Tea at Four - "My prison pen pal turned into my fiance” - how to send nudes, set boundaries and be intimate as a prison girlfriend

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Lauren and Christie are joined this week by Katie, who’s prison pen-pal turned into her boyfriend. Her unconventional love story started with her writing letters to American prisons, and she ended up falling in love.  Katie and Danny don’t let the distance or the bars keep them apart, and the girls get all the goss on how they do it. From the how-to’s of sending nudes in prison, to the story of their virtual engagement… Follow katie on TikTok @katiethenextchapter If you have any confessions or dilemmas, please send into [e-mail]

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as a prison girlfriend? We also got engaged. Before meeting meeting have you been able to be intimate with a partner in jail? They might literally be asking their mum to send their nudes for you, yeah. Hi guys, welcome back to T out 4, I'm Christy and I'm Lauren and this is the podcast where we talk all things that normally stay in the group chats. For today's episode, we have an extremely special guest. We are joined by a girl who's pen pal from America in prison turned into her boyfriend.

Everyone meet Katie. Woo! Katie, Katie, Katie, Katie! Did you mind that intro? Yeah. Let's go with it. Love it. So we essentially found you on TikTok.

You've documented your journey of, you know, life as a prison girlfriend. Can we ask you how you met him? What's his name? Give us some context. Yeah, of course. So my partner's name is Danny. So I met him through a pen pal site.

So I probably should start by saying like, I wasn't like looking on there for a partner. Wouldn't recommend doing that. But I basically came across the pen pal site and kind of a long story short, I had a friend in England that had been in prison previously. And if this was like probably about eight years ago,

he'd said to me like, oh, I wish we'd known each other then because it would have been really nice to have someone to write to. And that kind of stuck with me. I didn't do anything with that information. It was just like, oh, that's nice. And then kind of got on with my life.

And then I saw sort of back end of 2020 came across on TikTok videos of people writing using these Pempar sites. It was a thing in lockdown, right? It was a thing in lockdown. I think probably people had a lot of time on their hands. I don't know, I'll write to a man in prison. Yeah, obviously that's the normal thought pattern. But yeah, so with kind of what my friend had had said previously in my mind, I just kind of went for a little scope out and me and my friend Dan from work.

OK. I got him involved in my tomfoolery because you can never do anything on your own. So we would literally just like have a little look on the website or whatever. And I think I'm going to write to a few people. So we had like a whole criteria. Right. Because we decided we probably shouldn't write to murderers a few people. So we had like a whole criteria because we decided we probably shouldn't write to murderers just in case. Love that was a probably. Yeah, you both looked at each other like, yeah, probably don't do that. Yeah, it was

one of those to be fair. So thank you, Dan, for keeping me in line, kind of. But yeah, so that's essentially in a nutshell how I ended up on the penpal site, how I ended up being like, okay, I'm going to write to a few people. And I remember coming across Danny's profile. He had like a couple of pictures of himself and I thought he was nice looking guy, I don't get me wrong. But I did think he was giving off short king vibes and I'm five foot eleven. Right. So I'm immediately was not thinking oh partner I was just thinking oh yeah that's right but it was more what he'd written about himself. Okay. So he had written like this whole passage about what he was kind of looking for in someone they'd be writing to and he was very articulate. He enjoyed music and I do music as well.

And we had like different things that I thought, oh, actually I think we could like have a conversation at least maybe he would be a good person to write to. And I did write to, I think probably about three or four people initially. So it was really probably just thought I was doing like a nice thing for someone like, oh, I've got a bit of spare time, like know someone that's been in that situation before let me just you know and in

my head I kind of did think it would be like send a little letter off and like in a month maybe I'll get like a little letter back or something like that um and that was a big misconception of mine because it isn't like that at all. I did actually go off literally to the post office with my little handwritten, mate, absolutely. So it was fully postal service. Well, it was on my end until I got a reply and then realized that they in fact have tablets

and that they can email. It's actually 2024. Wow. And I'm thinking I'm gonna get these little, thought I was in the notebook or something. I was gonna say 2020, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would've assumed the same.

Yeah, so I just thought it was like really wholesome, well maybe not wholesome is probably the wrong word, isn't it, to be writing a felon in a different country. But as wholesome as that gets, I thought it was gonna be that, but it wasn't. Right. So anyway, I had to like, wrote, sent my little letters off, got like a few replies and they

all sort of came back at different points, I guess, however quick their prisons move with mail or whatever. And so when Danny like came back to me, he was saying that, oh, you can speak on the email system. So immediately we just started emailing them. We got on really well. Like we would have, at the time they had a different system to the system that they have now.

It's even more advanced now. But it was basically like kind of like an old fashioned email like where you can have like, I don't know, like 2000 characters or something. So we were like filling all of these, it's very polite to begin with like, oh hello, what do you do? I was like telling her about my job

and I have a dog called Pablo. It was just very like tame to be honest with you to begin with. And then, yeah, after we'd be back and forth on emails constantly. And you know when someone, I think it's just like a very normal interaction in a lot of ways. If you take the prison aspect away from it, it's literally normal interaction in a lot of ways. If you take the prison aspect away from it, it's literally just like speaking to anyone else. So you know, like, say if you were on a dating app or something like that,

and you kind of click with somebody, you think, oh, okay, the conversation's flowing. It was like that. So then after that, he was sort of like, well, we can call, you know, like I could call you if you'd like. So I'm like, okay. So then we went for the phone calls and so he could call

and then we're speaking on the phone. And so already it had gotten way ahead of my little. How much time was this? Between sort of writing him initially. So I would say it was probably about a month until I heard back from him from when I initially wrote to him. And then from hearing back from him,

I would say probably about a week and we were emailing and having phone calls then. Cause I mean, you do move quite, it moves quite quickly. You're speaking a lot. So yeah. And then we would talk all the time on the phone and that's when I think it's easy to sort of catch feelings then.

But then we had the difficult situation of, he didn't know what I looked like. So we're having these conversations and we're both, there's a bit of a spark, right? And- Can you not do email attachments? No, no, it wasn't quite, you can now. I'm caught up. But at the No, no, it wasn't quite, you can now. You've caught up.

But at the time, no, you couldn't. So if I wanted to send him pictures, I literally, guys, I literally had to go get like pictures of myself printed, which by the way, is like the most cringey thing you can ever do in today's day and age. I remember just going into Tesco's, like just collecting your printouts of selfies of yourself.

So you can put them in the post to the felon that you're speaking to in America. Yeah, it's very surreal situation. But yes, then I had to select some pictures of myself to send off to him. But I'd seen two pictures of him on the website. I mean, those granted were probably a while back, but I had an idea of what he looked like.

So when the sparks started flying, and by the way, he wasn't a short king, he was six foot three. So as soon as he said that, I was like, damn. What have I got myself into? So yeah, so sent my pictures off, but he was impatient and he couldn't wait. So what happened then was he would go to classes at prison, they would have school

and they do different classes and different things. And so his teacher would often put things on YouTube, like music wise for them to listen to. So he was quite cunning and he was quite sly. And he said like, oh, I've heard, because I do music, and he knew that I would have music on YouTube, although I hadn't told him what to search for to get what he was looking for.

He said, oh, I've heard of this artist, would you mind just putting them on? So what he actually got was a video of me performing from like 10 years previously with blonde hair and black lipstick, which was not the look I would have chosen. It wasn't the look I would have chosen for him to see, but it was quite smart.

So I get a phone call, it's like, I've seen you. It's like, I've seen you. I had my teacher put it on YouTube and I'm like, wait, what did you see then? Because I'm thinking this is quite different back there for reference. It wasn't a look, I don't think. But he was like, no, no, I really like you.

