it.

I love it. It's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy. That's right, right? Not in a bad way. No. It's just, who knew?

Who knew? Zer. Zer. Yeah, you're right. The ones I've got down here are Zee, Zem and Zer, but with an X, not a Z. Amazing. Do you know what? I'm learning all the time.

I think that's something people think when they speak to me, I'm not like... A beacon of knowledge. Yeah, but I'm also not like sub-tweeting you in real life. I'm not like talking about you. Right. But when people are like, hey, do you want to talk about being non-bidary? I'm like, yeah, I love it. But there's also...

More to the... Loads back here that needs to be filled up with knowledge. Like, it's easier. Love that. It's easier. Who knew? I'm learning. Amazing.

What percentage of non-binary people have avoided medical care due to fear of discrimination? I mean, I hope it's a small amount, but unfortunately I do, I think it's higher than I think. Maybe like 50% or maybe just over. It's quite chunky isn't it? It's quite chunky.

I'm gonna say 40. 40, nice. Very close Jamie, it's 33. Wow. So one third of non-binary people have avoided medical care due to fear of discrimination and that's according to the National Center for Transgender Equality. That's loads. Wow.

One in three. Come on, guys. Come on. Yeah. What does that look like? What does a more open and more inviting situation in terms of the healthcare system look like? I think the one thing that I hear a lot about is specifically when it comes to like breast cancer screenings, cervical smears, that type of thing. There can be

a lot of difficulty there when it comes to having accessible practices, for example, like neutral language or people going and feeling like they can have an experience that's not gendered, because things like that can be quite gendered, you know, like with the language. So I think having that space, and I know there have been improvements in that, so I think it's great. A lot of people online that I know are kind of, trans men, for example, saying, go and get your smear test if you need it.

But also, I mean, it's a tough one. Do I trust Wes Streeting, the current health secretary at time of record. To put that in place, probably not. So maybe we go private. Maybe I start because I'm a doctor. Do you want your tits done? I'll do it.

Thank you. Is that a lot for her? Yeah. Okay. No, it's not. Yeah. No, Shane. No, I don't.

Oh, amazing. But yeah, tough one. Yeah. Tough one. We've just yeah. No, Shane. No, I don't. Oh, amazing. But yeah, tough one. Yeah. Tough one. We've just got to plow through. Yeah. Yeah, if I'm having a heart attack, call me whatever you like.

Hopefully an ambulance. Thank you. Hey, hello. That was good. What percentage of non-binary people reported being misgendered at work? Not me. No.

Well, I actually work for myself and I often do misgender myself, I have to take myself to HR, which is me just in a wig. How many, actually very interestingly I wrote about this recently about workplace discrimination and I know that across LGBT plus people on mass 40% are fearful of coming out at work. So based on that stat, if we do some extrapolation, I'm gonna say 70%. Yeah, I say like 60, maybe 60.

I'm quite high there. Well, actually the answer is 35%, but I think the key word here is reported. So that's how many people have reported being misgendered to HR. Okay. Whereas I'm sure it happens a lot more without being reported probably you're probably closer to the stat but I don't have that one written down. Sure, sure tough. Okay. Like because that means I'd have to tell on myself if I did it. Yeah. Self-employed. You know if I wake up on Monday and I see Jamie's put me in for a 15 minute sit down, we've got to ask why. What have I done?

Something alright out there. Okay. Final one on my card. Number three, how long have non-binary people been around? I'm going to say it's 28 years because that's how old I am. Okay. And nothing existed before that. I invented it. I think it's way earlier than we think. But am I thinking, Victorians are more thinking Egyptians, am I thinking BC? You think the non-binary people were building the temples? It's possible. They were at work. Am I wrong? The pyramids. No, I mean, they were doing eye makeup.

Everyone had a bit of liner on. See, there's a lot that we don't know about it, but I guess it wasn't written on the walls. Cleopatra was a ZZam. No, don't know. This is a bold statement, and this could be a clip that you take to social media, but Jesus was the non-minor.

I'm so fucking gullible, it's jarring. Yeah, look at that hair. Yeah, I know. Hello. No, I'm going to say like the Romans, you know, the Greeks, they were a bit fruity. So I'm going to say whenever that was. I don't actually know when that was. Yeah, I don't know dates.

So you're both pretty much right, but even earlier. So thousands of years since ancient times and across loads of different cultures. So I'll give you some examples from the Two-Spirit people in indigenous North America. Then there's also the Hydras in South Asia. There's gender diverse priests in ancient Mesopotamia. I am not very- Priests? Priests. In ancient Mesopotamia. The term non-binary is obviously more modern, which gained popularity in the 1900s, 2000s,

but the identity itself is ancient. Wow. Well, you know. Is that a read? I'm ancient. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great. No, I love that.

I thought it just started when... 1997. This is the thing, and I think that. Yeah. I thought it just started when 1997. This is the thing and I think that's a big argument with the boomers is like, oh, this has just come around five minutes ago. Why is everyone claiming this and that? Actually no. Love it. Yeah. Thanks Cleopatra.

Nice. I'm done on my card. Okay. So what ratio of young people in the UK identify as non-binary or gender fluid? Interesting. What would you identify as young? It says ages 13 to 25. Right, so I'm old. No.

I would be in the overs. I would be with Wagner and Reiland. So... That's a good place to be. Okay, I think a lot. I know that young people tend to be a bit more exploratory. I'm gonna say a solid six out of 10. Ooh, that's quite a lot actually, rewind. So 10 people in a room and they've all got blue hair.

How many of them are non-binary? 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. I'm gonna say four out of 10. Okay. I'm gonna go with three. Three out of ten. So

the answer is one in 20. The source was Just Like Us, a UK LGBTQ plus charity. But actually, 42% of people in Gen Z, 13 to 25 year olds, know someone who uses gender neutral pronouns like they them. That's a lot actually. That's a lot. Think about when I was at school. I don't think the word was even really being used. No.

Only as I've come into a workplace have I understood like, yeah, non-binary is a term. I mean, lots of words were being used, but they weren't non-binary. Love that 42% for you, you're really doing something. Yeah, it's exciting. It's pretty cool.

Who knows what the future will look like? Thank you so much for coming on, Jamie. I've had a lovely time. I know you've come into this with a kind of maybe a grown point of view that you don't want your whole identity to be ironically talking about being non-binary, but I think it's conversations like these that will make it more the norm.

Yeah, exactly. And I think hearing people say, you know, like being able to be confident enough now in my old age to say things like, you're not old. But like in my career, you know, like to be to know that there are lots of different things that I can do and, and that the non-binary community can do as well as talk about it and educate in their own way. It's like I said to you, off air, which will now be brought on air.

Thank you. That I like to think of educating people as like, when you hide medicine in your dog's food. Not calling me a dog. No, I'm not calling me medicine. But you know know like having conversations but also being a bit silly, being a bit funny, yeah being you know beautiful absolutely stunning, intelligent yeah like people my one piece of advice I

always say take what you like leave the rest. It's applicable to this conversation it's applicable to a buffet. Love it well thank you so much Jamie. We have a little cheer please. And where can everyone find you on your socials? At Jamie underscore Windust on Instagram, TikTok, Letterboxd, wherever you would like. Thank you everyone for watching. We'll see you next week. Bye. watching we'll see you next week!