Yeah, he thought it was great. We still have contention over that to this day. I'm like, I've just waited for the pictures, could you? To be fair though, like that's the situation any normal person would get in with digital footprints are out there to be found. Let's just say that. Yeah, I learned hard that day.

But my digital footprint. Oh my god. So you said you were also talking to other people in a platonic way. At what point did those kind of other horsemen fall away? So when... She said horsemen, I was like wait wait, hold on, wait a second! Girl! The roster? No, I'm kidding.

There was no roster! It was all just, yeah, honestly... I think, you know, if you get on with someone or you don't get on with someone, I think I probably had like a couple of polite conversations with them, but it wasn't, it didn't ever go past that. I did hear back from one of them again, cause sometimes like, I guess like anyone, if you don't reply to them, they'll persist.

So I did hear back from one of them a bit later, but again, it was just friendly conversations, but as soon as anything sort of turned romantic between myself and Dani, even if it was just friendly, I wasn't gonna continue. So with your pen pals, were they from the same prisons or like completely, okay. Yeah, no, that could get a bit.

That could get a bit, shit. Are you mustin' fighting in the lunch hall? The girl is mine, the girl is mine. I saw her on YouTube. I saw her on YouTube, have you? Have you seen her? Yeah, oh my God. Oh my gosh.

So I guess one thing that isn't mentioned in this going back and forth, well, what point did you kind of ask or did he mention about what he was in for and how long for? So it's on the website. So you can actually see what they're in for on the website. So that's when me and my friend Dan can actually see what they're in for on the website.

So that's when me and my friend Dan set our little stall out of what was okay and what wasn't okay. We decided, this sounds so stupid, like saying it out loud that we made a criteria, but we decided that anything kind of worse than armed robbery should probably be a no. So lucky for Danny, he's in for armed robbery. So he just slipped into that category.

But no, so I knew that going in that he was, that's what his crimes listed as. It's actually listed as a party to a crime of armed robbery which effectively, I'm sure I will get someone saying that I've explained this incorrectly and I try my best to explain it, but it would be effectively like, if us three went somewhere and I armed robbed someone,

you could be done for that too effectively, or if they felt that you had any- Guilty by association. Kind of, it's kind of, yeah, but maybe slightly more, like you probably had a little bit of intent, but you didn't actually do the- Commit the crime. Commit the crime.

Yeah, right. So not that it makes it okay, but still. I knew going into it that that's what he was in prison for, and I knew what his sentence length was as well, going into it. But obviously then when you do get to know each other, you do obviously have those conversations where he'll break down exactly what happened.

And I think circumstances are quite important with those sorts of things because you can either be like an absolutely like raging armed robber, or you can be in a bad situation, or there can be so many different ways that that goes down. But yeah, it was something that we spoke about quite quickly because obviously I wanted to know

what the deal was with that. Yeah, but yes, I did know that going in. So by the time he gets out, he'll have done eight years for that, which is quite a long time. Their sentences over there are quite long compared to over here. Yeah, what made you decide to write

to an American prisoner over a UK one? Simply because I don't think there are any PemPow websites or anything like that in the UK. Not that I've ever come across still to this day. I'm pretty sure, at least by now, we're sharing stuff online that someone probably would have said, no, there is actually. See, I don't think there is that sort of system over here.

It would be more like you'd have to know someone. Whereas over there, there's loads. There's loads of like different pen pal sites and all of that kind of thing. And also I think probably because initially when I was writing to him, it didn't matter where he was anyway, because it wasn't gonna be, I just thought it was like a nice thing to do.

So it could have been down the road, it could have been across the world. Like it really didn't make any difference. Yeah. Only it does there. Yeah. Can I ask, I guess, so in 2024, you obviously started writing to each other in

2020. What does like a typical day in the life look like for you as a prison girlfriend and then his life over there? Like, how do you get in contact? What is the first message of the day? When is the last? How often can you talk? Yeah. So I'd say it's changed a lot throughout the course of our relationship. So as their systems have upgraded and as their technology's upgraded, it's quite different now than what it was at the beginning. At the beginning, he would, they would bring like a physical phone round to their cells every day.

And he'd probably get the phone for like, maybe like an hour, an hour and a half. And it would be, but you wouldn't know when. And that was really hard because it's like, if I'm free, I'll answer, if I'm not, I can't. They are six hours behind us. So luckily, most of the time I would have finished work by that time anyway, so it would be like in the evening.

Whereas now they have like a little tablet, a bit like an iPad and they can do certain things on there. So they can send messages on there now, they're a bit more kind of like iMessages in the quite instant and quite short, and I can send pictures to him, he can't send pictures back though. And he can make calls from there.

And the calls that he makes from his tablet now, they're 20 minutes long, and then they have to wait 20 minutes in between each call. But effectively, apart from that, they could, you can just ring all day. Oh, wow. Yeah. Not that he does,

because I think that would be overkill for the both of us. Is there like Wi-Fi, or is it all like online? Yeah, they've got Wi-Fi, yeah. But it's like, if you sort of think back to when you were at school, you know that like restricted internet. Internet.

Yeah, yeah. That intranet or whatever they call it. I think it's kind of like that. So they can do certain things on there, but they can't actually go on the internet. They can't, although they click on articles of like reading me Amazon's top 10 Christmas gifts. And I'm like, where are you reading this from?

But a typical day to answer your question, I could hear from him probably as early as 8 a.m. for him, which is about 2 p.m. for me. So, and he can just like, either send a message. I'll usually let him know, like, if my work day's busy, if I've got like a lot of meetings or anything like that, I can let him know when I'll be free and when I won't so he knows when to call.

And then, yeah, we can just take it as we go really. We'll do like little movie nights often as well. So on their tablets they have like like a monthly subscription service for films and they have a monthly subscription service for music as well. Kind of like Spotify and Netflix, but not. Yeah, not quite as good. So like, he'll tell me like, we'll pick a category of film and like he'll tell me what the options are. And then we'll like start the film at the same time.

I know. It's giving lockdown a next big fight. Yes, exactly like that. We'll start the film and then halfway through he'll call and we'll have like a little debrief. And then at the end we'll have another little debrief. Yeah. It was the last film you watched together?

It was something on my birthday but I can't even remember what the film was called. It wasn't very good. Oh. No, it was in the rom-com section but I think it was like, you know, one of those like weird little rom-coms that like maybe like made by the Hallmark channel.

Hallmark, oh yeah. I lowkey love, but at the same time this one wasn't it. Yeah, it's a bit hit or miss. weird little rom-coms that like maybe like made by the Hallmark channel. Hallmark? Oh, not. Chiloki Love, but at the same time this one wasn't it. Yeah, it's a bit hit or miss. It was a miss, but we watched it. Oh. Yeah, but we watched, do we watched, is it Catch Me If You Can? Okay.

We watched that like last, remember that last week, the week before. Wasn't that about criminal? It was about criminal, yeah. Oh, it was. Oh, that's me. Quite a bit. Yes. Oh my God. Wow.

Romantic prison film. Does he have a cellmate? So he used to, yeah. So when I first met him, he had a cellmate and pretty much through the first couple of years, well, maybe like first almost three years of the relationship, like on and off. Being in a single cell used to be deemed like a privilege.

I laugh because it's like so not a privilege, is it? But like for them, it's a privilege. Whereas then last year, there was something quite serious that went on with the prison and the prison went on lockdown for over a year. Yeah. And during that course of time, like loads of things kind of came out that weren't supposed to

be happening at the prison. And one of those was that the cell sizes were actually legally too small for them to have two people in them. So then they were mandated to move everyone into single cells and to move a certain amount of people out of that prison. So he's in a single cell now, they all are in his prison in single cells now. What do you mean by the prison went on lockdown? So when the prison goes on lockdown, it effectively means that they are locked in a cell 24 hours a day and like any sort of recreation or visiting or school

or any movement is basically restricted. So a lockdown would usually be like temporary measure. Like for instance, things happen there often like a staff member could get attacked or something like that could happen. And what they would usually do is lock down the prison so everyone's kept in the same place until they can resolve whatever is going on. Sometimes it can be a few hours, sometimes it can be a few days. So this lockdown was because they were short staffed and it went on for over a year. And so basically they were in their cells 24 hours a day.

They were having one shower a week. They were having- One shower a week? One shower a week. They were fed peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, which like peanut butter and jam sandwiches, three times a day for meals for like months on end. It was really, it was really bad.

It was like all over like the national news. How'd you deal with that as a partner? That was, I think probably one of the worst things that we have been through in the time that we've been together just because I always noticed the difference in Danny, he's just having a bad day or whatever and then he gets to go to rec, which is like basically adult playtime.

So like if he gets to go do that for a couple of hours then he comes back, he's always in such a better head space. So it mentally really, really, really took its toll on him. And I think that was really hard to deal with because there's absolutely nothing that you can do apart from just be there for them. It was really draining, draining on both of us to be honest with you.

And then on top of that, not being able to have things like your visits or your video visits and yeah. Well, we should probably talk about that. Yeah. So you have obviously met. What was that first meeting like? Sorry, feel free to take as long as you need. Yeah, so our first meeting,

so I went over in in November of 2021. And basically because of COVID, the borders were still shut when we met, like the American USA borders. So even if I'd wanted to go over there, like quite quickly, I couldn't have done. And it's basically as soon as the borders like opened, I think it was like the beginning of November

or like October, something like that, literally like booked my ticket and was like, yeah, I'm gonna go see him. At this point, were you guys boyfriend and girlfriend? Yes. So who made the first move? Did he? So, I think it was like a bit,

sounds like a cop out, doesn't it? But like, I think it was like a bit of both. Okay. Because I mean, he definitely had implied, like said, you know, would ask certain questions and would be flirty or whatever. We have definitely got our flirt on. And I think we both kind of identified

that we did like each other, but then because of the whole picture thing, realistically, it sounds awful, doesn't it? But like, if you don't, like I wanted more pictures of him. He wanted to see what I looked like. We kind of just like waited. But I kind of feel like, yeah, I mean, he's a little bit shallow, but at the same time,

like I think you do have to find the person that you're with attractive. And if you're gonna fly across the room. Yeah, exactly. And to be honest, if you didn't find me attractive, I wouldn't want to be with him. Of course. So it did matter at the same time.

So kind of after that, and we were both like, okay, we both fancy each other then. So. Nice. How was it picking those photos that you sent to him? I'd be shitting it. Picking the pictures? Yeah.

Mate, I don't know. Like, I honestly don't know, but I didn't even matter in the end, did it? Cause he went off looking on YouTube for videos from 10 years ago. So I shouldn't know, but I didn't even matter in the end, did it? Cause it went off looking on YouTube for videos from 10 years ago. So I shouldn't have even bothered. Oh, that's all right. So yeah, between then boyfriend and girlfriend

and you're like, I'm booking a ticket. Yeah, and then, well, no, actually we kind of jumped in a little bit further than that. Yeah, so we're both in a girlfriend and then we also got engaged. Oh, before meeting? Yeah. Over the... Yeah. So you were... Yeah. Oh. So you did Married at First Sight but not First Sight type of Love is Blind? Yeah, we basically did Love is Blind. We basically were like...

So you're the main creator and we've got this at home. I'm like, can you come through? I was just playing Love is Blind at home basically. Wow. Yeah, so that in hindsight, probably should have waited. I mean, I think it would have had the same outcome anyway, but in hindsight, what was I doing? Don't know.

What do you mean? Actually, what were you doing? Don't know. Well, what do you mean? Actually, what were you doing? Were you just at work or? Well, I mean, I have to be fair. So just a random evening? What was the? I think it was just like a random evening. Yeah, and he was like, basically said,

like, I want to marry you. And then I was a bit like, and then he sent me like loads of cards and things like that, like basically like saying he wanted to marry me. And then he did proposed again like loads of cards and things like that, like basically like saying you wanted to marry me. And then he did proposed again on like a video visit. Wow. Yeah.

Is it one knee or? Well, they're technically not allowed to move off the seat, so. Oh. So just the stuff. If I could imagine. Imagine I'm on one knee. Katie.

Would you take my head? Yeah. That's exactly how it went. You're giving me a flashback. Oh my God. Just move the thing down. I'd be going to the floor like this. Were you just like, are there people around as well?

Yeah. Does he have to be supervised then? So at that point for video visits, it was like in like a classroom. So if you kind of picture like back at high school, like the IT classroom, it kind of looked like that. Right. Romantic. Always where you've wanted to get proposed to. Were you like in your pyjamas like? No because at that point I would get quite glammed up for video. Now I would be in my pyjamas whereas like back then I was like doing a full beat

before the video was this. But yeah, so we got engaged and that, so I mean, when I look back at it now, cause it has been like almost four years, all of this, I do think to myself like, what was the rush? Like we didn't really need to rush into all of that, we could have waited, but it's really hard to explain. And the kind of the best way I can explain it is,

you know when you watch Love Island? Yeah. And you know like how they're like, oh, you don't understand it. Like it's like a different world. Like you cut off from everything and it's like, you can move really fast and seven days feels like a year in here.

They love that line. Yeah, they do love that line. But it's kind of like that. Like it feels like that because it's like you're just talking. I think if you compare it to a relationship in the real world, you might first week, you might've gone on a date. And then you might be like arranging another date

for like a week or so's time. Everything moves a lot more slowly. Whereas because you just talk, all you have is talking. So you're writing letters to each other, you're writing emails to each other, you're on the phone, you're doing video visits. Like it does just move quickly.

And I think something that I've noticed in the community, if you like, is that that's a recurring theme. And so some people would be like, that's just prison talk, they just wanna lock you down and whatever. And I think there is some validity to that in certain situations, sure.

I guess you're more like emotionally invested. Yeah. Yeah, I do feel like, cause a lot of the time people do say that you could easily cheat emotionally. Cause obviously it's like you talking to somebody, catching feelings that way. So there's like seeing them physically. Yeah. I mean, I guess I have to ask like

your previous relationships, do you have a bad boys or? Is it been a real kind of thing? No, this is the thing, like I wouldn't really say like, no, not intentionally, like some of them turned out to be not that nice, but it wasn't like, yeah, going for a criminal record or anything like that. No, it wasn't like something that I've ever really gone for, no.

How do your love languages differ at home versus with a person in prison? Oh, so do you mean, for instance, if I'm quite a tactile person, how does that play out with him? I think it's, that one's hard because I think there were always so many things that we still won't know until he gets out.

So, I mean, you kind of vocalize everything. So like, for instance, if like you're wanting to see, like with your compatible, like I know he's a very touchy feely person. I'm not apart from with a partner. So I'm not really like a touchy feely person that hugs all my friends all the time, but with a partner, I would.

But you talk about all of those things. So in a lot of ways, it's like you kind of have to know yourself very well to be able to know if you're compatible. So basically everything kind of gets described and vocalized. So when you met, could you touch the first time? Yeah, oh yeah, so I was telling you how it was

when I met him, wasn't I? So yeah, so we were technically engaged at this point, but I actually don't have a ring. So am I engaged if I don't have a ring? Yeah. I still have a ring so am I engaged if I don't have a ring? Yeah. I'd still like a ring. You could do it again. No he has said that he wants to do it again properly and I'm like good because I would also like one that wasn't on a video call.

Zoom. Yeah proper yeah it's not how I imagined any of this going down. But yeah so when I first went to meet him, I mean, I'd never been to a prison in my life. I don't think I'd ever even seen a prison, to be honest with you. I didn't really know what to expect. I think I was quite excited, but also nervous.

And the only way I can sort of relate it to is it's like similar to like going on like a first date where you kind of, oh, hope he thinks I look like my pictures. Kind of like going on like a first date where you kind of, oh, hope you think this will look like my pictures. Kind of like that. We'd obviously already had the video calls. So, and you kind of think you've got a bit more stability than just going in completely blind.

But yeah, very sort of nervous and excited. The whole thing was a bit surreal, but as soon as I got there, you have to go through like a metal detector. You're only allowed to wear like certain things and you're not allowed to wear certain things. In visits, you can have like a kiss and a hug at the beginning and a kiss and a hug at the end.

So we did have a kiss, but like, it was like a pack because I mean, at that point I don't really know you. because I mean, that, but I don't really know you. I'm engaged to you, but I don't really know you. I'm not really certain I'm talking to you yet. So we had like a kiss and a hug and then you can like hold hands and stuff like that. And there's like guards everywhere.

And like, if for instance, if you took too long with your kiss or your hug, they would tell you about it. If you holding hands for too long or anything like that, they would tell you about it if you hold in hands for too long or anything like that they would tell you about it and I don't think we've gotten into trouble ever for that though so yeah at the end we definitely had a longer kiss than the beginning though. Really? Was it good? It was. It was. That's nice. It's like really any other like first time. It's kind of like, yeah. Except for the fact like you're in a prison. Yeah, and we got food out of a vending machine.

How many times have you done that since that first time? I've had quite a few visits with him now. I don't know the actual number. Maybe close to like 10, 15 visits or something like that. Not like trips, like visits in total. Probably we would have had more if it wasn't for the lockdown. How many times can you go in a week

when you're staying over there? So that's changed as well from the beginning. So when we first met, they could have three visits a week. Then it went down to two visits a week and then now it's one visit a week. Yeah. Oh, that's shit. Yeah. Yeah then now it's one visit a week. Yeah. Oh, that's shit. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's not great. Whereas like at first it used to be like three visits. I think it used to be like three hours each time as well you'd go. And because I would come from so far away, you could have what each time I went, you could have one visit that was an extended visit.

It would be like double the length of a normal visit. So it kind of varies, whereas, yeah, now no one gets anything there, but that's all off of the back of the lockdown and the short staffing and that kind of thing, which is a long way for people to travel, even within the States, because you kind of got to think some people

might be coming from like, I don't know, Texas or somewhere, just to visit like a partner or a brother, and it's still a long way to go. So yeah, but that very first trip I went on, I was meant to have two visits and the day before I was due to fly out, they actually canceled the second visit because they just said they weren't doing visits that day anymore. And I literally had said, I was on the phone to one of those I was literally like I'm coming from England and she just went ma'am he's in prison for a reason oh I was oh thank you for pointing that out I was unaware thank you no way he's in prison is he? I think it doesn't help anyone that does it but yeah the staff

couldn't be very unpleasant. Well, I guess, yes, worth mentioning, we were possibly going to be calling Danny in this episode, but unfortunately something has come up, which means that he no longer has access to his tablet. His tablet. No. But can we ask you a couple of the questions

that we were gonna ask him? Absolutely, yes. So we would have asked him talking us through your first meeting what did you wear? I wore some blue like high-waisted jeans and um just like a black t-shirt. I think a lot a lot of the times the outfits it's like not what you'd want to wear but you've just got to be very covered up. I think I did actually go in with like a pink t-shirt on and they made me change that. To a black. I think it was tucked into my jeans they thought it was gonna come out they wanted a longer t-shirt on. Oh they said no skin. They said nothing you have nothing and like it. Oh my God. And I mean, I don't know how this goes. Is he wearing his?

So they were like all green outfits basically. Okay. Yeah, it's not, yeah. It's not a nice green either. At least it's not orange. It's not like your jumper. Oh. Oh.

It's like the plant behind you. With a bit dinger. Yeah. So they kind of have like a, trying to find the best way to describe it. The trousers are like, you know, like hospital scrub trousers. Oh.

Yeah. Sexy. And the tops like a, just like a button down shirt. And then they used to be able to wear their trainers, whereas now they make them wear like, basically like walking boots. Wow. So they basically do their most

to make them look really attractive. Delicious. Yeah. Oh wow. So on all of the pictures. Oh good, yeah, so you had pictures when you were here. You can have pictures on visits, yes. Oh.

So, but it depends if they've got a camera there and it depends if the camera's working. It's the prison's camera. Prison on a digital camera. They get a digital camera out and there'll be an inmate, that's job it is, to take the pictures. Oh, it's an inmate, not even a staff member.

Yeah, it's not even a staff, it's an inmate. So it will be his job to take the pictures. Yeah. I've got a story about that actually, if you want, quickly. Please, please. Yeah, please, because you're in my head. I'm so intrigued by this. I've got a story about that actually, if you want. Please, please. Yeah, I'm so intrigued by this. Cause I watch a lot of like prison breaking stuff.

Like, you know, some inmates are very jealous. Imagine like you're taking a picture, your fingers are gonna be nice. And then the inmates like, well, move it up. Yeah, they do. Really? They sabotage. Can you imagine? They do it on purpose, I don't know.

Oh my God, if you've got a really shit photo to take, that would piss me off. Like, if that were over the lens. Excuse me? So you you've got a really shit photo to take that would piss me off. Like if that were over the lens. Excuse me. So you get, I think you're allowed to take, I'm trying to remember because it's been a while since I've been. I think it's, there are five pictures per visit.

So you basically get taken on there. They have to let them know before the visit. They have to put a slip in to say, hello, I will be taking pictures, I want pictures today. And they take the money off their books, which is like their account. So they have to already have the money on their side for those you can't just say, here's $10.

It has to come off of his account. So then they'll just call you up when it's your turn. And it's like, got like a back backdrop kind of thing. Like it looks like like kind of like a shitty like prom picture or something. Like it's weird. And so, and the set rules as well for your pictures. So yeah, again, those rules have changed a little bit

over the time that we've been together. But now you're not allowed to like hold hands or anything on a picture. I think, I'm guessing that's probably because maybe people have tried to pass things between themselves. I guess everything has some sort of, someone's fucked it up for everyone else reason behind it. But at the first one we could have like our arms around each other and stuff, which was nice.

Did you have that on your first meeting? Do you have a? We had pictures pretty much straight away, yeah, as well. So like, hi, nice to meet you. They do that. You're not allowed to do that. Oh, you want no peace? No, they'd be like gang sign.

Oh! Could be a gang sign. You can't do that. But that's peace. You can't do hand symbols. Could be a gang sign. Really? They'd be sending you out.

You'd be, yeah, you'd be off home. Oh my gosh. I'd be, oh, you'd be off home. Oh my gosh. I'd be, oh, I know, I love a cheeky. Yeah, I love. So yeah, so it's an inmate that will take the pictures for you. Okay. You can, and like, he'll show you them as well.

So like, you can be like, yeah, okay. And then there was this one visit we were on. This wasn't our first visit. And there was, the guy that was taking the pictures was teaching another inmate how to take pictures. Bear in mind, this dude's probably been in prison, I'm gonna say probably like 10 to 20 years. Like he had no idea how to work a digital camera.

Like at all. At all. That's not who you were. At all. Right, so every picture that he was taking was blurry, but it wasn't his fault. And you could see he was getting quite stressed out about it.

So it was kind of like, we were calm. We were patient with it. And we were just like, just go again, just go again. Then we had like an officer sat in a booth to the left and she basically said that we were doing it on purpose and that we kept asking for new pictures to be taken and that we were treating it like our own personal photo shoot,

which technically actually is scary. Yeah. I've actually paid for this. I've actually paid for it. Yay. Thank you. Yeah, the customer's always right, okay. I think I'll get my pictures.

So anyway, she took our pictures off of us and said that we weren't allowed to have them. And then they had to get signed over to like a higher up or something. And basically the note she'd written on them got given to Danny when he got given them back. And she'd written on that, he said this is for his TikTok business

or something like that, which he didn't say because I was stood next to him. So basically she was super bothered that we might post pictures of ourselves that I paid for on my own social media. It's none of her business. It was none of her business but she made it her business. But this is kind of like a recurring theme. They very much don't like the TikTok account. They very much don't like anyone that will speak out about things and at the end of the day,

unfortunately there is a lot that goes on there. Last year, the warden of the prison, and I believe it, I believe it might, I might be wrong, was about seven members of staff got arrested and charged. Can only imagine like, how does that make you feel? Cause I can just like, obviously your partner's in prison and like already he's in a situation where he can't, he's not free to do things that he wants to do,

but then also you don't also don't wanna affect. Don't wanna poke the bear. There you go. Yeah. So how does that feel to you like mentally? Like how do you cope through that? It's been a challenge. Cause I think, you like mentally, how do you cope through that? It's been a challenge, because I think especially for Danny, like when he's like, you have a platform

and okay, it might not be the biggest platform in the world, but it is a platform for someone that has nothing usually. So he would very much, I think like me to be much more outspoken on it than I am. Oh, he would like you to. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. Because he kind of feels like he can handle whatever comes at him on that side.

Whereas no matter how many times he says that, I'm always really like, for instance, I spoke out about the lockdown. I spoke out like, you know, they're getting one shower a week. They're getting like not fed properly, all of these things I will speak about because it's something that needed to be spoken about.

But then there's certain things that goes on in there that might not necessarily be out there on like a more wider public level. And I am loathed to be the one that's gonna stand there and say, hey, this is happening, this is happening. Because I, even on the off chance that it might make something more difficult for him,

I don't wanna take that risk. Whereas he does. And that's something that we've definitely butted heads on before because he just feels like it's the right thing to do. And I like yeah but also they're kind of in control of you for the next however long. Do you know how long? Yeah so he his latest release date is November next year so this time next year at the very latest he'll be home yeah. And where's home Is he wanting to stay in America? So he can't come here.

Okay. So I think it's, if you've been in prison, I believe that it's over four years overseas. You can't like go through immigration and move to England. Okay. So he would be over there. And I mean, when he comes home, I will go over there and visit

and then just see how things go on the outside. And then obviously if everything works out, well, I would then look at taking that step and probably moving over there. But definitely want to just see how everything goes first. And also I think he needs to have a bit of breathing space when he gets out. I feel like,

because if we're looking at the sort of dating analogy, we haven't technically dated, right? So we might've been together for almost four years. But when he gets out, we'll be doing a lot of firsts together. So we'll go on our first dates and things like that. And as much as we have been together for a long time, I don't want it to feel like, oh, we just went on our first date,

but we're also living together and we're getting married next week. And also him adapting to life outside of prison on top of that. And all of those stresses, I just feel like it would be nice to enjoy that side of things. Without as well, without me breathing down his neck as well. I think he needs to have a chance to do things on his own. Like make, not necessarily say make mistakes, maybe don't do that. That's probably got you down to the first place.

But like, you know, like go find a job, go to work, like get your own apartment, like these sorts of things. Does he have a job in the prison? No. Does it work like that? It does work like that, but there's quite long wait lists for jobs. So he's applied for jobs there before.

So usually if they go to school, they don't usually have a job as well. So for the first couple of years we were together, he was finishing off some courses that he was doing in there. And so he doesn't go to school anymore, he's done all of that. I guess I have a question as someone that really, truly knows nothing about how the system

works. Do you have a lot of people asking, and maybe rightfully so, do you fund his lifestyle in there if he can't work? How does the money system work? Yeah, so they have ways of making money in there, even if they don't have a job. So certain things, they'll get a tiny bit amount of money on their books. I think it's like weekly, yeah, it's weekly. And that's just like really for those probably that don't have any money to like send messages or make calls and those sorts of things.

They'll get a couple of free calls as well. They can make money, for instance, they can buy like food bags there. So like off of commissary but you have to when you order them they come like two weeks they take two weeks to come so for instance if you've ordered a load of those and then someone wants one now you can mark that up and sell it for more basically so he's really good at chess he like plays people at chess for money. Yeah. Yeah.

Smart guy. He's a smart guy. And then they'll do other things as well. Like he braids hair sometimes for money too. But at the same time, I do also help him out. I pay for all of our phone calls. I wouldn't say, I don't put regular money on his books or anything like that.

So I'll pay for our phone calls. And then other than that, it's really just as and when he needs things. So say for instance, he needed some new socks or something like that. Like I will get him the socks. I'm not gonna begrudge him a sock, but like, no, you can't. I'd had him the socks. I'm not gonna begrudge him a sock, but like. No, you can't.

I'd had someone on TikTok. I mean, people are always saying things on TikTok to be fair, but it was a while ago. I think I'd said I'd ordered something and it was literally like two plastic cups and two bowls. And they were like, made some ridiculous comment about like me, me like, oh, he's using you. I was like, that probably cost two pounds. But yeah, sure. He's using me for two pounds.

You're right, yeah. But I mean, God, I'm sure if you added it up over the four years, it probably would amount to a decent amount, I would say. How much do you reckon? Oh God, I don't wanna think about it. If you take into account flights as well and trips over there, the ring better be big.

That's all I'm saying. You watching this Danny? Who wants to get a job? I maybe have a candid question. Oh go on. So you've obviously mentioned the firsts. Have you been able to be intimate? How would you show that with a partner in jail? Yeah, you have your ways. Really?

Yeah, you do. Yeah, you basically have phone sex. So they're like conjugal visits. No, you can't like be physically intimate with them. Oh, right. You can find your ways of like making things work for you. Conjugal visits are a thing. I knew it, because I've been watching it in the movie.

What the hell is conjugal verb? Isn't that a verb? It's like a family visit is what they call it now, but conjugal visit would basically be like, you can go on a visit, you can stay for like the weekend and you can do the day. Do you mean stay where? In a cell or? Well, no, no.

I think they've got like a special unit. Oh, right. That they take you to, yeah. It was like, well, I believe, this be fair, if you search it on TikTok, some girls that go on them in different states, they'll like talk about it and stuff. It's quite interesting.

But like, so I've not experienced this because they don't have them in Wisconsin and they like, you also would have to be married in the states that they do have them. So California, for instance, they have conjugal visits. You would have to be married in the States that they do have them. So California, for instance, they have conjugal visits. You would have to be married. It still counts if you got married like whilst they're in there. And I think they've got like a different like little unit

and you can literally put in, you can either bring in like groceries with you or you can like make like an order and they'll like pre-order it for you, so you have to pay. And then I think they give them like a disposable camera. What's it called? Polaroids. Polaroids. Oh, cute.

And they can just like, it's basically stay in like a little tiny like apartment thing for like a weekend, I think. And you can do the deed. You can do the deed, yeah. Do the deed. Yeah, but in his state, you can't, no. Okay.

So, I mean, what we would do is, I mean, I've seen things and he's seen things. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions, and that very same day, two steady hands.

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and policies apply, details at fizz.ca. The big things, yeah. Yeah, Still image or? Moving image. Both. Wow. Yeah. And are people having to monitor that?

Yeah. How does that work? No, there's ways of getting around things. So for instance, if he had like any old pictures or whatever that he could get someone on like do you know I mean like someone to send me like say whoever like is in charge of his phone or whatever you could do those sorts of things. Wait wait your friends your friend is sending your nudes for you? No I'm saying you could do that. Oh you could do that? Is it like a normal thing to kind of do that? For guys in there, yeah. So like, yeah.

So like, say if a guy's gone into prison, like they can't take their phone with them. Like their mum might have their phone. Like they might literally be asking their mum to send their nudes for you. Yeah. It happens. No way.

Surely the mum isn't, yes son, give me one minute. Well, maybe not his mum, but yeah. Maybe if he had like a brother. Maybe his brother, yeah. Yeah. That's all right. Yeah, your mum, yeah, that might be a bit weird. Just coming to my iPhone, not the photos, the firewalls.

Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, you could do that. But yeah, other than that though, like strictly following the rules, you can't, no, you can't be intimate. You can send, you can send pictures, like sexy pictures to a certain point. So the rules are like no nipple showing.

No nipples. No nipples, no bits and pieces, and no bum cheeks showing. Oh, so what's left? Yeah. Pretty much nothing. So you could, I could for instance send, Here is my shadow.

Have fun imagining it. You can send like a picture in like underwear. Okay. From the front, not the back. Oh wow. Those get denied. But yeah, picture in underwear you can send as long as it's not showing too much. Yeah but then as for like the sexting there's not like a prison

officer that's like having to screen it before it gets sent to him? Yes yes with pictures yes yeah someone has to sit there and approve or deny those. So you could literally send anything and people do. You could send all of the things that I've said you can't do. People have tried. You don't worry that these officers keep them. I'm pretty sure they have a catalog with this like a folder that is like.

When it used to be physical pictures that you sent in, yeah, a million percent. Like where's that picture going? You saying you shredding that picture really. Hmm. Bad pocket. But they're now electronic. So I mean, yeah, nothing's to stop anyone doing anything.

So my advice to anyone would be, don't send anything that you're not comfortable with other people seeing. Cause they have to, every picture you send has to get approved. So like if I'm sending him a message, a message would go through like instantly, as long as it's not got any keywords in there that would flag it to go get sent for approval.

But by the way, the word phone is a keyword that would go, like the words that is stupid. So you could be writing a message and then it'll go pending. And you'd be thinking, why is it pending? What have I said? I'm literally talking about going and getting my hair cut. Yeah. Cut.

I can't say cut. Yeah, and so then you think, fuck, let me rephrase, write the whole message again. Yeah, so like a bad word, like willy, would that be pending? No, you can say willy, you just can't say phone or cut. Oh, willy with prison now. The rationale. Wow, but cause you, like Willie, would that be pending? No, you can say Willie, you just can't say phone or cut. With the rationale. The prison issues. But cause you, like in your pictures,

cause you posed in your pictures, like gang signs as well. Yeah, I couldn't, yeah I could do that. That's not gang signs, that's peace, babe. Yeah, but they, they're not peace anymore. Oh yeah, that's in the in-person pictures, they're very funny about any hand signs at all. No peace, like he couldn't, I think on one of our first visits,

he tried to do like that above my head and was told no hand signs. Oh wow. But on the pictures that you send to them, yeah, you can. But if it was like, if it was a literal gang sign, no, you couldn't. But yeah, I could do a peace sign, I think.

Interesting. I'm thinking, now I think, have I sent it? Maybe I have to try and see if they're funny about the peace sign, maybe. Wow. I have to ask, so we're obviously doing our research with your account and Prison Girlfriends as a whole on TikTok.

I guess it was a kind of area of niche tea that there's a bit of beef between Prison Girlfriends or maybe like, do you find yourself being attacked for like promoting the lifestyle online? Cause some people have an issue with like, I don't know, romanticizing, glamorizing you? Yeah, do you know what? Someone actually commented the other day

on something of mine and said like, why are you glamorizing it? And I thought that was the funniest shit ever. Cause I'm like, I've literally been crying on here for the last year saying that he's on lockdown and that I've not been able to see him. Cause I'm like, I've literally been crying on here for the last year saying that he's on lockdown and that I've not been able to see him. I was like, how is that glamorous? Like, I don't know how you've got glamorous from that.

But all like, sometimes I will like post his friends or whatever, cause if they're like, I don't have anyone to speak to, will you see like, if someone would speak to me, people are like, you shouldn't be promoting this. And I'm like, I kind of don't feel like I'm not saying, hey guys, this is a really good life choice and you should also make this life choice.

Like it's just sharing. I'd like to think that most people on TikTok are of an adult age, hopefully, or they can make decisions for themselves. But yeah, there's so much drama within the community as a whole, there's drama between different people in the community, there's drama with everything and everyone, like it really, like prison TikTok is like,

and specifically like prison wife TikTok is like, it's whole, it's like a whole community, it is a whole niche. Obviously. We need a TV show. But yeah, definitely do you get people saying like you're glamorizing it or whatever. I think, I understand where they're coming from

in that like, you know, someone might see that and think, oh, that's worked out really well for them. I'm gonna do that. But I would personally like to think that I show the highs as well as the lows, but at the same time, if someone's just come across my page today, they might not scroll back to see me bawling my eyes out about something that happened a few months ago,

or earlier this year, we went through a breakup for a bit. And that was caused largely because of the lockdown and all of the stuff that had gone on there. And like I said, we butted heads around him wanting to share more things on there that I thought was a really bad idea. It really kind of pushed everything over the edge.

So those sorts of things, like I feel like I'm quite open with most things that I go through. So I would like to think that it's not perceived as glamorous but yeah I guess it can be I think I I think from a personal point of view I've and seeing this growing community of like prison wives prison girlfriends. There's also, at the same time, a massive, I don't know, uptake in like true crime depictions of these horrific criminals. And it's like, you've got Zac Efron playing Ted Bundy,

you've got Evan Peters playing Jeffrey Dahmer, you've got the Menendez brothers in this latest Monsters thing. And I guess they depict these horrific killers in such a beautiful, glamourously wood ways. Like, do you think some people fall into this lifestyle thinking it's gonna be like that? Yeah, I also think that people view a picture of someone

and because they're attractive, think that, oh, that's fine then. I think it's like almost like a weird, pretty privilege thing, isn't it? But like, for instance, if you think about what was the hot inmate, Jeffrey Meeks. Do you remember that? Like no one could tell you what he was in there for,

like, or how long he was in there for. He was just the hot inmate, right? And no one cared. No one gave a damn about what he was in there for because they were like, he's now a model. And so I think it's true, like it does happen and I think that unfortunately there are a lot of guys that take advantage of that situation as well. So yes, absolutely. So those guys, you know, as much as I think the general consensus,

when you first go online and talk about any sort of prison relationship, your comments will be full of, it's jail talk, it's jail talk, it's jail talk. And there is a percentage of that that is absolutely true. And there's people I've seen myself before and I've thought, shit, I think he's using her. Like, but again, it's not for you to, what do you know?

But it could be. And I've seen all of these relationships work out so many different ways. Some have worked out. Some have literally gone on to get married and have kids and been great. Some have got out and done the absolute maddest shit and you've ever seen in your life.

Some have like just ghosted, disappeared, like they never existed and they clearly were using them. And there'll be guys that will be sat in prison, whack their picture and buy whatever upon a pen pal site. And they could have 20, 30, however many girls messaging them, especially if they're attractive. And they could feasibly as well, be getting money from all of those girls.

And guys, it happens to them too. The other way around, women inmates do it. There's male inmates that will also do it to other men. There was a guy, I can't even remember his name, Wade Wilson. I don't know if you've seen any of the Wade Wilson videos. I have heard that name, yeah. It's like a white guy who's like heavily tattooed

all over his face. Not my cup of tea personally, but from what I understand from the internet, they quite think he's attractive. I don't really get it. But he like then on TikTok, there is loads and loads of videos, like of people that he's been,

he's what someone that has taken that and run with it to try and speak to as many people as possible and get what they can. I get what he can out of them. Yeah, and he would be tricking men and women, this guy, he'd be proposing to a guy on the phone then the next minute on to it. And it's people like that that I think

that's why people generalize and think, oh yeah, he's in prison, he's just using you. And realistically, any of them could. Yeah. But I guess if you weren't necessarily looking for something romantically, why didn't you write to women prisoners? I've thought this myself, you know, afterwards.

I probably should have done. I don't know why I didn't. So there was nothing going into it thinking like, I don't know why I didn't. So there was nothing going into it thinking like, I don't know, were you, like I guess, I know you were looking for friends in lockdown, but like, was there something in you was like, maybe I'm dating around a bit or I'm not able to date right now

and it's good to have some company. No, I don't think it was, I genuinely don't feel like it was romantic, but at the same time, I have thought to myself since, like it just never occurred to me to write to a female inmate but I have thought that to myself and my mum also said the same thing. Yeah what do your family and friends think? Family and friends are two very different opinions on it I would say so my friends especially those that are close to me, when I first, like first, first said anything about it,

I think, cause they didn't really know what to think and they kind of just took it with a pinch of salt, I would say. And as time's gone on, a lot of them have either like spoken to him or they've seen things over however long. Yeah. So most of them now, they're pretty sound with it as long as I'm happy and I've got my head screwed on.

That's good. They're fine with it. I think that, you know, if they do have their concerns, it's not anything nasty. It's more from a place of looking out and just wanting to make sure like I'm going into this in the best possible way and that I'm being as sensible as I can. With my family, yeah, definitely like really not on board

with it at all. Yeah, it was quite difficult at first. It really didn't go how I thought it was gonna go with my mum. And for a little while we didn't speak because of it. We're fine now, but she still is not wanting to even sort of give him a chance, doesn't wanna speak to him until he's out

and she can see what he does when he's out. And I think that, I think they've got a plethora of issues with it, to be honest with you, which I get, like, I don't think, I mean, I don't have any kids, but I cannot imagine having a daughter and her coming home and saying, oh, I got engaged to a guy on a pen pal website in prison in America.

I can't, like. Yeah, it's a lot to take in. Yeah, it's a huge, yeah. There's no, I don't even know why I thought that she would be on board with it or whatever. I mean, you can only hope that, I get it, because you hope your parents. I thought she would maybe.

An open heart. See what I saw in him. But we didn't get to that point even for them to have that conversation. And maybe in time that will still happen. But yeah, very much not on board, very much, they want me to be happy and we're family, we love each other, but I don't think they get it

and I don't think they will ever get it. And yeah, it's kind of just at the moment kind of come to that understanding that we're both just, I'm going down that road, they're not really here for it, but they also want the best for me. So. Yeah. Have you been able to meet Danny's family? Yes. Yeah. I have not all

of his family but some of his family yeah. How was that? Fine his mum was really really welcoming to me and really kind I've met her a few times and I've been over there she's been she's been really lovely to me yeah and I've met one of his brothers in person I've spoken to another one of his brothers and I've met one of his brothers in person. I've spoken to another one of his brothers and I've met various other sort of family members whilst I've been there. But yeah, like his mom particularly has been really lovely to me and really nice to me.

Definitely had my back a few times. And yeah, he doesn't have the closest relationship with his family just in general anyway. But it was very important for me that I met her and met some of them. I just think it kind of helped it to be a little bit more normal and not just kind of us two on our own winging it.

It felt like, made it feel a bit more real to actually meet his family and just understand him a little bit more as well, I think. Sounds like you've gone a really nice way about it, especially in the slow burn sense, not wanting to rush over into that relationship as soon as the prospect of him getting out. I guess I have to ask the cynical question

that you said about Wade Wilson. How do you know that he's not also speaking to other people? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a fair question. And I think especially at the beginning of our relationship, he kind of gave me like the toolkit to know if he was doing that, basically. He set, like just gave me the play by play of this is what men will do if they're trying to play you

or they're trying to do this or trying to do that. So one of the things that he'd said was be aware of their time and how they're spending it. So for instance, if you know that at that particular point in time, he could only get the phone like one to two hours a day. If you've suddenly, he's not getting the phone a lot or that one to two hours a day ends up just being

20 minutes, half an hour or whatever. If there's time unaccounted for periodically something going on, or you just don't hear from them, or, you know, more like in a weird way, like you have to know their routine. And for a large amount of time, prior to the lockdown stuff,

they really did have a routine. So it'd be like, he would go to school at this time, he would go to wreck at this time, showers at this time, you'd know roughly what time he would be doing certain things. And so there's that. Largely, if someone is entertaining people, they would have them on their visit lists.

So he sent me copies of his visit list and stuff like that, yeah. So you can see, I mean, I didn't ask for it, he just sent it, but I'm glad that he did. Yeah, just to kind of lay all of his cards on the table. And you can request those as often as you want, by the way, anyone that he did. Yeah, just to kind of lay all of his cards on the table and you can request those as often as you want. By the way, anyone that's watching. He can request them as often as I would like really

to prove that he's not added anyone on since then or had any visits since then. If you're booking like video visits, usually, for instance, at his prison, it was like one a week for us. So if you couldn't suddenly book that one a week, someone's booking it. So yeah, things that people have realized before with stuff like that,

when they've realized their man's visits are suddenly booked up. But yeah, but at the same time, having said all of that, so there are ways that you can suss it out and ways that you can prove, I mean, they can literally request like their call lists. So like basically like a list of every number that they've called if they want to be really like

overzealous and like looking to every person they're calling. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's still ways that they could conceal anything that they're doing at the same time, like he could have people on his tablet messaging him, he could be calling people. Do you ever feel like it stops you from living your life, like waiting on his routine and like, at the moment where he's not got his tablet, not being able to contact him, do you go like, oh, I can't go outside,

I need to be at home for when Danny can speak to me? I think in the beginning, I felt that a little bit more than now, especially for instance, say, he would usually call in the evening, let's say around like six or seven, and say if it got to that time and he hasn't called and I'm thinking, hmm, I wanna go to the gym or I want to go to Tesco's but then I'm thinking I don't

really want to answer the phone in the gym I do want to speak to him I've often like at those times I did sort of I would say kind of prohibited me wanting to do those things whereas now not so much like to be honest with you him not having the tablet at the moment, if anything, I actually feel like, oh, he's probably not gonna call today then. So I've actually got freedom to go out and not worry about the phone.

I think things that you do think about though, are like you, I always sleep with my phone on loud, which I would never, like you couldn't have paid me paid me with my phone on loud. I was going on silent and nothing and no one was being cared about. But yeah, always have my phone on loud because he could just call.

And sometimes it can be an emergency. Sometimes it can be important. Although usually he won't call super late unless it is something important. But yeah, I think having the ability to kind of message as well now, for instance, the messages previously on that old system, they used to take like a day or two to go through.

Whereas now they're more instant. I can literally just say to him like, I'm going to the shop. So like if he calls or if I don't answer or if I'm going on a meeting or whatever, like I don't even have to think about that. I know I've messaged him, even if he tries to recall, he will check his messages and he will see.

So I don't feel like now it does, but I do feel like there has been times when I've thought, oh shit, like I better not do that. Like actually he's meant to be calling in a minute or whatever. I don't feel like in general it stops me living my life though. I think that there's been a few times

with different things where I kind of feel like there have been certain things that I've maybe put on hold a bit, but if everything does work out, it would be worth it. So for instance, I thought about going back to uni and I really want to study psychology because I would love to be a psychologist but then on the flip side, I'm like,

I'm not sure anyone would want maybe to come to me for... So I make really great life choices. But no, I would really like to study it though. But if I was to ever like go down that route professionally the qualifications in England and America are quite different so there kind of wouldn't be much point me getting a qualification here that wouldn't be relevant over there if I was gonna move over so with that I did kind of put that on hold to be honest with

you but at the same time if it didn't work out, my life's not over. I guess just off the back of that, just what is your normal job? I work in recruitment. Interesting, okay. So I work in recruitment. I did my degree in music.

So I worked as a singer and songwriter for a lot of years as well. I still do that a bit on the side. But yeah, the day job is recruitment. Yeah, I think in regards to like, you're talking about your family and friends, like obviously you being here and he's in America, do you ever like get jealous of like your friends

like relationship with their partner, especially like Chris was coming up, you know, there's Valentine's Day and stuff. Like how does, how do you go by coping with that? No, I hear that. I think, so I've just turned 32 and I feel like since I've turned 30, I think I felt that a bit more.

So the first couple of years that we were together, I probably had more friends that were single as well. So I maybe wasn't as mindful of things like that. Whereas now I do feel it a bit more because most of my friends are, well, in fact, I think all of my friends are like in relationships or engaged or married actually now. So those sorts of things you do tend to think,

wish you was here kind of thing. And also things that I have noticed are, for instance, if you've got like two sets of friends that are couples, they'll go on like couples outings together and Obviously, I don't get invited because I have a partner but he's not here Kind of suck a little bit. Yeah, like take like a little Then I'd really get called the crazy one. Oh, she's brought the fucking cowboy car again guys. But those sorts of things, yeah.

I think you do kind of feel like a little bit of a Pang, like when you're attending friends' weddings and your other friends have dates or whatever. Although one of my friends actually did say to me, she was planning a wedding and she'd said, I'm not going to give the others plus ones because you won't be able to bring Danny, I didn't want you to feel left out.

And I went, no, don't do that. I was like, don't do that. Let them bring their partners. Like, but no, so some of my friends are very mindful of that as well. But you do feel it, but at the same time, like, it's my life choice, isn't it? So like, sometimes you do feel a bit but at the same time, like, it's my life choice, isn't it? So like, sometimes you do feel a bit like, if he was here, maybe we'd have

gone on that little outing with them. But it's sometimes just, it's part of the sacrifice you make to be with the person that you want to be with. Oh, interrupting their playlist to talk about Defying Gravity, are we? That's right, Newton. With a Bronco and Bronco Sport, gravity has met its match. Huh, maybe that apple hit me a little harder than I thought. Yeah, you should get that checked out. With standard four by four capability, Broncos keep going up and up.

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Add your teen to your Uber account today. highly rated drivers. Add your team to your Uber account today. That's so interesting. Yeah, that is cute though. Christy, I think you're, Christy's having a bit of trouble in the dating pool. This conversation might inspire a couple of... I know a wonderful website.

I don't think it'll work for me. Why? Do you know why? Do you know why? Do you know why? I like being in people's space, but at the same time I like to let them marinate a bit, but then now you're marinating a bit too long and I can't be with those sentences.

Maybe we could do with someone with like a quick six months or something. Maybe two weeks. You could just have the one visit and done. That's the holiday babe. You sleep on holiday romance. Yeah, I think I could do it. I feel like I'm very much like,

I love that, I think with me it's press 91st. And if we get off on the house on the house on fire, that's amazing. But after a while I was like, okay cool, I need to see you and to know you. I need to spend quality time with my vibe. I hear that. So if I can't have that quality time, it's just like.

Yeah. So you wouldn't do a long distance relationship in general then. Oh hell no. I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like,

I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm's like, it's just like an improvement. Here's the next level. I can see you sometimes. Oh, so interesting. I hear that though. We'll have to find you someone local. Yeah, somebody down the road. Yeah, down the road. That'll work for me.

Yeah. I'm the local prisoner. Local prisoner. We're in Selva 24. Oh, God. That's funny. Thank you so much for being here, Katie. Before you go, have you got any plans for the weekend? Well, I am going to winter wonderland today.

I've never been before. Stay. I'm not good on my own. Okay. I have friends. With that cardboard cut out. I promise. No, I'm meeting some of my prison wife friends, actually.

So I'm meeting three girls that I have met that are all in prison relationships. And I met them through TikTok or through other friends in the community. So we've been friends. I've got, do you know what? I've got quite a few friends now that I would consider like really close mates that I've met through this journey and that I've consider like really close mates

that I've met through this journey and that I've known for years now. So whenever, some of them live in London. So whenever I'm down here, I always do try to have like a little catch up with them. So today we decided we would go to Winter Wonderland together, because let's face it, none of our men are going. So we have to go with each other. Yeah.

And as a support group, that's actually cute. It's like a surprise. That is actually cute though. It Yeah. And like a support group, that's actually cute. It's like a surprise. That is actually cute though. It's a bit like a support group though. So like, it's nice to have those friends. They get it. As well as your regular friends. Yeah.

Because they do get it. Like if your partner goes to segregation or, you know, you're dealing with certain issues with the prisons, although they might not have men in the same prison or the same state even. Yeah. They get it. And you can talk about the prisony stuff and do not look that weirdly for it.

So have you explained Winter Wonderland to Danny? Yes, I have. What do you think? I mean, sometimes he just goes along with things. I was trying to explain Bonfire Night to him, which I have done for the last few years, but he was just like, oh, is it like a carnival? And I was just like, yeah.

Because I'm just like, I was just like, yeah, let's just go with that. Because I can't. It is a weird concept to be fair. Yeah. I was like, well, have you ever tried explaining bonfire night to someone? Basically, we stuffed this guy called Guy,

and then we throw him on a pit of fire. He was like, what? But yeah, I said, went to Wonderland. I was just like, he's just in slides and Christmas. I've never been, I don't know what to expect. But so you'll come home tonight and then text him, just been to Winter Wonderland. But then do you go like, what have you been up to?

What does he say? No, you do sometimes like find yourself saying like, oh, what have you been up to? Like does he say? No, you do sometimes like find yourself saying like, Oh, what have you been up to? Like nothing, I'm just sat in my cell. No, you tend to say this time next year, babe. Yeah, there's a lot of there is a lot of conversation about that. Like, oh, next year, we'll be doing this next year. We'll be doing that. Yeah.

It's Thanksgiving for them soon as well. So next year, we will have our first Thanksgiving and first Christmas together. Oh my God, the first of the first. I know, the first, yeah, the first of the first. But no, I'm really looking forward to doing all of those things. But yeah, he likes, he like, he went to Wonderland, he just wants pictures.

Like, so he can like visually like see the concept. So it will just be a lot of picture taking, I think, and a lot of picture sending. Love it, have the best time. Yes, Thank you, I'm excited. Honestly thank you so much for being so open and very like approachable because I feel like a lot of people there might a lot of taboo around being a prison girlfriend. It's not no it's not the most normal thing and I think especially when you've basically met them whilst they're in prison,

and you've sort of chosen to go down, effectively chosen to go down this path. Like some people, unfortunately, their partners do get sent to prison and they have to deal with that as something that's happened during their relationship. So I think, yeah, you do get sometimes backlash that why would you choose that?

So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, if people wanna find you on your socials and find out a bit more about this whole life, where can they find you? Yes, my TikTok and Instagram handle is at Katie, the next chapter. And I post everything on there more or less

to be honest with you, always vlogging and chatting on TikTok. Also, what an iconic handle because I fucking love that program. Yeah. Thanks. So good. Thank you so much.

And thank you guys. We will see you next week. Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Love that episode!

Yes! Yes! Bye!